Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-29 Thread John Alexander Stewart 
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Ron Ginger 
wrote:

> >> > On 28 August 2016 at 00:18, Jon Elson  wrote:
> >>> >> Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the
> >>> >> whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!
> >> > All based on a total of approx 18 responses from LinuxCNC users,
> >> >
> > JUST 18??  Hmm, this is a pretty sparse survey, then.
> > Disappointing.
> >
> > Jon
>
> Yes, that is a very unrealistic survey. 
>

Well, at least I know that there are at least 18 others out there using
LinuxCNC so it was not totally wasted!

;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

John.
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-29 Thread Ron Ginger 
>> > On 28 August 2016 at 00:18, Jon Elson  wrote:
>>> >> Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the
>>> >> whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!
>> > All based on a total of approx 18 responses from LinuxCNC users,
>> >
> JUST 18??  Hmm, this is a pretty sparse survey, then.
> Disappointing.
>
> Jon

Yes, that is a very unrealistic survey. There is some serious science 
about selecting a survey audience, and I am sure this one did not follow 
any of that. He surveyed readers of his mail list, an obviously 
self-selected group, and those with an interest in his product.

If I were investing in product development I would not base much on this 
survey.

ron ginger

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gregg Eshelman 
What size chuck on the 4th axis? PARAKKEL PORT whomever typed up that label 
didn't proofread :-)



 
  From: Ron Ginger <rongin...@roadrunner.com>
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 2:48 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks
   
On 8/28/2016 11:38 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> Hi Ron. We met at one of your PA cocofests decades ago. I'd like to
> google for that machine, but I'd likely put linuxcnc in it as I'm
> moderately familiar with it.  Name of machine please?
>
> Thanks.

The one I got is http://www.ebay.com/itm/321887320580 There seem to be 
several vendors with the same unit. I ordered from galaxyond. The web 
page says they ship from CA, but mine came from NJ and was here in just 
4 days.

I am running it with Mach4. It simply has a db25 connector on the back, 
so anything that acts like a parallel port will drive it. I still do not 
have the pins sorted out for the spindle control, but I did find the 
stepper connections. They supply a manual with it that shows all the 
mach3 screens for config so you can pick off the necessary pins numbers 
and steps per unit.

ron ginger
   
 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 28 August 2016 16:48:27 Ron Ginger wrote:

> On 8/28/2016 11:38 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> > Hi Ron. We met at one of your PA cocofests decades ago. I'd like to
> > google for that machine, but I'd likely put linuxcnc in it as I'm
> > moderately familiar with it.  Name of machine please?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> The one I got is http://www.ebay.com/itm/321887320580 There seem to be
> several vendors with the same unit. I ordered from galaxyond. The web
> page says they ship from CA, but mine came from NJ and was here in
> just 4 days.
>
> I am running it with Mach4. It simply has a db25 connector on the
> back, so anything that acts like a parallel port will drive it. I
> still do not have the pins sorted out for the spindle control, but I
> did find the stepper connections. They supply a manual with it that
> shows all the mach3 screens for config so you can pick off the
> necessary pins numbers and steps per unit.
>
> ron ginger

I had, 2 years back, looked at that family of machines, but lost interest 
when I found they had more or less normal screws, and at the time, they 
were higher than now.  With a 4th axis, that is now a quite decent 
price.  But I think the objection to the screws still stands.

However I am learning a lesson on screw life.  When I put a 1605 on my 
wildly hacked up 7x12 for its Z screw a couple years ago, I looked at 
the molded felt wipers in both faces of the nut & figured those would do 
an entirely adequate job of wiping away the swarf. I hadn't checked the 
backlash in about a year, which was in the .0015" area then.  In the 
meantime I switched its native mode to mm's. and as it was working on 
the final cuts of a block of cast iron to replace its own weeping willow 
compound feed, I noted it was cutting heavier in one direction than the 
other, this despite its now having tapered gibs. So when the job was 
done, I did some incremental moves, with a dial on the toolpost, and had 
to increase the z backlash to .179 mm's in the ini file to restore a .1" 
move to be .1000 inch.  So when I put that 2505 1500mm screw in the 
Sheldon, I have some brand new but NOS satelllite jack bellows that will 
be put around that screw to help keep it clean.  I bought them intending 
to cover the little monsters screw, but they are both too big around, 
and collapsed, still too long.

As far as that size of machine, the Sable seems to be much better built, 
but will need a better spindle in the long run. I may yet get one for 
pcb carving as the spindle in the one I have used for that on a couple 
dozen occasions peaks at 2500 revs.  So the usable feed rates are only 2 
or 3 times faster than watching grass grow. One double sided board a day 
is not a very good production rate. :(

Take care Ron.  Live long and prosper. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gregg Eshelman 
I've been gathering parts and pieces for a 3D printer for a while. Then I saw a 
review on Hackaday of the Monoprice Select Mini 3D printer. Inexpensive but 
quite well built.
A few weeks later, I decided just for the heck of it to see if jet.com had 
anything for 3D printers and they had that printer on a very good deal so I hit 
the buy button. So far the only problem with it has been the external power 
supply. Seems to be about a 90% failure rate but since it's 12 volt its cheap 
to replace with a first generation Xbox 360 brick, or there are 10 amp ones 
from Amazon that actually are capable of 10 amp output and plug right into the 
printer.
Some people are using the Mini printer to print parts to build bigger printers.



 
  From: Ron Ginger <rongin...@roadrunner.com>
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:16 AM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks
   
>  John Alexander Stewart <ivatt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Agree that LinuxCNC is fantastic.
>> >
>> > What gets me is the number of Mach3 users - why don't they switch? Is it
>> > that they are (essentially) computer illiterate, and know only Windows
>> > (barely), or is it just momentum in the home hobbyist field??
>> >

I think many Mach3 users do not care, or even know, what is running 
their mill or router. They want to make parts, not play with machine 
controls.

The hobby cnc world has moved on in the last few years. When I got into 
this- nearly 20 years ago- you had to build your own, there were no 
choices. Now there are dozens of builders of whole machines, software 
included, ready to just 'plug and play' The world is full of 'makers' 
that want to make things, not work with software. And remember, windows 
won the desktop battle a long time ago.

I just bought an amazing little router- 4 axis, nicely built and 
finished, very nice control console, with a built in VFD for the 800 
watt water cooled spindle all for $900 shipped to my door in 4 days. It 
included a (cracked) copy of Mach3. I am sure most people installing and 
using it have no clue that linuxcnc, or any other software even exists, 
let alone will try to install it.

I am happy to be among the group that likes to play with my control 
software, but I am sure that puts me, and most of the people reading 
this, into a very small community-  maybe this is something we are the 1% :)

ron ginger
   
 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Ron Ginger 
On 8/28/2016 11:38 AM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> Hi Ron. We met at one of your PA cocofests decades ago. I'd like to
> google for that machine, but I'd likely put linuxcnc in it as I'm
> moderately familiar with it.  Name of machine please?
>
> Thanks.

The one I got is http://www.ebay.com/itm/321887320580 There seem to be 
several vendors with the same unit. I ordered from galaxyond. The web 
page says they ship from CA, but mine came from NJ and was here in just 
4 days.

I am running it with Mach4. It simply has a db25 connector on the back, 
so anything that acts like a parallel port will drive it. I still do not 
have the pins sorted out for the spindle control, but I did find the 
stepper connections. They supply a manual with it that shows all the 
mach3 screens for config so you can pick off the necessary pins numbers 
and steps per unit.

ron ginger

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Jon Elson 
On 08/28/2016 12:49 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> I got that survey as an email, but when I went to supply the data asked
> on the web form, I had to fill in lots more personal info than they
> needed to do the survey before I could get to the rate cnc's page. That
> included my unlisted phone number, age, street address etc etc.
>
> Huh?  That screamed phishing, results to be sold to a spammer just to pay
> for his time to do the survey.  TANSTAAFL principle.
>
> So when I could not proceed, I backed out and deleted the email.  If not
> for that, and I hope the person doing the survey is reading this to see
> just how intrusive it was seen by one LCNC user with soon to be 4
> machines running it, the count in the 'for LCNC' column would have been
> one higher.  Or if counting machines, 3 higher with another under
> construction.
>
> How many of the members of this list had the same reaction?
>
>
Hmm, I wouldn't have filled it out, either!  That rather 
explains the sparse results.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Jon Elson 
On 08/28/2016 12:42 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 28 August 2016 at 17:27, Jon Elson  wrote:
>> JUST 18??  Hmm, this is a pretty sparse survey, then.
>> Disappointing.
> 250 responses, 24% low-level controls, 30% of that LinuxCNC.
>
> That does suggest that 7% of all CNC controls are LinuxCNC.
>
7% is WAY higher than any other estimate.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 28 August 2016 12:27:55 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 08/28/2016 05:43 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 28 August 2016 at 00:18, Jon Elson  wrote:
> >> Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the
> >> whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!
> >
> > All based on a total of approx 18 responses from LinuxCNC users,
>
> JUST 18??  Hmm, this is a pretty sparse survey, then.
> Disappointing.
>
> Jon
>
I got that survey as an email, but when I went to supply the data asked 
on the web form, I had to fill in lots more personal info than they 
needed to do the survey before I could get to the rate cnc's page. That 
included my unlisted phone number, age, street address etc etc.

Huh?  That screamed phishing, results to be sold to a spammer just to pay 
for his time to do the survey.  TANSTAAFL principle.

So when I could not proceed, I backed out and deleted the email.  If not 
for that, and I hope the person doing the survey is reading this to see 
just how intrusive it was seen by one LCNC user with soon to be 4 
machines running it, the count in the 'for LCNC' column would have been 
one higher.  Or if counting machines, 3 higher with another under 
construction.

How many of the members of this list had the same reaction?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread andy pugh 
On 28 August 2016 at 17:27, Jon Elson  wrote:
> JUST 18??  Hmm, this is a pretty sparse survey, then.
> Disappointing.

250 responses, 24% low-level controls, 30% of that LinuxCNC.

That does suggest that 7% of all CNC controls are LinuxCNC.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Jon Elson 
On 08/28/2016 05:43 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 28 August 2016 at 00:18, Jon Elson  wrote:
>> Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the
>> whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!
> All based on a total of approx 18 responses from LinuxCNC users,
>
JUST 18??  Hmm, this is a pretty sparse survey, then. 
Disappointing.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 28 August 2016 09:23:58 John Alexander Stewart wrote:

> Ron - as usual from you, very good comments.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Ron Ginger 
>
> wrote:
> > I am happy to be among the group that likes to play with my control
> > software, but I am sure that puts me, and most of the people reading
> > this, into a very small community-  maybe this is something we are
> > the 1%
> >
> > :)
>
> Yes, and getting smaller, from my vantage point.

I'd like to think I am in that group even if my beard and hair have lost 
their color over the last 8 decades.

And the smaller our group gets, the farther this country falls behind the 
rest of the planet in true creativity.  There are people out there that 
can, but won't, they would rather buy and accept the limits of that.

Sad as can be.  And yes, I think LinuxCNC rocks.  Within the limits of 
affordable cutting tools, some of which I've made myself for my 
woodworking projects, LinuxCNC has been able to do anything I want it to 
do. Anything.
>
> Thank you - JohnS.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 28 August 2016 08:16:11 Ron Ginger wrote:

> >  John Alexander Stewart  wrote:
> >> > Agree that LinuxCNC is fantastic.
> >> >
> >> > What gets me is the number of Mach3 users - why don't they
> >> > switch? Is it that they are (essentially) computer illiterate,
> >> > and know only Windows (barely), or is it just momentum in the
> >> > home hobbyist field??
>
> I think many Mach3 users do not care, or even know, what is running
> their mill or router. They want to make parts, not play with machine
> controls.
>
> The hobby cnc world has moved on in the last few years. When I got
> into this- nearly 20 years ago- you had to build your own, there were
> no choices. Now there are dozens of builders of whole machines,
> software included, ready to just 'plug and play' The world is full of
> 'makers' that want to make things, not work with software. And
> remember, windows won the desktop battle a long time ago.
>
> I just bought an amazing little router- 4 axis, nicely built and
> finished, very nice control console, with a built in VFD for the 800
> watt water cooled spindle all for $900 shipped to my door in 4 days.
> It included a (cracked) copy of Mach3. I am sure most people
> installing and using it have no clue that linuxcnc, or any other
> software even exists, let alone will try to install it.
>
> I am happy to be among the group that likes to play with my control
> software, but I am sure that puts me, and most of the people reading
> this, into a very small community-  maybe this is something we are the
> 1% :)
>
> ron ginger

Hi Ron. We met at one of your PA cocofests decades ago. I'd like to 
google for that machine, but I'd likely put linuxcnc in it as I'm 
moderately familiar with it.  Name of machine please?

Thanks.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks (instable control)

2016-08-28 Thread Nicklas Karlsson 
I once got the parameters for the servos wrong and indeed the whole machined 
rocked.

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Ron Ginger 
>  John Alexander Stewart  wrote:
>> > Agree that LinuxCNC is fantastic.
>> >
>> > What gets me is the number of Mach3 users - why don't they switch? Is it
>> > that they are (essentially) computer illiterate, and know only Windows
>> > (barely), or is it just momentum in the home hobbyist field??
>> >

I think many Mach3 users do not care, or even know, what is running 
their mill or router. They want to make parts, not play with machine 
controls.

The hobby cnc world has moved on in the last few years. When I got into 
this- nearly 20 years ago- you had to build your own, there were no 
choices. Now there are dozens of builders of whole machines, software 
included, ready to just 'plug and play' The world is full of 'makers' 
that want to make things, not work with software. And remember, windows 
won the desktop battle a long time ago.

I just bought an amazing little router- 4 axis, nicely built and 
finished, very nice control console, with a built in VFD for the 800 
watt water cooled spindle all for $900 shipped to my door in 4 days. It 
included a (cracked) copy of Mach3. I am sure most people installing and 
using it have no clue that linuxcnc, or any other software even exists, 
let alone will try to install it.

I am happy to be among the group that likes to play with my control 
software, but I am sure that puts me, and most of the people reading 
this, into a very small community-  maybe this is something we are the 1% :)

ron ginger

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread andy pugh 
On 28 August 2016 at 00:18, Jon Elson  wrote:
> Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the
> whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!

All based on a total of approx 18 responses from LinuxCNC users,

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Andreas Pettersson 
Setting up the 5i25 or 6i25 with a 7i77 is definitly not turnkey unless you
are intimatly familiar with how both hw and sw works.

compared to most windows solution that is up and running within a couple of
hours. tuning and setting up and finding out howto with linuxcnc is a
tremendous pain that takes weeks to months for the new user.

On Aug 28, 2016 11:47, "andy pugh"  wrote:

> On 28 August 2016 at 09:12, Lester Caine  wrote:
> > I've 2 CNC lathes sitting in storage waiting for computers to go with
> > them. Actually 3 but the third still needs the electronics rebuilding.
> > The hold-up is that Mach3 lathe will do some jobs but I'm not as
> > confident it will be as productive as the mills are. ELS is a possible
> > half way house, but I think these machines deserve some hardware that
> > will use the encoders on their spindles, and for that I think the
> > coprocessor approach is the best way forward, but the LinuxCNC options
> > still need to become a little more mature?
>
> When you say "coprocessor" are you talking about things like
> BeagleBone (remote CPU running LinuxCNC) or Mesa/Pico (FPGA running
> high-speed realtime tasks)?
> I think that for a servo system PnCConf setting up a Mesa 5i25/7i76
> system is _largely_ turnkey, but some configuration is likely to be
> needed for the toolchanger simply because there is such a variation.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 28 August 2016 04:12:03 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 28/08/16 07:35, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> > One interesting, but not unexpected, result from the survey is what
> > is happening to Mach3, and not happening to Mach4. I run Mach3 as
> > well as LinuxCNC, but it has been stuck in a time warp for a long
> > time now, and I suspect it will gradually flop to a soft landing as
> > XP machines die. Mach 4 is not showing the same signs of mass
> > adoption, perhaps because of the price. That tells us something
> > about the market, too.
>
> I'm running the same version of Mach3 that I installed on W2k and it
> does the job of running the mill perfectly for me ... and my
> customers. I keep saying I need to retry running LinuxCNC, but
> currently all the spare time is taken up with other jobs. Such as
> keeping my main business clients working on W10 which has yet to
> become stable enough to rely on. All those sites ran XP for years
> without a single problem!
>
> I've 2 CNC lathes sitting in storage waiting for computers to go with
> them. Actually 3 but the third still needs the electronics rebuilding.
> The hold-up is that Mach3 lathe will do some jobs but I'm not as
> confident it will be as productive as the mills are. ELS is a possible
> half way house, but I think these machines deserve some hardware that
> will use the encoders on their spindles, and for that I think the
> coprocessor approach is the best way forward, but the LinuxCNC options
> still need to become a little more mature? Anybody working on an
> interface to PokeysCNC or better still an alternative which we can
> develop the code for ourselves?


Precisely Lester. I have used some code generators, such as the output 
translator for the eagle pcb designer, and am dissappointed in the 
bulkiness of the code so generated. And in its lack of fine detail and 
the one of 8 directions for a machine move.

For everyday use, I write my own code, often more than one file to 
complete a project, and I make very heavy use of LCNC's ability to run 
in a while loop.  The job my toy lathe finished about midnight last 
night would be a good example, carving a tool post support from a block 
of cast iron for itself as I am replacing that willowy compound feed 
with a solid block of metal whose top and bottom surfaces were purposely 
carved about a thousandth hollow ground. Less than 40 LOC, it was edited 
and restarted where it left off several times, but will be re-installed 
today.  That and tapered gibs have done wonders for the accuracy of a 
repowered, pushing 20 yo 7x12 lathe. The hollow grind? Puts the cutting 
forces on the outside edge of its footprint on the cross slide, 
enhancing its rigidity a lot, and on top furnishes about a 5x 
improvement in the ability of setting the QC holder at a fixed angle and 
having it stay there. The top of the compound is so thin that I pulled 
the threads out of the original one trying to keep the tool post from 
rotating under load.

I will be doing a similar tool post support on the 11x36 Sheldon I just 
bought as the threads in the cross and compound nuts were both severely 
shot, and rather than try to remake new nuts, getting rid of the damaged 
ways compound (ways tapered by about 15 thou, no clue how that was done 
as it doesn't look like wear), and putting in ball screws made far more 
sense. But progress is slow for 2 reasons, first being my ancient back. 
Sitting down to write code sure beats standing there for hours slowly 
turning cranks. I can do in code, what would be impossible for me to do 
by hand.

I may ask for help here because my math skills aren't calculus level, 
never were. I quit school in the middle of the 9th grade in 1948 to go 
fix tv's for a living so I officially have an 8th grade education. I'll 
be 82 in about 5 weeks, so fading wet ram is at work too.

I'd go so far as to say that if you can't write gcode on your own, you 
are a slave to whatever you can buy a license for, often at prohibitive 
costs with per annum support figures that would scare an SS recipient 
into finding a different hobby.  That is not supportable unless you can 
bill per machine hour to pay for it.  I have enough projects of my own 
and have no intention of soliciting work for them.

To me, learning to use the cad tools is a far steeper learning curve than 
reading the docs and writing my own code, often for one or 2 off parts.

And it keeps me out of the bars. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread andy pugh 
On 28 August 2016 at 09:12, Lester Caine  wrote:
> I've 2 CNC lathes sitting in storage waiting for computers to go with
> them. Actually 3 but the third still needs the electronics rebuilding.
> The hold-up is that Mach3 lathe will do some jobs but I'm not as
> confident it will be as productive as the mills are. ELS is a possible
> half way house, but I think these machines deserve some hardware that
> will use the encoders on their spindles, and for that I think the
> coprocessor approach is the best way forward, but the LinuxCNC options
> still need to become a little more mature?

When you say "coprocessor" are you talking about things like
BeagleBone (remote CPU running LinuxCNC) or Mesa/Pico (FPGA running
high-speed realtime tasks)?
I think that for a servo system PnCConf setting up a Mesa 5i25/7i76
system is _largely_ turnkey, but some configuration is likely to be
needed for the toolchanger simply because there is such a variation.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Bertho Stultiens 
Hi All,

I agree with the conclusion that LinuxCNC rocks. Most, if not all,
functionality you want is there and you just need to tap into that.
However, the main obstacle I see is the very steep learning curve for
tuning the software to fit the particular setup.

This is the ever recurring problem of complex systems. You can provide
flexibility to do anything, which makes it hard, or you provide
simplicity and only cover a partial feature set.

Big companies have enough resources to do their own development and have
the knowledge internal. They can provide a turnkey solution where the
customer only sees a small part of the overall complexity and have
abstracted most things behind propriety.

Complex open systems generally live on the documentation they provide to
make the "customer" happy. And that documentation is very hard to write.
It needs to provide structured and organized information on many
different levels, one level for each type of user.

The ability for a user to find a solution for their specific problem
(fast) is a good measure of usability. And that does not include having
to read several books of background information and distilling the
fraction needed. In my opinion, here lies the problem and biggest hurdle
at the moment.

To be honest, I am not a good writer, but I do recognize good written
information. Most specialists share a common problem, me included. A
specialist is not always a good teacher. And to write good
documentation, you need to have some of those pedagogy skills. Luckily,
it is not all bad. It is often a matter of group focus and lots and lots
of time. If LinuxCNC can flatten the learning curve just a bit, it will
rock even more.

-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Lester Caine 
On 28/08/16 07:35, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> One interesting, but not unexpected, result from the survey is what is 
> happening to Mach3, and not happening to Mach4. I run Mach3 as well as 
> LinuxCNC, but it has been stuck in a time warp for a long time now, and I 
> suspect it will gradually flop to a soft landing as XP machines die. Mach 4 
> is not showing the same signs of mass adoption, perhaps because of the price. 
> That tells us something about the market, too.

I'm running the same version of Mach3 that I installed on W2k and it
does the job of running the mill perfectly for me ... and my customers.
I keep saying I need to retry running LinuxCNC, but currently all the
spare time is taken up with other jobs. Such as keeping my main business
clients working on W10 which has yet to become stable enough to rely on.
All those sites ran XP for years without a single problem!

I've 2 CNC lathes sitting in storage waiting for computers to go with
them. Actually 3 but the third still needs the electronics rebuilding.
The hold-up is that Mach3 lathe will do some jobs but I'm not as
confident it will be as productive as the mills are. ELS is a possible
half way house, but I think these machines deserve some hardware that
will use the encoders on their spindles, and for that I think the
coprocessor approach is the best way forward, but the LinuxCNC options
still need to become a little more mature? Anybody working on an
interface to PokeysCNC or better still an alternative which we can
develop the code for ourselves?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-28 Thread Marcus Bowman 
Bob Warfield's comments on his survey are interesting, and perhaps give some 
clues as to the way things are going.

Firstly, he notes that the rise of popularity LinuxCNC coincides with the 
creation of PathPilot. No surprise there, in the sense that PathPilot has 
brought associated publicity.

Second, he says that "It’s also clear that the new controls that don’t require 
PC’s such as GRBL are taking share rapidly too." I find that significant as it 
echoes what has happened in computing as a whole. I'm old enough to remember 
the days of pre-personal computing, and I see the same broad pattern developing 
with computers and software, where the user's need for an understanding of the 
electronics and of what goes on under the hood has been cleverly minimised. I 
used to teach all that stuff for a living, but you would be hard pushed to get 
much interest now. That's a big disadvantage for potential customers/users, 
particularly if you are asking them to switch from one of the attractive 
GUI-driven packages to something which requires more knowledge and intervention 
from the user (like LinuxCNC). Conversely, the ability to intervene and 
customise is one of the great strengths of LinuxCNC, and, to some extent, Linux 
itself.

I have a friend who is extremely versed in computing, electronics and software, 
having worked for one of the very large computing firms since the very early 
days, He's just built a router, but, despite his ability with Linux, has opted 
for a GRBL board because it is a fit-and-forget solution (and its also 
relatively cheap by comparison with a full pc solution). 
Bob's survey comments on the rise of this kind of device. One could argue that 
LinuxCNC should run on a cheap single-board computer like the BeagleBone, but 
others have pursued a flavour of that sort, to some extent. Yes; I know it 
precludes the likes of the MESA boards, and is a somewhat crippled solution, 
but my point is that a substantial slice of the potential market is looking for 
that kind of solution.

One interesting, but not unexpected, result from the survey is what is 
happening to Mach3, and not happening to Mach4. I run Mach3 as well as 
LinuxCNC, but it has been stuck in a time warp for a long time now, and I 
suspect it will gradually flop to a soft landing as XP machines die. Mach 4 is 
not showing the same signs of mass adoption, perhaps because of the price. That 
tells us something about the market, too.

PathPilot has brought some good publicity and awareness, and that may be paying 
off for the LinuxCNC community.
Those who come to LinuxCNC need to be computer literate, but those are the very 
folks who may be more likely to be able to contribute to development. 
'Ordinary' users won't/can't, and those who run a CAD/CAM package which will 
output G-code for LinuxCNC (like the Vectric packages, for example) need only 
run LinuxCNC rather than use it to its full potential, so they are unlikely to 
contribute to development either, except perhaps to suggest directions for 
development.


Marcus

  
On 28 Aug 2016, at 00:30, John Alexander Stewart wrote:

> Agree that LinuxCNC is fantastic.
> 
> What gets me is the number of Mach3 users - why don't they switch? Is it
> that they are (essentially) computer illiterate, and know only Windows
> (barely), or is it just momentum in the home hobbyist field??
> 
> (I'm lucky in that I was "into" wire-wrapping computers as a teenager (RCA
> 1802, Intel 8085...) but I do understand that many of my age group have a
> different relationship with computers, so when I ask the first question,
> above, it's not meant as a slight against them - it's just - how do we get
> more people to use and improve LinuxCNC?)
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Saturday 27 August 2016 21:50:52 Greg Bentzinger wrote:

> Way back in the early days of EMC2 the first OEM to pick it up was
> Sherline.
>
> Next came Smithy tools. Then nothing new for years until EMC2 morphed
> into LinuxCNC by force and matured both in features and hardware
> support to the point that the next OEM to pick up LinuxCNC was Tormach
> with there own branded version. This was the biggest jump, still
> within the pro-sumer market and not a major OEM machine builder. The
> best part of this is it exposed many high end hobbyists to LinuxCNC
> and many of those had other home conversion CNC equipment that was a
> perfect match to expand LinuxCNC use. I admit the Rongfu has also made
> LCNC an option on some of its lower end turn key CNC mills. I have yet
> to actually see one in the U.S. but the home website claims they are
> available.
>
>
> Seriously though, its going to take another major OEM to adopt
> LinuxCNC to give us the exposure needed to attract major user share.
> Also as our Power users get better, making more custom POST options
> which make use of LCNC for Fusion 360 would help dramatically.
>
>
> Seimens and several new noname Chi-com control makers are now gaining
> market share in both new machine builds and retrofits.You can give
> credit to Microsoft for demonizing Windows XP for the drop in Mach 3
> users - that and the MACH team dropping of further development of that
> product.
>
>
> On the other hand FADAL is becoming a footnote in history and there
> are alot of those machines out there with no real factory support or
> upgrade options. HAAS swallowed up FADAL's market share as they
> dropped out of the picture and did it with a more user friendly
> control - albeit one which I consider lousy in its actual G-Code
> execution when compared to FANUC or MAZAK. I am also not a fan of the
> HAAS machines themselves, they had the highest percentage of down time
> and highest cost of repairs of any brand I have ever used. That
> applies to both the milling and turning centers.
>
> In one respect LinuxCNC's biggest strength is also it biggest
> weakness. The fact that LCNC is a virtual one size fits all means that
> most applications are unique. Tormach has only a few configs to deal
> with, but is putting out the greatest number of LCNC equipped
> machines.
>
> LCNC requires its machine integrators to do there home work and solve
> problems. Lazy people hate homework. Others just are afraid to try
> Linux - yet God knows there are enough MAC users out there and most
> have no clue whats really happening under the hood of their hardware,
> all they know is it mostly works. People fail to believe that Linux is
> the same thing, it mostly just works.
>
> Greg, Out yonder in Colorado.

You left out one vital thing. Linux fixes stuff as its found, all the 
user has to do it run the update tools to take advantage of that in a 
time frame that blows the rest of them out of the water.

Time wasted is money wasted, and if you fuss loud enough, winderz might 
fix it on patch tuesday. But the question is which tuesday. Much the 
same thing can be said of Apple's hacked up BSD.  But I've not heard a 
lot of noise about Apple fixing problems in between releases.  A savvy 
enough programmer can work on BSD and make printing work again, which I 
find odd since I've known Mike Sweet, aka cups, since he was a starving 
student named dodgecolt on delphi 30 years ago.  The stuff he wrote for 
the coco for school grades back in the day usually needed help before it 
ran well.  Now he's high in the apple tree, having sold cups to apple 
several years ago, with him as the head honcho of printing.  So my 
impression is that every new release generally fixes the outstanding 
problems, but intro's a slew of new ones.

In contrast, I have been witness on several occasions of a bug being 
found in linux, and the fixed source code will usually be in the 
pipeline by the time you loaded the coffee pot the next morning, or in 
one case a few years back, in 30 minutes.  The  big lag, unless you want 
to build your own, is in the distro's.  Everybody and his goat has to 
pass judgement on the patch, and see how it works with their favorite 
patches for 2 or more weeks before the deb or rpm might land in the 
repo's.  That lag is BS, but it is what it is.

Sure, the src for bsd can be had, but how many branding patches has apple 
added, so you wait for apple just like you wait for windows.

But a savvy programmer doesn't have to wait, he can pull the source files 
and build/install on his machine in 30 to 45 minutes. I have done that 
myself probably a hundred times starting with kernel 2.00.  But then 
they started playing 52 pickup with the build tools and my scripts 
couldn't keep up, so I quit that at about kernel 3.2.  But it can be 
done, and I don't believe another OS can truthfully make that statement.

And that right there, is to me, the best sales pitch you can make in 
favor of linux.  It can

Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread Greg Bentzinger 
Way back in the early days of EMC2 the first OEM to pick it up was Sherline.

Next came Smithy tools. Then nothing new for years until EMC2 morphed into 
LinuxCNC by force and matured both in features and hardware support to the 
point that the next OEM to pick up LinuxCNC was Tormach with there own branded 
version. This was the biggest jump, still within the pro-sumer market and not a 
major OEM machine builder. The best part of this is it exposed many high end 
hobbyists to LinuxCNC and many of those had other home conversion CNC equipment 
that was a perfect match to expand LinuxCNC use. I admit the Rongfu has also 
made LCNC an option on some of its lower end turn key CNC mills. I have yet to 
actually see one in the U.S. but the home website claims they are available.


Seriously though, its going to take another major OEM to adopt LinuxCNC to give 
us the exposure needed to attract major user share. Also as our Power users get 
better, making more custom POST options which make use of LCNC for Fusion 360 
would help dramatically.


Seimens and several new noname Chi-com control makers are now gaining market 
share in both new machine builds and retrofits.You can give credit to Microsoft 
for demonizing Windows XP for the drop in Mach 3 users - that and the MACH team 
dropping of further development of that product.


On the other hand FADAL is becoming a footnote in history and there are alot of 
those machines out there with no real factory support or upgrade options. HAAS 
swallowed up FADAL's market share as they dropped out of the picture and did it 
with a more user friendly control - albeit one which I consider lousy in its 
actual G-Code execution when compared to FANUC or MAZAK. I am also not a fan of 
the HAAS machines themselves, they had the highest percentage of down time and 
highest cost of repairs of any brand I have ever used. That applies to both the 
milling and turning centers.

In one respect LinuxCNC's biggest strength is also it biggest weakness. The 
fact that LCNC is a virtual one size fits all means that most applications are 
unique. Tormach has only a few configs to deal with, but is putting out the 
greatest number of LCNC equipped machines.

LCNC requires its machine integrators to do there home work and solve problems. 
Lazy people hate homework. Others just are afraid to try Linux - yet God knows 
there are enough MAC users out there and most have no clue whats really 
happening under the hood of their hardware, all they know is it mostly works. 
People fail to believe that Linux is the same thing, it mostly just works.

Greg, Out yonder in Colorado.

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread dannym 
No offense but Mach3 is pretty straightforward to set up, mostly.  The basic 
stuff.  

Installing Linux and LinuxCNC is not really turnkey tech, not even close.  Then 
once you go to a Mesa card, the stepconfig wizard isn't an option, and figuring 
out how to do it from scratch is FANTASTICALLY difficult.  You need to know a 
lot, although that knowledge comes in handy in a million ways later.

No offense but I've noted this.  Not only is there not a lot of clear, 
straightforward examples, even the experts have given me buggy code that won't 
work as-is until you learn how it works anyways and figure out why it's not 
doing it.  Not complaining, it's free help, but that's the situation.

Danny

 John Alexander Stewart  wrote: 
> Agree that LinuxCNC is fantastic.
> 
> What gets me is the number of Mach3 users - why don't they switch? Is it
> that they are (essentially) computer illiterate, and know only Windows
> (barely), or is it just momentum in the home hobbyist field??
> 
> (I'm lucky in that I was "into" wire-wrapping computers as a teenager (RCA
> 1802, Intel 8085...) but I do understand that many of my age group have a
> different relationship with computers, so when I ask the first question,
> above, it's not meant as a slight against them - it's just - how do we get
> more people to use and improve LinuxCNC?)
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread John Alexander Stewart 
Agree that LinuxCNC is fantastic.

What gets me is the number of Mach3 users - why don't they switch? Is it
that they are (essentially) computer illiterate, and know only Windows
(barely), or is it just momentum in the home hobbyist field??

(I'm lucky in that I was "into" wire-wrapping computers as a teenager (RCA
1802, Intel 8085...) but I do understand that many of my age group have a
different relationship with computers, so when I ask the first question,
above, it's not meant as a slight against them - it's just - how do we get
more people to use and improve LinuxCNC?)
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread dannym 
I started in Mach3, thought LinuxCNC was a bit beta (was like 2005).  Invested 
a tremendous amount of time in it.

Since then I've initially been excited for Mach3 Smoothstepper motion 
controllers, then disillusioned when I found how irreparably buggy it was with 
Mach3, and found the XHC mpg was similarly disappointing on Mach3.  Mach4 was 
vaporware which appeared like it was gonna be wholly disappointing.  

Since then Linux when to a realtime kernel, a LinuxCNC RTK was created, and the 
Mesa 7i92 cards came out, and Mach3 became a joke by comparison.  

As much frustration as I have getting LinuxCNC to do what I need, I still 
absolutely love it.

Danny

 Jon Elson  wrote: 
> On 08/27/2016 04:42 PM, Andrew wrote:
> > Interesting data
> > http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2016/08/26/outstanding-satisfaction-loved-cnc-controls-2016/
> >
> >
> Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the 
> whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread Jon Elson 
On 08/27/2016 04:42 PM, Andrew wrote:
> Interesting data
> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2016/08/26/outstanding-satisfaction-loved-cnc-controls-2016/
>
>
Oh, they have the share data if you click the link for the 
whole survey.  VERY impressive numbers for LinuxCNC!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread Jon Elson 
On 08/27/2016 04:42 PM, Andrew wrote:
> Interesting data
> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2016/08/26/outstanding-satisfaction-loved-cnc-controls-2016/
>
>
WOW!  I'd really love to see how many responses they got for 
each of these!

Jon

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[Emc-users] LinuxCNC officially rocks

2016-08-27 Thread Andrew 
Interesting data
http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2016/08/26/outstanding-satisfaction-loved-cnc-controls-2016/

Andrew
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