[EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Lee, I think this 98% recycled is a case of very carefully drawing the 
envelope. I believe it only accounts for batteries that make it though 
the front gate of the recycling facility.


Here is why:

According to the International Lead Association's figures, lead-acid 
batteries use 85% of all the lead produced form all sources. (This 
percentage goes up a touch with each passing year because lead is used 
in fewer other products.)
About 50% of the lead produced is mined, and 50% comes from recycled 
lead. This is also directly from the ILA figures.

This ~50% recycled fraction has been quite steady for quite a few years.
https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-recycling

If _none_ of the lead used for other than lead-acid batteries is 
recycled but ends up in the land fill, (not true, but bear with me) 
where is the remaining 35% of the lead used for lead acid batteries going?


Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries is _not_ being 
recycled. If they were recycled at 98%, there would be at least 83% of 
the lead production would be from recycled lead from lead-acid 
batteries.  Only 50% comes from recycled lead.


The figures just don't add up. At least 35% of lead-acid batteries are 
ending up in the land fill. Just doing basic mass balance accounting 
using the ILA figures.


Indeed, an entire EV's worth of batteries is more likely to end up at 
the recycler than an alarm battery, but the 98% I believe is "creative 
accounting" at best.


Bill D.


On 1/23/2018 11:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on 
lead acid batteries.


The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are 
huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which 
there is no safe exposure.


Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so 
can the materials in just about any battery.


The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. 
Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and 
procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. 
Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other 
battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as 
trash and wind up in landfills.




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Re: [EVDL] Delivery truck

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid 
batteries.

The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, 
contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no safe 
exposure.


Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so can the 
materials in just about any battery.


The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. Lead-acid 
batteries have been around so long that there are laws and procedures (in most 
developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. Upwards of 98% of the lead is 
recycled into new batteries. No other battery comes close. The majority of them 
are (sadly) thrown out as trash and wind up in landfills.


--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
-- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Delivery truck

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid 
batteries.

The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, 
contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no safe 
exposure. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Marc de Piolenc via EV  wrote:
> 
> Great article. And it points up a serious flaw in all the recent promotion of 
> electric vehicles - they all neglect the one mission that an electric can 
> perform without exotic batteries, ultra-lightweight construction and huge 
> amounts of money.
> The British milk float (recently) and the many delivery vehicles (earlier on) 
> are proof of this, using ordinary deep-cycle lead acid batteries.
> The early government support for EV development in the 1970s emphasized this 
> mission, but these days I guess it just isn't "cool."
> 
> Marc
> -- 
> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap DC motor control anyone?

[Lee Hart via EV]

David Chapman via EV wrote:

Working on a belt sander project using a 130V PMDC motor off a treadmill. The control 
board got crushed so I need a simple cheap adjustable speed control. Anyone have 
something laying around they want to get rid of? Need 115Vac input. Thanks Dach. "Do 
what you can, with what you have, where you are" - Theodore Roosevelt “We reached 
the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes  I was young 
then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that 
no wolves would mean hunters’ paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed 
that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.” - Aldo Leopold


How about an old-fashioned phase-control light dimmer? It will give you 
variable speed, though not speed "control".


Or, steal the speed control out of an unused or garage-sale 120vac 
drill. The circuit is only slightly more complicated, but uses the 
motor's back-EMF to sort-of regulate the speed.


I'm looking at a circuit in the GE SCR manual 5th edition on page 293. 
It uses a bridge rectifier, 1 SCR, 2 resistors, 1 potentiometer (the 
speed control), 1 capacitor, and two diodes.


--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
-- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] Cheap DC motor control anyone?

[David Chapman via EV]

Working on a belt sander project using a 130V PMDC motor off a treadmill. The 
control board got crushed so I need a simple cheap adjustable speed control. 
Anyone have something laying around they want to get rid of? Need 115Vac input. 
Thanks Dach. "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" - Theodore 
Roosevelt “We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying 
in her eyes  I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that 
because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’ 
paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf 
nor the mountain agreed with such a view.” - Aldo Leopold
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Re: [EVDL] Delivery truck

[Dan Kegel via EV]

That made me look up usps ev stuff, found this fun history up to 2014
of USPS EV efforts:
https://about.usps.com/what-we-are-doing/green/vehicles.htm
and some info about their current competition to replace trucks:
https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-secret-new-electric-u-s-postal-service-truck-1819339421
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Re: [EVDL] Delivery truck

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Marc,
on the contrary. Batteries only perform as good as the mantenance they
receive.


I agree. Most batteries do not die of old age... they are "murdered" by 
ignorance, neglect, and abuse!


What you do you think would happen to an ICE if no maintenance was done 
at all? Instead of it lasting 100k or 200k miles, it would be ruined in 
a small fraction of that time.


Yeah, yeah... there are anecdotal stories on the web of people who claim 
they never even changed the oil and the car lasted 100k miles. But I 
also have an uncle who tried this, and his new car's engine siezed at 
about 22k miles from lack of oil. It was a pretty expensive lesson.



I can give many examples of EVs that did not get a good acceptance or
where people got burned by issues with the batteries, no matter whether
it is lead or NiMH...


Or lithium. Incompetent design and owner abuse can destroy *any* battery 
before its time.



I have a very good idea why people like the no-maintenance-needed Leaf
so much.


I suspect most people aren't even *aware* that batteries can have 
maintenance and abuse issues.


The automakers know that people won't take care of them. So, their EVs 
"take care" of the batteries for you. They used types that don't need 
(and in fact, *cannot*) be maintained. They design the control systems 
to *prevent* abuse, even if the owner tries. This certainly helps; but 
it also adds considerably to the cost of the EV.



Obviously, in some types of service with guaranteed dedicated
maintenance staff... there are many well-performing Lead-acid battery
EVs due to the high level and quality of maintenance that is embedded
in these organisations.


Yes. In some markets, it is traditional to buy the best, and maintain it 
so it lasts "forever". That leads to the lowest total cost.


But in most consumer markets, customers do little or no maintenance. 
They pay more, and then just "use it up" and "throw it out".


--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
-- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Delivery truck

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Marc, 
on the contrary. Batteries only perform as good as the mantenance they
receive.
Many experiments of EVs in fleet service (USPS comes to mind) "failed"
because the
drivers did not like the EVs and apparently necessary maintenance was
not performed,
so the EVs soon sat unused, abused.
My previous electric truck was converted for the City of Santa Rosa
around 1995 with a
DC motor and flooded lead-acid batteries, so it even got a tilt-bed to
access the batteries
under the bed.
By 2011 it had accumulated a handful of running hours, since it
apparently sat 15 years in
the Santa Rosa city yard virtually unused.
I bought it after a guy in Saratoga invested in restoring it, using Golf
Cart batteries.
So, every few months I found myself watering all 60 cells with distilled
water, cleaning
terminals from the accumulated crud and generally not enjoying the
amount of
ongoing maintenance that I had to do to this truck.
When the pack started getting older after 4-5 years as daily driver, I
sold that truck
and found my current daily driver, a US Electricar S10.
It too had sat many years with a (now dead) lead-acid pack.
I ripped out the lead and installed 2 used Nissan Leaf packs in the two
battery box halves.
I have not needed to get into that battery box again, there is no
maintenance needed,
I just get in, drive it and plug in to charge.
I have now put over 6,000 miles on it this last year, I have never
driven an EV more than
this one, because it is a joy to drive plus the absence of maintenance
allows me to do
things that I rather do than caring for my car's batteries.

I can give many examples of EVs that did not get a good acceptance or
where people
got burned by issues with the batteries, no matter whether it is lead or
NiMH such as
the Vectrix motorcycle (scooter actually) where the designers were
pushed by sales
to give it higher top speed, literally blowing up the NiMH cells and
even the fuse.

I have a very good idea why people like the no-maintenance-needed Leaf
so much.

Obviously, in some types of service with guaranteed dedicated
maintenance staff,
whether on Golf courses or Airport ground services or Warehouse
operation, 
there are many well-performing Lead-acid battery EVs due to the high
level and
quality of maintenance that is embedded in these organisations.
In cases where the maintenance is a nuisance, you see a quick move to
Lithium Ion
type batteries for a good reason.
Regards,
Cor.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Marc de Piolenc
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:32 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Marc de Piolenc
Subject: [EVDL] Delivery truck

Great article. And it points up a serious flaw in all the recent
promotion of electric vehicles - they all neglect the one mission that
an electric can perform without exotic batteries, ultra-lightweight
construction and huge amounts of money.
The British milk float (recently) and the many delivery vehicles
(earlier on) are proof of this, using ordinary deep-cycle lead acid
batteries.
The early government support for EV development in the 1970s emphasized
this mission, but these days I guess it just isn't "cool."

Marc
--
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog:
http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile):
http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
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[EVDL] Delivery truck

[Marc de Piolenc via EV]

Great article. And it points up a serious flaw in all the recent 
promotion of electric vehicles - they all neglect the one mission that 
an electric can perform without exotic batteries, ultra-lightweight 
construction and huge amounts of money.
The British milk float (recently) and the many delivery vehicles 
(earlier on) are proof of this, using ordinary deep-cycle lead acid 
batteries.
The early government support for EV development in the 1970s emphasized 
this mission, but these days I guess it just isn't "cool."


Marc
--
Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog
Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog
Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380
Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc
Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/
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[EVDL] article: Worked for 52 Years, Still Running: 1912 C-T 4WD Electric Truck

[Paul Wujek via EV]

https://bringatrailer.com/2018/01/20/worked-for-52-years-still-running-1912-c-t-4wd-electric-truck
/

-- 
*Paul Wujek*
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Re: [EVDL] Battery shipping

[Barry Oppenheim via EV]

Cor,

Great info.

Thanks,
Barry

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Barry,
>
> It goes by weight and distance.
>
> They have shipped a complete Nissan Leaf battery (on an oversized pallet)
> for me across country for around $500
>
> and the shipment to Lee has about 500 lbs of cells plus a Prius battery on
> a standard sized pallet
>
> and the cost of this almost cross-country shipment plus Haz plus
> residential fees is also just over 500.
>
> Note that the company I work for has a contract w R and I repay my
> employer for the private shipment.
>
>
>
> Actually, when I say pallet, I typically build a *crate* from 2 pallets
> with pillars in between, to protect the shipment.
>
> In the case of Lee’s shipment I coralled the cells between 2x4 pieces
> midway up the cells,
>
> that I attached to the pillars plus old plywood under and some slats above
> the cells so they have nowhere to go.
>
> The Prius battery was simpler, just bolt down to the pallet and plywood.
>
> Cor.
>
>
>
> From: Barry Oppenheim [mailto:ba...@drbarryoppenheim.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Cor van de Water
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery shipping
>
>
>
> Cor,
>
>
>
> Do you happen to know the total cost per battery?
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> Barry,
> Very timely question.
> Just yesterday I shipped a pallet with LiFePO4 batteries to Lee Hart.
> I used R Carriers, you just have to pay a Hazardous Materials fee.
> I believe their website is rlc.com
> Cor.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Oppenheim
> via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Barry Oppenheim
> Subject: [EVDL] Battery shipping
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for shippers who handle LiFePO
> batteries?  I have some CALB 180ah batteries that UPS/Fedex won't ship.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry
>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery shipping

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Barry,

It goes by weight and distance.

They have shipped a complete Nissan Leaf battery (on an oversized pallet) for 
me across country for around $500

and the shipment to Lee has about 500 lbs of cells plus a Prius battery on a 
standard sized pallet

and the cost of this almost cross-country shipment plus Haz plus residential 
fees is also just over 500.

Note that the company I work for has a contract w R and I repay my employer 
for the private shipment.

 

Actually, when I say pallet, I typically build a *crate* from 2 pallets with 
pillars in between, to protect the shipment.

In the case of Lee’s shipment I coralled the cells between 2x4 pieces midway up 
the cells,

that I attached to the pillars plus old plywood under and some slats above the 
cells so they have nowhere to go.

The Prius battery was simpler, just bolt down to the pallet and plywood.

Cor.

 

From: Barry Oppenheim [mailto:ba...@drbarryoppenheim.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:59 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery shipping

 

Cor,

 

Do you happen to know the total cost per battery?

Barry

 

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:

Barry,
Very timely question.
Just yesterday I shipped a pallet with LiFePO4 batteries to Lee Hart.
I used R Carriers, you just have to pay a Hazardous Materials fee.
I believe their website is rlc.com
Cor.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Oppenheim
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Barry Oppenheim
Subject: [EVDL] Battery shipping

Does anyone have any recommendations for shippers who handle LiFePO
batteries?  I have some CALB 180ah batteries that UPS/Fedex won't ship.

Thanks,
Barry

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Re: [EVDL] Battery shipping

[Barry Oppenheim via EV]

Cor,

Do you happen to know the total cost per battery?

Barry

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Barry,
> Very timely question.
> Just yesterday I shipped a pallet with LiFePO4 batteries to Lee Hart.
> I used R Carriers, you just have to pay a Hazardous Materials fee.
> I believe their website is rlc.com
> Cor.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Oppenheim
> via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Barry Oppenheim
> Subject: [EVDL] Battery shipping
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for shippers who handle LiFePO
> batteries?  I have some CALB 180ah batteries that UPS/Fedex won't ship.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry
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Re: [EVDL] Battery shipping

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Barry,
Very timely question.
Just yesterday I shipped a pallet with LiFePO4 batteries to Lee Hart.
I used R Carriers, you just have to pay a Hazardous Materials fee.
I believe their website is rlc.com
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Oppenheim
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 10:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Barry Oppenheim
Subject: [EVDL] Battery shipping

Does anyone have any recommendations for shippers who handle LiFePO
batteries?  I have some CALB 180ah batteries that UPS/Fedex won't ship.

Thanks,
Barry
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[EVDL] Battery shipping

[Barry Oppenheim via EV]

Does anyone have any recommendations for shippers who handle LiFePO
batteries?  I have some CALB 180ah batteries that UPS/Fedex won't ship.

Thanks,
Barry
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