Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
My comment to Toyota: I have been an electric vehicle and alternative energy enthusiast professional for two decades. It was 1997 when a Kummerow electric vehicle powered by a Zinc air battery went 1000 miles on a charge. However it took three days and 4 drivers. It was a golf cart like vehicle limited to 25 mph. They simply circled the former Alameda Naval Air Station. That was 18 years ago. A lot has changed since then. I've owned several Hondas that got 50 or more miles per gallon,(manufactured from 1980 to 1995) A CNG Dodge Van numerous electric vehicles http://www.evalbum.com/611 . Toyota is by far the most competent manufacturer on the planet. Everyone comes to you to learn how to make a better assembly line. However it is obvious that you didn't do the math on Fuel Cells. Using the EPA mileage rating all the BEV models have well over 100MPGE(around 120) while fuel cells struggle hit 60 mpge. It will cost twice as much to run a fuel cell vehicle in fuel. The Mirai is twice a s expensive as most BEV vehicles. While this may change with mass production the math will never work for the fuel efficiency. It will always be twice as expensive in fuel to run a fuel cell vehicle. Much progress has been made in solar vehicles. The addition of the cruiser class at the World Solar Challenge which is for practical 2 to 4 passenger solar vehicles proves that you can have a vehicle that is not a rolling ping pong table yet will have a 500 mile range on 16 kw of batteries and 1.5kw of solar panels. Stella, the winner of the first cruiser class World solar challenge, will never need conventional fueling in normal use. That means all you have to do is park it in the sun and you are fueled. However if you drive steady long distances or at night frequently it will fuel like any other BEV. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2767806/Meet-Stella-solar-powered-car-drives-500-miles-SINGLE-charge-warns-traffic-lights-change.html Toyota I challenge yo u to produce a vehicle that requires little or no additional fuel from outside sources. This is the vehicle that everyone will want. Not fuel cells. An autonomous solar vehicle. The World Solar Challenge has proven this. Just make it light and efficient and the design will work. If Dutch students can do it Toyota can do it. Lawrence Rhodes ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 24, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It will always be twice as expensive in fuel to run a fuel cell vehicle. This statement puzzled me. What about future pricing of fuel for a BEV would cause the price to rise so much? Or do you expect the cost of hydrogen to drop that much? If so, could you share why you think so? I would be astounded if that were to be the case. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Earlier today, I got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell vehicle (with no reply address). So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota BEV... IN less than 3 hours, I got a response: We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and services. If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback! Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
On Apr 23, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]his industry has put it into law that you can get credits for providing a zero-emission long range vehicle[] I think it would make the contrast between BEVs and FCVs much starker if the requirement wasn't tailpipe emissions but well-to-wheel emissions. In that case, FCVs have little hope of competing, since basically all of the hydrogen comes from mined hydrocarbons with said carbon being released into the atmosphere before the hydrogen is delivered to the vehicle. BEVs, on the other hand, can be entirely solar powered -- and many of those on the road already are. The absolute best that a FCV can possibly hope for is to use solar power to analyze water and collect the hydrogen to power the car. Seen that way, it's obvious that the fool cell is in direct competition with a battery...and, given an hour of insolation on a square meter of panels, I just don't see a FCV going anywhere near as far on the resulting charge as a BEV. Maybe somebody else has done (or knows) the math and could put some hard numbers to it? I'd be willing to eat my words. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/8ed3891a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
On 24 Apr 2015 at 1:08, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Eventually people will wise up to the taxes, aka subsidies, needed to support a fuel cell auto industry when they start wondering where their tax payments are going. Education will shorten that time. Watch out, that's a sharp two-edged sword. If we're not careful, it'll swing the other way, and cut off BEV subsidies too. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Surely, rather than fighting _against_ FCVs, we should be fighting _with_ them, against our common enemy the internal combustion engine? https://youtu.be/kHHitXxH-us?t=44s (I'm not a big fan of FCVs, but it seems to me they will go away on their own; we don't need to hasten their demise, other than perhaps to get states like California to stop spending our taxes on them.) On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Earlier today, I got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell vehicle (with no reply address). So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota BEV... IN less than 3 hours, I got a response: We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and services. If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback! Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/3205398c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
On Apr 23, 2015, at 9:10 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 24 Apr 2015 at 1:08, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Eventually people will wise up to the taxes, aka subsidies, needed to support a fuel cell auto industry when they start wondering where their tax payments are going. Education will shorten that time. Watch out, that's a sharp two-edged sword. If we're not careful, it'll swing the other way, and cut off BEV subsidies too. Any time anybody complains about subsidies going to electric vehicle manufacturers I just have to roll my eyes and ask about the auto industry bailout. Same thing with solar energy and our military expenditures to ensure compliant regimes in oil-producing lands -- not to mention corporate welfare in general. You want a level playing field? Look at what gasoline costs in Europe. How well do you think Detroit could compete with EVs if cheap gasoline was $8 / gallon? ...sorry, preaching to the choir, I know b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/fe3123e3/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
I have the impression that no matter how hard we argue here until we are blue in the face (and it will edify some and give a solid background about *why* they are called fool cells) it will not sway much of the compliance car that Toyota is building (or the battery swap that Tesla is doing), simply because this industry has put it into law that you can get credits for providing a zero-emission long range vehicle, which is seen as required by the lawmakers and only two variants are being offered / developed at the moment: Hydrogen refilling (no matter how clumsy and inefficient and lacking infrastructure) and battery swapping (no matter that only a single station needed to be demonstrated). There you have it, as far as I know that is the reason we see what we see. To change this, we better watch legislators more closely / lobby better and educate them where we can, so we can get rid of these monstrosities and focus on things that work, such as BEV and get those into mainstream with all the money available instead of wasting it on pipe-dreams. Let me know if I am besides the point... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mr23 via EV Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 4:44 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle Bob, thanks for writing in about your effort and the response. It spurred me into action, I went there and submitted my thoughts on the Prius (I have an '02, and on the newest models), but more so on the FCV vs BEV debate. Perhaps many of us could sway them, eventually. Thanks again, -Chris On 4/23/2015 5:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Earlier today, I got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell vehicle (with no reply address). So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota BEV... IN less than 3 hours, I got a response: We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and services. If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback! Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Yep. Better education is the key. Eventually people will wise up to the taxes, aka subsidies, needed to support a fuel cell auto industry when they start wondering where their tax payments are going. Education will shorten that time. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 23-Apr-15 5:48:18 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle I have the impression that no matter how hard we argue here until we are blue in the face (and it will edify some and give a solid background about *why* they are called fool cells) it will not sway much of the compliance car that Toyota is building (or the battery swap that Tesla is doing), simply because this industry has put it into law that you can get credits for providing a zero-emission long range vehicle, which is seen as required by the lawmakers and only two variants are being offered / developed at the moment: Hydrogen refilling (no matter how clumsy and inefficient and lacking infrastructure) and battery swapping (no matter that only a single station needed to be demonstrated). There you have it, as far as I know that is the reason we see what we see. To change this, we better watch legislators more closely / lobby better and educate them where we can, so we can get rid of these monstrosities and focus on things that work, such as BEV and get those into mainstream with all the money available instead of wasting it on pipe-dreams. Let me know if I am besides the point... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mr23 via EV Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 4:44 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle Bob, thanks for writing in about your effort and the response. It spurred me into action, I went there and submitted my thoughts on the Prius (I have an '02, and on the newest models), but more so on the FCV vs BEV debate. Perhaps many of us could sway them, eventually. Thanks again, -Chris On 4/23/2015 5:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Earlier today, I got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell vehicle (with no reply address). So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota BEV... IN less than 3 hours, I got a response: We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and services. If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback! Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Bob, thanks for writing in about your effort and the response. It spurred me into action, I went there and submitted my thoughts on the Prius (I have an '02, and on the newest models), but more so on the FCV vs BEV debate. Perhaps many of us could sway them, eventually. Thanks again, -Chris On 4/23/2015 5:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Earlier today, I got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell vehicle (with no reply address). So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota BEV... IN less than 3 hours, I got a response: We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and services. If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback! Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
I'm not so sure FCVs are an ally to EVs. Whether FCVs go away on their own or not, to build the infrastructure will cost billions and then billions more of subsidies to generate hydrogen at a competitive price. Once that infrastructure exists, it is a beast, not an ally. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Jorg Brown via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 23-Apr-15 9:11:12 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle Surely, rather than fighting _against_ FCVs, we should be fighting _with_ them, against our common enemy the internal combustion engine? https://youtu.be/kHHitXxH-us?t=44s (I'm not a big fan of FCVs, but it seems to me they will go away on their own; we don't need to hasten their demise, other than perhaps to get states like California to stop spending our taxes on them.) On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Earlier today, I got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell vehicle (with no reply address). So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota BEV... IN less than 3 hours, I got a response: We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and services. If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback! Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/3205398c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
Peri Hartman via EV wrote: I'm not so sure FCVs are an ally to EVs. Whether FCVs go away on their own or not, to build the infrastructure will cost billions and then billions more of subsidies to generate hydrogen at a competitive price. Once that infrastructure exists, it is a beast, not an ally. I agree. In 2000, fuel cell vehicles were loudly promoted as the way to *replace* battery electric vehicles. The auto and oil industry used them to suck all the funding *away* from battery research and development. In fact, every time EVs begin to get serious press, and rising numbers of EVs manage to get out on the roads, fuel cells get trotted out *again* as a replacement. We don't need EVs; why, in just a few more years, we'll have fuel cell vehicles perfected! -- If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself. -- Albert Einstein -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
