Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Eddy - Yes, this was only in the T-4X. Later models added a switch contact to short the key line in SSB so the key could be left plugged in. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com EP Swynar wrote: Hi Garey... REALLY...?! I don't recall seeing that in the manual, but I'll certainly re-check --- that, AND try the rig on phone WITHOUT the key being plugged in... But it STILL sounds kinda strange to me! Hi Hi. ~73~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ * - Original Message - From: Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Drakelist drakelist@zerobeat.net; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW If you have a KEY plugged in, it must be closed (or unplugged) for SSB. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Garey Barrell wrote: Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Does the transmitter work in TUNE mode? 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com EP Swynar wrote: EP Swynar [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Hi Gang, Well, I guess I'm down to having to check the resistances voltages of the different parts of the tubes in audio chain of the T-4X transmitter... ZERO AUDIO from the rig, despite my bypassing of all of the related circuitry going directly to the mic elements with alligator-clipped wires...! Any suggestions from you more seasoned veterans...? ~73~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Dan Ringer [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On 4 Jul 2008 at 7:35, EP Swynar wrote: Hi Dan, Sounds like ...sound advice (pun intended!) to me... I shall do exactly that, probably later to-day. Thanks for the note, my vy ~73!~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ PS: Were these amplified D-104 mics some sorta hang-over from the old ...louder-is-better CB days...?! Let us know how it works out, Eddy. Amplified microphones became popular in the late 70's and early 80's, concurrent with, and perhaps because of the CB Craze: The amateur radio version of all this was that some of the ricebox rigs, needed higher audio input to operate . They started using preamplifiers at the microphone input to get it. Some did it by putting the preamp in the microphone (Icom) others put it in the rig. The CB version was that power mics were good and the louder you were the, uh, louder you were. This was not a completely untrue thought. Good modulation is, . . . good, but easily abused. In any event, the Drake transmitters (and probably transceivers, but I've never use one) responded well to some of the then current microphones, including the unamplified Astatic D-104's. That's what I use on my T4XB, with good results. I use a Heil 781 microphone through a Behringer 802 preamp/mixer.eq on my Icom 740 to get an equivalent result. Clearly Drake had a better idea! Dan, K8WV --- Darrell (Dan) Ringer Attorney at Law ABA Solo Practitioner of the Year Past-President, WV State Bar WV Lawyer of the Year Fellow, WV Bar Foundation 823 Fairmont Road Morgantown, WV 26501 304-292-1999 FAX 304-292-3372 = Watch THE LAW WORKS (http://www.thelawworks.org) on WV Public Television, Thursdays at 8:30 p.m. = -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
I believe the amplifier in the D-104 was to allow the mic to be used with radios with low impedance mic inputs, one mic fits all. The amp had a lot of gain. I think the CB'ers just cashed in on that fact which made the D-104 popular with them ... disable the ALC, crank the mic gain up, grab a beer and cigarette, and yelling from 10 feet across the room splatter up and down 5 channels ... loud and proud. I have several D-104's and the ones with amps have the amp bypassed, they are not required. 73, Gary
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:44:50 -0400, Dan Ringer wrote: Amplified microphones became popular in the late 70's and early 80's, concurrent with, and perhaps because of the CB Craze: In the case of the D104, the amplifier is an imedance matching buffer with some gain. This was done to allow the microphone to be used with the low impedance input of solid state CB rigs. The amateur radio version of all this was that some of the ricebox rigs, needed higher audio input to operate . They started using preamplifiers at the microphone input to get it. Some did it by putting the preamp in the microphone (Icom) others put it in the rig. This was also a trend in the commercial radio market. I'm not sure why they went that way, but perhaps because it made dynamic mics interchangable with electret. There's also the possibility that they did it because it's easier to keep induced noise out of the mic cord when the mic circuit is run at a higher lever. I've got some old GE Phoenix radios that have a dual input, pre-amped and non-preamped. The CB version was that power mics were good and the louder you were the, uh, louder you were. This was not a completely untrue thought. Good modulation is, . . . good, but easily abused. CB ops tend to like to keep the mic sitting on the table and just reach over and push the button. Of course, this creates a signal-to-noise ratio issue. You could always tell what they were watching on TV, how many dogs they had, whether or not the wife and kids were home, etc. You were a big dog if people could hear your click-click rotor box turning while your were talking. The effect is even worse with compressor mics like some of the Turner models. And then, there's the concept of swing - turn the mic up and get more swing - the more the better, right? Splatter? What's that? Clearly Drake had a better idea! Was there ever any doubt? :) 73 -Jim NU0C -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:02:59 -0400, Gary Poland wrote: I believe the amplifier in the D-104 was to allow the mic to be used with radios with low impedance mic inputs, one mic fits all. The amp had a lot of gain. I think the CB'ers just cashed in on that fact which made the D-104 popular with them ... disable the ALC, crank the mic gain up, grab a beer and cigarette, and yelling from 10 feet across the room splatter up and down 5 channels ... loud and proud. I have several D-104's and the ones with amps have the amp bypassed, they are not required. Gee, Gary, I think I just said that... :) 73 -Jim -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
The D 104 I use currently works well with the 4 C line and the TR-7. Like the other guys, I rewired the mic and bypassed the preamp in the base of the stand. The reports are usually better than the Shure 444. 73 de W4DL Mike ex AK7P * WA9SWF * WN9SWF
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Eddy - The mic amplifier came about primarily because of the solid-state transmitter. The D-104 and other similar mic's were designed to drive very high input impedance (i.e., tube) mic amplifiers, typically 500 k ohms. These mics generated several volts of audio at these impedance levels with no additional amplification. Solid state amps, on the other hand, had input impedances of 500 ohms or so, and these mics were unable to drive them. So some mic manufacturers installed amplifiers, not so much for gain, but to allow them to drive low impedance loads. A secondary effect was that the bare mic's frequency response was highly dependent upon the actual load impedance, and of course the internal amplifier was able to reflect an ideal load for the mic element. So the amplifier was a good solution all around. The gain control allowed the amplified mic to drive BOTH the low impedance radios at the relatively low level needed (typically hundreds of millivolts) AND the high impedance radios at the high level needed (typically a volt or more) simply by adjusting the gain. The constant input impedance of the internal preamp allowed the mic element itself to have a constant frequency response regardless of the radio it was connected to. You can either use the amplifier or not, as long as you adjust the preamp control correctly. Bypassing the preamp completely is one option, and the input impedance of the T-4X results in a good frequency response from the D-104. Depending upon your voice characteristics, you might want to add a resistor in series with the mic input to tailor the response somewhat. If you leave the preamp in place, you can set the mic gain appropriately by setting the GAIN control on the T-4X to about 10-11 o'clock, and then adjusting the preamp control so that normal speech kicks the Plate meter to about 100 - 150 mA on peaks. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Hi Dan, Sounds like ...sound advice (pun intended!) to me... I shall do exactly that, probably later to-day. Thanks for the note, my vy ~73!~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ PS: Were these amplified D-104 mics some sorta hang-over from the old ...louder-is-better CB days...?! -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Guess we think alike huh? HI HI
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Hi All; From what I have seen know of, the Astatic G push-to-talk stand was un-amplified. The T-UG8 PTT Stand was amplified but for hi-Z inputs. The T-UG9 PTT stand was amplified and universal, Hi-Z es Lo-Z. All stands could be mounted with a D-104 Xtal hi-z crystal mike head or a 10D dynamic or 10C Crystal or Ceramic, I forget which now. All good mikes, I used just a D-104 head on a Astatic stand(not PTT either) on my AM G-28 Gonset, works great! 73... Rich WA2RQY Thanks es 73Rich WA2RQY/4 (1961) WA2RQY's confusion Radio Web-Page Http://members.aol.com/rlucch2098/index.html Ham Radio Manuals: http://myradioroom.com/hamradiomanuals.html Ol' Stuff Web-Page http://myradioroom.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keep those heaters on
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Steve Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Most of the Motorola radios I worked on in the factory and in field service had amplified mics, including the the Mocat CB radios. I tend to use the non-amplified D104 mics with my older vacuum state rigs, and the amplified ones with the newer Ten Tecs. Either way, they work great. Of course, the amplifiers need to be wired correctly. I was the tech there at Schaumburg who tested the first 144 amplified CB mics sent up from the Puerto Rico plant. Not one of them worked. I guess you could really call that gross ineptitude! I also have good results with the Shure 444 mics, and those have a switch on the bottom to set the output impedance. Less trouble than the Astatic preamp. Steve WA9JML -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:06:54 -0500, Steve Berg wrote: I also have good results with the Shure 444 mics, and those have a switch on the bottom to set the output impedance. Less trouble than the Astatic preamp The 444D has the switch. The 444 (no D) is - usually - high impedance only. I've got both variants. The black 444D is a nice match to the TR7, but I've been told the D104 sounds better. I'm running it on the Hi-Z input, which already has a 470K resistor, so combined with the added 470K in the mic the D104 element is loaded by close to a meg. 73 -Jim NU0C -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:47:23 -0400, Gary Poland wrote: Guess we think alike huh? HI HI Great minds. -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Seems to be a consensus :-) 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Gary Poland wrote: Guess we think alike huh? HI HI -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:48:09 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The T-UG8 PTT Stand was amplified but for hi-Z inputs. The T-UG9 PTT stand was amplified and universal, Hi-Z es Lo-Z. From what I've read, the amplifier was essentially the same. The UG9 stand added extra switch contacts and wires in the mic cable for those fancy CB rigs with bizarre switching. 73 -Jim NU0C -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Has anyone else noticed the irony of a thread titled Drake Twins on CW turning to a discussion of microphones? 73 es a happy 4th to all! Lee WB6SSW ** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507)
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Steve Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Hey, those keys and bugs need to cool off now and then. Steve WA9JML [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone else noticed the irony of a thread titled Drake Twins on CW turning to a discussion of microphones? 73 es a happy 4th to all! Lee WB6SSW ** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut000507) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
EP Swynar [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Hi Gang, Well, I guess I'm down to having to check the resistances voltages of the different parts of the tubes in audio chain of the T-4X transmitter... ZERO AUDIO from the rig, despite my bypassing of all of the related circuitry going directly to the mic elements with alligator-clipped wires...! Any suggestions from you more seasoned veterans...? ~73~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ * - Original Message - From: Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: drakelist@zerobeat.net Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:45:00 -0400, Dan Ringer wrote: Eddy, I suggest simply bypassing the amp on the D104. The T4Xany doesn't need it. I use an unamplified D104 and get great audio reports on my T4XB. I agree completely. Take that horrid amp out and nail it to the wall, put a 470K resistor in series with the audio lead, and that D104 will sound wonderful. 73 -Jim NU0C -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net -- -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Garey Barrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Does the transmitter work in TUNE mode? 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 4-B, C-Line TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com EP Swynar wrote: EP Swynar [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Hi Gang, Well, I guess I'm down to having to check the resistances voltages of the different parts of the tubes in audio chain of the T-4X transmitter... ZERO AUDIO from the rig, despite my bypassing of all of the related circuitry going directly to the mic elements with alligator-clipped wires...! Any suggestions from you more seasoned veterans...? ~73~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
john [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Hi Eddy, Does the microphone work (check output with a scope) John K5MO -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
[drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Good Day All, I had a real treat here the past few days, setting up operating my T-4X transmitter R-4 receiver beneath the gazebo in the backyard, working Field Day Canada Day out in the fresh air on CW... What a wonderful pair of rigs for CW --- they really complement each other, and in more ways than one! I'd never had the T-4X even on before, until this past weekend (I acquired both rigs last December), and was quite impressed with it... I had no luck getting the rig to operate on 'phone, though...I guess I'll have to play around with the wires coming out the base of the amplified D-104 some more, before I try to get into the rig itself (I just HATE those amplified mics!). The PTT seems to work A-OK --- there's just no audio! Anyway, so far, as a CW station, all I have to say (again!) is, WHERE HAVE THESE RIGS BEEN ALL OF MY LIFE...?! Hi Hi. They're wonderful... ~73~ Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Dan Ringer [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On 3 Jul 2008 at 15:24, EP Swynar wrote: What a wonderful pair of rigs for CW --- they really complement each other, and in more ways than one! I'd never had the T-4X even on before,until this past weekend (I acquired both rigs last December), and was quite impressed with it... I had no luck getting the rig to operate on 'phone, though...I guess I'll have to play around with the wires coming out the base of the amplified D-104 some more, before I try to get into the rig itself (I just HATE those amplified mics!). The PTT seems to work A-OK --- there's just no audio! Eddy, I suggest simply bypassing the amp on the D104. The T4Xany doesn't need it. I use an unamplified D104 and get great audio reports on my T4XB. Dan, K8WV --- Darrell (Dan) Ringer Attorney at Law ABA Solo Practitioner of the Year Past-President, WV State Bar WV Lawyer of the Year Fellow, WV Bar Foundation 823 Fairmont Road Morgantown, WV 26501 304-292-1999 FAX 304-292-3372 = Watch THE LAW WORKS (http://www.thelawworks.org) on WV Public Television, Thursdays at 8:30 p.m. = -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:45:00 -0400, Dan Ringer wrote: Eddy, I suggest simply bypassing the amp on the D104. The T4Xany doesn't need it. I use an unamplified D104 and get great audio reports on my T4XB. I agree completely. Take that horrid amp out and nail it to the wall, put a 470K resistor in series with the audio lead, and that D104 will sound wonderful. 73 -Jim NU0C -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
In a message dated 7/3/2008 7:33:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- Dan Ringer wrote: Eddy, I suggest simply bypassing the amp on the D104. The T4Xany doesn't need it. I use an unamplified D104 and get great audio reports on my T4XB. Besides, them amplified D104's were made with CB'ers in mind at the time. Ham radio rigs, they are not needed. Ron wb1hga Well Maybe but I bought the Preamp from Astatic that went into the base of a G stand(D-104 is head alone), had to drill a few holes, one for access to the gain pot another on top for on/off switch, best $7.00 I ever spent. My New twins(1977) seemed to need more audio for some reason. Now I could talk a bit lower to accomplish the same. Too high a setting causes more background noise, not good, hi! If you got an amplified base, give it a try! GL es 73.. Rich WA2RQY/4
Re: [drakelist] Drake Twins On CW
Jim Shorney [EMAIL PROTECTED] made an utterance to the drakelist gang -- On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 21:13:13 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well Maybe but I bought the Preamp from Astatic Heck, I would have given you one if you really wanted it... :) My New twins(1977) seemed to need more audio for some reason. I haven't tried a D104 on the twins yet, but every other rig I've tried one on has not needed the amp. Currently I'm using a Golden Eagle version on the TR7, sans preamp. plus 470K resistor. Plenty of audio. I'll probably move the Golden Eagle over to the HyGain 3750, as it's a better style match. Keeping my eyes open for a Silver Eagle for the TR7. Still using Shure 444s on the C-Line and TR6. Although I've got an EV RE-20 I'm gonna hook up to something... Since I've got plenty of standard T-UG8/D104 around here, I'll probably try one on the twins someday. Without the amp, of couse. 73 -Jim NU0C -- Submissions:drakelist@zerobeat.net Unsubscribe:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - unsubscribe drakelist in body Hopelessly Lost:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - help in body of message Zerobeat Web Page: www.zerobeat.net - sponsored by www.tlchost.net --
