Re: [EVDL] Tesla funds research into Li ion testing at Dalhousie Uinversity

[Michael Ross via EV]

More news on subject:

Fortune (JB Straubel and Jeff Dahn photo op)
http://fortune.com/2015/06/17/meet-teslas-new-weapon-a-battery-scientist/

The Financial Post
http://business.financialpost.com/news/transportation/tesla-motors-inc-turns-to-dalhousie-university-professor-for-help-with-battery-technology

Quartz
http://qz.com/431718/tesla-has-nabbed-preeminent-battery-researcher-and-shareholders-love-it/



On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:57 PM, Michael Ross <michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> ​"​
> Dahn Lab Begins 5-year Tesla Partnership
>
> June 8, 2016
> NSERC, Dalhousie University and Tesla Motors have established the
> NSERC/Tesla Canada Industrial Research Chair that Jeff Dahn will hold from
> June 8, 2016 to
> ​ ​
> June 7, 2021. It is possible that the Chair will be renewed in 2021. The
> goals of the Chair are to develop lithium ion batteries with longer
> lifetime, higher energy density and lower cost. As Dahn says, "Our goal is
> to do something useful, not publish papers in Nature and similar journals
> ​.​
> "
>
> https://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/news.html
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile and
> Google Phone
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> <michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
>
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
<michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Cruisin via EV]

Not true, we charge to 5vdc per cell all the time for dragsters and don't
have any degradation or fires.

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[EVDL] Tesla funds research into Li ion testing at Dalhousie Uinversity

[Michael Ross via EV]

​"​
Dahn Lab Begins 5-year Tesla Partnership

June 8, 2016
NSERC, Dalhousie University and Tesla Motors have established the
NSERC/Tesla Canada Industrial Research Chair that Jeff Dahn will hold from
June 8, 2016 to
​ ​
June 7, 2021. It is possible that the Chair will be renewed in 2021. The
goals of the Chair are to develop lithium ion batteries with longer
lifetime, higher energy density and lower cost. As Dahn says, "Our goal is
to do something useful, not publish papers in Nature and similar journals
​.​
"

https://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/news.html

-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile and
Google Phone

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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Michael Ross via EV]

This sounds sort of like advice for a Prius.  Toyota's nickel metal hydride
packs are a different kettle of fish entirely and they can be "refreshed."
but not by the procedure mentioned. I don't know if new Priii are
different, could be they are using Li.  I am out of touch.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Or you can follow the advice of an engineer from Tennessee that Tom True
> talked
> to -
> "The final recommendation from him was to discharge the pack to 10 miles
> or so
> in range (according to the instrumentation), and fully recharge about once
> a
> month to "refresh" the battery"
> Which totally contradicts what the engineer said in the sentence before, "
> Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would
> typically
> brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could experience a
> thermal
> even ( Thermal runaway & fire)."
>
> Confusing, right?
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> via EV
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 1:34 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity
> >
> > Thanks folks
> >
> > So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to 4.05vpc
> and
> battery
> > university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I should change
> my
> charge cut off at
> > 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles typical.  Plus since balancing
> occurs
> all the time there's
> > no need to charge at 100% except for long trips Best regards Mark Sent
> from my
> iPhone
> > ___
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> racing
> at NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile and
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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Cruisin via EV]

The total charge of 4.2vdc is not going to reduce the life span of the
batteries unless left at that voltage for a long period of charge. Tesla's
are charged using the super charger to maximum of 4.2vdc, but the
recommendation is to drive it as soon as possible so as to not leave the
voltage at the maximum. Chances are you wont own the car when the batteries
are starting to degrade anyway.

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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Michael Ross via EV]

Can you share link to the webpage you are referencing?

I don't believe you can measure voltage and calculate such a thing.
Voltage is simply not a very good way to determine SOC.

Charging to 100% is not going to cause a "thermal event." High temperatures
caused by large discharge (which lowers the SOC) is one way to get them
hot.  Some chemistries (early Leaf for example) deteriorate at an
accelerated rate when charged to a high SOC, AND exposed to too high an
ambient temperature - such as gridlock in Phoenix where they experienced
poor life performance of early Leafs.

Pay attention to the "AND."  100% SOC or temperature alone may not damage a
li ion cell.  But so much of thise depends on thigs we don't know, can't
know, are told incorrectly, and so on.

You pretty much should use whatever procedure the EV manufacturer says to
use for charging a pack.  Don't try to second guess them. You are unlikely
to accumulate the necessary information to do it in a more effective and
rational way. In numerous cases with older BEVs the manufacturers are
working from their own poorly conceived testing and basic understanding.
Presumably newer BEVs are better, but who knows.  I trust Tesla, but not
sure about anyone else.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Mark Hanson via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Thanks folks
>
> So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to 4.05vpc
> and battery university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I
> should change my charge cut off at 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles
> typical.  Plus since balancing occurs all the time there's no need to
> charge at 100% except for long trips
> Best regards
> Mark
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile and
Google Phone

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<michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
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Re: [EVDL] Should I buy...?

[Cruisin via EV]

If you are going to buy a car, the first criteria is that you like the car
more than the others you looked at. Too many buy because its cheap, bad
decision. Who wants to drive a cheap car they don't like, a fool.

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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Hi Mike etc,

 

The cell voltage longevity data is from the previous email I sent to the list 
regarding www.batteryuniversity.com data (can’t remember right now, wrote down 
the article number when I sent it from my iPhone).  

 

I was questioning the 2013 Leaf manual assertion that charging the battery to 
80% resulted in a longer lasting battery, looking for *real* data (since they 
dropped the requirement in 2014 – apparently for marketing MPC reasons).  But 
the Battery University data says that charging to a slightly lower final cell 
voltage of 4.05V is 1200-2000 cycles (*much* more than 4.1V = 600-1000 cycles, 
4.2V = 300-500 cycles) and since the Leaf actively balances, not just at 100% 
it seems that the Nissan assertion that *80% charging* (especially when doing 
short distances like my son does daily at 16 miles) makes sense.  Cor I think 
mentioned that at “100%” for the Leaf is 4.12V so that’s in the 600-1000 
cycles.  Si *if* you believe the data charging at 80% (2K cycles) will result 
in a battery that will last *twice* as long as one that is charged to 100% (1K 
cycles).  (May not be exactly twice since the 80% cycles are, well 80%).

 

 

Have a renewable energy day,

 

Mark

 

Mark E. Hanson

184 Vista Lane

Fincastle, VA 24090

540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell

REEVA: community service RE & EV project club

Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)

UL Certified PV Installer

My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 

 

 

 

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 7:16 PM
To: Mark Hanson; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

 

Can you share link to the webpage you are referencing?

 

I don't believe you can measure voltage and calculate such a thing.  Voltage is 
simply not a very good way to determine SOC.

 

Charging to 100% is not going to cause a "thermal event." High temperatures 
caused by large discharge (which lowers the SOC) is one way to get them hot.  
Some chemistries (early Leaf for example) deteriorate at an accelerated rate 
when charged to a high SOC, AND exposed to too high an ambient temperature - 
such as gridlock in Phoenix where they experienced poor life performance of 
early Leafs.

 

Pay attention to the "AND."  100% SOC or temperature alone may not damage a li 
ion cell.  But so much of thise depends on thigs we don't know, can't know, are 
told incorrectly, and so on.

 

You pretty much should use whatever procedure the EV manufacturer says to use 
for charging a pack.  Don't try to second guess them. You are unlikely to 
accumulate the necessary information to do it in a more effective and rational 
way. In numerous cases with older BEVs the manufacturers are working from their 
own poorly conceived testing and basic understanding.  Presumably newer BEVs 
are better, but who knows.  I trust Tesla, but not sure about anyone else.

 

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Mark Hanson via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

Thanks folks

So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to 4.05vpc and 
battery university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I should 
change my charge cut off at 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles typical.  
Plus since balancing occurs all the time there's no need to charge at 100% 
except for long trips
Best regards
Mark
Sent from my iPhone
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-- 

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

 <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> Thomas A. 
Edison

 

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

Warren Buffet

 

Michael E. Ross

(919) 585-6737 Land

 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> (919) 576-0824 Mobile and 
Google Phone

 

michael.e.r...@gmail.com





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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity (not guessgauge)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

So, how does the car computer know when the battery is discharged? I can 
understand the estimated range might be affected by not doing a full 
discharge occasionally. But what about the bars or other state of charge 
reading? Is that determined also by an amp-hours in, amp-hours out 
comparison? If so, and it shows 1 bar left, how do you know if you can 
keep driving for a while before the voltage gets too low and it shuts 
off?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 05-Oct-16 2:28:33 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity (not guessgauge)


Depends on what you mean.  If you mean to never charge until you always
get down to 10%, then that is a bad idea.  But if you are meaning to
always charge (top-off) after every use, and then *occasionally* do the
discharge to 10mi followed by a full charge, then absolutely, that is a
best way to do it.

The frequent topping off maintains the longest possible battery life, 
but

at the "cost" of slowly having the car computer loose track of actual
capacity since it rarelyl sees a deep discharge and so loses track of 
whre
the "bottom" really is.That's why the recommendation to 
occasionally

discharge down to 10% so that the CPU re-learns where the bottom is and
can re-calibrate the GUEGAUGE...

I had this discussion with a Nissan Battery engineer who just happened 
to

sit next to me on the plane.  He said the reason the car MANUAL says to
not frequently top-off but to only charge when the battery gets low is 
not

so much to protect the life of the battery, but so that their PUBLIC
RELATIONS staff is not deluged with onwers complainng all the time that
the guessgauge told them 62 miles when they only got 61, etc...

By making sure the users were charging from a low state, the guessgauge
can do a more accurate job. (at the cost of long term life)...

Bob, WB4aPR


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 5:15 PM
To: 'Mark Hanson'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

Or you can follow the advice of an engineer from Tennessee that Tom 
True
talked to - "The final recommendation from him was to discharge the 
pack
to 10 miles or so in range (according to the instrumentation), and 
fully

recharge about once a month to "refresh" the battery"
Which totally contradicts what the engineer said in the sentence 
before, "

Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would
typically brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could
experience a thermal even ( Thermal runaway & fire)."

Confusing, right?

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719



 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson
 via EV
 Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 1:34 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

 Thanks folks

 So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to
 4.05vpc and

battery

 university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I should
 change my

charge cut off at

 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles typical.  Plus since balancing
 occurs

all the time there's
 no need to charge at 100% except for long trips Best regards Mark 
Sent

 from my

iPhone

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Re: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Bob,
I believe at 50 or 55 MPH constant level road you see about 12kW draw.
Since the pack is almost 400V, this means about 30A.
EVs typically are driving for about 1-2% of the time, for the rest they
are charging or resting.
But this is irrelevant - there is no relation between driving current
and balancing,
as long as you are not trying to *change* the balance while driving (Lee
has a balancer
that will prop up a weak battery while driving, this is certainly not
the intention of the Leaf BMS).

The Leaf BMS is only trying to slowly adjust differences between cells
in the pack due to imbalance in self-discharge.
Good cells have almost no self-discharge. I have a pack of LiFePO4 that
were used and some cells were abused.
Few of them died, the survivors have a ratio 1:2 in self-discharge rate.
It is very small still, only a few mA
I estimate that some of the cells are 2mA, others up to 4mA. So the 10mA
of the Leaf BMS would only need to balance during 20% of the time to
remove the 2mA difference using its 10mA shunts.
Since the Leaf BMS is always on, it can balance 24/7/365 so a small
balance current adds up and as long as the *difference* in
self-discharge between cells is always less than 10mA, it should be able
to keep the pack in check.
If not, then it is time to get a new pack. From what I have seen, the
cells age quite equal in the same pack.

Hope this clarifies.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: Robert Bruninga [mailto:bruni...@usna.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 12:25 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery
University

Wow!

> the Leaf BMS will still be balancing the cells[all the time], 
> [because] it has only 10mA balancing capacity...

What then is the nomimal discharge current on level ground at 50 MPH?
My SWAG guess might be 10 amps?  That means only about 0.1% balancing
capability?  Maybe Im missing something...
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery
University

Mark,
The Leaf charges to approx 4.12V as "100%" (LeafSpy shows this around
actual 90% real SoC - not always consistent, I have seen 89% and over
91%) and to approx 4.05V as "80%" (again, sometimes closer to 4.04 and
sometimes closer to 4.06V) The lowest that I have ever seen my Leaf SoC
was just above 15% real SoC on LeafSpy with the cells around 3.7V, the
Leaf itself indicates this as empty, so I believe that the top and
bottom
10+% are not used by the Leaf to avoid the extremes where the internal
resistance of the cells rises and heat develops faster, leading to
faster degradation.

NOTE that even when discharged to 50%, the Leaf BMS will still be
balancing the cells, it is always on as it has only 10mA balancing
capacity so it is balancing all the time as long as the 12V battery is
connected.
I have even seen it occasionally balancing a cell with SoC below 20% but
it will be much more aggressive at high SoC.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 11:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: L. David Roper
Subject: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery
University

Hi folks
It looks like in NMC lithium charging to 4.2 vpc is 300-500 cycles or to
4.1 is 600-1000 cycles or 4.0 is 2400-4000 cycles.  Certainly
overcharging is bad but I've seen other studies on high mileage Leafs in
England that were 100% charged that showed little degradation after 50k
miles. Just trying to figure based on real data if charging to 80% which
loses the balancing function or going to 100% on my Leaf on each cycle
is best. I assume Nissan isn't overcharging their cells on 

Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity (not guessgauge)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Depends on what you mean.  If you mean to never charge until you always
get down to 10%, then that is a bad idea.  But if you are meaning to
always charge (top-off) after every use, and then *occasionally* do the
discharge to 10mi followed by a full charge, then absolutely, that is a
best way to do it.

The frequent topping off maintains the longest possible battery life, but
at the "cost" of slowly having the car computer loose track of actual
capacity since it rarelyl sees a deep discharge and so loses track of whre
the "bottom" really is.That's why the recommendation to occasionally
discharge down to 10% so that the CPU re-learns where the bottom is and
can re-calibrate the GUEGAUGE...

I had this discussion with a Nissan Battery engineer who just happened to
sit next to me on the plane.  He said the reason the car MANUAL says to
not frequently top-off but to only charge when the battery gets low is not
so much to protect the life of the battery, but so that their PUBLIC
RELATIONS staff is not deluged with onwers complainng all the time that
the guessgauge told them 62 miles when they only got 61, etc...

By making sure the users were charging from a low state, the guessgauge
can do a more accurate job. (at the cost of long term life)...

Bob, WB4aPR


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 5:15 PM
To: 'Mark Hanson'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

Or you can follow the advice of an engineer from Tennessee that Tom True
talked to - "The final recommendation from him was to discharge the pack
to 10 miles or so in range (according to the instrumentation), and fully
recharge about once a month to "refresh" the battery"
Which totally contradicts what the engineer said in the sentence before, "
Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would
typically brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could
experience a thermal even ( Thermal runaway & fire)."

Confusing, right?

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson
> via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 1:34 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity
>
> Thanks folks
>
> So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to
> 4.05vpc and
battery
> university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I should
> change my
charge cut off at
> 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles typical.  Plus since balancing
> occurs
all the time there's
> no need to charge at 100% except for long trips Best regards Mark Sent
> from my
iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Or you can follow the advice of an engineer from Tennessee that Tom True talked
to -
"The final recommendation from him was to discharge the pack to 10 miles or so
in range (according to the instrumentation), and fully recharge about once a
month to "refresh" the battery"
Which totally contradicts what the engineer said in the sentence before, "
Explaining that if you let the battery pack get below 10%, it would typically
brick (not allow a charge), and above 90%, that your could experience a thermal
even ( Thermal runaway & fire)."

Confusing, right?

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 1:34 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity
>
> Thanks folks
>
> So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to 4.05vpc and
battery
> university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I should change my
charge cut off at
> 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles typical.  Plus since balancing occurs
all the time there's
> no need to charge at 100% except for long trips Best regards Mark Sent from my
iPhone
> ___
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[EVDL] Best charge rate for longevity

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Thanks folks

So if the Leaf charges at the 100% setting to 4.12vpc and 80% to 4.05vpc and 
battery university says max life of 2k cycles is at 4.00vpc then I should 
change my charge cut off at 80% for daily short trips of 15 miles typical.  
Plus since balancing occurs all the time there's no need to charge at 100% 
except for long trips 
Best regards
Mark
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Wow!

> the Leaf BMS will still be balancing the cells[all the time],
> [because] it has only 10mA balancing capacity...

What then is the nomimal discharge current on level ground at 50 MPH?  My
SWAG guess might be 10 amps?  That means only about 0.1% balancing
capability?  Maybe Im missing something...
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery
University

Mark,
The Leaf charges to approx 4.12V as "100%" (LeafSpy shows this around
actual 90% real SoC - not always consistent, I have seen 89% and over
91%) and to approx 4.05V as "80%" (again, sometimes closer to 4.04 and
sometimes closer to 4.06V) The lowest that I have ever seen my Leaf SoC
was just above 15% real SoC on LeafSpy with the cells around 3.7V, the
Leaf itself indicates this as empty, so I believe that the top and bottom
10+% are not used by the Leaf to avoid the extremes where the internal
resistance of the cells rises and heat develops faster, leading to faster
degradation.

NOTE that even when discharged to 50%, the Leaf BMS will still be
balancing the cells, it is always on as it has only 10mA balancing
capacity so it is balancing all the time as long as the 12V battery is
connected.
I have even seen it occasionally balancing a cell with SoC below 20% but
it will be much more aggressive at high SoC.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 11:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: L. David Roper
Subject: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery
University

Hi folks
It looks like in NMC lithium charging to 4.2 vpc is 300-500 cycles or to
4.1 is 600-1000 cycles or 4.0 is 2400-4000 cycles.  Certainly overcharging
is bad but I've seen other studies on high mileage Leafs in England that
were 100% charged that showed little degradation after 50k miles. Just
trying to figure based on real data if charging to 80% which loses the
balancing function or going to 100% on my Leaf on each cycle is best. I
assume Nissan isn't overcharging their cells on each cycle.
It looks from the Leaf spy that most cells are at 4.0 volts at 100%
charge.  Does anyone have EOC data on the Leaf?   My son drives it daily
15 miles round trip and then plugs in at home to 100% Thanks mark
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_
batteries


Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mark,
The Leaf charges to approx 4.12V as "100%" (LeafSpy shows this around
actual 90% real SoC - not always consistent, I have seen 89% and over
91%) and to approx 4.05V as "80%" (again, sometimes closer to 4.04 and
sometimes closer to 4.06V)
The lowest that I have ever seen my Leaf SoC was just above 15% real SoC
on LeafSpy with the cells around 3.7V, the Leaf itself indicates this as
empty, so I believe that the top and bottom 10+% are not used by the
Leaf to avoid the extremes where the internal resistance of the cells
rises and heat develops faster, leading to faster degradation.

NOTE that even when discharged to 50%, the Leaf BMS will still be
balancing the cells, it is always on
as it has only 10mA balancing capacity so it is balancing all the time
as long as the 12V battery is connected.
I have even seen it occasionally balancing a cell with SoC below 20% but
it will be much more aggressive at high SoC.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hanson via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 11:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: L. David Roper
Subject: [EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery
University

Hi folks
It looks like in NMC lithium charging to 4.2 vpc is 300-500 cycles or to
4.1 is 600-1000 cycles or 4.0 is 2400-4000 cycles.  Certainly
overcharging is bad but I've seen other studies on high mileage Leafs in
England that were 100% charged that showed little degradation after 50k
miles. Just trying to figure based on real data if charging to 80% which
loses the balancing function or going to 100% on my Leaf on each cycle
is best. I assume Nissan isn't overcharging their cells on each cycle.
It looks from the Leaf spy that most cells are at 4.0 volts at 100%
charge.  Does anyone have EOC data on the Leaf?   My son drives it daily
15 miles round trip and then plugs in at home to 100%
Thanks mark
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_
batteries


Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Russco Manual Needed

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mike Brown via EV wrote:

I am looking for a manual for a Russco SC-18-120 or SC-18-120 SO
charger. Photocopy would be fine. I would be happy to pay postage &
copying, or even the loan of a manual that I could copy myself and
return. Please respond off list if you can help.


What do you need to know? I have a Russco SC-18-120-SO, and have the 
manual somewhere (though I didn't find it with a quick search). I even 
went so far as to trace out the circuit, so I could understand how it 
worked and fix it.


--
How many slams in an old screen door? Depends how loud you shut it.
How many slices in a loaf of bread? Depends how thin you cut it.
How much good inside a day? Depends how good you live 'em.
How much love inside a friend? Depends how much you give 'em.
-- Shel Silverstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Hi folks
It looks like in NMC lithium charging to 4.2 vpc is 300-500 cycles or to 4.1 is 
600-1000 cycles or 4.0 is 2400-4000 cycles.  Certainly overcharging is bad but 
I've seen other studies on high mileage Leafs in England that were 100% charged 
that showed little degradation after 50k miles. Just trying to figure based on 
real data if charging to 80% which loses the balancing function or going to 
100% on my Leaf on each cycle is best. I assume Nissan isn't overcharging their 
cells on each cycle. It looks from the Leaf spy that most cells are at 4.0 
volts at 100% charge.  Does anyone have EOC data on the Leaf?   My son drives 
it daily 15 miles round trip and then plugs in at home to 100%
Thanks mark
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries


Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] Russco Manual Needed

[Mike Brown via EV]

I am looking for a manual for a Russco SC-18-120 or SC-18-120 SO 
charger.  Photocopy would be fine.  I would be happy to pay postage & 
copying, or even the loan of a manual that I could copy myself and 
return.  Please respond off list if you can help.


Thanks!

Mike Brown

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[EVDL] Answering Mark's question about Battery Monitoring

[Steven Lough via EV]

Sorry for the big POST but my e-mail to Mark from Jay D. bounced.  My 
old e-mail address for him must not be current.


- - - - - -

It's a small world.  I remember you from the EVDL years ago. Yes, I 
highly recommend the i-MiEV.  It's the little car that can, with more 
effective cargo space than most small "SUVs" and has a much 
better-engineered battery than Nissan.
My 2012 still yields well over the factory ratings, with an 84-mile 
estimate on the excellent Range Remaining gauge just a couple of weeks 
ago as I crossed the 61,000 mile mark.  The Mitsu RR meter is more 
accurate than the LEAF guessometer, but is only based on the most recent 
15 miles of driving.


For observing battery health and all other metrics on the car, there is 
a great free Android utility called CANIon,

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=emobility.canion=en
Here's more info about using it than we can EVer hope to digest.
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25=1762

A paid app by the name EVBatMon is iPhone compatible, and it is the best 
way to get an accurate capacity rating other than the Mitsubishi MUT-III 
tool.  CANion does a good job of reporting individual cell voltages and 
showing the pack's balance, but consensus has BatMon ahead on measuring 
capacity.
 http://www.evpositive.com/evbatmon-for-i-miev.html 
<http://www.evpositive.com/evbatmon-for-i-miev.html>


You have to be careful which OBD-II adaptor you purchase, as there are 
different compatibility lists for CANion and BatMon.


Regards,

Jay Donnaway
Certified Energy Manager- Association of Energy Engineers
Resource Conservation Manager
Sumner School District
1202 Wood Ave, Sumner WA 98390
253-891-6018
cell 253-314-3830
jay_donna...@sumnersd.org <mailto:jay_donna...@sumnersd.org>

--
Steven S Lough
PRESIDENT EMERITUS
Seattle EV Association
Web:  www.seattleeva.org
206 524 1351

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Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

[Peri Hartman via EV]

VAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV 
drag

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merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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is merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82

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Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

[Thos True via EV]

Unacceptable granularity.
>>>  Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
>>>  After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in
>>>
>>>  that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
>>>  explanation could there be?
>>>
>>>  Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
>>>  of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
>>>  dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>>>
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>>>
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>>>  group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
>> merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

[Peri Hartman via EV]

ars lost so they no longer qualified unless they 
would
 again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does 
not

 disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
 6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
 nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
 right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity 
degradation

 suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
 I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
 about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.

 Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but 
I

 highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
 we'll see.

 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless

 office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

 http://www.proxim.com

 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential 
and
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you 
received

 this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
 unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
 this message is prohibited.


 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie2 via 
EV

 Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is 
the

 question

 On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
 > on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to 
approx


 > 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
 > where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
 > promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar 
around

 60%
 > capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the 
warranty

 > limits for time and mileage.)
 When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
 instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected 
to


 see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
 came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable 
granularity.

 Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
 After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things 
in


 that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
 explanation could there be?

 Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and 
speak

 of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
 dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.

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Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

[Thos True via EV]

ly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
> we'll see.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
> question
>
> On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> > on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx
>
> > 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point
> > where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they
> > promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
> 60%
> > capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty
> > limits for time and mileage.)
> When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
> instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to
>
> see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
> came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
> Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.
> After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in
>
> that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
> explanation could there be?
>
> Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
> of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
> dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.
>
> ___
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> racing at NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161005

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2011-Leaf-ca-EV-proves-gt-Great-usefulness-Less-maintenance-td4683974.html
EVLN: 2011 Leaf.ca EV proves> Great usefulness, Less maintenance
Canada's first Nissan Leaf electric car drive remains committed after five
years
The Nissan Leaf has proven that electric cars can handle the rigors of daily
driving just as well as internal-combustion models. At the same time, Leaf
EVs have ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Electric-VW-Concept-noise-for-2020-Paris-fr-show-td4683975.html
EVLN: Electric VW Concept (noise) for 2020 @Paris.fr show
VW is calling this Paris Motor Show debut "as revolutionary as the Beetle
was seven decades ago."

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BMW-charge-net-nz-installing-100-L3-DC-EVSE-across-NZ-v-td4683976.html
BMW,charge.net.nz installing 100 L3 DC EVSE across NZ (v)
Currently there's only 30 ... Electric car charging stations ... "The people
need have no fear of range anxiety ... BMW said the partnership with
national charging network Charge Net NZ would enable electric vehicle (EV)
drivers to travel right across New Zealand through ...




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.0catch.com}

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http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EV-newswire-posts-for-20161005-tp4683977.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that isthequestion

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Let's try that *with* the link:
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-mil
es/ 


Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that
isthequestion

Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year) Note that
Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi on their cars each year,
so the 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain would give them ~3
million miles under warranty...
Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including an early
front motor replacement under warranty.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
thequestion

Willie,
Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.

Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but I
highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
we'll see.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx

> 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point 
> where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they 
> promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
60%
> capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty 
> limits for time and mileage.)
When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to

see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.  
After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in

that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
explanation could there be?

Even more astonishing is 

Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is thequestion

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Here is the article about the 200k mi Tesla (in 1 year)
Note that Tesloop is actually aiming at putting 400k mi
on their cars each year, so the 8 year warranty on battery
and drivetrain would give them ~3 million miles under warranty...
Their website has a blog with a few of the details, including
an early front motor replacement under warranty.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:06 PM
To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is
thequestion

Willie,
Not dynamically, just a one-time upgrade (dealer visit required).
Many Leaf owners who lost the 4th bar and thought they qualified for the
warranty battery replacement were miffed to see the dealer really
enforcing the Nissan requirement that the warranty will only be honored
after the mandatory re-calibration of the 12 battery bar gauge. Most
owners found out that after re-calibration their earlier 4 bar loser no
longer showed 4 bars lost so they no longer qualified unless they would
again see 4 bars lost on the re-calibrated gauge. The first bar does not
disappear until 15% is lost and each subsequent bar should stand for
6.25% so in theory you need a battery degraded to just over 66% of
nominal capacity to qualify if the gauge will indeed drop to 4 bars
right at that point. But reports I have seen of Ah capacity degradation
suggest that the loss of the 4th bar happens later.
I found it significant that Leafs can lose more than 40% capacity in
about 50k mi while some Tesla drops only 6% in 200k mi.

Of course this is only one sample with a specific usage pattern, but I
highly doubt an expansion of the samples will give different results,
we'll see.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie2 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] To fully charge or not to fully charge that is the
question

On 10/04/2016 12:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> on the battery as the Leaf *does* degrade its battery by 40% to approx

> 60% capacity in approx 50k mi in warmer climates (that is the point 
> where Nissan gives a warranty battery replacement, even though they 
> promised 70% but re-calibated the battery to lose the 4th bar around
60%
> capacity and triggering the warranty if it occurs within the warranty 
> limits for time and mileage.)
When I first got my Leaf, I was astonished at how crappy the
instrumentation is/was.  Coming from the conversion world, I expected to

see, or find out, how much energy went into the battery and how much
came out.  Instead, I had these twelve "bars". Unacceptable granularity.
Later, I found the "bars" were not even of equal value.  
After some pondering, I came to the conclusion that Nissan did things in

that way to hide information from their customers.  What other
explanation could there be?

Even more astonishing is how Leaf owners accept the situation and speak
of almost meaningless "bars".  I'm not surprised to learn that Nissan
dynamically recalibrates "bars" to manage their warranty threshold.

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