Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Alan Grayson]

On Monday, March 9, 2020 at 6:10:52 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 7:25 PM Alan Grayson  > wrote:
>
>  > *Why can't superposition be interpreted to mean that each alternative 
>> has a probability of occurrence and nothing more? *
>
>
> Because if a particle undergoes a reaction but I DON'T look at it and then 
> let the particle undergo another reaction and then look at it I get one 
> outcome, but if a particle undergoes a reaction but I DO look at it and 
> then let the particle undergo another reaction and look at it I get a 
> completely different reaction. If I start at the very beginning and want to 
> calculate the outcome at the very end it matters if I looked at anything in 
> the middle or not. This is the measurement problem, and Many Worlds is the 
> only quantum interpretation that even tries to give an explanation for this 
> bizarre behavior, Copenhagen basically says just shut up and calculate. And 
> that works fine if you're a engineer and have no interest in the 
> philosophical implications, but for others not so much.
>
> John K Clark
>

How is this related to superposition? AG 

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[John Clark]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 7:25 PM Alan Grayson  wrote:

 > *Why can't superposition be interpreted to mean that each alternative
> has a probability of occurrence and nothing more? *


Because if a particle undergoes a reaction but I DON'T look at it and then
let the particle undergo another reaction and then look at it I get one
outcome, but if a particle undergoes a reaction but I DO look at it and
then let the particle undergo another reaction and look at it I get a
completely different reaction. If I start at the very beginning and want to
calculate the outcome at the very end it matters if I looked at anything in
the middle or not. This is the measurement problem, and Many Worlds is the
only quantum interpretation that even tries to give an explanation for this
bizarre behavior, Copenhagen basically says just shut up and calculate. And
that works fine if you're a engineer and have no interest in the
philosophical implications, but for others not so much.

John K Clark

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Philip Thrift]

On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 5:32:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 10:39:09 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/7/2020 8:17 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 3:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/7/2020 7:38 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the Transactional Interpretation has additional problems, such 
>>> as forward (or backward?) in time signaling. 
>>>
>>>
>>> Ruth Kastner has tried to fix that by postulating a possibility space 
>>> where the offer wave elicits the answer wave; so it's not in spacetime.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Possibility space sounds very much like magical space, where anything you 
>> want to happen can happen.
>>
>>
>> No, it's like the wave function where possibilities are encoded with 
>> amplitudes.  The essential idea isn't the possibility space, it's the idea 
>> that "events" which are interactions that transfer energy really happen.  
>> This takes the place of decoherence and collapse of the wave function.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>
>
> The nature of the probability space is that it is based on complex numbers 
> q from the unit circle group |q| = 1 rather real numbers p in [0,1].
>
> Rather than an event weighted by a real number, an event is a set of 
> counterevents - each c.e. weighted by a complex number (which are then 
> summed and the norm is taken) to get the real number weight of the event.
>
> @philipthrift
>

Actually there's a list of references that's been collected:

http://physics.bu.edu/~youssef/quantum/quantum_refs.html

@philipthrift 

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 10:39:09 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/7/2020 8:17 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 3:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> On 3/7/2020 7:38 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think the Transactional Interpretation has additional problems, such as 
>> forward (or backward?) in time signaling. 
>>
>>
>> Ruth Kastner has tried to fix that by postulating a possibility space 
>> where the offer wave elicits the answer wave; so it's not in spacetime.
>>
>
>
> Possibility space sounds very much like magical space, where anything you 
> want to happen can happen.
>
>
> No, it's like the wave function where possibilities are encoded with 
> amplitudes.  The essential idea isn't the possibility space, it's the idea 
> that "events" which are interactions that transfer energy really happen.  
> This takes the place of decoherence and collapse of the wave function.
>
> Brent
>


The nature of the probability space is that it is based on complex numbers 
q from the unit circle group |q| = 1 rather real numbers p in [0,1].

Rather than an event weighted by a real number, an event is a set of 
counterevents - each c.e. weighted by a complex number (which are then 
summed and the norm is taken) to get the real number weight of the event.

@philipthrift

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 3/7/2020 8:17 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 3:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
> wrote:


On 3/7/2020 7:38 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:


I think the Transactional Interpretation has additional problems,
such as forward (or backward?) in time signaling.


Ruth Kastner has tried to fix that by postulating a possibility
space where the offer wave elicits the answer wave; so it's not in
spacetime.



Possibility space sounds very much like magical space, where anything 
you want to happen can happen.


No, it's like the wave function where possibilities are encoded with 
amplitudes.  The essential idea isn't the possibility space, it's the 
idea that "events" which are interactions that transfer energy really 
happen.  This takes the place of decoherence and collapse of the wave 
function.


Brent

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Bruce Kellett]

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 3:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On 3/7/2020 7:38 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
> I think the Transactional Interpretation has additional problems, such as
> forward (or backward?) in time signaling.
>
>
> Ruth Kastner has tried to fix that by postulating a possibility space
> where the offer wave elicits the answer wave; so it's not in spacetime.
>


Possibility space sounds very much like magical space, where anything you
want to happen can happen..

Bruce

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 3/7/2020 7:38 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:



On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 6:33:05 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote:



On 3/7/2020 4:54 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:25 AM Alan Grayson > wrote:

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 1:22:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Thrift
wrote:


Sean Carroll
@seanmcarroll
·
What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it
becomes entangled with its environment, so that the wave
function comes to describe multiple almost-classical
worlds! Happens to all of us, and nicely explained in
this @veritasium video.

https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568


@philipthrift


I've  asked this before and might have gotten some replies,
but I can't recall what they were. Many of the quantum
paradoxes arise due to a particular interpretation of
superposition, namely, that all alternatives happen
simultaneously (before measurement). Why can't superposition
be interpreted to mean that each alternative has a
probability of occurrence and nothing more? TIA, AG


In a collapse or an epistemic interpretation, that is exactly
what it means.


The problem is saying exactly when the Schroedinger equation stops
describing the evolution and the alternative happens, i.e. the wf
collapses.  In QBism it's when you learn the result and you update
your knowledge.  In the Transactional interpretation it's when an
interaction is realized.  I think Zurek's quantum Darwinism could
be given this interpretation: when the cross terms in the pointer
basis become sufficiently small.

Brent


I think the Transactional Interpretation has additional problems, such 
as forward (or backward?) in time signaling.


Ruth Kastner has tried to fix that by postulating a possibility space 
where the offer wave elicits the answer wave; so it's not in spacetime.


Does a comparable problem arise when using Heisenberg's formulation of 
QM? AG


Matrix mechanics is equivalent to Schoedinger's equation, so I think it 
has the same problem of having an evolution phase and a measurement phase.


Brent

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Alan Grayson]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 6:33:05 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/7/2020 4:54 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:25 AM Alan Grayson  > wrote:
>
>> On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 1:22:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Thrift wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean Carroll
>>> @seanmcarroll
>>> ·
>>> What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it becomes entangled 
>>> with its environment, so that the wave function comes to describe multiple 
>>> almost-classical worlds! Happens to all of us, and nicely explained in this 
>>> @veritasium video.
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568
>>>
>>> @philipthrift
>>>
>>
>> I've  asked this before and might have gotten some replies, but I can't 
>> recall what they were. Many of the quantum paradoxes arise due to a 
>> particular interpretation of superposition, namely, that all alternatives 
>> happen simultaneously (before measurement). Why can't superposition be 
>> interpreted to mean that each alternative has a probability of occurrence 
>> and nothing more? TIA, AG 
>>
>
> In a collapse or an epistemic interpretation, that is exactly what it 
> means.
>
>
> The problem is saying exactly when the Schroedinger equation stops 
> describing the evolution and the alternative happens, i.e. the wf 
> collapses.  In QBism it's when you learn the result and you update your 
> knowledge.  In the Transactional interpretation it's when an interaction is 
> realized.  I think Zurek's quantum Darwinism could be given this 
> interpretation: when the cross terms in the pointer basis become 
> sufficiently small.
>
> Brent
>

I think the Transactional Interpretation has additional problems, such as 
forward (or backward?) in time signaling. Does a comparable problem arise 
when using Heisenberg's formulation of QM? AG 

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 3/7/2020 4:54 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:
On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:25 AM Alan Grayson > wrote:


On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 1:22:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Thrift wrote:


Sean Carroll
@seanmcarroll
·
What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it becomes
entangled with its environment, so that the wave function
comes to describe multiple almost-classical worlds! Happens to
all of us, and nicely explained in this @veritasium video.

https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568

@philipthrift


I've  asked this before and might have gotten some replies, but I
can't recall what they were. Many of the quantum paradoxes arise
due to a particular interpretation of superposition, namely, that
all alternatives happen simultaneously (before measurement). Why
can't superposition be interpreted to mean that each alternative
has a probability of occurrence and nothing more? TIA, AG


In a collapse or an epistemic interpretation, that is exactly what it 
means.


The problem is saying exactly when the Schroedinger equation stops 
describing the evolution and the alternative happens, i.e. the wf 
collapses.  In QBism it's when you learn the result and you update your 
knowledge.  In the Transactional interpretation it's when an interaction 
is realized.  I think Zurek's quantum Darwinism could be given this 
interpretation: when the cross terms in the pointer basis become 
sufficiently small.


Brent

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Alan Grayson]

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 5:54:19 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:25 AM Alan Grayson  > wrote:
>
>> On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 1:22:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean Carroll
>>> @seanmcarroll
>>> ·
>>> What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it becomes entangled 
>>> with its environment, so that the wave function comes to describe multiple 
>>> almost-classical worlds! Happens to all of us, and nicely explained in this 
>>> @veritasium video.
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568
>>>
>>> @philipthrift
>>>
>>
>> I've  asked this before and might have gotten some replies, but I can't 
>> recall what they were. Many of the quantum paradoxes arise due to a 
>> particular interpretation of superposition, namely, that all alternatives 
>> happen simultaneously (before measurement). Why can't superposition be 
>> interpreted to mean that each alternative has a probability of occurrence 
>> and nothing more? TIA, AG 
>>
>
> In a collapse or an epistemic interpretation, that is exactly what it 
> means.
>
> Bruce
>

So why not leave it at that? What's the reason some go beyond this which 
creates unresolvable issues? Presumably, if it's just epistemic, no need to 
worry about collapse and how it happens. AG 

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Bruce Kellett]

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:25 AM Alan Grayson  wrote:

> On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 1:22:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sean Carroll
>> @seanmcarroll
>> ·
>> What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it becomes entangled
>> with its environment, so that the wave function comes to describe multiple
>> almost-classical worlds! Happens to all of us, and nicely explained in this
>> @veritasium video.
>>
>> https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>
> I've  asked this before and might have gotten some replies, but I can't
> recall what they were. Many of the quantum paradoxes arise due to a
> particular interpretation of superposition, namely, that all alternatives
> happen simultaneously (before measurement). Why can't superposition be
> interpreted to mean that each alternative has a probability of occurrence
> and nothing more? TIA, AG
>

In a collapse or an epistemic interpretation, that is exactly what it means.

Bruce

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Re: Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Alan Grayson]

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 1:22:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
> Sean Carroll
> @seanmcarroll
> ·
> What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it becomes entangled with 
> its environment, so that the wave function comes to describe multiple 
> almost-classical worlds! Happens to all of us, and nicely explained in this 
> @veritasium video.
>
> https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568
>
> @philipthrift
>

I've  asked this before and might have gotten some replies, but I can't 
recall what they were. Many of the quantum paradoxes arise due to a 
particular interpretation of superposition, namely, that all alternatives 
happen simultaneously (before measurement). Why can't superposition be 
interpreted to mean that each alternative has a probability of occurrence 
and nothing more? TIA, AG 

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Why physics has become fantasy fiction

[Philip Thrift]

Sean Carroll
@seanmcarroll
·
What really happens to Schrödinger’s cat is that it becomes entangled with 
its environment, so that the wave function comes to describe multiple 
almost-classical worlds! Happens to all of us, and nicely explained in this 
@veritasium video.

https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll/status/1235999175428333568

@philipthrift

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