Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Olivier Cassart]

Hello all,

I decided to write posts about the history of Ultimate and SOTG on a FB
group.

That FB group is called "Frisbee History Europe", and you may become
member, or see the posts here :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/115921909080980/

The post of today talks about one of the greatest article ever written
about the SOTG, by Irv Kalb in 1980.  To read !

The previous posts talked about the evolution of the very first Ultimate
rules with the links to the first 7 Rules Editions of the International
Frisbee Association between 1970 and 1978 !  To follow...

Voilà, enjoy all of those archives, and don't hesitate to spread the
info/link.

Olivier


2018-03-01 7:51 GMT+01:00 Bernier Paul <paul.bern...@marchesini.com>:

> So, ultimate as it is has a LOT to teach !!!
>
>
>
> Inviato da smartphone Samsung Galaxy.
>
>
>  Messaggio originale 
> Da: Terri Brandt <terri.j.bra...@gmail.com>
> Data: 01/03/18 07:09 (GMT+01:00)
> A: Olivier Cassart <cassart.oliv...@gmail.com>
> Cc: eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de, "Patrick van der Valk (BULA)" <
> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors
>
> Thanks for the information Oddi!
> The data on the pregame spirit circle I find particularly interesting and
> heartening!
>
> And thanks for the call out Olivier and Patricia. :)
>
> Chee, I wanted to speak a moment to your very good point about people with
> neurological differences that may impact their ability to emotionally
> regulate. As a baseline, I think it's important to include these folks just
> as much as more neuro-typical people.
>
> I think as we as a society become more aware of these types of differences
> as just different, we'll be able to find more solutions and equip ourselves
> better. For instance I would be receptive if, before we started a game --
> perhaps in the pregame spirit circle! :), someone felt comfortable enough
> to tell me/my team, 'I have Tourettes. Please give me a minute after a call
> to respond to you in the way that I would like to.' This information is
> particularly useful for me because then I know I can take a deep breath,
> ignore their first response as involuntary, and wait for the one the person
> wants to make. They've enabled me to help them deescalate the situation
> from the very beginning, which is awesome!
>
> Helping one's teammates and the other team understand one's context, like
> this and the multitude of other creative ways we'll come up with by
> listening thoughtfully to each other, will allow us all to better
> accommodate each other and to create environments that work better for
> everyone. I hope this thoughtful listening also leads to more equity for
> groups that are typically underrepresented in ultimate in Europe, the US,
> etc.
>
> I hope that, whether we're closer to neurotypical or further from it, and
> whether we win the spirit award or not, we'll all still continue to work
> towards SotG just as hard as we do towards throwing, cutting, etc better.
> :)  For me, that is fundamentally part of the trust that 'no player will
> intentionally break the rules.'
>
> Wishing you all the best!
> -Terri
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Olivier Cassart <
> cassart.oliv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Great message Terri, thank you for coming with the key points.
>>
>> You really are in the depth of the heart of the Spirit of the Game, that
>> is :
>> The SELF-RESPONSIBILITY of players, captains, SOTG captains, coaches,
>> National and International Federations to try (I never said that it is
>> easy) to keep Ultimate self-refereed, even at the highest level of
>> competition !
>>
>> Like Trent Simmons, US player and Ultimate/SOTG Educator all around the
>> world, https://10milliondiscs.org/
>> <http://hybrid-web.global.blackspider.com/urlwrap/?q=AXicBcExDsIwDAXQfwUu4iSoahETEiNTNxhLGoElJ46cCMSZWDgQ12Dnvc0Rlzfw-wImr-BXavagvLBELd1UKGrGcxvGXT3PfgrDNKDSNVnhZIeSjIk77r3Xtncu-MwirGXlFhup3RyA0wf4AygTIfo>,
>>  wrote
>> in a comment on the Ultiworld's topic *"An Open Letter to WFDF - It's
>> time for Observers"...*
>> https://ultiworld.com/2013/08/08/an-open-letter-to-wfdf-its-
>> time-for-observers/
>> (Don't hesitate to go read all the comments on that topic..., it will
>> give you an amazing outlook of different players'opinions about
>> self-refereed and self-officiated Ultimate, observers and even
>> referees...):
>>
>> *"Observers are a band-aid on a cancer which has probably always been a
>> part of our sport but is currently under scrutiny (again).*
>>
>> *That cancer is

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Terri Brandt]

asons - I'm not making a judgement about their morals.  *
>>>
>>> *We'll be putting out a post soon about recruiting new members to the
>>> UKU SOTG committee so please look out for that.*
>>>
>>> *Si*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Nick Bond
>>>> (me, not my team, or anyone else)
>>>>
>>>> On 26 February 2018 at 12:42, Simon Hill <si.h...@ukultimate.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I watched some of the games at WU24 in Perth and my impression was
>>>>> that the GAs provided helpful support in some of the more difficult
>>>>> situations.  One of the games where the GA really helped IMO was between
>>>>> Germany and Italy open teams - where they had an incredible (but also very
>>>>> tense) sudden death point.  The main benefit - again just IMO - the GA
>>>>> provided was by *indirectly* helping the teams to keep emotional responses
>>>>> to contested calls under control, and I think that helped the two teams to
>>>>> play a really fantastic and dramatic last point.  Congratulations to both
>>>>> teams and the GAs in that match.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the folks here that are strongly against the GA programme: did you
>>>>> watch some of those games in Perth?  What did you think of the impact of
>>>>> GAs in those games?  Mostly I saw no impact (which is the ideal that the
>>>>> GAs are hoping for).  And in a few cases I saw a very positive impact.
>>>>>
>>>>> Si
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Si Hill, UK Ultimate
>>>>> si.h...@ukultimate.com
>>>>> Tel: 0844 8045949 <0844%20804%205949>
>>>>> Mob: 07802 311298
>>>>> Skype: sihill22
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <
>>>>> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. Part of Spirit is respectful communication. We clearly all
>>>>>> care. Please stay civil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some
>>>>>> people are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not 
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> continue it here on the mailing list?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic
>>>>>> as well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in
>>>>>> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show,
>>>>>> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use
>>>>>> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and
>>>>>> using budget money).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liam, I know it is tough dealing with multiple communication
>>>>>> platforms, but that is a sign of the times. I would be grateful if you 
>>>>>> (or
>>>>>> others from the WFDF) could also continue the conversation here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On
>>>>>> Behalf Of *Robert Jablko
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 10:38 AM
>>>>>> *To:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems there are a lot of emotions concerning the advisor topic,
>>>>>> and that should be discussed, here or somewhere else, but I strongy feel
>>>>>> that neither Liam or anybody else in ultimate

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Olivier Cassart]

"...penalties for flagrantly breaching rules, sanctions against
>> individual players / teams for poor spirit, etc ..."
>>
>> *This still leaves you with the problem of determining the process for
>> implementing that sort of penalty.  Who decides?  On what basis?  Do they
>> receive any training to help them practice watching a game for "flagrant
>> breaches"?  Do they receive any training for how to communicate with a
>> player or team that is accused of flagrant breaches?  *
>>
>>
>>>
>>> While Ultimate is primarily ruled by Spirit, I'm sure everyone has
>>> played a match with/against someone who didn't represent the ideals of
>>> Spirit. The issue I have with the current system is that lack of Spirit
>>> isn't recorded or reflected anywhere for future matches, and generally
>>> there isn't any feedback given to that player's captains / team. I've
>>> personally told people that they aren't welcome to play with my team again
>>> unless they respect SOTG.
>>> GA's / "observers" / referees take, at least some of, the responsibility
>>> for policing Spirit away from the players.
>>>
>>
>> [SH] *OR the GA provides us with an *additional* mechanism to support
>> teams, players, coaches that need a bit of help.  Teams might need help for
>> all sorts of reasons - I'm not making a judgement about their morals.  *
>>
>> *We'll be putting out a post soon about recruiting new members to the UKU
>> SOTG committee so please look out for that.*
>>
>> *Si*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Nick Bond
>>> (me, not my team, or anyone else)
>>>
>>> On 26 February 2018 at 12:42, Simon Hill <si.h...@ukultimate.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I watched some of the games at WU24 in Perth and my impression was that
>>>> the GAs provided helpful support in some of the more difficult situations.
>>>> One of the games where the GA really helped IMO was between Germany and
>>>> Italy open teams - where they had an incredible (but also very tense)
>>>> sudden death point.  The main benefit - again just IMO - the GA provided
>>>> was by *indirectly* helping the teams to keep emotional responses to
>>>> contested calls under control, and I think that helped the two teams to
>>>> play a really fantastic and dramatic last point.  Congratulations to both
>>>> teams and the GAs in that match.
>>>>
>>>> For the folks here that are strongly against the GA programme: did you
>>>> watch some of those games in Perth?  What did you think of the impact of
>>>> GAs in those games?  Mostly I saw no impact (which is the ideal that the
>>>> GAs are hoping for).  And in a few cases I saw a very positive impact.
>>>>
>>>> Si
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Si Hill, UK Ultimate
>>>> si.h...@ukultimate.com
>>>> Tel: 0844 8045949 <0844%20804%205949>
>>>> Mob: 07802 311298
>>>> Skype: sihill22
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <
>>>> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. Part of Spirit is respectful communication. We clearly all
>>>>> care. Please stay civil.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some
>>>>> people are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not also
>>>>> continue it here on the mailing list?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic
>>>>> as well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in
>>>>> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show,
>>>>> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education 
>>>>> is
>>>>> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use
>>>>> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and
>>>>> using budget money).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Liam, I know it is tough dealing with multiple communication
>>>>> platforms, but t

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Family account]

Hi All,  

I don't usually contribute to this list, and don't really have an intention to 
remain consistently involved in this discussion, but I would like to point out 
that some of the expectations expressed on this list seem unrealistic to me:  

It has been established over the last couple of decades that the ability to 
train self control is actually limited.* In effect this means that there will 
always be players whose ability to immediately respond rationally and 
respectfully will be limited. All players can be trained to the point where 
they can recite the rule book perfectly. And, when off the field (or in 
low-pressure situations), look at situations objectively and model spirited 
responses to calls excellently.  

Yet, when the pressure comes on, they will not respond in the same way. I think 
we've all seen it, or had a player on our own team like that. Unfortunately, I 
think we also believe that this is due to a lack of education, or a lack of 
spirit, or that they will improve with time, rather than seeing it for what it 
is: not everyone can learn the same degree of self control or emotional 
detachment. And, it takes different people a different amount of time to cool 
to the point where they can discuss a call rationally.  

Factor in the idea that we want to resolve calls within 30 seconds, and we've 
put some players (the ones that often make it difficult to maintain spirit in a 
game) in an impossible situation. They are not allowed the time to cool down so 
that they can respond rationally, and then they come under fire for not 
responding rationally. I see that as a lose-lose situation. The players most in 
need of time to cool down are precisely the players involved in controversial 
calls and forced to respond quickly.  

We don't factor in things like players with ADHD or Autism spectrum disorders 
(or players with other neurological differences) who spend a huge amount of 
energy trying to modify their behavior to fit in under normal conditions. That 
player that looks like an asshole for calling 1 cm of travel could be someone 
who literally can do no other than say "rules are rules and that is travel."  

I guess my point is that it may not be reasonable to expect that every player 
can maintain their equilibrium well enough to be entirely self refereeing at 
all times and at all levels. As the sport grows, so too will the number of 
player to whom this applies. And just to be clear, I don't think the solution 
is to ban these players, or prevent them from competing above a certain level.  
  
I'm not arguing that GAs will help (or not help, for that matter) either. 
Instead, I'd argue that we need to train the players that *are* capable of 
quickly recovering self control to give their opponents the time required. That 
we accept that both within our teams and on opposition teams there are players 
who will need assistance. This requires, I believe, a cultural change. At the 
moment we do not really acknowledge that on our own teams there are players 
that, when under pressure, really do need assistance. If we were more open 
about that, then the other players on a team might be willing to intervene 
early because they know the player and recognize the signs before the 
opposition does.

Anyway, back to lurking.  

Chee  

*I'm sure everyone here can give me an anecdote of a player that did learn self 
control. Just remember that studies are aggregate, they tell us about average 
populations and what to expect from them. A minority of individuals can be 
different while the general conclusion remains valid.  


On 27 February 2018 at 16:06:06, Andrea Furlan 
(furlanandr...@gmail.com(mailto:furlanandr...@gmail.com)) wrote:

>  
> Dear European Ultimate Community,
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Thank you for all the contributions to the discussion about the role of Game 
> Advisors, especially regarding GAs in Europe.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Before entering into the EUF position, and how the EUF tackles the challenge 
> of player infractions that are not quickly resolved through self-officiation, 
> we would like to stress that discussions must always be done in a respectful 
> way, regardless of the differences in opinion. This is at the core of the 
> Spirit of the Game.  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> EUF has never adopted GAs so far, and there are no plans to introduce them in 
> the EUF sanctioned events.  
> According to the EUF Bylaws, if a member federation would like to introduce 
> this aspect in EUF sanctioned events, we would need to discuss it during the 
> General Assembly (in the yearly event, or in a meeting called specifically 
> regarding the topic). A decision would be taken in that forum.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> At present, the EUF is still adopting the following strategy, using options 
> already covered by the rules:
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Proactive Activities
>  
>  
> · Education: One of the core parts and the very first topic covered in "EUF 
> Train the Trainer" 

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Lukas Kahwe Smith]

Hello,

I have yet to see anyone answer these two simple questions:
1) What wasn't possible before GAs were added to the appendix?
2) Why are these things so critical, that its necessary to cause this confusion?

--

Again its one thing to have people do score/time-keeping, bringing discs into 
play quicker, being knowledge in the rules etc .. its not another to make such 
people get special attention in the rules (even if its just in the appendix).

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org





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Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Terri Brandt]

nd my impression was that
>>> the GAs provided helpful support in some of the more difficult situations.
>>> One of the games where the GA really helped IMO was between Germany and
>>> Italy open teams - where they had an incredible (but also very tense)
>>> sudden death point.  The main benefit - again just IMO - the GA provided
>>> was by *indirectly* helping the teams to keep emotional responses to
>>> contested calls under control, and I think that helped the two teams to
>>> play a really fantastic and dramatic last point.  Congratulations to both
>>> teams and the GAs in that match.
>>>
>>> For the folks here that are strongly against the GA programme: did you
>>> watch some of those games in Perth?  What did you think of the impact of
>>> GAs in those games?  Mostly I saw no impact (which is the ideal that the
>>> GAs are hoping for).  And in a few cases I saw a very positive impact.
>>>
>>> Si
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Si Hill, UK Ultimate
>>> si.h...@ukultimate.com
>>> Tel: 0844 8045949 <0844%20804%205949>
>>> Mob: 07802 311298
>>> Skype: sihill22
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <
>>> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Agreed. Part of Spirit is respectful communication. We clearly all
>>>> care. Please stay civil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some
>>>> people are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not also
>>>> continue it here on the mailing list?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic
>>>> as well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in
>>>> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show,
>>>> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education is
>>>> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use
>>>> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and
>>>> using budget money).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Liam, I know it is tough dealing with multiple communication platforms,
>>>> but that is a sign of the times. I would be grateful if you (or others from
>>>> the WFDF) could also continue the conversation here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Patrick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On
>>>> Behalf Of *Robert Jablko
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 10:38 AM
>>>> *To:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems there are a lot of emotions concerning the advisor topic, and
>>>> that should be discussed, here or somewhere else, but I strongy feel that
>>>> neither Liam or anybody else in ultimate deserves any kind of hostility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Robse
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Former chair of Rules and SOTG comitee, Germany
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2018-02-26 11:22 GMT+01:00 Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>:
>>>>
>>>> are you deaf? can't you read? The dsicussion needs to take place on the
>>>> email group. This one.
>>>>
>>>> I think I made this clear.
>>>>
>>>> I am not gonna join any discussion on FB. Why? I made this clar as well.
>>>>
>>>> Keep the spirit!
>>>> Mirko, YeaHaw!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Hi Mirko,
>>>> >
>>>> > My personal oppinion is actually an email list and a Facebook group
>>>> are
>>>> > both terrible places for a discussion. But thats just my opinion. I'm
>>>> not
>>>> > hosting or directing any type of discussion - I'm just happy and
>>>> > encouraging of one taking place and when I can I'll pers

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Simon Hill]

spectators, indirect benefit to players as it
prevented emotional escalation).  Maybe some of the players in those games
could relate their experiences (good and bad) *


> Could that not have been replicated in some other manner, without GA's? ie
> more emphasis on Spirit, stronger leadership from the coaching team, even
> penalties for flagrantly breaching rules, sanctions against individual
> players / teams for poor spirit, etc
>

[SH] *I think WFDF has done a lot to try to put more emphasis on SOTG.  *

*Enforcing strong leadership from the coaching team is something that I'm
sure all National Federations are thinking about.  In the UKU Level 1
coaching course we have further increased the amount of time we spend
discussing the coaches' role in promoting and protecting self-officiation
and SOTG.  I can't speak for the content of coaching courses in other
countries.  *

"...penalties for flagrantly breaching rules, sanctions against individual
players / teams for poor spirit, etc ..."

*This still leaves you with the problem of determining the process for
implementing that sort of penalty.  Who decides?  On what basis?  Do they
receive any training to help them practice watching a game for "flagrant
breaches"?  Do they receive any training for how to communicate with a
player or team that is accused of flagrant breaches?  *


>
> While Ultimate is primarily ruled by Spirit, I'm sure everyone has played
> a match with/against someone who didn't represent the ideals of Spirit. The
> issue I have with the current system is that lack of Spirit isn't recorded
> or reflected anywhere for future matches, and generally there isn't any
> feedback given to that player's captains / team. I've personally told
> people that they aren't welcome to play with my team again unless they
> respect SOTG.
> GA's / "observers" / referees take, at least some of, the responsibility
> for policing Spirit away from the players.
>

[SH] *OR the GA provides us with an *additional* mechanism to support
teams, players, coaches that need a bit of help.  Teams might need help for
all sorts of reasons - I'm not making a judgement about their morals.  *

*We'll be putting out a post soon about recruiting new members to the UKU
SOTG committee so please look out for that.*

*Si*





>
> Regards
> Nick Bond
> (me, not my team, or anyone else)
>
> On 26 February 2018 at 12:42, Simon Hill <si.h...@ukultimate.com> wrote:
>
>> I watched some of the games at WU24 in Perth and my impression was that
>> the GAs provided helpful support in some of the more difficult situations.
>> One of the games where the GA really helped IMO was between Germany and
>> Italy open teams - where they had an incredible (but also very tense)
>> sudden death point.  The main benefit - again just IMO - the GA provided
>> was by *indirectly* helping the teams to keep emotional responses to
>> contested calls under control, and I think that helped the two teams to
>> play a really fantastic and dramatic last point.  Congratulations to both
>> teams and the GAs in that match.
>>
>> For the folks here that are strongly against the GA programme: did you
>> watch some of those games in Perth?  What did you think of the impact of
>> GAs in those games?  Mostly I saw no impact (which is the ideal that the
>> GAs are hoping for).  And in a few cases I saw a very positive impact.
>>
>> Si
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Si Hill, UK Ultimate
>> si.h...@ukultimate.com
>> Tel: 0844 8045949 <0844%20804%205949>
>> Mob: 07802 311298
>> Skype: sihill22
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <
>> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed. Part of Spirit is respectful communication. We clearly all care.
>>> Please stay civil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some people
>>> are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not also
>>> continue it here on the mailing list?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic as
>>> well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in
>>> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show,
>>> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education is
>>> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use
>>> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and
>>> using budget money).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Liam, I

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Dominick]

Hello,

Apologies if I'm repeating someone else's comments, I only get the daily
digest of the mailing list so may be behind.  I have also taken a few days
to write this in an attempt to explain myself clearly.

I am an ultimate player and game adviser, having attended WU23 2015 and
WUGC 2016.  I was initially skeptical about the program and felt the best
way to understand it was to be a part of it.  That gave me full access to
all the information that was being provided and has helped me view the
program as a whole.

I have found it a very enjoyable and rewarding experience and have seen it
transfer over to my own play.  Far from making me stop respecting my
opponents perspective it has reminded me to take an emotional step away
from the play and try look clearly at the facts being presented.

As a game adviser my most enjoyable, and I think most significant
contributions, have been when I've encouraged players to give their
opponents time to speak, helped explain away language difficulties* and
when one player asked for my opinion on a play followed by their opponent
saying they have heard what's been said but they are still going to
make/contest a call.

As a game adviser I have zero power over a game of ultimate other than the
respect people put in my opinion and my ability to remind players, when
tired and caught up in a moment, to respect their opponents opinion as well.

Olivier - you talk about national federations talking with players and
clubs about their spirit and the possible need for penalties.  To me, this
is another type of third party attempting to influence a groups behaviour.
A difference that I see is that national federations would be getting
involved after the fact instead of when the incidents are happening.

To create a rather extreme example - a team gets consistently low spirit
scores on route to winning a national championship.  Based on the scores
received, their opponents all have a problem with how they behaved.  If
asking the national federation to address this, the conversation could be:
"You're spirit on route to winning the national title was bad.  If you
don't improve it next year, we may not let you enter the following year".
Thus the team will not face the penalties you considered until 2 years
later.  By that time all their opponents have been forced to endure their
poor spirit and could, justifiably, feel cheated out of a national title
two years in a row.

Using the same example with game advisers, we would be present during games
not just after the fact.  We would not have power to change the teams
attitude but, perhaps, as a neutral third party, the team might think twice
about how they are conducting themselves.  Perhaps they would be willing to
talk with us about some of the things we have seen during the game and,
perhaps, they would take our suggestions on things they could do
different.  Of course, in an ideal situation they would treat the
observations and suggestions of their opponents just the same but, if they
are consistently getting low spirit scores, it seems obvious they aren't
doing that.

Your proposed method of national federations addressing the matter after
the fact is still there.  Game advisers provide the possibility of
affecting the conduct as it's happening.

Thanks for reading my thoughts and opinion on this.


* I am a native English speaker who is very aware that he only speaks
English.  As a result I always try to make myself as clear and
understandable as possible and have developed a good understanding of what
people are trying to say in English when it is not their native language.
When opponents are attempting to talk, both in a foreign language,
confusion is common.  My experiences have shown me that helping with the
translations can be a big contribution to a calls resolution.


With regards,

Dominick Smyth,

DublinYouthUltimate.com 
domin...@irishultimate.com

086 150 73 33

-- 

With regards,

Dominick Smyth,

DublinYouthUltimate.com
domin...@irishultimate.com
086 150 73 33
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Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Nick Bond]

gt;> Please stay civil.
>>
>>
>>
>> Having said this, the essence of Mirko’s comment is correct. Some people
>> are not in Facebook and if the discussion started here, we not also
>> continue it here on the mailing list?
>>
>>
>>
>> I would be interested in getting some views from the EUF on the topic as
>> well as my initial question: what problem are you trying to solve in
>> Europe? This is clearly not North America and the EUF championships show,
>> IMHO, that GA’s are not (yet) needed in Europe. I think player education is
>> more effective, something that got completely lost in the US with the use
>> of Observers, as they are now the people that are maintaining Spirit (and
>> using budget money).
>>
>>
>>
>> Liam, I know it is tough dealing with multiple communication platforms,
>> but that is a sign of the times. I would be grateful if you (or others from
>> the WFDF) could also continue the conversation here.
>>
>>
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On
>> Behalf Of *Robert Jablko
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 26, 2018 10:38 AM
>> *To:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems there are a lot of emotions concerning the advisor topic, and
>> that should be discussed, here or somewhere else, but I strongy feel that
>> neither Liam or anybody else in ultimate deserves any kind of hostility.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Robse
>>
>> --
>>
>> Former chair of Rules and SOTG comitee, Germany
>>
>>
>>
>> 2018-02-26 11:22 GMT+01:00 Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>:
>>
>> are you deaf? can't you read? The dsicussion needs to take place on the
>> email group. This one.
>>
>> I think I made this clear.
>>
>> I am not gonna join any discussion on FB. Why? I made this clar as well.
>>
>> Keep the spirit!
>> Mirko, YeaHaw!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi Mirko,
>> >
>> > My personal oppinion is actually an email list and a Facebook group are
>> > both terrible places for a discussion. But thats just my opinion. I'm
>> not
>> > hosting or directing any type of discussion - I'm just happy and
>> > encouraging of one taking place and when I can I'll personally get
>> > involved
>> > with my experiences and POV.
>> >
>> > Where would you like a discussion to take place?
>> >
>> > Liam
>> >
>> > Just to make it really clear. I sent a message to several locations
>> about
>> > looking for support from TOCs. That started a conversation that I am not
>> > coordinating :) people are free to discuss however, wherever they like.
>> I
>> > also did not invent the GA system. I was not a part of the task force.
>> > There person who did, and was has opened a discussion on Facebook if
>> you'd
>> > like to join in.
>> >
>> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 10:04, Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> hello,
>> >>
>> >> I couldn't care lees how nice a message is. People were invited and -
>> >> tbh
>> >> - asked to continue the discussion on the actual email group.
>> >>
>> >> FB is the LAST tool to discuss anything meaningless.
>> >>
>> >> But instead you went there. The place of meaninglesness.
>> >>
>> >> Greetings from Berlin,
>> >>
>> >> Mirko, YeaHaw!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Hey Patrick,
>> >> >
>> >> > Ruben has offered to discuss things on the ED Facebook group. He
>> wrote
>> >> a
>> >> > nice messages there :)
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm afraid that my time is extreamly limited at the moment due to
>> work
>> >> and
>> >> > life commitments. Also Ruben knows more about the topic so he's a
>> good
>> >> > person to speak for/to.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'll reply as often as I can.
>> >> >
>> >> > If anyone asks a question directly to me, I'll obviously answer it
>> >> (given
>> >> > time).
>> >> >
>> >> > 

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Lukas Kahwe Smith]

> On 26 Feb 2018, at 11:38, Robert Jablko  wrote:
> 
> It seems there are a lot of emotions concerning the advisor topic, and that 
> should be discussed, here or somewhere else, but I strongy feel that neither 
> Liam or anybody else in ultimate deserves any kind of hostility.


+1

After some discussion on FB Olivier Browne summarized my points like this:

* you don't have any problem with the tasks that Game Advisors do

* you feel GAs are unneeded because their tasks can be performed by others

* you maybe like the idea of having a rules mentor floating around

* you feel the addition of GAs to the game brings confusion

* you don't like that games with GAs might make Ultimate look more like other 
sports

--

I would add a few notes here:

* I do have concerns over GAs stepping on the field, because I do not see a 
need for this (see my next point)

* I do have concerns over GAs adding a microphone to call discussions, even if 
they are only used for the broadcast and not in the stadium, as people will end 
up listening to the stream in the stadium and as a result the stadium audience 
will interact with the people making the call too much

* I do have concerns over GAs having the ability put ad hoc sanctions into 
place (though I am still not entirely in the loop how sanctions work)

--

Also I turned my question around and still have not received a sufficient 
answer:

Why was there even a need to introduce rules in the appendix for GAs, given 
that aside from stepping on the field and sanctions, everything was already 
possible before.

--

Finally I offered the following compromise:

* Remove GAs from the appendix

* Create a handbook for people motivated to do time-/scorekeeping, brining out 
of bounds discs to 3m of the field and being a rule knowledge able and 
observant spectator

* Offer training around this handbook, maybe even do a more advanced rule exam 
(maybe even in person)

* Keep working on getting players to do the signs

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org





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Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Olivier Cassart]

Hi Patrick and all,

About the only point on which we disagree, ;-).
You are right, advisors don't remove all the responsibility of the players
like it is the case with referees (or almost all, because even in
professional sports, players keep some responsibilities).

USAU observers remove more responsibility than the WFDF advisors.
I think that you accept that fact.
Altough, you know that some US players, but also some WFDF responsibles,
are ready to say that observers don't remove any responsibility, and that
observers are the guardian of the SOTG.

IMO, advisors remove a part of the responsibility (and yes, not all the
responsibility) of the players and of their coach(es), captain and SOTG
captain, because when win-at-all-costs attitudes happen, it should be their
role to correct those players' attitudes, and not the role of advisors or
any external official.
I mean on the field, because external officials, or TD's, may choose to
give a warning, or not invite again clubs or national teams if they
received too many times bad SOTG scores for example (I think that the UKU
is doing something close).
I believe in the judgement of the Community, and on self-refereed Ultimate
that worked pretty well in Europe for 40 years now.
SOTG (self-refereeing) is the core value of Ultimate.

IMO, the players who play the high level tournaments, have in general a lot
of experience of that kind of competition, of high level competition.
So, they should be able to respect the WFDF Spirit of the Game rule, that
asks players, even if highly competition is encouraged, to respect the
rules of the game, their opponents, and the simple joy of playing. And this
without an advisor to remind them...

My problem with advisors are not the advisors, but the fact that their role
should be taken by the players, the coach(es), the captain, and the spirit
captain.
Remember that it is because of players' attitudes that advisors were
introduced, after some problems at the World Games (the anti-chamber of the
Olympics).

If we need external officials to remind the players that first-of-all they
have to respect the SOTG rule, maybe that we should remove the SOTG
rule..., it would be more honest than introduce advisors.
Ok, this is a little provocative, but we have to recognise that in high
level Championships, the SOTG is sometimes set aside by some teams or
players, in the goal of a medal or a better final ranking.

We definitely (should) have better tools than advisors to struggle against
that attitude.

Advisors are really close to the old US passive observers.
If you see the evolution of the role of the US observers, years after
years, you will maybe realise that there is a clear danger to open the door
for external officials on the field, even passive.

To finish, I'm happy to see that the EUBCC 2018 will not have advisors,
like the WUBC 2017, and I hope that a lot of TD's in Europe will also
announce that their tournament/championship is still free of advisors.

Peace and Love,

Olivier

2018-02-21 12:23 GMT+01:00 Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <
patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org>:

> Interesting… Although in principle I share Olivier’s sentiment, and I just
> reached out to the WFDF to find out why they are doing this, I do want to
> correct one thing that Olivier wrote:
>
>
>
> > To accept advisors, removes the responsability of all the teams, of
> their SOTG captains, and IMO the basic foundations of self-refereed,
> self-officiated Ultimate.
>
>
>
> That is simply not true. Game advisors do not remove any responsibility.
> Players will stay responsible. They make the calls. They can ask for
> advice. GA’s not necessarily a bad thing.
>
>
>
> My reason to oppose Game Advisors is that I feel that, especially in
> Europe, and in especially in Beach Ultimate, there seems to be no need for
> it. So why do it?
>
>
>
> *(note, EBUCC will not have GA’s)*
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Patrick
>
> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org | +351 918 412 363 <+351918412363> |
> Skype: patrickvandervalk
>
> *www.EBUCC2018.org
> <http://t.sidekickopen08.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XYg2z8P5jN7d-dYbRbv2FVQJV2T56dLWFf8ZZ2yF02?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.EBUCC2018.org=6208734918606848=146ce415-ae59-40f4-af37-d1caff83acf5>
> - European Beach Ultimate Club Championships (26-28 Oct, 2018) *
>
> *[image: EBUCC-Multicolor-500px]*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On
> Behalf Of *Olivier Cassart
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 21, 2018 10:32 AM
> *To:* oliver browne <ojhbro...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de; Liam Kelly <l...@liam-kelly.co.uk>
> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors
>
>
>
> Hi European Ultimate players and especially all the TD's in Europe,
>
> All the t

Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Olivier Cassart]

Hi Liam,

To reply to your question, the fact that you are member of the Game Advisor
Committee of the WFDF, and a WFDF advisor, is the more relevant for me.

You, and the WFDF have the right to publish on the Eurodisc mailing-list,
or on the Ultimate Players in Europe FB page, like everybody, so the
players from Europe should also have the right to reply by using the same
tools of communication.

Maybe that you are too young in the European Ultimate scene, but FYI, you
are the 1st ever to write on the ED mailing-list and on the UPE FB page,
that those tools of communication are not the good settings to express
opinions about Ultimate.
Everybody has the right to express his/her opinion by using those tools of
communication.
The fact that it is permitted to everybody to post on it is the proof that
transparency is something important in European Ultimate.

So, I will continue to openly express my opinion.

Cordially,

Olivier




2018-02-21 13:25 GMT+01:00 Liam Kelly :

> Hi Olivier Cassart, ED, and anyone else interested in this topic.
>
> Good to see the debate is alive and well. Something I would fully
> encourage, but perhaps not in this setting.
>
> I see a great deal of misconception in your comments, which is something I
> look forward to talking about.
>
> Perhaps a Reddit AMA or something along those lines. I'm open to ideas.
>
> In short: keen and encouraging of a discussion, disagreement and different
> opinions and perspectives - as SOTG says.
>
> Please do get in touch directly and we can set something up.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> --
>
> Sincerely, Liam Kelly
>
> Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129 <+44%207595%20618129>
> Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam
> --
> Make Liverpool,
> 34 Regent Street
> ,
> North Docks,
> Liverpool L3 7BN
>
> *What's relevant to you?*
> CEO - Make Liverpool (www.makeliverpool.com)
> Chair - Baltic Triangle, Liverpool (http://baltictriangle.co.uk/)
> Coach Educator for UK Ultimate and World Flying Disc Federation
> Game Advisor Committee for WFDF
>
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Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Patrick van der Valk (BULA)]

Hi Liam, mailing lists are still a good way to communicate and (non-European) 
Reddit trolls are much less present. Also, this list has a lot of Europeans who 
care about the topic. Should everyone change their normal way of communicating 
because of this topic? Why not in this setting?

Respectfully

Patrick

From: Liam Kelly [mailto:l...@liam-kelly.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 12:26 PM
To: Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org>
Cc: Olivier Cassart <cassart.oliv...@gmail.com>; eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de; 
oliver browne <ojhbro...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

Hi Olivier Cassart, ED, and anyone else interested in this topic.

Good to see the debate is alive and well. Something I would fully encourage, 
but perhaps not in this setting.

I see a great deal of misconception in your comments, which is something I look 
forward to talking about.

Perhaps a Reddit AMA or something along those lines. I'm open to ideas.

In short: keen and encouraging of a discussion, disagreement and different 
opinions and perspectives - as SOTG says.

Please do get in touch directly and we can set something up.

Kind regards.

--

Sincerely, Liam Kelly


Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129
Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam
--
Make Liverpool,
34 Regent Street,
North Docks,
Liverpool L3 7BN

What's relevant to you?
CEO - Make Liverpool (www.makeliverpool.com<http://www.makeliverpool.com/>)
Chair - Baltic Triangle, Liverpool (http://baltictriangle.co.uk/)
Coach Educator for UK Ultimate and World Flying Disc Federation
Game Advisor Committee for WFDF
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Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors

[Olivier Cassart]

 Hi European Ultimate players and especially all the TD's in Europe,
All the tournaments that you organised (high level or not) were without
advisors, .

I hope that you won't be the TD's who will open the door for advisors in
private tournaments in Europe.
I hope that you will refuse, like the Windmill did ! (cf. Ultimate Players
in Europe FB page)

For the TD's or players who think that it can be a good idea, I want to ask
how much money are they ready to spend to have advisors on the field in the
future (to help the players respect the rules...) ?
Because if the WFDF will pay for the advisors and for the advisors clinics
at the beginning, of course that advisors will have a cost for tournament
organisers and so for the players, if advisors are integrated into some
European Ultimate tournaments.

The fact that it was mentioned that advisors are especially useful for
quarters>semis>final, is IMO a proof that it is accepted by the WFDF that
players will maybe cheat more if it is a quarter, semi or final game...
This is sad because it is totally in contradiction with the SOTG rule, the
1st rule of the WFDF rules book (Highly competitive play is encouraged, but
should never sacrifice the mutual respect between players, adherence to the
agreed-upon rules of the game, or the basic joy of play.)

If some players have win-at-all-costs attitudes in some more "important"
games, it is the role and the responsibility of their team, of their SOTG
captain, of their captain, of their coaches, or of their team-mates, to ask
their own players to respect the principles of the SOTG rule, and not to
ask external advisors to do it.

To accept advisors, removes the responsability of all the teams, of their
SOTG captains, and IMO the basic foundations of self-refereed,
self-officiated Ultimate.

European Ultimate players should not accept advisors.
Say no to them !

European Ultimate Federation should not accept that the WFDF tries to
impose us advisors, at least before having a discussion with all the
European National Federations.
European Ultimate should be proud to always keep Ultimate self-refereed
since its beginning in Europe.

Peace and Love,

Olivier Cassart (Mooncatchers Juniors coach and ex-Belgium U20 coach
between 2003 and 2012)


2018-02-20 2:14 GMT+01:00 oliver browne :

>
> Hi Euro Disc, and specifically TDs / TOCs of competitive European
> tournaments,
>
> WFDF is looking to put on at least one game advisor training weekend in
> 2018.
>
> For this we need a relatively competitive tournament to work in
> partnership with and are looking for suitable TDs / TOCs to contact us with
> expressions of interest.
>
> We will try to deliver the training at zero cost to the tournament.  We
> will need to access a classroom space for a session on the first day to be
> able to deliver some of the training. In return we would provide Game
> Advisors for games across the weekend; any that you as TDs felt might
> benefit from a Game Advisor, and especially the later bracket games
> (Quarters > Semis > Finals).
>
> Once we have identified one, or more, suitable locations to run the
> clinics we will send more information out for people interested in becoming
> Game Advisors.
>
> Please get in touch by email to:
>
> l...@liam-kelly.co.uk
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Oliver Browne, sent on behalf of:
>
> Liam Kelly
> WFDF Game Advisor Committee
>
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