Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Ian White]

In the next
>code release I'll add a feature to force the SWR to read 1:1 when
>forward power is close to zero.
>
>Alan N1AL


If no valid result is possible, then "1:1" would be the *worst* possible
choice! Simply blank the display or show "N/A".  

Most QRPers understand that primitive SWR meters may display "zero
reflected power" due to the diode threshold voltage, but we'd hope for
the P3 to be a little smarter.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[George Danner]

Phil - just remount them upside down. It will run out of it's own accord!

73 George AI4VZ

-Original Message- 
From: Phil Hystad

Steve — Sounds like that is indeed what is happening.  I may look into 
drilling some holes in the capacitors so the charge will leak out. :-)

73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Phil Hystad]

Steve — Sounds like that is indeed what is happening.  I may look into drilling 
some holes in the capacitors so the charge will leak out. :-)

73, phil, K7PEH


> On Sep 29, 2015, at 3:28 PM, Steve Glickstein  wrote:
> 
> I notice this too with my K3and TXMon.  It appears to occur in the Test Mode 
> after I've previously used the transmitter.  My guess is that there may be a 
> capacitor or two holding some voltagefrom the prior real transmission. If I 
> use the test mode first, before any transmissions, the PEP/SWR indicators on 
> the TXMon are both zero.
> 
> 73, Steve W4FMD
> 
> 
> On 9/28/2015 9:40 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> I did something tonight I have not done before since having my P3 TX Monitor 
>> in place.  I was testing the adjustment on my paddle in TX Test Mode and I 
>> noticed that the P3 acted as normal — that is, no signal — with the 
>> exception of the bar graph for SWR.  The bar graph registered an SWR of 3:1 
>> (normally about 1.1:1) in response to key down while in Test Mode.  Yet, the 
>> bar graph acts normally showing the correct SWR in TX mode (not test).
>> 
>> I would expect that the P3 would not register anything while in Test Mode TX 
>> — just like before hooking up the TX Monitor.
>> 
>> So, this is a little anomaly that others see and is this normal behavior?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Steve Glickstein]

I notice this too with my K3and TXMon.  It appears to occur in the Test 
Mode after I've previously used the transmitter.  My guess is that there 
may be a capacitor or two holding some voltagefrom the prior real 
transmission. If I use the test mode first, before any transmissions, 
the PEP/SWR indicators on the TXMon are both zero.


73, Steve W4FMD


On 9/28/2015 9:40 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

I did something tonight I have not done before since having my P3 TX Monitor in 
place.  I was testing the adjustment on my paddle in TX Test Mode and I noticed 
that the P3 acted as normal — that is, no signal — with the exception of the 
bar graph for SWR.  The bar graph registered an SWR of 3:1 (normally about 
1.1:1) in response to key down while in Test Mode.  Yet, the bar graph acts 
normally showing the correct SWR in TX mode (not test).

I would expect that the P3 would not register anything while in Test Mode TX — 
just like before hooking up the TX Monitor.

So, this is a little anomaly that others see and is this normal behavior?

Thanks,
73, phil, K7PEH

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Alan]

On 09/29/2015 04:26 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:


The
bar graph registered an SWR of 3:1 (normally about 1.1:1) in
response to key down while in Test Mode.  Yet, the bar graph acts
normally showing the correct SWR in TX mode (not test).


In test mode there is no power out of the K3.  The SWR calculation gets 
confused when both forward and reflected power are zero.  In the next 
code release I'll add a feature to force the SWR to read 1:1 when 
forward power is close to zero.


Alan N1AL
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

At what power level do you see or measure this signal?  I don't seem to 
see any power output in TEST mode during transmit.


73
Bob, K4TAX

On 9/29/2015 12:23 PM, Dan Atchison wrote:

Phil:

Do you have a K3S by any chance.  My K3S actually transmits a signal 
when in TEST mode!  When I told Elecraft about it, they shrugged their 
heads like it can't be.


The TX power appears both on my P3 (with TX MON showing both PEP and 
SWR), and also my LP-100A wattmeter.  It's only very, very short  
bursts of my CW sent signal, but it's there.  My K3 does not do this.


As mentioned, I see this with TEST on and either VOX on or off. Have 
never noticed on sideband.





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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

OK Phil.  I supposed I was confused where you said " My K3S actually 
transmits a signal when in TEST mode!"   I didn't find any measurable 
output when in TEST mode using my K3S.


Thanks.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 9/29/2015 12:52 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

In Test mode there is no signal output at all.  That is the reason for Test 
Mode.  So, on the P3, you don’t see a signal and you don’t see signal power 
level.  But, the fact that the SWR bar chart shows something is, to me, an 
anomaly.

73, phil



>On Sep 29, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX  wrote:
>
>At what power level do you see or measure this signal?  I don't seem to see 
any power output in TEST mode during transmit.
>
>73
>Bob, K4TAX
>
>On 9/29/2015 12:23 PM, Dan Atchison wrote:

>>Phil:
>>
>>Do you have a K3S by any chance.  My K3S actually transmits a signal when in 
TEST mode!  When I told Elecraft about it, they shrugged their heads like it can't be.
>>
>>The TX power appears both on my P3 (with TX MON showing both PEP and SWR), 
and also my LP-100A wattmeter.  It's only very, very short  bursts of my CW sent 
signal, but it's there.  My K3 does not do this.
>>
>>As mentioned, I see this with TEST on and either VOX on or off. Have never 
noticed on sideband.



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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Dan Atchison]

Phil:

Do you have a K3S by any chance.  My K3S actually transmits a signal 
when in TEST mode!  When I told Elecraft about it, they shrugged their 
heads like it can't be.


The TX power appears both on my P3 (with TX MON showing both PEP and 
SWR), and also my LP-100A wattmeter.  It's only very, very short  bursts 
of my CW sent signal, but it's there.  My K3 does not do this.


As mentioned, I see this with TEST on and either VOX on or off. Have 
never noticed on sideband.



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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Phil Hystad]

In Test mode there is no signal output at all.  That is the reason for Test 
Mode.  So, on the P3, you don’t see a signal and you don’t see signal power 
level.  But, the fact that the SWR bar chart shows something is, to me, an 
anomaly.

73, phil


> On Sep 29, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> At what power level do you see or measure this signal?  I don't seem to see 
> any power output in TEST mode during transmit.
> 
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> On 9/29/2015 12:23 PM, Dan Atchison wrote:
>> Phil:
>> 
>> Do you have a K3S by any chance.  My K3S actually transmits a signal when in 
>> TEST mode!  When I told Elecraft about it, they shrugged their heads like it 
>> can't be.
>> 
>> The TX power appears both on my P3 (with TX MON showing both PEP and SWR), 
>> and also my LP-100A wattmeter.  It's only very, very short  bursts of my CW 
>> sent signal, but it's there.  My K3 does not do this.
>> 
>> As mentioned, I see this with TEST on and either VOX on or off. Have never 
>> noticed on sideband.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Phil Hystad]

Actually, I don’t have a K3S.  Though, I do see another message quoted below 
from Dan Atchison who mentions a K3S transmitting a signal in Test mode.  No 
signal on a K3 though.

73, phil


> On Sep 29, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> OK Phil.  I supposed I was confused where you said " My K3S actually 
> transmits a signal when in TEST mode!"   I didn't find any measurable output 
> when in TEST mode using my K3S.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> On 9/29/2015 12:52 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> In Test mode there is no signal output at all.  That is the reason for Test 
>> Mode.  So, on the P3, you don’t see a signal and you don’t see signal power 
>> level.  But, the fact that the SWR bar chart shows something is, to me, an 
>> anomaly.
>> 
>> 73, phil
>> 
>> 
>>> >On Sep 29, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX  
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >At what power level do you see or measure this signal?  I don't seem to 
>>> >see any power output in TEST mode during transmit.
>>> >
>>> >73
>>> >Bob, K4TAX
>>> >
>>> >On 9/29/2015 12:23 PM, Dan Atchison wrote:
 >>Phil:
 >>
 >>Do you have a K3S by any chance.  My K3S actually transmits a signal 
 >>when in TEST mode!  When I told Elecraft about it, they shrugged their 
 >>heads like it can't be.
 >>
 >>The TX power appears both on my P3 (with TX MON showing both PEP and 
 >>SWR), and also my LP-100A wattmeter.  It's only very, very short  bursts 
 >>of my CW sent signal, but it's there.  My K3 does not do this.
 >>
 >>As mentioned, I see this with TEST on and either VOX on or off. Have 
 >>never noticed on sideband.
> 
> 

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[Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Dan Atchison]

To answer a few questions, I'll try to be as definitive as possible.

I see, according to both the P3 TX Mon AND the LP-100A up to about 0.4 
watts output from the K3S on CW mode in TEST.  The sensors for both the 
TX Mon and the LP-100A are in series, the TX Mon immediately after the 
K3S and the LP-100A through a short piece of RG-400.  If I substitute 
the K3 for the K3S, there is no indication on either "wattmeter."  So 
methinks that this proves an issue with the K3S.


Also what is interesting is if I monitor the K3S signal (while in TEST 
mode) on the K3, the signal level pins the meter on the K3. Reverse (the 
K3 transmitting in TEST MODE to the K3S), it's about S7.  Not a great 
test, but significant I think. It's almost like a short spike of power 
is output (as indicated on the P3 TX Mon and LP-100A).  I contacted a 
local ham but he cannot hear any transmitted signal (he's about 7 air 
miles away), but methinks it's a spike of such short duration or 
generation that he wouldn't.


I am also seeing an anomaly with the K3S that I have yet to fully 
understand and as far as I can tell happens only on 80M.


I run SO2R and have bandpass filters between the K3S and K3 and their 
respective amplifiers.  On 80M, and according to the internal K3S 
wattmeter, I have a 1:1 swr going into the bandpass filter but as soon 
as the rig output is set to above 12 watts, i.e. the KPA3A kicks in, the 
SWR immediately rises to 5:1.  The SWR remains high until I increase the 
power up to about an indicated 45 W output (by virtue of the power 
control on the K3S), then the SWR immediately reduces back to 1:1 and 
remains there to max power output.  Of course the "real" power output is 
cut back until the SWR goes down.  So, you say, it's the bandpass 
filter.  Perhaps, but I have swapped bandpass filters and the problem 
remains with the K3S.  I have also eliminated the amplifiers by 
installing a dummy load in their place.  I did this to make sure the 
KPA3A was not transmitting a dirty signal on some other frequency 
against a resonant 80M antenna.  Same issue.  There are no issues with 
the K3 in line - it's only the K3S.


I realize, because the K3S has the new KAT3A with a bypass relay as well 
as the upgraded KPA3A, that things are different than the K3, but 
still???  Some kind of matching anomaly?


I plan on sending the K3S back to Elecraft to witness this (and yes, I 
will include the bandpass filter), but rumor has it that their repair 
center is backlogged and it's too close to contest season to risk being 
without.  My K3S works fine except for these problems.


73,
Dan


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Wes (N7WS)]

If I had to guess, which is exactly what I'm doing, I think either the LPA or 
the HPA is generating a spurious signal and it sees a mismatch into your BPF.  I 
would try to get it into this state and use your other radio to sniff around.



On 9/29/2015 11:59 AM, Dan Atchison wrote:

To answer a few questions, I'll try to be as definitive as possible.

I see, according to both the P3 TX Mon AND the LP-100A up to about 0.4 watts 
output from the K3S on CW mode in TEST.  The sensors for both the TX Mon and 
the LP-100A are in series, the TX Mon immediately after the K3S and the 
LP-100A through a short piece of RG-400.  If I substitute the K3 for the K3S, 
there is no indication on either "wattmeter."  So methinks that this proves an 
issue with the K3S.


Also what is interesting is if I monitor the K3S signal (while in TEST mode) 
on the K3, the signal level pins the meter on the K3. Reverse (the K3 
transmitting in TEST MODE to the K3S), it's about S7.  Not a great test, but 
significant I think. It's almost like a short spike of power is output (as 
indicated on the P3 TX Mon and LP-100A).  I contacted a local ham but he 
cannot hear any transmitted signal (he's about 7 air miles away), but methinks 
it's a spike of such short duration or generation that he wouldn't.


I am also seeing an anomaly with the K3S that I have yet to fully understand 
and as far as I can tell happens only on 80M.


I run SO2R and have bandpass filters between the K3S and K3 and their 
respective amplifiers.  On 80M, and according to the internal K3S wattmeter, I 
have a 1:1 swr going into the bandpass filter but as soon as the rig output is 
set to above 12 watts, i.e. the KPA3A kicks in, the SWR immediately rises to 
5:1.  The SWR remains high until I increase the power up to about an indicated 
45 W output (by virtue of the power control on the K3S), then the SWR 
immediately reduces back to 1:1 and remains there to max power output.  Of 
course the "real" power output is cut back until the SWR goes down.  So, you 
say, it's the bandpass filter. Perhaps, but I have swapped bandpass filters 
and the problem remains with the K3S.  I have also eliminated the amplifiers 
by installing a dummy load in their place.  I did this to make sure the KPA3A 
was not transmitting a dirty signal on some other frequency against a resonant 
80M antenna.  Same issue.  There are no issues with the K3 in line - it's only 
the K3S.


I realize, because the K3S has the new KAT3A with a bypass relay as well as 
the upgraded KPA3A, that things are different than the K3, but still???  Some 
kind of matching anomaly?


I plan on sending the K3S back to Elecraft to witness this (and yes, I will 
include the bandpass filter), but rumor has it that their repair center is 
backlogged and it's too close to contest season to risk being without.  My K3S 
works fine except for these problems.


73,
Dan



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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Wayne Burdick]

Dan,

This is very odd behavior. There should be no output in TEST mode, and no 
contribution to SWR from the KAT3A. The two problems may be related.

I hope you can return the rig to us for analysis. It will of course be covered 
under warranty.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Sep 29, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Dan Atchison  wrote:

> To answer a few questions, I'll try to be as definitive as possible.


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Merv Schweigert]

Mine registers anything it wants in non transmit mode,  many times pegs 
the swr chart, other

times 2 or 3 to 1..  normal from what I see.

Merv K9FD/KH6   WH2XCR

I did something tonight I have not done before since having my P3 TX Monitor in 
place.  I was testing the adjustment on my paddle in TX Test Mode and I noticed 
that the P3 acted as normal — that is, no signal — with the exception of the 
bar graph for SWR.  The bar graph registered an SWR of 3:1 (normally about 
1.1:1) in response to key down while in Test Mode.  Yet, the bar graph acts 
normally showing the correct SWR in TX mode (not test).

I would expect that the P3 would not register anything while in Test Mode TX — 
just like before hooking up the TX Monitor.

So, this is a little anomaly that others see and is this normal behavior?

Thanks,
73, phil, K7PEH

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[Elecraft] [K3] Test Mode TX and TX Monitor?

[Phil Hystad]

I did something tonight I have not done before since having my P3 TX Monitor in 
place.  I was testing the adjustment on my paddle in TX Test Mode and I noticed 
that the P3 acted as normal — that is, no signal — with the exception of the 
bar graph for SWR.  The bar graph registered an SWR of 3:1 (normally about 
1.1:1) in response to key down while in Test Mode.  Yet, the bar graph acts 
normally showing the correct SWR in TX mode (not test).

I would expect that the P3 would not register anything while in Test Mode TX — 
just like before hooking up the TX Monitor.

So, this is a little anomaly that others see and is this normal behavior?

Thanks,
73, phil, K7PEH

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