Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Gentle persons: Viesturs' 100.000 USD means 100 thousand dollars, not 100 dollars. Ya gotta watch out for the pesky , vs . convention for demarking thousands. Regards, Kent -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Yes, Kent is right, typing 100'000 would have been better. My apologies :)) Viesturs 2010/4/21 Kent A. Reed knbr...@erols.com: Gentle persons: Viesturs' 100.000 USD means 100 thousand dollars, not 100 dollars. Ya gotta watch out for the pesky , vs . convention for demarking thousands. Regards, Kent -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Ok... now that makes even more sense those , vs . have bitten me more than once .. I was on the verge of asking Viesturs if he was involved in a midnight machine sale of some type! But I didn't want to go there ...;-) Dave On 4/21/2010 10:11 AM, Kent A. Reed wrote: Gentle persons: Viesturs' 100.000 USD means 100 thousand dollars, not 100 dollars. Ya gotta watch out for the pesky , vs . convention for demarking thousands. Regards, Kent -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Hello, Dave! Please, could You be more specific - what did You mean? Don't worry, i do not think that there is any kind of offense :) Viesturs 2010/4/21 Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com: Ok... now that makes even more sense those , vs . have bitten me more than once .. I was on the verge of asking Viesturs if he was involved in a midnight machine sale of some type! But I didn't want to go there ... ;-) Dave On 4/21/2010 10:11 AM, Kent A. Reed wrote: Gentle persons: Viesturs' 100.000 USD means 100 thousand dollars, not 100 dollars. Ya gotta watch out for the pesky , vs . convention for demarking thousands. Regards, Kent -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Sorry Viesturs, Humor oftentimes gets lost between languages .. In the USA, at least in the upper central region, a midnight auto supply is a slang term for a supplier of stolen auto parts. Consequently my reference to a midnight machine sale since I thought you obtained the machine at a very very low price... It was a joke.. nothing serious.. Dave On 4/21/2010 10:42 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: Hello, Dave! Please, could You be more specific - what did You mean? Don't worry, i do not think that there is any kind of offense :) Viesturs 2010/4/21 Davee...@dc9.tzo.com: Ok... now that makes even more sense those , vs . have bitten me more than once .. I was on the verge of asking Viesturs if he was involved in a midnight machine sale of some type! But I didn't want to go there ...;-) Dave On 4/21/2010 10:11 AM, Kent A. Reed wrote: Gentle persons: Viesturs' 100.000 USD means 100 thousand dollars, not 100 dollars. Ya gotta watch out for the pesky , vs . convention for demarking thousands. Regards, Kent -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Yes, SheetCam can do tangential control. The tricky bit will be the mechanical design. You need to make sure the point where the jet contacts the work does not move at all as you rotate it. Can you get a joint that will withstand the pressure and allow rotation? Les Eric H. Johnson wrote: Viesturs, I was able to do it through Sheetcam (http://www.sheetcam.com/) and slightly customizing the post for some special conditions required for use with an ultrasonic knife. I expect Leslie Newell will chime in on this, as it does require a special post which I do not believe is included in the standard distribution of sheetcam. Regards, Eric -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
2010/4/20 Leslie Newell les.new...@fastmail.co.uk: Yes, SheetCam can do tangential control. Ok, that is great, but that software still costs money (at least 110 GBP, which is something like probably 140 EUR or 180 USD, which is almost 20 times less than other CAM software for waterjet that i have found). I would like to do it without any additional cost and in EMC so that i can use my current CAM application, so that is why i was asking, if someone has managed to implement preprocessor for EMC that does tangential control. The tricky bit will be the mechanical design. You need to make sure the point where the jet contacts the work does not move at all as you rotate it. No, that point will move, if the head rotates around C and the head is tilted around B axis. I believe that some additional work with kinematics module will solve this issue and EMC will calculate all the necessary compensating moves Can you get a joint that will withstand the pressure and allow rotation? My apologies, i do not completely understand, what did You mean by this question :) Viesturs Eric H. Johnson wrote: Viesturs, I was able to do it through Sheetcam (http://www.sheetcam.com/) and slightly customizing the post for some special conditions required for use with an ultrasonic knife. I expect Leslie Newell will chime in on this, as it does require a special post which I do not believe is included in the standard distribution of sheetcam. Regards, Eric -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
I would like to do it without any additional cost and in EMC so that i can use my current CAM application, so that is why i was asking, if someone has managed to implement preprocessor for EMC that does tangential control. I fully understand. Apart from the monetary cost of buying another package you then need to spend time and effort learning how to use it. No, that point will move, if the head rotates around C and the head is tilted around B axis. I believe that some additional work with kinematics module will solve this issue and EMC will calculate all the necessary compensating moves Theoretically you should be able to do it all with kinematics but it could be tricky to implement. You would have two options: 1) As you suggested, set B to the kerf angle then rotate C to be tangential to the cut path 2) Have A as tilt left/right and B as tilt front/back then use kinematics to operate both axes as you cut. The kinematics would have to offset X and Y as it tilts A and B. This would be a variation on the standard 5 axis kinematics. My apologies, i do not completely understand, what did You mean by this question :) If you are using scheme 1 above you need a joint on the nozzle that can handle rotation as the C axis rotates. A rotary joint then can handle waterjet pressures is likely to be very expensive. I suppose you could mount the nozzle assembly in a bearing so the nozzle itself does not rotate. Les -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
I would like to do it without any additional cost and in EMC so that i can use my current CAM application, so that is why i was asking, if someone has managed to implement preprocessor for EMC that does tangential control. I fully understand. Apart from the monetary cost of buying another package you then need to spend time and effort learning how to use it. Yes, You got the point very precisely. Plus i would like to mention, that my programm - Wrykrys - is made specifically for waterjet/plasma/laser cutting and has some very cool features; for example - cutting only piercing points, which is crucial for cutting brittle materials, easy switching the side of compensation (side of the line, on which the tool goes and the amount of tool (width of water jet kerf in this case) compensation) and few more, about which i am not sure that they are present in SheetCAM. SheetCAM seems to be first of all CAM for milling, which is adapted for waterjet/plasma/laser cutting - it seems to have limited options with lead-in/lead-out moves, which are very well-developed in my software. No, that point will move, if the head rotates around C and the head is tilted around B axis. I believe that some additional work with kinematics module will solve this issue and EMC will calculate all the necessary compensating moves Theoretically you should be able to do it all with kinematics but it could be tricky to implement. You would have two options: 1) As you suggested, set B to the kerf angle then rotate C to be tangential to the cut path 2) Have A as tilt left/right and B as tilt front/back then use kinematics to operate both axes as you cut. The kinematics would have to offset X and Y as it tilts A and B. This would be a variation on the standard 5 axis kinematics. I certainly would choose second option, because it would not rotate cutting head and thus does not require any kind of solution, how to deal with the rotating movement in high pressure tubing. cheapest swivel i have found cost 970 EUR, KMT swivels cost 1300 EUR. I am left only with bulky spirals of the tubing which also would cost me more than all the remaining parts of the project together, because inviting technicians, that can create them, would cost me at least 600-700 EUR plus cost of tube itself, which is ~40 EUR/m. driving myself to them would be cheaper, but still costly. there are 3 reasons, why i have not chosen the second option: 1) by the time i was starting this project, i had no idea, how the mechanical solution should be created - how it should be built. now i have understood, that i can simple turn this assembly itself around B axis so that C becomes A and i have, what i needed. 2) first option allow tilting angles close to 70-80 degrees, so all the potential of 5 axis waterjet cutting can be realised on the machine side, affordable CAM programm is the biggest problem, second option limits tilting angle to 20-25 degrees, but, if i give up all the spirals in high pressure tubing and stay with traditional tubing solution, i have 10-12 degrees of tilt available. fortunately, it is still completely sufficient for taper compensation 3) i do not understand, how can i make the second option work from g-code and CAM software side :) with first option i have 2 theoretical solutions - either preprocessor in EMC or postprocessor in SheetCAM or even my existing CAM programm (today i wrote them to ask, if that is possible, they did not say no, i have to provide more details). Is it possible to have G-code for B-C setup and have A-B setup on machine and have the custom kinematics module to connect them together? My apologies, i do not completely understand, what did You mean by this question :) If you are using scheme 1 above you need a joint on the nozzle that can handle rotation as the C axis rotates. A rotary joint then can handle waterjet pressures is likely to be very expensive. I suppose you could mount the nozzle assembly in a bearing so the nozzle itself does not rotate. I have already built cutting head assembly with B and C axes. total cost for materials - few small metal sheets, profiles and conical bearings - as well as milling and lathing shafts has been around 100 LVL, which is approximately 140 EUR or 210 USD. This is exclusively DIY project on mechanical part, because it goes together with switching from DOS-based controls to EMC :)) So i have started thinking that i would like to rebuild the assembly to a A-B setup, if only i can get a working solution for G-code generation and/or transformation for this setup to work. actually it would save me a lot of money. Actually i have one more question - can anyone share a sample g-code before and after inserting C rotation for tangential tool control? Viesturs -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: Interesting discussion but the economics of this discussion are escaping me I work with a manufacturer that runs a large waterjet system 1-2 shifts per day at least 5 days per week. Their biggest costs related to the waterjet are water and electricity. The amount of water they use and the sewage charges they pay to dispose of it are significant. Electicity costs are at least $1000 per month. ,,, I thought the water would be filtered and mostly reused. ... Interesting. ... So the water is single use only? It isn't difficult to pay $50,000 for a decent water jet pump I believe the waterjet system that they have (gantry, conveyor, pump, water handling system, and controls installed ) was about $250K when it was new 10 years ago. Waterjet swivel joints are expensive, but they are incidental to the cost of operating the machine. Sheetcam is very inexpensive compared to anything related to waterjet cutting. It does cost more than EMC2 but not that much. ;-) Dave [snip] -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Yes, it isn't practical to filter and treat the water so it can be run back through the pump.. the material being cut is somewhat acidic, so there is a chemical problem and a dust/dirt grit issue with the waste water. Some of the grit and dust is separated before the water is sent to the sewer. But that is all. Dave ,,, I thought the water would be filtered and mostly reused. ... Interesting. ... So the water is single use only? -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
2010/4/20 Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com: Interesting discussion but the economics of this discussion are escaping me I work with a manufacturer that runs a large waterjet system 1-2 shifts per day at least 5 days per week. Their biggest costs related to the waterjet are water and electricity. The amount of water they use and the sewage charges they pay to dispose of it are significant. Electicity costs are at least $1000 per month. It isn't difficult to pay $50,000 for a decent water jet pump I believe the waterjet system that they have (gantry, conveyor, pump, water handling system, and controls installed ) was about $250K when it was new 10 years ago. Waterjet swivel joints are expensive, but they are incidental to the cost of operating the machine. Sheetcam is very inexpensive compared to anything related to waterjet cutting. It does cost more than EMC2 but not that much. ;-) Dave Yes, i can only agree that cost of machine itself (i paid ~100.000 USD for it 1,5 years ago) makes all the previously mentioned cost positions look ridiculously small, but my business is doing so bad, that available cash flows are almost non-existent, so i am stuck with looking for creative solutions, not those that are provided by industrial manufacturers. That is why i have chosen EMC instead of new controlling system from MEFI (creator of previous DOS-based system) or any-one else. Another reason is that I have come to conclusion that building by myself is better from terms of maintenance and support. My machine was produced in Czech Republic. Both - hardware and software (controlling system). I have been trying to contact those companies with different questions on how to solve some problems - machine is not new and different issues sometimes come up. My experience - there is no such thing as customer service in that country. When i contacted manufacturer of servo drives and asked for specific settings, their guy promised to do it tomorrow. When i called a week later to ask for the reason of delay, it turned out, that my guy is on holiday and his colleague explained that my guy [quote] probably had more important things to do. Very similar is situation with PTV - manufacturer of the machine. There is no way to get some support from them, I have tried to contact them several times with questions about spare parts and how to do certain things in mechanics to improve accuracy. I have come to conclusion that some kind of retards are working there. So, returning to the essence of this discussion - how can i implement in EMC tangential tool control for tilting the head? Prefferably with A and B rotary axis :) Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
On 4/20/2010 4:46 PM, Viesturs La-cis wrote: 2010/4/20 Davee...@dc9.tzo.com: Interesting discussion but the economics of this discussion are escaping me I work with a manufacturer that runs a large waterjet system 1-2 shifts per day at least 5 days per week. Their biggest costs related to the waterjet are water and electricity. The amount of water they use and the sewage charges they pay to dispose of it are significant. Electicity costs are at least $1000 per month. It isn't difficult to pay $50,000 for a decent water jet pump I believe the waterjet system that they have (gantry, conveyor, pump, water handling system, and controls installed ) was about $250K when it was new 10 years ago. Waterjet swivel joints are expensive, but they are incidental to the cost of operating the machine. Sheetcam is very inexpensive compared to anything related to waterjet cutting. It does cost more than EMC2 but not that much. ;-) Dave Yes, i can only agree that cost of machine itself (i paid ~100.000 USD for it 1,5 years ago) makes all the previously mentioned cost positions look ridiculously small, but my business is doing so bad, that available cash flows are almost non-existent, so i am stuck with looking for creative solutions, not those that are provided by industrial manufacturers. That is why i have chosen EMC instead of new controlling system from MEFI (creator of previous DOS-based system) or any-one else. Another reason is that I have come to conclusion that building by myself is better from terms of maintenance and support. My machine was produced in Czech Republic. Both - hardware and software (controlling system). I have been trying to contact those companies with different questions on how to solve some problems - machine is not new and different issues sometimes come up. My experience - there is no such thing as customer service in that country. When i contacted manufacturer of servo drives and asked for specific settings, their guy promised to do it tomorrow. When i called a week later to ask for the reason of delay, it turned out, that my guy is on holiday and his colleague explained that my guy [quote] probably had more important things to do. Very similar is situation with PTV - manufacturer of the machine. There is no way to get some support from them, I have tried to contact them several times with questions about spare parts and how to do certain things in mechanics to improve accuracy. I have come to conclusion that some kind of retards are working there. So, returning to the essence of this discussion - how can i implement in EMC tangential tool control for tilting the head? Prefferably with A and B rotary axis :) Viesturs economics of this discussion are escaping me OK, now I understand. $100 for anything waterjet is very inexpensive, let alone a system. I'm sorry your business is not doing well. Business has been very slow for many people in the US also, so I can relate. EMC2 should work fine for what you are doing. Going back to your original question when you quoted Jon Elson... Jon was referring to a filter program. The term filter program in EMC2 jargon is a program that creates or processes G code. The wiki references a couple of examples: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl Look for: * Simple EMC G-Code Generators http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Simple_EMC_G-Code_Generators - Facing, Pockets, Drill Patterns Etc. * GWiz - A Gcode Wizard Framework http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?GWiz_-_A_Gcode_Wizard_Framework On that page. The simple G code generators output code based on a menu driven input, sometimes directly into the EMC2 Axis interface. GWiz is a fairly complex concept that was done by Ken Lerman to allow non programmers to create a G code creation filter program without programming. Pretty clever IMO. If you know Python (or are willing to learn it) these examples should give you a start on how to program a filter program to process X,Y,Z Gcode into XYZAB Gcode that you can use with a tilting head. This setup uses a filter program also that you might be able to use for example code ... http://objects.reprap.org/wiki/EMCRepStrap#GCode_Decoding Dave -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Tangential tool configuration
Hello! I found this in older archives (please, see below). I was wondering, if this has been implemented and there is some sample preprocessor that i could find? I find this very crucial as this option could save me several thousand usd for specific waterjet cam software as this function would allow very simply implement waterjet taper compensation and i believe that it would be crucial to anyone else, who would like to retrofit their older waterjet cutting equipment and upgrade to 5 axis machine. The way to use this tool: 1) with XYZBC setup of waterjet machine, i set proper B angle to tilt the cutting nozzle perpendicularly to cutting edge to compensate for the taper and 2) with this tool i would have C axis turn as needed to keep the tilting angle correct in respect to moving direction as the tilt direction has to be perpendicular to the moving direction at all times. So has there been any progress on this matter during last year? Thank You in advance! with best regards, Viesturs Date: 2009-01-28 17:15:59 GMT Mario. wrote: So I understand it correctly that a wheel-cutter mode is now in ideological development, right? That's some great news! After some discussion, it seems the consensus is that there is rather little development to be done. The C axis (for cutter angle) will just be another axis on the machine, so EMC, itself, needs no change. What does need to be done is create a filter program that takes in G-code with XY commands, figures out the cutter angle and adds in a C command word. For any G01 moves, the calculation is trivial. For instance : Input file, currently at X0 Y0 : G01 X1 Y1 Output file: G01 C45 X1 Y1 So, it sets the cutter angle first, then performs the linear move. For arc moves (G02, G03) it has to preset the cutter angle for the start of the move, then program the cutter angle to follow the changing angle of the cut move. Input file, currently X0 Y0 : G03 Y1 R0.5 Output file : G01 C0 G03 Y1 R0.5 C180 This is assuming C=0 is with the knife pointing toward +X, Positive C is counterclockwise, and that I got the arc direction right. Jon -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
