Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Collin Kidder via EV]

Yeah, I saw it. I have never been a fan of Sandy and that video pretty much
cemented my low opinion of him. There has never been a larger Musk fanboy
than Sandy. I suppose I ought not argue as opinions about him are just
that. Overall Sandy and his company have done a lot of interesting things
but I just don't agree with him on quite a few points regarding Tesla and
Elon in particular. Still, his faulty takes on things are newsworthy.


On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 2:57 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

> I highly recommend that everybody see Munro's new utube video entitled
> 'Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!'
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl4VjvZu5os
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
>
>
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[David Heacock via EV]

 I think you left out the end of democracy, all the democrats jailed and 
executed, the end of the earth because climate will destroy us all, etc, etc.  
Is anyone out there comparing how our country was doing under Trump compared to 
our current situation where the terrorists are now taking over our college 
campuses and over 2 million illegals have entered our country and we have no 
idea where they are or what they are up to, to say nothing about the 10 million 
we know about who will soon be made voters for the democratic party?  Maybe you 
are good with $15 sandwiches and $5 gas but i kind of like the good old days 
four years ago when someone in the government actually cared about Americans.  
P.S. if you actually think Biden is running the country I have a bridge to sell 
you.  EVs are coming regardless of who is in charge because there are 
compelling reasons for buying them.  But when the government decides what kind 
of vehicle you are going to buy, where you kids must go to school, and destroys 
small business we are all going to suffer more than we do now and you doin't 
have a democracy.  Have a nice day.    
On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 08:41:09 PM PDT, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 5/6/2024 8:35 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:
>  Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
>eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country 
>would benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.
>
No Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Health care, EPA, 
Consumer Protection - or any other thing that directly benefits 
individual citizens.


___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

The president doesn’t have that kind of power. Congress is in charge of budget. 
I work for the government. The way congress makes you write a contract ties the 
government workers hands in many cases. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, May 6, 2024, 10:40 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  
wrote:

On 5/6/2024 8:35 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:
>  Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
>eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country 
>would benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.
>
No Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Health care, EPA, 
Consumer Protection - or any other thing that directly benefits 
individual citizens.


___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/




-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[jamie via EV]

www.britannica.com/topic/cult-of-personality


On 5/6/24 9:35 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:

  Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country would 
benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.
 On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 11:57:20 AM PDT, Rush via EV  
wrote:
  
  I highly recommend that everybody see Munro's new utube video entitled

'Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl4VjvZu5os

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

   
-- next part --

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Danny Ames via EV]

 Sandy Munro has the best rants. If it bleeds it leads. Showing how they spent 
lots of money on Tesla's in order to tear them down and analyze against the BS 
media that makes up these lies and plays on people's emotions. Danny Ames
On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 11:55:41 AM PDT, Rush via EV  
wrote:  
 
"Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!


 |

 |

 |

"

 I highly recommend that everybody see Munro's new utube video entitled
'Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl4VjvZu5os

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 5/6/2024 8:35 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:

  Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country would 
benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.

No Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Health care, EPA, 
Consumer Protection - or any other thing that directly benefits 
individual citizens.



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[David Heacock via EV]

 Let's make Elon the Vice President under Trump and have him in charge of 
eliminating waste in our government. Can you even imagine how our country would 
benefit?  Just give him two years.  Just sayin.  
On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 11:57:20 AM PDT, Rush via EV  
wrote:  
 
 I highly recommend that everybody see Munro's new utube video entitled
'Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl4VjvZu5os

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Rush via EV]

I highly recommend that everybody see Munro's new utube video entitled
'Sandy's take on the Tesla Layoffs!'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl4VjvZu5os

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Rush via EV]

-Original Message-
> EV List Lackey wrote -
> If I'm right about that, it could be in part because autopilot is
restricted by law here.  

Speaking of French road laws, does that stupid priorité à droite still
exist? It was so much fun to go as fast as possible into L'Etoile and make
all the drivers on the left stop because I had priorité... until there was
another driver on the right!

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV


___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Longtime Europe residents on the list may have better info, and I don't read 
every publication, but I haven't seen Tesla all over the media for accidents 
here the way it it has been in the US. 

If I'm right about that, it could be in part because autopilot is restricted 
by law here.  It can change lanes, but only on certain roads.  It's allowed 
to make only gradual turns, so I guess just following curves in the road. 
The driver can't take his hands off the wheel for very long - apparently an 
alarm sounds at 10 or 15 seconds.

Tesla would like to get the laws changed.  But I wonder how popular autonomy 
will be here if they do.  Europeans tend to be more active drivers and more 
connected to their cars.  I still see (hear) very few ICEVs with automatic 
transmissions, except for luxury cars.  Though it must be said that the 
Tesla Model 3 and Y are classified as luxury cars.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that 
 help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

-- Carl Sagan, "Pale Blue Dot"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

Sure, sounds logical but the car would have prevented it is the argument. Not 
saying who’s right because it’s never happened to me but it’s very hard to 
resist intervention when the cars in control IME. It’s never messed up with me 
but it sometimes waits longer than I am comfortable with before reacting.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, May 5, 2024, 12:05 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

Why wouldn't you disengage the autopilot if it was trying to kill you?... 
...then you get blamed for the accident if you can't prevent it? 

    On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 05:43:25 AM PDT, Ken Olum via EV 
 wrote:  
 
   From: paul dove 
  Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 16:02:36 + (UTC)

  >From what I've read it's more often the driver who intervenes and shuts down 
Autopilot thus causing the accident.

  Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.
  
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg

The problem with this data is that it doesn't control for the conditions
in which drivers do and don't use autopilot.  One explanation for a
lower crash rate with autopilot on would be that drivers use it in
situations where accidents are less likely.

                                        Ken
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/




-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Why wouldn't you disengage the autopilot if it was trying to kill you?... 
...then you get blamed for the accident if you can't prevent it? 

On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 05:43:25 AM PDT, Ken Olum via EV 
 wrote:  
 
   From: paul dove 
  Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 16:02:36 + (UTC)

  >From what I've read it's more often the driver who intervenes and shuts down 
Autopilot thus causing the accident.

  Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.
  
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg

The problem with this data is that it doesn't control for the conditions
in which drivers do and don't use autopilot.  One explanation for a
lower crash rate with autopilot on would be that drivers use it in
situations where accidents are less likely.

                                        Ken
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Ken Olum via EV]

   From: paul dove 
   Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 16:02:36 + (UTC)

   >From what I've read it's more often the driver who intervenes and shuts 
down Autopilot thus causing the accident.

   Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.
   
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg

The problem with this data is that it doesn't control for the conditions
in which drivers do and don't use autopilot.  One explanation for a
lower crash rate with autopilot on would be that drivers use it in
situations where accidents are less likely.

Ken
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 4 May 2024 at 12:05, paul dove via EV wrote:

> at some point they take away your license. What then?

Here in France we have a fix for that.  It's a vehicle class called VSP - 
voitures sans permis.  That's literally "cars without licenses," which 
refers to the drivers rather than the cars.

If you've lost your license - from too many violations, drunk driving, age, 
whatever - you're allowed to drive a VSP.

In some ways, a VSP is similar to a Comuta-Car  It's about the same length 
(3m) and about the same motor power (6kW).  It has 2 seats and some space in 
the back for groceries. It's a little slower (top speed limited to 45 km/h) 
and lighter (max weight 425kg) than the C-car.

Traditionally VSPs were powered by Asian-made gas and diesel small-tractor 
engines, but electric VSPs are growing in popularity.

The idea seems to be that if you run into someone, you can't do much damage 
at 425kg and 45 km/h.  And if you get in someone's way and get mowed down, 
you and the car will be the crash energy absorber.  I don't like to think 
too much about that "feature."  :-(

Their big advantage over any current "self driving" car, EV or ICEV, is 
cost.  Typical cost is around 10-11k euros, in a range from about 8k to 
about 15k.  So you can buy 3 or 4 VSPs for the cost of the cheapest Tesla, 
even without the Tesla's autonomy software subscription  

That's a good thing, since most of the folks who need them here (I know one) 
are lucky to even have 10k euros for a car.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" 
 Then later they say, "Oh."

  -- Found on the Net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

> I am with you John but at some point they take away your license.
> What then? Friend, relatives, taxi, bus? A self driving car could
> allow independence longer.

Ah, but will someone without a driver's license be *allowed* to drive a fully 
self driving car?

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Paul

Do you think you could find a report that shows deaths from autopilot ? It 
would be more useful to compare that with deaths overall. But, to be useful, 
one would also have to know how to normalize the numbers, like by miles driven 
of teslas vs other vehicles.

(I apologize for not doing this research myself, but i think you will find it 
much more quickly.)

Peri




From: paul dove 
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 17:02
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman; EV List Lackey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

From what I’ve read it’s more often the driver who intervenes and shuts down 
Autopilot thus causing the accident. 

Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.

https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg



Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Saturday, May 4, 2024, 9:16 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:
>
> I would love to have FSD. Clearly not in it's correct state but when the risk 
> of death from an accident is less than the risk if an attentive human were in 
> control.
>
> Currently, FSD seems to do very well. Musk is probably right that it reduces 
> accidents overall. But most accidents don't kill the occupants, so i discount 
> that metric. When FSD fails, it does so catastrophically. A human might not 
> avoid the final impact but most likely will brake hard and reduce the 
> collision.
>
> Peri
> 
> From: Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
> Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 05:29
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Lawrence Winiarski; EV List Lackey
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments
>
> Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
> care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid 
> topic for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor 
> plumbing, but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate 
> reduction for self driving cars?
> Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
> postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
> 0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
> always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.
>    On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
>  wrote: 
> Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
> should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company. 
>   
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/ceb218e1/attachment.htm>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/8cf8bf05/attachment.htm>
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/9f5fbf69/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

From what I’ve read it’s more often the driver who intervenes and shuts down 
Autopilot thus causing the accident. 
Tesla keeps track of anyone actually cares.
https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto/safety-report-2023-mobile.jpg


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, May 4, 2024, 9:16 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

I would love to have FSD. Clearly not in it's correct state but when the risk 
of death from an accident is less than the risk if an attentive human were in 
control.

Currently, FSD seems to do very well. Musk is probably right that it reduces 
accidents overall. But most accidents don't kill the occupants, so i discount 
that metric. When FSD fails, it does so catastrophically. A human might not 
avoid the final impact but most likely will brake hard and reduce the collision.

Peri

From: Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 05:29
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski; EV List Lackey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.
   On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote: 
Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company. 
  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/ceb218e1/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/8cf8bf05/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/




-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/6ef48e9a/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[jim--- via EV]

$3,000 is nothing.  Medical costs for a major injury are FAR higher than almost 
any car repair.  Spending $100K in the first day is not all that hard to do.

Jim




-Original Message-
From: "paul dove via EV" 
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 05:03
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" , "EV List Lackey" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

You think death is what insurance companies care about when it costs $3000 to 
get a bumper repaired. A large percentage of people would be better off with 
self driving cars. Then they could look at their phone without consequences 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, May 3, 2024, 11:29 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.

  On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company.  


  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/ceb218e1/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/




-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/e01b3231/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I would love to have FSD. Clearly not in it's correct state but when the risk 
of death from an accident is less than the risk if an attentive human were in 
control.

Currently, FSD seems to do very well. Musk is probably right that it reduces 
accidents overall. But most accidents don't kill the occupants, so i discount 
that metric. When FSD fails, it does so catastrophically. A human might not 
avoid the final impact but most likely will brake hard and reduce the collision.

Peri

From: Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2024 05:29
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski; EV List Lackey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.
   On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote: 
Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company. 
  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/ceb218e1/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240504/8cf8bf05/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

You think death is what insurance companies care about when it costs $3000 to 
get a bumper repaired. A large percentage of people would be better off with 
self driving cars. Then they could look at their phone without consequences 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, May 3, 2024, 11:29 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.

  On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company.  


  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/




-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

I am with you John but at some point they take away your license. What then? 
Friend, relatives, taxi, bus? A self driving car could allow independence 
longer.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, May 3, 2024, 11:42 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  
wrote:

On 5/3/2024 9:29 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
> care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid 
> topic for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor 
> plumbing, but what do insurance companies say?  

I want it to be available within the next 10 years.
I want to be able to continue being independent - even when my 
eyesight/reaction times are no longer good enough to drive.
I don't live in a city.  I live out in the country, with significant 
drives to just about anything.


___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/




-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 5/3/2024 9:29 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, but what do insurance companies say?   


I want it to be available within the next 10 years.
I want to be able to continue being independent - even when my 
eyesight/reaction times are no longer good enough to drive.
I don't live in a city.  I live out in the country, with significant 
drives to just about anything.



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Here's a dumb question/Poll:  I'd be curious how many people actually really 
care about fully self driving to demand it in their car?  Is that a valid topic 
for EVDL?  I'm sure the Tesla Fanboys love it more than indoor plumbing, 
but what do insurance companies say?   Do they give a rate reduction for self 
driving cars?
Personally, I'm too cheap to be on the bleeding edge and even then I would 
postpone it and till the death rate gets down, but the fact is I'm managing a 
0% death rate so far (knock on wood) so it'llbe hard to beat that, and I've 
always had a thing about controlling my own destiny.

   On Friday, May 3, 2024 at 08:24:31 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company.  


  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Thanks for the interesting comments in this thread, but it isn't about Tesla 
as a business, or Teslas as cars that owners like.  It's about the future of 
EVs.

We're seeing political trends in much of the world, especially the US and 
Europe, that may slow or even reverse progress in EV adoption.

Now one of the early drivers of that progress, Tesla, has announced that we 
should henceforth think of them as an AI and robotics company.  

You can read the exact words here:

https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2024/04/23/tesla-tsla-q1-2024-
earnings-call-transcript/

or https://v.gd/2HnDwt

They've acted on that statement by literally more than decimating their EV 
staff.  They've dismissed *entire departments* devoted to vehicle and 
battery development, and EV charging.

This isn't good news for EVs.  I posted it because I think we should be 
paying attention.  

I've been following EV progress since the 1960s.  I've seen advances and 
retreats.  Each time EVs have gotten further before being slapped down.  
This latest cycle is the furthest they've progressed, but don't assume that 
another reversal is impossible.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Dime que temes y te dire quien eres. (Tell me what you fear, and 
 I'll tell you who you are.)

   -- Spanish proverb

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Josh Landess via EV]

Hi,

I've received but not often read this list, so I don't know if you've 
been as unfair to Tesla as Rush accused you of, but your response below 
seems pretty even-handed.  I was surprised that Rush made such personal 
comments to you.  Unless you've been over-the-top unfair to Tesla, then 
this seems wrong.


Josh


On 5/1/2024 12:43 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 30 Apr 2024 at 20:47, Rush via EV wrote:


Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming

Nah.  Tesla doesn't make an EV that meets my needs, but I'm actually OK with
them in most ways.

I can't stomach Elon Musk, but that's strictly personal, so who cares?

A few things that you MIGHT care about:

1. Musk's public persona is costing Tesla customers.  Surveys show it.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/elon-musk-turning-off-tesla-buyers-report/

2. Musk seems to be going all-in for autonomy and "AI," and losing focus on
the EV part.

Witness the recent layoffs.  Also, in Tesla's recent earnings call, someone
asked about the new 4680 battery cells.  Musk said they're not "super
important."  Really?

https://insideevs.com/news/717345/tesla-q1-2024-earnings-analysis/

3. Musk spends more time than ever s***posting on Twitter.  That's time he's
not spending on Tesla.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-use-increase-since-buying-
company-2022-11

or https://v.gd/suQKQk

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2023/10/17/post-musk-twitter-at-
least-one-stat-is-up/

or https://v.gd/15IY8Y

Maybe none of that matters much, now that other automakers have picked up
the EV torch and are running with it.

If you think it does, then the posts bring it to your attention

If you don't, just ignore the posts.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

  Most members of congress don't see their constituents as peers. They
  see them as fans. These politicans aren't public servants, they're
  public embarrassments.

-- Brian Karem

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/


___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

> As I understand AI "Training" (and I'm pretty much an idiot here) you have a 
> given neural net which is initially filled with hundreds of GB  random data, 
> then you run input data through itand get the result.So I guess you input 
> a picture of a "bicycle" and it spits out "doggie", and you say "bad 
> computer", here is how you adjust  your net values to becloser to the result 
> "bicycle".

Think of it like the very simplest pachinko machine:

https://www.instructables.com/Pachinko-Machine/

…but typically very large.  The “hundreds of GB of random data” are the 
_likelihoods_ of the ball going left or right at each junction.  You drop a 
ball in somewhere along the top (the “somewhere” is the value of the input 
data), and it falls through the pins, and comes out somewhere at the bottom 
(that “somewhere” is the output data).

When you’re _training_ the machine, you already know what a “good” output is, 
for any given input.  So you drop the ball in the top, let it bounce its way 
threw off various pins, and see where it comes out on the bottom.  If the 
output was “good,” you increase the weightings on each of the bounce directions 
of each of the pins it hit.  Instead of 50%/50% left/right, if the ball went 
left, now it’s 51%/49%, for that pin.  And so on for each pin that the ball hit 
on its way down.  If the output was “bad,” you decrease the weightings for each 
pin/direction on the path traveled.  Repeat many many times, and you wind up 
with a system which produces fairly replicable results.  So, this is the 
“training” mechanism.  It’s fairly complicated, and requires quite a bit of 
hardware and time.

Now, take a snapshot of all of those probabilities and paths.  Some paths have 
zero probability of being exercised, so you can trim those out of the model, 
making it smaller.  Some paths have very low probability, so you can decide 
whether to prune them or not, depending how compact you need your model to be.  
Now you have a much smaller model.  You can fit that in a very simple machine, 
which doesn’t need to understand the difference between “good” and “bad,” and 
doesn’t ever need to adjust any probabilities.  Not only is it simple, it’s 
also fast and cheap.  When you run it, it will always give you the same results 
with the same probabilities, but it will never “learn” anything new.  This is 
“inference.”

So, training requires very expensive hardware, and a lot of time.  Like, 
thousands of these:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=nvidia+a100+80gb&_sacat=0=Nvdia&_dcat=27386=nc_ItemCondition=1000
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/a100/

…for many weeks, for a large complicated model.  So, training can cost tens or 
hundreds of millions of dollars, for big models.

Inference can be done very inexpensively.  If you have a recent Apple computer, 
you’ve already got excellent inference hardware built in.  This has very good 
price/performance, if you don’t want to use an Apple:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=nvidia+RTX+4090&_sacat=0&_odkw=geforce+RTX+4090&_osacat=0

If you want to buy something stand-alone, something like this works very well:

https://www.amazon.com/NVIDIA-Jetson-Orin-64GB-Developer/dp/B0BYGB3WV4?th=1

Or at a smaller scale, this also has excellent price-performance, if you want 
to integrate it into a project, like a car:

https://coral.ai/products/m2-accelerator-dual-edgetpu/

But the real price/performance killer is the Apple Mac Studio with the 76-core 
GPU and 192gb of RAM:

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-studio/24-core-cpu-60-core-gpu-32-core-neural-engine-64gb-memory-1tb#

So, inference can be done with good price/performance anywhere from $20 to 
$6600, mostly depending on the size of the model (amount of RAM to hold it in 
memory) you want to load.

-Bill

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 5/2/2024 11:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

The question i have is, how does the "decider" know when the driver is correct 
versus the algorithm ? In others words, what keeps it from learning human error ?


One of the things they do is watch for "interventions".  i.e. the User 
suddenly takes over.  That indicates something went wrong.  They add 
that case to the training, as well as variations of it - since they can 
now also create simulated data to train the AI with.

It also gets trained with a lot of "just normal driving" data.

One of the interesting things that happened when they switched to an all 
AI setup, is that the AI figured out what a Stop Sign meant without that 
having to be explicitly forced in the training.



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That's pretty much what i suspect: that while you are driving, you are teaching 
the system. Not the one in your car, but the global corporate one.

The question i have is, how does the "decider" know when the driver is correct 
versus the algorithm ? In others words, what keeps it from learning human error 
?

I'll add: something that results in an accident or hard breaking would be easy 
to filter out. But what about swerving to avoid a sharp object when the camera 
might have thought it harmless to the tires ?

Peri 



From: Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 18:45
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski; EV List Lackey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

As I understand AI "Training" (and I'm pretty much an idiot here) you have a 
given neural net which is initially filled with hundreds of GB  random data, 
then you run input data through itand get the result.    So I guess you input a 
picture of a "bicycle" and it spits out "doggie", and you say "bad computer", 
here is how you adjust  your net values to becloser to the result "bicycle".   
And you do this over and over and over and over and it amazingly gradually 
starts to work which shows like von neumann's elephant 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_elephantExcept instead of 4 free 
parameters, you literally have 1 trillion.
    So following this line of thought, while you are driving your Tesla, the 
neuralnet could be taking in the data and "learning" from you by "watching" you 
drive.    So, I guess this would be the natural way it would "learn"  So I 
suppose that they wouldn't necessarilyneed to be "selling" the data as they 
could be internally using it to improve their own AI. 
The stupid "captcha" thing just annoyed me when I figured it out (click on all 
the squares with a bicycle) because it was presented as a way to defeat AI when 
in hindsight it was obviouslybeing used to "train" AI and the sociopaths were 
wasting millions of man hours of innocent people to get what they wanted for 
free.
 Anyway, I suppose some people don't mind and they welcome their new Tesla 
overlords, but I'm starting to question why they seem to be masking their true 
motivations.
If I'm starting to sound like some sort of conspiracy theorist, just ignore me. 
 




    On Thursday, May 2, 2024 at 03:57:39 AM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

On 2 May 2024 at 5:19, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> I honestly could care less about self driving and have absolutely no
> desire to be an expendable human guinea pig.(as for other guinea
> pigs...did you know this?    "Select all the squares that have a
> traffic light".I should have known better.
Funny you should mention that.
"Elon Musk wants to turn Tesla´s fleet into AWS for AI - would it work? / 
`That´s 100 gigawatts of inference compute, distributed all around the 
world,´ Musk said. "
https://www.theverge.com/24139142/elon-musk-tesla-aws-distributed-compute-
network-ai
or https://v.gd/0Bf0yY
That this may be just Elon Musk spitballing again.
PS - since when is "compute" a noun?  :-\
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their 
    homes electrical energy too cheap to meter.
                      -- Lewis Strauss, Atomic Energy Commission, 1954
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240502/15068ba8/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240502/13e9e611/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

I guess who is to decide what is "error" and what is not.    I suppose that's 
part of the problem. Is hitting a curb to avoid hitting a passenger an 
"error"?    
If a deer runs out in front of the car do you swerve?   Suppose you decide to 
enter your tesla at the local demolition derby and are constantly getting boo'd?

   On Thursday, May 2, 2024 at 11:32:36 AM PDT, Peri Hartman 
 wrote:  
 
 That's pretty much what i suspect: that while you are driving, you are 
teaching the system. Not the one in your car, but the global corporate one.
The question i have is, how does the "decider" know when the driver is correct 
versus the algorithm ? In others words, what keeps it from learning human error 
?
I'll add: something that results in an accident or hard breaking would be easy 
to filter out. But what about swerving to avoid a sharp object when the camera 
might have thought it harmless to the tires ?
Peri 

From: Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 18:45
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski; EV List Lackey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

As I understand AI "Training" (and I'm pretty much an idiot here) you have a 
given neural net which is initially filled with hundreds of GB  random data, 
then you run input data through itand get the result.    So I guess you input a 
picture of a "bicycle" and it spits out "doggie", and you say "bad computer", 
here is how you adjust  your net values to becloser to the result "bicycle".   
And you do this over and over and over and over and it amazingly gradually 
starts to work which shows like von neumann's elephant 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_elephantExcept instead of 4 free 
parameters, you literally have 1 trillion.
    So following this line of thought, while you are driving your Tesla, the 
neuralnet could be taking in the data and "learning" from you by "watching" you 
drive.    So, I guess this would be the natural way it would "learn"  So I 
suppose that they wouldn't necessarilyneed to be "selling" the data as they 
could be internally using it to improve their own AI.  The stupid "captcha" 
thing just annoyed me when I figured it out (click on all the squares with a 
bicycle) because it was presented as a way to defeat AI when in hindsight it 
was obviouslybeing used to "train" AI and the sociopaths were wasting millions 
of man hours of innocent people to get what they wanted for free.  Anyway, 
I suppose some people don't mind and they welcome their new Tesla overlords, 
but I'm starting to question why they seem to be masking their true motivations.
If I'm starting to sound like some sort of conspiracy theorist, just ignore me. 
 




    On Thursday, May 2, 2024 at 03:57:39 AM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 2 May 2024 at 5:19, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:> I honestly could care 
less about self driving and have absolutely no
> desire to be an expendable human guinea pig.(as for other guinea
> pigs...did you know this?    "Select all the squares that have a
> traffic light".I should have known better. Funny you should mention 
> that."Elon Musk wants to turn Tesla´s fleet into AWS for AI - would it work? 
> / 
`That´s 100 gigawatts of inference compute, distributed all around the 
world,´ Musk said. 
"https://www.theverge.com/24139142/elon-musk-tesla-aws-distributed-compute-
network-aior https://v.gd/0Bf0yYThat this may be just Elon Musk spitballing 
again.PS - since when is "compute" a noun?  :-\David Roden, EVDL moderator & 
general lackeyTo reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt= = = = = = = = = = 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =     It is not too much to 
expect that our children will enjoy in their 
    homes electrical energy too cheap to meter.                      -- Lewis 
Strauss, Atomic Energy Commission, 1954
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240502/15068ba8/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240502/d64b2232/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

Science fiction writer Ron Goulart loves to put examples of rogue technology in 
his stories, usually in humorous circumstances. One relevant example is where a 
guy comes out of the bar, and finds his car won't let him in.

Man: "Unlock the door, Ai."
Car: "Drinking again, I see."
Man: "What? Open the door, dammit!"
Car: "Ain't gonna happen, pal. Your wife said not to let you in if you've been 
drinking."
Man: " Open up, or I'll break a window to get in!"
Car: "Now, now. I'd just call the cops and have you arrested for breaking and 
entering. Tell you what. There's an all-night diner just a couple miles down 
the road. You walk there and get a cup off coffee to sober up. I'll meet you 
there. Bye, bye!"
And the car drives off by itself.

As usual, SF writers are way ahead of their time.

Too much technology, rushed to market too quickly, with too little testing is 
likely to run into the law of unintended consequences.

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

As I understand AI "Training" (and I'm pretty much an idiot here) you have a 
given neural net which is initially filled with hundreds of GB  random data, 
then you run input data through itand get the result.    So I guess you input a 
picture of a "bicycle" and it spits out "doggie", and you say "bad computer", 
here is how you adjust  your net values to becloser to the result "bicycle".   
And you do this over and over and over and over and it amazingly gradually 
starts to work which shows like von neumann's elephant 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%27s_elephantExcept instead of 4 free 
parameters, you literally have 1 trillion.
    So following this line of thought, while you are driving your Tesla, the 
neuralnet could be taking in the data and "learning" from you by "watching" you 
drive.    So, I guess this would be the natural way it would "learn"  So I 
suppose that they wouldn't necessarilyneed to be "selling" the data as they 
could be internally using it to improve their own AI.  

The stupid "captcha" thing just annoyed me when I figured it out (click on all 
the squares with a bicycle) because it was presented as a way to defeat AI when 
in hindsight it was obviouslybeing used to "train" AI and the sociopaths were 
wasting millions of man hours of innocent people to get what they wanted for 
free. 

 Anyway, I suppose some people don't mind and they welcome their new Tesla 
overlords, but I'm starting to question why they seem to be masking their true 
motivations.
If I'm starting to sound like some sort of conspiracy theorist, just ignore me. 
 






 

On Thursday, May 2, 2024 at 03:57:39 AM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 2 May 2024 at 5:19, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

> I honestly could care less about self driving and have absolutely no
> desire to be an expendable human guinea pig.(as for other guinea
> pigs...did you know this?    "Select all the squares that have a
> traffic light".I should have known better. 

Funny you should mention that.

"Elon Musk wants to turn Tesla´s fleet into AWS for AI - would it work? / 
`That´s 100 gigawatts of inference compute, distributed all around the 
world,´ Musk said. "

https://www.theverge.com/24139142/elon-musk-tesla-aws-distributed-compute-
network-ai

or https://v.gd/0Bf0yY

That this may be just Elon Musk spitballing again.

PS - since when is "compute" a noun?  :-\

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their 
    homes electrical energy too cheap to meter.

                      -- Lewis Strauss, Atomic Energy Commission, 1954
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[John McIntire via EV]

I wondered if this reference would show up. I can't be this only one thinking 
this sounds too familiar. The genie is out of the bottlewe're in 
for a rough ride so buckle up folks.

John M

"Money doesn't talk, it swears"--Bob Dylan

I suppose AI door locks are next.

Open the Tesla doorsopen the Tesla doors..
I'm sorry I can't do that Dave.    I know that you were planning on doing the 
driving yourself instead of letting me do it for you, and that is something I 
cannot allow to happenWhat's more I saw that you were talking with your 
wife about a different brand of car.    The mission to Mars is too important to 
allow you to jeopardize it.


___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 2 May 2024 at 5:19, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

> I honestly could care less about self driving and have absolutely no
> desire to be an expendable human guinea pig.(as for other guinea
> pigs...did you know this?    "Select all the squares that have a
> traffic light".I should have known better. 

Funny you should mention that.

"Elon Musk wants to turn Tesla´s fleet into AWS for AI - would it work? / 
`That´s 100 gigawatts of inference compute, distributed all around the 
world,´ Musk said. "

https://www.theverge.com/24139142/elon-musk-tesla-aws-distributed-compute-
network-ai

or https://v.gd/0Bf0yY

That this may be just Elon Musk spitballing again.

PS - since when is "compute" a noun?  :-\

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their 
 homes electrical energy too cheap to meter.

   -- Lewis Strauss, Atomic Energy Commission, 1954
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Interesting choices of what departments to axe.    I honestly could care less 
about self driving and have absolutely no desire to be an expendable human 
guinea pig.(as for other guinea pigs...did you know this?    "Select all the 
squares that have a traffic light".I should have known better.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/12nn9kt/were_we_training_ai_without_knowing_it/

I suppose AI door locks are next.

Open the Tesla doorsopen the Tesla doors..
I'm sorry I can't do that Dave.    I know that you were planning on doing the 
driving yourself instead of letting me do it for you, and that is something I 
cannot allow to happenWhat's more I saw that you were talking with your 
wife about a different brand of car.    The mission to Mars is too important to 
allow you to jeopardize it.
 


On Wednesday, May 1, 2024 at 03:03:46 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 It's not over yet. - Tesla is still laying off staff.

"Electrek has learned that Musk also gutted Tesla´s cathode material 
manufacturing team in Texas.

"It started with Anthony Thurston, Senior Manager, Cathode Materials & 
Manufacturing at Tesla, earlier this month [sic], but Electrek has learned 
that Musk has now let go of most of the team.. [...]

"Several sources confirmed that there are rumors around Tesla that the 
vehicle engineering and design departments are next. [...]

"Tesla has already backed out of leases for new Supercharger stations."

https://electrek.co/2024/05/01/elon-musk-throwing-weight-tesla-wrecking-
ball/

or https://v.gd/97KZlV

-

A little wild spitballing here.  Please note that I have absolutely NO 
notion that this is correct.  I'm just looking at what's happening and 
speculating.  Feel free to counter / correct as you will.  

During the April Tesla investors' call, Musk said, "We should be thought of 
as an AI robotics company."  

What if he's cutting EV design, manufacturing, and charging, so Tesla can 
put more resources into AI and robotics?  

I can even (really wild speculation here) imagine Tesla selling all or part 
of their EV manufacturing and charging businesses to another automaker, to 
raise still more cash for developing AI and robotics.

Again, total speculation - but that's the kind of crazy all-or-nothing bet 
that Musk is (in)famous for, no?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    This song is copyrighted in US, under Seal of Copyright #154085, 
    for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singing it without 
    our permission will be mighty good friends of ours, 'cause we 
    don't give a darn. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. 
    Yodel it. We wrote it. That's all we wanted to do.

                                    -- Woody Guthrie, Songbook, 1930

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

It's not over yet. - Tesla is still laying off staff.

"Electrek has learned that Musk also gutted Tesla´s cathode material 
manufacturing team in Texas.

"It started with Anthony Thurston, Senior Manager, Cathode Materials & 
Manufacturing at Tesla, earlier this month [sic], but Electrek has learned 
that Musk has now let go of most of the team.. [...]

"Several sources confirmed that there are rumors around Tesla that the 
vehicle engineering and design departments are next. [...]

"Tesla has already backed out of leases for new Supercharger stations."

https://electrek.co/2024/05/01/elon-musk-throwing-weight-tesla-wrecking-
ball/

or https://v.gd/97KZlV

-

A little wild spitballing here.  Please note that I have absolutely NO 
notion that this is correct.  I'm just looking at what's happening and 
speculating.  Feel free to counter / correct as you will.  

During the April Tesla investors' call, Musk said, "We should be thought of 
as an AI robotics company."  

What if he's cutting EV design, manufacturing, and charging, so Tesla can 
put more resources into AI and robotics?  

I can even (really wild speculation here) imagine Tesla selling all or part 
of their EV manufacturing and charging businesses to another automaker, to 
raise still more cash for developing AI and robotics.

Again, total speculation - but that's the kind of crazy all-or-nothing bet 
that Musk is (in)famous for, no?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 This song is copyrighted in US, under Seal of Copyright #154085, 
 for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singing it without 
 our permission will be mighty good friends of ours, 'cause we 
 don't give a darn. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. 
 Yodel it. We wrote it. That's all we wanted to do.

-- Woody Guthrie, Songbook, 1930

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Peter Thompson via EV]

Hi Folks,

I normally don't join in on the debates/flamewars. In this case, I feel 
I must.


For starters, I work for Chargepoint as one of the standards development 
team. I'm one of the chairs of JWG1 (which makes ISO 15118-2).
I deal with a LOT of different EVs as part of our interoperability 
testing, won't name names due to NDAs, but it's just about all of them. 
I get to see the pre-production units with warts and all.


*Personal opinion:
*I haven't built up the cash to buy a Tesla, and instead I own a 2016 VW 
eGolf. Nice city car. I was seriously looking into buying one of the 
Hertz Teslas, but the cash hasn't been there.


Now, I won't buy one. I have the cash, but no way.

I used to be a bit jealous of the Tesla charging network, but now I fear 
for its collapse.


I feel this is a slow-motion train-wreck that will imperil the EV 
adoption in the US.


*Back on thread
*While David did inject some opinion into his reporting, he did make it 
clear that it was his opinion. So I'm going to side with him on this 
particular business.  I've got several friends at Tesla (at least I 
think they are still there), and this sort of mass-layoff will only 
drive away the stellar talent Tesla is well known for.


Tesla has done a lot of good things - and no company is perfect. I 
really, really hope that this move will work out, and will improve the 
industry. Yet, I'm also a skeptic, and worry that this won't work out.


Thanks for listening.
    Peter
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

Honestly, I’m pretty much completely with David on this one.  He hasn’t showed 
any bias at all, he’s just posted news articles that we should all care about, 
about problems that we should all care about.

I’ve had several Teslas, and just had another as a rental car last week.  Build 
quality has always been problematic, and the level of service that made up for 
it in the Model X days is long gone.  Some of that is just underinvestment, and 
some of it is actual malfeasance:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

Autopilot is vastly oversold, and has been consistently misrepresented.  Yes, 
it works much of the time; but when it doesn’t, people die:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/26/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash

Six or eight years ago, Tesla was the only option if you wanted a decent EV, 
and the self-driving was the cherry on top.  And that came with a significant 
price-tag.  Everyone’s hope, I think, was that Tesla would be able to deliver 
future generations of lower-cost cars while continuously improving software.  
And maybe that’s happening, but certainly not to the degree promised, and more 
experienced car makers are catching up.  The world is changing quickly, as I 
think we all hoped it would.  I don’t claim that any other manufacturer has 
overtaken Tesla across the board, but there are now a lot of very good options, 
from Ford, from BYD, from Polestar, all the way down to things like the 
Microlino, which Tesla could have built in their sleep… but didn't.  The 
Cybertruck is a disaster, and now they’re puling the plug on Supercharger 
network development, which has always been their core strength.  These are not 
trivial problems, and they’re not made better by being chained to the Twitter 
boat-anchor.  Musk has surrounded himself with sycophantic yes-men, and 
convinced himself that he’s a genius.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/09/elon-musk-texts-twitter-trial-jack-dorsey/671619/
https://fortune.com/2024/01/19/behind-elon-musks-chaotic-twitter-takeover-yes-men-zoe-schiffer/
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/09/elon-musk-texts-twitter
https://futurism.com/chris-sacca-elon-musk-sycophants

Meanwhile, I’m still on the waiting list for a terra-cotta solar tile, FOURTEEN 
YEARS ON, and now there are at least three other manufacturers who’ve actually 
shipped.  Meanwhile, SpaceX has received sixteen billion dollars of federal 
money and cluttered the sky, and Tesla’s gotten more than three billion in 
grants and subsidies, over and above the loans.  So this isn’t an “entrepreneur 
made good” story.

There are some extraordinary people who work, and have worked, at Tesla and 
SpaceX, and a lot of good is happening.  There are a lot of good things that 
wouldn’t have happened if Tesla hadn’t pushed forward.  Pre-Twitter-bozo-era, 
Musk has, occasionally, said some really right-thinking and forward-thinking 
things.  Now he mostly rants embarrassingly, wastes money, and begs for more.

If I needed a new car right now, I _might_ get a Model 3, but the ones I’ve 
driven have been a really far cry from the quality of my 2017 Model X.  
Meanwhile, my Ford EVs have been low-drama, and I’ve gotten real visceral 
enjoyment out of an electric Renault.  My Microlino is supposed to be delivered 
this month, we’ll see how that goes.  But mostly, all this has been turning me 
into a bicycle person.  I need an actual SUV maybe once a year.  I’m on my bike 
four or five times a year.  And like my Smart, I only need to charge the bike 
once a week.

Anyway, I’m happy to hear what different people on the list think.  I don’t 
think we need to quell debate.  I’m curious what y’all are up to, and where you 
think things are going.

-Bill

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Overwhelming?  Prejudice? Hatred?   C'mon don't be afraid to say what you 
really think!
Wow, nothing brings on the emotions like cars huh? Say what you want about 
my wife and kids and my dog butdon't you dare say anything about my car!
Anyway If i can pick and choose what information I'd like, then I'd like more 
#2 please and less #1 and #3   



On Wednesday, May 1, 2024 at 09:44:42 AM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 30 Apr 2024 at 20:47, Rush via EV wrote:

> Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming

Nah.  Tesla doesn't make an EV that meets my needs, but I'm actually OK with 
them in most ways.  

I can't stomach Elon Musk, but that's strictly personal, so who cares?

A few things that you MIGHT care about: 

1. Musk's public persona is costing Tesla customers.  Surveys show it.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/elon-musk-turning-off-tesla-buyers-report/

2. Musk seems to be going all-in for autonomy and "AI," and losing focus on 
the EV part.  

Witness the recent layoffs.  Also, in Tesla's recent earnings call, someone 
asked about the new 4680 battery cells.  Musk said they're not "super 
important."  Really?

https://insideevs.com/news/717345/tesla-q1-2024-earnings-analysis/

3. Musk spends more time than ever s***posting on Twitter.  That's time he's 
not spending on Tesla. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-use-increase-since-buying-
company-2022-11

or https://v.gd/suQKQk

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2023/10/17/post-musk-twitter-at-
least-one-stat-is-up/

or https://v.gd/15IY8Y

Maybe none of that matters much, now that other automakers have picked up 
the EV torch and are running with it.  

If you think it does, then the posts bring it to your attention 

If you don't, just ignore the posts.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    Most members of congress don't see their constituents as peers. They 
    see them as fans. These politicans aren't public servants, they're 
    public embarrassments.

                                                          -- Brian Karem

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 30 Apr 2024 at 20:47, Rush via EV wrote:

> Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming

Nah.  Tesla doesn't make an EV that meets my needs, but I'm actually OK with 
them in most ways.  

I can't stomach Elon Musk, but that's strictly personal, so who cares?

A few things that you MIGHT care about: 

1. Musk's public persona is costing Tesla customers.  Surveys show it.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/elon-musk-turning-off-tesla-buyers-report/

2. Musk seems to be going all-in for autonomy and "AI," and losing focus on 
the EV part.  

Witness the recent layoffs.  Also, in Tesla's recent earnings call, someone 
asked about the new 4680 battery cells.  Musk said they're not "super 
important."  Really?

https://insideevs.com/news/717345/tesla-q1-2024-earnings-analysis/

3. Musk spends more time than ever s***posting on Twitter.  That's time he's 
not spending on Tesla. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-use-increase-since-buying-
company-2022-11

or https://v.gd/suQKQk

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2023/10/17/post-musk-twitter-at-
least-one-stat-is-up/

or https://v.gd/15IY8Y

Maybe none of that matters much, now that other automakers have picked up 
the EV torch and are running with it.  

If you think it does, then the posts bring it to your attention 

If you don't, just ignore the posts.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Most members of congress don't see their constituents as peers. They 
 see them as fans. These politicans aren't public servants, they're 
 public embarrassments.

   -- Brian Karem

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV]

I support 100% Rush’s comments.

Marco


Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2024, at 7:05 AM, Rush via EV  wrote:
> 
> David -
> 
> Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that it 
> is
> actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
> engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla and
> Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
> against the EVDL List Conventions.
> 
> You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for the
> rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: EV List Lackey 
>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments
>> 
>> Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:
>> 
>> - Vehicle and new product development
>> 
>> - EV charging
>> 
>> - Public policy
>> 
>> Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the
> workforce
>> (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
>> development teams and their directors.
>> 
>> The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.
>> 
>> As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
>> governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to 
>> have
>> bet their future on.
>> 
>> This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I 
>> know?
>> 
>> In more detail:
>> 
>> 1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new 
>> product
>> introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since
> 2013.
>> 
>> 2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off her
> entire
>> team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.
>> 
>> 3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,
> resigned
>> earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy team.
>> 
>> Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need
> to be
>> absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on exec
> staff
>> are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."
>> 
>> Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of Tesla's
>> other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.
>> 
>> More info:
>> 
>> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
>> superchargers-new-vehicles/
>> 
>> or https://v.gd/lrDabh
>> 
>> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
>> senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/
>> 
>> or https://v.gd/YQoopg
>> 
>> This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard,
> Tesla
>> doesn't really need to participate any more:
>> 
>> https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
>> throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil
>> 
>> or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this makes
> 5 top
>> brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.
>> 
>> In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor
> relations,
>> Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice
> President
>> Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and 
>> motors.
>> He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.
>> 
>> Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address
>> here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for
>> us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that
>> it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what
>> is good for the world will be good for us.
>> 
>> -- Wendell Berry = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> ___
>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> 
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Willie McKemie via EV]

Thank you, Rush!


On Wed, May 1, 2024, 8:05 AM Rush via EV  wrote:

> David -
>
> Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that
> it is
> actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
> engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla
> and
> Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
> against the EVDL List Conventions.
>
> You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for
> the
> rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: EV List Lackey 
> > Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments
> >
> > Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:
> >
> > - Vehicle and new product development
> >
> > - EV charging
> >
> > - Public policy
> >
> > Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the
> workforce
> > (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
> > development teams and their directors.
> >
> > The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.
> >
> > As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
> > governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems
> to have
> > bet their future on.
> >
> > This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I
> know?
> >
> > In more detail:
> >
> > 1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new
> product
> > introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since
> 2013.
> >
> > 2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid
> off her
> entire
> > team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.
> >
> > 3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,
> resigned
> > earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy
> team.
> >
> > Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we
> need
> to be
> > absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on
> exec
> staff
> > are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."
> >
> > Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of
> Tesla's
> > other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.
> >
> > More info:
> >
> >
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
> > superchargers-new-vehicles/
> >
> > or https://v.gd/lrDabh
> >
> > https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
> > senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/
> >
> > or https://v.gd/YQoopg
> >
> > This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry
> standard,
> Tesla
> > doesn't really need to participate any more:
> >
> >
> https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
> > throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil
> >
> > or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw
> >
> > -
> >
> > PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this
> makes
> 5 top
> > brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.
> >
> > In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor
> relations,
> > Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice
> President
> > Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and
> motors.
> > He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.
> >
> > Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address
> > here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for
> >  us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that
> >  it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what
> >  is good for the world will be good for us.
> >
> >  

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[paul dove via EV]

 Amen!
On Wednesday, May 1, 2024 at 08:04:32 AM CDT, Rush via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 David -

Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that it is
actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla and
Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
against the EVDL List Conventions.

You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for the
rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV


> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: EV List Lackey 
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments
>
> Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:
>
> - Vehicle and new product development
>
> - EV charging
>
> - Public policy
>
> Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the
workforce
> (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
> development teams and their directors.
>
> The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.
>
> As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
> governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to have
> bet their future on.
>
> This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I know?
>
> In more detail:
>
> 1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new product
> introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since
2013.
>
> 2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off her
entire
> team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.
>
> 3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,
resigned
> earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy team.
>
> Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need
to be
> absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on exec
staff
> are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."
>
> Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of Tesla's
> other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.
>
> More info:
>
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
> superchargers-new-vehicles/
>
> or https://v.gd/lrDabh
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
> senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/
>
> or https://v.gd/YQoopg
>
> This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard,
Tesla
> doesn't really need to participate any more:
>
> https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
> throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil
>
> or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw
>
> -
>
> PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this makes
5 top
> brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.
>
> In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor
relations,
> Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice
President
> Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and motors.
> He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.
>
> Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
address
> here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>      We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for
>      us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that
>      it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what
>      is good for the world will be good for us.
>
>                                                      -- Wendell Berry = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240501/753af638/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[jamie via EV]

OTOH: David listed facts of Tesla's fresh round of layoffs, with links. 
That, in and of itself, isn't prejudice, hatred or partisanship. No 
reason to stifle the messenger. It's news we can use.


Everyone is able to provide evidence to support their own conclusions. 
That's also be useful. All of this sparks discussion which is why we're 
here. It's in the name.


Beyond reporting news, everyone here, including the moderator, is 
entitled to have and express opinions.


Any car company can be lauded or criticized here. None are perfect. I 
don't know of a car company that can't be fairly criticized for 
perceived mistakes in the EV transition, although reasonable people may 
disagree in their interpretations. Good news and bad news can be shared 
and evaluated from everyone's particular perspectives.


Exciting to watch and experience, the technologies and market share have 
been progressing rapidly thanks to a lot of talented engineers, 
marketers, EV fans and those involved in pro-EV public policy.


Sales of EVs continue to grow but the amount of growth is slowing at the 
moment. How manufacturers and folks like us navigate this evolving 
market is worth monitoring.


I found this article to be interesting summation of current market 
conditions:


https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/cars/electric-vehicle-market-sales-tesla-ford/index.html

IMHO how each company copes with various challenges as the market grows, 
and how their decisions effect those of us who buy their vehicles, are 
all worthy and appropriate topics of discussion.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 4/30/24 9:47 PM, Rush via EV wrote:

David -

Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that it is
actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla and
Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
against the EVDL List Conventions.

You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for the
rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: EV List Lackey 
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:

- Vehicle and new product development

- EV charging

- Public policy

Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the

workforce

(I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
development teams and their directors.

The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.

As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to have
bet their future on.

This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I know?

In more detail:

1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new product
introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since

2013.


2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off her

entire

team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.

3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,

resigned

earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy team.

Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need

to be

absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on exec

staff

are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."

Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of Tesla's
other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.

More info:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
superchargers-new-vehicles/

or https://v.gd/lrDabh

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/

or https://v.gd/YQoopg

This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard,

Tesla

doesn't really need to participate any more:

https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil

or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw

-

PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this makes

5 top

brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.

In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor

relations,

Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice

President

Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and motors.
He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.

Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lack

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Rush via EV]

David -

Your prejudice against Tesla is so evident and overwhelming. I think that it is
actually very counterproductive to the EV world. It seems to me that you're
engaging in partisan politics, and that by continuously denigrating Tesla and
Elon Musk at every turn you are promoting hatred which as I understand is
against the EVDL List Conventions.

You are the moderator of this list and as such should sent an example for the
rest of us. I think that a little moderation on your part is called for.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV


> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 4:55 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: EV List Lackey 
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments
>
> Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:
>
> - Vehicle and new product development
>
> - EV charging
>
> - Public policy
>
> Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the
workforce
> (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 major
> development teams and their directors.
>
> The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.
>
> As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with
> governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to have
> bet their future on.
>
> This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I know?
>
> In more detail:
>
> 1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new product
> introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla since
2013.
>
> 2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off her
entire
> team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.
>
> 3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development,
resigned
> earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public policy team.
>
> Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need
to be
> absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on exec
staff
> are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."
>
> Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of Tesla's
> other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of them.
>
> More info:
>
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
> superchargers-new-vehicles/
>
> or https://v.gd/lrDabh
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
> senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/
>
> or https://v.gd/YQoopg
>
> This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard,
Tesla
> doesn't really need to participate any more:
>
> https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
> throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil
>
> or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw
>
> -
>
> PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this makes
5 top
> brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.
>
> In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor
relations,
> Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month, Senior Vice
President
> Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of engineering batteries and motors.
> He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.
>
> Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
address
> here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for
>  us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that
>  it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what
>  is good for the world will be good for us.
>
>  -- Wendell Berry = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Wow. How much of that is musk and how much the board ?

Peri 



From: EV List Lackey via EV 
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 16:55
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: EV List Lackey
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams: 

- Vehicle and new product development 

- EV charging 

- Public policy 

Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the 
workforce (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 
major development teams and their directors.  

The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.  

As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with 
governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to 
have bet their future on. 

This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I 
know? 

In more detail: 

1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new 
product introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla 
since 2013. 

2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off 
her entire team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.  

3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development, 
resigned earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public 
policy team.  

Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need 
to be absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on 
exec staff are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so." 

Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of 
Tesla's other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of 
them. 

More info: 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on- 
superchargers-new-vehicles/ 

or https://v.gd/lrDabh 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims- 
senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/ 

or https://v.gd/YQoopg 

This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard, 
Tesla doesn't really need to participate any more: 

https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs- 
throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil 

or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw 

- 

PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this 
makes 5 top brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure. 

In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor 
relations, Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month,  
Senior Vice President Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of 
engineering batteries and motors. He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.  

Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey 

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for 
 us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that 
 it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what 
 is good for the world will be good for us. 

 -- Wendell Berry 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___ 
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org 
No other addresses in TO and CC fields 
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ 

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240430/5cc9226f/attachment.htm>
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/

[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Tesla has dismissed 3 entire teams:

- Vehicle and new product development

- EV charging

- Public policy

Tesla had ONE bad quarter.  Boom, they've laid off "at least" 10% of the 
workforce (I've read that it's really closer to 20%).  They've also dumped 3 
major development teams and their directors.  

The importance of the first two seems pretty obvious.  

As I read it, the public policy folks would be the ones to negotiate with 
governments for clearance to deploy those "robotaxis" that Tesla seems to 
have bet their future on.

This after one bad quarter.  It seems a little rash to me, but what do I 
know?

In more detail: 

1. Tesla has dismissed Daniel Ho, director of vehicle programs and new 
product introduction; and laid off his entire team.  Ho had been with Tesla 
since 2013.

2. They fired senior director of EV charging Rebecca Tinucci and laid off 
her entire team.  Tinucci was hired in 2018.  

3. Rohan Patel, vice president of public policy and business development, 
resigned earlier this month.  Now Tesla has laid off the entire public 
policy team.  

Musk, in an email: "Hopefully these actions are making it clear that we need 
to be absolutely hardcore about headcount and cost reduction. While some on 
exec staff are taking this seriously, most are not yet doing so."

Presumably (one hopes?) these functions will be taken over by some of 
Tesla's other "hardcore" (overworked) employees.  Sure glad I'm not one of 
them.

More info:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-to-lay-off-everyone-working-on-
superchargers-new-vehicles/

or https://v.gd/lrDabh

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-trims-
senior-management-amid-more-layoffs-information-reports-2024-04-30/

or https://v.gd/YQoopg

This article seems to suggest that with NACS becoming an industry standard, 
Tesla doesn't really need to participate any more:

https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/tesla-supercharger-layoffs-
throw-industry-nacs-shift-into-turmoil

or https://cntp.me/gPhNuPw

-

PS - Apart from the literal-more-than-decimation of Tesla's staff, this 
makes 5 top brass who've left lately.  Some of them had fairly long tenure.

In addition to the 3 above, their longtime vice president of investor 
relations, Martin Viecha, resigned recently.  And earlier this month,  
Senior Vice President Drew Baglino left.  Baglino was in charge of 
engineering batteries and motors. He'd been with Tesla for 18 years.  

Not exactly a rush for the exits, but still ... concerning.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 We have lived our lives by the assumption that what was good for 
 us would be good for the world. We must change our lives so that 
 it will be possible to live by the contrary assumption, that what 
 is good for the world will be good for us.

 -- Wendell Berry
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/