Re: [EVDL] hub motor for 20" wheels

[Michael Ross via EV]

I have one (BikeE) laced radial on the non-drive side and it is fine. I was
misremembering that it was radial on both sides. The drive side on both my
BikeEs are 1 cross pattern and the one without radial lacing is 1 cross on
both sides.  It may be necessary to use a drill to angle the rim holes
better to avoid bending the spokes and stressing the nipples (which break
under much side loading).

The hub motor I am familiar with is a MAC (handy because of internal
gearing) and it is a large diameter hub.  there are probably smaller, lower
torque producing motors.  It is torque you are after in the long run. You
want to get some help starting up on inclines.

I was looking at putting a Schmidt hub inside a front 16 inch wheel, but I
chickened out. Lacing might be very tough.

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> ken via EV wrote:
> >> I have a Bike E with 20" back wheel. Where can I find a reasonably
> >> priced wheel that's designed to be efficent for that RPM / 20- 25 mph
> >> and 36 volts.
>
> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
>> Better check me, I get 335 RPM at 20mph and 419 RPM at 25 mph
>> 36 volts will get you less torque than 48 volts. Probably not a problem
>> with a light bike like a Bike E.
>>
>> It will be quite tricky to lace such a wheel up as the spokes will have to
>> be very short.  Consider radial lacing (no crossing spokes).
>>
>
> I didn't think you could use radial spokes with a powered wheel (can't
> handle the torque).
>
> Honestly, I think you would be better off rigging up a mid drive.
>>
>
> I agree. I also have a Bike-E, and have been thinking of ways to E-bike
> it. But it has a 7-speed rear hub. You'd lose that if you go to a powered
> wheel, which could make it pretty hard to ride under pedal power.
>
> I have a Giant LaFree E-bike. Its motor has a small sprocket with a
> freewheel on it, which drives the chain. The rear wheel does not have to be
> modified at all, and the motor benefits from whatever gearing you have on
> the back wheel. This setup has worked very well. The only challenge would
> be to find an appropriately sized freewheel sprocket for the motor.
>
> I also have a couple of "Warrior" E-bike friction-drive motor setups. They
> aren't as efficient, but you can lift them off the tire when not needed to
> have zero effect on efficiency. Yes, they slip when wet and can cause
> faster tire wear; but it's a mighty easy system to put together in a hurry
> for testing/evaluation.
>
> I have a conventional 26" bike with a front hub motor. It works, but I
> really don't like it. It degrades handling, and the front wheel is inclined
> to slip if you apply enough torque to be more than a gentle thrust. I think
> a front-drive setup would be even worse on a Bike-E.
>
> --
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
> -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[paul dove via EV]

I have seen very little evidence of such. Most people are still driving their 
conversions BMS  or  not. My vehicle has over 20,000 miles on it with no sign 
of capacity loss. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 13, 2016, at 3:50 PM, Lee Hart  wrote:
> 
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Why would you say that? Li FePO4 has one of the largest cycle life of any of 
>> them.?2000+ cycles. The Mitsubishi  i-MiEV uses LiFePO4 cells. Maybe go with 
>> a larger Ah capacity to increase current limits. They only do 3C continuous. 
>> So that would be 180 Amps for a 60Ah cell.
> 
> LiFePO4 has the largest *claimed* cycle life. Whether it will actually 
> deliver is unknown. Life is limited by quality control (often poor) and abuse 
> (bad charging, excessive discharges, poor or no BMS, etc.)
> 
> -- 
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[matt lacey via EV]

The 42 x 60Ah thundesky pack in my vectrix was originally installed in 2010
It's done 105'000km, and around 1100 cycles equivalent
capacity is down to 45Ah

The e-rider's lack of BMS is likely what killed the first 4 cells

For your application, the e-rider continuous discharge rate may be a little 
high for good service life (stay below 1C continuous for best results)

Your best bet would be either the CALB CAM 72Ah cells, or using leaf modules
- Original Message - 
From: "Willie2 via EV" 

To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?



On 08/13/2016 07:32 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
None of the Chinese LifePO4 cells will last long. How many electric cars 
use

that chemistry?


YMMV

I have a ~10 year old ThunderSky LFP pack that has given me more than 50k 
miles; about 5 of the 48 cells have been replaced.  The pack is still at 
around 80%.  In contrast, my Leaf gave me ~25k miles and was below 70% in 
only two years.  ThunderSky did not have a useful warranty.  Nissan 
refused to honor their warranty.  I'd rather deal with ThunderSky than 
Nissan.


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Re: [EVDL] This is one future for mass produced electric vehicles.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

A tandem three wheeler like the Greenspeed.  Low the the ground and good aero.  
First dam off the front with a good fairing then build a frame work to support 
the panels.  At this point if it is stiff enough to resist the wind, ala the 
Elf,one might think about some sort of under cover and doors.  The doors might 
be hard  Lawrence Rhodes.. 
http://ropeandcanvas.blogspot.com/2015/02/greenspeed-gtt-2s-recumbent-tandem.html

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> It's a matter of money.

You can be pretty tricky to build it on a budget. Dave Cloud, Cedric 
Lynch, and Jerry Dycus have all built examples of very efficient 
vehicles on tiny budgets. They may look a bit funky, but it's a 
prototype! :-)

> I am thinking of using a tandem recumbent bicycle with 20" wheels.

Tandem? A 3-wheeler?


> This should support 750watts of solar.

Have you thought about how to keep the PV panels from acting like a sail 
and tipping it over? A friend of mine built a PV recumbent trike, and 
had problems with wind.

-- 
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
 -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] hub motor for 20" wheels

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/13/2016 04:29 PM, ken via EV wrote:

   I have a Bike E with 20" back wheel . Where can I find a reasonably
priced wheel thats desgined to be effeient for  that RPM / 20- 25 mph
and 36 volts.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=20%22+ebike+conversion+kit
http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=20%22+ebike+conversion+kit

Here is a 36v rear:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-48V-500W-20-Threaded-Rear-Wheel-Ebike-Conversion-Kit-Sine-Wave-Controller-/331747947601?hash=item4d3db7f451:g:LRgAAOSw7FRWVXcc


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[EVDL] hub motor for 20" wheels

[ken via EV]

  I have a Bike E with 20" back wheel . Where can I find a reasonably
priced wheel thats desgined to be effeient for  that RPM / 20- 25 mph
and 36 volts.

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Re: [EVDL] This is one future for mass produced electric vehicles.

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 8/13/2016 11:29, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

It's a matter of money.  I am thinking of using a tandem recumbent bicycle with 
20" wheels.  This should support 750watts of solar.  With a 7.5kw battery it 
will charge in 10 sunny hours.  As a moped class vehicle it will have a very long 
range.  I will probably make use of Zzipper fairing molded into the sides and 
bottom.  This will be moderately expensive.  Under 10k.


And how would you manager to mount 750 watts of solar on a tandem 
recumbent bike?  That's something on the order of 40 or so square feet.


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395


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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[Lee Hart via EV]

paul dove via EV wrote:

Why would you say that? Li FePO4 has one of the largest cycle life of any of 
them.?2000+ cycles. The Mitsubishi  i-MiEV uses LiFePO4 cells. Maybe go with a 
larger Ah capacity to increase current limits. They only do 3C continuous. So 
that would be 180 Amps for a 60Ah cell.


LiFePO4 has the largest *claimed* cycle life. Whether it will actually 
deliver is unknown. Life is limited by quality control (often poor) and 
abuse (bad charging, excessive discharges, poor or no BMS, etc.)


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] This is one future for mass produced electric vehicles.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

It's a matter of money.


You can be pretty tricky to build it on a budget. Dave Cloud, Cedric 
Lynch, and Jerry Dycus have all built examples of very efficient 
vehicles on tiny budgets. They may look a bit funky, but it's a 
prototype! :-)



I am thinking of using a tandem recumbent bicycle with 20" wheels.


Tandem? A 3-wheeler?


This should support 750watts of solar.


Have you thought about how to keep the PV panels from acting like a sail 
and tipping it over? A friend of mine built a PV recumbent trike, and 
had problems with wind.


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] This is one future for mass produced electric vehicles.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

My electric recumbant trike is now on sale on Craigs list.  It seemed like
a fantastic idea for my 15 mile commute with 12 miles of it on a
rail-to-trail flat run.

But I only did it once.  I was scared to death on the 3 miles of suburban
roads to get to the traiil.  Looking right and left, all I could only see
were hubcaps.  My turning radius was worse than a prius.  It was a major
evolution to get up from the bikes 10" off the pavement bucket seat.
Futher with THREE wheels you stand a 100% chance of hitting every bump
there is. (compared to one wheel line of a conventional bike where you can
miss anything you want).

Bottom line, if anything even the slightest unsafe cropped up, I was going
to hit it and be dead meat.  The experience was nothing like riding a
normal bike where my  line of sight was 5 feet HIGHER and my center of
gravity was ABOVE the hood of any car I might hit (and I could roll over
it).  I could also turn on a dime, jump off the bike, duck, swerve, or
otherwise have a good cance of missing a hazard.

Nope.  Made no sense (to me). ... but only after I bought it and rode it
once.

Bob, WB4APR


On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> David,
>
> It's a matter of money.  I am thinking of using a tandem recumbent bicycle
> with 20" wheels.  This should support 750watts of solar.  With a 7.5kw
> battery it will charge in 10 sunny hours.  As a moped class vehicle it will
> have a very long range.  I will probably make use of Zzipper fairing molded
> into the sides and bottom.  This will be moderately expensive.  Under 10k.
> Lawrence
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

[63urban via EV]

I don't think this is the case. Nuclear plants which in North America we have 
plenty need to put out a base amount but they can also be used very effectively 
for peak power needs.  It will be a very long time before there is so much 
solar ( which produces during peak) that we put the nuclear facilities in North 
America out of business.  They will continue  to produce the base requirements 
at night. My hope is that there will soon be no need for fossil fuel plants. I 
don't know how it is in the u.s. but in canada we are currently being sold a 
bill of goods with turbines. (Someone's getting rich and it's not the rate 
payers or the land owners) at any rate wind adds well to the shoulder times as 
they at least here seem to generate early morning and late night most 
consistently. 
Nick


Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

 Original message 
From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Date: 2016-08-13  12:37 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: Robert Bruninga <bruni...@usna.edu>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots 

Robert,

You're probably right on the peak power rates. But I think the power 
companies have a legitimate concern. That doesn't justify stonewalling.

The issue I see is what happens when solar generation is insufficient. 
If residents are installing solar panels but no backup supply, then they 
are relying on the grid to generate power when they cannot. That means 
the utilities have to build full capacity power generation regardless if 
it gets used regularly or hardly at all.

Currently, they use much of their capacity all the time and, thus, can 
recoup their investment over a large degree of usage. Alternatively, if 
they have to build the same capacity and recoup their investment just 
during occasional peak usage, I suspect their peak rates will need to be 
a lot higher than they currently are.

That said, such an arrangement, with mitigation, might not be so bad. It 
would encourage people to install backup storage and reduce the 
utility's need to build out.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 13-Aug-16 9:26:59 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

>The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair 
>good
>deal  at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil 
>fuel
>industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar.
>
>I just had an emiphany...
>
>We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities 
>since
>they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in 
>fat,
>they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak
>demand.  And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland.  All
>customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY 
>EVERYONE
>$1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR 
>DAYS.
>This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days...
>
>So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry 
>that
>solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the
>profits and taking them straight to the bank.
>
>But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities 
>for
>their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their 
>storage
>system.  So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil 
>fuel
>industry truing to burn every last drop.
>
>HERE IS MY EPIPHANY:
>
>In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING 
>plants
>that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK
>solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from
>solar still at the net rate of ten cents.  No wonder they feel 
>threatened.
>Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty 
>fossil
>fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty
>peakers.  And that is exactly as it should be.  We need them and their
>dirty power off the grid.  The sooner the better.
>
>Sure we need peaking plants,  But we do not need to cry over them when
>solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of 
>their
>dirty costs.  So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, 
>it
>is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other 
>rate
>payers" to divide and conquer us.
>
>Bob Bruninga, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[paul dove via EV]

Why would you say that? Li FePO4 has one of the largest cycle life of any of 
them.?2000+ cycles. The Mitsubishi  i-MiEV uses LiFePO4 cells. Maybe go with a 
larger Ah capacity to increase current limits. They only do 3C continuous. So 
that would be 180 Amps for a 60Ah cell.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 13, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Cruisin via EV  wrote:
> 
> None of the Chinese LifePO4 cells will last long. How many electric cars use
> that chemistry?
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Which-one-china-lifepo4-60-Ah-tp4683272p4683273.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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[EVDL] semi off topic

[Willie2 via EV]

Since David hasn't started playing whack-a-mole on this, I'll pretend 
that it is semi on topic.  It seems reasonable to discuss the source of 
energy used to drive our EVs.


I visited Las Vegas (for the first time) this past December.  I was 
struck by two situations that offended my delicate Texas sensibilities:


1) The acceptance, even embracing, of criminality.  One example:

http://themobmuseum.org/


2) The recent Nevada state government rejection of net metering. 
Established and thriving roof top solar installers were driven out of 
business in Nevada.  In Texas, net metering is accepted with little to 
no opposition from any quarter.  All the electric providers I know of 
provide attractive incentives to install personal PV systems.  My 
provider gives full credit for energy temporarily stored on the grid; 
that amounts to personal production being worth about $.11/kwh.  At the 
end of the year, if you are a net producer, you are paid a wholesale 
rate for your excess production; that is currently about $.05/kwh.  I'm 
not familiar with the details but Nevada residents now have to pay a 
surcharge of about $50 a month to push energy to the grid. Perhaps 
someone from Nevada can illuminate.


Perhaps the two items are related.

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Re: [EVDL] This is one future for mass produced electric vehicles.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

David,

It's a matter of money.  I am thinking of using a tandem recumbent bicycle with 
20" wheels.  This should support 750watts of solar.  With a 7.5kw battery it 
will charge in 10 sunny hours.  As a moped class vehicle it will have a very 
long range.  I will probably make use of Zzipper fairing molded into the sides 
and bottom.  This will be moderately expensive.  Under 10k.  Lawrence
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Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/13/2016 12:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

The grid will actually need less spinning reserves with solar than they
have now.  When we think solar is "variable" then we are ignoring the fact
that when a coal or  nuke or gas plant drops off line due to any number of
*routine* causes, the drop on the grid woiuld be catastrophic.  Hence, the
grid already maintains spinning reserves at least equal to their biggest
single plant at any time.

Solar *never* goes down like that.  Solar is quite predictable and on
partly cloudy days the clouds are not everywhere at once.  So the spinning
reserve argument does not hold water when you compare the backup needed for
a centralized plant compared to distributed solar.  Its just obfuscation.
An interesting situation developed in Texas a few years ago.  There was 
legislative stimulus to build wind and a very large industry developed 
in west Texas.  At the time it was building out, the "grid", ERCOT, 
estimated it could accommodate no more than about 5% wind energy due to 
the unpredictability.  Since, the peak wind has, at times, been around 
15%.  Accommodating that relatively large fraction seems to be due to 
high quality forecasts.  I believe they need something like an hour to 
bring natural gas generation up to speed to fill a shortage.  The 
infrastructure to get the power from west Texas to the consuming areas 
in the central and eastern areas of the state was built out.  It turns 
out, the wind produces mostly in the evenings and nights and the 
transmission infrastructure is largely unused mid-day.  Now, there is 
developing a large west Texas solar industry which already has the 
transmission infrastructure in place.


Oops!  My 15% number is a year old:
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ercot-wind-energy-provided-record-45-of-electricity-on-dec-20/412241/
Also interesting reading:
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ercot-wind-solar-nearly-two-thirds-new-capacity-in-2016/415715/


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Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The grid will actually need less spinning reserves with solar than they
have now.  When we think solar is "variable" then we are ignoring the fact
that when a coal or  nuke or gas plant drops off line due to any number of
*routine* causes, the drop on the grid woiuld be catastrophic.  Hence, the
grid already maintains spinning reserves at least equal to their biggest
single plant at any time.

Solar *never* goes down like that.  Solar is quite predictable and on
partly cloudy days the clouds are not everywhere at once.  So the spinning
reserve argument does not hold water when you compare the backup needed for
a centralized plant compared to distributed solar.  Its just obfuscation.

Bob

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> You're probably right on the peak power rates. But I think the power
> companies have a legitimate concern. That doesn't justify stonewalling.
>
> The issue I see is what happens when solar generation is insufficient. If
> residents are installing solar panels but no backup supply, then they are
> relying on the grid to generate power when they cannot. That means the
> utilities have to build full capacity power generation regardless if it
> gets used regularly or hardly at all.
>
> Currently, they use much of their capacity all the time and, thus, can
> recoup their investment over a large degree of usage. Alternatively, if
> they have to build the same capacity and recoup their investment just
> during occasional peak usage, I suspect their peak rates will need to be a
> lot higher than they currently are.
>
> That said, such an arrangement, with mitigation, might not be so bad. It
> would encourage people to install backup storage and reduce the utility's
> need to build out.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 13-Aug-16 9:26:59 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
>
> The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair good
>> deal  at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil fuel
>> industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar.
>>
>> I just had an emiphany...
>>
>> We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities since
>> they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in fat,
>> they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak
>> demand.  And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland.  All
>> customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY EVERYONE
>> $1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR DAYS.
>> This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days...
>>
>> So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry that
>> solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the
>> profits and taking them straight to the bank.
>>
>> But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities for
>> their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their
>> storage
>> system.  So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil fuel
>> industry truing to burn every last drop.
>>
>> HERE IS MY EPIPHANY:
>>
>> In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING plants
>> that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK
>> solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from
>> solar still at the net rate of ten cents.  No wonder they feel threatened.
>> Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty fossil
>> fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty
>> peakers.  And that is exactly as it should be.  We need them and their
>> dirty power off the grid.  The sooner the better.
>>
>> Sure we need peaking plants,  But we do not need to cry over them when
>> solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of
>> their
>> dirty costs.  So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, it
>> is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other rate
>> payers" to divide and conquer us.
>>
>> Bob Bruninga, WB4APR
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/
>> 20160813/10f2361b/attachment.htm>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

[robert winfield via EV]

Bob, you may be interested in this study of batteriesThe Economics of Battery 
Energy Storage

  
|  
|   
|   
|   ||

   |

  |
|  
|   |  
The Economics of Battery Energy Storage
 Much attention has been paid to batteries' impressive cost declines. But a new 
RMI report shifts the focus t...  |   |

  |

  |

 




  From: Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 12:26 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots
   
The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair good
deal  at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil fuel
industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar.

I just had an emiphany...

We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities since
they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in fat,
they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak
demand.  And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland.  All
customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY EVERYONE
$1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR DAYS.
This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days...

So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry that
solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the
profits and taking them straight to the bank.

But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities for
their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their storage
system.  So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil fuel
industry truing to burn every last drop.

HERE IS MY EPIPHANY:

In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING plants
that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK
solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from
solar still at the net rate of ten cents.  No wonder they feel threatened.
Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty fossil
fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty
peakers.  And that is exactly as it should be.  We need them and their
dirty power off the grid.  The sooner the better.

Sure we need peaking plants,  But we do not need to cry over them when
solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of their
dirty costs.  So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, it
is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other rate
payers" to divide and conquer us.

Bob Bruninga, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/13/2016 07:32 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

None of the Chinese LifePO4 cells will last long. How many electric cars use
that chemistry?


YMMV

I have a ~10 year old ThunderSky LFP pack that has given me more than 
50k miles; about 5 of the 48 cells have been replaced.  The pack is 
still at around 80%.  In contrast, my Leaf gave me ~25k miles and was 
below 70% in only two years.  ThunderSky did not have a useful 
warranty.  Nissan refused to honor their warranty.  I'd rather deal with 
ThunderSky than Nissan.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Robert,

You're probably right on the peak power rates. But I think the power 
companies have a legitimate concern. That doesn't justify stonewalling.


The issue I see is what happens when solar generation is insufficient. 
If residents are installing solar panels but no backup supply, then they 
are relying on the grid to generate power when they cannot. That means 
the utilities have to build full capacity power generation regardless if 
it gets used regularly or hardly at all.


Currently, they use much of their capacity all the time and, thus, can 
recoup their investment over a large degree of usage. Alternatively, if 
they have to build the same capacity and recoup their investment just 
during occasional peak usage, I suspect their peak rates will need to be 
a lot higher than they currently are.


That said, such an arrangement, with mitigation, might not be so bad. It 
would encourage people to install backup storage and reduce the 
utility's need to build out.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 13-Aug-16 9:26:59 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Solar haves and have nots

The argument that solar people (many with EV's) are getting an unfair 
good
deal  at the expense of other rate payers is hogwash, yet the fossil 
fuel

industry lobbyists and big money are promoting it to fight solar.

I just had an emiphany...

We all know that home solar is actually a big win to the utilities 
since
they are getting our solar power at the standard 10 cent rate when in 
fat,

they are paying 5 to ten times that during the daily peak to meet peak
demand.  And the proof is in every electric bill in Maryland.  All
customers have smart meters, and the utility says THEY WILL PAY 
EVERYONE
$1.50 PER KWH for every KWH THAT THEY DO NOT USE ON THESE PEAK SOLAR 
DAYS.

This proves they are paying more than $1.50 per kWh on those days...

So do not be fed the BS from the utilities and fossil fuel industry 
that

solar is "costing them money" when in fact they are skimming off the
profits and taking them straight to the bank.

But solar customers understand that this net profit to the utilities 
for
their power is what they give up in order to have the grid as their 
storage
system.  So it is a win-win for both (and a lose-lose for the fossil 
fuel

industry truing to burn every last drop.

HERE IS MY EPIPHANY:

In the past, it was the Fossil fuel people and their dirty PEAKING 
plants

that were getting paid ten to twenty times the normal rate during PEAK
solar days, and yet the utilty now is getting the same peak power from
solar still at the net rate of ten cents.  No wonder they feel 
threatened.
Notice it is not the other rate payers losing money it is the dirty 
fossil

fuel peak generator suppliers that see the ten-to-1 loss in their dirty
peakers.  And that is exactly as it should be.  We need them and their
dirty power off the grid.  The sooner the better.

Sure we need peaking plants,  But we do not need to cry over them when
solar can provide power to the grid at the same time for under 10% of 
their
dirty costs.  So it is not the other rate payers that are complaining, 
it
is the dirty fossil fuel peaking plans using the good name of "other 
rate

payers" to divide and conquer us.

Bob Bruninga, WB4APR
-- next part --
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<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160813/10f2361b/attachment.htm>

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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/13/2016 07:32 AM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

None of the Chinese LifePO4 cells will last long. How many electric cars use
that chemistry?
My perception is that LFP is not very popular due to relatively low 
energy density.  Also, I think LFP may be a little higher cost.  I think 
Nissan went with cheaper LiMn (with disastrous results) because of 
cost.  LiMn seem to have a life of around 800 cycles while LFP can go to 
1000-4000.



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Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[Cruisin via EV]

None of the Chinese LifePO4 cells will last long. How many electric cars use
that chemistry?

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Which-one-china-lifepo4-60-Ah-tp4683272p4683273.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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[EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[Artur Kubik via EV]

Hi,
I have china e-bike "Zapp" (www.erider.cn), 2,5 kW / 60V engine and 19s 
(40 Ah) LiFePO4, without BMS. Oryginal cells (from 2007) were made by 
Thundersky.
After about a year of use, the 4 cells (from 19) were dead and I stop to 
use e-bike.
Now I started to "repair" this e-bike. I order the "Active BMS" with 1,8 
A max. balancing current (www.freegopower.com).
Next, I start to checking old cells and I found another 8 cells from 
Thundersky looks dead.
I woudlike to buy new LiFePO4 cells but I have a problem - which china 
company makes a bit better cells than Thundersky?

I check the china webpages and I found a few cheap offers:
- OSN Power (www.osnpower.com) - USD 48 for 66 Ah cell
- HAOYU ENERGY - (www.haoyupower.com) - USD 57 for 60 Ah cell
- A Power (www.aspowerbattery.cn) - USD 65,5 for 60 Ah cell
- LIAO - Hangzhou Liao Technology Co., Ltd. 
(http://hzliao.en.made-in-china.com/) - USD 66 for 60 Ah cell

- GLB - GREEN LAND BATTERY (www.glbbattery.com) - USD 74 for 60 Ah cell
- Frey - Jiangsu FREY New Energy (http://www.chinafrey.com) - USD 74 for 
60 Ah cell

Did anyone knows LiFePO4 batteries from these companies?
Any other tips or suggestions?
regards
Artur

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