Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
1 degree per hour, I think you meant, not per second? John C _ From: Steli Loznen [mailto:st...@itl.co.il] Sent: 11 January 2012 12:33 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Hi Jacob, In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was less than 1 K/s. Maybe this can help. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Q.A Certification Manager Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29 Member of IEEE-PSES BoD 1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87 LOD 71100, ISRAEL Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203 Fax:+972-8-9153101 Mobile:+972-54-7245794 e-mail: st...@itl.co.il www.itl.co.il From: Jacob Gleeson [mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions _ In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
The IEC offers several definitions of thermal equilibrium in its Glossary. thermal equilibrium conditions stable temperature conditions indicated by temperature changes of no more than 3 K (5 °F) or 1 % of the absolute operating temperature, whichever is higher between two readings 15 min apart IEC 62282-2, ed. 1.0 (2004-07) thermal equilibrium variation of less than 1 K between any two out of three consecutive measurements made at an interval of 5 min IEC 61810-7, ed. 2.0 (2006-03) thermal equilibrium state reached when the observed temperature rise of any part of the welding equipment does not exceed 2 K/h IEC 62135-1, ed. 1.0 (2008-07) thermal equilibrium the state reached when the temperature rises of the several parts of the machine do not vary by more than a gradient of 2 K per hour NOTE Thermal equilibrium may be determined from the time-temperature rise plot when the straight lines between points at the beginning and end of two successive reasonable intervals each have a gradient of less than 2 K per hour. IEC 60034-1, ed. 12.0 (2010-02) Nice to see a harmonised approach from the various IEC TCs Regards Mick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
Luminaires 60598 has 1 degree per hour, just to add another variant. John C _ From: Mick Maytum [mailto:m.j.may...@ieee.org] Sent: 12 January 2012 10:47 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium The IEC offers several definitions of thermal equilibrium in its Glossary. thermal equilibrium conditions stable temperature conditions indicated by temperature changes of no more than 3 K (5 °F) or 1 % of the absolute operating temperature, whichever is higher between two readings 15 min apart IEC 62282-2, ed. 1.0 (2004-07) thermal equilibrium variation of less than 1 K between any two out of three consecutive measurements made at an interval of 5 min IEC 61810-7, ed. 2.0 (2006-03) thermal equilibrium state reached when the observed temperature rise of any part of the welding equipment does not exceed 2 K/h IEC 62135-1, ed. 1.0 (2008-07) thermal equilibrium the state reached when the temperature rises of the several parts of the machine do not vary by more than a gradient of 2 K per hour NOTE Thermal equilibrium may be determined from the time-temperature rise plot when the straight lines between points at the beginning and end of two successive reasonable intervals each have a gradient of less than 2 K per hour. IEC 60034-1, ed. 12.0 (2010-02) Nice to see a harmonised approach from the various IEC TCs Regards Mick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
BS 1363-1 also states temperature stability being taken as less than 1K rise within 1 h. I'm sticking with 60335-2-6, less than 1K in 15 min. From experience components used in the appliances I test tend to saturate way before the 15 minute period. Thanks again for all the feedback. Jacob. From: John Cotman john.cot...@conformance.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 12/01/2012 11:03 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium Luminaires 60598 has 1 degree per hour, just to add another variant. John C From: Mick Maytum [mailto:m.j.may...@ieee.org] Sent: 12 January 2012 10:47 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium The IEC offers several definitions of thermal equilibrium in its Glossary. thermal equilibrium conditions stable temperature conditions indicated by temperature changes of no more than 3 K (5 °F) or 1 % of the absolute operating temperature, whichever is higher between two readings 15 min apart IEC 62282-2, ed. 1.0 (2004-07) thermal equilibrium variation of less than 1 K between any two out of three consecutive measurements made at an interval of 5 min IEC 61810-7, ed. 2.0 (2006-03) thermal equilibrium state reached when the observed temperature rise of any part of the welding equipment does not exceed 2 K/h IEC 62135-1, ed. 1.0 (2008-07) thermal equilibrium the state reached when the temperature rises of the several parts of the machine do not vary by more than a gradient of 2 K per hour NOTE Thermal equilibrium may be determined from the time-temperature rise plot when the straight lines between points at the beginning and end of two successive reasonable intervals each have a gradient of less than 2 K per hour. IEC 60034-1, ed. 12.0 (2010-02) Nice to see a harmonised approach from the various IEC TCs Regards Mick - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
In message 4f0eba2a.8070...@ieee.org, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Mick Maytum m.j.may...@ieee.org writes: Nice to see a harmonised approach from the various IEC TCs The 60034 definition might be taken as more 'horizontal' (i.e. a reference definition that other committees should adopt) than the others. May years ago, someone I know proposed to IEC that standard definitions and other widely-used wording should be held in a database from which product committees should select what they want. It wasn't progressed - it was probably a bit before its time, but it is quite practicable now. Might take 100 years to agree on all the definitions, though. Can't be left to TC1 in isolation. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
In message 2CE75112DCA946C0B34BC8A9F9EBACF0@LENVOR61iJOHN, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, John Cotman john.cot...@conformance.co.uk writes: Luminaires 60598 has 1 degree per hour, just to add another variant. A not practical one: fluctuations of more than that typically occur in test area ambient temperatures, especially one that contains a 2 kW lamp! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
A not practical one: fluctuations of more than that typically occur in test area ambient temperatures, especially one that contains a 2 kW lamp! Steady state is reached when the *difference* between the ambient temperature and the test subject temperature levels out, you need to be monitoring the ambient temperature as well. T - Original Message - From: John Woodgate Sent: 01/12/12 11:26 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium In message 2CE75112DCA946C0B34BC8A9F9EBACF0@LENVOR61iJOHN, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, John Cotman john.cot...@conformance.co.uk writes: Luminaires 60598 has 1 degree per hour, just to add another variant. A not practical one: fluctuations of more than that typically occur in test area ambient temperatures, especially one that contains a 2 kW lamp! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at! http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
In message 20120112120006.5...@gmx.com, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Anthony Thomson ton...@europe.com writes: A not practical one: fluctuations of more than that typically occur in test area ambient temperatures, especially one that contains a 2 kW lamp! Steady state is reached when the *difference* between the ambient temperature and the test subject temperature levels out, you need to be monitoring the ambient temperature as well. Do all the definitions make that quite clear? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
TC 1 controls the IEC IEV. There you find in the fundamental definitions Area Electrical and magnetic devices / Operating conditions and testing IEV ref 151-16-33 thermal equilibrium state reached when the temperature of the parts of a component or equipment operating in a given environment no longer varies faster than a specified limit I remember when thermally testing CRT colour TVs that it took about 3 hours before the temperature stabilised. In this case, a fair bit of the power loss was power switching, which increased with the microclimate temperature. In part, it was more like a test for thermal runaway, with some of the TO-3 packaged transistors stabilising at about 130 degree C case temperature in a 40 degree C room ambient (Athens Valley in the summer I was told). I was involved with a variant of the TC 1 data base. You had to enter the data as HTML expressions in an Excel spreadsheet - a frustrating exercise if you were not proficient in HTML. Mick On 12/01/2012 11:24, John Woodgate wrote: In message 4f0eba2a.8070...@ieee.org, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Mick Maytum m.j.may...@ieee.org writes: Nice to see a harmonised approach from the various IEC TCs The 60034 definition might be taken as more 'horizontal' (i.e. a reference definition that other committees should adopt) than the others. May years ago, someone I know proposed to IEC that standard definitions and other widely-used wording should be held in a database from which product committees should select what they want. It wasn't progressed - it was probably a bit before its time, but it is quite practicable now. Might take 100 years to agree on all the definitions, though. Can't be left to TC1 in isolation. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
In message 4f0edf9b.8060...@ieee.org, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Mick Maytum m.j.may...@ieee.org writes: TC 1 controls the IEC IEV. There you find in the fundamental definitions Area Electrical and magnetic devices / Operating conditions and testing IEV ref 151-16-33 thermal equilibrium state reached when the temperature of the parts of a component or equipment operating in a given environment no longer varies faster than a specified limit IEV definitions are not unique, though, which is a fundamental problem. While some cleaning up has occurred, at one time there were 49 different definitions of 'level'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium
Following the 60335 series standards it explains that monitoring temperature involves recording delta T (temperature rise), this is the temperature which is used when considering steady state conditions. Jacob From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 12/01/2012 12:25 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions - née thermal equilibrium In message 20120112120006.5...@gmx.com, dated Thu, 12 Jan 2012, Anthony Thomson ton...@europe.com writes: A not practical one: fluctuations of more than that typically occur in test area ambient temperatures, especially one that contains a 2 kW lamp! Steady state is reached when the *difference* between the ambient temperature and the test subject temperature levels out, you need to be monitoring the ambient temperature as well. Do all the definitions make that quite clear? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
In message of513b71b3.135d5a90-on80257982.0039b786-80257982.0039e...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Unfortunately not. OK, I will forward your enquiry to a REAL expert on IEC 60335, but I can't promise an answer. QUOTE Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( ENDQUOTE -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
much apreciated. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 11:44 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of513b71b3.135d5a90-on80257982.0039b786-80257982.0039e...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Unfortunately not. OK, I will forward your enquiry to a REAL expert on IEC 60335, but I can't promise an answer. QUOTE Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( ENDQUOTE -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
Hi Jacob, In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was less than 1 K/s. Maybe this can help. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Q.A Certification Manager Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29 Member of IEEE-PSES BoD 1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87 LOD 71100, ISRAEL Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203 Fax:+972-8-9153101 Mobile:+972-54-7245794 e-mail: st...@itl.co.il www.itl.co.il From: Jacob Gleeson [mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.ukmailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.ukmailto:of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.commailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
Long ago, when I worked with heating and cooling equipment, Underwriters Laboratories defined temperature stability as follows. A temperature was considered to be constant when three successive readings taken at 10-min intervals indicated that stabilized temperatures were established (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two readings). If the temperatures measured were within 5 percent of the [temperature limits defined within the standard] the test was continued until two successive 10-min readings indicated constant temperatures. There was further clarification that if a temperature reading was cycling between two different points, the maximum temperature of each cycle was to be used. If the cycle time was less than 10 minutes, the peaks of cycles greater than 10 minutes apart were to be used for comparison. For cycles lasting longer than 10 minutes, the peaks of three consecutive cycles were to be used. Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Steli Loznen [mailto:st...@itl.co.il] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:33 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: Steady State Conditions Hi Jacob, In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was less than 1 K/s. Maybe this can help. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Q.A Certification Manager Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29 Member of IEEE-PSES BoD 1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87 LOD 71100, ISRAEL Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203 Fax:+972-8-9153101 Mobile:+972-54-7245794 e-mail: st...@itl.co.ilmailto:st...@itl.co.il www.itl.co.ilhttp://www.itl.co.il From: Jacob Gleeson [mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com]mailto:[mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.ukmailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.ukmailto:of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.commailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
There is a guideline in EN 60335-2-6, the part 2 for stationary cooking ranges, ovens, hobs and similar appliances. Note 101 under 11.7 indicates: Steady conditions are considered to be established if the temperature does not rise by more than 1 K in 15 min. I don't know if it's intended to be generally applicable, or if the same guidance is in other 60335 part 2 standards, but it seems as good a guide as any. Scott Aldous Compliance Engineer AE Solar Energy From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Steady State Conditions Long ago, when I worked with heating and cooling equipment, Underwriters Laboratories defined temperature stability as follows. A temperature was considered to be constant when three successive readings taken at 10-min intervals indicated that stabilized temperatures were established (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two readings). If the temperatures measured were within 5 percent of the [temperature limits defined within the standard] the test was continued until two successive 10-min readings indicated constant temperatures. There was further clarification that if a temperature reading was cycling between two different points, the maximum temperature of each cycle was to be used. If the cycle time was less than 10 minutes, the peaks of cycles greater than 10 minutes apart were to be used for comparison. For cycles lasting longer than 10 minutes, the peaks of three consecutive cycles were to be used. Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Steli Loznen [mailto:st...@itl.co.il] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:33 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: Steady State Conditions Hi Jacob, In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was less than 1 K/s. Maybe this can help. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Q.A Certification Manager Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29 Member of IEEE-PSES BoD 1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87 LOD 71100, ISRAEL Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203 Fax:+972-8-9153101 Mobile:+972-54-7245794 e-mail: st...@itl.co.ilmailto:st...@itl.co.il www.itl.co.ilhttp://www.itl.co.il From: Jacob Gleeson [mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com]mailto:[mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.ukmailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.ukmailto:of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.commailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
In message e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be22e...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro soft.com, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com writes: Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius. Not only that, (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two readings) implies you have to measure to 1 part in 1000 to have confidence in your 1%. So I'll assume they mean degrees Rankine, because then 1 part in 1000 is a realistic 0.5 degree. (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
In message 72efeae07a97414aaeb088f5cba78a061b6c0...@aedcexc09.aei.com, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com writes: Steady conditions are considered to be established if the temperature does not rise by more than 1 K in 15 min. I don't know if it's intended to be generally applicable, or if the same guidance is in other 60335 part 2 standards, but it seems as good a guide as any. It looks very sensible. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
Hello Scott, Unbelievable! I've read theses standards over and over again and still missed that. Thanks Scott and everyone else who replied, I will sleep well tonight;-) Kind regards Jacob. From: Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 15:40 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions There is a guideline in EN 60335-2-6, the part 2 for stationary cooking ranges, ovens, hobs and similar appliances. Note 101 under 11.7 indicates: “Steady conditions are considered to be established if the temperature does not rise by more than 1 K in 15 min.” I don’t know if it’s intended to be generally applicable, or if the same guidance is in other 60335 part 2 standards, but it seems as good a guide as any. Scott Aldous Compliance Engineer AE Solar Energy From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Steady State Conditions Long ago, when I worked with heating and cooling equipment, Underwriters Laboratories defined temperature stability as follows. “A temperature was considered to be constant when three successive readings taken at 10-min intervals indicated that stabilized temperatures were established (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two readings). If the temperatures measured were within 5 percent of the [temperature limits defined within the standard] the test was continued until two successive 10-min readings indicated constant temperatures.” There was further clarification that if a temperature reading was cycling between two different points, the maximum temperature of each cycle was to be used. If the cycle time was less than 10 minutes, the peaks of cycles greater than 10 minutes apart were to be used for comparison. For cycles lasting longer than 10 minutes, the peaks of three consecutive cycles were to be used. Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Steli Loznen [mailto:st...@itl.co.il] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:33 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: Steady State Conditions Hi Jacob, In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was less than 1 K/s. Maybe this can help. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Q.A Certification Manager Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29 Member of IEEE-PSES BoD 1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87 LOD 71100, ISRAEL Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203 Fax:+972-8-9153101 Mobile:+972-54-7245794 e-mail: st...@itl.co.il www.itl.co.il From: Jacob Gleeson [mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
They really should be asking for X successive readings spaced no more than Y minutes apart showing no further change in temperature. (it might show steady state or a small oscillation between readings) I've always used a precision (not accuracy) of 0.5 deg C for determining a trend. _ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Renewable Energies Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 01/11/2012 07:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message e9c52f9e77c43c49a56a22691b3680be22e...@tk5ex14mbxc301.redmond.corp.micro soft.com, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com writes: Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius. Not only that, (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two readings) implies you have to measure to 1 part in 1000 to have confidence in your 1%. So I'll assume they mean degrees Rankine, because then 1 part in 1000 is a realistic 0.5 degree. (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
I suppose it really does depend on the thermal mass (specific heat?) of the thing being measured, but a 15 minute interval and 1C certainly seems reasonable. When in doubt, good old engineering judgement is always a reliable fallback. _ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Renewable Energies Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 01/11/2012 07:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions There is a guideline in EN 60335-2-6, the part 2 for stationary cooking ranges, ovens, hobs and similar appliances. Note 101 under 11.7 indicates: “Steady conditions are considered to be established if the temperature does not rise by more than 1 K in 15 min.” I don’t know if it’s intended to be generally applicable, or if the same guidance is in other 60335 part 2 standards, but it seems as good a guide as any. Scott Aldous Compliance Engineer AE Solar Energy From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:45 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Steady State Conditions Long ago, when I worked with heating and cooling equipment, Underwriters Laboratories defined temperature stability as follows. “A temperature was considered to be constant when three successive readings taken at 10-min intervals indicated that stabilized temperatures were established (no more than a 1- percent net increase between the last two readings). If the temperatures measured were within 5 percent of the [temperature limits defined within the standard] the test was continued until two successive 10-min readings indicated constant temperatures.” There was further clarification that if a temperature reading was cycling between two different points, the maximum temperature of each cycle was to be used. If the cycle time was less than 10 minutes, the peaks of cycles greater than 10 minutes apart were to be used for comparison. For cycles lasting longer than 10 minutes, the peaks of three consecutive cycles were to be used. Unfortunately, UL talks in terms of percentages for temperatures. I always hate when UL does this, but I believe that their intention is to indicate percentage in terms of the temperature in degrees Celsius. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Steli Loznen [mailto:st...@itl.co.il] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:33 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: Steady State Conditions Hi Jacob, In some testing procedures, the temperature steady state is defined as the status when the variation of the temperature, measured with thermocouple, was less than 1 K/s. Maybe this can help. Best Regards, Steli Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE I.T.L (Product Testing) Ltd. Q.A Certification Manager Convener IEC/TC62/SC62A/MT29 Member of IEEE-PSES BoD 1, Bat Sheva St., P.O.Box 87 LOD 71100, ISRAEL Phone:+972-8-9186100 int.203 Fax:+972-8-9153101 Mobile:+972-54-7245794 e-mail: st...@itl.co.il www.itl.co.il From: Jacob Gleeson [mailto:jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions Unfortunately not. From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 11/01/2012 09:51 Subject: Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions In message of830d029f.67d294e3-on80257982.0032cbc6-80257982.00341...@meluk.co.uk, dated Wed, 11 Jan 2012, jacob.glee...@eu.panasonic.com writes: Does anyone know of a clear definition of steady state conditions when conducting heating tests? I have checked a number of 60335 series part 2 standards and came up blank for a definition:-( It's probably in Part 1. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp
Re: [PSES] Steady State Conditions
Temperature rise is always an exponential curve. I've looked and looked for a means of predicting steady-state temperature during the initial rise of temperature from the cold state. It can't be done. Once the data is reasonably complete, one can determine the constants for the curve. Because temperature rise is exponential, the temperature never achieves steady-state no matter how long the test is run. Of course, eventually the temperature change approaches infinitesimally small. I don't like steady-state determinations such as degrees change per time interval. If the part in question has a small thermal mass, or has a high thermal resistance, the temperature may never achieve a change of less than 1 C (or 1 K) regardless of the time interval. Just the circulation of air will prevent a steady state. I like to plot the curve as the part heats. As the curve flattens, you know that you are approaching the maximum temperature. And, you immediately know whether or not the temperature, regardless of time, will exceed the maximum allowable temperature (unless, of course, the temperature is borderline to the maximum). (With today's data loggers, plotting a curve is quite easy, and doesn't require manpower to record each data point.) If the curve is well below the limit, then there is no need to be precise about a steady-state temperature. Likewise, if the curve is above the limit. The only case where steady-state temperature is critical is when the steady-state is very close to the maximum temperature. So, the standards are quite arbitrary as to what temperature change in what time interval comprises steady-state. Just follow the standard. If there is no definition of steady state, then plot the curve along with the limit line. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
