Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: Your expectations are unreasonable -- 20 ft is WAY too close, even for two great rigs on the same band at 500W. We run K3s to KPA500s on the same band for CQP (Cal QSO Party) county expeditions and use 250 ft spacing with antennas carefully located to be essentially colinear. 150 ft is not enough. I was at a FD site where we had significant interstation interference, and I think it was a combination of just too close and a dirty transmitter (IC7200), with the other station being a K3 with new synths. We didn't measure the antenna coupling, and I made a mental note to do that next time. What we had was 40m 2-el wire beam 20/15/10 wire beam G5RV The two beams had ends separated by only a few meters, but were almost collinear. The G5RV was parallel (in a bad way) about 30m away, but on the back side of the beams. Our troubles seemed worst on 20m. I know the spacing is not reasonable; past FDs at the same site/club had used KX3s or K2s QRP, and things were mostly ok then. So, I wonder: When you used the 250 ft spacing (and in the nulls), what kind of measured coupling did you see? What would people expect for power loss between the G5RV and the beam? Based on other comments, distance, and the beam heading the wrong way, I'd guess about 50 dB. I guess another question is, given a pair of K3-newsynth transceivers, what level of antenna isolation is necessary to bring the wideband noise from reciprocal mixing and transmit noise down to say the S1 level? Assume S1 is -121 dBm (from -73 and 8 units). Or really lets say that's the level we care about. TX at 100W is +50 dBm. If one uses -128 dBC for transmit noise, and assumes some improvement from the 108 dB of RMDR (taking the average of ARRL/sherweng) at perhaps 118 dB, then we need 53 dB of isolation. The IC-7200 has transmit noise at -94 dBC, so I'd expect 24 dB worse, which is S5 noise instead of S1 imposed on a perfect other receiver. I am curious if my math is confused, and how real measurements and experiences compare. It seems that reviews should set up 2 of the radio under test with controlled isolation and see how in-band artifacts are. And also test against a K3s both ways. 73 de n1dam __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Yes 50dB is about 30dB too high... Simple modelling says it all... Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ Owner - Operator Big Signal Ranch - K9ZC Staunton, Illinois Owner - Operator Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I. Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com email: b...@wjschmidt.com -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV Sent: Friday, July 03, 2015 9:21 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) What would people expect for power loss between the G5RV and the beam? Based on other comments, distance, and the beam heading the wrong way, I'd guess about 50 dB. 50 dB is probably optimistic. The equation for free space path loss (coupling between antennas) is -40 dB + antenna gain - a wavelength dependent factor. However, that only holds in the far field (30m is near field for anything below 144 MHz). My hunch is that the isolation between two resonant antennas in the near field will be something less than 30 dB unless they are [reasonably] collinear. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-03 10:03 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: Your expectations are unreasonable -- 20 ft is WAY too close, even for two great rigs on the same band at 500W. We run K3s to KPA500s on the same band for CQP (Cal QSO Party) county expeditions and use 250 ft spacing with antennas carefully located to be essentially colinear. 150 ft is not enough. I was at a FD site where we had significant interstation interference, and I think it was a combination of just too close and a dirty transmitter (IC7200), with the other station being a K3 with new synths. We didn't measure the antenna coupling, and I made a mental note to do that next time. What we had was 40m 2-el wire beam 20/15/10 wire beam G5RV The two beams had ends separated by only a few meters, but were almost collinear. The G5RV was parallel (in a bad way) about 30m away, but on the back side of the beams. Our troubles seemed worst on 20m. I know the spacing is not reasonable; past FDs at the same site/club had used KX3s or K2s QRP, and things were mostly ok then. So, I wonder: When you used the 250 ft spacing (and in the nulls), what kind of measured coupling did you see? What would people expect for power loss between the G5RV and the beam? Based on other comments, distance, and the beam heading the wrong way, I'd guess about 50 dB. I guess another question is, given a pair of K3-newsynth transceivers, what level of antenna isolation is necessary to bring the wideband noise from reciprocal mixing and transmit noise down to say the S1 level? Assume S1 is -121 dBm (from -73 and 8 units). Or really lets say that's the level we care about. TX at 100W is +50 dBm. If one uses -128 dBC for transmit noise, and assumes some improvement from the 108 dB of RMDR (taking the average of ARRL/sherweng) at perhaps 118 dB, then we need 53 dB of isolation. The IC-7200 has transmit noise at -94 dBC, so I'd expect 24 dB worse, which is S5 noise instead of S1 imposed on a perfect other receiver. I am curious if my math is confused, and how real measurements and experiences compare. It seems that reviews should set up 2 of the radio under test with controlled isolation and see how in-band artifacts are. And also test against a K3s both ways. 73 de n1dam __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to b...@wjschmidt.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
What would people expect for power loss between the G5RV and the beam? Based on other comments, distance, and the beam heading the wrong way, I'd guess about 50 dB. 50 dB is probably optimistic. The equation for free space path loss (coupling between antennas) is -40 dB + antenna gain - a wavelength dependent factor. However, that only holds in the far field (30m is near field for anything below 144 MHz). My hunch is that the isolation between two resonant antennas in the near field will be something less than 30 dB unless they are [reasonably] collinear. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-03 10:03 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com writes: Your expectations are unreasonable -- 20 ft is WAY too close, even for two great rigs on the same band at 500W. We run K3s to KPA500s on the same band for CQP (Cal QSO Party) county expeditions and use 250 ft spacing with antennas carefully located to be essentially colinear. 150 ft is not enough. I was at a FD site where we had significant interstation interference, and I think it was a combination of just too close and a dirty transmitter (IC7200), with the other station being a K3 with new synths. We didn't measure the antenna coupling, and I made a mental note to do that next time. What we had was 40m 2-el wire beam 20/15/10 wire beam G5RV The two beams had ends separated by only a few meters, but were almost collinear. The G5RV was parallel (in a bad way) about 30m away, but on the back side of the beams. Our troubles seemed worst on 20m. I know the spacing is not reasonable; past FDs at the same site/club had used KX3s or K2s QRP, and things were mostly ok then. So, I wonder: When you used the 250 ft spacing (and in the nulls), what kind of measured coupling did you see? What would people expect for power loss between the G5RV and the beam? Based on other comments, distance, and the beam heading the wrong way, I'd guess about 50 dB. I guess another question is, given a pair of K3-newsynth transceivers, what level of antenna isolation is necessary to bring the wideband noise from reciprocal mixing and transmit noise down to say the S1 level? Assume S1 is -121 dBm (from -73 and 8 units). Or really lets say that's the level we care about. TX at 100W is +50 dBm. If one uses -128 dBC for transmit noise, and assumes some improvement from the 108 dB of RMDR (taking the average of ARRL/sherweng) at perhaps 118 dB, then we need 53 dB of isolation. The IC-7200 has transmit noise at -94 dBC, so I'd expect 24 dB worse, which is S5 noise instead of S1 imposed on a perfect other receiver. I am curious if my math is confused, and how real measurements and experiences compare. It seems that reviews should set up 2 of the radio under test with controlled isolation and see how in-band artifacts are. And also test against a K3s both ways. 73 de n1dam __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
I'm thinking this was a late April fools gotcha. 73, Gary KA1J On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote: KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On Fri,7/3/2015 7:03 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: So, I wonder: When you used the 250 ft spacing (and in the nulls), what kind of measured coupling did you see? We never measured anything. Rather, we followed good engineering practice, worked to find locations on our site where the antennas could be colinear and in each others nulls, and as widely separated as practical. We used resonant dipoles for 80 and 40, tribanders for 20-10. All had serious ferrite chokes at their feedpoint, all were fed with big coax (RG213, RG11), all Amphenol connectors, carefully tightened. Rigs were K3s with KPA500 amps. We also use bandpass filters on each rig, which helps with harmonics. The result was that we could have both CW and SSB on the same band. What would people expect for power loss between the G5RV and the beam? Based on other comments, distance, and the beam heading the wrong way, I'd guess about 50 dB. First, dump the G5RV and use resonant dipoles with serious ferrite chokes. The chokes are probably good for 3-6 dB additional isolation, maybe more. Without them, common mode radiation from the feedline fills in the nulls of the pattern. Second, pay careful attention to all the little stuff, like the quality of the coax and the connectors, any switches that are in the way. When you're trying to get 50 dB down, that little stuff can make or break you. Note that our high power operation was for the California QSO Party. I don't consider FD a high power contest -- I've never run more than 100W, and for the last five years I've been doing it QRP. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Maybe it was something with the setup. That's an understatement. Running kilowatt-level power on the same band to two antennas only 20 feet apart is simply crazy. I don't know what input protection the KX3's have, but they almost certainly kicked in and being inherently non-linear they would have generated all sorts of high level trash on the front end. It would be interesting to see the math, but I think you're lucky you didn't blow the heck out of both front ends in spite of the protection. Dave AB7E On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote: KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On Wed,7/1/2015 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft wrote: KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. Your expectations are unreasonable -- 20 ft is WAY too close, even for two great rigs on the same band at 500W. We run K3s to KPA500s on the same band for CQP (Cal QSO Party) county expeditions and use 250 ft spacing with antennas carefully located to be essentially colinear. 150 ft is not enough. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
with that sort of power level, you are looking at several devices failing, and making the system deaf as a post. KK4QDZ - Now with Extra Class Priv's, and a tiny KX3 to enjoy them! From: David Gilbert xda...@cis-broadband.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2015 3:46 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) Maybe it was something with the setup. That's an understatement. Running kilowatt-level power on the same band to two antennas only 20 feet apart is simply crazy. I don't know what input protection the KX3's have, but they almost certainly kicked in and being inherently non-linear they would have generated all sorts of high level trash on the front end. It would be interesting to see the math, but I think you're lucky you didn't blow the heck out of both front ends in spite of the protection. Dave AB7E On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote: KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to billblomg...@yahoo.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Hello Matt, Wow, with those power levels and a 20 ft spacing between 3 el yagis, you are cruisin' for a bruisin'. I made some measurements at my home station with two K3s on ten meters feeding different antennas. The antennas were 300 ft apart. I aligned the two yagis to face each other and saw only 17 dB of isolation. One of my K3's was hooked to a 1500 watt amp. With the antennas aimed at each other, there would be 30 watts coming down the feedline of K3 #2! Now my yagis were bigger than 3 elements: I had 5 and 6 element HB beams, but the problem is lack of isolation between any directional antenna. A few dB makes little difference. I still have not solved the in band overload problem entirely. 1500 watts is a lot of power. Cross polarization is a good way to go. Make one antenna vertically polarized and pick up a bit over 20 dB. The other technique is to avoid aiming antennas in directions that aggravate the problem. I think you would want 60 dB of rig to rig isolation with a legal limit amplifier for really good results. Having antennas at differing heights, cross polarized, and widely separated, can get you close, but I am afraid that boresighted antennas will still cause problems at 1500 watts. QRP looks better and better!! Dave K1WHS - Original Message - From: Matt Z via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 4:33 AM Subject: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:43:16 -0400From: Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.comTo: N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.comCc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.netSubject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)Message-ID: canckpc1suaytmrtjljn0kbdyzay+-gacjqquwbkgvm0vxsp...@mail.gmail.comContent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:34 AM, N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.com wrote: The Flex ops should have dialed in a little front-end attenuation to alleviate the ADC overload problem. Understand the sentiment, but more attenuation is operationallycontra-indicated if the signals you're trying to work are weak due totemporary emergency antennas and QRP. Part of emergency preparedness is understanding various rigsnon-prejudicially for their various strengths and weaknesses and choosingrigs for strengths and avoiding rigs for weakness as those apply to thespecifics of an application. These days weak signals and close multiple transceivers call for the likesof K3's. At N4C field day we frequently had a CW station and SSB station on the sameband with no interference, and actually without being aware of each other.No noise, no anything. I know what a K3's hardware AGC kick-in sounds likeand that was also absent. This has been our experience for five or sixfield days now, and together with the small light size and portability,makes the K3 a top pick for FD. Not because of Koolaid, but because ofproven suitability to the application. I'm waiting to hear about KX3's for FD, especially battery operation, longa specific niche for K2's. We did not have a K3S or K3 with KSYN3A for evaluation. We have a standingquestion of whether K3S/upgraded K3, with some horizontal separation, willbe able to operate a few KHz away from each other on the same band/modesegment, e.g. the 40 CW station, and the GOTA station on 40 CW at the sametime. Perhaps next year we will find out. N4C operated at the Grey Goose Farm near Creedmore, NC. The group was alarge portion of the North Carolina East chapter of the Potomac ValleyRadio Club. This group contains a significant supply of K3 owners, whoregularly bring K3's to FD and multi-op contest events. For themportability and immunity to high RF environments are top-of-the-listreasons for purchasing K3's as opposed to other choices, easily serving FDstyle applications. At NY4A, also primarily manned by PVRC NC East members, going back pre-K3the FT1000MP was the main rig, which had gradually replaced all thestalwart Japanese rigs of prior years. For some time the MP was the onlyrig seen there. When the K3's and other rigs with new generation RX cameout, and the differences became known, The MP's were gradually replaced. Atally of the list of MP owning operators who had manned NY4A at some pointindicated that 11 MP's had been replaced by 14 K3's and one Orion. Of thatgroup, no one owns a Flex to this date. But neither would I consider any ofthem to be a Flex-basher. I do know Flex owners, single home stations, who get outstandingperformance away from high-RF multi-TX operations. Various problems with CWand spectral purity seem
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:34 AM, N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.com wrote: The Flex ops should have dialed in a little front-end attenuation to alleviate the ADC overload problem. Understand the sentiment, but more attenuation is operationally contra-indicated if the signals you're trying to work are weak due to temporary emergency antennas and QRP. Part of emergency preparedness is understanding various rigs non-prejudicially for their various strengths and weaknesses and choosing rigs for strengths and avoiding rigs for weakness as those apply to the specifics of an application. These days weak signals and close multiple transceivers call for the likes of K3's. At N4C field day we frequently had a CW station and SSB station on the same band with no interference, and actually without being aware of each other. No noise, no anything. I know what a K3's hardware AGC kick-in sounds like and that was also absent. This has been our experience for five or six field days now, and together with the small light size and portability, makes the K3 a top pick for FD. Not because of Koolaid, but because of proven suitability to the application. I'm waiting to hear about KX3's for FD, especially battery operation, long a specific niche for K2's. We did not have a K3S or K3 with KSYN3A for evaluation. We have a standing question of whether K3S/upgraded K3, with some horizontal separation, will be able to operate a few KHz away from each other on the same band/mode segment, e.g. the 40 CW station, and the GOTA station on 40 CW at the same time. Perhaps next year we will find out. N4C operated at the Grey Goose Farm near Creedmore, NC. The group was a large portion of the North Carolina East chapter of the Potomac Valley Radio Club. This group contains a significant supply of K3 owners, who regularly bring K3's to FD and multi-op contest events. For them portability and immunity to high RF environments are top-of-the-list reasons for purchasing K3's as opposed to other choices, easily serving FD style applications. At NY4A, also primarily manned by PVRC NC East members, going back pre-K3 the FT1000MP was the main rig, which had gradually replaced all the stalwart Japanese rigs of prior years. For some time the MP was the only rig seen there. When the K3's and other rigs with new generation RX came out, and the differences became known, The MP's were gradually replaced. A tally of the list of MP owning operators who had manned NY4A at some point indicated that 11 MP's had been replaced by 14 K3's and one Orion. Of that group, no one owns a Flex to this date. But neither would I consider any of them to be a Flex-basher. I do know Flex owners, single home stations, who get outstanding performance away from high-RF multi-TX operations. Various problems with CW and spectral purity seem to be a continuing manufacturer's emphasis for solution. They're out there on a particular bleeding edge, with a particular emphasis, with its own set of problems. We'll just see what they do. Bashing not necessary. UPS currently has my 2015 K3 upgrade round: KXV3B, KSYN3A's, a second KBPF3 (A version) and finally a P3 and P3SVGA. I will get the new audio board when it's available. Regards All, Guy K2AV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
I will do that soon. Original message From: N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.com Date: 2015/07/01 10:54 AM (GMT-06:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) joemoffatt wrote Kinda what I thought. We are going to set up again like this to see what happens. Please report back with what happens Joe. Unfortunately, the current implementation of SmartSDR (Flex 6K software) does not provide an ADC overload indication like PowerSDR does so you would just need to elicit the interference and see if attenuation alleviates the receiver blocking. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-FD-report-in-high-RF-K3-vs-Flex-6xxx-tp7604461p7604496.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to j...@selectconnect.netmailto:j...@selectconnect.net Total Control Panel Loginhttps://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=selectconnect.net To: j...@selectconnect.nethttps://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=750607761domain=selectconnect.net From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.nethttps://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net Message Score: 1High (60): Pass My Spam Blocking Level: Medium Medium (75): Pass Low (90): Pass Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2bl-sender-address=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net this sender / Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2ent=1bl-sender-address=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net this sender enterprise-wide Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2bl-sender-domain=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net mailman.qth.net / Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2ent=1bl-sender-domain=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net mailman.qth.net enterprise-wide This message was delivered because the content filter score did not exceed your filter level. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
The Flex design is completely exposed to strong in band signals. That is a well known problem with both their original QSD and current DDC designs. Simply put, they can't handle ADC overflow. That will always be a problem for SDRs with wide front ends in high RF environments. The K3 and Orion transmitters have much less spurious (particularly transmitted phase noise from the K3) than most other transceivers while the Flex is one of the dirtiest according to ARRL Labs. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-01 7:49 AM, N1EU wrote: joemoffatt wrote The K3 and Orion absolutely crushed the Flex's. The Flex's got destroyed by in band interference from the CW guys, but we never heard them. I don't think you can necessarily make that conclusion without further testing. If the K3/Orion transmitters had significantly more spurious tx products than the Flex transmitters, that could also explain why the Flex receivers seemed impaired compared to the K3/Orion. I'm not suggesting that was the case, but you need more data to reach a conclusion. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-FD-report-in-high-RF-K3-vs-Flex-6xxx-tp7604461p7604491.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
joemoffatt wrote The K3 and Orion absolutely crushed the Flex's. The Flex's got destroyed by in band interference from the CW guys, but we never heard them. I don't think you can necessarily make that conclusion without further testing. If the K3/Orion transmitters had significantly more spurious tx products than the Flex transmitters, that could also explain why the Flex receivers seemed impaired compared to the K3/Orion. I'm not suggesting that was the case, but you need more data to reach a conclusion. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-FD-report-in-high-RF-K3-vs-Flex-6xxx-tp7604461p7604491.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote The Flex design . . can't handle ADC overflow. The K3 and Orion transmitters have much less spurious . . . while the Flex is one of the dirtiest according to ARRL Labs. Now you've brought in other data to support the conclusion ;-) The Flex ops should have dialed in a little front-end attenuation to alleviate the ADC overload problem. The K3 and Orion do that automatically (hardware AGC) to avoid ADC overload. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-FD-report-in-high-RF-K3-vs-Flex-6xxx-tp7604461p7604493.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On Wed,7/1/2015 5:17 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: The K3 and Orion transmitters have much less spurious (particularly transmitted phase noise from the K3) than most other transceivers while the Flex is one of the dirtiest according to ARRL Labs. Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? That said, Flex did issue firmware/software that is said to reduce keying sidebands. I've been trying to coordinate with a local 6700 owner to test it here. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Kinda what I thought. We are going to set up again like this to see what happens. I've said it before, I am not a Flex basher.I have owned 2 of them and regularly operate 2 more. I like their company. I do prefer my setup more, but I admire what they bring to the table. Joe Original message From: N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.com Date: 2015/07/01 6:50 AM (GMT-06:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) joemoffatt wrote The K3 and Orion absolutely crushed the Flex's. The Flex's got destroyed by in band interference from the CW guys, but we never heard them. I don't think you can necessarily make that conclusion without further testing. If the K3/Orion transmitters had significantly more spurious tx products than the Flex transmitters, that could also explain why the Flex receivers seemed impaired compared to the K3/Orion. I'm not suggesting that was the case, but you need more data to reach a conclusion. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-FD-report-in-high-RF-K3-vs-Flex-6xxx-tp7604461p7604491.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to j...@selectconnect.netmailto:j...@selectconnect.net Total Control Panel Loginhttps://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=selectconnect.net To: j...@selectconnect.nethttps://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=750607761domain=selectconnect.net From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.nethttps://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net Message Score: 1High (60): Pass My Spam Blocking Level: Medium Medium (75): Pass Low (90): Pass Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2bl-sender-address=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net this sender / Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2ent=1bl-sender-address=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net this sender enterprise-wide Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2bl-sender-domain=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net mailman.qth.net / Blockhttps://asp.reflexion.net/FooterAction?ver=2ent=1bl-sender-domain=1rID=750607761aID=11662279409domain=selectconnect.net mailman.qth.net enterprise-wide This message was delivered because the content filter score did not exceed your filter level. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
joemoffatt wrote Kinda what I thought. We are going to set up again like this to see what happens. Please report back with what happens Joe. Unfortunately, the current implementation of SmartSDR (Flex 6K software) does not provide an ADC overload indication like PowerSDR does so you would just need to elicit the interference and see if attenuation alleviates the receiver blocking. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-FD-report-in-high-RF-K3-vs-Flex-6xxx-tp7604461p7604496.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
That said, Flex did issue firmware/software that is said to reduce keying sidebands. I've been trying to coordinate with a local 6700 owner to test it here. While it may address the keying sidebands, it does not address the phase noise issues. Flex will never fix phase noise in the prior generation of hardware (e.g. -123 dBc in the Flex 5000, -120 dBc in the Flex 3000 per Sherwood). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-07-01 12:06 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On Wed,7/1/2015 5:17 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: The K3 and Orion transmitters have much less spurious (particularly transmitted phase noise from the K3) than most other transceivers while the Flex is one of the dirtiest according to ARRL Labs. Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? That said, Flex did issue firmware/software that is said to reduce keying sidebands. I've been trying to coordinate with a local 6700 owner to test it here. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
A couple of years ago I asked W1RFI at Visalia how come they would include a picture of a very sharp keying waveform and a spectrum display showing loud clicks or phase noise but not interpret it for the less technical types. He said that if you want that you should write to the editor of QST and tell him. So that is what we should do about these issues. 73, Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO Rehovot, Israel http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ On 1 Jul 2015 19:06, Jim Brown wrote: On Wed,7/1/2015 5:17 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: The K3 and Orion transmitters have much less spurious (particularly transmitted phase noise from the K3) than most other transceivers while the Flex is one of the dirtiest according to ARRL Labs. Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? That said, Flex did issue firmware/software that is said to reduce keying sidebands. I've been trying to coordinate with a local 6700 owner to test it here. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On 7/1/2015 12:06 PM, Jim Brown wrote: Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? Right after they stop taking advertising revenue from the reviewees (is that even a word ;) ) 73, Ross N4RP -- FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.” __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Jim hits a resonate cord. I do appreciate the League trying to keep costs down but sometimes you get what you pay for. Years ago I wrote the author of a QST published construction article pointing out an error. He sent me his original schematic. QST had redrawn his schematic using multiple ground busses using the pitchfork ground symbol and thereby combining busses. I wrote the editor explaining these errors were doubly wrong since the EU bands the use of the pitchfork symbol for any use other than a safety ground (green wire terminals). I got a reply ignoring the fact the circuit was changed and stating they didn't follow European standards. In fact they made their own standards. How about adopting IEEE or some other standard electronic symbols? If they are going to make their own standards then, they should not be in contravention of existing standards. For instance QST frequently draws a differential amplifier as an op amp. Granted the same ICs can be used for either an op amp or a differential amplifier but use determines the proper symbol and rarely are op amps (analog computing) used in ham radio. Other inconsistences abound like using both square and triangles to represent a linear voltage regulator. Make up your mind and stick to it. Probably the most annoying abuse is the standard of drawing circuit flow from left to right. QST draws schematics so they best fit on the paper. Not for clarity. This makes understanding even more difficult but I do appreciate the effort to economize. 73, Fred, AE6QL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ross Primrose Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 12:12 PM To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) On 7/1/2015 12:06 PM, Jim Brown wrote: Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? Right after they stop taking advertising revenue from the reviewees (is that even a word ;) ) 73, Ross N4RP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Are there moderators here? We are getting a bit far afield of Elecraft topics. :) Tom NY4I 727-437-2771 P.S. Drowning in email? I use SaneBox to instantly clean up my Inbox: http://sanebox.com/t/gdaz7 On Jul 1, 2015, at 5:13 PM, Fred Townsend fptowns...@earthlink.net wrote: Jim hits a resonate cord. I do appreciate the League trying to keep costs down but sometimes you get what you pay for. Years ago I wrote the author of a QST published construction article pointing out an error. He sent me his original schematic. QST had redrawn his schematic using multiple ground busses using the pitchfork ground symbol and thereby combining busses. I wrote the editor explaining these errors were doubly wrong since the EU bands the use of the pitchfork symbol for any use other than a safety ground (green wire terminals). I got a reply ignoring the fact the circuit was changed and stating they didn't follow European standards. In fact they made their own standards. How about adopting IEEE or some other standard electronic symbols? If they are going to make their own standards then, they should not be in contravention of existing standards. For instance QST frequently draws a differential amplifier as an op amp. Granted the same ICs can be used for either an op amp or a differential amplifier but use determines the proper symbol and rarely are op amps (analog computing) used in ham radio. Other inconsistences abound like using both square and triangles to represent a linear voltage regulator. Make up your mind and stick to it. Probably the most annoying abuse is the standard of drawing circuit flow from left to right. QST draws schematics so they best fit on the paper. Not for clarity. This makes understanding even more difficult but I do appreciate the effort to economize. 73, Fred, AE6QL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ross Primrose Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 12:12 PM To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) On 7/1/2015 12:06 PM, Jim Brown wrote: Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? Right after they stop taking advertising revenue from the reviewees (is that even a word ;) ) 73, Ross N4RP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to t...@xmission.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Ditto. I am in danger of wearing out my delete key. Thomas Schaefer wrote: Are there moderators here? We are getting a bit far afield of Elecraft topics. :) Tom NY4I 727-437-2771 P.S. Drowning in email? I use SaneBox to instantly clean up my Inbox: http://sanebox.com/t/gdaz7 On Jul 1, 2015, at 5:13 PM, Fred Townsend fptowns...@earthlink.net wrote: Jim hits a resonate cord. I do appreciate the League trying to keep costs down but sometimes you get what you pay for. Years ago I wrote the author of a QST published construction article pointing out an error. He sent me his original schematic. QST had redrawn his schematic using multiple ground busses using the pitchfork ground symbol and thereby combining busses. I wrote the editor explaining these errors were doubly wrong since the EU bands the use of the pitchfork symbol for any use other than a safety ground (green wire terminals). I got a reply ignoring the fact the circuit was changed and stating they didn't follow European standards. In fact they made their own standards. How about adopting IEEE or some other standard electronic symbols? If they are going to make their own standards then, they should not be in contravention of existing standards. For instance QST frequently draws a differential amplifier as an op amp. Granted the same ICs can be used for either an op amp or a differential amplifier but use determines the proper symbol and rarely are op amps (analog computing) used in ham radio. Other inconsistences abound like using both square and triangles to represent a linear voltage regulator. Make up your mind and stick to it. Probably the most annoying abuse is the standard of drawing circuit flow from left to right. QST draws schematics so they best fit on the paper. Not for clarity. This makes understanding even more difficult but I do appreciate the effort to economize. 73, Fred, AE6QL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ross Primrose Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 12:12 PM To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx) On 7/1/2015 12:06 PM, Jim Brown wrote: Yes, ARRL Labs tests are damning, though you would never realize it if you only read the text. When is ARRL going to assign technically competent authors to these reviews? Right after they stop taking advertising revenue from the reviewees (is that even a word ;) ) 73, Ross N4RP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to t...@xmission.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to bs...@k5dkz.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On Wed,7/1/2015 2:13 PM, Fred Townsend wrote: Years ago I wrote the author of a QST published construction article pointing out an error. He sent me his original schematic. QST had redrawn his schematic using multiple ground busses using the pitchfork ground symbol and thereby combining busses. Their redrawing a perfect example of the muddy thinking about signal common (what we call ground in a circuit). In his EMC classes, guru Henry Ott, WA2IRQ, emphasizes the importance of knowing where the return current is flowing -- he talks about the hidden schematic concealed by the ground symbol. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
On Wed,7/1/2015 1:11 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Flex will never fix phase noise in the prior generation of hardware (e.g. -123 dBc in the Flex 5000, -120 dBc in the Flex 3000 per Sherwood). Nor will Yaesu ever fix the clicks in their FT1000-series radios. :) 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:43:16 -0400From: Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.comTo: N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.comCc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.netSubject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)Message-ID: canckpc1suaytmrtjljn0kbdyzay+-gacjqquwbkgvm0vxsp...@mail.gmail.comContent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:34 AM, N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.com wrote: The Flex ops should have dialed in a little front-end attenuation to alleviate the ADC overload problem. Understand the sentiment, but more attenuation is operationallycontra-indicated if the signals you're trying to work are weak due totemporary emergency antennas and QRP. Part of emergency preparedness is understanding various rigsnon-prejudicially for their various strengths and weaknesses and choosingrigs for strengths and avoiding rigs for weakness as those apply to thespecifics of an application. These days weak signals and close multiple transceivers call for the likesof K3's. At N4C field day we frequently had a CW station and SSB station on the sameband with no interference, and actually without being aware of each other.No noise, no anything. I know what a K3's hardware AGC kick-in sounds likeand that was also absent. This has been our experience for five or sixfield days now, and together with the small light size and portability,makes the K3 a top pick for FD. Not because of Koolaid, but because ofproven suitability to the application. I'm waiting to hear about KX3's for FD, especially battery operation, longa specific niche for K2's. We did not have a K3S or K3 with KSYN3A for evaluation. We have a standingquestion of whether K3S/upgraded K3, with some horizontal separation, willbe able to operate a few KHz away from each other on the same band/modesegment, e.g. the 40 CW station, and the GOTA station on 40 CW at the sametime. Perhaps next year we will find out. N4C operated at the Grey Goose Farm near Creedmore, NC. The group was alarge portion of the North Carolina East chapter of the Potomac ValleyRadio Club. This group contains a significant supply of K3 owners, whoregularly bring K3's to FD and multi-op contest events. For themportability and immunity to high RF environments are top-of-the-listreasons for purchasing K3's as opposed to other choices, easily serving FDstyle applications. At NY4A, also primarily manned by PVRC NC East members, going back pre-K3the FT1000MP was the main rig, which had gradually replaced all thestalwart Japanese rigs of prior years. For some time the MP was the onlyrig seen there. When the K3's and other rigs with new generation RX cameout, and the differences became known, The MP's were gradually replaced. Atally of the list of MP owning operators who had manned NY4A at some pointindicated that 11 MP's had been replaced by 14 K3's and one Orion. Of thatgroup, no one owns a Flex to this date. But neither would I consider any ofthem to be a Flex-basher. I do know Flex owners, single home stations, who get outstandingperformance away from high-RF multi-TX operations. Various problems with CWand spectral purity seem to be a continuing manufacturer's emphasis forsolution. They're out there on a particular bleeding edge, with aparticular emphasis, with its own set of problems. We'll just see what theydo. Bashing not necessary. UPS currently has my 2015 K3 upgrade round: KXV3B, KSYN3A's, a second KBPF3(A version) and finally a P3 and P3SVGA. I will get the new audio boardwhen it's available. Regards All, Guy K2AV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Did the KX3 have the isolation preamp turned on? It is normal for a direct conversion receiver to leak the LO at the operating frequency. The KX3 has a special preamp that prevents that. Also, antennas 20 feet apart might as well have coax directly from the transmitter into the receiver. That will cause huge coupling of TX into RX. Running 500W and 1.5kW? You are lucky that the receivers survived, let alone were able to work any band when the other one was transmitting. Don’t do that again. wunder K6WRU CM87wj http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog) On Jul 1, 2015, at 9:33 PM, Matt Z via Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net wrote: KL7AA had two elecrafts at FD, a KX3 for SSB and a K3 for CW, and interference was a definitely noticed. Each rig was wired to separate 3 element stepIRs, about 20 feet apart. One rig used the elecraft 500w amp and one used a 1.5kw amp. The two elecrafts could not operate on the same band at all. Maybe it was something with the setup. Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:43:16 -0400From: Guy Olinger K2AV k2av@gmail.comTo: N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.comCc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.netSubject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)Message-ID: canckpc1suaytmrtjljn0kbdyzay+-gacjqquwbkgvm0vxsp...@mail.gmail.comContent-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:34 AM, N1EU n1eu.ba...@gmail.com wrote: The Flex ops should have dialed in a little front-end attenuation to alleviate the ADC overload problem. Understand the sentiment, but more attenuation is operationallycontra-indicated if the signals you're trying to work are weak due totemporary emergency antennas and QRP. Part of emergency preparedness is understanding various rigsnon-prejudicially for their various strengths and weaknesses and choosingrigs for strengths and avoiding rigs for weakness as those apply to thespecifics of an application. These days weak signals and close multiple transceivers call for the likesof K3's. At N4C field day we frequently had a CW station and SSB station on the sameband with no interference, and actually without being aware of each other.No noise, no anything. I know what a K3's hardware AGC kick-in sounds likeand that was also absent. This has been our experience for five or sixfield days now, and together with the small light size and portability,makes the K3 a top pick for FD. Not because of Koolaid, but because ofproven suitability to the application. I'm waiting to hear about KX3's for FD, especially battery operation, longa specific niche for K2's. We did not have a K3S or K3 with KSYN3A for evaluation. We have a standingquestion of whether K3S/upgraded K3, with some horizontal separation, willbe able to operate a few KHz away from each other on the same band/modesegment, e.g. the 40 CW station, and the GOTA station on 40 CW at the sametime. Perhaps next year we will find out. N4C operated at the Grey Goose Farm near Creedmore, NC. The group was alarge portion of the North Carolina East chapter of the Potomac ValleyRadio Club. This group contains a significant supply of K3 owners, whoregularly bring K3's to FD and multi-op contest events. For themportability and immunity to high RF environments are top-of-the-listreasons for purchasing K3's as opposed to other choices, easily serving FDstyle applications. At NY4A, also primarily manned by PVRC NC East members, going back pre-K3the FT1000MP was the main rig, which had gradually replaced all thestalwart Japanese rigs of prior years. For some time the MP was the onlyrig seen there. When the K3's and other rigs with new generation RX cameout, and the differences became known, The MP's were gradually replaced. Atally of the list of MP owning operators who had manned NY4A at some pointindicated that 11 MP's had been replaced by 14 K3's and one Orion. Of thatgroup, no one owns a Flex to this date. But neither would I consider any ofthem to be a Flex-basher. I do know Flex owners, single home stations, who get outstandingperformance away from high-RF multi-TX operations. Various problems with CWand spectral purity seem to be a continuing manufacturer's emphasis forsolution. They're out there on a particular bleeding edge, with aparticular emphasis, with its own set of problems. We'll just see what theydo. Bashing not necessary. UPS currently has my 2015 K3 upgrade round: KXV3B, KSYN3A's, a second KBPF3(A version) and finally a P3 and P3SVGA. I will get the new audio boardwhen it's available. Regards All, Guy K2AV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org
[Elecraft] K3 FD report in high RF (K3 vs Flex 6xxx)
Guys, I just had the very fortunate (for me) experience of operating my K3 in a 4F category with some good operators. My CW station was My K3, and the other was an Orion 1. The 2 SSB stations were a Flex 6500 and a 6300. Due to space limitations, this is a very high RF environment. We used Dunestar filters, and as much antenna separation as we could, but It was what it was. The K3 and Orion absolutely crushed the Flex's. The Flex's got destroyed by in band interference from the CW guys, but we never heard them. I thought that was a bit odd. Anyhow, to be fair, I didn't get to switch to their antennas to see how different they would be. But I will say this... numerous times during FD, the computers on the Flex's locked up, usually forcing a reboot. That greatly upset the old school Operators. Meanwhile, the K3 performed like a rock star, and we racked up LOTS of CW QSOs on it... well over 1000. Just wanted to say that the K3 is very dear to me, and until the Flex's can be operated without a computer, there really isn't a comparison in Real world operation. I realize mileage may vary, but I was VERY impressed and proud of my K3 in this contest. Mine is one of the last one's pre K3S and does have the new synth. I love it dearly. I think our total score for the effort was over 9000 QSO points, about 2600 QSO's combined between all. Joe AB5OR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
