Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/25/2012 03:53 PM, s...@highlab.com wrote: I am not a board member or anything official, I'm just some guy who hacks on linuxcnc sometimes. I speak for myself. I've been following this thread since the start, and there is a disconnect between what people are asking for and how i think this project works. People are saying thing like: What's the road map of features for future releases? What features should/shouldn't I work on? Who holds the Treasurer position? How do you assign tasks to developers? These kinds of questions make no sense in my mental model of the project. This is not a company and I am not an employee, so nobody gets to tell me what to do. I'm a volunteer and I do this because I like our community, and machining, and programming. I'm doing this for fun, in my spare time that I could be doing other fun things of my own choosing. If someone wants to make a roadmap, or a list of features they want, or a 5 year plan of what they think everyone should work on, that's fine by me - but it doesnt really affect me, and it doesnt change what I'll do tonight after i tuck my kids into bed. I have a list of things *I* want to do to the linuxcnc project, but I'd never dream of telling anyone to work on them. It's not my place to tell folks what to do. I do not publicise my todo list because I'm afraid that doing so might make people impatient for the tasks to be finished, and the pressure of that public expectation would diminish my enjoyment of doing the work. I have enough schedule and pressure in my day job and other parts of my life, I dont need any more! That's not what I'm here for! I have never read the Board of Directors Terms of Service, and until people in this thread started talking about it I didnt realize we had one. I will not go read it now, because I don't care. To me, this project works well, and legalese bores me. I run my part of our infrastructure on my dime because I happen to have the equipment and skills and interest to do it, and i think it makes our shared project better. I have no interest in trying to untangle the expense of it from the rest of my household expenses and requesting a reimbursement from a project treasurer. I dont know if we even *have* a treasurer, and if we do i dont want to spend my open-source hacking hour talking about bills. I'd rather just hack. That's where I'm coming from. Seb, Your feelings are understandable. I for one appreciate all the hard work and effort you've put into this over the years, and you've helped me on numerous occasions get over certain bumps in the road that I was struggling with. Thank you for that. I don't take any of the folks that have worked on this little corner of the world for granted. I mentioned the Treasurer idea mainly as having a way to maintain the costs of our web presence. You mentioned you maintain your part of the infrastructure on your dime, and I think Chris also mentioned that the costs for our web presence was coming out of his pocket. This has worked and worked well for us so far. But, sometimes life happens. God forbid that something might happen to somebody who is taking care of this, and leaves that person unable to keep that service going. Do we as a community have a mechanism in place to pick up the job that's currently being maintained that way? I think our community has grown to the point where a lot of folks are starting to depend on LinuxCNC being there. We've got integrators out there who are making a living off bringing LinuxCNC to the industrial world, and folks like me who use LinuxCNC as part of our business. Without all the hard work and dedication from you guys as developers and leaders in the project, we wouldn't be here today. But as we grow, we need to look at how we are managing this. Do we need to have mechanisms in place in case something happens that could shut down the project? Do we need to more clearly delineate the Board's responsibilities, both the the project itself and to the community that both uses and supports the project? Do we need to have mechanisms in place to manage the resources we use? Lotsa questions, lots of things to think about. The threat of the lawsuit should open our eyes to the fact that we are getting big enough to be noticed out there in the world, and we need to have some kind of structure that protects our interests, and keeps the growth and enthusiasm in making LinuxCNC the software we as a community want it to be. Mark -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/26/2012 06:25 AM, andy pugh wrote: It is worth bearing in mind, thought, that no matter what else happens, your installation of LinuxCNC will continue to work, and as long as you keep a copy of the source there is no reason that it can't continue to do so indefinitely. New features and support for new hardware might stall, but the complete non-reliance on a supporting company/organisation is one of the strengths of open source. That's true. But, like anything else in the world, we progress. New features, bug fixes, operating systems that become obsolete and no longer supported and unavailable are just some of the things that can and do happen over time. Eventually you get to a point where what you have doesn't work anymore. Complete non-reliance on an organization can also be a big weakness of open source. You do have to have some kind of organization in place - determining when new releases come out, managing the resources to be able to put out a new release, and coordinating new releases, bug fixes, and features. Anarchy isn't normally a strength. ;-) Mark -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
Hi Seb, I can appreciate your comments. I think I brought up the money thing first. I never thought that anything as formalized as a treasurer was required. My feeling... If you put up a server on your own dime and you keep the build bot alive and I use it, and I see a donate link on the website , I will probably toss you a couple of bucks. When your Paypal account gets sufficiently full you can turn off the link... or not. I really don't care either way. Its up to you what you do with the $.I appreciate you keeping things running. That is what I was thinking of. No untangling required. Dave On 1/25/2012 3:53 PM, s...@highlab.com wrote: I am not a board member or anything official, I'm just some guy who hacks on linuxcnc sometimes. I speak for myself. I've been following this thread since the start, and there is a disconnect between what people are asking for and how i think this project works. People are saying thing like: What's the road map of features for future releases? What features should/shouldn't I work on? Who holds the Treasurer position? How do you assign tasks to developers? These kinds of questions make no sense in my mental model of the project. This is not a company and I am not an employee, so nobody gets to tell me what to do. I'm a volunteer and I do this because I like our community, and machining, and programming. I'm doing this for fun, in my spare time that I could be doing other fun things of my own choosing. If someone wants to make a roadmap, or a list of features they want, or a 5 year plan of what they think everyone should work on, that's fine by me - but it doesnt really affect me, and it doesnt change what I'll do tonight after i tuck my kids into bed. I have a list of things *I* want to do to the linuxcnc project, but I'd never dream of telling anyone to work on them. It's not my place to tell folks what to do. I do not publicise my todo list because I'm afraid that doing so might make people impatient for the tasks to be finished, and the pressure of that public expectation would diminish my enjoyment of doing the work. I have enough schedule and pressure in my day job and other parts of my life, I dont need any more! That's not what I'm here for! I have never read the Board of Directors Terms of Service, and until people in this thread started talking about it I didnt realize we had one. I will not go read it now, because I don't care. To me, this project works well, and legalese bores me. I run my part of our infrastructure on my dime because I happen to have the equipment and skills and interest to do it, and i think it makes our shared project better. I have no interest in trying to untangle the expense of it from the rest of my household expenses and requesting a reimbursement from a project treasurer. I dont know if we even *have* a treasurer, and if we do i dont want to spend my open-source hacking hour talking about bills. I'd rather just hack. That's where I'm coming from. - Reply message - From: Sven Wesleysvenne.d...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Jan 25, 2012 05:12 Subject: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors To:mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil, Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Andy, Understandable. The paypal link could be set up so that it could be turned on when funds are needed and turned off when the funding is met. The treasurer would have to stay on top of that though. Mark This must be the most wide spread discussion in ages at this mailing list, forums, lists, bills, credits... Doesn't matter, it just shows that even the silent people can speak (which also is a Chinese saying). :) If you guys think that the internal forum works well so be it. To me it's not better at all than (for example) cnczone or the mailing list. One board all questions, and that makes the mailing list superior. And unfortunately, there were many broken links to the forum before. Cnczone being commercial? There's no secret I'm a moderator at the zone. There's no secret a page with 140 000 members need better servers than our page. Of course there will be banners. Stating that it's a bad idea because the site might go pay-to-view based - will not happen. Why on Earth would you bite your own feeder? IF that happens, I'm the first guy to leave the site. We're lucky that someone supports the LinuxCNC (formerly known as EMC2) community with CPU and storage. So who will pay it otherwise? A paypal account seems to be a good idea - at first. How should the board/community handle the scenario when a supportive company transfers $ 100 000 and after a short while demands to get their requirements sorted out? Who will be responsible for the book keeping? What should happen if there's more money than needed? What should happen when there's LESS money than neeeded?.. My first opinion is
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/24/2012 04:52 PM, Dave wrote: Thank You Guys for doing that and footing the bill..I know hosting is not free.. if you put a donate link someplace... I think that might help offset some costs. Dave Dave, I think that's a great idea. A number of different forums, groups, etc that I belong to do just that, and it really helps with the cost of upkeep. What say ye fellow LinuxCNC'ers? Let's help out the folks that are keeping our web presence afloat out of their own pocket by chipping in a bit to offset the the yearly costs. To that effect, youse guys that are currently funding our presence, what are our yearly costs? Mark -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Wednesday, January 25, 2012 05:49:24 AM Mark Wendt did opine: On 01/24/2012 04:52 PM, Dave wrote: Thank You Guys for doing that and footing the bill..I know hosting is not free.. if you put a donate link someplace... I think that might help offset some costs. Dave Dave, I think that's a great idea. A number of different forums, groups, etc that I belong to do just that, and it really helps with the cost of upkeep. What say ye fellow LinuxCNC'ers? Let's help out the folks that are keeping our web presence afloat out of their own pocket by chipping in a bit to offset the the yearly costs. To that effect, youse guys that are currently funding our presence, what are our yearly costs? Mark I'll add my +100 here. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Batteries not included. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/25/2012 05:49 AM, gene heskett wrote: Dave, I think that's a great idea. A number of different forums, groups, etc that I belong to do just that, and it really helps with the cost of upkeep. What say ye fellow LinuxCNC'ers? Let's help out the folks that are keeping our web presence afloat out of their own pocket by chipping in a bit to offset the the yearly costs. To that effect, youse guys that are currently funding our presence, what are our yearly costs? Mark I'll add my +100 here. Does our BOD have a treasurer position? If not, perhaps it's time we added that position, create a single bank account, attach a Paypal account to it and use that to pay the web bills? Mark -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 25 January 2012 11:01, Mark Wendt mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil wrote: Does our BOD have a treasurer position? If not, perhaps it's time we added that position, create a single bank account, attach a Paypal account to it and use that to pay the web bills? There is some risk there of ending up with an embarrassment of funds. The various LinuxCNC sites are almost certainly higher-cost than the web site I pay for the hosting of (my sailing crew) but I am paying £5 per year for that. If the same hosting is also used for private content then untangling the cost proportions might well be more trouble than the current donors want to go to. Of course, I don't speak for the people in question, I am just explaining reasons why they might appear oddly reluctant. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/25/2012 06:06 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 25 January 2012 11:01, Mark Wendtmark.we...@nrl.navy.mil wrote: Does our BOD have a treasurer position? If not, perhaps it's time we added that position, create a single bank account, attach a Paypal account to it and use that to pay the web bills? There is some risk there of ending up with an embarrassment of funds. The various LinuxCNC sites are almost certainly higher-cost than the web site I pay for the hosting of (my sailing crew) but I am paying £5 per year for that. If the same hosting is also used for private content then untangling the cost proportions might well be more trouble than the current donors want to go to. Of course, I don't speak for the people in question, I am just explaining reasons why they might appear oddly reluctant. Andy, Understandable. The paypal link could be set up so that it could be turned on when funds are needed and turned off when the funding is met. The treasurer would have to stay on top of that though. Mark -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
Chris, Is there any need to have a second backup of the whole works? John On 1/24/2012 1:48 PM, Chris Radek wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:31:11AM -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote: Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. Nope. SWP pays for our advertisement-free hosting of the website, web forum, and wiki. He and Alex and sometimes Jeff administer it. I pay for the hosting of our git repository and I administer it. I take responsibility for doing backups of the whole works. Seb pays for hosting of our buildbot, and he administers that stuff. This has been the state of affairs for many years now. Before that, in the EMC1 days, Sherline provided some hosting for us. Before that, I think Steve Stallings/PMDX did (that was before my time.) -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
Andy, Understandable. The paypal link could be set up so that it could be turned on when funds are needed and turned off when the funding is met. The treasurer would have to stay on top of that though. Mark This must be the most wide spread discussion in ages at this mailing list, forums, lists, bills, credits... Doesn't matter, it just shows that even the silent people can speak (which also is a Chinese saying). :) If you guys think that the internal forum works well so be it. To me it's not better at all than (for example) cnczone or the mailing list. One board all questions, and that makes the mailing list superior. And unfortunately, there were many broken links to the forum before. Cnczone being commercial? There's no secret I'm a moderator at the zone. There's no secret a page with 140 000 members need better servers than our page. Of course there will be banners. Stating that it's a bad idea because the site might go pay-to-view based - will not happen. Why on Earth would you bite your own feeder? IF that happens, I'm the first guy to leave the site. We're lucky that someone supports the LinuxCNC (formerly known as EMC2) community with CPU and storage. So who will pay it otherwise? A paypal account seems to be a good idea - at first. How should the board/community handle the scenario when a supportive company transfers $ 100 000 and after a short while demands to get their requirements sorted out? Who will be responsible for the book keeping? What should happen if there's more money than needed? What should happen when there's LESS money than neeeded?.. My first opinion is still not changed, there are too many communication channels for a small (in a community perspective) project. it seems some of you are pretty gnarly when it comes to commercial fundings (you're not using Youtube, are you?..). Then kill the mailing list. That's commercially based service, even more than the zone. There's not a single response on Roadmap planning nor black/white listing - suggestions that _really_ affects the evolution of the software. Not even from other developers... Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
That's the beauty of having different methods of communication. You like the Zone and I hate it and never go there. Doesn't make one better than the other in any way, it just makes the LinuxCNC forum better for me and 5000 other users and the Zone better for you and the people who like to go there. Some people like the mailing list, I don't and again doesn't make it better or worse... Some people like the wiki, some use google and find user web pages for information... the options are endless. John On 1/25/2012 6:12 AM, Sven Wesley wrote: Andy, Understandable. The paypal link could be set up so that it could be turned on when funds are needed and turned off when the funding is met. The treasurer would have to stay on top of that though. Mark This must be the most wide spread discussion in ages at this mailing list, forums, lists, bills, credits... Doesn't matter, it just shows that even the silent people can speak (which also is a Chinese saying). :) If you guys think that the internal forum works well so be it. To me it's not better at all than (for example) cnczone or the mailing list. One board all questions, and that makes the mailing list superior. And unfortunately, there were many broken links to the forum before. Cnczone being commercial? There's no secret I'm a moderator at the zone. There's no secret a page with 140 000 members need better servers than our page. Of course there will be banners. Stating that it's a bad idea because the site might go pay-to-view based - will not happen. Why on Earth would you bite your own feeder? IF that happens, I'm the first guy to leave the site. We're lucky that someone supports the LinuxCNC (formerly known as EMC2) community with CPU and storage. So who will pay it otherwise? A paypal account seems to be a good idea - at first. How should the board/community handle the scenario when a supportive company transfers $ 100 000 and after a short while demands to get their requirements sorted out? Who will be responsible for the book keeping? What should happen if there's more money than needed? What should happen when there's LESS money than neeeded?.. My first opinion is still not changed, there are too many communication channels for a small (in a community perspective) project. it seems some of you are pretty gnarly when it comes to commercial fundings (you're not using Youtube, are you?..). Then kill the mailing list. That's commercially based service, even more than the zone. There's not a single response on Roadmap planning nor black/white listing - suggestions that _really_ affects the evolution of the software. Not even from other developers... Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Wednesday, January 25, 2012 08:59:05 AM Sven Wesley did opine: Andy, Understandable. The paypal link could be set up so that it could be turned on when funds are needed and turned off when the funding is met. The treasurer would have to stay on top of that though. Mark This must be the most wide spread discussion in ages at this mailing list, forums, lists, bills, credits... Doesn't matter, it just shows that even the silent people can speak (which also is a Chinese saying). :) If you guys think that the internal forum works well so be it. To me it's not better at all than (for example) cnczone or the mailing list. One board all questions, and that makes the mailing list superior. And unfortunately, there were many broken links to the forum before. Cnczone being commercial? There's no secret I'm a moderator at the zone. There's no secret a page with 140 000 members need better servers than our page. Of course there will be banners. Stating that it's a bad idea because the site might go pay-to-view based - will not happen. Why on Earth would you bite your own feeder? IF that happens, I'm the first guy to leave the site. We're lucky that someone supports the LinuxCNC (formerly known as EMC2) community with CPU and storage. So who will pay it otherwise? A paypal account seems to be a good idea - at first. How should the board/community handle the scenario when a supportive company transfers $ 100 000 and after a short while demands to get their requirements sorted out? Who will be responsible for the book keeping? What should happen if there's more money than needed? What should happen when there's LESS money than neeeded?.. My first opinion is still not changed, there are too many communication channels for a small (in a community perspective) project. I've not made a habit of visiting the cnczone, mainly because its another forum I'd have to join before I can post then take active action with a browser to track, and it looked to be much less LinuxCNC oriented. The way I have my email setup here, all I do is click next msg, answer if I can, or keep on clicking, not near as much fooling around. So it is very much the preferred medium here at the Heskett campsite. it seems some of you are pretty gnarly when it comes to commercial fundings (you're not using Youtube, are you?..). Then kill the mailing list. That's commercially based service, even more than the zone. Kill that and IMO, you'll kill LinuxCNC. The mailing list is a subscriber based list, and I can post on almost any subject, which is likely how this thread got stated. The forums generally are moderated and I generally hate them because the moderator, for instance on the pclos forum they simply delete any post that isn't praiseworthy. Bug reports are often not praiseworthy, so squawks about something not working often don't last long enough for those that could fix them to see them. There's not a single response on Roadmap planning nor black/white listing - suggestions that _really_ affects the evolution of the software. Not even from other developers... As the rest of us are noting. And having been on this list though 2 BOD elections, it does seem to me that is has been longer since the last election that it seemed to be between the other 2. OTOH I have no clue what the stated service term lengths were. Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 25 January 2012 12:12, Sven Wesley svenne.d...@gmail.com wrote: If you guys think that the internal forum works well so be it. To me it's not better at all than (for example) cnczone or the mailing list. I agree. However, it is much easier to find, and so ends up being the first port of call for new users with a problem. I guess that we could put a link there to the cnczone forum instead of having our own. I have nothing against the 'Zone and I am vaguely active there too, but it is too big. There is no way that I have the time to keep up with all of it, and the LinuxCNC-related stuff ends up being very dilute. I can and do read every post to the LinuxCNC forums and I think the same is true of the other moderators, there is a guarantee that a query there will get read, and an almost-guarantee that it will get an answer. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
I am not a board member or anything official, I'm just some guy who hacks on linuxcnc sometimes. I speak for myself. I've been following this thread since the start, and there is a disconnect between what people are asking for and how i think this project works. People are saying thing like: What's the road map of features for future releases? What features should/shouldn't I work on? Who holds the Treasurer position? How do you assign tasks to developers? These kinds of questions make no sense in my mental model of the project. This is not a company and I am not an employee, so nobody gets to tell me what to do. I'm a volunteer and I do this because I like our community, and machining, and programming. I'm doing this for fun, in my spare time that I could be doing other fun things of my own choosing. If someone wants to make a roadmap, or a list of features they want, or a 5 year plan of what they think everyone should work on, that's fine by me - but it doesnt really affect me, and it doesnt change what I'll do tonight after i tuck my kids into bed. I have a list of things *I* want to do to the linuxcnc project, but I'd never dream of telling anyone to work on them. It's not my place to tell folks what to do. I do not publicise my todo list because I'm afraid that doing so might make people impatient for the tasks to be finished, and the pressure of that public expectation would diminish my enjoyment of doing the work. I have enough schedule and pressure in my day job and other parts of my life, I dont need any more! That's not what I'm here for! I have never read the Board of Directors Terms of Service, and until people in this thread started talking about it I didnt realize we had one. I will not go read it now, because I don't care. To me, this project works well, and legalese bores me. I run my part of our infrastructure on my dime because I happen to have the equipment and skills and interest to do it, and i think it makes our shared project better. I have no interest in trying to untangle the expense of it from the rest of my household expenses and requesting a reimbursement from a project treasurer. I dont know if we even *have* a treasurer, and if we do i dont want to spend my open-source hacking hour talking about bills. I'd rather just hack. That's where I'm coming from. - Reply message - From: Sven Wesley svenne.d...@gmail.com Date: Wed, Jan 25, 2012 05:12 Subject: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors To: mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil, Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Andy, Understandable. The paypal link could be set up so that it could be turned on when funds are needed and turned off when the funding is met. The treasurer would have to stay on top of that though. Mark This must be the most wide spread discussion in ages at this mailing list, forums, lists, bills, credits... Doesn't matter, it just shows that even the silent people can speak (which also is a Chinese saying). :) If you guys think that the internal forum works well so be it. To me it's not better at all than (for example) cnczone or the mailing list. One board all questions, and that makes the mailing list superior. And unfortunately, there were many broken links to the forum before. Cnczone being commercial? There's no secret I'm a moderator at the zone. There's no secret a page with 140 000 members need better servers than our page. Of course there will be banners. Stating that it's a bad idea because the site might go pay-to-view based - will not happen. Why on Earth would you bite your own feeder? IF that happens, I'm the first guy to leave the site. We're lucky that someone supports the LinuxCNC (formerly known as EMC2) community with CPU and storage. So who will pay it otherwise? A paypal account seems to be a good idea - at first. How should the board/community handle the scenario when a supportive company transfers $ 100 000 and after a short while demands to get their requirements sorted out? Who will be responsible for the book keeping? What should happen if there's more money than needed? What should happen when there's LESS money than neeeded?.. My first opinion is still not changed, there are too many communication channels for a small (in a community perspective) project. it seems some of you are pretty gnarly when it comes to commercial fundings (you're not using Youtube, are you?..). Then kill the mailing list. That's commercially based service, even more than the zone. There's not a single response on Roadmap planning nor black/white listing - suggestions that _really_ affects the evolution of the software. Not even from other developers... Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio,
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 01:53:51PM -0700, s...@highlab.com wrote: I have a list of things *I* want to do to the linuxcnc project, but I'd never dream of telling anyone to work on them. It's not my place to tell folks what to do. Although I am not a contributor to LinuxCNC I have contributed to other open source projects. There are typically two tiers of involvement: A core team (by whatever name) has commit privileges and is responsible for deciding what patches are accepted. A larger team of interested users and developers contributes patches and ideas. When you're in that second group contributing patches it can be very frustrating to try to understand what the core team wants. For example, maybe I think that jogging while a job is paused is important so I make it possible and submit a patch. If the core team doesn't want that feature in the software then it will go nowhere. If it's a complex patch and no one on the core team is personally interested in taking responsibility for it then it will go nowhere. Making a roadmap and documenting the patch process will give potential contributors confidence to step up and start work. It's not telling people what to do, it's telling them what will be accepted into the product. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
2012/1/24 gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com On Monday, January 23, 2012 11:57:10 PM Jeff Epler did opine: Michael, I would like to address your concerns over the quality of the rebranding changes and the degree of consideration that they were given before they were made. I can speak only for myself here, and I have my linuxcnc developer hat on as I write this.. I don't have any trouble admitting that some of the changes I've pushed to v2.5_branch since the announcement may have been hasty and may require fine-tuning, if not outright reversion. Personally, I felt like a huge burden had been lifted from me by the announcement; now I could finally *do something* about this problem that has been hanging over our project for months. On the other hand, I still think the approach of starting by renaming stuff and then fixing what broke was the right one. If I had waited to push the changes until they were perfect, collaborating with my fellow developers would have been more difficult. Also in retrospect, a rebranding branch would have been a good idea (allowing collaboration while not leaving v2.5_branch unstable for days and days) but that, too, is water under the bridge. Starting a branch now will not benefit anyone, since v2.5_branch would be just as broken as it is now until the rebranding branch was merged. (and reverting the v2.5_branch to before the rebranding seems a very severe choice, because many people have already pulled these commits) The v2.5_branch is actually in pretty good shape now, AFAIK. Where it's not, let's talk about and address the specific technical issues. I hope that you will continue in supporting and contributing to our project. Jeff I both agree and disagree. I do think that LinuxCNC is a better name than EMC2, but I think a renaming process could have been handled differently. I also think that the communication and evolution of EMC2/LinuxCNC has decreased a lot. See this as a good time to restart this project! 1. Andy's idea of a white/black list is a VERY good start to proceed and to make this a fresh restart. Just do it. 2. Make a public Roadmap! Best case, make it voteable. I rather see 2 known-to-public well implemented features than 10 halfway coded surprises. 3. There are too many info channels! Close down the forum on the LinuxCNC website ASAP! It doesn't work, Google can't make correct forward links and some browsers fail to show it. There is an active forum at cnczone (I'll fix the renaming), there's a working mailing list (also active). There is a more or less dead website, the wiki is somewhat updated but still there are obsolete chapters or dead links (I promise to update the wiki myself more frequently in the future). At last, I will not put any energy into a debate about right or wrong name. I see this as an opportunity to make a restart and make this fantastic system better and future secured. Many people have spent so many hours in this project and we should take care of that! Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
Why on earth would you want to close down the LinuxCNC forum and shift to a commercial laden for profit forum? There is nothing more annoying that waiting for all the commercials to load and clutter up your screen at the zone. Do you work for or derive profit the zone? John On 1/24/2012 7:47 AM, Sven Wesley wrote: 2012/1/24 gene heskettghesk...@wdtv.com On Monday, January 23, 2012 11:57:10 PM Jeff Epler did opine: Michael, I would like to address your concerns over the quality of the rebranding changes and the degree of consideration that they were given before they were made. I can speak only for myself here, and I have my linuxcnc developer hat on as I write this.. I don't have any trouble admitting that some of the changes I've pushed to v2.5_branch since the announcement may have been hasty and may require fine-tuning, if not outright reversion. Personally, I felt like a huge burden had been lifted from me by the announcement; now I could finally *do something* about this problem that has been hanging over our project for months. On the other hand, I still think the approach of starting by renaming stuff and then fixing what broke was the right one. If I had waited to push the changes until they were perfect, collaborating with my fellow developers would have been more difficult. Also in retrospect, a rebranding branch would have been a good idea (allowing collaboration while not leaving v2.5_branch unstable for days and days) but that, too, is water under the bridge. Starting a branch now will not benefit anyone, since v2.5_branch would be just as broken as it is now until the rebranding branch was merged. (and reverting the v2.5_branch to before the rebranding seems a very severe choice, because many people have already pulled these commits) The v2.5_branch is actually in pretty good shape now, AFAIK. Where it's not, let's talk about and address the specific technical issues. I hope that you will continue in supporting and contributing to our project. Jeff I both agree and disagree. I do think that LinuxCNC is a better name than EMC2, but I think a renaming process could have been handled differently. I also think that the communication and evolution of EMC2/LinuxCNC has decreased a lot. See this as a good time to restart this project! 1. Andy's idea of a white/black list is a VERY good start to proceed and to make this a fresh restart. Just do it. 2. Make a public Roadmap! Best case, make it voteable. I rather see 2 known-to-public well implemented features than 10 halfway coded surprises. 3. There are too many info channels! Close down the forum on the LinuxCNC website ASAP! It doesn't work, Google can't make correct forward links and some browsers fail to show it. There is an active forum at cnczone (I'll fix the renaming), there's a working mailing list (also active). There is a more or less dead website, the wiki is somewhat updated but still there are obsolete chapters or dead links (I promise to update the wiki myself more frequently in the future). At last, I will not put any energy into a debate about right or wrong name. I see this as an opportunity to make a restart and make this fantastic system better and future secured. Many people have spent so many hours in this project and we should take care of that! Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 1/24/2012 8:47 AM, Sven Wesley wrote: 3. There are too many info channels! Close down the forum on the LinuxCNC website ASAP! It doesn't work, Google can't make correct forward links and some browsers fail to show it. There is an active forum at cnczone (I'll fix the renaming), there's a working mailing list (also active). There is a more or less dead website, the wiki is somewhat updated but still there are obsolete chapters or dead links (I promise to update the wiki myself more frequently in the future). I had a thesis adviser who was fond of quoting from Chairman Mao Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land. (Frequently restated as let a thousand flowers bloom.) The Internet seems to agree. People use the method of communication that best suits them. There are lots of people, resulting in lots of channels. It seems to me that this plethora of information channels functions pretty well in normal times. The only thing that I would wish for is a synoptic function, similar to what happens with news.ycombinator.com, so in one place I could get a feel for what's happening without having to wade through all the channels myself. But who would do it and how would we ensure it is done any better? It is the current climate of rapid change that stresses multiple channels because it takes a finite amount of time for the changes to propagate, frequently leaving the channels out of synch. I personally favor the email lists and the Wiki. I've spent time reading and editing the Wiki. It suffers no more and no less than the other channels you mention. Many people touch the core topics, few---perhaps only the author---touch the pages on the peripheral topics. Many become irrelevant with the passage of time but they represent our thinking over time. Rather than either struggling to keep each and every page up-to-date, which in some cases is akin to putting lipstick on a pig, or simply deleting them, which is a denial of our history, I favor following the pattern used by some contributors and marking them as obsolete, deprecated, or whatever and point to the alternative. The website could be subsumed into the Wiki but I don't see the need. It is perfectly serviceable as the first point of contact. It could use more active administration, for example the rebranding certainly qualifies as NEWS, but I think the changes that have transpired over the last year have left it in good shape. Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Kent -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
John Thornton wrote: Why on earth would you want to close down the LinuxCNC forum and shift to a commercial laden for profit forum? There is nothing more annoying that waiting for all the commercials to load and clutter up your screen at the zone. Do you work for or derive profit the zone? Oh, that's a different story. The performance of CNCzone was never great, but tolerable. NOW, it is EXECRABLE! I have a 20 MB/s internet, and I often have to wait a MINUTE for the ads to load before I can see some discussion. Their server is massively overloaded, but they don't care as long as it brings in cash. Jon -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
That is the main reason I don't go to the zone as with my 1Mb (sometimes that good sometimes not so good) it takes 30 minutes to load a page then you have to navigate all the ads to find the forum... John On 1/24/2012 12:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote: John Thornton wrote: Why on earth would you want to close down the LinuxCNC forum and shift to a commercial laden for profit forum? There is nothing more annoying that waiting for all the commercials to load and clutter up your screen at the zone. Do you work for or derive profit the zone? Oh, that's a different story. The performance of CNCzone was never great, but tolerable. NOW, it is EXECRABLE! I have a 20 MB/s internet, and I often have to wait a MINUTE for the ads to load before I can see some discussion. Their server is massively overloaded, but they don't care as long as it brings in cash. Jon -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/24/2012 12:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Oh, that's a different story. The performance of CNCzone was never great, but tolerable. NOW, it is EXECRABLE! I have a 20 MB/s internet, and I often have to wait a MINUTE for the ads to load before I can see some discussion. Their It is easy to set up a server with forum software without adds - I could set one up, but I'm not so sure it is in our interest in the long run. I have the emails from this list that go back to 2008 and can search for key words in the posts etc.. No data base crash will make that information go away. The other issue is one I site from experience - web based forums tend to have more noise and OT posts on them. There is something about being email-list fluent that keeps the non serous from watering down the substance. Probably the best system is a mailing list that also has a webpage that displays threads and allows advanced searches. Karl Schmidt EMail k...@xtronics.com Transtronics, Inc. WEB http://xtronics.com 3209 West 9th Street Ph (785) 841-3089 Lawrence, KS 66049 FAX (785) 841-0434 Looking at money through the eyes of emotion will provide you with poverty. In a free society, considering money through objective logic will provide you with wealth. kps -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Tue, 2012-01-24 at 12:42 -0600, John Thornton wrote: That is the main reason I don't go to the zone as with my 1Mb (sometimes that good sometimes not so good) it takes 30 minutes to load a page then you have to navigate all the ads to find the forum... John Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:31:11AM -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote: Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. Nope. SWP pays for our advertisement-free hosting of the website, web forum, and wiki. He and Alex and sometimes Jeff administer it. I pay for the hosting of our git repository and I administer it. I take responsibility for doing backups of the whole works. Seb pays for hosting of our buildbot, and he administers that stuff. This has been the state of affairs for many years now. Before that, in the EMC1 days, Sherline provided some hosting for us. Before that, I think Steve Stallings/PMDX did (that was before my time.) -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. -- Kirk Wallace Duh, well once upon a time, but not any longer. I think that credit now goes to Stephen Willie Padnos and DreamHost. Perhaps you could point out the reference to PMDX and someone in control of the current web site can give credit where credit is due. Cheers, Steve Stallings www.PMDX.com -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Tue, 2012-01-24 at 11:41 -0800, steve...@newsguy.com wrote: Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. -- Kirk Wallace Duh, well once upon a time, but not any longer. I think that credit now goes to Stephen Willie Padnos and DreamHost. Perhaps you could point out the reference to PMDX and http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/about near the bottom of the page. someone in control of the current web site can give credit where credit is due. I would love to give the credit where it is due. I gave it my best shot. Cheers, Steve Stallings www.PMDX.com Thank you v1.0, Steve, thank you Stephen v2.0, ? v3? -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
I entirely agree. There is nothing wrong with the forum as it is. The CNCZone is not open and could go to a paid subscription service in a heartbeat. Dave On 1/24/2012 9:56 AM, John Thornton wrote: Why on earth would you want to close down the LinuxCNC forum and shift to a commercial laden for profit forum? There is nothing more annoying that waiting for all the commercials to load and clutter up your screen at the zone. Do you work for or derive profit the zone? John On 1/24/2012 7:47 AM, Sven Wesley wrote: 2012/1/24 gene heskettghesk...@wdtv.com On Monday, January 23, 2012 11:57:10 PM Jeff Epler did opine: Michael, I would like to address your concerns over the quality of the rebranding changes and the degree of consideration that they were given before they were made. I can speak only for myself here, and I have my linuxcnc developer hat on as I write this.. I don't have any trouble admitting that some of the changes I've pushed to v2.5_branch since the announcement may have been hasty and may require fine-tuning, if not outright reversion. Personally, I felt like a huge burden had been lifted from me by the announcement; now I could finally *do something* about this problem that has been hanging over our project for months. On the other hand, I still think the approach of starting by renaming stuff and then fixing what broke was the right one. If I had waited to push the changes until they were perfect, collaborating with my fellow developers would have been more difficult. Also in retrospect, a rebranding branch would have been a good idea (allowing collaboration while not leaving v2.5_branch unstable for days and days) but that, too, is water under the bridge. Starting a branch now will not benefit anyone, since v2.5_branch would be just as broken as it is now until the rebranding branch was merged. (and reverting the v2.5_branch to before the rebranding seems a very severe choice, because many people have already pulled these commits) The v2.5_branch is actually in pretty good shape now, AFAIK. Where it's not, let's talk about and address the specific technical issues. I hope that you will continue in supporting and contributing to our project. Jeff I both agree and disagree. I do think that LinuxCNC is a better name than EMC2, but I think a renaming process could have been handled differently. I also think that the communication and evolution of EMC2/LinuxCNC has decreased a lot. See this as a good time to restart this project! 1. Andy's idea of a white/black list is a VERY good start to proceed and to make this a fresh restart. Just do it. 2. Make a public Roadmap! Best case, make it voteable. I rather see 2 known-to-public well implemented features than 10 halfway coded surprises. 3. There are too many info channels! Close down the forum on the LinuxCNC website ASAP! It doesn't work, Google can't make correct forward links and some browsers fail to show it. There is an active forum at cnczone (I'll fix the renaming), there's a working mailing list (also active). There is a more or less dead website, the wiki is somewhat updated but still there are obsolete chapters or dead links (I promise to update the wiki myself more frequently in the future). At last, I will not put any energy into a debate about right or wrong name. I see this as an opportunity to make a restart and make this fantastic system better and future secured. Many people have spent so many hours in this project and we should take care of that! Regards, Sven -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3,
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 01/24/2012 12:36 PM, Jon Elson wrote: John Thornton wrote: Why on earth would you want to close down the LinuxCNC forum and shift to a commercial laden for profit forum? There is nothing more annoying that waiting for all the commercials to load and clutter up your screen at the zone. Do you work for or derive profit the zone? Oh, that's a different story. The performance of CNCzone was never great, but tolerable. NOW, it is EXECRABLE! I have a 20 MB/s internet, and I often have to wait a MINUTE for the ads to load before I can see some discussion. Their server is massively overloaded, but they don't care as long as it brings in cash. Jon Adblock Plus is your friend. I never leave home... uh, get on the net without it. I forget that ads even exist on most sites. http://adblockplus.org/ Moses -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Tuesday, January 24, 2012 07:50:23 PM Dave did opine: On 1/24/2012 2:48 PM, Chris Radek wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:31:11AM -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote: Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. Nope. SWP pays for our advertisement-free hosting of the website, web forum, and wiki. He and Alex and sometimes Jeff administer it. I pay for the hosting of our git repository and I administer it. I take responsibility for doing backups of the whole works. Seb pays for hosting of our buildbot, and he administers that stuff. This has been the state of affairs for many years now. Before that, in the EMC1 days, Sherline provided some hosting for us. Before that, I think Steve Stallings/PMDX did (that was before my time.) Thank You Guys for doing that and footing the bill..I know hosting is not free.. if you put a donate link someplace... I think that might help offset some costs. Dave For the help I have received, durn tootin I'll donate. But I'd prefer you who are footing the bills agree on who gets what percentage all draw the the same donate page. In the meantime, thank you all for doing a bang up job of keeping it all alive, 24/7/365.25. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene With clothes the new are best, with friends the old are best. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 6:53 PM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Tuesday, January 24, 2012 07:50:23 PM Dave did opine: On 1/24/2012 2:48 PM, Chris Radek wrote: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:31:11AM -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote: Thank goodness for the servers that host our website, wiki and such. It looks like PMDX gets credit for this. Thank you. Nope. SWP pays for our advertisement-free hosting of the website, web forum, and wiki. He and Alex and sometimes Jeff administer it. I pay for the hosting of our git repository and I administer it. I take responsibility for doing backups of the whole works. Seb pays for hosting of our buildbot, and he administers that stuff. This has been the state of affairs for many years now. Before that, in the EMC1 days, Sherline provided some hosting for us. Before that, I think Steve Stallings/PMDX did (that was before my time.) Thank You Guys for doing that and footing the bill..I know hosting is not free.. if you put a donate link someplace... I think that might help offset some costs. Dave For the help I have received, durn tootin I'll donate. But I'd prefer you who are footing the bills agree on who gets what percentage all draw the the same donate page. In the meantime, thank you all for doing a bang up job of keeping it all alive, 24/7/365.25. ditto ditto ditto -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene With clothes the new are best, with friends the old are best. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On 25 January 2012 00:53, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: For the help I have received, durn tootin I'll donate. But I'd prefer you who are footing the bills agree I was thinking about this while doing the dishes. Something I have never seen is a donate button that shows the current balance, and disables itself when the bills are up to date. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
Michael, I would like to address your concerns over the quality of the rebranding changes and the degree of consideration that they were given before they were made. I can speak only for myself here, and I have my linuxcnc developer hat on as I write this.. I don't have any trouble admitting that some of the changes I've pushed to v2.5_branch since the announcement may have been hasty and may require fine-tuning, if not outright reversion. Personally, I felt like a huge burden had been lifted from me by the announcement; now I could finally *do something* about this problem that has been hanging over our project for months. On the other hand, I still think the approach of starting by renaming stuff and then fixing what broke was the right one. If I had waited to push the changes until they were perfect, collaborating with my fellow developers would have been more difficult. Also in retrospect, a rebranding branch would have been a good idea (allowing collaboration while not leaving v2.5_branch unstable for days and days) but that, too, is water under the bridge. Starting a branch now will not benefit anyone, since v2.5_branch would be just as broken as it is now until the rebranding branch was merged. (and reverting the v2.5_branch to before the rebranding seems a very severe choice, because many people have already pulled these commits) The v2.5_branch is actually in pretty good shape now, AFAIK. Where it's not, let's talk about and address the specific technical issues. I hope that you will continue in supporting and contributing to our project. Jeff -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
I will add my voice at least so Michael knows he is not the only one who feels this way. First: Jeff thank you for answering. And I'm glad to see you back in a more active role. I hope what ever kept you away has worked out well. Michael, I would like to address your concerns over the quality of the rebranding changes and the degree of consideration that they were given before they were made. I can speak only for myself here, and I have my linuxcnc developer hat on as I write this.. I don't have any trouble admitting that some of the changes I've pushed to v2.5_branch since the announcement may have been hasty and may require fine-tuning, if not outright reversion. Personally, I felt like a huge burden had been lifted from me by the announcement; now I could finally *do something* about this problem that has been hanging over our project for months. You may have missed Michaels major point - communication. Why was this problem hanging over our project for months without anyone other then board directors knowing _anything_ about it. In fact from what was written, it was almost a year ago the board first heard of it. On the other hand, I still think the approach of starting by renaming stuff and then fixing what broke was the right one. If I had waited to push the changes until they were perfect, collaborating with my fellow developers would have been more difficult. Obviously in hindsight as you said a branch would have been better. But how about a rough idea what will change and what it will change to _before_ we start? There is still talk on names for TKemc yet it has been changed once already. I would have done some rebranding work on PNCconf but I have no idea what will and what will not change. A small discussion over irc and maillist would be helpful IMHO. This communication problem is not new. The docs got all messed up - we asked for the board to help with a direction no official answer came AFAIK. I've (and others) have asked for a rough timeline of feature freeze and release. None officially came. I have read a couple times in IRC of dates one was in July the other Feb. Yet we haven't actually been told officially its feature freeze time. One has to read- between-the-lines to know. Yet between July and now many new things have been added. Never mind the fact that Feb release was talked of then a couple days later we are rebranding everything! In fact I gave up trying to get confirmed dates and develop PNCconf by my personal prediction of release. I'm ok with this as even if I get caught with my pants down with a big bug it doesnn't stop linuxcnc from working, it just annoys new users. Now I'm not trying to beat you personally up with this. In the past in fact you were excellent for setting timelines and dates - this is a board problem. So I ask what is the boards purpose? Is to develop guideline and official communication not part of it? Is there another reason that we are not aware of that this is not happening? Is there a reason the board feels we don't need to know what we have asked for? Is there anything as developers we can do to help? I would hate to see linuxcnc splintered through frustration. Thank you. Chris M -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open letter to the EMC Board of Directors
On Monday, January 23, 2012 11:57:10 PM Jeff Epler did opine: Michael, I would like to address your concerns over the quality of the rebranding changes and the degree of consideration that they were given before they were made. I can speak only for myself here, and I have my linuxcnc developer hat on as I write this.. I don't have any trouble admitting that some of the changes I've pushed to v2.5_branch since the announcement may have been hasty and may require fine-tuning, if not outright reversion. Personally, I felt like a huge burden had been lifted from me by the announcement; now I could finally *do something* about this problem that has been hanging over our project for months. On the other hand, I still think the approach of starting by renaming stuff and then fixing what broke was the right one. If I had waited to push the changes until they were perfect, collaborating with my fellow developers would have been more difficult. Also in retrospect, a rebranding branch would have been a good idea (allowing collaboration while not leaving v2.5_branch unstable for days and days) but that, too, is water under the bridge. Starting a branch now will not benefit anyone, since v2.5_branch would be just as broken as it is now until the rebranding branch was merged. (and reverting the v2.5_branch to before the rebranding seems a very severe choice, because many people have already pulled these commits) The v2.5_branch is actually in pretty good shape now, AFAIK. Where it's not, let's talk about and address the specific technical issues. I hope that you will continue in supporting and contributing to our project. Jeff Jeff: I apparently put the wrong branch in my synaptic repo file, because I have now pulled two updates wearing a 2.6.0-some-githash version. AFAIK, they are working 'nominally'. IOW, it doesn't look as bad as you are saying from this end of the pipe. So ATM I am fairly happy. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene The chain which can be yanked is not the eternal chain. -- G. Fitch -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
