Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Rick Beebe  wrote:

> I have a Ford C-Max plug-in hybrid that I like a lot.

Thanks for the suggestion; I'm not particularly familiar with it, and I don't 
know if my friend considered it. I'll check it out and pass it on.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Rick Beebe via EV]

On 11/06/2014 09:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On Nov 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Alan Brinkman via EV 
wrote:


How about a used Volt? Or a used Leaf and a low cost beater ICE as
a backup? Or a used Smart electric car with a used ICE beater?


All suggestions I made.


I have a Ford C-Max plug-in hybrid that I like a lot. Less EV range than 
the Volt--about 25 miles--but it's generally enough for me. It's 
considerably less expensive than the Volt and carries a lot more.


--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 6, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Alan Brinkman via EV  wrote:

> How about a used Volt? Or a used Leaf and a low cost beater ICE as a backup? 
> Or a used Smart electric car with a used ICE beater?

All suggestions I made.

He's nervous about the quality of used batteries, even though I tried to 
explain to him that they're getting real-world lifetimes comparable with 
automatic transmissions. Sure, you might buy an used EV with batteries that die 
a year or three later -- but you could just as easily buy an ICE with a 
transmission that dies a year or three later, too.

His wife has a sales-type job that has her putting too many miles on the road 
for possibly even a Tesla, so they'll always have a "backup." But he's also 
worried about the might-never-actually-happen instance where he himself might 
have to bounce all over the place for some random confluence of family 
emergencies that he doesn't learn about until after he's already at work.

The Volt really would be perfect for him. I'm hoping that either they're in his 
price range when he decides he's ready to buy (at least another year) or that 
something else similar enough is on the market or horizon.

At the least, I take solace in the fact that Volt-style hybrids are likely to 
soon dominate the already-dominant hybrid market. And, frankly, if all today's 
hybrid models were replaced with plugin models with 20 - 40 miles of range, 
that'd pretty much end our private transportation energy crisis. The transition 
from such a state of affairs to an all-electric one would be natural and easy 
but much less urgent.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

That's a no brainer.  Get a Volt!

original email -
I have a friend who's contemplating buying a new car. I was able to get
him to seriously consider an EV, but he says there're enough times he
needs more than 100 miles range for some random emergency that he can't
consider one, though I'm sure it'd otherwise be ideal for him and his
commute. He's put off the decision for another year until a certain 2013
model something-or-other he has his eye on drops enough in price. By then
I should have my PHEV conversion of the Mustang done...maybe between that
and new EV models released soon I'll persuade him to the dark side.

Another factor is that the used EV market isn't very mature, and there's
still lots of questions about the remaining life of older EV batteries.
Once that settles, I think we'll see an upswing in used EV sales that'll
translate into more demand for new and old EVs both.

And, whatever else I think of Tesla Motor Company and what they do to
what're otherwise damned impressive cars, I can't deny being very excited
about what they're doing for the battery market. I'm going to face some
tough choices when it comes to batteries, knowing that there's going to be
so much rapid evolution on that front.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Alan Brinkman via EV]

Ben,
Robert,

How about a used Volt? Or a used Leaf and a low cost beater ICE as a backup? Or 
a used Smart electric car with a used ICE beater? The cost of insurance for two 
cars, space, upkeep, license is a drawback. And the individual is likely 
interested in a new car, not someone else's problem. I have a friend who is 
very well versed in shopping for a bargain, who regularly uses rental vehicles 
on vacation trips to keep miles and wear off the two ICE vehicles in the 
garage. If a person had an electric vehicle as a daily driver, then spent the 
time to track down good deals on rental cars for long trips, I think they could 
come out ok in the end, and could enjoy a variety of newer rental cars for 
trips.

I keep looking at the used prices of Leafs, Volts and recently Smart electric 
cars, and keep seeing newer models available, less mileage, and the used prices 
keep slowly going down. My son and I both have pickup trucks and are starting 
to keep tabs on the monthly fuel cost versus monthly cost of a used BEV. My son 
wants to save up and build a small electric pickup truck, and save but park the 
ICE. I would like to save my ICE pickup truck for towing a trailer and small 
jobs, and would like a BEV for daily use.

Have a great day!
Alan

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 7:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

On Nov 6, 2014, at 6:53 AM, Robert Bruninga  wrote:

>> That's a no brainer.  Get a Volt!

>First thing I suggested to him.

>It's out of his price range...he's looking for under $20K if possible -- thus, 
>he's holding out (for now) for another year or so until a certain 2013 >model 
>year Honda something-or-other he has his eye on is in that price range. 
>Snip

>b&

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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 6, 2014, at 6:53 AM, Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> That's a no brainer.  Get a Volt!

First thing I suggested to him.

It's out of his price range...he's looking for under $20K if possible -- thus, 
he's holding out (for now) for another year or so until a certain 2013 model 
year Honda something-or-other he has his eye on is in that price range. That's 
why I'm hoping the rapid evolution of EVs is rapid enough for him...with the 
Golf and BMW coming out now and Tesla making all sorts of noises about 
econoboxes and all sorts of Asian and European vehicles coming out all the 
time...well, with luck, when he's ready to start thinking about opening his 
wallet, maybe by then there'll be used Volts in his price range, or a new 
all-electric something with just barely enough extra range plus rapid charging, 
or some other variation on that theme...or maybe I'll ask him just how many 
times in the last year he actually _has_ driven over 100 miles at a time.

Main thing, the seed's been planted. Might not get anything out of it, but at 
least it's not entirely out of the question.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 1, 2014, at 3:54 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:

> This is my observation about countering anti-EV rhetoric.  If you find 
> things are different where you are, I'd like to hear about it!

I don't seem to run into a lot of anti-EV rhetoric outside of the types of 
Internet trolls who'll troll anything.

My biggest personal complaints with EVs are ones that apply to most new cars, 
but seemingly especially Teslas: the computerization is turning them into 
appliances that somebody else controls and you yourself never really own.

I have a friend who's contemplating buying a new car. I was able to get him to 
seriously consider an EV, but he says there're enough times he needs more than 
100 miles range for some random emergency that he can't consider one, though 
I'm sure it'd otherwise be ideal for him and his commute. He's put off the 
decision for another year until a certain 2013 model something-or-other he has 
his eye on drops enough in price. By then I should have my PHEV conversion of 
the Mustang done...maybe between that and new EV models released soon I'll 
persuade him to the dark side.

Another factor is that the used EV market isn't very mature, and there's still 
lots of questions about the remaining life of older EV batteries. Once that 
settles, I think we'll see an upswing in used EV sales that'll translate into 
more demand for new and old EVs both.

And, whatever else I think of Tesla Motor Company and what they do to what're 
otherwise damned impressive cars, I can't deny being very excited about what 
they're doing for the battery market. I'm going to face some tough choices when 
it comes to batteries, knowing that there's going to be so much rapid evolution 
on that front.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Admittedly I don't read a lot of traditional media. But I do see a lot of EV- 
related media. So I'm puzzled by your reference to lots of anti-EV rhetoric. 
Where are you seeing it?  I'm not. In fact, I see lots of positive things 
everywhere about EVs. I also see people much better informed about them than 
they ever have. And the awareness seems to be beyond just the "usual suspects."

Further, as I would have never imagined when I first started pushing EVs over 
25 years ago, the movement towards EVs is going well beyond the light duty 
niche.

I'm confident that they're here to stay, and in many flavors.

I think that these are good times for EVs.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 3:54 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> This is my observation about countering anti-EV rhetoric.  If you find 
> things are different where you are, I'd like to hear about it!
> 
> Maybe 15-20 years ago, when I talked to people about EVs, most didn't know 
> much about them.  When I explained the state of the art (then), the most 
> common reaction I got was that EVs were a good idea - for someone else. ("I 
> couldn't deal with that limited range").  I almost never heard today's 
> litany of anti-EV arguments from anyone.  
> 
> Today folks I talk to are much more informed about EVs.  That makes for a 
> classical "good news, bad news" situation.
> 
> Some of them have generally positive views of EVs, though there still some 
> misconceptions.  A subset of those folks say they're considering an EV or 
> PHV for their next vehicles.  That's a really positive change.  The idea 
> that they might buy an EV wasn't even on their radar back in the day.
> 
> On the other hand, some of the "informed" folks have clearly been 
> deliberatly MISinformed. They've had their heads filled with anti-EV 
> rhetoric by media. The media people in turn are paid (sponsored) by big-
> bucks interests who stand to someday lose a fraction of a percent of their 
> petro-dollars income, or are otherwise "threatened" by EVs.  (In some cases 
> I don't doubt that they are literally paid to spread these views, given the 
> ownership of some media conglomerates.)
> 
> There's also a whole army of paid "astroturfers" who troll the online 
> forums, and write to magazines and newspapers, to post anti-EV rhetoric.  
> The same folks who pay them also pay anti-EV "experts" to appear on radio 
> and television programs. 
> 
> But this is really no different from any other product today.  Politicians 
> and advertisers are really two ends of the same sausage.  Their game is 
> sowing discord and division.  You're an Apple person or a Windows person, an 
> IOS or an Android person, a Ford or a Chevy person, a Democrat or a 
> Republican.  Some of these "brands" demand more loyalty than others, but in 
> every case there's an element of "you're either with us or you're against 
> us."  Drink the Kool-aid, drink it all, or get lost.
> 
> Alas, that's just the way things are now; there's not much we can do to 
> change it.  It's the reason that it's become difficult (at least for me) to 
> argue rationally with the anti-EV folks.  They're all upstanding members of 
> the anti-EV club.  Their minds are made up, and they don't want to be 
> bothered with the facts.  I say don't waste your time on them.  Instead, 
> invest it in the folks who still have open minds about EVs.  Thank goodness 
> there are still some.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[Paul Dove via EV]

I usually just let them drive my car. 

Then they say "this is just like a regular car only peppier"

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:54 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> This is my observation about countering anti-EV rhetoric.  If you find 
> things are different where you are, I'd like to hear about it!
> 
> Maybe 15-20 years ago, when I talked to people about EVs, most didn't know 
> much about them.  When I explained the state of the art (then), the most 
> common reaction I got was that EVs were a good idea - for someone else. ("I 
> couldn't deal with that limited range").  I almost never heard today's 
> litany of anti-EV arguments from anyone.  
> 
> Today folks I talk to are much more informed about EVs.  That makes for a 
> classical "good news, bad news" situation.
> 
> Some of them have generally positive views of EVs, though there still some 
> misconceptions.  A subset of those folks say they're considering an EV or 
> PHV for their next vehicles.  That's a really positive change.  The idea 
> that they might buy an EV wasn't even on their radar back in the day.
> 
> On the other hand, some of the "informed" folks have clearly been 
> deliberatly MISinformed. They've had their heads filled with anti-EV 
> rhetoric by media. The media people in turn are paid (sponsored) by big-
> bucks interests who stand to someday lose a fraction of a percent of their 
> petro-dollars income, or are otherwise "threatened" by EVs.  (In some cases 
> I don't doubt that they are literally paid to spread these views, given the 
> ownership of some media conglomerates.)
> 
> There's also a whole army of paid "astroturfers" who troll the online 
> forums, and write to magazines and newspapers, to post anti-EV rhetoric.  
> The same folks who pay them also pay anti-EV "experts" to appear on radio 
> and television programs. 
> 
> But this is really no different from any other product today.  Politicians 
> and advertisers are really two ends of the same sausage.  Their game is 
> sowing discord and division.  You're an Apple person or a Windows person, an 
> IOS or an Android person, a Ford or a Chevy person, a Democrat or a 
> Republican.  Some of these "brands" demand more loyalty than others, but in 
> every case there's an element of "you're either with us or you're against 
> us."  Drink the Kool-aid, drink it all, or get lost.
> 
> Alas, that's just the way things are now; there's not much we can do to 
> change it.  It's the reason that it's become difficult (at least for me) to 
> argue rationally with the anti-EV folks.  They're all upstanding members of 
> the anti-EV club.  Their minds are made up, and they don't want to be 
> bothered with the facts.  I say don't waste your time on them.  Instead, 
> invest it in the folks who still have open minds about EVs.  Thank goodness 
> there are still some.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

This is my observation about countering anti-EV rhetoric.  If you find 
things are different where you are, I'd like to hear about it!

Maybe 15-20 years ago, when I talked to people about EVs, most didn't know 
much about them.  When I explained the state of the art (then), the most 
common reaction I got was that EVs were a good idea - for someone else. ("I 
couldn't deal with that limited range").  I almost never heard today's 
litany of anti-EV arguments from anyone.  

Today folks I talk to are much more informed about EVs.  That makes for a 
classical "good news, bad news" situation.

Some of them have generally positive views of EVs, though there still some 
misconceptions.  A subset of those folks say they're considering an EV or 
PHV for their next vehicles.  That's a really positive change.  The idea 
that they might buy an EV wasn't even on their radar back in the day.

On the other hand, some of the "informed" folks have clearly been 
deliberatly MISinformed. They've had their heads filled with anti-EV 
rhetoric by media. The media people in turn are paid (sponsored) by big-
bucks interests who stand to someday lose a fraction of a percent of their 
petro-dollars income, or are otherwise "threatened" by EVs.  (In some cases 
I don't doubt that they are literally paid to spread these views, given the 
ownership of some media conglomerates.)

There's also a whole army of paid "astroturfers" who troll the online 
forums, and write to magazines and newspapers, to post anti-EV rhetoric.  
The same folks who pay them also pay anti-EV "experts" to appear on radio 
and television programs. 

But this is really no different from any other product today.  Politicians 
and advertisers are really two ends of the same sausage.  Their game is 
sowing discord and division.  You're an Apple person or a Windows person, an 
IOS or an Android person, a Ford or a Chevy person, a Democrat or a 
Republican.  Some of these "brands" demand more loyalty than others, but in 
every case there's an element of "you're either with us or you're against 
us."  Drink the Kool-aid, drink it all, or get lost.

Alas, that's just the way things are now; there's not much we can do to 
change it.  It's the reason that it's become difficult (at least for me) to 
argue rationally with the anti-EV folks.  They're all upstanding members of 
the anti-EV club.  Their minds are made up, and they don't want to be 
bothered with the facts.  I say don't waste your time on them.  Instead, 
invest it in the folks who still have open minds about EVs.  Thank goodness 
there are still some.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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[EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause

[brucedp5 via EV]

Green Halloween Costume Contest for a Chance to Win ...

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/10/31/a-halloween-treat-for-tesla-motors-inc-and-electri.aspx
A Halloween Treat for Tesla Motors Inc. and Electric Vehicle Proponents
By Beth McKenna | October 31, 2014

Perhaps, like me, you feel as if you're Bill Murray in the movie Groundhog
Day every time you read an article bashing electric vehicles, especially
Tesla Motors. Just as Murray's character woke up to the same day again and
again no matter what he did, you see the same comments again and again no
matter what the content of the article. Doesn't it seem as if one master
template is floating around for the EV and Tesla Haters to use? You've
probably seen it so many times you could repeat it in your sleep -- you
know, as your EV (if you have one) was conveniently charging away.

I'm not talking about those who simply hold different views that they
express civilly -- even vigorously -- such as believing fuel-cell vehicles
will (or should) rule the future roads for whatever reason, or that Tesla's
stock is too richly valued, for instance. There are certainly convincing
arguments for both of  those takes. No, I'm talking about Haters. 

Some of you have your Bill Murray costumes, so you're set to go today! In
the spirit of the holiday, join me as we help those who are considering
being an "EV Hater" this Halloween with their lines and costumes.

[image] Red Model S donning its white Halloween costume. Source: Tesla
Motors.


Line: "Why would those 'green folks' buy a Tesla Model S when they can buy a
Prius?!"

Costume suggestion: How-others-spend-their-money cop

This line is best pulled off by dipping into your Halloween goodies and
gobbling up something sour before uttering "green folks." 

Start out this thread by throwing in red-herring comments about politics, Al
Gore, and taxpayer dollars. Don't concern yourself with facts, as they
should never get in the way of a good story! No, it doesn't matter that it's
common for new technology to receive government funding. That Tesla returned
its government money is also irrelevant. 

Ditch your money-cop costume for a moment and don a yogi master get-up as
you repeat your mantra to yourself until you believe it: "Green folks are
the only ones who would want a Tesla or another EV, and all car buyers make
the choice of which car to buy based solely upon economics."

Of course, the non-Haters among you know that this "logic" is flawed.
However, even if it weren't, doesn't it seem fair that until folks of all
stripes need to explain or justify their consumer preferences, the "green
folks" should enjoy the same rights?


Line: "Tesla Model S's limited range is a problem."

Costume suggestion: Long-distance trucker

This costume will help you sound more convincing when you say this line as
if 50% of the American public are employed as truckers or traveling
salespeople regularly driving over several hundred miles per day.

The P85 Model S has a 265-mile range. Let's lop off 15% during poor driving
conditions. That's 225 miles.

Americans who drive passenger vehicles drive an average of 13,500 miles per
year, according to the Federal Highway Administration. That equates to 260
miles per week. We're talking one or two charges per week, which, for many
people, can conveniently be done overnight.

As for those occasional extended drives, you may be Super Bladder Man/Woman
or Super-Steady Blood Sugar Man/Woman (yes, these are other costume
possibilities, though you might scare kids), but many people stop after a
few hours on the road to eat, stretch, and/or answer the call of nature.
That's especially true of those with kids. A 20-minute break allows a Model
S to get enough juice at a Supercharger station for about 130 miles, while a
30-minute pit stop will provide power for roughly 170 miles. Granted, these
sites aren't conveniently located everywhere yet. So it should go without
saying that a Tesla EV, or any EV, isn't currently a good fit for some
people. 

As for Supercharger stations, Tesla is aggressively expanding its charging
network. By 2015, 98% of the U.S. population (and parts of Canada) will live
within the Model S rated range of a station, according to the company.
Granted, even when this coverage plan is achieved, a Tesla EV (or any other
EV) still won't be a good fit for some people. But this is true of every
auto or consumer product. 


Line: "The charging network doesn't compare to the fueling network for
vehicles with internal combustion engines."

Costume suggestion for those on the listening/reading end: The figure in
Edvard Munch's famous painting The Scream

[image] The Scream. Source: Wikipedia.

OK, so no costume suggestion comes to mind to pair with this line. However,
this oft-repeated line likely makes even the coolest folks on the listening
or reading end want to don a costume based on the figure in Edvard Munch's
The Scream.

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