Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 7:50 PM Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

>
> We need specialized SBCs for industrial and CNC systems obviously. It
> would be nice to have a handful of well known brands to select from for
> DIY projects. They could be functionally the same but use different CPU.
> I would participate in related Kickstart assuming the design was good
> and supported for at least 5 years ;-)
>

I can argue that we have this already.  As for CPUs the embedded world
seem to be moving to only two kinds ARM-A and ARM-M. The "A" type is in
the Beagle Bone, Raspberry Pi, both Android and Apple cell phones and other
places where an operating system is required.  The "M" type have almost
taken over the embedded world.   Yes there are others but they are either
minor or legacy.

All of these "A" and "M" SBCs have pins, typically at 0.1 inch spacing and
the pins have standardized names and functions across all the boards.If
you look there are only about a half dozen pin type in common use and only
a dozen that a designer needs to know abut.  The pins types include Analog
in, PWM, digital out, Power, ground, USART, I2C. SPI,

So today we have mostly only a couple CPU families (that anyone would put
in a new design) and a dozen or two pin types and 100+ different word
shapes.

My opinion is that things have never been better,  We have all the cheap
and easy to use computing hardware we need.The problem is software.
Software is a much harder problem.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 2/23/19 7:29 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

On 2/20/2019 8:42 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:



-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 12:07 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for

comments

My mill is equivalent to a Grizzly G3606.  From the now defunct House of
Tools.  They handle the broken parts and assemble and make sure 
everything

is there before I ever saw it.  No real complaints but it's not a HAAS.

Of

course the price was nowhere near that either.

I know for sure that I'm going to have to either rebuild (redesign) 
the X
axis nut or just install ball screws (preferred).  The PC, the CNC 
control

software are such a small part of the whole thing.

The BeagleBone design is published and can be used in other layouts.
Nothing stops someone from producing a more S100 if you will (but 
smaller

cards) system using it as a backbone processor.  Although it's video
processing is pretty pitiful.  The Pi is not public.

But again, 1000 hours  (about 6 months work).  $100 to $150 per 
hour.  Say
with all the design work including metalwork etc. that you can create 
that
magic Linux CNC based box for $150,000.   The customer base will 
probably

only want to pay $500 at the most for it since you can duplicate what it
does with used PCs and some hardware.  The motors, couplers, power

supplies

etc. remain constant regardless of the install.   So if you want to make
back your investment and earn a living then $150,000 R / $500 per unit

is

300 units.

And even with $500 per unit the end user still has to modify his machine
which is where all the work and money is.   If the need was there it 
would

already be filled.    IMHO.

John

Selling 300 units at $500 each would only recover the $150K R if the
supplied hardware were free with no advertising/support required for the
sales. I suspect that needing to sell 3000 units is closer to reality.





The PC is not going away anytime soon.    I do a lot of industrial 


Some form of PC will stay around for time to come. However, industrial 
computer is a different beast for number of reasons. Tablets and 
Chromebooks are changing this the most in user landscape.


control work and more and more PCs are being installed in factories to 
allow access to the MES system, quality control/part tracking system 
(IBS QMS,etc) and provide employee log in/log out.   Act as cell 
controllers for machine cells.  They are everywhere.  Most of them are 
small fanless units with one or more Ethernet  ports.


We need specialized SBCs for industrial and CNC systems obviously. It 
would be nice to have a handful of well known brands to select from for 
DIY projects. They could be functionally the same but use different CPU. 
I would participate in related Kickstart assuming the design was good 
and supported for at least 5 years ;-)


The factories are using off the shelf desktop screens since they are 
dirt cheap.   Standard keyboards etc.  They break, they replace them. 


Dirt cheap are the key words here. Non-technical bean counters select 
the technology too often because they don't know better. I've seen it 
too many times in industrial and data center environments and small 
startups. Computer technology keeps revolving around simplistic PC 
architecture even in virtual systems these days. I see users requesting 
virtual systems with 4 coreCPUs, 8-16GB RAM, 300-500GB of virtual disk 
space just to run simple compiler jobs and such on a daily basis.


I've even seen standard desktop PCs used in steel mills out in the 
shop.  Its popular to mount the PC behind the screen.


The only reason why PC installation may slow in factories is increased 
use of robots which eliminates the employees who would interact with the 
PCs.


CNC machines are robots too. They use different language to run and 
interact with humans in some steps. CNC machines are a class of co-robots.




Remember when the parallel port was going away 10+ years ago, 
wellyou can still buy NEW PC motherboards with parallel ports.


Yes, and some printers come with Pport to plug in to those obsolete 
ports also. It's like bulky DC power connector designed for use by 
stupid smokers in cars decades ago.


Thanks to all for participating in DIY CNC builder dilemma. I learn so 
much from such discussions. Too bad we can't get together and solve CNC 
automation problems as a company selling an ultimate CNC product.


--
Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Dave Cole]

On 2/20/2019 8:42 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:



-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 12:07 AM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for

comments

My mill is equivalent to a Grizzly G3606.  From the now defunct House of
Tools.  They handle the broken parts and assemble and make sure everything
is there before I ever saw it.  No real complaints but it's not a HAAS.

Of

course the price was nowhere near that either.

I know for sure that I'm going to have to either rebuild (redesign) the X
axis nut or just install ball screws (preferred).  The PC, the CNC control
software are such a small part of the whole thing.

The BeagleBone design is published and can be used in other layouts.
Nothing stops someone from producing a more S100 if you will (but smaller
cards) system using it as a backbone processor.  Although it's video
processing is pretty pitiful.  The Pi is not public.

But again, 1000 hours  (about 6 months work).  $100 to $150 per hour.  Say
with all the design work including metalwork etc. that you can create that
magic Linux CNC based box for $150,000.   The customer base will probably
only want to pay $500 at the most for it since you can duplicate what it
does with used PCs and some hardware.  The motors, couplers, power

supplies

etc. remain constant regardless of the install.   So if you want to make
back your investment and earn a living then $150,000 R / $500 per unit

is

300 units.

And even with $500 per unit the end user still has to modify his machine
which is where all the work and money is.   If the need was there it would
already be filled.IMHO.

John

Selling 300 units at $500 each would only recover the $150K R if the
supplied hardware were free with no advertising/support required for the
sales. I suspect that needing to sell 3000 units is closer to reality.





The PC is not going away anytime soon.    I do a lot of industrial 
control work and more and more PCs are being installed in factories to 
allow access to the MES system, quality control/part tracking system 
(IBS QMS,etc) and provide employee log in/log out.   Act as cell 
controllers for machine cells.  They are everywhere.  Most of them are 
small fanless units with one or more Ethernet  ports.
The factories are using off the shelf desktop screens since they are 
dirt cheap.   Standard keyboards etc.  They break, they replace them.   
I've even seen standard desktop PCs used in steel mills out in the 
shop.  Its popular to mount the PC behind the screen.


The only reason why PC installation may slow in factories is increased 
use of robots which eliminates the employees who would interact with the 
PCs.


Remember when the parallel port was going away 10+ years ago, 
wellyou can still buy NEW PC motherboards with parallel ports.






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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 February 2019 04:34:14 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 20/02/2019 06:01, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > And I realize this is not the majority opinion.
>
> The main problem here is that to China the rest of the world IS a
> minority market. The cost of translation to even just English is
> something they don't need to bother with WHILE they had sufficient
> sales in country, and the likes of newker-cnc are producing turnkey
> systems rather than parts we can use. The major flaw with ALL of this
> is that this kit is designed to reduce the reliance on the very
> commodity that was cheap in China and the rest of the 'developing'
> world - people? And it's the same problem the world over? The
> automotive sector which is a majority market for this kit just like
> the steel and other raw material industries below have more capacity
> than customers able to pay the prices? The days of buying a new car
> every couple of years just like a new phone, laptop and even mill or
> lathe are a thing of the past and it's time to make all of these
> disposable turnkey products into something that can be 'upgraded'
> which needs to be addressed, so we can add the latest improvements to
> last years kit without having to ditch the whole lot. Mine and the
> wife's cars are 10 years old - and Korean - and still going strong -
> my son bought a UK built Range Rover which has been off the road for
> months while he tried to find a new engine because the old one had
> failed with a 'problem these engines just don't get'.
>
> Unless we can make money from this kit for many of us it IS just a
> hobby activity? So paying inflated prices for the core components has
> to be justified when one can buy turnkey packages at a tenth the price
> knowing one will probably spend another tenth improving things ...
> which is exactly what I did with the 3D printer. And the basic kit
> from china was a quarter of the price of the same kit being punted
> under the banner of UK MANUFACTURE when it is nothing of the sort! The
> likes of Amazon and eBay need to be made liable for the fraud that
> they hide from customers? But we need more openness from all of our
> suppliers so we can make kit last longer.

Thats good for a plus 10 right there Lester. And this 6040 I'm building 
up at the moment is a perfect example. Mechanically its pretty good, 
particularly the extremely low backlash. Electrically its a piece of 
shit. Using the cheapest smart driver yet, the TB6560, obviously  peak 
current adjustable but absolutely no docs, its preset, and its designed 
to be driven by mach3. "its preset", yeah, sure. plug in the 4th axis 
and the current is obviously too much as the motor is burn you hand hot 
in just about 10 minutes, and the 24 volt power supply that runs all 4 
motors is folded back to about 14 volts  Rather that putz with that, go 
get the 4 driver kit thats been running the failed HF mill for a decade, 
turn the A driver current down to around 2 amps because the motor looks 
that small. Works a treat and doesn't heat the A motor any worse than 
the others now. Might be able to turn it back up one step. Nothing 
stamped on these motors at all, nothing in the Engrish instructions but 
how to make mach run it, but they are being moved 10x faster than the HF 
mill ever moved in its decade of pushing it past 10 ipm and getting 
stalls. And I had to make dampers for it to get it past 4 ipm.

It has a 110 volt vfd, rated for a 1500watt water cooled motor, so 
obviously the single phase filter cap won't last much longer than the 
bearings in the motor, meaning both will have to be replaced with higher 
quality stuff inside of a 2 year time frame, by which time "they" intend 
to sell me a new one. There are terminals on that vfd to interface it to 
a spinx1 or similar control, one of the reasons I'm using the 5i25-7i76 
combo as I believe I can control it using its vfd interface. But in 
feeding it a raw pwm signal I found the pwm must swing a full 10 volts 
in order to get the full speed range. A 99% duty cycle 5 volt signal 
only gets around 5400 revs, or around 18% of full speed.

And I had it running backwards for several hours with zero ill effects in 
my poking around so I know I can run it backwards with the correct hal 
configuration.  All of which is present in the mesa 7i76 card once I get 
the 2nd one built up. The box I put it all in needs to be 1/4" deeper to 
fit the mesa card, but the  panels on the first one do bulge a bit when 
bolted in.  The 2nd one will have a bigger cnc4pc C1G version-4 card for 
the 2nd bob, which will crowd the 2 power supplies so thats todays 
project, make them fit inside the box. I suspect that will mean jacking 
up the cards another 3/4" inch or more to make room under the cards, all 
TBD yet. There is room to do that, and moving the db25 cutouts upwards 
is not a problem so its not a show-stopper. Making longer standoffs 
isn't a problem other than the raw materiel.

So I am 100% in agreement with 

Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Ken Strauss]

> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 12:07 AM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for
comments
>
> My mill is equivalent to a Grizzly G3606.  From the now defunct House of
> Tools.  They handle the broken parts and assemble and make sure everything
> is there before I ever saw it.  No real complaints but it's not a HAAS.
Of
> course the price was nowhere near that either.
>
> I know for sure that I'm going to have to either rebuild (redesign) the X
> axis nut or just install ball screws (preferred).  The PC, the CNC control
> software are such a small part of the whole thing.
>
> The BeagleBone design is published and can be used in other layouts.
> Nothing stops someone from producing a more S100 if you will (but smaller
> cards) system using it as a backbone processor.  Although it's video
> processing is pretty pitiful.  The Pi is not public.
>
> But again, 1000 hours  (about 6 months work).  $100 to $150 per hour.  Say
> with all the design work including metalwork etc. that you can create that
> magic Linux CNC based box for $150,000.   The customer base will probably
> only want to pay $500 at the most for it since you can duplicate what it
> does with used PCs and some hardware.  The motors, couplers, power
supplies
> etc. remain constant regardless of the install.   So if you want to make
> back your investment and earn a living then $150,000 R / $500 per unit
is
> 300 units.
>
> And even with $500 per unit the end user still has to modify his machine
> which is where all the work and money is.   If the need was there it would
> already be filled.IMHO.
>
> John

Selling 300 units at $500 each would only recover the $150K R if the
supplied hardware were free with no advertising/support required for the
sales. I suspect that needing to sell 3000 units is closer to reality.




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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Lester Caine]

On 20/02/2019 06:01, John Dammeyer wrote:

And I realize this is not the majority opinion.


The main problem here is that to China the rest of the world IS a 
minority market. The cost of translation to even just English is 
something they don't need to bother with WHILE they had sufficient sales 
in country, and the likes of newker-cnc are producing turnkey systems 
rather than parts we can use. The major flaw with ALL of this is that 
this kit is designed to reduce the reliance on the very commodity that 
was cheap in China and the rest of the 'developing' world - people? And 
it's the same problem the world over? The automotive sector which is a 
majority market for this kit just like the steel and other raw material 
industries below have more capacity than customers able to pay the 
prices? The days of buying a new car every couple of years just like a 
new phone, laptop and even mill or lathe are a thing of the past and 
it's time to make all of these disposable turnkey products into 
something that can be 'upgraded' which needs to be addressed, so we can 
add the latest improvements to last years kit without having to ditch 
the whole lot. Mine and the wife's cars are 10 years old - and Korean - 
and still going strong - my son bought a UK built Range Rover which has 
been off the road for months while he tried to find a new engine because 
the old one had failed with a 'problem these engines just don't get'.


Unless we can make money from this kit for many of us it IS just a hobby 
activity? So paying inflated prices for the core components has to be 
justified when one can buy turnkey packages at a tenth the price knowing 
one will probably spend another tenth improving things ... which is 
exactly what I did with the 3D printer. And the basic kit from china was 
a quarter of the price of the same kit being punted under the banner of 
UK MANUFACTURE when it is nothing of the sort! The likes of Amazon and 
eBay need to be made liable for the fraud that they hide from customers? 
But we need more openness from all of our suppliers so we can make kit 
last longer.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

Hi guys,

I think the other thing that came up was the changing processor environment.
The Beagles have been around for a few years now.  I've just received the
second edition of Derek Molloy's book.  Much better than the first.  But if
I was going to complain about the BBB it would be the Linux moving target
more than the hardware.Hardware does tend to be more stable.  

I used a prototype development board to develop software for a Motorola
9S12DP512 that is like the original 8 bit MC6809 family but expanded into
the pseudo MC6812.
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/M9S12-Eval2.jpg
One of these eval boards was mounted in a metal box and ran for a year in an
outdoor heated cabinet.  The processor has 5 CAN bus channels, I wired in a
USB to parallel port interface.  The design with the proto board was started
at Christmas 2008.  Installed end of February 2009.  At the same time I also
had to design the lamps that the board talked to and the PC software that
talked to the M9S12.
The project was:
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/YVR-ORings.jpg

In the fall, because the proto-boards were no longer available I whipped out
custom module in less than a month.  With 6 relay drivers, 6 dry contact
switch sensing and added an RS485 port.  There's also an internal expansion
connector which eventually allowed me to add a Real Time clock, MicroSD card
reader and Ethernet Module.
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/Assembled9S12-1.JPG

Two of those were installed at the end of OCT2009 and ran until the end of
April 2010.
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/Barge1a.jpg

That was 10 years ago.  The processors, even with the sale of Motorola, are
still available.  For how long I don't know.  The IP was bought by my new
customer and I've been making these modules and writing software for them
ever since.  32K RAM, 512K flash memory in a 64K paged memory map.   At some
point we may get an End Of Life email.  Then the decision is only really for
how many extra processors to order.  500? 1000?  The development environment
only ran on Windows and I'm not even sure it will run on WIN-10.  It hasn't
been changed or upgraded for 10 years either.

Or maybe it's time to look at the ARM family.  I believe ST makes a 4 or 5
CAN port ARM processor.   It's whether or not there is single step debugging
hardware available.  The current 9S12 is programmed via the USB port with
encrypted files.  So that would have to be developed for the ST family of
hex files.  The modules on the CAN bus (CANopen) are also programmed with
encrypted files.  

Some of the 9S12 software is closely coupled to the paging and 8/16 bit
architecture.  Changing isn't just a recompile.  

And to bring this back to LinuxCNC and ARM or other technology.  The
software environment has to stabilize.  A moving target, be it the OS, the
IDE, the compiler, hardware etc. doesn't make for stability if the
developers spend more time updating just to stay current.  

I'm still using a DELTA 1939 band saw.  It cuts wood.  Gets the occasional
replacement blade.  Tires.  Yes it's a simple tool compared to a PC but it
does the job.  Until we look at the CNC control of the yet again simple
milling machines and lathes we won't see stability.

And I realize this is not the majority opinion.

John



> I am not against modern CPU architecture. It's the sandwich design that
> makes no sense to me. And lack of simple connection with easy
> interchangeable interfaces for DIO and stepper motors drivers. Capes,
> hats, and underware are not professional solutions. It's toys on top of
> toys for school projects. Might as well put that in Lego plastics.
> 
> If Beaglebone came with a decent PCB design so that companies could make
> professional interfaces for it I would be all over that architecture. I
> don't see it anywhere. Trouble is that modern designers don't bother to
> see what people created with much more limited resources in the 70's and
> 80's. S-100 bus would be better than a "sandwich with header connectors".
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

My mill is equivalent to a Grizzly G3606.  From the now defunct House of
Tools.  They handle the broken parts and assemble and make sure everything
is there before I ever saw it.  No real complaints but it's not a HAAS.  Of
course the price was nowhere near that either.  

I know for sure that I'm going to have to either rebuild (redesign) the X
axis nut or just install ball screws (preferred).  The PC, the CNC control
software are such a small part of the whole thing.

The BeagleBone design is published and can be used in other layouts.
Nothing stops someone from producing a more S100 if you will (but smaller
cards) system using it as a backbone processor.  Although it's video
processing is pretty pitiful.  The Pi is not public.

But again, 1000 hours  (about 6 months work).  $100 to $150 per hour.  Say
with all the design work including metalwork etc. that you can create that
magic Linux CNC based box for $150,000.   The customer base will probably
only want to pay $500 at the most for it since you can duplicate what it
does with used PCs and some hardware.  The motors, couplers, power supplies
etc. remain constant regardless of the install.   So if you want to make
back your investment and earn a living then $150,000 R / $500 per unit is
300 units.

And even with $500 per unit the end user still has to modify his machine
which is where all the work and money is.   If the need was there it would
already be filled.IMHO.

John




> 
> My Grizzly machine was delivered upside down, broken parts inside,
> bearing for lead screw seized first hour of use resulting in broken cast
> iron gears. When you look at steel and finish quality you see that's
> worth less than what you paid for.
> 
> --
> Rafael
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 2/19/19 5:28 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I did find the actual supplier web site.
http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?l=3

Having some trouble downloading the English manual but these are the units
sold through Alibaba.


There you go, classic problem with made in china.


I'm not in any way saying these are better than LinuxCNC on a PC or
MachineKit on a Beaglebone.  They do claim to be using ARMs.  The point is


I am not against modern CPU architecture. It's the sandwich design that 
makes no sense to me. And lack of simple connection with easy 
interchangeable interfaces for DIO and stepper motors drivers. Capes, 
hats, and underware are not professional solutions. It's toys on top of 
toys for school projects. Might as well put that in Lego plastics.


If Beaglebone came with a decent PCB design so that companies could make 
professional interfaces for it I would be all over that architecture. I 
don't see it anywhere. Trouble is that modern designers don't bother to 
see what people created with much more limited resources in the 70's and 
80's. S-100 bus would be better than a "sandwich with header connectors".



for the money they are asking it's just another example of a complete
package, ready to go, that probably does some level of machining well enough
to make parts.  And fundamentally it's all about making parts as cheaply as
possible.


You get complete packages here in the US also. The cost is not adjusted 
to DIY and experimenters. Kickstart with LinuxCNC based on open 
architecture would be good start ;-)




Unless I win a lottery I can't see buying one just to play with.  And I
already have my $25 PCs I bought to run LinuxCNC or MACH3.  But by the time


Lottery would make it possible to buy good US made product with manual 
you can read and mobile phone to make a call to person that understands 
what your problem is.



all that stuff is assembled and mounted the costs really do exceed the price
of the far east units.  Just like anyone building a Knee Mill in North
America wouldn't be able to compete with the same size units made in the far


Industrial revolution started mostly in USA so there is no reason it 
could not be done again. Just depends on how hungry people are.



east.  That's why the Grizzly, Tormach etc mills are all from the far east.

John


My Grizzly machine was delivered upside down, broken parts inside, 
bearing for lead screw seized first hour of use resulting in broken cast 
iron gears. When you look at steel and finish quality you see that's 
worth less than what you paid for.


--
Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

I did find the actual supplier web site.
http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?l=3

Having some trouble downloading the English manual but these are the units
sold through Alibaba.  

I'm not in any way saying these are better than LinuxCNC on a PC or
MachineKit on a Beaglebone.  They do claim to be using ARMs.  The point is
for the money they are asking it's just another example of a complete
package, ready to go, that probably does some level of machining well enough
to make parts.  And fundamentally it's all about making parts as cheaply as
possible.  

Unless I win a lottery I can't see buying one just to play with.  And I
already have my $25 PCs I bought to run LinuxCNC or MACH3.  But by the time
all that stuff is assembled and mounted the costs really do exceed the price
of the far east units.  Just like anyone building a Knee Mill in North
America wouldn't be able to compete with the same size units made in the far
east.  That's why the Grizzly, Tormach etc mills are all from the far east.

John 



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Lester Caine]

On 19/02/2019 17:30, John Dammeyer wrote:

Lester,
I would never buy the far east solution myself.  My original point was that
building a dedicated box that does everything and doesn't use, as the OP
remarked, use old PC technology, isn't really an option when the price of
those systems is so low.

I still think the BBB with Replicape is a good choice even if I'm not using
mine yet.


I've got the BBB plugged into a CRAMPS board with MachineKit installed, 
but still need to work out if I'm configuring it for the 3D printer or a 
Lathe ;) The 'far east' solution for the printer does most of the job 
but falls short the second one needs to tweak something, although I DO 
now have the config file for it and that does allow some changes to be 
made. I THINK my point was that while the far east stuff is obviously 
based on other open source code it is only the likes of LinuxCNC that 
actually allows a flexible path forward. The far east boxes are 
basically what you see is all you get? And then they don't even document 
just what they are selling?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

Lester,
I would never buy the far east solution myself.  My original point was that
building a dedicated box that does everything and doesn't use, as the OP
remarked, use old PC technology, isn't really an option when the price of
those systems is so low.

I still think the BBB with Replicape is a good choice even if I'm not using
mine yet.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]
> Sent: February-19-19 1:20 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for
> comments
> 
> On 18/02/2019 22:07, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
> > <https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Low-cost-New-Product-3Axis-
> 4Axis_60343603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5
> p>
> 
> Just testing ... The problem I have with long links is that once
> thunderbird sees a quote it adds it's own '>' at the start and other
> clients do as well, so <> wrapper is simply a stupid choice.
> 
> Re the actual controller ... just what IS the capability of the unit.
> How does one connect to it and does it really come with an open end
> multicore cable for the pendent? On one hand these do look attractive,
> but much of the 'magic' in gcode is the facilities beyond the simple
> motion stuff and some indication on what it does support would help? The
> pictures at the top show two different products anyway.
> 
> The brick wall I'm currently hitting with my 3D printer is that the
> supplied controller does not support table levelling and hard wires the
> two z axis motors to one driver. Being able to play with levelling left
> to right other than yanking one leadscrew manually would be nice and I
> think the MachineKit based controller will do that AND allow setting up
> profiling the surface afterwards. Something that a 'packaged' solution
> from China has no provision for unless you replace the whole machine ...
> 
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 19 February 2019 04:20:28 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 18/02/2019 22:07, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
> >  >Axis_60343603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5p>
>
> Just testing ... The problem I have with long links is that once
> thunderbird sees a quote it adds it's own '>' at the start and other
> clients do as well, so <> wrapper is simply a stupid choice.
>
> Re the actual controller ... just what IS the capability of the unit.
> How does one connect to it and does it really come with an open end
> multicore cable for the pendent? On one hand these do look attractive,
> but much of the 'magic' in gcode is the facilities beyond the simple
> motion stuff and some indication on what it does support would help?
> The pictures at the top show two different products anyway.
>
> The brick wall I'm currently hitting with my 3D printer is that the
> supplied controller does not support table levelling and hard wires
> the two z axis motors to one driver. Being able to play with levelling
> left to right other than yanking one leadscrew manually would be nice
> and I think the MachineKit based controller will do that AND allow
> setting up profiling the surface afterwards. Something that a
> 'packaged' solution from China has no provision for unless you replace
> the whole machine ...

This 6040 has no bed leveling facilities. 3 small nema 23 motors but 
capable of over 100 ipm rapids once given decent drivers. As shipped, it 
was set to cook the A motor as its the smallest length of the lot. Also 
very tight screws, backlash under a thou. Level to bed?, I haven't 
checked yet, and the bed is extruded stuff. I'll check that when the 
renishaw clone gets here. Thats something lcnc can attempt to correct 
with comp files, I'm doing it on the Sheldon to comp for bed wear. No 
reason it can't be done, but take any twist out with its adjustable feet 
first. I may not be impressed with it electrically, but mechanically it 
seems plenty solid enough for 3d carving alu. In fact, I have a 1' x 2' 
sheet of 1/2" alu, some of which will be used for a new apron on the 
Sheldon as I made that one out of scrap from an Ampex VR-1200 deck, 
filling holes etc, and I need to move the Z nut to the right as much as 
theres room to move it, as I'm crushing the left Z bellows when Z is at 
the backing plate faces, which in turn is lifting the carriage a thou or 
so up the v-way. In retrospect, I should have ordered a 50mm longer 
1500mm Z screw, and moved its anchoring point to a built up on the left 
face of the headstock casting. But whats done is done, and its turning 
within a thou over the range it can hold between centers and grind now. 
Plenty good enough for the girls I go with. :)

As for levelling the bed on this 6040, installing a full sized spoil 
board and shaving it flat is probably the best that could be done. Then 
how do you clamp stuff without access to the T slots?

Doubtfull I'd ever waste that much plywood in one whack though. Shaving 
the bed itself flat would be a tool killer with all that anodizing to 
remove. My budget certainly doesn't include that.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Lester Caine]

On 18/02/2019 22:07, John Dammeyer wrote:

Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.



Just testing ... The problem I have with long links is that once 
thunderbird sees a quote it adds it's own '>' at the start and other 
clients do as well, so <> wrapper is simply a stupid choice.


Re the actual controller ... just what IS the capability of the unit. 
How does one connect to it and does it really come with an open end 
multicore cable for the pendent? On one hand these do look attractive, 
but much of the 'magic' in gcode is the facilities beyond the simple 
motion stuff and some indication on what it does support would help? The 
pictures at the top show two different products anyway.


The brick wall I'm currently hitting with my 3D printer is that the 
supplied controller does not support table levelling and hard wires the 
two z axis motors to one driver. Being able to play with levelling left 
to right other than yanking one leadscrew manually would be nice and I 
think the MachineKit based controller will do that AND allow setting up 
profiling the surface afterwards. Something that a 'packaged' solution 
from China has no provision for unless you replace the whole machine ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 February 2019 17:07:14 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Let's try this then.
>
> Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
> is_603 43603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5p>
>
> John Dammeyer
>
>
Somewhere in the path is a line-wrapper thats ignoreing the <> 
convention. Normally the <> around a link protects it from such 
destruction. IOW it still isn't working.

The reason I'm curious is that I'm in the middle of making a 6040 work 
with LinuxCNC.  And its being difficult regarding the vfd. Mach only 
turns it on and off, apparently from wide open.. That wasn't the first 
problem though, it had only a 24 volt motor psu, which when the 4th axis 
was plugged in, folded back to about 14 volts.  So its now being moved 
by the 28 volt rig I took off the broken HF mill. So I'm in the process 
of building a 2nd interface similar to the one I put on the g0704, which 
has a 5i25, driving a 7i76 so I now have enough I/O to actually run the 
g0704.

And before I can run the spindle on the 6040, I need the spindle hardware 
in the 7i76. Chicken v egg. I did manage to get a usable back panel for 
all the I/0 connectors carved for the g0704 version, but even with the 
spindle down below 5 grand, I had to stop and clean the melted alu out 
of the tool 4 times. And burnt my fingers on the panel despite its 
swimming in cutting oil. Smoking cutting oil.

So I've got misting coolant stuff on order before I try to run another 
duplicate panel for the 6040 but with bigger connectors.

Rounding up enough other stuff to put coolant/mist under control, home 
switches & some other "gingerbread-ish" stuff on it. I'd like to figure 
out how to make an encoder work, but at 24k revs wide open, that will 
take a relatively course encoder. Or a d/a put to work in the 7i76 if I 
can figure out where to hijack the rpms it displays on the vfd panel and 
pipe it back to LCNC. That might take some rs485 monkey business. The 
book mentions it, but the rj45 socket pattern on its pcb is empty.

The software book on this vfd, a 120 volt model, in Chinese, translated 
well in google translate, up to about the 40th page, but there's nearly 
70 pages, and it was just getting good when google decided that's all 
you get for free. :(

FWIW, I tend to agree with 99% of your rant. Seems like we should have a 
stretch based x86 installer by now.

Take care, John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Bruce Layne]

I'm glad there are fully integrated CNC control packages for those who
want to go that route, but I greatly prefer LinuxCNC for two major reasons.

1)  I control the entire design, making the design choices that make
sense for me on each machine.  I generally prefer to spend a few more
dollars on high quality PC components that will be reliable - a solid
power supple, name brand motherboard, solid state drive, etc.  I usually
prefer inexpensive motion control components, often stepper motor and
driver packages from Chinese manufacturers.  They're a great value and
they've been reliable.  I usually buy a set with one more axis than I
need so I have a spare motor and driver.  (Pro Tip:  It's worth buying
high quality shaft couplings and good bearings for the motion control
components.)  I'll usually get the largest LCD I can fit on the machine
and a Logitech wireless keyboard and touchpad that doubles as a pendant
when jogging and zeroing the axes.  No vendor can offer the exact
hardware I want on each machine.  There are too many variables and every
pre-configured package will have compromises, and they're usually fairly
severe.

2)  I built the entire system so it's much easier for me to repair.  A
heavily integrated CNC control system, particularly if the computer and
the motion control are on the same board, is both more likely to be
damaged and less likely to be repaired.  Repair is often by
replacement.  A comparable problem on my system might only require
swapping a stepper driver (and I have a spare already on hand).  For the
same reason, LinuxCNC is great for replacing antiquated high dollar CNC
controls on commercial equipment.  Toss the 1990s Fanuc controls,
replace them with LinuxCNC for a very small amount of money, and breathe
new life into an old machine where the controls were dead but the iron
still has a lot of life left in it.



On 2/18/19 5:39 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> I still had to edit the text into one line 
> However if you google this: " ? alibaba Low-cost-New-Product-3Axis-> 4Axis "
> it will bring up the link.
>
> Point is that for $1500 you get a CNC controller ready to go.
>
> For $800 Alibaba lists "Cheap 3 axis CNC milling center CNC controller"  The
> drawing shows the outputs going to 3 drives and motors.
>
> But for $50 for a used dual core PC and either parallel port and BoB or and
> enhanced control card from Mesa and the rest is the same.  3 drives and
> motors.
>
> I don't believe that it's currently, in today's market, to compete with a
> far east by making a custom board. 
>
> John
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
>> Sent: February-18-19 2:07 PM
>> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for
>> comments
>>
>> Let's try this then.
>>
>> Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
>> <https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Low-cost-New-Product-3Axis-
>> 4Axis_60343603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5
>> p>
>>
>>
>> John Dammeyer
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> ___
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>




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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

I still had to edit the text into one line 
However if you google this: " ? alibaba Low-cost-New-Product-3Axis-> 4Axis "
it will bring up the link.

Point is that for $1500 you get a CNC controller ready to go.

For $800 Alibaba lists "Cheap 3 axis CNC milling center CNC controller"  The
drawing shows the outputs going to 3 drives and motors.

But for $50 for a used dual core PC and either parallel port and BoB or and
enhanced control card from Mesa and the rest is the same.  3 drives and
motors.

I don't believe that it's currently, in today's market, to compete with a
far east by making a custom board. 

John


> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: February-18-19 2:07 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for
> comments
> 
> Let's try this then.
> 
> Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
> <https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Low-cost-New-Product-3Axis-
> 4Axis_60343603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5
> p>
> 
> 
> John Dammeyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

Let's try this then.

Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.


John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 February 2019 14:11:38 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > However, I started to wonder last year what's the future of
> > LinuxCNC? What concerns me most is the computing part mainly based
> > on silly old PC architecture from the 80's. Using PCs for that
> > purpose made sense in the early 1990s to about 2010 but now it's
> > time to move on IMO. I don't see much usable discussions on this
> > mailing list, sorry guys.
>
> I'm still in the middle of my CNC conversion.  I'm far enough along
> that the motors are mounted and now I'm working on the power supply
> cabinet. Control has aleready been done with MachineKit on a BBB.
> Here's a video of two axis control published last year in May. I'm not
>  much further along other than the third axis(X)  now has a motor
> mount and I've created motion on all three axis using a surplus PC on
> which I've booted both MACH3 and LinuxCNC.  I have a new dual parallel
> port BoB for it. The interface board I was using for the Beagle
> expected NO limit switches and I'm uncomfortable with that concept for
> machine control.  Anyway here's a link to the BBB with MachineKit
> short video.
> https://youtu.be/9GF709ZfLRQ
>
> This weekend I'm working on the power supply cabinet and a place to
> mount the PC screen, keyboard and mouse.  There's a pull out drawer
> for a surplus PC or I suppose a BeagleBone.  Haven't decided
> ultimately what I will use. During the last year I also acquired a
> harmonic drive and STMBL servo controller but I still need to cast the
> mount which means I still need to finish the 15 lb crucible all for a
> fourth axis. There's no end to projects to make the project.
>
> I won't get into the Linux verses Windows  religious discussion.  I
> use windows because my job requires I use development tools that
> aren't available on Linux.  So there's no discussion really.
>
> Dedicated hardware is an interesting question.   I designed and built
> an controller for old lathes that were missing gears.  Called an
> Electronic Lead Screw (E-Leadscrew group on Yahoo) it uses a small
> PIC18F series processor, has 2 line LCD display, MPG knob and 35 key
> buttons.  And before the stepper driver devices  became really
> expensive also a 3A 48V micro-stepper driver for the Z axis
> (carriage).  Single pulse per revolution sensing means that it needs a
> very stable spindle speed.  The user interface is less CNC like and
> more manual lathe like.  I use it on my 1942 South Bend with only
> single axis control and can cut both metric and imperial threads and
> safely bore a hole to depth without hovering over the half nut.
>
> I mention the ELS only because it's a dedicated machine controller and
> there have been requests to improve it.  And there's the problem.  I
> could use a BeagleBone with Machine Kit and build a new interface.  I
> could use a PIC32 mounted on a small carrier board to plug in and
> replace the PIC18F 40 pin DIP processor.  I even started down that
> road with modifications to my Gingery home built lathe.  I've 3D
> printed mounts for 3 sensors and a slotted tooth sensor for the Beagle
> to better capture spindle speed and position.  But like the CNC
> conversion of my mill these projects have all been stalled due to lack
> of time.
>
> The problem, and sorry  to take so long to describing this, is that
> the market has pretty well dried up.  Those who have CNC on their
> mills are using it.   Those who don't may dream of it and some do
> upgrade but very few now.   If someone has a working conversion in
> their shop running MAHC3 on a WIN-XP single core processor why change
> just for the sake of change. Especially if their desire it to make
> parts, not play with PCs.   There are probably thousands if not 10s of
> thousands using MACH3 (not the newer MACH4) for their CNC routers in
> their home shop.
>
> Similarly if someone is running LInuxCNC on working hardware, why
> change. Why upgrade?  To what end?
>
> Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.



unforch, John, you did not surround this link with a pair of<> which 
would have preserved its validity even if it had been 2k chars long, but 
alibaba, rather than leaving half of it displayed so we can manually 
copy/paste the rest of it, has to be cute and replace it all with their 
custom 404 message. And even after I fixed it, it still goes to a google 
listing. And none of them goto that particular machine.

> As I understand it there are lots of systems like this out there.  I
> suspect, that like my ELS, the _time_investment_ to make a LinuxCNC
> something on dedicated hardware only slightly better just isn't
> available anymore.  If I spent another 1000 hours redeveloping my ELS
> with a 32 bit custom processor or ported BBB MachineKit to make a
> better ELS the question is how many more would I sell to recover the
> 

Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

> However, I started to wonder last year what's the future of LinuxCNC?
> What concerns me most is the computing part mainly based on silly old PC
> architecture from the 80's. Using PCs for that purpose made sense in the
> early 1990s to about 2010 but now it's time to move on IMO. I don't see
> much usable discussions on this mailing list, sorry guys.

I'm still in the middle of my CNC conversion.  I'm far enough along that the
motors are mounted and now I'm working on the power supply cabinet. Control
has aleready been done with MachineKit on a BBB.
Here's a video of two axis control published last year in May. I'm not  much
further along other than the third axis(X)  now has a motor mount and I've
created motion on all three axis using a surplus PC on which I've booted
both MACH3 and LinuxCNC.  I have a new dual parallel port BoB for it. The
interface board I was using for the Beagle expected NO limit switches and
I'm uncomfortable with that concept for machine control.  Anyway here's a
link to the BBB with MachineKit short video.
https://youtu.be/9GF709ZfLRQ

This weekend I'm working on the power supply cabinet and a place to mount
the PC screen, keyboard and mouse.  There's a pull out drawer for a surplus
PC or I suppose a BeagleBone.  Haven't decided ultimately what I will use.
During the last year I also acquired a harmonic drive and STMBL servo
controller but I still need to cast the mount which means I still need to
finish the 15 lb crucible all for a fourth axis. There's no end to projects
to make the project.
  
I won't get into the Linux verses Windows  religious discussion.  I use
windows because my job requires I use development tools that aren't
available on Linux.  So there's no discussion really.  

Dedicated hardware is an interesting question.   I designed and built an
controller for old lathes that were missing gears.  Called an Electronic
Lead Screw (E-Leadscrew group on Yahoo) it uses a small PIC18F series
processor, has 2 line LCD display, MPG knob and 35 key buttons.  And before
the stepper driver devices  became really expensive also a 3A 48V
micro-stepper driver for the Z axis (carriage).  Single pulse per revolution
sensing means that it needs a very stable spindle speed.  The user interface
is less CNC like and more manual lathe like.  I use it on my 1942 South Bend
with only single axis control and can cut both metric and imperial threads
and safely bore a hole to depth without hovering over the half nut.

I mention the ELS only because it's a dedicated machine controller and there
have been requests to improve it.  And there's the problem.  I could use a
BeagleBone with Machine Kit and build a new interface.  I could use a PIC32
mounted on a small carrier board to plug in and replace the PIC18F 40 pin
DIP processor.  I even started down that road with modifications to my
Gingery home built lathe.  I've 3D printed mounts for 3 sensors and a
slotted tooth sensor for the Beagle to better capture spindle speed and
position.  But like the CNC conversion of my mill these projects have all
been stalled due to lack of time.

The problem, and sorry  to take so long to describing this, is that the
market has pretty well dried up.  Those who have CNC on their mills are
using it.   Those who don't may dream of it and some do upgrade but very few
now.   If someone has a working conversion in their shop running MAHC3 on a
WIN-XP single core processor why change just for the sake of change.
Especially if their desire it to make parts, not play with PCs.   There are
probably thousands if not 10s of thousands using MACH3 (not the newer MACH4)
for their CNC routers in their home shop.

Similarly if someone is running LInuxCNC on working hardware, why change.
Why upgrade?  To what end?  

Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Low-cost-New-Product-3Axis-4Axis_6034
3603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5p

As I understand it there are lots of systems like this out there.  I
suspect, that like my ELS, the _time_investment_ to make a LinuxCNC
something on dedicated hardware only slightly better just isn't available
anymore.  If I spent another 1000 hours redeveloping my ELS with a 32 bit
custom processor or ported BBB MachineKit to make a better ELS the question
is how many more would I sell to recover the say 1000hr * $100 per hour
consulting R costs?

I think the support on this group is awesome.  I suspect though that none of
the members have the time nor interest in re-inventing a wheel that is
already turning.   What does one do with that 4 hours of free time.  Take
their CNC machine apart to try something new?  Or just go out and make
something with what they have and what is familiar?

John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Jon Elson]

On 02/18/2019 10:58 AM, Rafael Skodlar wrote:



However, I started to wonder last year what's the future 
of LinuxCNC?
What concerns me most is the computing part mainly based 
on silly old PC architecture from the 80's. Using PCs for 
that purpose made sense in the early 1990s to about 2010 
but now it's time to move on IMO. I don't see much usable 
discussions on this mailing list, sorry guys.


I believe LinuxCNC will run on several ARM processors, such 
as Rasberry Pi and Beagle Bone.
Also, the Machinekit fork of LinuxCNC definitely runs on the 
Beagle Bone.


Also, Centroid is selling the Acorn CNC control, which 
appears suspiciously to be a LinuxCNC clone running under 
cover with another GUI.


Jon


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