Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[Steve Blackmore]

On Wed, 23 May 2012 06:45:22 -0500, you wrote:

>Good point, are there any two controls from different manufacturers that 
>are completely portable between each other?

Unfortunately not in my experience.

>I know from reading my CNC g code manuals from other machines that I 
>have that even generation to generation of the same controller the g 
>code is not portable.

Fanuc 

>So the question is do you cobble up your software just to be portable 
>when no one else seems to do this...
>
>Just open up the list of post processors on most cam software and you 
>see hundreds of choices usually...

There's hundreds in my copy of FeatureCam. It's a PITA. I do some Gcode
optimisation for a few engineering companies that farm some of their
work out and getting the right post processor that works is problematic
and it's often the small things that catch you out.

As Stuart says the integrator often changes things too, so you can't
even rely on a stock post processor :(

However, both LinuxCNC and Mach used the same base for their code and
the radically different behaviour of not stipulating the H value on a
G43 can be disastrous as I know from bitter experience.

LinuxCNC - not using the H value loads the offset for the current tool.
Mach3 - not using the H value sets the tool offset to zero !

The Fanuc style where the H value must be stipulated is much safer.

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[dave]

On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:36:39 -0400
"Kent A. Reed"  wrote:

> On 5/23/2012 11:03 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:42:23 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:
> >
> >> On 5/23/2012 9:42 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> >>> BP nipples using #209 primer
> >> That certainly was a "shot in the dark" given the nature of this
> >> group, Gene. I'd think there are gunsmithing and shooting groups
> >> online that are better able to answer.
> >>
> >> Just for grins, I stuck the above line into Google and got back
> >> pages of hits. Most, I'm sure, aren't the specific answer to your
> >> specific question, but it shows there's lots else is out there on
> >> sites with root names like knightrifles.com, gunloads.com,
> >> thehighroad.org, mlagb.com, tcarms.com, ammosmith.com,
> >> thefiringline.com, huntingnet.com.
> >>
> >> Good luck.
> > So did I Kent (Google that is), lots of hits, but mostly SWAG's.  I
> > am inclined to give the 5 hole design a 2nd try, but with #74 holes
> > instead of #68's, as that seems to have all the quacks and waddles
> > of a duck called too much.  We'll see as soon as the weather clears
> > and its not the weekend. There is a small, very old but well
> > maintained, cemetery across the parking lot from the range and a
> > notice hanging on a roof support post that it will be closed Sunday
> > and Monday out of respect for the cemetery visitors.
> >
> > One thing that seems to run a common thread is the requirement for
> > a rigid, low headspace support behind the #209 primer, like the
> > Omega has. It closes on the primer, holding it solidly with no
> > headspace at all.  Anything that allows primer gasses another exit
> > besides the flash hole(s) seems to be considered very poor form.
> > And this one will need a latch designed to catch and hold the
> > striker in the fired position before that no leakage condition will
> > be a reality.
> >
> > As for the blowback, I think the latch is the best solution, short
> > of declaring this particular design a total loss.  I've got too
> > much time in carving not one, but 2 stocks for it over the years
> > I've had it, and I like my artwork.  Maple, thumbhole style, cherry
> > grip&  tip caps, thick recoil pad, the obvious giveaway is the BP
> > ramrod hanging under the barrel, otherwise it looks like a pretty
> > modern gun.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> And of course Dave did answer your query, which proves once again the 
> breadth of knowledge in this group.
> 
> I never had a hankering for BP long guns but there sure are a lot of 
> enthusiasts in this area of Western MD, Northern VA, and WV. There's
> no shortage of volunteers for any battlefield reenactment.
> 
> The latch sounds like a good idea (I hate thinking about anything, 
> striker, gas, or otherwise, kicking toward your face) but I have no
> idea how hard it will be to implement.
> 
> Now BP cannons I could see myself getting involved with...kind of an 
> East Coast mythbuster...making smoke and noise in equal quantities
> and bouncing cannonballs through peoples' backdoors. Heck, they even
> get paid to do it.
> 
> Regards,
> Kent
> 
I'd feel better is the cover/latch had a gas vent to move gas away from
the shooter if something ruptures. Some muzzleloaders drill a small
vent hole coaxial with the drum; apparently it helps ignition but I
don't know why. There was a story in "Muzzle Blasts" about a
muzzleloader the owner called "old butt burner". It really spewed a
flame to the right when it fired. The shooter to the right was bending
over with his rear too close to the vent and he did a dive over his
bench when it went off. 
The cleanest solution I've seen was a .25 pistol cartridge (CF) used to
ignite the charge. About at the end of the active use of muzzleloading
shotguns some were ignited by .22 rimfire with powder but, of course,
no lead. However, mz shotguns operate at about 8 Ksi opposed to rifle
that may go as high as 25 Ksi with 18 Ksi being more normal. .22
rimfire are at about 11 Ksi. 

Most of the guys I know are using CCI Magnum #11 caps and getting good
ignition. 

A couple of years ago I did a golf ball mortar using plain old
fashioned fuse; was good for about 150 yards. :-)

'Nuf rambling for this time of the night. 

Dave
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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[gene heskett]

On Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:51:53 AM Kent A. Reed did opine:

> On 5/23/2012 11:03 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:42:23 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:
> >> On 5/23/2012 9:42 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> >>> BP nipples using #209 primer
> >> 
> >> That certainly was a "shot in the dark" given the nature of this
> >> group, Gene. I'd think there are gunsmithing and shooting groups
> >> online that are better able to answer.
> >> 
> >> Just for grins, I stuck the above line into Google and got back pages
> >> of hits. Most, I'm sure, aren't the specific answer to your specific
> >> question, but it shows there's lots else is out there on sites with
> >> root names like knightrifles.com, gunloads.com, thehighroad.org,
> >> mlagb.com, tcarms.com, ammosmith.com, thefiringline.com,
> >> huntingnet.com.
> >> 
> >> Good luck.
> > 
> > So did I Kent (Google that is), lots of hits, but mostly SWAG's.  I am
> > inclined to give the 5 hole design a 2nd try, but with #74 holes
> > instead of #68's, as that seems to have all the quacks and waddles of
> > a duck called too much.  We'll see as soon as the weather clears and
> > its not the weekend. There is a small, very old but well maintained,
> > cemetery across the parking lot from the range and a notice hanging
> > on a roof support post that it will be closed Sunday and Monday out
> > of respect for the cemetery visitors.
> > 
> > One thing that seems to run a common thread is the requirement for a
> > rigid, low headspace support behind the #209 primer, like the Omega
> > has. It closes on the primer, holding it solidly with no headspace at
> > all.  Anything that allows primer gasses another exit besides the
> > flash hole(s) seems to be considered very poor form.  And this one
> > will need a latch designed to catch and hold the striker in the fired
> > position before that no leakage condition will be a reality.
> > 
> > As for the blowback, I think the latch is the best solution, short of
> > declaring this particular design a total loss.  I've got too much time
> > in carving not one, but 2 stocks for it over the years I've had it,
> > and I like my artwork.  Maple, thumbhole style, cherry grip&  tip
> > caps, thick recoil pad, the obvious giveaway is the BP ramrod hanging
> > under the barrel, otherwise it looks like a pretty modern gun.
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> And of course Dave did answer your query, which proves once again the
> breadth of knowledge in this group.
> 
And precisely the reason I asked here before trying to filter some meaning 
out of the google returns.

> I never had a hankering for BP long guns but there sure are a lot of
> enthusiasts in this area of Western MD, Northern VA, and WV. There's no
> shortage of volunteers for any battlefield reenactment.
> 
> The latch sounds like a good idea (I hate thinking about anything,
> striker, gas, or otherwise, kicking toward your face) but I have no idea
> how hard it will be to implement.

That detail seems easy enough at first thought.  The devil of course is in 
the details.  Like how sharp will my drill bits have to be to bore the 
pivot pin hole the catch latch will pivot on vertically thru the side of 
the action.  And how to keep it from sticking out like a sore thumb, even 
uglier than the bolt release on the left side of a P-17 action.

Its like a lot of my thought projects, the first step is getting off my 
duff with intentions of doing it.  ;-)

> Now BP cannons I could see myself getting involved with...kind of an
> East Coast mythbuster...making smoke and noise in equal quantities and
> bouncing cannonballs through peoples' backdoors. Heck, they even get
> paid to do it.
> 
> Regards,
> Kent
> 
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Peter]

 

Hi Kent,

The GeckoDrive G320X (latest drives) now have inbuilt encoder failure
detection, which asserts the Fault output when the failure is detected.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

--- 
Peter Homann 
http://www.homanndesigns.com/store

On Thu 24/05/12 1:06 PM , "Kent A. Reed"  wrote:On 5/23/2012 10:45 PM, Jon
Elson wrote:
 > Kent A. Reed wrote:
 >> Of course all roads lead to LinuxCNC, but is there some reason one
 >> couldn't/wouldn't start with one of the many microcontroller chips or
 >> even ARM-based SoCs and build a separate watchdog for the purpose of
 >> detecting and stopping servo runaway in its tracks? It would seem to
me
 >> almost any has more than enough capability to do so.
 >>
 > Measuring the output of the drive seems like an important measurement.
 > It might be
 > hard to get this from a G320 drive, or a number of others as the
 > voltages are
 > high and the average reading would be much better than seeing all the
PWM
 > pulses. I think a very simple circuit, largely analog plus some one
 > shots and
 > a logic gate could do it. Probably 3 chips per axis. Some RC feeding an
 > opto-coupler, a 74HC123 and a gate package. If the output to the motor
 > exceeds some value (maybe 5 V) for some short time, and there are no
 > pulses on BOTH encoder signals, that is a fault, and it trips the
E-stop.
 > Parts cost should be about $3 per axis, in single quantities.
 >
 > Jon
 >
 > -

 Well, shoot, can't we make it more complicated? This sounds like a Don
 Lancaster solution straight out of the pages of Popular Electronics :-)
 In the good old days I could think this way but 40 years of digital
 electronics have fried my brain.

 All kidding aside---thanks for an elegant solution, Jon.

 Regards,
 Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jeshua Lacock]

On May 23, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

>  I think a very simple circuit, largely analog plus some one 
> shots and
> a logic gate could do it.  Probably 3 chips per axis.  Some RC feeding an
> opto-coupler, a 74HC123 and a gate package.  If the output to the motor
> exceeds some value (maybe 5 V) for some short time, and there are no
> pulses on BOTH encoder signals, that is a fault, and it trips the E-stop.
> Parts cost should be about $3 per axis, in single quantities.

Hi Jon,

Sounds perfect! Sign me up!

;)

Would you be interested in designing and building me a few? Just let me know 
what it might cost (on or off list is fine with me).

I don't mind paying to develop it and you could open source the schematic or 
keep it to yourself.

The only other solution (more of a work-around really) I have been able to 
think of is before I power on the servo PSU check to make sure the DRO is 
working, then power on. Then when the machine is on, the HAL settings provided 
by Andy would detect if a encoder goes offline while running.

Certainly not as ideal as a automated install and forget system in place, but 
not a overly painful startup process either.


Best,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 11:03 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:42:23 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:
>
>> On 5/23/2012 9:42 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>>> BP nipples using #209 primer
>> That certainly was a "shot in the dark" given the nature of this group,
>> Gene. I'd think there are gunsmithing and shooting groups online that
>> are better able to answer.
>>
>> Just for grins, I stuck the above line into Google and got back pages of
>> hits. Most, I'm sure, aren't the specific answer to your specific
>> question, but it shows there's lots else is out there on sites with root
>> names like knightrifles.com, gunloads.com, thehighroad.org, mlagb.com,
>> tcarms.com, ammosmith.com, thefiringline.com, huntingnet.com.
>>
>> Good luck.
> So did I Kent (Google that is), lots of hits, but mostly SWAG's.  I am
> inclined to give the 5 hole design a 2nd try, but with #74 holes instead of
> #68's, as that seems to have all the quacks and waddles of a duck called
> too much.  We'll see as soon as the weather clears and its not the weekend.
> There is a small, very old but well maintained, cemetery across the parking
> lot from the range and a notice hanging on a roof support post that it will
> be closed Sunday and Monday out of respect for the cemetery visitors.
>
> One thing that seems to run a common thread is the requirement for a rigid,
> low headspace support behind the #209 primer, like the Omega has. It closes
> on the primer, holding it solidly with no headspace at all.  Anything that
> allows primer gasses another exit besides the flash hole(s) seems to be
> considered very poor form.  And this one will need a latch designed to
> catch and hold the striker in the fired position before that no leakage
> condition will be a reality.
>
> As for the blowback, I think the latch is the best solution, short of
> declaring this particular design a total loss.  I've got too much time in
> carving not one, but 2 stocks for it over the years I've had it, and I like
> my artwork.  Maple, thumbhole style, cherry grip&  tip caps, thick recoil
> pad, the obvious giveaway is the BP ramrod hanging under the barrel,
> otherwise it looks like a pretty modern gun.
>
> Cheers, Gene

And of course Dave did answer your query, which proves once again the 
breadth of knowledge in this group.

I never had a hankering for BP long guns but there sure are a lot of 
enthusiasts in this area of Western MD, Northern VA, and WV. There's no 
shortage of volunteers for any battlefield reenactment.

The latch sounds like a good idea (I hate thinking about anything, 
striker, gas, or otherwise, kicking toward your face) but I have no idea 
how hard it will be to implement.

Now BP cannons I could see myself getting involved with...kind of an 
East Coast mythbuster...making smoke and noise in equal quantities and 
bouncing cannonballs through peoples' backdoors. Heck, they even get 
paid to do it.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:05:16 PM dave did opine:

> On Wed, 23 May 2012 21:42:10 -0400
> 
> gene heskett  wrote:
> > Greets all;
> > 
> > Does anyone have any links in their bookmarks that might give me a
> > 'rule of thumb' at least for BP nipples using #209 primers?  I have
> > the 2nd one at the "all the cylindrical work done" stage, and so far
> > a single #74 drill (0.0235") in the center of the end of it, which is
> > obviously smaller than a factory nipple has, with that one being
> > about a #67, and 2 more that same size on the sides so they blow out
> > thru the circular gap between the breech plug and the end of the
> > nipple.  I'm out of #67 and #68 drill bits with only 2 indexes,
> > chinese of course & only 1 out of 3 actually sharp.  So instead of
> > drilling one hole all the way thru, I thought I'd drill 2 all the way
> > thru giving 5 .0235" vent holes.
> > 
> > I tried the first of these nipple designs out Monday and got a 2"
> > group, but with 5 #68 holes, the blow back is pretty strong, backing
> > the striker up and lifting the primer plumb clear of the nipple with
> > only a 50Gr load of BlackHorn 209.  That of course lets out quite a
> > bit of gas, none of which seemed to get to me although there was
> > quite a cloud of it the breeze carried into my face for a couple
> > seconds.
> > 
> > I've considered cobbling up a latch for the striker so that when it
> > comes down, its snap locked, holding the primer in place, requiring
> > the latch to be released to cock it again.
> > 
> > The TC Black Diamonds are not exactly a closed breech design, so the
> > latch it closed idea is a good one, just need to work out the
> > details.  That's what you get for something that wally sold for $200
> > several years ago, but it still shoots better than the $600 Omega
> > they just put a new barrel on since the OEM barrel was damaged from
> > the gitgo.  It shot a 3" group Monday with the same load the Black
> > Diamond used for a 2" group, but hey, that is about 3 feet smaller
> > than it did OOTB with the damaged barrel.
> > 
> > Anyway, this is about flash hole sizes.
> > 
> > Does anybody have any comments/links to offer?
> > 
> > Cheers, Gene
> 
> You might take a look at the size of the two holes in a Berdan setup.
> Maybe start small and work up 'til you get reliable ignition. There was
> some information floating around a few years ago about some Berdan
> primed 7.62 x 51 that shot groups about half the size of the Boxer
> primed stuff. You get to balance the venting of small holes against the
> blow-back from chamber pressure. I think it is pretty empirical.
> 
> Dave

I don't believe I have a Berden primed case in the 20 pound lot of them!

My fault of course but I've never pack-ratted that stuff away from the 
range.

As for the empirical part, I can drill a too small out out easy enough.  I 
just hope I can detect the sweet spot if there is one.

Thanks Dave

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 10:45 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Kent A. Reed wrote:
>> Of course all roads lead to LinuxCNC, but is there some reason one
>> couldn't/wouldn't start with one of the many microcontroller chips or
>> even ARM-based SoCs  and build a separate watchdog for the purpose of
>> detecting and stopping servo runaway in its tracks? It would seem to me
>> almost any has more than enough capability to do so.
>>
> Measuring the output of the drive seems like an important measurement.
> It might be
> hard to get this from a G320 drive, or a number of others as the
> voltages are
> high and the average reading would be much better than seeing all the PWM
> pulses.  I think a very simple circuit, largely analog plus some one
> shots and
> a logic gate could do it.  Probably 3 chips per axis.  Some RC feeding an
> opto-coupler, a 74HC123 and a gate package.  If the output to the motor
> exceeds some value (maybe 5 V) for some short time, and there are no
> pulses on BOTH encoder signals, that is a fault, and it trips the E-stop.
> Parts cost should be about $3 per axis, in single quantities.
>
> Jon
>
> -

Well, shoot, can't we make it more complicated? This sounds like a Don 
Lancaster solution straight out of the pages of Popular Electronics :-) 
In the good old days I could think this way but 40 years of digital 
electronics have fried my brain.

All kidding aside---thanks for an elegant solution, Jon.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:42:23 PM Kent A. Reed did opine:

> On 5/23/2012 9:42 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> > BP nipples using #209 primer
> 
> That certainly was a "shot in the dark" given the nature of this group,
> Gene. I'd think there are gunsmithing and shooting groups online that
> are better able to answer.
> 
> Just for grins, I stuck the above line into Google and got back pages of
> hits. Most, I'm sure, aren't the specific answer to your specific
> question, but it shows there's lots else is out there on sites with root
> names like knightrifles.com, gunloads.com, thehighroad.org, mlagb.com,
> tcarms.com, ammosmith.com, thefiringline.com, huntingnet.com.
> 
> Good luck.

So did I Kent (Google that is), lots of hits, but mostly SWAG's.  I am 
inclined to give the 5 hole design a 2nd try, but with #74 holes instead of 
#68's, as that seems to have all the quacks and waddles of a duck called 
too much.  We'll see as soon as the weather clears and its not the weekend.  
There is a small, very old but well maintained, cemetery across the parking 
lot from the range and a notice hanging on a roof support post that it will 
be closed Sunday and Monday out of respect for the cemetery visitors.

One thing that seems to run a common thread is the requirement for a rigid, 
low headspace support behind the #209 primer, like the Omega has. It closes 
on the primer, holding it solidly with no headspace at all.  Anything that 
allows primer gasses another exit besides the flash hole(s) seems to be 
considered very poor form.  And this one will need a latch designed to 
catch and hold the striker in the fired position before that no leakage 
condition will be a reality.

As for the blowback, I think the latch is the best solution, short of 
declaring this particular design a total loss.  I've got too much time in 
carving not one, but 2 stocks for it over the years I've had it, and I like 
my artwork.  Maple, thumbhole style, cherry grip & tip caps, thick recoil 
pad, the obvious giveaway is the BP ramrod hanging under the barrel, 
otherwise it looks like a pretty modern gun.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 23 May 2012, Jon Elson wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 21:31:26 -0500
> From: Jon Elson 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?
> 
> Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>> Which is a good illustration of the limitations of step/dir servos since
>> LinuxCNC can't "see" whats happening in the drive, which rules out a lot of
>> hardware fault mitigation strategies.
>>
> Well, really, detecting all possible cases of a failed encoder is not
> that easy.
> In this case, using my Gecko Interface board, LinuxCNC CAN see the encoder,
> and would have E-stopped the system, IF it had seen uncommanded movement.
> But, with the encoder not powered or otherwise not working, it gets no
> indication of the runaway.
>
> Jon


That was my point: step/dir servos do not provide a easy way to detect a 
runaway. If LinuxCNC is running the loop, a saturated PID output is an easy 
way for systems with "normal" servos to detect runaway. This works fine with 
unpowered or open wire encoder situations.

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Jon Elson]

Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> 2012/5/23 Dave :
>   
>> Probably the wrong page...
>>
>> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
>> 
>
> I like their description for D2700MUD board. Especially last sentence:
> "2.13 GHz dual core Intel Atom D2700 (Cedar Trail) fanless processor
> with integrated graphics. Low-power Mini-ITX mainboard with digital
> output, ideal for industrial applications that do not require an
> extended production life."
>
> Can anyone explain, what do they mean?
>
>   
Probably means they will be making a different board next year, a little 
faster
or something, or slightly different peripheral combination.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

Kent A. Reed wrote:
> Of course all roads lead to LinuxCNC, but is there some reason one 
> couldn't/wouldn't start with one of the many microcontroller chips or 
> even ARM-based SoCs  and build a separate watchdog for the purpose of 
> detecting and stopping servo runaway in its tracks? It would seem to me 
> almost any has more than enough capability to do so.
>   
Measuring the output of the drive seems like an important measurement.  
It might be
hard to get this from a G320 drive, or a number of others as the 
voltages are
high and the average reading would be much better than seeing all the PWM
pulses.  I think a very simple circuit, largely analog plus some one 
shots and
a logic gate could do it.  Probably 3 chips per axis.  Some RC feeding an
opto-coupler, a 74HC123 and a gate package.  If the output to the motor
exceeds some value (maybe 5 V) for some short time, and there are no
pulses on BOTH encoder signals, that is a fault, and it trips the E-stop.
Parts cost should be about $3 per axis, in single quantities.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

John Kasunich wrote:
>   
> I guess I must have missed something.  I never saw him say he was using
> drives with step/dir inputs.
Gecko G320
>   If that is the case, then he probably
> isn't
> using PID loops at all - the drives are closing the position loop and
> LinuxCNC is treating them like steppers.
>
>   
But, he is.  This is using my Universal Stepper Controller with the 
Gecko Interface
so it sees the encoder both places (drives and USC).  So, it is truly a 
servo, although
a messy one.  The G320 has its own loop, and then LinuxCNC has another loop.
You can turn down the Gecko gain and then do most of the positioning loop in
LinuxCNC, and let the Gecko drive handle most of the velocity control.  
In some
setups, especially with low DC voltage and high armature resistance, the 
G320
doesn't have anywhere enough P gain, so the LinuxCNC PID can help
considerably to reduce following error.

But, still, if the encoder fails, there are many cases where LinuxCNC 
will not
see a following error and not know there is a problem.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> Which is a good illustration of the limitations of step/dir servos since 
> LinuxCNC can't "see" whats happening in the drive, which rules out a lot of 
> hardware fault mitigation strategies.
>   
Well, really, detecting all possible cases of a failed encoder is not 
that easy.
In this case, using my Gecko Interface board, LinuxCNC CAN see the encoder,
and would have E-stopped the system, IF it had seen uncommanded movement.
But, with the encoder not powered or otherwise not working, it gets no
indication of the runaway.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 7:44 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 24 May 2012 00:37, Claude Zervas  wrote:
>
>> According to "The NIST RS274NGC Interpreter, version 3, NISTIR 6556
>> (2000)", section 3.5.4, the G04 parameter 'P' is in seconds...
>>
>> there you have it.
> Yes and no. Because NIST wrote EMC…
>

And NIST does not promulgate engineering standards despite the presence 
of the word "Standards" in its name*. The NIST Interpreter contained in 
EMC isn't a standard. RS274NGC isn't a standard. It's quite possible 
that the parameter 'P' is defined to be in seconds because Tom Kramer 
had to make a choice in the face of the silence of RS274D in the matter 
as already reported by Jon. It's also quite possible that this 
definition came about in the RS274NGC project and Tom merely implemented 
it. Maybe someone kept good notes:-)

RS274D is a standard because it was developed and approved under the 
ANSI organizational umbrella and rules for voluntary consensus standards.

DIN 66025 is a standard because it was developed and approved under the 
DIN rules for such. It's my understanding that the actual technical 
content concerning G-codes is substantially the same as RS274D, but I 
never paid the "heinously expensive" price to find out.

ISO 6983 is a standard because it was developed and approved under the 
ISO rules for such. I make a similar claim and disclaimer for the actual 
technical content concerning G-codes.

Legally, each of these is known as a de facto standard as opposed to a 
de jure standard. A buyer and a seller may choose to use them to guide 
their commercial transactions but there's no law requiring them to.

Regards,
Kent

*PS - Back the 1980s when Congress was preparing to reorganize, expand, 
and rename the National Bureau of Standards, some of us thought it 
should be called "Standards-R-Us". The pedestrian name "National 
Institute of Standards and Technology" was chosen instead. Spoil sports.

PPS - this name change gave me a great opening line for my talks, "I 
used to be a bureaucrat but now I've been institutionalized."



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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[dave]

On Wed, 23 May 2012 21:42:10 -0400
gene heskett  wrote:

> Greets all;
> 
> Does anyone have any links in their bookmarks that might give me a
> 'rule of thumb' at least for BP nipples using #209 primers?  I have
> the 2nd one at the "all the cylindrical work done" stage, and so far
> a single #74 drill (0.0235") in the center of the end of it, which is
> obviously smaller than a factory nipple has, with that one being
> about a #67, and 2 more that same size on the sides so they blow out
> thru the circular gap between the breech plug and the end of the
> nipple.  I'm out of #67 and #68 drill bits with only 2 indexes,
> chinese of course & only 1 out of 3 actually sharp.  So instead of
> drilling one hole all the way thru, I thought I'd drill 2 all the way
> thru giving 5 .0235" vent holes.
> 
> I tried the first of these nipple designs out Monday and got a 2"
> group, but with 5 #68 holes, the blow back is pretty strong, backing
> the striker up and lifting the primer plumb clear of the nipple with
> only a 50Gr load of BlackHorn 209.  That of course lets out quite a
> bit of gas, none of which seemed to get to me although there was
> quite a cloud of it the breeze carried into my face for a couple
> seconds.
> 
> I've considered cobbling up a latch for the striker so that when it
> comes down, its snap locked, holding the primer in place, requiring
> the latch to be released to cock it again.
> 
> The TC Black Diamonds are not exactly a closed breech design, so the
> latch it closed idea is a good one, just need to work out the
> details.  That's what you get for something that wally sold for $200
> several years ago, but it still shoots better than the $600 Omega
> they just put a new barrel on since the OEM barrel was damaged from
> the gitgo.  It shot a 3" group Monday with the same load the Black
> Diamond used for a 2" group, but hey, that is about 3 feet smaller
> than it did OOTB with the damaged barrel.
> 
> Anyway, this is about flash hole sizes.
> 
> Does anybody have any comments/links to offer?
> 
> Cheers, Gene

You might take a look at the size of the two holes in a Berdan setup. 
Maybe start small and work up 'til you get reliable ignition. There was
some information floating around a few years ago about some Berdan
primed 7.62 x 51 that shot groups about half the size of the Boxer
primed stuff. You get to balance the venting of small holes against the
blow-back from chamber pressure. I think it is pretty empirical. 

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>
> I think the saturated PID output is a fairly good way to detect this 
> condition 
> and certainly would have workied in this circumstance.
No, I believe not.  This happened probably before the LinuxCNC PID loop 
was even
turned on.  It was purely the G320 coming active and trying to null out 
a one-count
offset from power on.  The encoder was presumably not providing motion 
detection
to the PC or the Gecko, and so LinuxCNC had no reason to have a non-zero PID
output even if F2 had been pressed and it was in "machine on".
> Errors when moving are easier to detect and handled by the built-in following 
> error limits.
>   
Yes, that's true.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Need Help from U.S. Users & Companies - APT (Automatically Programmed Tools)

[Stuart Stevenson]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Dave Caroline wrote:
> > I have spent a while trying to get the APT360 version 64bit compliant
> > and have to agree about common block missmatch.
> > This code does have unmatched common blocks in differing phases of the
> code
> > which Im not sure f2c and gcc get right.
> >
> The only solution is to make the common blocks an include file.  If the
> compiler doesn't
> support that, write a script that inserts the include file at the right
> point.  Edit the files
> in the raw form, the script inserts the commons, and then the compiler
> processes
> the processed files.
>
a kind of fortran++?


> > f2c has trouble with some of the evil constructs that APT uses
> >
> Hopefully no computed goto's and 1960-vintage syntax of that sort.
> Also, the Hollerith-encoded char strings are machine dependent.
>
> Jon
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star? (BeagleBone q.)

[Yishin Li]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 7:37 AM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 24 May 2012 00:23, Yishin Li  wrote:
>
> > Releasing HDL of the FPGA design is another issue. IMHO, it doesn't help
> > too much for the development by releasing the HDL source code. AFAIK, the
> > hostmot2 logic is only maintained by mesa; there is no community for
> > developing it yet.
>
> This is true, but a number of us can (and do) build custom firmware
> combinations or change pinouts to suit specific requirements.
> The Firmwares distributed with LinuxCNC are built by the project, not by
> Mesa.
>
> I see. One more question: Pico-Systems' Universal PWM Controller also has
a FPGA on it. How does its firmware/source-code get distributed?

Yishin
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Re: [Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 9:42 PM, gene heskett wrote:
> BP nipples using #209 primer

That certainly was a "shot in the dark" given the nature of this group, 
Gene. I'd think there are gunsmithing and shooting groups online that 
are better able to answer.

Just for grins, I stuck the above line into Google and got back pages of 
hits. Most, I'm sure, aren't the specific answer to your specific 
question, but it shows there's lots else is out there on sites with root 
names like knightrifles.com, gunloads.com, thehighroad.org, mlagb.com, 
tcarms.com, ammosmith.com, thefiringline.com, huntingnet.com.

Good luck.

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[Emc-users] Flash hole drill sizes for BP with 209 ignition?

[gene heskett]

Greets all;

Does anyone have any links in their bookmarks that might give me a 'rule of 
thumb' at least for BP nipples using #209 primers?  I have the 2nd one at 
the "all the cylindrical work done" stage, and so far a single #74 drill 
(0.0235") in the center of the end of it, which is obviously smaller than a 
factory nipple has, with that one being about a #67, and 2 more that same 
size on the sides so they blow out thru the circular gap between the breech 
plug and the end of the nipple.  I'm out of #67 and #68 drill bits with 
only 2 indexes, chinese of course & only 1 out of 3 actually sharp.  So 
instead of drilling one hole all the way thru, I thought I'd drill 2 all 
the way thru giving 5 .0235" vent holes.

I tried the first of these nipple designs out Monday and got a 2" group, 
but with 5 #68 holes, the blow back is pretty strong, backing the striker 
up and lifting the primer plumb clear of the nipple with only a 50Gr load 
of BlackHorn 209.  That of course lets out quite a bit of gas, none of 
which seemed to get to me although there was quite a cloud of it the breeze 
carried into my face for a couple seconds.

I've considered cobbling up a latch for the striker so that when it comes 
down, its snap locked, holding the primer in place, requiring the latch to 
be released to cock it again.

The TC Black Diamonds are not exactly a closed breech design, so the latch 
it closed idea is a good one, just need to work out the details.  That's 
what you get for something that wally sold for $200 several years ago, but 
it still shoots better than the $600 Omega they just put a new barrel on 
since the OEM barrel was damaged from the gitgo.  It shot a 3" group Monday 
with the same load the Black Diamond used for a 2" group, but hey, that is 
about 3 feet smaller than it did OOTB with the damaged barrel.

Anyway, this is about flash hole sizes.

Does anybody have any comments/links to offer?

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[dave]

On Wed, 23 May 2012 16:57:16 -0400
"Kent A. Reed"  wrote:

> On 5/23/2012 4:33 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, May 23, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> >> 2012/5/23 Dave:
> >>> Probably the wrong page...
> >>>
> >>> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
> >> I like their description for D2700MUD board. Especially last
> >> sentence: "2.13 GHz dual core Intel Atom D2700 (Cedar Trail)
> >> fanless processor with integrated graphics. Low-power Mini-ITX
> >> mainboard with digital output, ideal for industrial applications
> >> that do not require an extended production life."
> >>
> >> Can anyone explain, what do they mean?
> > It means that like any other consumer electronic product, if you
> > come back in two years and ask to buy one just like the one that
> > is in your machine tool, they will laugh at you and ask why you
> > want an antique.
> 
> More particularly, it reflects the announcement by Intel that the
> Atom Processor D2700 is in "end of life" status [already!].
> 
> > The consumer electronic world changes so fast that stuff is obsolete
> > before the industrial world even has a chance to design it in.  For
> > machines that are expected to last a decade of more<...>
> 
> The Intel Atom Processor N2800 will also reach "end of life" status
> much sooner than ten years from now. There is nothing about shortened 
> production life in the LogicSupply description about the respective 
> board simply because at the moment the CPU is still in "launched"
> status.
> 
> I won't bore you with an enumeration of the products I own which
> reached "end of life" long before I did.
> 
> Regards,
> Kent

Well, that is positive news! :-)

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[andy pugh]

On 24 May 2012 00:37, Claude Zervas  wrote:

> According to "The NIST RS274NGC Interpreter, version 3, NISTIR 6556
> (2000)", section 3.5.4, the G04 parameter 'P' is in seconds...
>
> there you have it.

Yes and no. Because NIST wrote EMC…

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star? (BeagleBone q.)

[andy pugh]

On 24 May 2012 00:23, Yishin Li  wrote:

> Releasing HDL of the FPGA design is another issue. IMHO, it doesn't help
> too much for the development by releasing the HDL source code. AFAIK, the
> hostmot2 logic is only maintained by mesa; there is no community for
> developing it yet.

This is true, but a number of us can (and do) build custom firmware
combinations or change pinouts to suit specific requirements.
The Firmwares distributed with LinuxCNC are built by the project, not by Mesa.

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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Claude Zervas]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Claude Zervas  wrote:
> ...
> It's a bit surprising to me to find out there isn't some standards
> body (like IEEE or ISO) that oversees a G code standard, considering
> it's been used for such a long time by so many.
>...

Good grief I'm stupid, a brief check on Wikipedia shows ISO 6983, DIN
66025, and of course EIA's RS274D. Naturally these are all behind
heinously expensive paywalls...

According to "The NIST RS274NGC Interpreter, version 3, NISTIR 6556
(2000)", section 3.5.4, the G04 parameter 'P' is in seconds...

there you have it.

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star? (BeagleBone q.)

[Yishin Li]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Ralph Stirling <
ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu> wrote:

>
> > Our repositories are at github. Please refer to this wiki page to access
> it:
> > http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ArtekBranch
> >
> > The BeagleBone related modifications are at "beagle" branch.
> > I will prepare documentation about installing Ubuntu on BeagleBone.
> >
>
> This is really very interesting news, Yishin.  Are you going to release the
> FPGA hdl as opensource (like Peter has done with hostmot2 logic for the
> Mesa cards)?  Are you going to have a USB/FPGA board available for
> purchase?
>
> -- Ralph
>
> Ralph,

I think Mesa's USB/FPGA board (7i43) is good; I've been using it on a few
industrial automation machines and plasma cutters for more than 2 years.
It's stable, it's with good quality, and it's cheap.

Releasing HDL of the FPGA design is another issue. IMHO, it doesn't help
too much for the development by releasing the HDL source code. AFAIK, the
hostmot2 logic is only maintained by mesa; there is no community for
developing it yet.

We have plan to sell our HDL design with whole verification set. I think
people who paid for it have more motivation to improve it. For people who
would just like to use it, we have our firmware available on github
repository. It's at configs/araisrobo/ directory. People could try it with
laptop/PC and Mesa's 7i43 board.

Yishin
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Javier Ros]

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Yishin Li  wrote:

> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Greg Bernard  >wrote:
>
> > Yishin-
> > Do you actually have the Beaglebone running LinuxCNC? I know Jon Elson
> has
> > been waiting for a very long time for someone to write an RTAI kernel for
> > that platform.
> >
> > Greg,
>
> Yes, we have LinuxCNC running with UbuntuLinux 12.04 armhf (hard-floating)
> on BeagleBone.
> The floating point performance is good for trajectory planning with 0.65ms
> period.
> As we moved the realtime time master from host into FPGA, we no longer need
> RTAI.
>

What do you mean with this: that all the HAL RT modules that your
application needs
are running now in the FPGA?.

Can you elaborate a litle about what parts are running in the beagle and
what in the
FPGA. I presume you have a non RT HAL module to interface the 7i43 through
the USB
port, haven't you?.

I didn't know such kind things could be done using FPGA, although I think
they must be
 really difficult and laborious.

I'm really impressed.

Javier

PD: Isn't this an answer to the survival of LinuxCNC without a Linux RT
(RTAI Xenomai or other alternative),
and even to the latency killer hardware?. A posssible path to its extension
to other OS?
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star? (BeagleBone q.)

[Ralph Stirling]

> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 15:41:01 +0800
> From: Yishin Li 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?
>
> Our repositories are at github. Please refer to this wiki page to access it:
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ArtekBranch
>
> The BeagleBone related modifications are at "beagle" branch.
> I will prepare documentation about installing Ubuntu on BeagleBone.
>
> Yishin
> --
> ARAIS ROBOT TECHNOLOGY
> www.araisrobo.com

This is really very interesting news, Yishin.  Are you going to release the
FPGA hdl as opensource (like Peter has done with hostmot2 logic for the
Mesa cards)?  Are you going to have a USB/FPGA board available for purchase?

-- Ralph

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Dave]

On 5/23/2012 4:33 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>
>> 2012/5/23 Dave:
>>  
>>> Probably the wrong page...
>>>
>>> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
>>>
>> I like their description for D2700MUD board. Especially last sentence:
>> "2.13 GHz dual core Intel Atom D2700 (Cedar Trail) fanless processor
>> with integrated graphics. Low-power Mini-ITX mainboard with digital
>> output, ideal for industrial applications that do not require an
>> extended production life."
>>
>> Can anyone explain, what do they mean?
>>  
> It means that like any other consumer electronic product, if you
> come back in two years and ask to buy one just like the one that
> is in your machine tool, they will laugh at you and ask why you
> want an antique.
>
> The consumer electronic world changes so fast that stuff is obsolete
> before the industrial world even has a chance to design it in.  For
> machines that are expected to last a decade or two, that can be a
> nightmare.  Their answer to that is usually a separate product line,
> that has half the performance at five times the price, but will
> remain in production for a long time.
>
> In that paragraph they are saying that if you need "an extended
> production life", then this board is not for you.  Get your wallet
> out and go to the expensive industrial department.  But if you won't
> need to worry about replacing it a couple years from now, then it
> would be good for an industrial application.
>
>
>

>>Get your wallet
out and go to the expensive industrial department.<<


Until the industrial company is bought up by the competition and that 
product line is "discontinued".   ;-)

"'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and 
taxes."  Benjamin Franklin - 1789

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Claude Zervas]

Thanks for all your answers!
I did indeed read the LinuxCNC G code manual and tested it before
asking my question. I just wanted a clarification since I'm just
learning G code and some of it, like some of you have mentioned,
doesn't seem to be very standardized.
It's a bit surprising to me to find out there isn't some standards
body (like IEEE or ISO) that oversees a G code standard, considering
it's been used for such a long time by so many.

If any of you are interested I've pushed all my code to github:
https://github.com/utlco/tcnc

It has a cubic Bezier approximator using biarcs and I made it as
modular as I could so that parts could be reused for different
projects. I started out trying to use the Gcodetools Inkscape
extension but the code was very difficult to read and modify so I just
wrote my own using some academic papers about biarcs... I'm still
refining the biarc approximator to optimize curve accuracy. In
particular, the determination of the biarc joint and the algorithm to
calculate the Hausdorff distance between the resulting arc and
original curve are both a little rudimentary at this point.
It seems to work pretty well though and I'm using it now to generate G
code for a three axis machine with a tangential tool (under LinuxCNC
control of course).

thanks again,
- Claude

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> Kent A. Reed wrote:
>> On 5/23/2012 5:53 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately the
>>> G-code standard is not very standard.
>>>
>> Every information-representation standard I ever met was encumbered with
>> exceptions, variants, special cases. After all, they're written by
>> committees (on some of which I served, so I'm guilty too).
>>
> Yeah, I looked this up in the RS-274D manual, and incredibly, they do
> not specify the
> units of time for a G04!
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Frank Tkalcevic]

I was in the market for a mini-ITX motherboard at the beginning of the year.
I wanted that board, but it hadn't been released yet.

I ended up getting a D2700 based one...

http://www.mitxpc.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MBNC9KDL2700

I don't remember the numbers, but the latency was good.  

I did have some problems getting some device drivers working - things like
the Sensor monitors.  The CPU/Chipset was too new for the 10.04 kernel to
know about them.

Frank



> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew [mailto:parallel.kinemat...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 May 2012 3:10 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just ran into Intel DN2800MT mini-ITX motherboard.
> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-
> motherboards/desktop-board-dn2800mt.html
> It has HDMI, LVDS (can be useful for LCD panels), LPT header, two miniPCIe
> slots (SSD and wifi if necessary) and built-in PSU! (8-19V DC input
required).
> PCIe slot is suitable for 6i25, which is probably very new, it's even not
in
> MESA's price list, I guess the price is compatible to 5i25's.
> Very thin board, all looks perfect. Costs $105. But the most important
> question is:
> Anyone tested the latency?
> 
> Regards,
> Andrew
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 4:33 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>> 2012/5/23 Dave:
>>> Probably the wrong page...
>>>
>>> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
>> I like their description for D2700MUD board. Especially last sentence:
>> "2.13 GHz dual core Intel Atom D2700 (Cedar Trail) fanless processor
>> with integrated graphics. Low-power Mini-ITX mainboard with digital
>> output, ideal for industrial applications that do not require an
>> extended production life."
>>
>> Can anyone explain, what do they mean?
> It means that like any other consumer electronic product, if you
> come back in two years and ask to buy one just like the one that
> is in your machine tool, they will laugh at you and ask why you
> want an antique.

More particularly, it reflects the announcement by Intel that the Atom 
Processor D2700 is in "end of life" status [already!].

> The consumer electronic world changes so fast that stuff is obsolete
> before the industrial world even has a chance to design it in.  For
> machines that are expected to last a decade of more<...>

The Intel Atom Processor N2800 will also reach "end of life" status much 
sooner than ten years from now. There is nothing about shortened 
production life in the LogicSupply description about the respective 
board simply because at the moment the CPU is still in "launched" status.

I won't bore you with an enumeration of the products I own which reached 
"end of life" long before I did.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/5/23 John Kasunich :
> Their answer to that is usually a separate product line,
> that has half the performance at five times the price, but will
> remain in production for a long time.

Got it! It is meant to be the production life of the board itself, not
its productive life, when used in industrial machine...

-- 
Viesturs

If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 12:53 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 23 May 2012 15:06, Kent A. Reed  wrote:
>
>> I got as far as bringing up my own custom build of Linux with a cut-down
>> X, but then it got taken up as a display for my grandkids
> This looks vaguely interesting in this context:
> https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/android-builders-summit/mauerer
>

Cool. His slides are a bit sketchy and he's talking about PREEMPT_RT, 
but it's progress. All his latency numbers are captured in 
difficult-to-assess bar graphs but they look to be the right order of 
magnitude.

On the same site I found the slides for Yaghmour's talk "Leveraging 
Android's Linux Heritage". They were both informative and useful in the 
sense that they added to my belief that I should stay away. His Goal 
slide reads

 - Opening as many cans of worms as possible
 -  Can "Linux and Android Coexist and Interact?"

I grant the first line is intended to be a humorous ice breaker as shown 
by it's being struck through, but the rest of his talk makes clear to me 
there really are some cans of worms lying in wait.

Obviously, chroot'ing an Android device is often possible but I think 
I'll stick to devices I can work with from the bare metal up.

Of course, if someone else wants to get their hands dirty, I'll be glad 
to hold their coat:-)

Thanks for the pointer, Andy. Even with aggregators like 
news.ycombinator.com at my fingertips, I miss a lot.

Regards,
Kent

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[John Kasunich]

On Wed, May 23, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> 2012/5/23 Dave :
> > Probably the wrong page...
> >
> > http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
> 
> I like their description for D2700MUD board. Especially last sentence:
> "2.13 GHz dual core Intel Atom D2700 (Cedar Trail) fanless processor
> with integrated graphics. Low-power Mini-ITX mainboard with digital
> output, ideal for industrial applications that do not require an
> extended production life."
> 
> Can anyone explain, what do they mean?

It means that like any other consumer electronic product, if you 
come back in two years and ask to buy one just like the one that
is in your machine tool, they will laugh at you and ask why you
want an antique.

The consumer electronic world changes so fast that stuff is obsolete
before the industrial world even has a chance to design it in.  For
machines that are expected to last a decade or two, that can be a
nightmare.  Their answer to that is usually a separate product line,
that has half the performance at five times the price, but will
remain in production for a long time.

In that paragraph they are saying that if you need "an extended
production life", then this board is not for you.  Get your wallet
out and go to the expensive industrial department.  But if you won't
need to worry about replacing it a couple years from now, then it
would be good for an industrial application.


-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[John Murphy]

Those 'options' are what card to plug into the pcie..

Here is the 525: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/d525mw



On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Eric Keller  wrote:
> Dave,
> If you select any options, it says Jetway.
> Eric
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Dave  wrote:
>
>> Probably the wrong page...
>>
>> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On 5/23/2012 3:50 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
>> > when I looked on logicsupply, they were just selling jetways.  Or am I
>> > reading the page wrong?
>> >
>> > On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Dave  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 5/23/2012 2:29 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Dave   wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  That board is really low power and the wide input range makes it
>> perfect
>>  to run in a vehicle.
>> 
>>  That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
>>  power supply.
>> 
>>  I was having a little bit of a problem finding an Intel branded board
>> 
>> >> from
>> >>
>> 
>> >>> a vendor I know.  Any recommendations?
>> >>> Eric
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> For this board or a D525MW?
>> >>
>> >> Newegg sells the D525MW and you can find them on Amazon also.
>> >>
>> >> I haven't checked Amazon for the DN2800MT yet.    But it is probably on
>> >> Amazon now also.
>> >>
>> >> Logic supply has been around for a while.  I wouldn't be hesitant to buy
>> >> from them.
>> >>
>> >> I've spent hundreds/thousands with Mini-box.com over the years.  No
>> >> problems with them either.
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Eric Keller]

Dave,
If you select any options, it says Jetway.
Eric

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Dave  wrote:

> Probably the wrong page...
>
> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 5/23/2012 3:50 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> > when I looked on logicsupply, they were just selling jetways.  Or am I
> > reading the page wrong?
> >
> > On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Dave  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On 5/23/2012 2:29 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Dave   wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>  That board is really low power and the wide input range makes it
> perfect
>  to run in a vehicle.
> 
>  That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
>  power supply.
> 
>  I was having a little bit of a problem finding an Intel branded board
> 
> >> from
> >>
> 
> >>> a vendor I know.  Any recommendations?
> >>> Eric
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> For this board or a D525MW?
> >>
> >> Newegg sells the D525MW and you can find them on Amazon also.
> >>
> >> I haven't checked Amazon for the DN2800MT yet.But it is probably on
> >> Amazon now also.
> >>
> >> Logic supply has been around for a while.  I wouldn't be hesitant to buy
> >> from them.
> >>
> >> I've spent hundreds/thousands with Mini-box.com over the years.  No
> >> problems with them either.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/5/23 Dave :
> Probably the wrong page...
>
> http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom

I like their description for D2700MUD board. Especially last sentence:
"2.13 GHz dual core Intel Atom D2700 (Cedar Trail) fanless processor
with integrated graphics. Low-power Mini-ITX mainboard with digital
output, ideal for industrial applications that do not require an
extended production life."

Can anyone explain, what do they mean?

-- 
Viesturs

If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 3:29 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012, at 12:13 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> andy pugh wrote:
>>> On 23 May 2012 07:08, Jeshua Lacock  wrote:
 I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition,
>>> It should be possible to check if your PID is saturated for more than
>>> a second or so.
>>>
>> But, this still doesn't detect a servo runaway when the Gecko drive
>> is started up.  LinuxCNC is not sending any command to the drive at
>> this point.  So, before F2 is pressed, PID output is clamped at zero.
> I guess I must have missed something.  I never saw him say he was using
> drives with step/dir inputs.  If that is the case, then he probably
> isn't
> using PID loops at all - the drives are closing the position loop and
> LinuxCNC is treating them like steppers.
>
> I automatically assumed that servo meant servo - a PID loop in EMC,
> driving either an analog output (DAC or PWM) to a drive, or direct
> PWM output to a power stage.  In that scenario, there are multiple
> ways to address the problem.  But if the loop is being closed in the
> drive, then it is really just a glorified stepper machine, and
> LinuxCNC can't do a damn thing to help.
>

Of course all roads lead to LinuxCNC, but is there some reason one 
couldn't/wouldn't start with one of the many microcontroller chips or 
even ARM-based SoCs  and build a separate watchdog for the purpose of 
detecting and stopping servo runaway in its tracks? It would seem to me 
almost any has more than enough capability to do so.

Just color me curious...

Regards,
Kent




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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Dave]

Probably the wrong page...

http://www.logicsupply.com/categories/mainboards/intel_atom

Dave


On 5/23/2012 3:50 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> when I looked on logicsupply, they were just selling jetways.  Or am I
> reading the page wrong?
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Dave  wrote:
>
>
>> On 5/23/2012 2:29 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
>>  
>>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Dave   wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
 That board is really low power and the wide input range makes it perfect
 to run in a vehicle.

 That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
 power supply.

 I was having a little bit of a problem finding an Intel branded board
  
>> from
>>  
  
>>> a vendor I know.  Any recommendations?
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>
>> For this board or a D525MW?
>>
>> Newegg sells the D525MW and you can find them on Amazon also.
>>
>> I haven't checked Amazon for the DN2800MT yet.But it is probably on
>> Amazon now also.
>>
>> Logic supply has been around for a while.  I wouldn't be hesitant to buy
>> from them.
>>
>> I've spent hundreds/thousands with Mini-box.com over the years.  No
>> problems with them either.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[Dave]

On 5/23/2012 2:10 PM, Mark Cason wrote:
> On 05/23/2012 09:59 AM, Dave wrote:
>
>> On 5/23/2012 8:39 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> The Nook Color has really good build quality also since I believe
>> Barnes and Noble subsidized the unit since it was originally geared to
>> be a "reader" for their E books.
>>  
> If I'm remembering correctly, B&N was selling the Nook Color at just
> a couple dollars less than what it cost's to make them.  If that bothers
> anybody, buy a couple of "REAL" books, and a cup of their overpriced
> coffee, and you will be good.  BTW, B&N replaced the Nook Color with the
> Nook Tablet.  The Nook Tablet can run "Other OS's" via the SD slot,
> without interfering the Nooks OS.  Which means you can have a dual use
> tablet.
>
>
>> I have often wondered if it can be used for other purposes also - like a
>> cheap MMI for machine control.
>>  
> Depending on how LinuxCNC can be set up, yes.
>
> I run a flight simulator program called Flightgear on my Laptop, and
> I use my android phone as the joystick.  Specifically, all the tilt
> sensors, control various axis of the planes, as well as well as having
> sliders for speed, trim, ailerons, and brakes.  I connects to my laptop
> via WiFi, and runs a telnet connection to Flightgear.
>
>

>>If I'm remembering correctly, B&N was selling the Nook Color at just
a couple dollars less than what it cost's to make them.<<

I read that also.

I didn't spring for the "high dollar" Nook Tablet and honestly I wasn't 
sure how much we would use them.   We use them a lot.   The Nook Tablet 
was still pricey at Xmas and they hadn't figured out how to hack the 
tablet yet at the time.
Looks like they are approaching $150 now.
I didn't root the Nook Colors, they boot off the cards.  That way if 
they break, I pop the card, and take them back to Barnes and Noble for a 
replacement.
The original OS remains untouched.

If you feel guilty buying a Nook device after doing the CyanogenMOD to 
it, you can go to the Android Market and download the Barnes and Noble 
app and then download some books for $ also.
You can also download the Amazon app and buy Ebooks from Amazon.

The best of both worlds.  :-)

Netflix also runs nicely on it as does Pandora.

Not exactly what B&N first envisioned I am sure, but they sure do work well.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Eric Keller]

when I looked on logicsupply, they were just selling jetways.  Or am I
reading the page wrong?

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Dave  wrote:

> On 5/23/2012 2:29 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> > On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Dave  wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> That board is really low power and the wide input range makes it perfect
> >> to run in a vehicle.
> >>
> >> That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
> >> power supply.
> >>
> >> I was having a little bit of a problem finding an Intel branded board
> from
> >>
> > a vendor I know.  Any recommendations?
> > Eric
> >
>
>
> For this board or a D525MW?
>
> Newegg sells the D525MW and you can find them on Amazon also.
>
> I haven't checked Amazon for the DN2800MT yet.But it is probably on
> Amazon now also.
>
> Logic supply has been around for a while.  I wouldn't be hesitant to buy
> from them.
>
> I've spent hundreds/thousands with Mini-box.com over the years.  No
> problems with them either.
>
> Dave
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[John Kasunich]

On Wed, May 23, 2012, at 12:13 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> andy pugh wrote:
> > On 23 May 2012 07:08, Jeshua Lacock  wrote:
> >> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition,
> >
> > It should be possible to check if your PID is saturated for more than
> > a second or so.
> >   
> But, this still doesn't detect a servo runaway when the Gecko drive
> is started up.  LinuxCNC is not sending any command to the drive at
> this point.  So, before F2 is pressed, PID output is clamped at zero.

I guess I must have missed something.  I never saw him say he was using
drives with step/dir inputs.  If that is the case, then he probably
isn't
using PID loops at all - the drives are closing the position loop and
LinuxCNC is treating them like steppers.

I automatically assumed that servo meant servo - a PID loop in EMC,
driving either an analog output (DAC or PWM) to a drive, or direct
PWM output to a power stage.  In that scenario, there are multiple
ways to address the problem.  But if the loop is being closed in the 
drive, then it is really just a glorified stepper machine, and 
LinuxCNC can't do a damn thing to help.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jan de Kruyf]

Hallo,
Sorryto hear of this disaster.

The old Siemens way was to lock out the drive if the output of the speed
opamp (so including I ) was at the limit for longer than 100msecs.
The modern way on difgital servo drives is "trip on loss of communication
lasting longer than 2 servo cycles." And a host of trip conditions of
course thart the servo knows to detect.

Also there exists a very simple error detection circuit for 8 wire
encoders, but the details have escaped me. I would have to look in the
archives to find it again.

Hardware wise the easiest way is to provide impact absorbers at the end of
the travel. 1 or 2 pieces of 30mm thinwalled pipe work wonders.
But be sure to test out the pipe you plan to use. It should collapse to
+-30% of its length on impact.

Cheers,

j.


On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:

> On Wed, 23 May 2012, Jon Elson wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 12:13:34 -0500
> > From: Jon Elson 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  >
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?
> >
> > andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 23 May 2012 07:08, Jeshua Lacock  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition,
> >>>
> >>
> >> It should be possible to check if your PID is saturated for more than
> >> a second or so.
> >>
> > But, this still doesn't detect a servo runaway when the Gecko drive is
> > started up.
> > LinuxCNC is not sending any command to the drive at this point.  So,
> before
> > F2 is pressed, PID output is clamped at zero.
> >> Note that I am not sure what amp-fault-in actually does, but it was
> >> conveniently available and sounds about right.
> >>
> > It is a signal provided by some servo amplifiers to indicate they are in
> > fault status.
> >
> > Jon
>
> Which is a good illustration of the limitations of step/dir servos since
> LinuxCNC can't "see" whats happening in the drive, which rules out a lot of
> hardware fault mitigation strategies.
>
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Dave]

On 5/23/2012 2:29 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Dave  wrote:
>
>
>>
>> That board is really low power and the wide input range makes it perfect
>> to run in a vehicle.
>>
>> That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
>> power supply.
>>
>> I was having a little bit of a problem finding an Intel branded board from
>>  
> a vendor I know.  Any recommendations?
> Eric
>


For this board or a D525MW?

Newegg sells the D525MW and you can find them on Amazon also.

I haven't checked Amazon for the DN2800MT yet.But it is probably on 
Amazon now also.

Logic supply has been around for a while.  I wouldn't be hesitant to buy 
from them.

I've spent hundreds/thousands with Mini-box.com over the years.  No 
problems with them either.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Chris Radek]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 07:38:06AM -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
> 
> If your PID loop is saturated during normal operation, that
> means you are no longer accurately controlling tool position,


Yes!  I have pid.N.saturated hooked directly to axis.N.amp-fault-in on
both my machines.  Properly tuned they never saturate even for one
cycle.

Also, the smart (for 1985?) servo amps on my mill have an adjustment
that will fault if the tach voltage exceeds a setpoint.  This is one
possible way to detect runaway in the analog realm involving a minimum
of hardware and no software.

Also of course limit switches disable the amps directly in hardware,
but I don't have any delusion that it would stop before hitting the
end of travel.  Maybe Z going up would, but that's it.  

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Re: [Emc-users] Need Help from U.S. Users & Companies - APT (Automatically Programmed Tools)

[dave]

On Wed, 23 May 2012 11:21:36 -0500
Jon Elson  wrote:

> dave wrote:
> >
> > I'm hoping we can keep the entire thing in FORTRAN just because it
> > is supposed to work there.
> OK, what is the status of open-source FORTRAN compilers?  I know
> there were some
> problems with the old f77 compiler that was part of GNU.  How about
> gdb support,
> and maybe electric fence?  We have some FORTRAN diehards at work, so
> I am a little familiar with this.  (Very little.)
> 
> Jon

this might clear up a few questions.

http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gfortran/Preprocessing-and-conditional-compilation.html#Preprocessing-and-conditional-compilation

Dave
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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Eric Keller]

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Dave  wrote:

>
>
> That board is really low power and the wide input range makes it perfect
> to run in a vehicle.
>
> That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
> power supply.
>
> I was having a little bit of a problem finding an Intel branded board from
a vendor I know.  Any recommendations?
Eric
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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[Mark Cason]

On 05/23/2012 09:59 AM, Dave wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 8:39 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> The Nook Color has really good build quality also since I believe 
> Barnes and Noble subsidized the unit since it was originally geared to 
> be a "reader" for their E books.

   If I'm remembering correctly, B&N was selling the Nook Color at just 
a couple dollars less than what it cost's to make them.  If that bothers 
anybody, buy a couple of "REAL" books, and a cup of their overpriced 
coffee, and you will be good.  BTW, B&N replaced the Nook Color with the 
Nook Tablet.  The Nook Tablet can run "Other OS's" via the SD slot, 
without interfering the Nooks OS.  Which means you can have a dual use 
tablet.

> I have often wondered if it can be used for other purposes also - like a
> cheap MMI for machine control.

   Depending on how LinuxCNC can be set up, yes.

   I run a flight simulator program called Flightgear on my Laptop, and 
I use my android phone as the joystick.  Specifically, all the tilt 
sensors, control various axis of the planes, as well as well as having 
sliders for speed, trim, ailerons, and brakes.  I connects to my laptop 
via WiFi, and runs a telnet connection to Flightgear.

-- 
-Mark

Ne M'oubliez   ---Family Motto
Hope for the best, plan for the worst   ---Personal Motto


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 23 May 2012, Jon Elson wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 12:13:34 -0500
> From: Jon Elson 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?
> 
> andy pugh wrote:
>> On 23 May 2012 07:08, Jeshua Lacock  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition,
>>>
>>
>> It should be possible to check if your PID is saturated for more than
>> a second or so.
>>
> But, this still doesn't detect a servo runaway when the Gecko drive is
> started up.
> LinuxCNC is not sending any command to the drive at this point.  So, before
> F2 is pressed, PID output is clamped at zero.
>> Note that I am not sure what amp-fault-in actually does, but it was
>> conveniently available and sounds about right.
>>
> It is a signal provided by some servo amplifiers to indicate they are in
> fault status.
>
> Jon

Which is a good illustration of the limitations of step/dir servos since 
LinuxCNC can't "see" whats happening in the drive, which rules out a lot of 
hardware fault mitigation strategies.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Jon Elson]

Kent A. Reed wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 5:53 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>   
>> Unfortunately the
>> G-code standard is not very standard.
>> 
> Every information-representation standard I ever met was encumbered with 
> exceptions, variants, special cases. After all, they're written by 
> committees (on some of which I served, so I'm guilty too).
>   
Yeah, I looked this up in the RS-274D manual, and incredibly, they do 
not specify the
units of time for a G04!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 12:51:44 PM Dave did opine:

> Sounds like a good idea.  :-)
> Looks like you can get some good deals on Ebay!New, some custom
> bamboo fly rods are crazy expensive.
> That one you linked even still has the spare tip!  Nice.
> 
> Dave
> 
I think I'm in the wrong business.  In the 60's, we could buy, for about a 
tenner, 9 foot, spare tip, Chinese bamboo rods.  One caveat, you had to 
hang them up by the tip.  Lean them in the corner and the next time you 
reached for it, it had a very pronounced curve that took 3 days or so to 
straighten.  With a #9 WF line on it, they swung effortlessly and I could 
lay a little green popper bug, or a #4 fly within a foot of any rise within 
25 yards of where I stood.  No glass rod I have ever owned since can make 
that claim with the same automatic reel & similar line.  They simply do not 
move as one continuous extension of your arm like bamboo does, too light, 
and too stiff.

Truly, in fly fishing, bamboo is where its at.  One of those old rods 
survived long enough for me to take it fishing on the San Juan River just 
below Navajo Dam in the late 70's when I was the CE at KIVA-TV in 
Farmington NM.  Nothing beats pulling on chest waders in 110F heat, 
standing waist deep in 38 degree water, with the air temp above that water 
somewhere around 110F, and have a 12" Brown grab your barb-less fly and 
find the energy to dance for you for 2 or 3 minutes before finally getting 
a grip on him to unhook and release him.  Your hand will feel like its 
frozen and he is almost as hard.  Firm, truly wild trout.  I can, after 
having done it several times, understand why the sports rag writers are 
literally orgasmic when they write about that, the most famous 3 miles of 
trout water on the planet.  A long ways from enough civilization to have a 
pop machine, and the ice in your cooler will be long gone by the time you 
get there, it is never crowded even on a busy day.  And, considering that 
all the kokanee salmon you can snag is just 5 miles away in the lake 
itself, a fisherman is truly in hog heaven there.

[...]

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Jon Elson]

andy pugh wrote:
> On 23 May 2012 06:35, Claude Zervas  wrote:
>
>   
>> Just wondering if someone might know why LinuxCNC interprets the G04
>> dwell command parameter as seconds instead of milliseconds?
>> 
>
> The glib answer is "because that is how the programmer coded it". I
> suspect that the G04 code has been unchanged for a long time.
> A quick Google shows that some controllers use seconds and some use
> milliseconds, and some let you choose. (And a mention appears on the
> LinuxCNC Wiki of an Okuma controller that uses hundredths of seconds).
>
>   
And, I believe it is a floating point value, so you can specify G04 0.05 for
50 ms.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

andy pugh wrote:
> On 23 May 2012 07:08, Jeshua Lacock  wrote:
>
>   
>> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition,
>> 
>
> It should be possible to check if your PID is saturated for more than
> a second or so.
>   
But, this still doesn't detect a servo runaway when the Gecko drive is 
started up.
LinuxCNC is not sending any command to the drive at this point.  So, before
F2 is pressed, PID output is clamped at zero.
> Note that I am not sure what amp-fault-in actually does, but it was
> conveniently available and sounds about right.
>   
It is a signal provided by some servo amplifiers to indicate they are in 
fault status.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Dave]

On 5/23/2012 12:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
>> That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range
>> power supply.
>>
>>  
> The AC-input supplies for these micro-ITX boards are quite cheap.  You
> can get
> a mini case with power supply and front panel buttons and indicators for
> less than $50.  The DC-input supplies are more expensive.
>
> Jon
>
>

I have had bad luck with cheap case/power supply combos, so I avoid them 
like the plague.

If you read the hardware reviews you can generally figure out the junk 
power supplies from the good ones.  The junk power supplies
will barely make it beyond the warranty period.   If I put a PC into a 
machine, I don't want to get a call back on that PC for at least 2 
years, preferably 3 or more, otherwise my reputation takes
a hit and it jeopardizes future work.   Most of these PCs are never 
turned off.  Intel is warranting their boards for 3 years now, so if the 
power supply holds up, all should be good for at least 2 years after the 
initial burn in.

The wide range input DC supplies are quite expensive.

http://www.mini-box.com/DC-DC
For instance the M3-ATX and the M4-ATX are nice power supplies but they 
are pricey at $69 to $89.

I have an M4-ATX and while it does work well, it is still $89.

The M3-ATX is good for 6-24 volts with 6 volts only being ok for short 
periods (while cranking the engine).

This new Intel board is good for 8-19 volts DC +/-10% and normally a car 
with a good battery and starter will not drop below 8 volts while 
cranking so this board could be run
directly off a car electrical system without a power supply, and it 
should survive an engine startup  - saving $69 for the M3-ATX.   I think 
that Mini-box just lost a bunch of business!

That board is also very low power.  A lot less than a D525MW.

Good for mobile applications.

Dave






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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

> On May 23, 2012, at 2:01 AM, Claude Froidevaux wrote:
>
>   
>> 1)  make a hal check, that disable drive if more than 5-10 consecutive 
>> sample period with maximum drive output without any encoder change
>>
>> 
This won't work in Jeshua's setup.  When coming out of E-stop, there is 
no commanded
motion, and the positioning loop has not yet started.  So, LinuxCNC 
doesn't expect any
movement.  The G320 drive commands movement to null out the position error,
which may only be one or two counts.  If the encoder does not provide 
feedback,
there is no indication that a runaway is happening.

LinuxCNC never sees the drive command, it just sends step pulses to the 
drive.
If it could compare the commanded position to the actual position, that 
might
be helpful, but the hardware doesn't allow this.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> Jon, can your power switch and braking module (and/or the brake on the Gecko 
> Interface) be used like for something like this?
>   
This is EXACTLY the condition it is designed for, BUT, it needs to know 
that a problem
exists.  You should have hit the E-stop button when the runaway started, 
you probably
could have stopped it in the middle.  One thing you can do is move the 
machine a little
by hand and see if LinuxCNC shows the movement on the screen.  Don't hit 
F1 until
you know the encoders are working.  If so, the encoders
are being read by the PC, at least, and you should get a following error 
if a runaway
were to occur.  But, I know after a while of correct operation, you 
won't want to do that every time.
You need to set up the hal files to command a servo shutdown on a following
error, I can tell you how to do that.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

Lester Caine wrote:
> Jeshua Lacock wrote:
>   
>> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition, but I 
>> wanted to see if anyone else has any thoughts on the subject.
>> 
>
> I would have thought that if the motor turned more than 1/2 a turn or so but 
> the 
> encoder feed produced no pulses then this would be an easily detected error 
> condition?
Nope, if NO motion was commanded, as at power up, this would look normal.
Now, when you give a command to move, and no motion is detected, that WOULD
cause a following error.
>  If you are getting pulses from one channel only, then that is very 
> easily detected ...
> Surely a 'runaway' like this SHOULD be handled by the servo driver?
>   
The old G320 does not handle this.  Supposedly the G320X does.
> Is there a market for a module to monitor the two encoder feeds and us it in 
> conjunction with either the index pulse or an extra source that indicates 
> that 
> the encoder should be giving output?
Probably the best way is to monitor motor voltage.  If you have 
significant voltage at
the motor terminals, but no motion detected by the encoder, then 
something HAS to be
wrong.  This might not be a real hard circuit to build, especially if a 
crude sensing
is all you need.  Maybe the motor terminals could be connected to a 
resistor divider, RC filter and
a dual-polarity opto-coupler.  Set the dividers so motion below 10% 
speed does not
light the LEDs in the opto.  Have a circuit that detects pulses on BOTH 
encoder signals.
If you get the LEDs lighting up, but even one encoder channel shows no 
transitions
for a millisecond or more, trip the E-stop.  The RC filter is needed to 
remove the
full-voltage PWM pulses that the G320 drive produces, and only sense the 
average
voltage.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 23 May 2012, Jeshua Lacock wrote:

> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 00:08:12 -0600
> From: Jeshua Lacock 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?
> 
>
> Greetings,
>
> I turned on the power to my system today and my 180 pound gantry shot full 
> speed crashing hard into the end of my table.
>
> It hit with so much force it actually lifted the front two legs of the 500+ 
> pound table 6+ inches off the floor! Yikes!
>
> Luckily the machine only suffered minor damage, but needless to say I really 
> would like to avoid this from ever happening again.
>
> I was a stumped at first as the last time I used it everything was stable. 
> It turns out that I had a loose connection to the encoder. I am going to 
> soldier the wires on the pins of the encoder to prevent that from happening 
> again, but I was wondering if there is anything I can do to disable motor 
> power in the event a connection to a encoder is lost.
>
> I understand why it happened - without the encoder live the motor was just 
> attempting to position itself at 0.
>
> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition, but I 
> wanted to see if anyone else has any thoughts on the subject.


I think the saturated PID output is a fairly good way to detect this condition 
and certainly would have workied in this circumstance. The saturated PID 
detection does depend on some amount of I term to detect encoder failure type 
faults when the commanded position is static so a constant small error will 
eventually saturate the PID output.

Errors when moving are easier to detect and handled by the built-in following 
error limits.

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeshua Lacock
> Founder/Engineer
> 3DTOPO Incorporated
> 
> Phone: 208.462.4171
>
>
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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Servo system and glass encoder scales for position feedback

[Jon Elson]

Roland Jollivet wrote:
>
> Thanks. And a curved ball;
> Does the rotary encoder really have to be in sync with the linear scale?
> I'm thinking of a small encoder that is geared up, off the motor shaft
> (tenshioned/no backlash)
>
>   
No, it really can't be.  You would never be able to sync up a linear 
scale and a shaft
encoder on a ballscrew.  Even minute variations in a precision ballscrew 
would
get it out of sync at some point.
> So now you have the rotary resolution, but the software would need to keep
> zero-ing this counter, as it will have a poor tracking relation to the
> linear sclae, but always yield maybe 5x the linear scale in resolution.
>   
That is why you don't do it that way.  You use the shaft encoder mostly 
for velocity
feedback, and the linear for position feedback.  The dual PID scheme 
that was worked
out some years ago does this nicely.  It would be nice to somehow merge the
higher resolution of the shaft encoder with the accuracy of the linear, 
and maybe
some makers do that.  I think you'd need to map the shaft encoder 
against the
full travel of the linear, and then have some sort of interpolated table 
to do the
merge.  As the leadscrew warmed up,  this alignment could drift, too!
It could, of course, be done in a new HAL component.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[andy pugh]

On 23 May 2012 15:06, Kent A. Reed  wrote:

> I got as far as bringing up my own custom build of Linux with a cut-down
> X, but then it got taken up as a display for my grandkids

This looks vaguely interesting in this context:
https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/android-builders-summit/mauerer

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[Emc-users] Spindle suggestions

[Erik Friesen]

I have been using a bosch colt on my 22x16 cnc router.  I need to upgrade
to something that can handle 3/16 end mills natively.  The only option with
the colt is to use a bushing.  Think and tinker makes 3/16 collets for
other routers, but not this one.

Really what I'd like is something with quick change tools, but not sure
where to look.  I'd like to keep it under $500, but probably wouldn't
happen with quick change.
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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 12:40:50 PM andy pugh did opine:

> On 23 May 2012 16:52, Eric H. Johnson  wrote:
> > Andy,
> 
> I am not sure I am the one to best answer this.
> 
> > My question is, do named external subroutine files need to end with
> > '%'. If I include a '%' at the end of the file, on rerunning I get an
> > error: "Bad character '%' used."
> 
> I have a feeling that I have heard that there are quirks with
> subroutines, but I am not sure what they are. I think Michael Haberler
> probably has the best handle on this, but I am not sure he is around
> at the moment.

I found that if you took the instructions for named subroutine file 
literally, I had no problems of that sort when machine etching my encoder 
boards.

The only problem that bothered me was that the subroutine files did not 
echo into the code flow being displayed in the lower code window of axis, 
so the machine was effectively flying blind while the subroutine was 
executing.

These 'canned' subroutines were called and ran as many as 7 times while the 
main code to do one side of the board was executing.  Named for the 
subroutine call with an appended .ngc, they started with:
cat bedautoz.ngc 
o sub
[...gcode to establish this tools auto z reference and apply it, and ended]
o endsub

No M2, or % sign was ever asked for or given.  They Just Worked(TM) :)

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Increase Damping

[Jon Elson]

Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> It felt like I wanted to get P set as high as I could. Is that correct? Or as 
> long as P is high enough to command the machine to move is that adequate?
>
>   
You want the P as high as you can get it while still having stable 
response.  Low P will
lead to "sloppy" positioning, ie. large following errors that don't get 
reduced.  But, there
is always a limit on how high you can turn P when instability develops.  
Then, you use
FF1 and FF2 to reduce the error further.  These compensate for finite 
gain in the rest of
the servo system.
>> Of course.  You should ground the shield at the control end only, so 
>> either the USC or the Gecko interface.
>> 
>
> Thanks! So I use the ground from either the USC or Gecko?
>   
Yes.
> I see. Currently, since I am only using pulleys with timing belts (no gears 
> or lead screws per se), I was under the impression that backlash is nearly 
> non-exisistent. Is that true?
>
>   
The only thing left is stretch of the belt.  Long belts may have some 
stretch, which is somewhat
different from backlash, but can still be a problem in servo response.  
At the middle of travel,
it produces a springy effect, but less at the ends of travel.  And, at 
the ends, the sprinigness
could become asymmetric.
> My z-axis is pulleys with a ballscrew.
>
> Of course as soon as I install the 5:1 gearbox on my X (hopefully here 
> tomorrow) then it will have some backlash (see below).
>
>   
> Actually the gearbox is rated as 6 arcmin backlash. I did the math and that 
> seemed quite negligible to me, at least for my purposes. Thoughts?
>
>   
WOW, yes, that is quite small!  Some of the crap that is out there for 
smaller machines
have simple spur gear reduction on Pittman motors and the backlash in in 
the several
degree range at the output shaft.  I would think this level of backlash 
is indeed
negligible.
> Do you recommend any tricks, like springs or semi-flexible drive shaft?
>
>   
Ugh, no, you want to avoid adding any springiness in the system.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Jon Elson]

Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I turned on the power to my system today and my 180 pound gantry shot full 
> speed crashing hard into the end of my table.
>
>
>
> I was a stumped at first as the last time I used it everything was stable. It 
> turns out that I had a loose connection to the encoder. I am going to soldier 
> the wires on the pins of the encoder to prevent that from happening again, 
> but I was wondering if there is anything I can do to disable motor power in 
> the event a connection to a encoder is lost.
>
>   
Yup, this is a problem with servo systems.  If the encoder does not 
provide signals
indicating movement, then a runaway is likely.
> I understand why it happened - without the encoder live the motor was just 
> attempting to position itself at 0.
>
> I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition, but I wanted 
> to see if anyone else has any thoughts on the subject.
>   
And, yes, you are right, there is no easy way to detect this.  The 
servos on my Bridgeport
will fault under a runaway condition, but many will not.  The ancient 
Allen-Bradley
control I started with had a circuit that compared absolute velocity 
from the encoders with
absolute velocity from the servo amp's tachometers.  If the tach value 
exceeded the
encoder value by 20%, that caused an E-stop.  Very good in the days of 
light bulbs
in the encoders.  They also compared the A and A/, etc. signals from a 
differential
encoder.  If they were both at the same level for more than 1 us, that 
also caused
an E-stop.

The G320X has a scheme that is supposed to detect encoder failure, but I 
am not sure
how well it handles all possible conditions.  You can have a break on 
any signal wire,
loss of encoder power, loss of encoder ground.  It needs to detect any 
combination
of these.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[Dave]

Sounds like a good idea.  :-)
Looks like you can get some good deals on Ebay!New, some custom 
bamboo fly rods are crazy expensive.
That one you linked even still has the spare tip!  Nice.

Dave

On 5/23/2012 12:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> If I can find him something that is serviceable and a step above his
> walmart rod I think he will be a happier guy. He is always helping me
> and never asks for anything... so I just want to do a little something
> for him.
>
> John
>
> On 5/23/2012 11:05 AM, Dave wrote:
>
>> I don't think that "economical and bamboo" go together in the fly
>> fishing world.
>> Mark, on this list, has a bamboo rod making machine setup.   I'm not
>> sure if it fully functional yet though.
>> I think you are talking hundreds of $ to get started.Some/many are
>> in excess of $1000.
>> Fly fishing is a great sport.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>  
>>> Totally Off Topic
>>>
>>> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
>>> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
>>> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
>>> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
>>> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
>>> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>>>
>>> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> John
>>>
>>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[andy pugh]

On 23 May 2012 16:52, Eric H. Johnson  wrote:
> Andy,

I am not sure I am the one to best answer this.

> My question is, do named external subroutine files need to end with '%'. If
> I include a '%' at the end of the file, on rerunning I get an error:
> "Bad character '%' used."

I have a feeling that I have heard that there are quirks with
subroutines, but I am not sure what they are. I think Michael Haberler
probably has the best handle on this, but I am not sure he is around
at the moment.

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Re: [Emc-users] Need Help from U.S. Users & Companies - APT (Automatically Programmed Tools)

[Jon Elson]

Dave Caroline wrote:
> I have spent a while trying to get the APT360 version 64bit compliant
> and have to agree about common block missmatch.
> This code does have unmatched common blocks in differing phases of the code
> which Im not sure f2c and gcc get right.
>   
The only solution is to make the common blocks an include file.  If the 
compiler doesn't
support that, write a script that inserts the include file at the right 
point.  Edit the files
in the raw form, the script inserts the commons, and then the compiler 
processes
the processed files.
> f2c has trouble with some of the evil constructs that APT uses
>   
Hopefully no computed goto's and 1960-vintage syntax of that sort.
Also, the Hollerith-encoded char strings are machine dependent.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Need Help from U.S. Users & Companies - APT (Automatically Programmed Tools)

[Jon Elson]

dave wrote:
>
> I'm hoping we can keep the entire thing in FORTRAN just because it is
> supposed to work there.
OK, what is the status of open-source FORTRAN compilers?  I know there 
were some
problems with the old f77 compiler that was part of GNU.  How about gdb 
support,
and maybe electric fence?  We have some FORTRAN diehards at work, so I am
a little familiar with this.  (Very little.)

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Intel DN2800MT - possible new LinuxCNC star?

[Jon Elson]

Dave wrote:
> That board  is considerable cheaper than a D525 and a wide input range 
> power supply.
>   
The AC-input supplies for these micro-ITX boards are quite cheap.  You 
can get
a mini case with power supply and front panel buttons and indicators for
less than $50.  The DC-input supplies are more expensive.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[John Thornton]

If I can find him something that is serviceable and a step above his 
walmart rod I think he will be a happier guy. He is always helping me 
and never asks for anything... so I just want to do a little something 
for him.

John

On 5/23/2012 11:05 AM, Dave wrote:
> I don't think that "economical and bamboo" go together in the fly
> fishing world.
> Mark, on this list, has a bamboo rod making machine setup.   I'm not
> sure if it fully functional yet though.
> I think you are talking hundreds of $ to get started.Some/many are
> in excess of $1000.
> Fly fishing is a great sport.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Totally Off Topic
>>
>> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
>> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
>> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
>> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
>> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
>> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>>
>> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>>
>> Thanks
>> John
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[John Thornton]

Actually I like this one better but do not know what 1FLF Flash mean?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Montague-Split-Bamboo-Genuine-Tonkin-1FLF-Flash-Fly-Fishing-Rod-9-cas-/190680106285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c656b852d

Thanks
John

On 5/23/2012 9:12 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Totally Off Topic
>>
>> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
>> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
>> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
>> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
>> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
>> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>>
>> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>>
>> Thanks
>> John
>>
> Ebay.  Look for Montagues, lower end Heddons, Horrocks-Ibotson (sp?) and
> many others.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[Dave]

I don't think that "economical and bamboo" go together in the fly 
fishing world.
Mark, on this list, has a bamboo rod making machine setup.   I'm not 
sure if it fully functional yet though.
I think you are talking hundreds of $ to get started.Some/many are 
in excess of $1000.
Fly fishing is a great sport.

Dave


On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Totally Off Topic
>
> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>
> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[John Thornton]

How does this one look?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Herrocks-Ibbotson-Split-Bamboo-Fly-Rod-9Ft-Tonkin-Cane-Utica-N-Y-/261030136604?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc69bcb1c

Thanks
John

On 5/23/2012 9:12 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Totally Off Topic
>>
>> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
>> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
>> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
>> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
>> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
>> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>>
>> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>>
>> Thanks
>> John
>>
> Ebay.  Look for Montagues, lower end Heddons, Horrocks-Ibotson (sp?) and
> many others.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[John Thornton]

Mark,

Thanks
John

On 5/23/2012 9:12 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Totally Off Topic
>>
>> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
>> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
>> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
>> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
>> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
>> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>>
>> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>>
>> Thanks
>> John
>>
> Ebay.  Look for Montagues, lower end Heddons, Horrocks-Ibotson (sp?) and
> many others.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[Eric H. Johnson]

Andy,

I am not writing to the tool table with gcode, and I can post some code, but
I have a question first.

I modified the Sim Axis-9 configuration to simulate what I am doing on the
real machine. When I run a program using external named subroutines I get
one of two errors if I stop the program in the middle, do a motion like
G53 G0 X0 Y0

And then run again without reloading.

My question is, do named external subroutine files need to end with '%'. If
I include a '%' at the end of the file, on rerunning I get an error:
"Bad character '%' used."

If I delete the '%' from the end of the file, I get:
"File ended with no percent sign or program end".

If I do a reload, I do not get this error.

Thanks,
Eric

Can you show us the G-code? Are you writing to the tool table in G-code? I
wonder if the software only writes to the tool file on exit?



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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[Dave]

On 5/23/2012 8:39 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> I wonder if there is any use for a touchscreen tablet as a remote/pendant?
>
> A friend of mine is trying to push these:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fineslate-Capacitive-Ice-cream-Sandwich-Facebook/dp/B007L9YZP4/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1337766725&sr=1-1
>
>

Here in the US we have the Barnes and Noble Nook Color readers you can 
buy.   I have converted 5 of them to run CyanogenMod which was based on 
Android 2.3 (I think).
http://www.cyanogenmod.com/devices

Around Christmas time I bought 5 Nook colors refurbished with a 1 year 
guarantee for $100 each.  Using the CyanogenMod on a 32 gig flash card 
really adds some capability.  You can load the Android market on it
and get all of the apps you want.  Total cost was about $120 each with 
the flash cards which I could reproduce via my PC and a card writer in 
about 30 minutes each.   I have two daughters, both in college. They 
both use their Nook Color Android units in
class during the lectures.   They can load the class slides off the 
local wifi and see them on their tablets during the lecture.   (We had 
punch card programmed computers when I was in college :-( )  My younger 
daughter, who is taking summer classes, was bragging yesterday that she 
was loading the slides off the wifi faster than her partner who was 
using a high end Apple Ipad.   Apparently it was quite obvious as she 
was sitting next to him.He was not happy since he spent over $500 on 
his new Ipad and he knew how much a Nook Color costs.  The Nook Color 
has really good build quality also since I believe Barnes and Noble 
subsidized the unit since it was originally geared to be a "reader" for 
their E books.

I have often wondered if it can be used for other purposes also - like a 
cheap MMI for machine control.   It runs Teamviewer just fine and can 
easily remote to a Linux PC or a Windows PC via Teamviewer.   It can 
also run Flash video and Youtube video just fine.  Add a Mifi type 
hotspot device and it can access the web via cell phone service.  Not 
bad for $120.

I know some people have used them as remote Navigation stations on 
sailboats.  There are some waterproof sleeves that are sold for the Nook 
Color.  I want to try it as a remote Nav station to a nav computer on my 
boat this summer.  Keep the computer in the boat and use the tablet in 
the cockpit as a wireless remote screen.  Sunlight washout can be an 
issue, but that seems to be true of all of the "Pads and tablets".

Dave







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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[andy pugh]

On 23 May 2012 15:19, dave  wrote:

> Les Watts had some interesting shock absorbers on his router.
> Half-inch threads on the cylinder with about .75 travel on the plunger.

They are reasonably standard components.
http://www.slamproof.co.uk/Industrial-Shock-Absorbers
Though not cheap
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/shock-absorbers/2680658/

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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[gene heskett]

On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:27:11 AM andy pugh did opine:

> I wonder if there is any use for a touchscreen tablet as a
> remote/pendant?
> 
> A friend of mine is trying to push these:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fineslate-Capacitive-Ice-cream-Sandwich-Facebook
> /dp/B007L9YZP4/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1337766725&sr=1-1

FWIW, Big Lots is selling some sort of an android based nook color sized 
gizmo for a $100 bill locally.  I'm tempted as it has lots more i/o than 
the Nook Color I bought the missus for Christmas last year.  It has a 
Polariod label on it. I didn't get a chance to stop & look at it yesterday 
because a storm was brewing I didn't want to get caught in, so I pointed 
the GMC south & set the CC for 75, outrunning it.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
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My web page: 
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of the risks he takes.
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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[andy pugh]

On 23 May 2012 15:12, Mark Wendt (Contractor)  wrote:

> Ebay.  Look for Montagues, lower end Heddons, Horrocks-Ibotson (sp?) and

Looks to be two "b"s in Ibbotson.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350560285513

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[dave]

On Wed, 23 May 2012 08:36:46 +0100
Lester Caine  wrote:

> Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> > I am guessing there is not an easy way to detect this condition,
> > but I wanted to see if anyone else has any thoughts on the subject.
> 
> I would have thought that if the motor turned more than 1/2 a turn or
> so but the encoder feed produced no pulses then this would be an
> easily detected error condition? If you are getting pulses from one
> channel only, then that is very easily detected ...
> Surely a 'runaway' like this SHOULD be handled by the servo driver?
> 
> Is there a market for a module to monitor the two encoder feeds and
> us it in conjunction with either the index pulse or an extra source
> that indicates that the encoder should be giving output?
> 

Les Watts had some interesting shock absorbers on his router. 
Half-inch threads on the cylinder with about .75 travel on the plunger.
They were rated to absorb nn amount of energy in that distance. 
You bought them with a range of energy and they were adjustable within
that range. 
If one can still find his website then the link may be there. 
I found links but looks like they've be hijacked. 
Maybe someone else will have better luck. 

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Power and data cables for CNC

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.05.12 09:55, Dave wrote:
> I must admit that I have a strand of regular Cat 5 solid cable that runs 
> through the air between my house and garage/shop about 20 feet..  It was 
> meant to be a temporary fix - 10+ years ago.
> It has survived ice, snow, wind, some tree branches bouncing on it and 
> it flexes whenever the wind blows.  It still works which amazes me.   
> I'd replace it except that it still works.  :-)

It could be quite a wait. The aerial telephone line to the farmhouse,
until undergrounded, was a twisted pair of single strand conductors,
which hung there for nigh on half a century. Even my experiments as a
kid, lying on the roof and plucking heavily a metre out, to send
physical waves out, and watch them reflect with a TWANG from the first
post, about 50 metres out, didn't do it in.

But yes, copper work hardens, so it's surprising how long it sometimes
lasts.

Erik

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[Mark Wendt (Contractor)]

On 5/23/2012 8:57 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Totally Off Topic
>
> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>
> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>
> Thanks
> John
>

Ebay.  Look for Montagues, lower end Heddons, Horrocks-Ibotson (sp?) and 
many others.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[Dave]

To not be different, means that you need to be like one other 
controller.  If you do that, who do you follow?
Fanuc?   Fanuc has incompatibilities between their various models.   I 
know that Mach3 strives to be somewhat compatible with Fanuc, but the 
truth is
that Fanuc has capabilities well beyond what Mach3 can do, so the code 
is not portable.It is "Fanuc like" and that is about it.
This is only gong to get worse as new controller features are added by 
the big CNC makers.

Dave



On 5/23/2012 7:45 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Good point, are there any two controls from different manufacturers that
> are completely portable between each other?
>
> I know from reading my CNC g code manuals from other machines that I
> have that even generation to generation of the same controller the g
> code is not portable.
>
> You would think that the simple G0 would be the same between controllers
> but that is not the case, some of my machines Z up before doing the XY
> move and if Z is down do the XY move before the Z move and some do a
> straight linear move...
>
> So the question is do you cobble up your software just to be portable
> when no one else seems to do this...
>
> Just open up the list of post processors on most cam software and you
> see hundreds of choices usually...
>
> John
>
> On 5/23/2012 2:48 AM, Steve Blackmore wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 May 2012 05:38:16 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Why does it matter how other controls work?
>>>
>> Portability of Gcode between different controls.
>>
>> Steve Blackmore
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 8:39 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> I wonder if there is any use for a touchscreen tablet as a remote/pendant?
>
> A friend of mine is trying to push these:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fineslate-Capacitive-Ice-cream-Sandwich-Facebook/dp/B007L9YZP4/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1337766725&sr=1-1
>
I played with a Insignia Infocast (a limited-resource ARM-based 8-inch 
touchscreen appliance that already ran Linux) with the intent of running 
Touchy as a remote display, possibly augmented by a webcam. I did not to 
use it as a remote controller.

I got as far as bringing up my own custom build of Linux with a cut-down 
X, but then it got taken up as a display for my grandkids and a 
primitive robotic remote explorer (which will become much less primitive 
once it gets a BeagleBoard-brain transplant).

The idea still seems reasonable, whether as a pendant or as a LinuxCNC 
display/remote. The marketplace has driven the cost of Android tablets 
down to reasonable prices but as Viesturs already noted, they are 
*Android* tablets, about which I know squat. If I knew it's easy to wipe 
Android and load Linux I'd buy one on spec. Otherwise not---there's just 
not enough hours in a day.

I would be concerned about the durability of their touch screens in the 
shop.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Power and data cables for CNC

[Dave]

On 5/23/2012 2:00 AM, Rafael Skodlar wrote:
> On 05/22/2012 02:21 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 22 May 2012 07:53, Rafael Skodlar   wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Using Cat-5 was a surprise to me as it's a bit stiff unless each wire is
>>> made of even smaller wires, not common in general use.
>>>
>> There is solid stranded for fixed installation and stranded for patch cables.
>> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/cables-wires/network-communication-cable/cat5e-cable/?searchTerm=cat5
>> The stranded would be very much preferred.
>>
>> There are many other types of multicore cable, it is just that CAT5 is
>> readily available.
>>
>>  
> There are different kinds of stranded CAT-5 from my experience. However,
> stranded cat-5/6 were not designed for bending over and over thousands
> of times IMO. Connecting laptops is one thing, wiring sensors and
> electronics on moving mechanisms on CNC machines is another.
>
> I've come across multi-wire cables with "magic white powder" inside
> which made bending much smoother. Insulated wires inside main cable
> jacket were sliding along each other easily. I did not pay attention to
> that at that time but now I suspect I know what that was all about.
>
>

True, but they all wear out from cycling eventually.
I have seen machine tool servo cables that have worn right through the 
outer cable jackets and through the shielding - all this will running 
inside an energy chain/cable track.   I worked on a Fanuc equipped lathe
that kept blowing servo drives.   Looking at the cables in the chain - 
you could see copper!
If you are doing a hobby machine that you run infrequently, you might 
get years of wear out of them before they go.  If this is a production 
machine that you make money on - go for the better cables.
I must admit that I have a strand of regular Cat 5 solid cable that runs 
through the air between my house and garage/shop about 20 feet..  It was 
meant to be a temporary fix - 10+ years ago.
It has survived ice, snow, wind, some tree branches bouncing on it and 
it flexes whenever the wind blows.  It still works which amazes me.   
I'd replace it except that it still works.  :-)

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 5/23/2012 5:53 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> Unfortunately the
> G-code standard is not very standard.
Every information-representation standard I ever met was encumbered with 
exceptions, variants, special cases. After all, they're written by 
committees (on some of which I served, so I'm guilty too).

It's bad enough when the lifespan of the standard is less than the 
lifespan of the committee members. Standards that live over generations 
of committee members often end up looking like the proverbial camel (a 
horse designed by a committee).

Even if the committee members try to write and maintain a "clean" 
standard, all committees reach consensus by being vague, and vagueness 
represents an opportunity for invention among implementers.

It's the nature of every vendor to want to stretch a standard to fit the 
specific features of its product.

Regards,
Kent

PS- It's the nature of every sales rep to swear the product conforms to 
whatever standard will close the deal, but that's another story.

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Re: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[Alex Joni]

maybe try here?

http://www.goabra.org/Directory.htm


PS: I know probably less about fly fishing, but my google-foo feels 
strong-ish today :)

Alex

- Original Message - 
From: "John Thornton" 
To: "EMC Mailing List" 
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: [Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods


> Totally Off Topic
>
> I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact
> that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods
> that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I
> know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than
> before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his
> cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.
>
> Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[Stuart Stevenson]

exactly

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:46 AM, John Thornton  wrote:

> So then the portability or not of say my Anilam 1100m depends on the
> integrator? No wonder there are hundreds of post processors in cam
> programs...
>
> John
>
> On 5/23/2012 7:29 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> > All of the controls allow the integrator to determine the exact treatment
> > of all of the symbolic commands. Some of the integrators allow the end
> user
> > to adjust many (but not usually all) of the parameters to customize the
> > interpretation of the symbolic commands for a particular preference.
> > You may be able to change a parameter to match the G00 Zup/Zdown motion
> to
> > your expected action.
> >
> > On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 6:45 AM, John Thornton  wrote:
> >
> >> Good point, are there any two controls from different manufacturers that
> >> are completely portable between each other?
> >>
> >> I know from reading my CNC g code manuals from other machines that I
> >> have that even generation to generation of the same controller the g
> >> code is not portable.
> >>
> >> You would think that the simple G0 would be the same between controllers
> >> but that is not the case, some of my machines Z up before doing the XY
> >> move and if Z is down do the XY move before the Z move and some do a
> >> straight linear move...
> >>
> >> So the question is do you cobble up your software just to be portable
> >> when no one else seems to do this...
> >>
> >> Just open up the list of post processors on most cam software and you
> >> see hundreds of choices usually...
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> On 5/23/2012 2:48 AM, Steve Blackmore wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 22 May 2012 05:38:16 -0500, you wrote:
> >>>
>  Why does it matter how other controls work?
> >>> Portability of Gcode between different controls.
> >>>
> >>> Steve Blackmore
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> --
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> >>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
> Discussions
> >>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
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[Emc-users] TOT Bamboo Fly Rods

[John Thornton]

Totally Off Topic

I have a retired buddy on a fixed income that loves to fly fish, in fact 
that is the only way he fishes. He has a couple of wally world fly rods 
that he uses and has expressed a desire to get a split bamboo rod. All I 
know about fly fishing fits on a pin head... I do know more now than 
before as he has shown me how to rig the lines on one. All I know is his 
cheapo rods are 5/6 what ever that means.

Where would one look to find an economical split bamboo rod for him?

Thanks
John

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Re: [Emc-users] Tablet

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/5/23 andy pugh :
> I wonder if there is any use for a touchscreen tablet as a remote/pendant?
>
> A friend of mine is trying to push these:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fineslate-Capacitive-Ice-cream-Sandwich-Facebook/dp/B007L9YZP4/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1337766725&sr=1-1

I guess that appropriate application for the Android OS might be a problem.
And how to connect it to a PC with LinuxCNC? USB wire, local wlan, internet?
Other than that I think it would be _awesome_ to control a CNC machine
with just an Android tablet, which means that [almost] any Android
smartphone could be used as well.
And then add ability to switch among several LinuxCNC machines so that
one tablet/phone could be carried around the machine shop and used to
set up any of the machines :))

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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[John Thornton]

My old Anilam 1100m which is a conversational control will "convert" a G 
code file if it is simple enough and uses G codes that the Anilam can 
understand. I've never tried Hieroglyphics on it though...

John

On 5/23/2012 7:41 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>Many CNC controls have user switchable 'modes' for G code interpretation.
> I have a Fadal that will interpret Fadal code or Fanuc code depending on
> the switch position.
>G code is just an agreed upon symbolic representation of motion commands.
> This allows human readability. Hieroglyphics could be used but there would
> be a learning curve for almost everyone.
>
> thanks
> Stuart
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[John Thornton]

So then the portability or not of say my Anilam 1100m depends on the 
integrator? No wonder there are hundreds of post processors in cam 
programs...

John

On 5/23/2012 7:29 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> All of the controls allow the integrator to determine the exact treatment
> of all of the symbolic commands. Some of the integrators allow the end user
> to adjust many (but not usually all) of the parameters to customize the
> interpretation of the symbolic commands for a particular preference.
> You may be able to change a parameter to match the G00 Zup/Zdown motion to
> your expected action.
>
> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 6:45 AM, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> Good point, are there any two controls from different manufacturers that
>> are completely portable between each other?
>>
>> I know from reading my CNC g code manuals from other machines that I
>> have that even generation to generation of the same controller the g
>> code is not portable.
>>
>> You would think that the simple G0 would be the same between controllers
>> but that is not the case, some of my machines Z up before doing the XY
>> move and if Z is down do the XY move before the Z move and some do a
>> straight linear move...
>>
>> So the question is do you cobble up your software just to be portable
>> when no one else seems to do this...
>>
>> Just open up the list of post processors on most cam software and you
>> see hundreds of choices usually...
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 5/23/2012 2:48 AM, Steve Blackmore wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 May 2012 05:38:16 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
 Why does it matter how other controls work?
>>> Portability of Gcode between different controls.
>>>
>>> Steve Blackmore
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>> --
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>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoder Redundancy?

[Claude Froidevaux]

Le 23.05.2012 10:05, Jeshua Lacock a écrit :
> On May 23, 2012, at 2:01 AM, Claude Froidevaux wrote:
>
>> 1)  make a hal check, that disable drive if more than 5-10 consecutive
>> sample period with maximum drive output without any encoder change
>>
>> 2) if you use a hal encoder (brushless motor), use it as second encoder,
>> and cut motor power if more than about 20° of error between both
>>
>> theses are not perfect solution, but are quite simple.
> Hi Claude,
>
> Sounds great, thanks!
>
> Is there anyway you can show me a hal sample or point me in the right 
> direction?  I don't have much hal experience at all.
unfortunately, I never put this function on linuxcnc, but I use it 
several times on micro controller solution.

One thing to get pointed, you must allow 0 or 1 increment of change (in 
case 1 signal is lost, encoder will give 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 position, this 
must trip the protection as well)



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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,
  Many CNC controls have user switchable 'modes' for G code interpretation.
I have a Fadal that will interpret Fadal code or Fanuc code depending on
the switch position.
  G code is just an agreed upon symbolic representation of motion commands.
This allows human readability. Hieroglyphics could be used but there would
be a learning curve for almost everyone.

thanks
Stuart

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[Emc-users] Tablet

[andy pugh]

I wonder if there is any use for a touchscreen tablet as a remote/pendant?

A friend of mine is trying to push these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fineslate-Capacitive-Ice-cream-Sandwich-Facebook/dp/B007L9YZP4/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1337766725&sr=1-1

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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[Stuart Stevenson]

All of the controls allow the integrator to determine the exact treatment
of all of the symbolic commands. Some of the integrators allow the end user
to adjust many (but not usually all) of the parameters to customize the
interpretation of the symbolic commands for a particular preference.
You may be able to change a parameter to match the G00 Zup/Zdown motion to
your expected action.

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 6:45 AM, John Thornton  wrote:

> Good point, are there any two controls from different manufacturers that
> are completely portable between each other?
>
> I know from reading my CNC g code manuals from other machines that I
> have that even generation to generation of the same controller the g
> code is not portable.
>
> You would think that the simple G0 would be the same between controllers
> but that is not the case, some of my machines Z up before doing the XY
> move and if Z is down do the XY move before the Z move and some do a
> straight linear move...
>
> So the question is do you cobble up your software just to be portable
> when no one else seems to do this...
>
> Just open up the list of post processors on most cam software and you
> see hundreds of choices usually...
>
> John
>
> On 5/23/2012 2:48 AM, Steve Blackmore wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 May 2012 05:38:16 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >> Why does it matter how other controls work?
> > Portability of Gcode between different controls.
> >
> > Steve Blackmore
> > --
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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[andy pugh]

On 23 May 2012 12:25, charles green  wrote:
>> U and X can't be used as these are axis position commands.
>
> isn't T one of the modern coordinate axes as well?

No, the axes are ABC UVW XYZ.
T is tool number.
(and acts as a standalone command, changing the value of tool-prepare IIRC)

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Re: [Emc-users] G04 dwell in seconds not milliseconds?

[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,
I remember NC/CNC controls that use/used the X in ways other than just an
axis designation. I was uncomfortable with that on the first such control I
used. The previous G code determined the treatment of the X in each
position on the line.

I seem to remember drill cycles as follows
G81 X Y Z F X X X X
with the manual telling the programmer what each X position on the line was
used for.

Immediately prior to this type of code many controls used a tab sequential
format where the position on the lline was the only way of determining what
a particular value was used for. I believe in the tab sequential format the
XYZ labels were only used to allow the operator to easily read the code.

I am sure the old computer programmers remember the tabs and fields that
were required when writing code.

Maybe some of the younger ones also. My daughter was griping about an
OLD!!! man she works with. I asked her how old he is. He is 2 years younger
than me! Of course I thanked her for the compliment. :)

thanks
Stuart


On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 6:36 AM, John Thornton  wrote:

> You might  reference the g code manual for LinuxCNC rather than guess or
> assume LinuxCNC G code is the same as some other control.
>
> John
>
> On 5/23/2012 12:35 AM, Claude Zervas wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Just wondering if someone might know why LinuxCNC interprets the G04
> > dwell command parameter as seconds instead of milliseconds?
> > I'm fairly certain most other machines (ie Fanuc and others) interpret
> > the P value as milliseconds.
> > For example, the command:
> >
> > G04 P3000
> >
> > is interpreted by most machines as stop the tool for 3000 milliseconds
> > (3 seconds). But LinuxCNC interprets this as 3000 seconds.
> >
> > Also, I think the G04 command should take X or P (or possibly U),
> > where the X value is normally in seconds and the P value is normally
> > milliseconds. LinuxCNC does not allow X values and will throw an error
> > if it encounters one.
> >
> > If anyone can clear this up I would be grateful. I'm writing an
> > extension for Inkscape that generates G code and I'd like to make sure
> > that its output is nominally correct.
> >
> > thanks,
> > - Claude
> >
> >
> > P.S. I'm using LinuxCNC to control an old Fletcher F6100 CNC mat
> > cutter that has a tangential knife (a fourth axis that rotates about
> > the Z axis that is always tangent to the direction of travel along the
> > X and Y axes)
> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] Tool Offsets

[John Thornton]

Good point, are there any two controls from different manufacturers that 
are completely portable between each other?

I know from reading my CNC g code manuals from other machines that I 
have that even generation to generation of the same controller the g 
code is not portable.

You would think that the simple G0 would be the same between controllers 
but that is not the case, some of my machines Z up before doing the XY 
move and if Z is down do the XY move before the Z move and some do a 
straight linear move...

So the question is do you cobble up your software just to be portable 
when no one else seems to do this...

Just open up the list of post processors on most cam software and you 
see hundreds of choices usually...

John

On 5/23/2012 2:48 AM, Steve Blackmore wrote:
> On Tue, 22 May 2012 05:38:16 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Why does it matter how other controls work?
> Portability of Gcode between different controls.
>
> Steve Blackmore
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>
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