[EVDL] What is a compliance car? : ... Bolt named top car ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Chevy-Bolt-named-top-car-in-N-America-tp4685382p4685412.html
]

That post and its responses are really about what 'we each' think what a
'compliance car' is. 

I had this thought over a week ago when a news item tried to say the Bolt
was not a compliance car based on how many EVs GM 'had to' produce vs how
many more GM said they were going to make.

I know this topic could open a 'can of worms', but I think the definition of
compliance car needs to be re-evaluated. What was a compliance car in the
1990's and 2000's, is much different than today.

A week ago I did a simple search: 
https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+compliance+car
 It shows there are a lot of different opinions out there. Some by those
that would always like there automaker company to be in the best light, by
others that actually would be driving those EVs for the next 6+ years.

Not unlike so many automakers, part of GM's advertising budget is to use the
press to manipulate public opinion. GM know's that what was said previously,
can be easily reversed as they believe the public has a 'short memory' and
that they, GM, 'know what is best' (not the buying public).

The search
https://www.google.com/search?q=bolt+electric+compliance+car
 shows how upset the media was with GM's announcement that they will only
sell to CA and OR first. Those are two states GM wants mandate credits so as
to sell ice. 

That shift from telling the public Gm was going to sell the BOLT to everyone
before the Bolt went into production, and doing an about-face (changing the
sales rules) when the Bolt did go into production to favor GM's needs (not
the consumer's), smells of compliance car, and does not bode well for how
much the consumer feels GM will have their back (care about the consumer).

Yet, as I have posted, GM can be manipulated to free some Bolt EVs up for
Donald's buddies, and to any other region that is beneficial to GM (Bolts to
NYC, +more).

I posted a news item that stated that Canadians could register to buy a Bolt
EV, but actual deliveries to Canadians would be much later.

I have to let you all know, that there were many GM -pr- noise items I
passed on (did not post to the evdl), that were only GM investment
promotional, but later were found to be a (non-committal) commitment to
produce 200+mi Bolt EVs. This was much the same with the European version of
the Bolt: Opel Ampera-e. Now that the Bolt is in production, GM feels
happier holding back on its Bolt EV sales, than satisfying consumer demand
(another point defining a compliance car).

IMO as a future production EV buyer is, what defines a compliance car has
several dependencies (there will be several things to look at & to decide
on). Not what items are important to an automaker, but what items are
important to the EV owner& driver.

Much has changed since 2010, but for a long time, the Fiat 500e, Ford Focus
Electric, GM's Chevy Spark EV, Smart ED, and several other EVs, were a
product that could be leased or purchased, but with only a minimal effort
put into the EV's use, or upgrades each year by the manufacturer (i.e.: it
isn't until now that Ford's next-gen Focus EV will offer L3 DC charging,
etc.). Upgrades that the production EV leaders (i.e.: Leaf, etc.) were
already offering. So, a compliance car does not make an effort to keep up
with the competition, akin (like) what is done with ice sales.

Now that Spark EV is set to end production because the Bolt EV is its
replacement, where does that leave Spark EV owners? How long will their GM
support last, and will the cost of that support go up over time as dealers
may consider Spark EV an out-of-date antique.

Buying a production EV meant you were locked into no support if you made
upgrades yourself. Anyone buying a used 2012 Leaf with only a L2-3kW
on-board charger and no L3 DC port means you are stuck (no upgrades
possible). If the upgrades the consumer wants is not offered in next year's
model (like what the i-Miev did, same product year year), the consumer is
stuck between a rock and an hard place to get an EV that fits their needs
(Today, if you can not afford a Tesla, then a Leaf is your only up-to-date
production EV choice).

Time will tell how many GM Bolt EVs are produced and sold to the public year
after year (that excludes the ones made and sold to Lyft). And 'if' GM does
regular updates to each year's model (same as they do for their ice models). 

Perhaps that is a stumbling point the media does not see nor dwell on:
automakers go out of their way to offer an 'improved' model for next year as
an incentive to encourage sales. Automakers with a compliance car do not
offer such annual improvements.

? So, how do you define 'compliance car' ?




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{brucedp.neocities.org}

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View this message in context: 

Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1231c physical disassembly (China and US Coal)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Folks, sorry to be a nag, but please try to stay on topic.  No doubt China's 
power generation is an important topic, but unless you connect it with EVs, 
please discuss it in offlist (private) email.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1231c physical disassembly (China and US Coal)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes, but...

What brings about *change* is not how big the problem is, but how rapidly
one is committed to fixing it.  No one disagrees that China is the worst
polluter and the US is #2, but my point is that China is changing to
Renewable energy at TWICE our rate with Twice our investment and with an
estimated 13 million job effort.  While we ignore the potential future jobs
and market with a new emphasis on obsolete dirty coal...   and folding back
our iniciatives on new clean energy...  Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 6:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1231c physical disassembly - cut the rear panel
or not?

> From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
>
>> CFBs and LEDs are inherently more complex and costly than old
>> incandescents. But we've "externalized" those costs (and their carbon
>> footprint and energy of production) to China, which is using cheap
>> coal for goods production ...
>
> The excuse of "china" and their coal consumption is so 2008 legacy and
> triggers a response...

Look, I’m not making this up! Google knows (with 2016 datelines):

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=how+fast+is+china+building+coal+plants

While it is true that coal-fired electricity peaked in China in 2014, that
appears to have been due to global recession, rather than policy. They
continue to build new coal plants, albeit at a slower rate.

But my go-to source for such things is Gail Tverberg, who has been invited
to teach energy and resource depletion issues in China. She claims reliance
on cheap domestic coal is more important than even cheap labour in making
China a manufacturing powerhouse.

https://ourfiniteworld.com/?s=china

Bottom line: let’s not get too cocky about such things. Yea, I like LEDs,
and have recently ordered a bunch of them, but at best, they are slowing
down our overshoot, not stopping it, and they are certainly not
“sustainable.”

Anyway, my apologies for taking this off the list subject, into a
more-controversial subject.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1231c physical disassembly - cut the rear panel or not?

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
> 
>> CFBs and LEDs are inherently more complex and costly
>> than old incandescents. But we've "externalized" those costs
>> (and their carbon footprint and energy of production) to China,
>> which is using cheap coal for goods production ...
> 
> The excuse of "china" and their coal consumption is so 2008 legacy and
> triggers a response...

Look, I’m not making this up! Google knows (with 2016 datelines):

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=how+fast+is+china+building+coal+plants

While it is true that coal-fired electricity peaked in China in 2014, that 
appears to have been due to global recession, rather than policy. They continue 
to build new coal plants, albeit at a slower rate.

But my go-to source for such things is Gail Tverberg, who has been invited to 
teach energy and resource depletion issues in China. She claims reliance on 
cheap domestic coal is more important than even cheap labour in making China a 
manufacturing powerhouse.

https://ourfiniteworld.com/?s=china

Bottom line: let’s not get too cocky about such things. Yea, I like LEDs, and 
have recently ordered a bunch of them, but at best, they are slowing down our 
overshoot, not stopping it, and they are certainly not “sustainable.”

Anyway, my apologies for taking this off the list subject, into a 
more-controversial subject.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt named top car in N. America

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The only rumors I heard that the Bolt might be a compliance car were 
when they started selling in California. But they are expanding to other 
locations as promised.


-- Original Message --
From: "Roger Stockton via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc:
Sent: 10-Jan-17 3:14:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt named top car in N. America


Dannyterhaar wrote:

 > And despite the fact that GM specifically said this was a 
compliance car

 > and had no intention of selling this in other states.
 >

 Can you point me to a public posting of GM where they announced that 
?
 I really tried to find it , but it's not popping up in google or 
other

 search engines for me.


I think the fact that the Bolt is available in Canada pretty much 
debunks any claim that GM intends[ed] it to be only a compliance car:




Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt named top car in N. America

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Dannyterhaar wrote:

> > And despite the fact that GM specifically said this was a compliance car
> > and had no intention of selling this in other states.
> >
> 
> Can you point me to a public posting of GM where they announced that ?
> I really tried to find it , but it's not popping up in google or other
> search engines for me.

I think the fact that the Bolt is available in Canada pretty much debunks any 
claim that GM intends[ed] it to be only a compliance car:



Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt named top car in N. America

[dannyterhaar via EV]

Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list wrote
> And despite the fact that GM specifically said this was a compliance car
> and had no intention of selling this in other states.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>


Can you point me to a public posting of GM where they announced that ?
I really tried to find it , but it's not popping up in google or other
search engines for me.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170110

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

GM treats the Bolt as if it is something totally new with the use of
many alu body panels and high strength steel alloy, but most body shops
have already plenty experience...


There have been lots of cars with aluminum body panels, not just the 
Leaf. As I recall, the Honda Insight, Ford F-150 pickups, Land Rovers, 
Audi A8, Mercedes, and others have all had them.


--
Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
implement, test, and execute!
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] (we too): Seattle buying 100+ Proterra EV buses

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Seattle-buying-100-Proterra-EV-buses-tp4685411.html
]

I am glad Seattle got e-buses, but it made me think: didn't the SF-CA bay
area (especially Silicon Valley) get e-buses? Below is a dated item I posted
where some were thinking about it:

[dated]
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-e-bus-company-targeting-SF-CA-Peninsula-tp4681674.html
EVLN: e-bus company targeting SF-CA Peninsula
Apr 24, 2016 ... SamTrans is still years away from implementing electric
buses, however. Electric buses tend to cost about twice as much as a 40-foot
diesel bus, which cost around $508,000, SamTrans spokeswoman Tasha
Bartholomew said ...

[defined] samtrans.com  SamTrans is a public transport agency in and around
San Mateo, California, in the San Francisco Bay Area. It provides bus
service throughout San Mateo County and into portions of San Francisco and
Palo Alto.


 So, to clarify for non-locals, SamTrans is only half of the public bus
picture (from the northern part of Silicon Valley northward). From Palo Alto
(Santa Clara county) on south is handled by VTA ...


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/VTA-Lands-25M-Federal-Grant-to-Buy-Electric-Buses-389559952.html
VTA Lands $2.5M Federal Grant to Buy Electric Buses
Aug 8, 2016 - The Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority was awarded
nearly $2.5 million to purchase a new fleet of zero-emissions buses as well
as ...
...
http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-jose/2624747-silicon-valley-vta-will-soon-get.html
Silicon Valley VTA will soon get Proterra electric buses ...
Aug 4, 2016 - I was wondering when this was going to happen...apparently VTA
does plan to purchase Proterra fully electric buses! They are the same size
...
...
http://www.fleetsandfuels.com/fuels/evs/2016/08/proterra-lands-eight-fta-low-no-winners/
Proterra Lands Eight FTA Low-No Winners
Aug 2, 2016 ... Proterra emphasized VTA, the Santa Clara Valley
Transportation Authority in California, “as the Silicon Valley’s transit
agency expects to roll out five 40-foot Catalyst XR buses ...


 So, hopefully soon, VTA's e-buses will be on Silicon_Valley-CA streets too. 
Here is a link of the Proterra e-bus models with specs:
https://www.proterra.com/products/catalyst-40ft/


BTW, not too far from Facebook HQ (Menlo Park, next to Palo Alto) is one of
too-many building booms (like we really need more expensive density of
people, housing, and offices - not!). Across the street from a not-too-old a
Porsche dealership built on cheaper salty-gray-silt bayland soil, is new
high density housing construction. Which is around the corner an old bus
maintenance shop that services the hybrid Stanford Marguerite Shuttle buses
(StanfordU's own bus service). According to the wiki page on Marguerite:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Marguerite_Shuttle
Marguerite is the free shuttle service Stanford University offers to its
students, faculty, staff, and the general public to get around campus or
from campus to some off-campus locations such as [Shopping Centers,
Hospitals], Stanford Linear Accelerator (SLAC) ... 

Marguerite has also acquired hybrid and all-electric buses (total fleet as
of June 2015 was 79 buses of which 13 were all-electric and 5 were hybrid).

The Marguerite shuttle is named for the four horse bus also called
Marguerite run by Jasper Paulsen in the earliest days of the university; it
initially cost 10 cents for students, 15 cents for others though the fare
was later raised to 25 cents for everyone.
...
[links
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1890-dollars-in-2016?amount=0.25
$0.25 in 1890 → $6.32 in 2016

http://www.vta.org/getting-around/fares
Single Ride - $2 ...


images
https://transportation.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/inline-images/margueritte%20wagon.jpg
(4horse bus)  The first Marguerite shuttle in front of the Quad (1890's) 
Photo: Stanford University Archives

https://transportation.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/styles/home_promotional_image_small/public/2016-08/Electric%20Buses_09.jpg?itok=h6aI8xTb
(Electric bus)  About the Commute Club | Stanford Parking & Transportation
Services - Stanford University
Marguerite bus and Caltrain train at Palo Alto Transit Center
]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170110

[Cor van de Water via EV]

GM treats the Bolt as if it is something totally new with the use of
many alu body panels and high strength steel alloy, but most body shops
have already plenty experience with the Nissan Leaf, the only difference
I know is that the front fenders of the Leaf are still sheet steel
alloy, while the Bolt apparently has alu fenders. But the Leaf doors are
also alu, as I found out when I tried to work on the damaged driver door
in the Salvage Leaf that I bought. I needed a *big* hammer to get the
front lip of the door into the shape I wanted and I had to watch out or
it crumbled. This was just to make the driver door operate normally (not
to make it look good) until I was able to find an undamaged door to
replace it. Which happened a month later.
Body shop did not blink an eye when I asked them to work on the EV, they
only asked how to turn it on and off.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 7:16 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170110



http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-GM-s-t
ighter-Bolt-EV-restrictions-Require-Special-Body-Shop-Attention-td468540
9.html
EVLN: GM's tighter Bolt EV restrictions Require Special Body Shop
Attention
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV Will Require Special Attention From Body ...
The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt ... EV's use of aluminum should have body shops
...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Petalu
mans-take-to-emission-free-EV-driving-gt-everybody-gets-an-EV-grin-td468
5408.html
EVLN: Petalumans take to emission-free EV driving> (everybody gets an
EV-grin)
... vehicles, SCP and Petaluma-based Labcon co-hosted a free public
Electric
... wave of electric vehicles, but wanted to wait and see how those cars
held up in ...
Labcon Automation Technician Dan Cuenca said he was interested in the
latest
...

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Long-Beach-
CA-Giving-Away-270-Free-Electric-Vehicle-Chargers-to-Residents-td4685407
.html
Long_Beach-CA Giving Away 270 Free Electric Vehicle Chargers to
Residents
The City of Long Beach will give away 270 Electric Vehicle (EV) chargers
free of cost as part of the new expedited permitting process for
electric
vehicle charging ...




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt named top car in N. America

[paul dove via EV]

And despite the fact that GM specifically said this was a compliance car and 
had no intention of selling this in other states.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 9, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> And when I heard it on the radio and no mention of the word "ELECTRIC" Bolt,
> I called my local radio station and pointed out that without the word
> ELECTRIC, then the NEWS value was LOST.  Surprising, they corrected the news
> story later in the day...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2017 10:38 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt named top car in N. America
> 
> Excerpts from
> http://www.seattletimes.com/business/top-car-truck-utility-to-be-unveiled-at-detroit-auto-show/
> Peri
> 
> The Chevy Bolt has been named top car in North America, an important
> milestone for a car General Motors hopes will finally get Americans hooked
> on electric vehicles.
> 
> The honors were announced Monday morning at Detroit’s Cobo Center as the
> North American International Auto Show’s press preview days kicked into high
> gear.
> 
> About 60 automotive journalists serve as judges for North American Car,
> Truck and Utility Vehicle of the Year awards. Eligible vehicles must be new
> or substantially changed.
> 
> Organizers accept no advertising, though automakers try to capitalize on the
> marketing value of the awards, in their 24th year.
> 
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[EVDL] Seattle buying 100+ Proterra EV buses

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Excerpts, below, from

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/coming-soon-to-a-transit-route-near-you-more-battery-powered-electric-buses/

Peri

-
King County Metro will buy more than 100 battery-powered electric buses, 
following what officials called a successful test in Bellevue last year.


Most will be short, 40-foot buses that recharge in minutes, but a few 
are experimental buses that charge over several hours and have a longer 
range, he said.


Details about the “major purchase” are to be announced Tuesday, says a 
news-media advisory by County Executive Dow Constantine. The first group 
of buses would arrive this year.


The order being announced Tuesday would be the largest battery-powered 
bus fleet in the country, Dembowski said.


Neighborhoods will benefit, Dembowski argues, because battery-powered 
buses are quieter and lighter than hybrids and cause less pavement 
damage 
<http://westseattleblog.com/2016/03/bus-battered-roads-curbs-homes-westwood-roxhill-arbor-heights-cc-report-3/>.


Battery buses at $780,000 each, not counting charging docks, are cheaper 
than trolleybuses at $1 million per vehicle, not counting miles of 
wires.


Metro’s battery bus purchase would “move the industry,” Dembowski 
argues. “As one of the top seven transit agencies 
<http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2016-q2-ridership-APTA.PDF> 
in the country, this is sending a signal to the rest of the industry 
that we have confidence in the technology.”

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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170110

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-GM-s-tighter-Bolt-EV-restrictions-Require-Special-Body-Shop-Attention-td4685409.html
EVLN: GM's tighter Bolt EV restrictions Require Special Body Shop Attention
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV Will Require Special Attention From Body ...
The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt ... EV's use of aluminum should have body shops ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Petalumans-take-to-emission-free-EV-driving-gt-everybody-gets-an-EV-grin-td4685408.html
EVLN: Petalumans take to emission-free EV driving> (everybody gets an
EV-grin)
... vehicles, SCP and Petaluma-based Labcon co-hosted a free public Electric
... wave of electric vehicles, but wanted to wait and see how those cars
held up in ...
Labcon Automation Technician Dan Cuenca said he was interested in the latest
...

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Long-Beach-CA-Giving-Away-270-Free-Electric-Vehicle-Chargers-to-Residents-td4685407.html
Long_Beach-CA Giving Away 270 Free Electric Vehicle Chargers to Residents
The City of Long Beach will give away 270 Electric Vehicle (EV) chargers
free of cost as part of the new expedited permitting process for electric
vehicle charging ...




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[Hoegberg via EV]

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 12:12:35 +0100
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
>


Sorry for the multiple emails,, some problem with the webmail

// Microb$oft
  
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Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:32:51 -0800
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> I read the claims of the Patent (which is the meat of the invention)
> and while I understand that you can establish parameters for a pack and
> determine for example loss of a single cell in a parallel configuration
> in a number of ways, for example because that set of parallel cells will
> have lower capacity than the other (series connected) sets, so the
> voltage of the set with one less (functioning) cell will rise and fall
> faster with SoC;
> it is also possible to determine (increase of) impedance of a set of
> parallel cells by monitoring the short-term voltage variation correlated
> with changes ("transient" in terms of the patent) in the current flowing
> through the cells (from acceleration and regen or charging start/stop),
> but I do not understand their claim that they determine an overcharge
> event by finding a *lower* impedance of the cell than normal 
> All data that I have seen show that pack impedance goes *up* at the low
> and the high end of SoC, so how can they determine overcharging from
> lowered impedance???
> Unless the Panasonic/Tesla cells react differently to overcharge than
> other chemistries.
> For over*dis*charge they do expect and detect a rise in cell impedance.
>
> After Claim 9 we find the usual stuff for a Lithium-ion battery with BMS
> that balances cells, the only really new thing that this patent seems to
> claim is the *de*crease of impedance during overcharge and the fact that
> it uses an independent system for the over- and under-charge threshold
> detection so that if the main BMS fails and balancing is unavailable, at
> least this backup system prevents the battery from over- and
> under-charge so the car can continue to be used (and driven to the
> service appointment) with the main BMS out.
> This fact of a backup BMS as well as the *lowered* impedance measured to
> represent overcharging was probably never claimed before and thus it is
> possible to get a patent on this, but I find this a very flimsy basis
> for a patent.
> It is always possible that I misunderstood the patent - reading and
> interpreting claims is never easy stuff but I have a bit of experience
> ;-)
>
> Cor van de Water


Hmm, 
all decent bms do allt/most of this already today, right?
At least the one we build at the hobby-level, hehe
 
Statistics used on all individual cells/modules and using the peak load/regen 
and the charger, no load voltage drop after charge andso on, statistics on 
temperature dependancy at high currents, 
 
Dont we all use the car as the ultimate "heavy duty battery tester"?
 
Also the "oooh-shit"-redundant solution from Linear about 7-10 years ago, had 
a fallback, at least monitoring the min max voltage -levels(?) 

This was Done at a different chip, 
..if the main ltc680x chip or computer / signal lines 
fails for any reason, right?
 
if I remember their solution right it was just pulses out, as long "all ok", 
it could be daisy-chained on all pack cells groups, 
just monitoring a single output "allgood"-pulse, 

or monitor individual banks pulse-chanels in paralell, 
one pulse channel for each bank of 12 cell-levels, if you did like that.
 
At least I think I have this redundant circuits on my now very old 48chanel 
dev-boards from Linear..  :-)
 
/ John
  
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[EVDL] FW: TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

[Hoegberg via EV]

> From: hoegb...@hotmail.com
> To: billd...@killacycle.com
> Subject: RE: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 11:57:30 +0100
>
> Hmm,
> all decent bms do allt/most of this already today, right?
> At least the one we build at the hobby-level, hehe
>
> Statistics used on all individual cells/modules and using the peak load/regen 
> and the charger, no load voltage drop after charge andso on, statistics on 
> temperature dependancy at high currents,
>
> dont we all use the car as the "heavy duty battery tester"?
>
> Also the "oooh-shit"-redundant solution from Linear about 7-10 years ago had 
> a fallback,
> at least monitoring the min max voltage -levels(?) Done at a different chip,
> ..if the main ltc680x chip or computer / signal lines fails for any reason, 
> right?
>
> if I remember their solution right it wasjust puses out as long all ok, could 
> be daisy on all pack cells monitoring to a single output "allgood", or 
> individual pulse-chanels in paralell, one pulse channel for each bank of 12 
> cell-levels if you like that better.
>
> At least I think I have this redundant circuits on my dev-boards from 
> Linear..  :-)
>
> / John
>
>
> 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 23:29:39 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an 
>> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element
>> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>
>> Doesn't Lee Hart's "Batt Bridge" do this?
>> Seems like it monitors cell behavior (impedance, voltage) and
>> continuously compares it with the group behavior.
>> Wouldn't the Batt Bridge be prior art?
>> Seems like it to me.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
>> On 1/7/2017 10:32 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>> I read the claims of the Patent (which is the meat of the invention)
>>> and while I understand that you can establish parameters for a pack and
>>> determine for example loss of a single cell in a parallel configuration
>>> in a number of ways, for example because that set of parallel cells will
>>> have lower capacity than the other (series connected) sets, so the
>>> voltage of the set with one less (functioning) cell will rise and fall
>>> faster with SoC;
>>> it is also possible to determine (increase of) impedance of a set of
>>> parallel cells by monitoring the short-term voltage variation correlated
>>> with changes ("transient" in terms of the patent) in the current flowing
>>> through the cells (from acceleration and regen or charging start/stop),
>>> but I do not understand their claim that they determine an overcharge
>>> event by finding a *lower* impedance of the cell than normal 
>>> All data that I have seen show that pack impedance goes *up* at the low
>>> and the high end of SoC, so how can they determine overcharging from
>>> lowered impedance???
>>> Unless the Panasonic/Tesla cells react differently to overcharge than
>>> other chemistries.
>>> For over*dis*charge they do expect and detect a rise in cell impedance.
>>>
>>> After Claim 9 we find the usual stuff for a Lithium-ion battery with BMS
>>> that balances cells, the only really new thing that this patent seems to
>>> claim is the *de*crease of impedance during overcharge and the fact that
>>> it uses an independent system for the over- and under-charge threshold
>>> detection so that if the main BMS fails and balancing is unavailable, at
>>> least this backup system prevents the battery from over- and
>>> under-charge so the car can continue to be used (and driven to the
>>> service appointment) with the main BMS out.
>>> This fact of a backup BMS as well as the *lowered* impedance measured to
>>> represent overcharging was probably never claimed before and thus it is
>>> possible to get a patent on this, but I find this a very flimsy basis
>>> for a patent.
>>> It is always possible that I misunderstood the patent - reading and
>>> interpreting claims is never easy stuff but I have a bit of experience
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Chief Scientist
>>> Proxim Wireless
>>>
>>> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>> XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
>>>
>>> http://www.proxim.com
>>>
>>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received
>>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any
>>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>>> this message is prohibited.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 3:59 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an
>>> Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected