Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Glyn, I understand that there should not be hazard in all expected situations (normal / abnormal use and fault condition) and USB cable is too short to consider transients. What I am trying to do is to understand 62368-1 and reading it I came to 5.4.11 that was hard for me to understand what are exact listed there requirements and if they touch my devices. That laptop I described is an example of device that looks as being not excluded from 5.4.11, and USB is looking (for me) as being external circuits according to 62368-1 definition of this therm and being indicated in table 14. The only way to solve this laptop problem, I see, is if we have to assume that the note in table 14 of not considering transients (as USB is wholly in the same building) makes USB being not indicated in table. When first time writing my question I was not sure if I can assume this. Now I suppose that I have to assume this (if transients are not taken into account than cable is not indicated in table 14). The device I have in mind is 12V powered access controller hawing RS485 (not isolated) and because of this RS485 I am trying to understand 5.4.11. Now I suppose that: 1. It is permanently connected equipment so 5.4.11 not apply, and even it is not permanently connected (as being isolated from Mains by 12V supply) then 2. RS485 as being whole in one building (transients are not taken into account) is not indicated in table 14 so 5.4.11 not apply. The typical 12V supply used (MEAN WELL DRC-40A) specification says: SAFETY STANDARDS: UL60950-1, TUV EN60950-1 approved WITHSTAND VOLTAGE: I/P-O/P:3KVAC I/P-FG:2KVAC O/P-FG:0.5KVAC I always assumed that it is better to not Earth DC12V (its negative pole). Reading 62368-2 5.4.11 description I confirm myself in this belief. Not Earthing 12V we not provide (by RS485) Earth potential to a remote environment making it being still save even if by any other fault the Mains potential can be there. Do you agree with me? Best Regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-10 o 17:26, Glyn Payne pisze: Hi Piotr, Maximum USB cable lengths are quite short, a few meters, and they are not designed to be part of the ‘building or structure’, hence transients are not considered for these ports. If a USB extender or hub is used to extend the USB and this is wired through the building or structure then transients would be the problem of the hub manufacturer and not your product. There was/is /IEC 62368-//3/: /Safety aspects for DC power transfer through communication cables and ports/, which is referenced by IEC 62368-1 however this being reworked by TC108 and as far as I can tell few people are using it in it’s present form. When testing your product under 62368-1 the test house will determine the maximum voltage and current the USB (or serial) port can provide, under normal, abnormal and fault conditions, to ensure that there is no hazard. Best regards, Glyn Payne *From:*Piotr Galka *Sent:* Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 You don't often get email from piotr.ga...@micromade.pl. Learn why this is important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Hi Bostjan, I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table. In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did. I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit. Thanks a lot. I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> *Od:* Piotr Galka <mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl> *Poslano:* sreda, m
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Piotr, Maximum USB cable lengths are quite short, a few meters, and they are not designed to be part of the ‘building or structure’, hence transients are not considered for these ports. If a USB extender or hub is used to extend the USB and this is wired through the building or structure then transients would be the problem of the hub manufacturer and not your product. There was/is IEC 62368-3: Safety aspects for DC power transfer through communication cables and ports, which is referenced by IEC 62368-1 however this being reworked by TC108 and as far as I can tell few people are using it in it’s present form. When testing your product under 62368-1 the test house will determine the maximum voltage and current the USB (or serial) port can provide, under normal, abnormal and fault conditions, to ensure that there is no hazard. Best regards, Glyn Payne From: Piotr Galka Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 You don't often get email from piotr.ga...@micromade.pl<mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl>. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Hi Bostjan, I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table. In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did. I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit. Thanks a lot. I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> Od: Piotr Galka <mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl> Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit. Now. If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit? I don't think so. And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply has isolation in it. If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if controller is manufactured by someone other then
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
I have been watching this subject for a while. i vaguely recall that in some front matter in some standards is a statement that indicates that this is the minimum requirements to go to market. So in the interests of the Corp/s that I worked for at the time, and any quality targets, that they may have, or not, regardless of their awareness of such targets... I often figured out tests that were needed/useful ... but maybe not required in the strict minimum requirements. And reported the results. And fixes to meet those "not strictly required" minimum standards. And did this early in the development process, thus EMC First, First off product could ship !!! And then I/they could spend time and money on cost reducing at our leisure. Cuz product was shipping and bringing in revenue. On time, or even early before plans. On Thursday, May 9, 2024, 7:44:05 AM EDT, James Pawson (U3C) wrote: Hi Piotr, Just to add to the debate: “I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients” If a cable is longer than 30m then most product EMC standards will call up a requirement for line-to-earth surge testing. Some do make it explicit that this should be only for cables leaving a building or site, some do not… All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy www.unit3compliance.co.uk | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 Office hours: Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m available/contactable between 1300h to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri. For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on he...@unit3compliance.co.uk or call 01274 911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks. From: Piotr Galka Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table. In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did. I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit. Thanks a lot. I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. >From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as >external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external >circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android Od: Piotr Galka Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend con
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi James, Thank you for drawing attention to this but my sentence was in context of 62368-1 only. When in 2004 (few days after we joined EU) I went with my devices for the first time to EMC lab (it was an internal company laboratory that also offered external services) they didn't had a capacitors needed in surge testing transmission lines. So we tested them using only 40 ohm resistor. Since then I design my not isolated RS485 to withstand 25A 50us current pulse (Surge generator loaded with 40ohm gives current pulse of a shape rather like its voltage pulse then its current pulse). As I have encountered EMC problems in 90s (devices with RS485 having only ICs ESD protection routed between buildings standing on the top of hill were hanging after every storm) I was well prepared in 2004 and they were surprised that all my devices passed all the tests for the first time. Regards Piotr W dniu 2024-05-09 o 13:43, James Pawson (U3C) pisze: Hi Piotr, Just to add to the debate: “I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients” If a cable is longer than 30m then most product EMC standards will call up a requirement for line-to-earth surge testing. Some do make it explicit that this should be only for cables leaving a building or site, some do not… All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver *Unit 3 Compliance Ltd* *EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy* www.unit3compliance.co.uk <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/> | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk <mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 /Office hours:/ /Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m available/contactable between 1300h to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri./ /For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on he...@unit3compliance.co.uk or call 01274 911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks./ *From:*Piotr Galka *Sent:* Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table. In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did. I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit. Thanks a lot. I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> *Od:*Piotr Galka <mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl> *Poslano:* sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM *Za:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> *Zadeva:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being power
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Piotr, Just to add to the debate: “I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients” If a cable is longer than 30m then most product EMC standards will call up a requirement for line-to-earth surge testing. Some do make it explicit that this should be only for cables leaving a building or site, some do not… All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/> www.unit3compliance.co.uk | <mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 Office hours: Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m available/contactable between 1300h to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri. For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on he...@unit3compliance.co.uk <mailto:he...@unit3compliance.co.uk> or call 01274 911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks. From: Piotr Galka Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table. In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did. I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit. Thanks a lot. I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. >From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as >external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external >circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> _ Od: Piotr Galka <mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl> Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit. Now. If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit? I don't think so. And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains is permanently con
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Ralph and John, 62368-1 I have bought from PKN is in form "first and last page Polish and everything inside English". I suppose they with pleasure will charge me for 62368-2 if I ask them for it. The only question is how much time is needed to prepare these 2 pages. As I remember from times when I was writing here from time to time - we came to conclusion that PKN prices were clearly lower then in other sources. What I am surprised the most: Do really I (a guy from a company with 4 employees) am the first one in Poland being interested in 62368-2 :) Best Regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 23:07, Ralph McDiarmid pisze: Signature The IEC store has IEC TR 62368-2:2019 RLV for 553 Swiss Francs. Ouch. *From:*John Woodgate *Sent:* Wednesday, May 8, 2024 1:37 PM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 You can get 62368-2 from: https://www.evs.ee/en/iec-tr-62368-2-2019, but it is rather costly. On 2024-05-08 21:00, Piotr Galka wrote: After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've just checked that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy 62368-1 what I have done long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( . -- OOO - Own Opinions Only Best wishes John Woodgate, Rayleigh, Essex UK Keep trying <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> Virus-free.www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
The IEC store has IEC TR 62368-2:2019 RLV for 553 Swiss Francs. Ouch. From: John Woodgate Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 1:37 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 You can get 62368-2 from: https://www.evs.ee/en/iec-tr-62368-2-2019, but it is rather costly. On 2024-05-08 21:00, Piotr Galka wrote: After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've just checked that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy 62368-1 what I have done long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( . -- OOO - Own Opinions Only Best wishes John Woodgate, Rayleigh, Essex UK Keep trying <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> Virus-free. <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient> www.avg.com _ This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1> =1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
You can get 62368-2 from: https://www.evs.ee/en/iec-tr-62368-2-2019, but it is rather costly. On 2024-05-08 21:00, Piotr Galka wrote: After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've just checked that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy 62368-1 what I have done long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( . -- Signature OOO - Own Opinions Only Best wishes John Woodgate, Rayleigh, Essex UK Keep trying -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Bostjan, I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table. In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did. I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit. Thanks a lot. I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> *Od:* Piotr Galka *Poslano:* sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM *Za:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Zadeva:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit. Now. If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit? I don't think so. And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply has isolation in it. If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze: > Hi Piotr > > USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output. > > Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times (analogue network, ISDN,...). > > I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me. > > Best regards, > Boštjan > > > > -Original Message- > From: Piotr Galka > Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. > > > Trying to understand 62368-1... > > I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. > For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and > 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other conductors'). > The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transi
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Piotr USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output. Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times (analogue network, ISDN,...). I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me. Best regards, Boštjan -Original Message- From: Piotr Galka Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Trying to understand 62368-1... I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other conductors'). The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table. USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be earthed, I think. Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports? I don't believe there is such requirement. My real problem to understand is as follows: Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and others). I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected equipment or not? To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access controller is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to disconnect from mains (if something is not connected than tools are not needed to make it being disconnected, I think). Being permanently connected equipment is the easiest way for controller to be excluded from 5.4.11. But if it is not permanently connected than its inputs are in the same situation as laptop USB ports I described first as more common to everyone. What I miss or wrongly understand? Regards Piotr Galka P.S. Last month free time I spend browsing about 2800 EMC-PSTC posts collected by my mail program for few years. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail t
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Piotr If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits. >From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as >external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external >circuit and PE are specified. Did you also check 62368-2? Best regards Bostjan Poslano iz Outlook za Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> Od: Piotr Galka Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit. Now. If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit? I don't think so. And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply has isolation in it. If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze: > Hi Piotr > > USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. > Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output. > > Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times > (analogue network, ISDN,...). > > I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me. > > Best regards, > Boštjan > > > > -Original Message- > From: Piotr Galka > Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click > links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the > content is safe. > > > Trying to understand 62368-1... > > I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded > from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. > For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and > 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other > conductors'). > The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external > circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients > so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table. > USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be > earthed, I think. > Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in > this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports? > I don't believe there is such requirement. > > My real problem to understand is as follows: > Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs > (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and > others). > I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to > it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected > equipment or not? > To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply > from mains
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
To fully understand IEC 62368-1, you also need to read IEC 62368-2. It includes a long explanatory text about 5.4.11. The committee realised that it was not practicable to put all the explanations into the same document as the requirements. The circuits feeding the USB connectors of a device are internal circuits. But are you actually using USB or are you mentioning it as an example? For your access controller connected to a 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains, the isolated low-voltage circuits in the 12 V supply equipment are internal circuits and are not subject to transients. Anything connected to the 12 V DC supply is ES1. On 2024-05-08 16:21, Piotr Galka wrote: Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit. Now. If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit? I don't think so. And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply has isolation in it. If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output. Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times (analogue network, ISDN,...). I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me. Best regards, Boštjan -Original Message- From: Piotr Galka Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Trying to understand 62368-1... I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other conductors'). The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table. USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be earthed, I think. Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports? I don't believe there is such requirement. My real problem to understand is as follows: Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and others). I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected equipment or not? To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access controller is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to disconnect from mains (if something is not connected
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Bostjan, Thanks for your feedback, but... I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time. It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is external to the equipment and is not mains". I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is equipment. May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think. In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is equipment internal circuit. Now. If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit? I don't think so. And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply has isolation in it. If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if controller is manufactured by someone other then 12V supply. Best regards Piotr Galka W dniu 2024-05-07 o 19:49, Boštjan Glavič pisze: Hi Piotr USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output. Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times (analogue network, ISDN,...). I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me. Best regards, Boštjan -Original Message- From: Piotr Galka Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Trying to understand 62368-1... I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other conductors'). The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table. USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be earthed, I think. Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports? I don't believe there is such requirement. My real problem to understand is as follows: Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and others). I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected equipment or not? To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access controller is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to disconnect from mains (if something is not connected than tools are not needed to make it being disconnected, I think). Being permanently connected equipment is the easiest way for controller to be excluded from 5.4.11. But if it is not permanently connected than its inputs are in the same situation as laptop USB ports I described first as more common to everyone. What I miss or wrongly understand? Regards Piotr Galka P.S. Last month free time I spend browsing about 2800 EMC-PSTC posts collected by my mail program for few years. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Hi Piotr USB circuit is internal circuit. There are no transients expected on USB. Clause 5.4.11 is not applicable for power supply with USB output. Paired conductor is a telecommunication network that we had in old times (analogue network, ISDN,...). I hope this helps. If you need more info, you can contact me. Best regards, Boštjan -Original Message- From: Piotr Galka Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 5:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. Trying to understand 62368-1... I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other conductors'). The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table. USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be earthed, I think. Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports? I don't believe there is such requirement. My real problem to understand is as follows: Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and others). I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected equipment or not? To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access controller is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to disconnect from mains (if something is not connected than tools are not needed to make it being disconnected, I think). Being permanently connected equipment is the easiest way for controller to be excluded from 5.4.11. But if it is not permanently connected than its inputs are in the same situation as laptop USB ports I described first as more common to everyone. What I miss or wrongly understand? Regards Piotr Galka P.S. Last month free time I spend browsing about 2800 EMC-PSTC posts collected by my mail program for few years. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11
Trying to understand 62368-1... I have got laptop with type A power supply so it looks being not excluded from 5.4.11 by rules in 5.4.11.1. For me USB are external circuits indicated in Table 14, ID numbers 1 and 2 (I think USB is 'Paired conductor', but even not it certainly is 'Any other conductors'). The note in Table 14 about not taking into account transients for external circuits installed wholly within the same building is only about transients so I think it doesn't make USB being not indicated in table. USB cable can be used to connect laptop to printer and in printer USB can be earthed, I think. Dos this means that according to first sentence of 5.4.11.2 each USB port in this laptop should be separated from its other USB ports? I don't believe there is such requirement. My real problem to understand is as follows: Typical access controller have several not separated from each other inputs (several RFID reader inputs, door state control input, tamper inputs and others). I need to understand if the access controller powered from (external to it) 12V DC buffered (= having accu in it) supply is permanently connected equipment or not? To disconnect it from 12V supply you need tools, to disconnect 12V supply from mains you need tools, but 12V supply has isolation in it so access controller is not electrically connected to mains and 3.3.3.4 says about needing tools to disconnect from mains (if something is not connected than tools are not needed to make it being disconnected, I think). Being permanently connected equipment is the easiest way for controller to be excluded from 5.4.11. But if it is not permanently connected than its inputs are in the same situation as laptop USB ports I described first as more common to everyone. What I miss or wrongly understand? Regards Piotr Galka P.S. Last month free time I spend browsing about 2800 EMC-PSTC posts collected by my mail program for few years. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
