Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/04/2017 02:16 AM, Bengt Sjölund wrote:
> Jon, you do all op in one shot!
>
> It mills the hole and cuts the thread in a helical motion with feed rate
> to suite material.
>
> Works very well as intended in recommended materials, done some
> threading in steel but in pre-drilled holes with this tool.
>
>
>
I use combo drill-taps in thin materials, and they are 
great.  Twist drills have the helical flutes to pull the 
chips out of the hole. The device under discussion doesn't 
seem to have those, so how does it keep the chips from 
clogging the hole?

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Bengt Sjölund]

Jon, you do all op in one shot!

It mills the hole and cuts the thread in a helical motion with feed rate 
to suite material.

Works very well as intended in recommended materials, done some 
threading in steel but in pre-drilled holes with this tool.


/Bengt


Den 2017-02-04 kl. 03:57, skrev Jon Elson:
> On 02/03/2017 11:23 AM, Bengt Sjölund wrote:
>> Take a moment and think again ;)  It is a single row tool.
>> /Bengt
>>
>>
>> Den 2017-02-03 kl. 18:05, skrev Jon Elson:
>>> tool into a chunk of material at the thread pitch feedrate.
> OK, you drill it down the center of the hole at a slow feed,
> and the thread milling teeth open the diameter up quite a
> bit more than the shank diameter.  Then, you deflect to the
> side and thread mill coming back up.  I've never run into a
> tool of this type before. I've used single-row thread mills,
> and use combo drill-taps a lot. Always something new!
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Stuart Stevenson]

Several times I have milled threads (both internal and external) with a
lathe ID threading tool. Instead of a single row this would be called a
single tooth thread mill.
Put it in an end mill adapter and voila you have a thread mill. You can
mill whatever pitch you can program and whatever diameter you can program.
easy peasy!

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:57 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 02/03/2017 11:23 AM, Bengt Sjölund wrote:
> > Take a moment and think again ;)  It is a single row tool.
> > /Bengt
> >
> >
> > Den 2017-02-03 kl. 18:05, skrev Jon Elson:
> >> tool into a chunk of material at the thread pitch feedrate.
> >
> OK, you drill it down the center of the hole at a slow feed,
> and the thread milling teeth open the diameter up quite a
> bit more than the shank diameter.  Then, you deflect to the
> side and thread mill coming back up.  I've never run into a
> tool of this type before. I've used single-row thread mills,
> and use combo drill-taps a lot. Always something new!
>
> Jon
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 11:23 AM, Bengt Sjölund wrote:
> Take a moment and think again ;)  It is a single row tool.
> /Bengt
>
>
> Den 2017-02-03 kl. 18:05, skrev Jon Elson:
>> tool into a chunk of material at the thread pitch feedrate.
>
OK, you drill it down the center of the hole at a slow feed, 
and the thread milling teeth open the diameter up quite a 
bit more than the shank diameter.  Then, you deflect to the 
side and thread mill coming back up.  I've never run into a 
tool of this type before. I've used single-row thread mills, 
and use combo drill-taps a lot. Always something new!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 10:37 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 16:21 +, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 3 February 2017 at 16:13, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
>>> I would like to know where to buy one tool to do that. :-)
>>
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xthread+mill.TRS0&_nkw=thread+mill&_sacat=0
>>
>
> they look like standard taps :-)
>
Yes, but they have no helix.  All the teeth in one row are 
in a ring, not forming a thread.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 10:13 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> I would like to know where to buy one tool to do that. :-) 
> I am starting to build a new cnc machine, when finished I 
> will need one of those tools.
Not clear what tool you are asking for.  Micro 100 makes 
single-row thread milling cutters, and I have been very 
happy with mine.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

Thanks


Valerio Bellizzomi




On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 10:50 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/03/2017 01:59 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4
> >
> >
> This is thread milling.  You use a cutter that looks sort of 
> like a tap, but the rows of teeth are actually rings, not a 
> helix.  You place the tool into a hole that is large enough 
> for it to pass straight through, and then move toward the 
> side and preform a helical move.  Generally, you plunge 
> straight to the bottom of the hole and then make the helix 
> back out in Z,
> this climb mills the thread.  You make slightly more than 
> one turn of the helical move, and the entire hole is threaded.
> 
> Pretty much all modern CNC controls can do helical 
> interpolation.
> 
> thread mills are expensive tools, and can only do one thread 
> pitch, although they can be used for a range of thread 
> diameters.  There is an alternative, a single row thread 
> mill.  This can do a wide range of thread pitches, but as it 
> only has one row of teeth, you need to make the helix follow 
> the entire number of turns of the thread. But, for special 
> threads where you don't have either a conventional tap or a 
> thread mill, and can't fit the part in a lathe, it can make 
> it possible to put the thread in.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Bengt Sjölund]

Take a moment and think again ;)  It is a single row tool.
/Bengt


Den 2017-02-03 kl. 18:05, skrev Jon Elson:
> tool into a chunk of material at the thread pitch feedrate.


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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 07:25 AM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> very nice idea, bore & thread with 1 tool
> but i _thought_
> "this puts a lot of work on the lead edge, and the circular
> interpolation avoided that"
> but then i read that it was meant for non-ferrous materials
> so no heart attack
> until
> i read the price... 62Euro!?
>
>
Oh, I missed the part about the boring.  I didn't take the 
time to puzzle through the German text.

I'm sure I paid the equivalent of about 62 Euro for my Micro 
100 single-row thread mill.  And, I have not gotten my money 
out of it, yet.  It is slow, but for a piece that is hard to 
fit or locate in the lathe, and you have no tap for that 
combination of diameter and thread pitch, there's no other 
way to do it.  So, I'm happy to have it.

I'm a bit skeptical about plunging a spindly little 62 Euro 
tool into a chunk of material at the thread pitch feedrate.
I know how that works out on $8 combo drill-taps.  
(snap-crunch).  I do love the combo drill taps, though, for 
spotting-drilling-tapping thinner materials with one tool.  
It does take a spindle reversal at the bottom, but that is 
no big deal.
I generally drill at 1000 RPM and feed of 3 IPM until the 
tip breaks through, then back up and engage the G33.1 cycle 
to thread the hole. Just a couple seconds per hole.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 05:53 AM, Bengt Sjölund wrote:
>
> https://shop.vhf.de/articleGroups/Circular-thread-cutters-W_GW_BGF.htm
>
> I am very fond of the one above = 2 tools in 1
>
>
Yes, that is called a single-row thread mill in the US.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 05:28 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 3 February 2017 at 11:19, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
>> With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal when
>> tapping
> Yes, but, unless there is something very clever going on in those
> animations, you need a cutting tool with zero lead.
> I am about 80% convinced that you can#t do it with a standard tap.
>
Absolutely correct.  these thread mills have rows of cutting 
teeth, that are not on a helix.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 05:19 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal when
> tapping
>
> it is also faster as the tool can move out from the hole rapidly
>
Right, the typical cycle is you plunge down the center of 
the hole, move to the side, helix up one turn, move back to 
the center and pull straight up.  it can be a very fast cycle.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 05:06 AM, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> i've not done it with linuxcnc
> we did it a lot in heidenhain tnc controls for sink edm
The 6th program described here :  
http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html
writes the G-code to do arbitrary thread milling moves.  It 
was written specifically for LinuxCNC, but should work on 
most CNC controls.  You can download the C source code or a 
DOS executable for this.  It can write the code for either 
single-row or conventional thread mills.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/03/2017 01:59 AM, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4
>
>
This is thread milling.  You use a cutter that looks sort of 
like a tap, but the rows of teeth are actually rings, not a 
helix.  You place the tool into a hole that is large enough 
for it to pass straight through, and then move toward the 
side and preform a helical move.  Generally, you plunge 
straight to the bottom of the hole and then make the helix 
back out in Z,
this climb mills the thread.  You make slightly more than 
one turn of the helical move, and the entire hole is threaded.

Pretty much all modern CNC controls can do helical 
interpolation.

thread mills are expensive tools, and can only do one thread 
pitch, although they can be used for a range of thread 
diameters.  There is an alternative, a single row thread 
mill.  This can do a wide range of thread pitches, but as it 
only has one row of teeth, you need to make the helix follow 
the entire number of turns of the thread. But, for special 
threads where you don't have either a conventional tap or a 
thread mill, and can't fit the part in a lathe, it can make 
it possible to put the thread in.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 16:21 +, andy pugh wrote:
> On 3 February 2017 at 16:13, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
> > I would like to know where to buy one tool to do that. :-)
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xthread+mill.TRS0&_nkw=thread+mill&_sacat=0
> 


they look like standard taps :-)





Valerio Bellizzomi


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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 February 2017 08:40:43 andy pugh wrote:

> On 3 February 2017 at 13:25, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> > until
> > i read the price... 62Euro!?
>
> Stolen from someone else's web site:
>
> "A terrifying ordeal
>
> Much as one might try (and I did!), it is virtually impossible to cut
> a thread in Ti using a tap.
>
> This led to several problems with the M2X0.4 bolt threads in the rods.
> I don’t have a an M2X0.4 threadmill, there hasn’t been one on EBay in
> over 2 years, they cost about 130 quid new, the shank is so bloody
> thin it looks like it would break as soon as it touched anything and
>  the FP2 won’t do helical interpolation in the Y axis / horizontal
> spindle. I had to bite the bullet and order a threadmill from Isacr in
> the end. I then had to sit down and write a section in the post
> processor to take care if the helical interpolation in different tool
> planes. To see that tiny cutter disappearing up a 1.6mm hole for the
> first time was indeed a terrifying ordeal!"

I can well imagine, I had goosebumps the first time I stuck an 0-80 
conventional tap into the hole,  The hole was in A2, but was in OOTB 
condition. Having 3 holes to tap at the time, I ordered 3 taps. I did 
manage to break one with some stupid code later, but have since tapped 
at least 20 more holes in mild steel, and probably 100 or more in 
micarta.  And still have 2 taps left. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[andy pugh]

On 3 February 2017 at 16:13, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
> I would like to know where to buy one tool to do that. :-)


http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xthread+mill.TRS0&_nkw=thread+mill&_sacat=0

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 10:40 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 03 February 2017 02:59:21 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> 
> > http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4
> 
> We can already do that, if we had the tap tool. And it would be a great 
> way but there will always be some tightening of the fit toward the 
> bottom of the hole due to tool flex if using the longer conventional tap 
> form.  I liked that short, only 2 or 3 cutting teeth in the last section 
> of the video.
> 
> Use a G2 or G3, with z and p calculated to do the correct pitch. I have a 
> single groove, 6 HSS teeth at a time tool, but I've not used it, its 
> 3/4" in diameter but I've not needed a tapped hole that big, yet.  
> Someday...
> 
> If Delta was trying to make us jealous?  Nah, couldn't happen. :) But 
> where do we source tooling optimized for that?
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett



I would like to know where to buy one tool to do that. :-)

I am starting to build a new cnc machine, when finished I will need one
of those tools.



Valerio Bellizzomi



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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 February 2017 06:28:08 andy pugh wrote:

> On 3 February 2017 at 11:19, Valerio Bellizzomi  
wrote:
> > With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal
> > when tapping
>
> Yes, but, unless there is something very clever going on in those
> animations, you need a cutting tool with zero lead.
> I am about 80% convinced that you can#t do it with a standard tap.

You couldn't Andy. Unless you could somehow synchronize the spindle with 
the g2/g3 motion so it always presented the same cutting edge to the 
cut.  But with a single point, multi-toothed tool, tapping a BIG hole is 
just some math. I have a tool but its minimum hole size for the start 
would likely be at least 100mm as its about .7500" across its tips.  Any 
smaller than that and the threads would be widened by the tips of the 
cutter swinging into and back out of max diameter of the threads. That, 
for a decent thread, whole require the hole diameter to be at least 5x 
its diameter. Either that, or have the spindle mounted on some sort of a 
circle wobulator so the lead was simulated by tipping the spindle in 
time with the circular progression.

Those tools in the video were obviously without any lead IOW.  And likely 
not a 60 degree v.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 February 2017 02:59:21 Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:

> http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4

We can already do that, if we had the tap tool. And it would be a great 
way but there will always be some tightening of the fit toward the 
bottom of the hole due to tool flex if using the longer conventional tap 
form.  I liked that short, only 2 or 3 cutting teeth in the last section 
of the video.

Use a G2 or G3, with z and p calculated to do the correct pitch. I have a 
single groove, 6 HSS teeth at a time tool, but I've not used it, its 
3/4" in diameter but I've not needed a tapped hole that big, yet.  
Someday...

If Delta was trying to make us jealous?  Nah, couldn't happen. :) But 
where do we source tooling optimized for that?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Bengt Sjölund]

Not OK for bottom threaded holes ;)
/Bengt


Den 2017-02-03 kl. 14:25, skrev TJoseph Powderly:
> well its a lot more than the old draps and dreamers
> http://www.dreamertool.com/drapreg.html
>
> tomp tjtr33


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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[andy pugh]

On 3 February 2017 at 13:25, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> until
> i read the price... 62Euro!?

Stolen from someone else's web site:

"A terrifying ordeal

Much as one might try (and I did!), it is virtually impossible to cut
a thread in Ti using a tap.

This led to several problems with the M2X0.4 bolt threads in the rods.
I don’t have a an M2X0.4 threadmill, there hasn’t been one on EBay in
over 2 years, they cost about 130 quid new, the shank is so bloody
thin it looks like it would break as soon as it touched anything and
 the FP2 won’t do helical interpolation in the Y axis / horizontal
spindle. I had to bite the bullet and order a threadmill from Isacr in
the end. I then had to sit down and write a section in the post
processor to take care if the helical interpolation in different tool
planes. To see that tiny cutter disappearing up a 1.6mm hole for the
first time was indeed a terrifying ordeal!"

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[TJoseph Powderly]

very nice idea, bore & thread with 1 tool
but i _thought_
"this puts a lot of work on the lead edge, and the circular 
interpolation avoided that"
but then i read that it was meant for non-ferrous materials
so no heart attack
until
i read the price... 62Euro!?

well its a lot more than the old draps and dreamers
http://www.dreamertool.com/drapreg.html

tomp tjtr33

On 02/03/17 18:53, Bengt Sjölund wrote:
> https://shop.vhf.de/catalogs/Thread-cutters-W_GW.htm
>
> https://shop.vhf.de/articleGroups/Circular-thread-cutters-W_GW_BGF.htm
>
> I am very fond of the one above = 2 tools in 1
>
> Cheers
> Bengt
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Bengt Sjölund]

https://shop.vhf.de/catalogs/Thread-cutters-W_GW.htm

https://shop.vhf.de/articleGroups/Circular-thread-cutters-W_GW_BGF.htm

I am very fond of the one above = 2 tools in 1

Cheers
Bengt


Den 2017-02-03 kl. 12:46, skrev Valerio Bellizzomi:
> On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 11:28 +, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 3 February 2017 at 11:19, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
>>> With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal when
>>> tapping
>> Yes, but, unless there is something very clever going on in those
>> animations, you need a cutting tool with zero lead.
>> I am about 80% convinced that you can#t do it with a standard tap.
>>
>>
>>
>
> It needs a special tool
>
> http://www.infodelta.it/foto/Filettatura%20interpolata.jpg
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 11:28 +, andy pugh wrote:
> On 3 February 2017 at 11:19, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
> > With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal when
> > tapping
> 
> Yes, but, unless there is something very clever going on in those
> animations, you need a cutting tool with zero lead.
> I am about 80% convinced that you can#t do it with a standard tap.
> 
> 
> 


It needs a special tool

http://www.infodelta.it/foto/Filettatura%20interpolata.jpg




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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[andy pugh]

On 3 February 2017 at 11:19, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
> With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal when
> tapping

Yes, but, unless there is something very clever going on in those
animations, you need a cutting tool with zero lead.
I am about 80% convinced that you can#t do it with a standard tap.



-- 
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

With this interpolated motion there is no need for spindle reversal when
tapping

it is also faster as the tool can move out from the hole rapidly




On Fri, 2017-02-03 at 18:06 +0700, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> i've not done it with linuxcnc
> we did it a lot in heidenhain tnc controls for sink edm
> 
> google thread milling
> 
> you need a tool with the correct pitch on smaller shank than the drilled 
> hole
> 
> how the metal is attacked can be:
>   goto to the bottom before interpolating an expanding circle
> or
>   helix down at the desired radius
> 
> multiple passes can do roughing and finishing
> 
> Linuxcnc has the primitives to do this
> this is an application not a special motion ( afaict )
> 
> the problem in sink edm was that the leading edge of the tool wore out 
> quickly if the tapping was plunged
> versus
> if the path was interpolated (expanded laterally from center),
>   then the tool wear was evenly distributed over the tool face
> 
> i'd think the same advantages occur in chip machining
> 
> also a larger cutting interface occurs ( not a single leading point )
> 
> it was a real advantage when making large diameter threaded plugs ( > 
> 100mm dia )
> and its really simple program
> 
> tomp tjtr33
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/03/17 14:59, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> > http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[TJoseph Powderly]

i've not done it with linuxcnc
we did it a lot in heidenhain tnc controls for sink edm

google thread milling

you need a tool with the correct pitch on smaller shank than the drilled 
hole

how the metal is attacked can be:
  goto to the bottom before interpolating an expanding circle
or
  helix down at the desired radius

multiple passes can do roughing and finishing

Linuxcnc has the primitives to do this
this is an application not a special motion ( afaict )

the problem in sink edm was that the leading edge of the tool wore out 
quickly if the tapping was plunged
versus
if the path was interpolated (expanded laterally from center),
  then the tool wear was evenly distributed over the tool face

i'd think the same advantages occur in chip machining

also a larger cutting interface occurs ( not a single leading point )

it was a real advantage when making large diameter threaded plugs ( > 
100mm dia )
and its really simple program

tomp tjtr33



On 02/03/17 14:59, Valerio Bellizzomi wrote:
> http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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Re: [Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[andy pugh]

On 3 February 2017 at 07:59, Valerio Bellizzomi  wrote:
> http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4

It isn't easy to tell what they are showing.
Initially it looks like thread-milling with a conventional tap.

If you attempt thread-milling with a conventional tap and ignore the
lead then you will just mill a cylindrical face due to the lead.

I can imagine that you could move the X-axis down synchronised with
the tap lead, but I imagine that if you were thread-milling you would
very soon run out of tap length.

Later sections show cutters which are definitely thread-mills.


-- 
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
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[Emc-users] Does anybody know about this interpolated tapping ?

[Valerio Bellizzomi]

http://www.infodelta.it/foto/film/filettatura%20interpolata.mp4






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