ETSI standards vs NEBS
Does anyone have a feel for the degree of acceptance of GR-63/1089 in Europe? I can remember at a previous company we got LONIIS in Russia to accept NEBS test results with minimal additional assessment against ETS 300 019/119. Anyone else have any stories to tell, other than the obvious spatial differences? Thanks, Dave Wilson Alidian Networks
Re: Probing power plane with analyser.
We made a probe using rigid coax with its built in SMA connector. Solder a pin to the side of the coax and file it diagonally to create a sharp point. To increase the loading impedance we used an SMA collar that had been filed out to place a series chip resistor of 470 ohms in series with the center conductor. Then we calibrated the probe for insertion loss up to 2 GHz and could probe around on the board. If I had it to do again, I would move the resistor out very close to the probe tip to reduce the effects of the series inductance, but what worked worked, so we went on. - Robert - -Original Message- From: pwmc...@ra.rockwell.com pwmc...@ra.rockwell.com To: Cameron O'phee O'p...@ali.com.au Cc: 'EMC - PSTC Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; Roman Seifert seif...@ali.com.au List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000 5:50 AM Subject: Re: Probing power plane with analyser. Cameron, If you are looking for a measure of the conducted RF coming off the board the standard AC LISN works for DC power as well. The voltage probe per CISPR 16 will also work and gives a standardized impedance that can be probed from point to point (or if you are looking for a down and dirty measurement just put a capacitor in series with your probe to block the DC). Paul McCoy Cameron O'phee O'p...@ali.com.au@ieee.org on 09/27/2000 07:59:24 PM Please respond to Cameron O'phee O'p...@ali.com.au Sent by: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org To: 'EMC - PSTC Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Roman Seifert seif...@ali.com.au Subject: Probing power plane with analyser. Hello All, I have been asked by one of our design engineers if I can measure the RF signature on the 3v plane on one of our PCB designs. The purpose of this is to compare it to proposed changes for cost reduction, ie removal of bypass caps. I would assume I need some sort of CDN but I have no designs for this application. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can safely probe a 3v DC power rail with an EMC analyser (HP8591E)? Regards, Cameron O'Phee. EMC Safety Precompliance. Aristocrat Technologies Australia. Telephone : +61 2 9697 4420 Facsimile : +61 2 9663 1412 Mobile : 0418 464 016 --- --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Probing power plane with analyser.
Cameron, Checkout Doug Smith's webpage for some insight on making RF measurements using various (homemade) probes. http://emcesd.com/ Good Luck, George -Original Message- From: Cameron O'phee [mailto:O'p...@ali.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:59 PM To: 'EMC - PSTC Forum' Cc: Roman Seifert Subject: Probing power plane with analyser. Hello All, I have been asked by one of our design engineers if I can measure the RF signature on the 3v plane on one of our PCB designs. The purpose of this is to compare it to proposed changes for cost reduction, ie removal of bypass caps. I would assume I need some sort of CDN but I have no designs for this application. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can safely probe a 3v DC power rail with an EMC analyser (HP8591E)? Regards, Cameron O'Phee. EMC Safety Precompliance. Aristocrat Technologies Australia. Telephone : +61 2 9697 4420 Facsimile : +61 2 9663 1412 Mobile : 0418 464 016 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Probing power plane with analyser.
Cameron, If you are looking for a measure of the conducted RF coming off the board the standard AC LISN works for DC power as well. The voltage probe per CISPR 16 will also work and gives a standardized impedance that can be probed from point to point (or if you are looking for a down and dirty measurement just put a capacitor in series with your probe to block the DC). Paul McCoy Cameron O'phee O'p...@ali.com.au@ieee.org on 09/27/2000 07:59:24 PM Please respond to Cameron O'phee O'p...@ali.com.au Sent by: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org To: 'EMC - PSTC Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Roman Seifert seif...@ali.com.au Subject: Probing power plane with analyser. Hello All, I have been asked by one of our design engineers if I can measure the RF signature on the 3v plane on one of our PCB designs. The purpose of this is to compare it to proposed changes for cost reduction, ie removal of bypass caps. I would assume I need some sort of CDN but I have no designs for this application. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can safely probe a 3v DC power rail with an EMC analyser (HP8591E)? Regards, Cameron O'Phee. EMC Safety Precompliance. Aristocrat Technologies Australia. Telephone : +61 2 9697 4420 Facsimile : +61 2 9663 1412 Mobile : 0418 464 016 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
ITU-T H.248
Anyone know where to obtain a draft copy of the H.248 spec? The ITU-T website says To Be Published and a 06/00 date, but doesn't say when it will really be available... Thanks D -- --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Probing power plane with analyser.
Hello All, I have been asked by one of our design engineers if I can measure the RF signature on the 3v plane on one of our PCB designs. The purpose of this is to compare it to proposed changes for cost reduction, ie removal of bypass caps. I would assume I need some sort of CDN but I have no designs for this application. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can safely probe a 3v DC power rail with an EMC analyser (HP8591E)? Regards, Cameron O'Phee. EMC Safety Precompliance. Aristocrat Technologies Australia. Telephone : +61 2 9697 4420 Facsimile : +61 2 9663 1412 Mobile : 0418 464 016 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Probing power plane with analyser.
Cameron: That's fairly easy to do as long as you: 1. Take all measurments from the same reference points before and after the changes and 2. Use a DC block on the input to the analyzer ;other wise you may have an expensive input to replace. Most analyzers inputs are not protected for DC. Most companies sell the DC isolator as an accessory. Ralph Cameron EMC Consultant and Suppression of Consumer Electronic Equipment. - Original Message - From: Cameron O'phee O'p...@ali.com.au To: 'EMC - PSTC Forum' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Cc: Roman Seifert seif...@ali.com.au Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:59 PM Subject: Probing power plane with analyser. Hello All, I have been asked by one of our design engineers if I can measure the RF signature on the 3v plane on one of our PCB designs. The purpose of this is to compare it to proposed changes for cost reduction, ie removal of bypass caps. I would assume I need some sort of CDN but I have no designs for this application. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can safely probe a 3v DC power rail with an EMC analyser (HP8591E)? Regards, Cameron O'Phee. EMC Safety Precompliance. Aristocrat Technologies Australia. Telephone : +61 2 9697 4420 Facsimile : +61 2 9663 1412 Mobile : 0418 464 016 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
EN50178 question
BSI's on-line and printed catalogues give the following information about the above standard: BS EN 50178:1998 Electronic equipment for use in power installations That's all it says, except a list of cross references as long as both your arms. Before I waste GBP56 of my hard earned cash on buying a copy just to see if it has any relevance to one of my client's projects, can someone give me a good idea of what this standard is really all about? Thanks for any help. Nick. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: VCCI application
There is a pdf version of the form in the guest center on our web site at www.curtis-straus.com -Jon Curtis. Jim Bacher wrote: forwarding for : bgilmar...@cereva.com Reply Separator Subject:VCCI application Author: Gilmartin; Bob bgilmar...@cereva.com Date: 9/27/00 1:46 PM Hello group, Does anybody have an application for VCCI they can forward to me. I went to the VCCI website and it's a Catch-22-I can't download an application for membership until I have a membership (i.e. username and password). There is also no link to email VCCI. Bob Gilmartin Sr. Regulatory Engineer Cereva Networks, Inc. 3 Network Drive Marlboro, MA 01752-3083 (508) 486-9660 x3412 phone (508) 486-9776 fax --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org -- Jon D. Curtis, P.E. Director of Engineering Curtis-Straus LLC One Stop Laboratory for NEBS, EMC, Product Safety, and Telecom Testing. 527 Great Road Littleton, MA 01460 USA Voice 978-486-8880 Fax 978-486-8828 email: jcur...@curtis-straus.com WWW.CURTIS-STRAUS.COM --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: VCCI application Membership required??
The way I remember it, test labs are 'associate members'. Only manufacturers can be 'members'. Has this changed? Regards, Bandele Jetstream Communications, Inc. badep...@jetstream.com -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 3:46 PM To: 'chasgra...@aol.com'; Gary McInturff; jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com; bgilmar...@cereva.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: VCCI application Membership required?? Any one can be a member and there are two classes; Member manufacturers and Member test facilities. VCCI collects fees from both of us. From the manufacturer's side the fee's are based upon the anticipated number of submittals per year. The payment is billed once a year, but then there are no individual filling fees. They review your test report and accept the data and return a stamped copy to you. At that point you can apply their logo, they send you camera ready artwork of the logo and the required Japanese text. There is one other little gotcha. Even though you are a manufacturing member, the data you submit has to come from the other type of member, the test facility. They are required to have VCCI audits and they also pay a yearly fee. You will need to get the C and R numbers which identify their conducted and radiated test sites. You'll also need to have a report number from them and provide a drawing of the cable routing, along with the description of the cables. E.G.. 3 meter, round shielded, RS232 cable, or whatever. So VCCI is in effect double dipping. Some from me and some from you. That is why I maintain them to be the most expensive voluntary organization that I have ever seen. Gary -Original Message- From: chasgra...@aol.com [mailto:chasgra...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 3:15 PM To: gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com; jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com; bgilmar...@cereva.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: VCCI application Membership required?? Can anyone apply for VCCI registration. I thought membership was required prior to sending in an application. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re:Customer service issues w/ EN61000-3-2 3-3
Don, In the EU guidance document for the EMC directive that they published in July of 1997 they differentiate between apparatus that is simply repaired, and apparatus that is repaired / refurbished to as new condition. The latter falls under the EMC directive and standards in effect at the time of reintroduction to the market. The former appears to be the case you are interested in; That equipment can be repaired, and even resold in the EU as long as it is not represented as being AS-NEW, and meets the EMC requirements it originally had to meet when originally placed (unit by unit date determination) on the European Market. As long as your repair parts are only used for repair of existing product and don't reduce performance below the previous requirements for the product you should be fine. Paul McCoy jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com (Jim Bacher)@ieee.org on 09/27/2000 04:37:07 PM Please respond to jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com (Jim Bacher) Sent by: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org To: Don Rhodes don.rho...@infocus.com, 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: Re:Customer service issues w/ EN61000-3-2 3-3 forwarding for don.rho...@infocus.com Reply Separator Subject:Customer service issues w/ EN61000-3-2 3-3 Author: Don Rhodes don.rho...@infocus.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 9/27/00 10:56 AM Does anyone know how the Harmonics Flicker requirements apply to non-compliant, yet non-saleable product after 1/1/01? We will need to provide customer service on products via warrantee exchanges parts shipments, etc. to the EU after 1/1/01, for product which does not comply and will not be offered for sale in the EU after the cut-in date. Is there any known exemption for such cases? References to any cited documentation is appreciated. Don Rhodes don.rho...@infocus.com mailto:don.rho...@infocus.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: UL1697 ???
UL1697 (not in existence yet) will likely be the Standard for the broadband communications equipment detailed in NEC Article 830. If your equipment fits the description someone may be trying to get a head start. Best Regards, Jody Leber Laboratory Manager jle...@ustech-lab.com http://www.ustech-lab.com U. S. Technologies 3505 Francis Circle Alpharetta, GA 30004 770.740.0717 Fax: 770.740.1508 -Original Message- From: Robert Legg [SMTP:rl...@tectrol.com] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 4:14 PM To: IEEE EMC-PSTC Forum Subject:UL1697 ??? Forumites, UL1697. Anyone ever heard of it? It has shown up in a recent design spec for quotation and I suspect a typo. Rob Legg rl...@tectrol.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Sept. 22, 2000 Conformity-Update Now Available
Conformity-Update for the week ending Sept. 22, 2000 is now available at: http://www.conformity-update.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
EN 300 386 in OJ?
Earlier this year, I believe that ETSI EN 300 386 was formally adopted as an EU harmonized standard for telecom network equipment. However, looking on the DG III web page, it looks like this standard has not yet been published in the OJ. I had heard earlier that the anticipated target for publication in the OJ was June '00, but I guess that did not happen. Anyone have an update on 300 386 wrt publication in the OJ? I guess until it is published, we continue to use 300 386-2 (or others). Thanks and Regards, Scott Lemon Sr. Compliance Engineer Network Reliability and Compliance Engineering Caspian Networks Research Triangle Park, NC email: sle...@caspiannetworks.com ph: (919) 466-0315 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Canadian Hipot Requirements
Hi Mike: I'm posting this for a friend who is having a problem with CSA and hipot testing. He has several products which operate on 115/230 VAC. They are industrial control products (don't know the CSA standard number but they fall under UL508 is the US). In one CSA report he is required to run a 1500 VAC hipot for one minute (1800 VAC for one second), in another CSA report he is required to run 1000 VAC for one minute (1200 VAC for one second). I know the CSA hipot requirement is elusive and is required by the Canadian Electric companies. Can anyone help me give this guy some guidance? My feeling is that the 1500 VAC requirement is the type test and he should be using the 1000 VAC value for routine production tests. He has been told by CSA that anything under 50 VAC gets tested at 1000 VAC and that anything over that gets tested at 2 x rated voltage +1000 for production line tests. Seems strange. Hi-pot test voltages are not standardized, although IEC SC28A has attempted to do so in IEC Publication 664. Standards such as UL 508 are not subject to international standardization, so there is little or no influence of IEC 664 on the test requirements in UL 508 and the CSA equivalent. So, to understand the CSA requirements, we must look at the history of hi-pot test voltages. In North America, in the 1960s and 1970s, virtually all products were 120 V. We simply were not in the international marketplace. (Those that were, their products had to be internally re-wired -- by the customer -- with a soldering iron -- to operate at 220 V or 240 V.) There were no switch-selectable or wide-range products. At the time, the standard hi-pot test voltage in both the USA and Canada was either 900 or 1000 V rms, depending on the standard. For any other voltage, the standard was 2V + 1000, where V is the rated voltage. Thus, for a product rated 220 V, the test voltage was 1440 V rms. Later, the formula, 2V + 1000, was applied to all voltages, so for products rated 120 V, the test voltage became 1240 V rms. These were often rounded to 1250 V and 1500 V. So, now we have four test voltages, 900, 1000, 1250, and 1500. And, nobody understood why we needed to do such testing. Often, we felt that this testing represented some kind of abnormal condition, but,at the same time, it seemed quite unreasonable to expect the mains to go such a high voltage. But, we went ahead and did the testing, usually without any difficulty. Because of the lack of understanding of the purpose of the hi-pot test, back in those days hi-pot testing was applied to any terminal that was connected to an external voltage source. So, even low-voltage circuits were subjected to the minimum hi-pot voltage, 1000 V. So, in answer to your colleague's question, all of the CSA-required hi-pot voltages are correct. They simply are not standardized, either within the standard or among standards. I believe the same situation exists in UL. If your colleague wants standardization, he can simply choose to test his products at the worst-case CSA-required voltage. However, his particular CSA engineer may not allow this. The problem is that the standard specifies the hi-pot voltage. Any test voltage that is not that specified in the standard means that the test is not conducted per the standard and is therefore not acceptable (even though the actual test is a worst-case test). Many certification engineers are unwilling to accept data that is not in accordance with the standard. Indeed, there is a good reason for a certification house to not accept a worst- case test voltage. That voltage may be damaging the insulation; the test house does not want to be seen as requiring a test that could be damaging the insulation and thereby causing a safety problem. So, the certification engineer may require testing at the voltage specified in the standard. He will say that if you want to test at worst-case, that is your perogative, but that is over and above and in addition to the certification house test. Best regards, Rich ps: Perhaps Egon will offer his explanations and put a different spin on this question. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Canadian Hipot Requirements
Mike, Doesn't sound that strange to me. To help answer your question I looked at several UL Follow-Up Service Procedures that we have here in the plant for various types of Information Technology Equipment. This equipment has input voltages of 100-240VAC. UL has a table in the FUS that specifies the voltages and times for Hipot tests. The table for Class 1 equipment (Non-Double Insulated) has the following specifications: Rated 60 VDC or less: 500 VAC or 700 VDC for 1 second. Rated less than or equal to 130 VAC (184 VDC): 1000 VAC or 1400 VDC for 1 second. Rated more than 130 VAC (184 VDC) and less than or equal to 600 VAC (849 VDC): 1500 VAC or 2100 VDC for 1 second. It does seem strange that they would want him to run the tests for 1 minute as opposed to 1 second. I would go with the slightly higher voltages for 1 second to save time. I believe that the 2 times the (maximum) rated input voltage plus 1000 VAC is what is typically used for type testing, although I believe I have also heard this used for production line testing. This is also found in the booklet by Associated Research titled A Basic Guide to Electrical Product Safety Testing in the section on Hipot testing. Quoted directly from the booklet: Test voltages are seldom less than 1000V, and for some products intended to operate at voltages between 100V and 240V, the test voltage can exceed 4000 volts (usually double insulated products). A rule of thumb that most safety agencies use to determine the appropriate test voltage is to multiply the DUT's normal operating voltage by two and add 1000V. By the way I strongly recommend this free booklet from Associated Research. It has a lot of good information in it. I hope this has been of some help to you. Kurt Andrews Compliance Engineer Tracewell Systems, Inc. 567 Enterprise Drive Westerville, Ohio 43081 voice: 614.846.6175 toll free: 800.848.4525 fax: 614.846.7791 http://www.tracewellsystems.com/ http://www.tracewellsystems.com/ -Original Message- From: Mike Morrow [SMTP:mi...@ucentric.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:52 PM To: EMC Society Subject:Canadian Hipot Requirements I'm posting this for a friend who is having a problem with CSA and hipot testing. He has several products which operate on 115/230 VAC. They are industrial control products (don't know the CSA standard number but they fall under UL508 is the US). In one CSA report he is required to run a 1500 VAC hipot for one minute (1800 VAC for one second), in another CSA report he is required to run 1000 VAC for one minute (1200 VAC for one second). I know the CSA hipot requirement is elusive and is required by the Canadian Electric companies. Can anyone help me give this guy some guidance? My feeling is that the 1500 VAC requirement is the type test and he should be using the 1000 VAC value for routine production tests. He has been told by CSA that anything under 50 VAC gets tested at 1000 VAC and that anything over that gets tested at 2 x rated voltage +1000 for production line tests. Seems strange. Mike Morrow Senior Compliance Engineer Ucentric Systems 978-897-6482 mi...@ucentric.com www.ucentric.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Canadian Hipot Requirements
I'm posting this for a friend who is having a problem with CSA and hipot testing. He has several products which operate on 115/230 VAC. They are industrial control products (don't know the CSA standard number but they fall under UL508 is the US). In one CSA report he is required to run a 1500 VAC hipot for one minute (1800 VAC for one second), in another CSA report he is required to run 1000 VAC for one minute (1200 VAC for one second). I know the CSA hipot requirement is elusive and is required by the Canadian Electric companies. Can anyone help me give this guy some guidance? My feeling is that the 1500 VAC requirement is the type test and he should be using the 1000 VAC value for routine production tests. He has been told by CSA that anything under 50 VAC gets tested at 1000 VAC and that anything over that gets tested at 2 x rated voltage +1000 for production line tests. Seems strange. Mike Morrow Senior Compliance Engineer Ucentric Systems 978-897-6482 mi...@ucentric.com www.ucentric.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Safety test your EMC test sample?
Equipment shall not become dangerous or unsafe as a result of the application of the tests defined in this section of IEC 1000-4. That statement appears in (with only slight variations) -2, -3, -4, -5 and -6. Dangerous or unsafe is not defined. There are no links to any safety standards or other criteria to apply. So, which one of the following would apply? 1. No smoke, no fire, the cover didn't fly off, dogs still hate cats, so it's safe! 2. The usual standards-driven safety qualification is done on another sample, the EMC sample is not safety tested unless something very obvious has happened. 3. Take the EMC sample(s) to the safety lab for validating key parameters like dielectric withstand and leakage current. 4. Take the EMC sample(s) to the safety lab for a full safety evaluation. Regards, Eric Lifsey Compliance Manager National Instruments --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Purpose of Electric Strength Testing (Hi-Pot)
Hello from San Diego: One of our colleagues has asked me to discuss further the reason behind the hi-pot test. The insulation between the mains and accessible conductive parts (including low-voltage-energized accessible conductive parts) is critical to the scheme of protection from electric shock. Because the insulation is critical to protection from electric shock, the design of the mains insulation must be such as to maximize the preservation (reliablity) of the insulation. Or, to put it another way, the product design must minimize the deteriorating influences on the mains insulation. One of the deteriorating influences on insulation is voltage. Mains insulation is subject to two different voltages. The first is the normal mains voltage itself. The second is the normal overvoltages. Note that I said that overvoltages are normal. Mains overvoltages are generated by the normal operation of inductive devices connected to the mains such as motors and transformers and ignitors and similar devices. These inductances in their normal operation create back-EMFs that are imposed on the mains circuits and propagated throughout the system. Under standard conditions, these overvoltages can be predicted at the point where they are generated. But, their amplitude at any point in the system is a variable depending on the local distribution system and its parameters. These overvoltages have been studied and measured, and the results have been published in numerous technical articles. The conclusions, time and again, show that the maximum overvoltages are in the 900 to 1200 volts peak. From these studies, a standard test waveform, representing these overvoltages, has been established, the 1.2 x 50 impulse. So, the mains insulation is subject to both the normal mains operating voltage and the normal mains overvoltage. Over the years, we have found that designing the mains insulation for 1500 V rms provides adequate preservation (reliability). Simply by selecting certified mains components insures adequate insulation to withstand the normal mains overvoltages. Certified mains components such as appliance couplers, fuseholders, and wire rated at 120 V or 250 V are subjected to 1500-volt dielectric withstand tests. We test the design with the hi-pot test. This test confirms that we have selected and controlled the two forms of insulation, solid and air, to have an electric strength of at least 1500 V rms. We also test the production process with the hi-pot test. This test confirms that our production process has assembled the unit properly, and that no manufacturing defects are in the product that would cause the insulation to fail in the event of a normal overvoltage. Best regards, Rich ps: Note that a creepage is not an insulation; it is the interface between solid and air insulations. A creepage is critical to safety because the solid insulation at the interface is subject to the long-term deteriorating influences of the normal mains voltage, not the normal overvoltage. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Canadian Hipot Requirements
The problem is that when two separate products have the same input voltage and have been tested to the same standard, why are there two different hipot levels? Its rather difficult to have procedures etc. that don't line up. Also try and explain this to a worker trying to understand hipot testing. Mike -Original Message- From: Robert Legg [mailto:rl...@tectrol.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:53 AM To: Mike Morrow Subject: RE: Canadian Hipot Requirements Mike, You've told about CSA requirements for your friend's products, but you haven't indicated what the problem was. Rob Legg Tectrol Inc rl...@tectrol.com -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Mike Morrow Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:52 PM To: EMC Society Subject: Canadian Hipot Requirements I'm posting this for a friend who is having a problem with CSA and hipot testing. He has several products which operate on 115/230 VAC. They are industrial control products (don't know the CSA standard number but they fall under UL508 is the US). In one CSA report he is required to run a 1500 VAC hipot for one minute (1800 VAC for one second), in another CSA report he is required to run 1000 VAC for one minute (1200 VAC for one second). I know the CSA hipot requirement is elusive and is required by the Canadian Electric companies. Can anyone help me give this guy some guidance? My feeling is that the 1500 VAC requirement is the type test and he should be using the 1000 VAC value for routine production tests. He has been told by CSA that anything under 50 VAC gets tested at 1000 VAC and that anything over that gets tested at 2 x rated voltage +1000 for production line tests. Seems strange. Mike Morrow Senior Compliance Engineer Ucentric Systems 978-897-6482 mi...@ucentric.com www.ucentric.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
