Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-17 at 03:01, Franki wrote: > James Sparenberg wrote: > > >On Thu, 2003-10-16 at 13:49, Chuck Stuettgen wrote: > > > > > >>On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 10:24, Jack Coates wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > >>>Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > >>>breaks in ugly ways. > >>> > >>>Transparent PNGs. > >>>PNGs at all (color is off). > >>>Advanced CSS features, like flow. > >>>Many advanced Javascript form functions. > >>> > >>> > >>Especially, on the CSS support. We have Java based (JSP) system we > >>developed to create and issue insurance certificates for commercial > >>insurance. > >> > >>The completed certificate is displayed in two frames. A small horizontal > >>frame, containing nothing more that a few navigation buttons and a > >>background, over the main window in which the completed certificate is > >>rendered in the Adobe Acrobat reader plug-in. > >> > >>Recently, we started getting complaints from our users that the system > >>was very slow and that it would take a minute or more for a certificate > >>to be displayed. > >> > >>During troubleshooting we discovered that it could take up to 5 minutes > >>to display the certificate from the time the user clicked the submit > >>button if they used IE. However, if they used Netscape 4.78, or later, > >>the certificate would be displayed in less than a second. In most cases > >>it was displayed, before the user could even move their hand. > >> > >>Since we make this web based application available to our customers, it > >>was imperative that we find the cause and resolve it. > >> > >>After several days of troubleshooting and debugging our head Java > >>programmer found the problem. > >> > >> > >>A contract programmer, who is no longer employed, had coded a 6 line > >>Cascading Style Sheet for the top frame. > >> > >>We removed the CSS and recoded to the page. Now it displays in less than > >>a second using IE as well as Netscape, Mozilla, Opera. et all.. > >> > >> > > > > > >Chuck, > > > >I think you've stated better than anyone I've ever heard why it's > >important to view a site in > > > >1. Every browser you can find. > > > >2. On every box within reach EXCEPT the developers box. > > > >3. Oer a 56k modem with a crap connection. > > > > > >This last one doesn't apply as much if you live outside the US and the > >3rd world. > > > >James > > > > > > > Get real James, > > I live in Australia, and broadband over here either isn't available in > most areas, or is to expensive.. > I have ADSL, but it costs me 85 a month and has only 256/64 and to get a > static IP address required that they limit my bandwidth to 1 gig a month... > > Now tell me again why only US should test with Dialup? in Australia > Dialup still outnumbers broadband by a massive martgin. > Trust me, from the people I know over there, those that do have > broadband, have MUCH better broadband then those of us in Australia. I'm stating not that only the US should test with a modem, but rather stating that the sorry 19% of US internet users who have access to broadband (This means home, work or school) is crap compared with even our immediate neighbors. (I've heard Canada is up to about 70 or 80% for example and Mexico is at about 35% or better.) The jibe is against the policies here. Not stating that only the US is stuck on Modems, or should test with them. It was a political statement aimed at my own gov (FCC) not what you took it to be. James > > rgds > > Franki > > > -- > Please sign our petition to encourage notebook manufactures to offer video card > upgrades just like desktops. > http://www.petitiononline.com/inspiron/petition.html > > For free scripts, online webmaster tools, HTML, XHTML, Perl & PHP tutorials and > stuff, visit: > http://htmlfixit.com, Free web developer resources. > > > > > > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
James Sparenberg wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-16 at 13:49, Chuck Stuettgen wrote: On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 10:24, Jack Coates wrote: you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently breaks in ugly ways. Transparent PNGs. PNGs at all (color is off). Advanced CSS features, like flow. Many advanced Javascript form functions. Especially, on the CSS support. We have Java based (JSP) system we developed to create and issue insurance certificates for commercial insurance. The completed certificate is displayed in two frames. A small horizontal frame, containing nothing more that a few navigation buttons and a background, over the main window in which the completed certificate is rendered in the Adobe Acrobat reader plug-in. Recently, we started getting complaints from our users that the system was very slow and that it would take a minute or more for a certificate to be displayed. During troubleshooting we discovered that it could take up to 5 minutes to display the certificate from the time the user clicked the submit button if they used IE. However, if they used Netscape 4.78, or later, the certificate would be displayed in less than a second. In most cases it was displayed, before the user could even move their hand. Since we make this web based application available to our customers, it was imperative that we find the cause and resolve it. After several days of troubleshooting and debugging our head Java programmer found the problem. A contract programmer, who is no longer employed, had coded a 6 line Cascading Style Sheet for the top frame. We removed the CSS and recoded to the page. Now it displays in less than a second using IE as well as Netscape, Mozilla, Opera. et all.. Chuck, I think you've stated better than anyone I've ever heard why it's important to view a site in 1. Every browser you can find. 2. On every box within reach EXCEPT the developers box. 3. Oer a 56k modem with a crap connection. This last one doesn't apply as much if you live outside the US and the 3rd world. James Get real James, I live in Australia, and broadband over here either isn't available in most areas, or is to expensive.. I have ADSL, but it costs me 85 a month and has only 256/64 and to get a static IP address required that they limit my bandwidth to 1 gig a month... Now tell me again why only US should test with Dialup? in Australia Dialup still outnumbers broadband by a massive martgin. Trust me, from the people I know over there, those that do have broadband, have MUCH better broadband then those of us in Australia. rgds Franki -- Please sign our petition to encourage notebook manufactures to offer video card upgrades just like desktops. http://www.petitiononline.com/inspiron/petition.html For free scripts, online webmaster tools, HTML, XHTML, Perl & PHP tutorials and stuff, visit: http://htmlfixit.com, Free web developer resources. -- Please sign our petition to encourage notebook manufactures to offer video card upgrades just like desktops. http://www.petitiononline.com/inspiron/petition.html For free scripts, online webmaster tools, HTML, XHTML, Perl & PHP tutorials and stuff, visit: http://htmlfixit.com, Free web developer resources. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Thu, 2003-10-16 at 13:49, Chuck Stuettgen wrote: > On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 10:24, Jack Coates wrote: > > > you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > > Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > > breaks in ugly ways. > > > > Transparent PNGs. > > PNGs at all (color is off). > > Advanced CSS features, like flow. > > Many advanced Javascript form functions. > > Especially, on the CSS support. We have Java based (JSP) system we > developed to create and issue insurance certificates for commercial > insurance. > > The completed certificate is displayed in two frames. A small horizontal > frame, containing nothing more that a few navigation buttons and a > background, over the main window in which the completed certificate is > rendered in the Adobe Acrobat reader plug-in. > > Recently, we started getting complaints from our users that the system > was very slow and that it would take a minute or more for a certificate > to be displayed. > > During troubleshooting we discovered that it could take up to 5 minutes > to display the certificate from the time the user clicked the submit > button if they used IE. However, if they used Netscape 4.78, or later, > the certificate would be displayed in less than a second. In most cases > it was displayed, before the user could even move their hand. > > Since we make this web based application available to our customers, it > was imperative that we find the cause and resolve it. > > After several days of troubleshooting and debugging our head Java > programmer found the problem. > > > A contract programmer, who is no longer employed, had coded a 6 line > Cascading Style Sheet for the top frame. > > We removed the CSS and recoded to the page. Now it displays in less than > a second using IE as well as Netscape, Mozilla, Opera. et all.. Chuck, I think you've stated better than anyone I've ever heard why it's important to view a site in 1. Every browser you can find. 2. On every box within reach EXCEPT the developers box. 3. Oer a 56k modem with a crap connection. This last one doesn't apply as much if you live outside the US and the 3rd world. James > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Thursday 16 October 2003 03:46 pm, Chuck Stuettgen wrote: > On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 21:29, Carroll Grigsby wrote: > > Tim: > > Good for you. And good for the guy who runs your local Home Depot. He > > seems to understand that every dollar spent at a competitive store is a > > buck that he won't get. But the root cause -- the idiot webmaster -- > > still remains. Now that you and the store manager are buddy-buddy, is > > there any chance of learning either the e-mail or snail mail address of > > whoever it is that has custody of the idiot? I'd be interesting in laying > > a few lines on him. -- cmg > > > No snail-mail but here is info from their "Contact Us" page: > > > Web site support > 1-800-430-3376 > > Customer Care > 1-800-553-3199 > > I find it interesting that it does not work for you as they are using > Java and JSP. > > Good Luck! Chuck: I went to Home Depot's corporate site, found an e-mail address ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), and sent a letter explaining my difficulty. The next day I received a generic reply apologizing for any inconvenience, and stating that my comments would be passed on to their Internet Team. No discount certificates, though. Maybe there is something goofy with my Java/JSP setup. I'm using Konq 3.1.0 under 9.1, and I don't recall making any changes related to Java. I might let this slide until my 9.2 Pack gets here. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 10:24, Jack Coates wrote: > you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > breaks in ugly ways. > > Transparent PNGs. > PNGs at all (color is off). > Advanced CSS features, like flow. > Many advanced Javascript form functions. Especially, on the CSS support. We have Java based (JSP) system we developed to create and issue insurance certificates for commercial insurance. The completed certificate is displayed in two frames. A small horizontal frame, containing nothing more that a few navigation buttons and a background, over the main window in which the completed certificate is rendered in the Adobe Acrobat reader plug-in. Recently, we started getting complaints from our users that the system was very slow and that it would take a minute or more for a certificate to be displayed. During troubleshooting we discovered that it could take up to 5 minutes to display the certificate from the time the user clicked the submit button if they used IE. However, if they used Netscape 4.78, or later, the certificate would be displayed in less than a second. In most cases it was displayed, before the user could even move their hand. Since we make this web based application available to our customers, it was imperative that we find the cause and resolve it. After several days of troubleshooting and debugging our head Java programmer found the problem. A contract programmer, who is no longer employed, had coded a 6 line Cascading Style Sheet for the top frame. We removed the CSS and recoded to the page. Now it displays in less than a second using IE as well as Netscape, Mozilla, Opera. et all.. -- Chuck Stuettgen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 21:29, Carroll Grigsby wrote: > > Tim: > Good for you. And good for the guy who runs your local Home Depot. He seems to > understand that every dollar spent at a competitive store is a buck that he > won't get. But the root cause -- the idiot webmaster -- still remains. Now > that you and the store manager are buddy-buddy, is there any chance of > learning either the e-mail or snail mail address of whoever it is that has > custody of the idiot? I'd be interesting in laying a few lines on him. > -- cmg > > > > > > __ No snail-mail but here is info from their "Contact Us" page: Web site support 1-800-430-3376 Customer Care 1-800-553-3199 I find it interesting that it does not work for you as they are using Java and JSP. Good Luck! -- Like the dinosaur, Windows on the desktop is destined to become extinct... Chuck Stuettgen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cfs-tech.homelinux.net Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 23:42, James Sparenberg wrote: > On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 08:24, Jack Coates wrote: > > On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:17, Bryan Phinney wrote: > > > > ... > > > This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you code > > > for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other browsers > > > because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are industry > > > standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool proprietary > > > technology to do your work which might mean that the developers have to put > > > more effort into their coding, but you will be fairly certain of > > > compatibility. > > > > you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > > Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > > breaks in ugly ways. > > > > Transparent PNGs. > > PNGs at all (color is off). > > Advanced CSS features, like flow. > > Many advanced Javascript form functions. > > Ya gotta remember IE and in fact much of windows is 4 or 5 year old > tech. (just new graphics in many cases.) With new modules added on. > > James > > > you are older than you think, if you think "much of windows is 4 or 5 > year old". > __ > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 08:40, Bryan Phinney wrote: > On Monday 13 October 2003 11:24 am, Jack Coates wrote: > > On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:17, Bryan Phinney wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you > > > code for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other > > > browsers because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are > > > industry standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool > > > proprietary technology to do your work which might mean that the > > > developers have to put more effort into their coding, but you will be > > > fairly certain of compatibility. > > > > you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > > Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > > breaks in ugly ways. > > > > Transparent PNGs. > > PNGs at all (color is off). > > Advanced CSS features, like flow. > > Many advanced Javascript form functions. > > W3C is constantly publishing new standards and it often takes time to > implement those in new products. Until I become aware of any software > developer purposefully deviating from a published standard, I do not plan to > deal with it. Not every technology currently available works with IE, nor > Netscape, nor Opera or any other particular browser. I don't think that IE > is particularly different in this regard than any other browser. If you want > maximum interoperability, you have to code for the lowest common denominator. > So, CSS1, not CSS2 features unless you know that they are all supported, etc. Also you need to ask yourself. Am I doing this because it improves the customer experience?, Makes me look cool?, or gives me a new line on my resume? How often it seems to me to be the second or third reason. Funny too, how many corporate pages I run into that look like geocities rejects, or are so difficult to find things on it isn't funny. If you want a great example of WTF go to jameco.com, and check out their way for "finding" the right powersupply.. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 08:24, Jack Coates wrote: > On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:17, Bryan Phinney wrote: > > ... > > This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you code > > for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other browsers > > because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are industry > > standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool proprietary > > technology to do your work which might mean that the developers have to put > > more effort into their coding, but you will be fairly certain of > > compatibility. > > you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > breaks in ugly ways. > > Transparent PNGs. > PNGs at all (color is off). > Advanced CSS features, like flow. > Many advanced Javascript form functions. Ya gotta remember IE and in fact much of windows is 4 or 5 year old tech. (just new graphics in many cases.) With new modules added on. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Bryan Phinney wrote: On Monday 13 October 2003 11:24 am, Jack Coates wrote: On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:17, Bryan Phinney wrote: ... This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you code for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other browsers because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are industry standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool proprietary technology to do your work which might mean that the developers have to put more effort into their coding, but you will be fairly certain of compatibility. you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently breaks in ugly ways. Transparent PNGs. PNGs at all (color is off). Advanced CSS features, like flow. Many advanced Javascript form functions. W3C is constantly publishing new standards and it often takes time to implement those in new products. Until I become aware of any software developer purposefully deviating from a published standard, I do not plan to deal with it. Not every technology currently available works with IE, nor Netscape, nor Opera or any other particular browser. I don't think that IE is particularly different in this regard than any other browser. If you want maximum interoperability, you have to code for the lowest common denominator. So, CSS1, not CSS2 features unless you know that they are all supported, etc. Here's an interesting little page I've found. The rest of the site is very informative if you're trying to learn CSS. http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/page_layout.html -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Linux user #322847 | Linux machine #207465 | http://counter.li.org/ AMD Duron 1.3GHz | Mandrake Linux 9.1 | Kernel 2.4.21-0.16mm-mdk Reiserfs and XFS | KDE 3.1.3 | Mozilla 1.4 Mail Client Uptime: 13:25:00 up 13 days, 13:55, 6 users, load average: 0.19, 0.16, 0.11 --- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Jack Coates wrote: On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 06:48, Praedor Atrebates wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java or javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One error message I Java server pages, served from a Java application platform (Tomcat in this case). Try looking at the source of the pages that give you trouble though, there might be JavaScript embedded or referenced which could include browser detection code. received when trying to bypass their filters for Netscape or IE indicated that they are using Apache Tomcat, hence they are not a doze shop (good for them). At this point, I either assume that konqueror is STILL broken with regards to javascript (KDE 3.1.3) or they are simply specifically looking for either mozilla or IE and if detecting neither, produce the download page for either. I tried to reset my password/user ID on the site using konqueror and got this: - --- Apache Tomcat/4.0.6 - HTTP Status 404 - /portal/jsp/portal.jsp description The requested resource (/portal/jsp/portal.jsp) is not available. - --- praedor On Sunday 12 October 2003 02:44 am, James Sparenberg wrote: On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:08, Eric Huff wrote: I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always work. praedor oops forgot an example page http://supportwizard.com This works fine with firebird. yep and mozilla and links (graphical) and browsex but not in Konqueror. Oh and I did send a mistake. This one is perl cgi not asp. I lost my asp link. James eric You may want to purge any cookies for that site that may be telling on you. You may also want to clean your cache which may be causing problems due to the fact that Konqueror doesn't like to let go of cached pages. That's what gives it the illusion of speed (same with Opera). Try developing web pages and checking them in those browsers and you'll know what I mean. It's a shot in the dark, and may not totally solve your problems, but it may help. -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Linux user #322847 | Linux machine #207465 | http://counter.li.org/ AMD Duron 1.3GHz | Mandrake Linux 9.1 | Kernel 2.4.21-0.16mm-mdk Reiserfs and XFS | KDE 3.1.3 | Mozilla 1.4 Mail Client Uptime: 13:20:00 up 13 days, 13:50, 6 users, load average: 0.00, 0.07, 0.08 --- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Monday 13 October 2003 11:24 am, Jack Coates wrote: > On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:17, Bryan Phinney wrote: > > ... > > > This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you > > code for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other > > browsers because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are > > industry standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool > > proprietary technology to do your work which might mean that the > > developers have to put more effort into their coding, but you will be > > fairly certain of compatibility. > > you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. > Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently > breaks in ugly ways. > > Transparent PNGs. > PNGs at all (color is off). > Advanced CSS features, like flow. > Many advanced Javascript form functions. W3C is constantly publishing new standards and it often takes time to implement those in new products. Until I become aware of any software developer purposefully deviating from a published standard, I do not plan to deal with it. Not every technology currently available works with IE, nor Netscape, nor Opera or any other particular browser. I don't think that IE is particularly different in this regard than any other browser. If you want maximum interoperability, you have to code for the lowest common denominator. So, CSS1, not CSS2 features unless you know that they are all supported, etc. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 06:17, Bryan Phinney wrote: ... > This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you code > for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other browsers > because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are industry > standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool proprietary > technology to do your work which might mean that the developers have to put > more effort into their coding, but you will be fairly certain of > compatibility. you make the fatal assumption that IE supports the standard. It doesn't. Standard code works on IE if it's really really simple, but frequently breaks in ugly ways. Transparent PNGs. PNGs at all (color is off). Advanced CSS features, like flow. Many advanced Javascript form functions. -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:01:05 -0500 Praedor Atrebates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I simply want the option, in the form of a button, to go > ahead and try to use their site through a non-mozilla/non-IE browser. I have many complaints with my credit card provider; but at least they do just as you suggest... http://capitalone.com -- maybe showing this to your credit union might help... See also my other post on going to the top of the organization... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:34:39 -0700 rikona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Praedor, > > Sunday, October 12, 2003, 7:41:58 PM, you wrote: > > PA> It seems patently indefensible and unfair to out-and-out ban > PA> opera, safari, konqueror, etc, as a matter of policy. It most > PA> certainly isn't a security problem as IE certainly isn't more > PA> secure than opera, etc. > > I've gone round and round with several companies on this issue (I use > Opera), and the problem seems to be management: (1) "the budget is > VERY tight", and (2) "it better look good, or you're toast". The more > honest ones have admitted they can't justify developing for more than > IE, given the huge REPORTED market share. With so many people using > spoofing, it just makes the market share look even bigger than it is. > We can't win for loosing. > > IMHO, only a very large number of complaints everywhere will begin to > put a dent in this. OR... just one complaint in the _right place_ -- using a real example, here's what I typically do... Last Feb, while I was paying bills online -- all was fine until I got to my satellite TV bill -- when paying those bills over my DSL line previously, I didn't notice any problems; BUT... when I tried paying them over a dial-up, it was virtually impossible because the site was poorly designed for slow links -- everything was done with images (with no alt="Descriptive text") forcing me to wait for the complete page to see what I could do on the site... I thought about it and concluded that webmasters are generally proud of their efforts and are resistant to change... and they certainly don't like their "baby" criticized... So... what's one to do? Easy it turned out... I crafted a message to that company's President with comments like: | Subject: Can it be any more painful? | I'm sure that sending this to your webmaster(s) would get little, or no | attention; so... [snip stuff about my setup and DSL v. dial-up] | Your webmaster(s) may think the pages | look "cool"; but... have the pages ever been viewed the way many users see | them...? | | Today, I'm trying to pay via a SLOW dialup since I'm away from home. | | Trying to make a payment over a slow link, in a word, SUCKS!! | | To understand the problems, I strongly suggest you sit your webmaster(s) | in front of a 20-30kb modem attached computer and have them try to make a | payment... [should have his $$$ attention now... snip loads more details on how to make it better] This got me a same day response: | Thank you for your email and the constructive criticism... I will in fact | take your suggestion and view our web page and payment process [snip] | i find we learn best from our customers experiences. [snip] Less than 2 weeks later (YUP! Less than TWO weeks), I wrote him back: | Looks like you really shook up your webmasters... THANKS! | Looks MUCH better... | [snip details about improvements -- then compliment the staff which will surely find its way to the webmasters...] | but I am impressed with the speed at which you and your staff | accomplished the changes. | | I'm detecting a definitely a more customer oriented approach at | than in the days I complained about transmission problems... My point is that there is no law against contacting the President/CEO of any company directly, putting the issues in business terms that s/he will understand -- don't get technical here; just enough so the s/he understands your pain in dealing with her company... many will deflect to a filter group; but some will address it personally. Any President/CEO who is overly filtering is not doing a good job anyway, IMO. Don't forget the follow-up compliments if you get the desired changes... HTH Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Monday 13 October 2003 01:13 am, rikona wrote: > Hello Eric, > > Sunday, October 12, 2003, 9:40:03 PM, you wrote: > > EH> That's the silly part: we're not really even asking for > EH> development. We just want them to get rid of the rejection of non > EH> IE browsers. It would mean *less* work and less code if they > EH> didn't put it in to begin with. > > I think it would be more work. They'd have to test it with other > browsers, and since different ones DO act differently, they'd have to > develop code to work in all of them. It seems to be easier (= cheaper) > to just put in a check and ask users to use IE. This really depends on what the web site or application is doing. If you code for Opera, then you can be 98% sure that it will work with other browsers because Opera only supports W3 Consortium standards which are industry standards. Now, you may not be able to use that neato-cool proprietary technology to do your work which might mean that the developers have to put more effort into their coding, but you will be fairly certain of compatibility. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I don't believe this to be a real problem though. All they need to do is design basic javascript, if that is what they intend to use, that doesn't do anything wierd or os-specific/browser-specific. The simple approach is to provide a warning to users that it has been detected that they are not using either mozilla or IE and that, as such, there is no gaurantee that their browser will work. Give them the OPTION to try it anyway and, if it fails, they can then download the appropriate browser. It is wrongheaded and flat wrong to a priori just assume that browsers other than a or b will not work, period. They do not know this and are likely wrong. I don't have a problem, per se, with my credit union dumping me to a download window for mozilla or IE. I have a problem with their automatic assumption that no other browser could possibly work on their crappy designed website and thus try to force users to use a particular browser. No, you do not demand that customers use this or that, you serve your customers (not the other way around). I simply want the option, in the form of a button, to go ahead and try to use their site through a non-mozilla/non-IE browser. If it fails, I will report the problem to the developers of konqueror (or whatever) and use mozilla. The world didn't end in trying to use my preferred browser (konqueror) no matter what happens. praedor On Monday 13 October 2003 12:18 am, Jack Coates wrote: > On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 21:40, Eric Huff wrote: > > > The more honest ones have admitted they can't justify > > > developing for more than IE, given the huge REPORTED market share. > > > With so many people using spoofing, it just makes the market share > > > look even bigger than it is. We can't win for loosing. > > > > That's the silly part: we're not really even asking for development. > > We just want them to get rid of the rejection of non IE browsers. > > It would mean *less* work and less code if they didn't put it in to > > begin with. > > > > eric > > unless it didn't work in your browser, or did but didn't look good. Both > cases come back to more work, only it's unplanned work. - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/iqIcb1CLurEA6xURAm9MAJ9lKXr2RFO1PMPl5tFcmYGxKSiFUgCfTmPI hTIXdf6OfPRNRljufndorMA= =4s+0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I don't really know javascript but my perusal of the code suggests that it is specifically setup to ignore browser spoofing and thus eliminate opera and any other browser that is doing a spoof. Thing is, I kept getting closer and closer to getting in with konqueror, to the point that the login page would appear perfectly fine, as would other "protected" pages like their password/login change page but shortly after it loaded, boop!, the browsercheck.js script would catch me out and dump me to the download page. The script is somewhat stock with comments indicating that it is a simple comment out procedure to allow for spoofed browsers. In any case, it is pointless and ridiculous. All the need to do if they are so concerned about it is to add a bypass button and allow the client to make a go at it regardless. It will either work or it wont, then they may need to download/use mozilla or IE...but not before. It seems patently indefensible and unfair to out-and-out ban opera, safari, konqueror, etc, as a matter of policy. It most certainly isn't a security problem as IE certainly isn't more secure than opera, etc. Now that I know a little more about their check, I can try to ask that they allow spoofing. It's not like they have to recode the whole script. praedor On Sunday 12 October 2003 03:09 pm, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > Sorry...I suppose I shouldn't have attached anything. > > On Sunday 12 October 2003 03:01 pm, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > > Thanks, but that didn't work. I did manage to download their > > browsercheck.js file however. Google couldn't find it and I couldn't > > "load" it in konqueror. I ended up simply trying to load > > https://homebanking.purdueefcu.com/homebanking/js/browsercheck.js and > > konqueror came back with the dialog box asking if I wanted to save it or > > open it. Saving it I now have their javascript file on hand. I have > > attached it for general perusal and comment. > > [...] - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ihD/b1CLurEA6xURAhs2AJ9mMlQeRuG2R28x79QXppO9QVYNzwCgilPn GruWkLFWOaHsDflYAXz0TBw= =lnSW -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 06:48, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call > linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java or > javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). a convoluted attempt to make java do php *grin* > One error message I > received when trying to bypass their filters for Netscape or IE indicated > that they are using Apache Tomcat, Yep needed for jsp. > hence they are not a doze shop (good for > them). At this point, I either assume that konqueror is STILL broken with > regards to javascript (KDE 3.1.3) or they are simply specifically looking for > either mozilla or IE and if detecting neither, produce the download page for > either. Konq still isn't perfect in jscript. > > I tried to reset my password/user ID on the site using konqueror and got this: > - --- > Apache Tomcat/4.0.6 - HTTP Status 404 - /portal/jsp/portal.jsp > > description The requested resource (/portal/jsp/portal.jsp) is not available. > - --- > > praedor > > On Sunday 12 October 2003 02:44 am, James Sparenberg wrote: > > On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:08, Eric Huff wrote: > > > > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account > > > > > information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still > > > > > happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > > > praedor > > > > > > > > oops forgot an example page > > > > > > > > http://supportwizard.com > > > > > > This works fine with firebird. > > > > yep and mozilla and links (graphical) and browsex > > but not in Konqueror. Oh and I did send a mistake. This one is > > perl cgi not asp. I lost my asp link. > > > > James > > > > > eric > > > > > > > > > __ > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > > > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com > > - -- > I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, > compara > ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that > isn' > t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. > - --Richard Dawkins > Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/iVvQb1CLurEA6xURAvTEAKCo1fwknYvi01BIXzH5XE0D6hOt3wCfUBNz > PeWz6Ezjv2UbYnfoYGKzCjc= > =s8of > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sorry...I suppose I shouldn't have attached anything. On Sunday 12 October 2003 03:01 pm, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > Thanks, but that didn't work. I did manage to download their > browsercheck.js file however. Google couldn't find it and I couldn't > "load" it in konqueror. I ended up simply trying to load > https://homebanking.purdueefcu.com/homebanking/js/browsercheck.js and > konqueror came back with the dialog box asking if I wanted to save it or > open it. Saving it I now have their javascript file on hand. I have > attached it for general perusal and comment. [...] - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ibT/b1CLurEA6xURAtceAKCM4s8Je/QRE+1hZOdkWxFhuzcBTACcCov0 79ptNNLrqzDKy7YRAIvHLJ0= =8Ko4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thanks, but that didn't work. I did manage to download their browsercheck.js file however. Google couldn't find it and I couldn't "load" it in konqueror. I ended up simply trying to load https://homebanking.purdueefcu.com/homebanking/js/browsercheck.js and konqueror came back with the dialog box asking if I wanted to save it or open it. Saving it I now have their javascript file on hand. I have attached it for general perusal and comment. On Sunday 12 October 2003 10:50 am, Jack Coates wrote: > Bad form, bad form... tsk. You might get lucky with google: try > searching for > > browsercheck.js site:your.credit.union > > If you can get the browsercheck, I'll help you show them how to make it > only match IE vs. Other. It's probably two hundred lines long and > testing for Netscape 3 and other anachronistic crap. > > Jack > > On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 07:34, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > There is a ref to a browser check script but I am not certain where its > > root lies, so I am not sure what webpage to pass a mozilla user agent id > > to: > > > > > > > > > > > > doBrowserCheck(); > > > > > > I have tried simply added the previous root URL and subdirectory to the > > browsercheck.js line (replacing the ../../) but it doesn't work. I am > > assuming I am adding the wrong root or that this wouldn't work in any > > case because of the way it is called. > > > > praedor > > > > On Sunday 12 October 2003 09:27 am, Jack Coates wrote: > > > On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 06:48, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would > > > > call linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system > > > > using java or javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One > > > > error message I > > > > > > Java server pages, served from a Java application platform (Tomcat in > > > this case). Try looking at the source of the pages that give you > > > trouble though, there might be JavaScript embedded or referenced which > > > could include browser detection code. > > > > - -- > > I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, > > compara > > ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief > > that isn' > > t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. > > - --Richard Dawkins > > Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > > > iD8DBQE/iWaRb1CLurEA6xURAkHBAJ0dmFbiCSg3FH//k88QPo6NiqaTgwCfYf65 > > YZWNtQedtRdBex0JCk6CYPc= > > =uj78 > > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > > > > __ > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ibMnb1CLurEA6xURAl4gAKCexjeEjyX/WQ8cMrMCIkMPRIAONACeNUTc l9FZNtVNYp27I4wH4symdr8= =O8Qg -END PGP SIGNATURE- // end hide JavaScript Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Bad form, bad form... tsk. You might get lucky with google: try searching for browsercheck.js site:your.credit.union If you can get the browsercheck, I'll help you show them how to make it only match IE vs. Other. It's probably two hundred lines long and testing for Netscape 3 and other anachronistic crap. Jack On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 07:34, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > There is a ref to a browser check script but I am not certain where its root > lies, so I am not sure what webpage to pass a mozilla user agent id to: > > > > > > doBrowserCheck(); > > > I have tried simply added the previous root URL and subdirectory to the > browsercheck.js line (replacing the ../../) but it doesn't work. I am > assuming I am adding the wrong root or that this wouldn't work in any case > because of the way it is called. > > praedor > > On Sunday 12 October 2003 09:27 am, Jack Coates wrote: > > On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 06:48, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call > > > linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java > > > or javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One error message I > > > > Java server pages, served from a Java application platform (Tomcat in > > this case). Try looking at the source of the pages that give you trouble > > though, there might be JavaScript embedded or referenced which could > > include browser detection code. > > - -- > I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, > compara > ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that > isn' > t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. > - --Richard Dawkins > Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/iWaRb1CLurEA6xURAkHBAJ0dmFbiCSg3FH//k88QPo6NiqaTgwCfYf65 > YZWNtQedtRdBex0JCk6CYPc= > =uj78 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 There is a ref to a browser check script but I am not certain where its root lies, so I am not sure what webpage to pass a mozilla user agent id to: doBrowserCheck(); I have tried simply added the previous root URL and subdirectory to the browsercheck.js line (replacing the ../../) but it doesn't work. I am assuming I am adding the wrong root or that this wouldn't work in any case because of the way it is called. praedor On Sunday 12 October 2003 09:27 am, Jack Coates wrote: > On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 06:48, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call > > linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java > > or javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One error message I > > Java server pages, served from a Java application platform (Tomcat in > this case). Try looking at the source of the pages that give you trouble > though, there might be JavaScript embedded or referenced which could > include browser detection code. - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, compara ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn' t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/iWaRb1CLurEA6xURAkHBAJ0dmFbiCSg3FH//k88QPo6NiqaTgwCfYf65 YZWNtQedtRdBex0JCk6CYPc= =uj78 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sun, 2003-10-12 at 06:48, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call > linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java or > javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One error message I Java server pages, served from a Java application platform (Tomcat in this case). Try looking at the source of the pages that give you trouble though, there might be JavaScript embedded or referenced which could include browser detection code. > received when trying to bypass their filters for Netscape or IE indicated > that they are using Apache Tomcat, hence they are not a doze shop (good for > them). At this point, I either assume that konqueror is STILL broken with > regards to javascript (KDE 3.1.3) or they are simply specifically looking for > either mozilla or IE and if detecting neither, produce the download page for > either. > > I tried to reset my password/user ID on the site using konqueror and got this: > - --- > Apache Tomcat/4.0.6 - HTTP Status 404 - /portal/jsp/portal.jsp > > description The requested resource (/portal/jsp/portal.jsp) is not available. > - --- > > praedor > > On Sunday 12 October 2003 02:44 am, James Sparenberg wrote: > > On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:08, Eric Huff wrote: > > > > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account > > > > > information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still > > > > > happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > > > praedor > > > > > > > > oops forgot an example page > > > > > > > > http://supportwizard.com > > > > > > This works fine with firebird. > > > > yep and mozilla and links (graphical) and browsex > > but not in Konqueror. Oh and I did send a mistake. This one is > > perl cgi not asp. I lost my asp link. > > > > James > > > > > eric > > > > > > > > > __ > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > > > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com > > - -- > I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, > compara > ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that > isn' > t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. > - --Richard Dawkins > Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/iVvQb1CLurEA6xURAvTEAKCo1fwknYvi01BIXzH5XE0D6hOt3wCfUBNz > PeWz6Ezjv2UbYnfoYGKzCjc= > =s8of > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 More messing around. I have used mozilla to identify all the key javascript pages and entered them into the user agent box for konqueror, instructing konqueror to identify itself as mozilla 4.76 or 5.5. I can now briefly get to the pages but shortly after they load, normally and without problems I might add, I get bumped over to the download page for IE or Netscape again. Progress, but still they are getting past my user agent ID in the end and kicking me out. I want to beat them. Any pointers? praedor On Sunday 12 October 2003 08:48 am, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call > linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java > or javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One error message I > received when trying to bypass their filters for Netscape or IE indicated > that they are using Apache Tomcat, hence they are not a doze shop (good for > them). At this point, I either assume that konqueror is STILL broken with > regards to javascript (KDE 3.1.3) or they are simply specifically looking > for either mozilla or IE and if detecting neither, produce the download > page for either. > > I tried to reset my password/user ID on the site using konqueror and got > this: --- > Apache Tomcat/4.0.6 - HTTP Status 404 - /portal/jsp/portal.jsp > > description The requested resource (/portal/jsp/portal.jsp) is not > available. --- > > praedor > > On Sunday 12 October 2003 02:44 am, James Sparenberg wrote: > > On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:08, Eric Huff wrote: > > > > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account > > > > > information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still > > > > > happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > > > praedor > > > > > > > > oops forgot an example page > > > > > > > > http://supportwizard.com > > > > > > This works fine with firebird. > > > > yep and mozilla and links (graphical) and browsex > > but not in Konqueror. Oh and I did send a mistake. This one is > > perl cgi not asp. I lost my asp link. > > > > James > > > > > eric > > > > > > > > > __ > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > > > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, compara ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn' t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/iV5gb1CLurEA6xURAgXPAJ42FsSo7ZKYt+nO+reJ7iMc1KX+fgCgpEHO U+uS5kiBaB3UGf6EQGNmuec= =ys6N -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A little checking and I see that my credit union isn't what I would call linux-unfriendly, just konqueror unfriendly. The login system using java or javascript (*.jsp...is that java or javascript?). One error message I received when trying to bypass their filters for Netscape or IE indicated that they are using Apache Tomcat, hence they are not a doze shop (good for them). At this point, I either assume that konqueror is STILL broken with regards to javascript (KDE 3.1.3) or they are simply specifically looking for either mozilla or IE and if detecting neither, produce the download page for either. I tried to reset my password/user ID on the site using konqueror and got this: - --- Apache Tomcat/4.0.6 - HTTP Status 404 - /portal/jsp/portal.jsp description The requested resource (/portal/jsp/portal.jsp) is not available. - --- praedor On Sunday 12 October 2003 02:44 am, James Sparenberg wrote: > On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:08, Eric Huff wrote: > > > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account > > > > information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still > > > > happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always > > > > work. > > > > > > > > praedor > > > > > > oops forgot an example page > > > > > > http://supportwizard.com > > > > This works fine with firebird. > > yep and mozilla and links (graphical) and browsex > but not in Konqueror. Oh and I did send a mistake. This one is > perl cgi not asp. I lost my asp link. > > James > > > eric > > > > > > __ > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com - -- I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, compara ble to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. Faith, being belief that isn' t based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. - --Richard Dawkins Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/iVvQb1CLurEA6xURAvTEAKCo1fwknYvi01BIXzH5XE0D6hOt3wCfUBNz PeWz6Ezjv2UbYnfoYGKzCjc= =s8of -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 18:44, Tim Sawchuck wrote: > On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:16:01 -0400 > Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > A recent experience: > > During dinner a week or so back, SheThatIs decreed that the purchase and > > installation of a new mailbox and post was essential to my continued > > happiness. There are two major sources for such purchases in this neck of > > the woods -- Lowe's and Home Depot. Wanting to eliminate schlepping > > between the two stores, I decided to visit to each company's web site to > > compare their offerings. Fired up Konq, went to Lowe's, and saw what they > > had. Next stop, Home Depot. Oops! Some nitwit has decided that since I > > would not be able to enjoy the full benefits of their site because I was > > not running either Netscape 4.0 or IE 4.0; further access was denied. > > > > The next morning I dropped about $150 at Lowe's for the mailbox, mailbox > > post, and some other stuff. > > > > Yes, I could reconfigure to Konq to get past Home Depot's barrier, but why > > the hell should I? They are the ones trying to sell something to me. > > > > And yes, I thought about sending them a nastygram, but that was not in the > > > > list of options. (Remember when every website had a Contact Webmaster > > link?) Then too, would anyone who considers Netscape 4.0 and IE 4.0 to be > > the latest and greatest understand my complaint? The idiot must still > > think it's 1997. > > I have done that three times (I'm old enough to blame the fact that I forget > about Home Depot and Konq), each time I send a postcard addressed to the > manager of the local store about the situation. > > Third time I got a reply back apologizing, explaining that it was handled by > corporate, AND a nice juicy discount coupon (that I may or may not use). > I'd be interested to hear his explanation about why he was offering 50% off > for an old senile linux geek. ;-) > > Tim Tim just for fun I ran Mozilla and IE6 against the site. They are half right. They don't work with IE6 ... but they work fine with Mozilla *grin* Guess they are a Linux site after all. And I may have a reason. It's running Netscape server on hp-ux. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 15:08, Eric Huff wrote: > > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account > > > information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still > > > happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always > > > work. > > > > > > praedor > > > > oops forgot an example page > > > > http://supportwizard.com > > This works fine with firebird. yep and mozilla and links (graphical) and browsex but not in Konqueror. Oh and I did send a mistake. This one is perl cgi not asp. I lost my asp link. James > > > eric > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 18:16, Carroll Grigsby wrote: ... > And yes, I thought about sending them a nastygram, but that was not in the > list of options. (Remember when every website had a Contact Webmaster link?) > Then too, would anyone who considers Netscape 4.0 and IE 4.0 to be the latest > and greatest understand my complaint? The idiot must still think it's 1997. ... entirely too many of these etiquette-less morons about trying to run websites these days. I've had a long drawn-out experience with a long-distance company whose MS-SQL server was always down when I tried to pay my bill. Consequently, they didn't get their bill paid until they got around to fixing it, which took three months because they didn't know it had broken. I and any number of others could have told them, if they hadn't disabled all the standard *master@ addresses. They now have prominent "Contact Us" links all over the place :-P I imagine, given the three month time frame, that no one had any idea there was a problem until some automated system attempted to hand two thirds of the membership over to collections. -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:29:09 -0400 Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Saturday 11 October 2003 09:44 pm, Tim Sawchuck wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:16:01 -0400 > > > > Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> snipped long rant about trying to access Home Depot website from Konq > > > > I have done that three times (I'm old enough to blame the fact that I > > forget about Home Depot and Konq), each time I send a postcard addressed > > to the manager of the local store about the situation. > > > > Third time I got a reply back apologizing, explaining that it was > > handled by corporate, AND a nice juicy discount coupon (that I may or > > may not use). I'd be interested to hear his explanation about why he was > > offering 50% off for an old senile linux geek. ;-) > > > > Tim > > Tim: > Good for you. And good for the guy who runs your local Home Depot. He > seems to understand that every dollar spent at a competitive store is a > buck that he won't get. But the root cause -- the idiot webmaster -- still > remains. Now that you and the store manager are buddy-buddy, is there any > chance of learning either the e-mail or snail mail address of whoever it > is that has custody of the idiot? I'd be interesting in laying a few lines > on him.-- cmg He stated that his district manager knew of numerous complaints (?) throughout the area and that they were getting the word up the chain to corporate and whoever made the choice, or was just lazy and followed the Microsoft instruction book(yah, right). Tim -- ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign against HTML e-mail x registered Linux user # 329428 / \ GnuPG KeyID 6B5A70DF www.keyserver.net Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 October 11, 2003 07:16 pm, Carroll Grigsby wrote: > On Saturday 11 October 2003 10:24 am, Eric Huff wrote: > > > Honestly, maybe I don't hang out in the right places or something, > > > but my wife and I do almost everything online using Mozilla and > > > Galeon and hardly ever run into this problem. It's been at least a > > > year since the last time I had to show her how to spoof a browser > > > ID with Konqueror. > > > > It still happens. There are a couple sites (which i can't remember > > now) i need that does, and people on newbie mention it every so > > often. I always send them a letter asking to remove such a useless > > requirement... > > > > eric > > A recent experience: > During dinner a week or so back, SheThatIs decreed that the purchase and > installation of a new mailbox and post was essential to my continued > happiness. There are two major sources for such purchases in this neck of > the woods -- Lowe's and Home Depot. Wanting to eliminate schlepping between > the two stores, I decided to visit to each company's web site to compare > their offerings. Fired up Konq, went to Lowe's, and saw what they had. Next > stop, Home Depot. Oops! Some nitwit has decided that since I would not be > able to enjoy the full benefits of their site because I was not running > either Netscape 4.0 or IE 4.0; further access was denied. > > The next morning I dropped about $150 at Lowe's for the mailbox, mailbox > post, and some other stuff. > > Yes, I could reconfigure to Konq to get past Home Depot's barrier, but why > the hell should I? They are the ones trying to sell something to me. > > And yes, I thought about sending them a nastygram, but that was not in the > list of options. (Remember when every website had a Contact Webmaster > link?) Then too, would anyone who considers Netscape 4.0 and IE 4.0 to be > the latest and greatest understand my complaint? The idiot must still think > it's 1997. > > -- cmg I find that rather astonishing since, according to friends that work at a local branch of Home Depot, their servers are all running HP Ux. At least it ain't W2k3 or another MS Virus Transport System. I also thought I read recently that they were converting the whole operation to GNU/Linux. Or just investigating the possibility maybe. Netcraft doesn't say anything about GNU/Linux though: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=homedepot.com They should just string up their webmasters. Please ignore the Fortune. This computer is as weird as its owner. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 21:12:56 up 21 days, 10:35, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.29, 0.47 Laughing at you is like drop kicking a wounded humming bird. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/iMmbG11CaRuZZSIRAlI9AJ9uOmHU7iKaNO6+kcKB8g954LDFngCfSu5U +keiJg6MJIAbvX8VwQNLy4k= =uuqy -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Saturday 11 October 2003 09:44 pm, Tim Sawchuck wrote: > On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:16:01 -0400 > > Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> snipped long rant about trying to access Home Depot website from Konq > I have done that three times (I'm old enough to blame the fact that I > forget about Home Depot and Konq), each time I send a postcard addressed to > the manager of the local store about the situation. > > Third time I got a reply back apologizing, explaining that it was handled > by corporate, AND a nice juicy discount coupon (that I may or may not use). > I'd be interested to hear his explanation about why he was offering 50% off > for an old senile linux geek. ;-) > > Tim Tim: Good for you. And good for the guy who runs your local Home Depot. He seems to understand that every dollar spent at a competitive store is a buck that he won't get. But the root cause -- the idiot webmaster -- still remains. Now that you and the store manager are buddy-buddy, is there any chance of learning either the e-mail or snail mail address of whoever it is that has custody of the idiot? I'd be interesting in laying a few lines on him. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:16:01 -0400 Carroll Grigsby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A recent experience: > During dinner a week or so back, SheThatIs decreed that the purchase and > installation of a new mailbox and post was essential to my continued > happiness. There are two major sources for such purchases in this neck of > the woods -- Lowe's and Home Depot. Wanting to eliminate schlepping > between the two stores, I decided to visit to each company's web site to > compare their offerings. Fired up Konq, went to Lowe's, and saw what they > had. Next stop, Home Depot. Oops! Some nitwit has decided that since I > would not be able to enjoy the full benefits of their site because I was > not running either Netscape 4.0 or IE 4.0; further access was denied. > > The next morning I dropped about $150 at Lowe's for the mailbox, mailbox > post, and some other stuff. > > Yes, I could reconfigure to Konq to get past Home Depot's barrier, but why > the hell should I? They are the ones trying to sell something to me. > > And yes, I thought about sending them a nastygram, but that was not in the > > list of options. (Remember when every website had a Contact Webmaster > link?) Then too, would anyone who considers Netscape 4.0 and IE 4.0 to be > the latest and greatest understand my complaint? The idiot must still > think it's 1997. I have done that three times (I'm old enough to blame the fact that I forget about Home Depot and Konq), each time I send a postcard addressed to the manager of the local store about the situation. Third time I got a reply back apologizing, explaining that it was handled by corporate, AND a nice juicy discount coupon (that I may or may not use). I'd be interested to hear his explanation about why he was offering 50% off for an old senile linux geek. ;-) Tim -- ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign against HTML e-mail x registered Linux user # 329428 / \ GnuPG KeyID 6B5A70DF www.keyserver.net Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Saturday 11 October 2003 10:24 am, Eric Huff wrote: > > Honestly, maybe I don't hang out in the right places or something, > > but my wife and I do almost everything online using Mozilla and > > Galeon and hardly ever run into this problem. It's been at least a > > year since the last time I had to show her how to spoof a browser > > ID with Konqueror. > > It still happens. There are a couple sites (which i can't remember > now) i need that does, and people on newbie mention it every so > often. I always send them a letter asking to remove such a useless > requirement... > > eric A recent experience: During dinner a week or so back, SheThatIs decreed that the purchase and installation of a new mailbox and post was essential to my continued happiness. There are two major sources for such purchases in this neck of the woods -- Lowe's and Home Depot. Wanting to eliminate schlepping between the two stores, I decided to visit to each company's web site to compare their offerings. Fired up Konq, went to Lowe's, and saw what they had. Next stop, Home Depot. Oops! Some nitwit has decided that since I would not be able to enjoy the full benefits of their site because I was not running either Netscape 4.0 or IE 4.0; further access was denied. The next morning I dropped about $150 at Lowe's for the mailbox, mailbox post, and some other stuff. Yes, I could reconfigure to Konq to get past Home Depot's barrier, but why the hell should I? They are the ones trying to sell something to me. And yes, I thought about sending them a nastygram, but that was not in the list of options. (Remember when every website had a Contact Webmaster link?) Then too, would anyone who considers Netscape 4.0 and IE 4.0 to be the latest and greatest understand my complaint? The idiot must still think it's 1997. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
> > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account > > information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still > > happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always > > work. > > > > praedor > > oops forgot an example page > > http://supportwizard.com This works fine with firebird. eric Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 13:34, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > In spite of repeated (nice) complaints from myself, my credit union still > dorks me over whenever I try to access MY account information via the web > using konqueror. > > I set it to identify itself as netscape OR explorer but it doesn't work, they > redirect me to a download page and expect me to either download netscape or > IE. I don't (yet) know by what means they are detecting that my browser > isn't mozilla or IE but it pisses me off no end. I prefer konqueror. > Konqueror is a GOOD browser capable of handling any and all _proper_ web > protocols. I have tried suggesting to them that they provide a button to go > on anyway without downloading either browser if they insist on forcing people > to this page but they just wont do this one simple thing. > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account information > USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still happen, this nonsense, and > spoofing a browser doesn't always work. > > praedor oops forgot an example page http://supportwizard.com James > > On Saturday 11 October 2003 09:24 am, Eric Huff wrote: > > > Honestly, maybe I don't hang out in the right places or something, > > > but my wife and I do almost everything online using Mozilla and > > > Galeon and hardly ever run into this problem. It's been at least a > > > year since the last time I had to show her how to spoof a browser > > > ID with Konqueror. > > > > It still happens. There are a couple sites (which i can't remember > > now) i need that does, and people on newbie mention it every so > > often. I always send them a letter asking to remove such a useless > > requirement... > > > > eric > > - -- > Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/iGlGb1CLurEA6xURAjhqAJ9knwPlp9Y70CvoieuqgN3aaG+uWgCfVRCZ > IBBaHv3zjmACzP24G0AahA0= > =6+ED > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 13:34, Praedor Atrebates wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > In spite of repeated (nice) complaints from myself, my credit union still > dorks me over whenever I try to access MY account information via the web > using konqueror. > > I set it to identify itself as netscape OR explorer but it doesn't work, they > redirect me to a download page and expect me to either download netscape or > IE. I don't (yet) know by what means they are detecting that my browser > isn't mozilla or IE but it pisses me off no end. I prefer konqueror. > Konqueror is a GOOD browser capable of handling any and all _proper_ web > protocols. I have tried suggesting to them that they provide a button to go > on anyway without downloading either browser if they insist on forcing people > to this page but they just wont do this one simple thing. > > I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account information > USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still happen, this nonsense, and > spoofing a browser doesn't always work. > > praedor praedor, do they use asp? I've seen a number of asp generated pages that barely work in Moz and IE let alone Konq. James > > On Saturday 11 October 2003 09:24 am, Eric Huff wrote: > > > Honestly, maybe I don't hang out in the right places or something, > > > but my wife and I do almost everything online using Mozilla and > > > Galeon and hardly ever run into this problem. It's been at least a > > > year since the last time I had to show her how to spoof a browser > > > ID with Konqueror. > > > > It still happens. There are a couple sites (which i can't remember > > now) i need that does, and people on newbie mention it every so > > often. I always send them a letter asking to remove such a useless > > requirement... > > > > eric > > - -- > Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQE/iGlGb1CLurEA6xURAjhqAJ9knwPlp9Y70CvoieuqgN3aaG+uWgCfVRCZ > IBBaHv3zjmACzP24G0AahA0= > =6+ED > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Am Samstag, 11. Oktober 2003 21:20 schrieb ed tharp: > IIRC, IE doesn't support 'blink'... it's wasted AFAIK its an IE only tag, so it should work on IE at least. Ooops, no it was a proprietary netscape thing. marquee was IE only. Steffen Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 In spite of repeated (nice) complaints from myself, my credit union still dorks me over whenever I try to access MY account information via the web using konqueror. I set it to identify itself as netscape OR explorer but it doesn't work, they redirect me to a download page and expect me to either download netscape or IE. I don't (yet) know by what means they are detecting that my browser isn't mozilla or IE but it pisses me off no end. I prefer konqueror. Konqueror is a GOOD browser capable of handling any and all _proper_ web protocols. I have tried suggesting to them that they provide a button to go on anyway without downloading either browser if they insist on forcing people to this page but they just wont do this one simple thing. I am DETERMINED to get past their nonsense and access my account information USING KONQUEROR DAMNIT! So there. It does still happen, this nonsense, and spoofing a browser doesn't always work. praedor On Saturday 11 October 2003 09:24 am, Eric Huff wrote: > > Honestly, maybe I don't hang out in the right places or something, > > but my wife and I do almost everything online using Mozilla and > > Galeon and hardly ever run into this problem. It's been at least a > > year since the last time I had to show her how to spoof a browser > > ID with Konqueror. > > It still happens. There are a couple sites (which i can't remember > now) i need that does, and people on newbie mention it every so > often. I always send them a letter asking to remove such a useless > requirement... > > eric - -- Key fingerprint = D6F9 8682 2257 2871 10C6 DB92 6F50 8BBA B100 EB15 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/iGlGb1CLurEA6xURAjhqAJ9knwPlp9Y70CvoieuqgN3aaG+uWgCfVRCZ IBBaHv3zjmACzP24G0AahA0= =6+ED -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 17:24, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:41:46 -0700 > Jack Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > It comes up right next to the Apache button if MSIE is used to visit > > any of my web pages. This looks to me like the best balance of > > advocacy without limiting choice. > > Wow. I actually maybe kinda somehow in a small way started something. > > There's two people. > > Any more? > > BTW, I like the , it's just annoying enough to work! ;-) > > here's mine: > > www.orderinchaos.org/ie_reject.php IIRC, IE doesn't support 'blink'... it's wasted -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:35:50 -0700 James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Clean design. Considering the box it's coming off of and the "line" > bandwidth you have... snappy too. That box is downloading Apocalypse Now at about 25 KB/s as we speak too! Good ol' IBM, that thing just never quits... -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful than the sun." "Why?", he was asked. "Because at night we need the light more." Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 04:36, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:56:51 -0700 > James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > Ya might want to link out to this site. > > > > http://reactor-core.org > > > > or at least some of the stuff he has. > > Wow, great site, thanks! Now I can become even *more* paranoid ;-) Just cause your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't there. *grin* Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 04:40, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:54:27 -0700 > James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > > > Ok easiest way is via javascript check out the redirection scripts > > here. > > http://www.scriptsearch.com/JavaScript/Scripts/Redirection/ > > Doesn't XP come *without* Java now? Or is Java executed on the server > like PHP? javascript != java. Javascript is a client side scripting language executed in and by the users browser. In fact javascript (a netscape creation) pre-dates java. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 14:24, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:41:46 -0700 > Jack Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > It comes up right next to the Apache button if MSIE is used to visit > > any of my web pages. This looks to me like the best balance of > > advocacy without limiting choice. > > Wow. I actually maybe kinda somehow in a small way started something. > > There's two people. > > Any more? > > BTW, I like the , it's just annoying enough to work! ;-) > > here's mine: > > www.orderinchaos.org/ie_reject.php Clean design. Considering the box it's coming off of and the "line" bandwidth you have... snappy too. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Saturday 11 Oct 2003 2:38 pm, HaywireMac wrote: > On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:36:06 -0700 > > Jack Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > Doesn't XP come *without* Java now? Or is Java executed on the > > > server like PHP? > > > > Java != JavaScript. > > > > Java is a C++ like object oriented language designed to write once, > > run anywhere via virtual machines. > > > > JavaScript is a scripting language for web browsers written by > > Netscape, which happened to come out at a time when Netscape was > > desparate to get some of the hype surrounding Java pointed their way. > > Its formal name is ECMAScript, but no one uses that name. JavaScript > > is good for automating stuff, writing calculators, filling in forms > > &c, but there's no disk or network access (in theory). > > So a Javascript then would not require the browser to have the Java VM > installed? It runs on the server side like PHP? > > Just wanna make sure I get the concept... ;-) No, it executes on the client side, but it is supported by just about every browser. Check out www.soronlin.org.uk/geekquiz.html for an example. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:36:06 -0700 Jack Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Doesn't XP come *without* Java now? Or is Java executed on the > > server like PHP? > > Java != JavaScript. > > Java is a C++ like object oriented language designed to write once, > run anywhere via virtual machines. > > JavaScript is a scripting language for web browsers written by > Netscape, which happened to come out at a time when Netscape was > desparate to get some of the hype surrounding Java pointed their way. > Its formal name is ECMAScript, but no one uses that name. JavaScript > is good for automating stuff, writing calculators, filling in forms > &c, but there's no disk or network access (in theory). So a Javascript then would not require the browser to have the Java VM installed? It runs on the server side like PHP? Just wanna make sure I get the concept... ;-) -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying. -- Baba Ram Dass Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 04:40, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:54:27 -0700 > James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > > > Ok easiest way is via javascript check out the redirection scripts > > here. > > http://www.scriptsearch.com/JavaScript/Scripts/Redirection/ > > Doesn't XP come *without* Java now? Or is Java executed on the server > like PHP? Java != JavaScript. Java is a C++ like object oriented language designed to write once, run anywhere via virtual machines. JavaScript is a scripting language for web browsers written by Netscape, which happened to come out at a time when Netscape was desparate to get some of the hype surrounding Java pointed their way. Its formal name is ECMAScript, but no one uses that name. JavaScript is good for automating stuff, writing calculators, filling in forms &c, but there's no disk or network access (in theory). -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:54:27 -0700 James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Ok easiest way is via javascript check out the redirection scripts > here. > http://www.scriptsearch.com/JavaScript/Scripts/Redirection/ Doesn't XP come *without* Java now? Or is Java executed on the server like PHP? -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know. -- Lao Tsu Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:47:05 -0700 James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > I like the idea of just confusing them.. Run a javascript that pops up > a message that says. "You are not standards compatible" When it sees > IE and an OK button. Has no affect on them but confuses the heck out > of them. *evil grin* Ya, imagine IE being called "not standards compatible". Oh, wait, it violates every RFC in existence... Not such a bad idea, at least for the humour aspect. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Your picture of the world often changes just before you get it into focus. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:56:51 -0700 James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Ya might want to link out to this site. > > http://reactor-core.org > > or at least some of the stuff he has. Wow, great site, thanks! Now I can become even *more* paranoid ;-) -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: "Now it's complete because it's ended here." -- Muad'dib, "Dune" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:12:36 +0200 "H.J.Bathoorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > I know that, you know thatthey don't! They just acquire an > unbootable Winders and have it re-installed, with the local M$ wizard > telling 'em: "Yeah that's what you get when you start messing with > this open source stuff!" I don't think I'm encouraging anyone to actually remove IE, but maybe I'll make a note on that on my ie_reject page just in case... "You do *not* need to remove IE, just don't use it while you are exploring all the web has to offer you in terms of Open Source Software..." -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ If your happiness depends on what somebody else does, I guess you do have a problem. -- Richard Bach, "Illusions" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Saturday 11 October 2003 06:01, James Sparenberg wrote: I> Ah but it can be removed! check out > > http://www.litepc.com/ I know that, you know thatthey don't! They just acquire an unbootable Winders and have it re-installed, with the local M$ wizard telling 'em: "Yeah that's what you get when you start messing with this open source stuff!" Good luck, HarM -- Mandrake HowTo's & more: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Jack Coates mused: [snip] > look at how little the growth is for XP, .NET extensions, all that > hype. > Win98 is being abandoned, but for Linux and Win2000. And look at > the > huge increase in Mozilla on Windows. That´s pretty cool! Maybe a trend? It´s amazing how many people I run into nowadays who´ve at least tried linux compared to a couple of years ago when no one knew what it was. Just about 5 years ago I was an m$ advocate and balked at mozilla - times sure change :) -- Michael Holt Snohomish, WA (o_ [EMAIL PROTECTED](o_ (o_ //\ www.holt-tech.net(/)_ (/)_ V_/_www.mandrake.com < ¨There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those that understand binary, and those that don´t¨ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
argh... I knew that would be mangled, but I didn't know how badly: 8.69% MSIE6 XP 7.77% Gecko X 6.97% MSIE6 XP.NET 3.63% Konq X 6.51% MSIE6 2K 2.49% Gecko XP 5.49% MSIE6 2K.NET 2.00% Gecko X 1.89% MSIE6 W98 1.38% Gecko X 1.31% Gecko XP 1.28% Gecko W98 1.26% Gecko X 1.21% Gecko 2K 29.55%22.33% winders linux (no other unices) > maybe times are already changing... here's the same stats from November > of last year (a lot less traffic back then, too): > 7.65% MSIE6 XP 8.11% Gecko X 5.58% MSIE5 W98 2.68% Gecko X 4.48% MSIE6 2K 2.43% Gecko X 3.41% MSIE5 2K 1.87% Konq X 2.19% MSIE6 2K.NET 1.75% Gecko X 2.16% MSIE6 XP.NET 1.68% MSIE6 W98 27.15% 16.84% winders linux (no other unices) > look at how little the growth is for XP, .NET extensions, all that hype. > Win98 is being abandoned, but for Linux and Win2000. And look at the > huge increase in Mozilla on Windows. -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 14:24, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:41:46 -0700 > Jack Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > It comes up right next to the Apache button if MSIE is used to visit > > any of my web pages. This looks to me like the best balance of > > advocacy without limiting choice. > > Wow. I actually maybe kinda somehow in a small way started something. > > There's two people. > > Any more? > > BTW, I like the , it's just annoying enough to work! ;-) > Unfortunately, it seems not to work in IE6/W2K under VMWare. I'll just have to write a blink function in JavaScript instead, Muhwhahaha!! or a popup!!! Interestingly enough, I got curious and checked out my webalizer stats for October, web spiders filtered out. Granted, monkeynoodle.org is chock-full of Linux info and gathers a certain crowd, but look at this: 8.69% MSIE6 XP 7.77% Gecko X 6.97% MSIE6 XP.NET 3.63% Konq X 6.51% MSIE6 2K 2.49% Gecko XP 5.49% MSIE6 2K.NET 2.00% Gecko X 1.89% MSIE6 W98 1.38% Gecko X 1.31% Gecko XP 1.28% Gecko W98 1.26% Gecko X 1.21% Gecko 2K 29.55% 22.33% winders linux (no other unices) maybe times are already changing... here's the same stats from November of last year (a lot less traffic back then, too): 7.65% MSIE6 XP 8.11% Gecko X 5.58% MSIE5 W98 2.68% Gecko X 4.48% MSIE6 2K 2.43% Gecko X 3.41% MSIE5 2K 1.87% Konq X 2.19% MSIE6 2K.NET 1.75% Gecko X 2.16% MSIE6 XP.NET 1.68% MSIE6 W98 27.15% 16.84% winders linux (no other unices) look at how little the growth is for XP, .NET extensions, all that hype. Win98 is being abandoned, but for Linux and Win2000. And look at the huge increase in Mozilla on Windows. -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 08:41, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: > On Friday 10 October 2003 18:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > this would allow even the > > newbie-est to find and install whatever flavor tickles their > > tastebuds with a minimum of effort or understnding on their part. > > Right up to the point where they uninstall explorer, thinking they won't be > needing it anymore. That way it's dead certain they'll never touch > free-software again for a long time to come! Ah but it can be removed! check out http://www.litepc.com/ or http://members.shaw.ca/dteyn/ie-free/ It is possible to remove winterwet exploder even from 2000 and XP if you do it right. James > > Educating people is no easy chore, 'specially if they don't want to be. > > Good luck, > harM > > > > > > but i do love the reversal of fortunes this initiates *g* Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
bOn Fri, 2003-10-10 at 18:26, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:14:30 -0700 > James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > HaywireMac, > > > >If I were going to do this I'd go to one of the javascript sites > >grab > > a browser detection script and use it to re-direct the IE users. > > Already done using PHP, try loading my site using IE and you'll see, > many thanks to J.C. Woods for this link: > > http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml > > Still gotta do some writin', but I think it's coming together, > especially with a link to some great info on MS's nefarious plans for > the future courtesy of Bryan. > > It's a crusade! but without any mass slaughtering and all that > nastiness. Ya might want to link out to this site. http://reactor-core.org or at least some of the stuff he has. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 08:15, J.C. Woods wrote: > Miark wrote: > > >This may be just me, but "locking out" anybody based on their browser is > >not a tactic that is compatible or consistent with the Open Source way. > > > >In fact I think it's below us. We should be taking the high road and > >setting an example cuz 1) that's the quality of people we want to be. 2) > >We don't want Linux users developing a reputation of warring against M$. > >We about being pro-Linux, not anti-M$. 3) It punishes computer users who > >are too inexperienced to know how to change their browser. And 4) which > >is perhaps the most important, our way is of freedom--including the > >freedom to use the software we want. It would be the height of hypocrisy > >for legions of Linux webmasters to laud freedom while compelling > >visitors to use or not use software of their choice. It just ain't us. > > > >Miark > > > > > Your missing the point, Miark. This is not what HMac is doing (and do > jump in if I have you wrong, HMac). He is not concerned with hostile > attitudes against those that use IE: he is against the Corporation that > has shown very little regard for your security, and they are costing you > money right now! Don't take my word for it, just fire up some sniffer of > your own choosing, i.e. ethereal, and have a look at the cluster-fuck > out there. I pay good money for my dsl, and, because of a plethora of > bogus, virus-oriented traffic due to M$, i.e. rpc exploits (port 135), > netbios exploits (port 138 and port 139), SMB exploits (port 445), IIS > exploits (all http and https ports), and all the other email virus that > bottlenecks the internet (I think the list could go on ad infinitum), I > pay by not having but maybe, at best, 80 percent of my pipe. > > What it seems like to me, is that HaywireMac is on an educational > crusade, and I, for one, laud him on this endeavor. The re-direct page > can be done in a really well thought out fashion. Wording can be > included that will help others get the hell off of anything to do with > M$. That kind of effort will certainly have Billy re-tooling his > thinking. It is time for us all to make a stand. > > > Go for it, WildMan > > drjung \ Ok easiest way is via javascript check out the redirection scripts here. http://www.scriptsearch.com/JavaScript/Scripts/Redirection/ James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 07:14, Miark wrote: > This may be just me, but "locking out" anybody based on their browser is > not a tactic that is compatible or consistent with the Open Source way. > > In fact I think it's below us. We should be taking the high road and > setting an example cuz 1) that's the quality of people we want to be. 2) > We don't want Linux users developing a reputation of warring against M$. > We about being pro-Linux, not anti-M$. 3) It punishes computer users who > are too inexperienced to know how to change their browser. And 4) which > is perhaps the most important, our way is of freedom--including the > freedom to use the software we want. It would be the height of hypocrisy > for legions of Linux webmasters to laud freedom while compelling > visitors to use or not use software of their choice. It just ain't us. > > Miark I like the idea of just confusing them.. Run a javascript that pops up a message that says. "You are not standards compatible" When it sees IE and an OK button. Has no affect on them but confuses the heck out of them. *evil grin* James > > > > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:46:18 -0400, HaywireMac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be met with > > a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome?...I would like to > > start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from accessing websites. > > > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:41:46 -0700 Jack Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > It comes up right next to the Apache button if MSIE is used to visit > any of my web pages. This looks to me like the best balance of > advocacy without limiting choice. Wow. I actually maybe kinda somehow in a small way started something. There's two people. Any more? BTW, I like the , it's just annoying enough to work! ;-) here's mine: www.orderinchaos.org/ie_reject.php -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ That, that is, is. That, that is not, is not. That, that is, is not that, that is not. That, that is not, is not that, that is. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
HaywireMac mused: > > How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be > met with > a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome? This is REALLY easy. Here´s a link to read all about: http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml Server side includes are probably the easiest way to do it; no need to even mess with apache (other than setting up the ability to use ssi´s. It´s been a common practice ever since the browser plugin wars. You write one page for the rest of the world and then a specific page for ie. You have to save your pages as .shtml and then make apache aware that you´re using shtml. -- Michael Holt Snohomish, WA (o_ [EMAIL PROTECTED](o_ (o_ //\ www.holt-tech.net(/)_ (/)_ V_/_www.mandrake.com < ¨There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those that understand binary, and those that don´t¨ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:14:30 -0700 James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > HaywireMac, > >If I were going to do this I'd go to one of the javascript sites >grab > a browser detection script and use it to re-direct the IE users. Already done using PHP, try loading my site using IE and you'll see, many thanks to J.C. Woods for this link: http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml Still gotta do some writin', but I think it's coming together, especially with a link to some great info on MS's nefarious plans for the future courtesy of Bryan. It's a crusade! but without any mass slaughtering and all that nastiness. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Faith goes out through the window when beauty comes in at the door. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 05:46, HaywireMac wrote: > How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be met with > a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome? > > Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on the > 'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from > accessing websites. > > Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use an > alternate browser such as Mozilla. HaywireMac, If I were going to do this I'd go to one of the javascript sites grab a browser detection script and use it to re-direct the IE users. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:06:58 -0400 Bryan Phinney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Well, there is a favorite link that I like to send people to when I > want to give them a few reasons to consider switching to Linux from > Windows. > > http://aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html > > The write-up is rather long but very comprehensive and it explains > without a doubt why personal users and small businesses need to start > creating a plan to migrate away from Windows in the next few years. > > If you are interested in being able to give someone some concrete > reasons, he pretty much covers the bases. Covers the bases?! That's downright *scary*. It's perfect ;-) Thanks. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Your picture of the world often changes just before you get it into focus. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 06:21 pm, HaywireMac wrote: > Again, this is just a small gesture, and not just aimed at IE. It's > intended to expose Windows users to alternatives to not just IE, but to > Windows itself, which is why I point to documentation which highlights > the inherant problems with using Windows in general. Even if people > don't take this info as a reason to switch from Win to Lin, it just > might make them think of putting some pressure on MS to make a better > effort at security, or change the direction MS is taking. > > I plan on expanding the offensive to include the objects you mention, > such as Palladium, and the idea of even further integrating, and > therefore exposing to vulnerabilities, Windows OS components. > > MS is going in the wrong direction. I hope I can do my part, however > small, to make people see this, if there's any recommendations you or > anyone else can contribute, I'm certainly open to that. Well, there is a favorite link that I like to send people to when I want to give them a few reasons to consider switching to Linux from Windows. http://aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html The write-up is rather long but very comprehensive and it explains without a doubt why personal users and small businesses need to start creating a plan to migrate away from Windows in the next few years. If you are interested in being able to give someone some concrete reasons, he pretty much covers the bases. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:47:31 -0400 Bryan Phinney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > No, actually, I suspect that they are confirming what I said. They > assume that all of your pages are PHP and that you include the > detection mechanism on all pages. If you were running something like > post-nuke or nuke, or another PHP type of content management system, > you could simply add the code to a template and it would automatically > be placed on every page that was pulled from that template. Since all > pages are created from the same template and generated dynamically, > the code would be on all pages. > > If you had both HTML as well as PHP pages and I had the URL to one of > the HTML pages, I could bypass the code, correct? Correct. I only have 5 pages so, and they're all .php, so, no problemo. > Well, I probably disagree with what you are doing having the result > you intend. There is no point in attempting to get anyone to abandon > IE at this point. MS has already announced that 6.0 will be the last > standalone version of IE. All future versions will only be available > as an integrated part of the Windows OS. So, within a few years, we > will see people moving away from IE if they want to continue to move > forward with technology but still keep running their old OS, be it > windows or otherwise. People who move to the new versions of Windows > are likely not to have any choice since MS plans to close down the OS > to outside development as soon as the Palladium stuff gets going. > > I suspect that third-party applications will only be approved if they > do not directly compete with internal MS applications and browsers do. > Given that, > it is inevitable that Opera, Mozilla and others will be the de-facto > standards for browsers and IE will only maintain what marketshare they > get from the OS itself. Again, this is just a small gesture, and not just aimed at IE. It's intended to expose Windows users to alternatives to not just IE, but to Windows itself, which is why I point to documentation which highlights the inherant problems with using Windows in general. Even if people don't take this info as a reason to switch from Win to Lin, it just might make them think of putting some pressure on MS to make a better effort at security, or change the direction MS is taking. I plan on expanding the offensive to include the objects you mention, such as Palladium, and the idea of even further integrating, and therefore exposing to vulnerabilities, Windows OS components. MS is going in the wrong direction. I hope I can do my part, however small, to make people see this, if there's any recommendations you or anyone else can contribute, I'm certainly open to that. Thanks! -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ If you can survive death, you can probably survive anything. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Am Freitag, 10. Oktober 2003 16:28 schrieb HaywireMac: > Why be dishonest and hide the fact that we are *against* MS and their > shenanigans, while at the same time offering an alternative? It is > indeed hypocrisy to accept the ill-conceived and hair-raisingly > insecure MS garbage that's out there, all the while subverting them > by promoting our alternative. No one is going to seek out that > alternative unless they are given concrete and inescapable reasons > for doing so. Absolutly agree. I would love to configure a reply mail to every OE user that sends me a mail. I just get some MB Swen each day and thanks to that worm i have a filter on 100kbyte on my mails to block it. I offer people my help to install and configure Mozilla even on win. Its not hate for the hate, but hate because of the results of buggy ugly ill software. I like the idea of redirecting IE People. Would be cool to collect solutions for this purpose and publish a small article on slashdot ;) Steffen Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 02:23 pm, HaywireMac wrote: > > That depends on your pages. If you use a CGI method, each page that > > can be reached via URL must be CGI based. If you use a PHP method, > > the same holds true. If you mix html, dhtml, CGI, etc. it is not a > > simple cut and paste function. > > Well there, the site linked above seems to differ with you. The claim is > that it is impossible to bypass (unless you spoof the browser ID or go > through a proxy, etc.) > > Quote: > > " It has the added advantage that it doesn't require CGI execution or > redirection, and can't be circumvented by knowing the URL for the "real" > page. It's pretty simple, actually. Place this code at or near the top > of your code, before any output has occurred." No, actually, I suspect that they are confirming what I said. They assume that all of your pages are PHP and that you include the detection mechanism on all pages. If you were running something like post-nuke or nuke, or another PHP type of content management system, you could simply add the code to a template and it would automatically be placed on every page that was pulled from that template. Since all pages are created from the same template and generated dynamically, the code would be on all pages. If you had both HTML as well as PHP pages and I had the URL to one of the HTML pages, I could bypass the code, correct? > All of my pages are .php, so this is the method I'll try. Anyhow, we'll > see how it goes, I have Wine installed and IE so I can test it. > > > The fact is that if I can load a page without loading the specific > > redirect code that you created, I can bypass the detection. Also, if > > I use a proxy server that doesn't pass a browser id header, I can > > bypass the redirect. If you are trying to lock out a specific > > browser, it is easier to bypass than if you only accepted a particular > > one. Without a browser header, the default behavior is probably to > > display the normal page. With most detection mechanisms, the default > > is to not display unless the browser identifies itself as a certain > > type. Even that can be spoofed, although not trivially with IE. > > I'm not lookin' fer a 100% blockade, I'll be happy if even 1 or 2 people > get the message, esp. considering the pathetic level of traffic my site > generates. > > Even if just a few people did this kind of thing, it could catch on and > generate quite a stir, IMHO. Not so much, as I say, to make it > *impossible*, but very difficult to ignore, knowwhatimsayin'? Well, I probably disagree with what you are doing having the result you intend. There is no point in attempting to get anyone to abandon IE at this point. MS has already announced that 6.0 will be the last standalone version of IE. All future versions will only be available as an integrated part of the Windows OS. So, within a few years, we will see people moving away from IE if they want to continue to move forward with technology but still keep running their old OS, be it windows or otherwise. People who move to the new versions of Windows are likely not to have any choice since MS plans to close down the OS to outside development as soon as the Palladium stuff gets going. I suspect that third-party applications will only be approved if they do not directly compete with internal MS applications and browsers do. Given that, it is inevitable that Opera, Mozilla and others will be the de-facto standards for browsers and IE will only maintain what marketshare they get from the OS itself. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 11:39, HaywireMac wrote: so I thought about both sides while I was walking to work this morning, and decided to do this in my standard_html_footer in Zope: 0"> http://www.mozilla.org/";>USE MOZILLA It comes up right next to the Apache button if MSIE is used to visit any of my web pages. This looks to me like the best balance of advocacy without limiting choice. -- Jack Coates Monkeynoodle: A Scientific Venture... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Bryan Phinney wrote: On Friday 10 October 2003 09:36 am, HaywireMac wrote: On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:34:38 -0400 Bryan Phinney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on the'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from accessing websites. Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use an alternate browser such as Mozilla. You can test for an explicit browser string but the code must be added to every virtual server run from Apache. You can't just add it to a configuration setting, it has to be in the page or application code. I haven't even got Virtual Servers to work yet, even after following the multitude of examples on this and the Newb list, I'll be happy if I can just get some momentum going on this. So what you are saying is the the Apache config is useless? On their docs page they seem to say otherwise... I do not know of any method of detecting the browser and altering the default page displayed based on that browser that does not entail creating code on the default display page and possibly subsequent pages of the site. I also do not know of any method of doing this that I would be unable to bypass in some manner. Figuring out what happens when you bypass the detection code is part of QA and I have yet to see any site that is capable of locking me out based on my browser. I have been working in software QA for about 8 years, the last 4-5 has been spent almost entirely on web-based applications. I would consider myself somewhat knowledgable in that area. YMMV. Also, if someone has a page under the actual index bookmarked, they can still bypass the detection string. I use that all the time to bypass detection and enforcement of IE only. I don't have many pages to edit, so adding it to each and every page would be a simple matter of copy and paste. That depends on your pages. If you use a CGI method, each page that can be reached via URL must be CGI based. If you use a PHP method, the same holds true. If you mix html, dhtml, CGI, etc. it is not a simple cut and paste function. The fact is that if I can load a page without loading the specific redirect code that you created, I can bypass the detection. Also, if I use a proxy server that doesn't pass a browser id header, I can bypass the redirect. If you are trying to lock out a specific browser, it is easier to bypass than if you only accepted a particular one. Without a browser header, the default behavior is probably to display the normal page. With most detection mechanisms, the default is to not display unless the browser identifies itself as a certain type. Even that can be spoofed, although not trivially with IE. LOL, 14+ years dealing with network issues, and, quess what, I still learn something new each day. Check out the web page. Some of the methodologies are pretty damn effective. Computer science, like any other science, is not exact, and not without it exceptions. http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml drjung -- J. Craig Woods UNIX Network/System Engineer http://www.trismegistus.net/resume.htm Let him that would move the world, first move himself. --Socrates Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:50:00 -0500 "J.C. Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Happy blocking, and, BTW, I like your thinking on this one. Wt! It works! Thank you thank you thank you! Of course, as Brian P. said, anyone with half a brain can prolly bypass it, but it's easy to do, and if more people do it, it could be a great form of protest, IMVHO... -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Life can be so tragic -- you're here today and here tomorrow. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:55:54 -0400 Bryan Phinney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > I do not know of any method of detecting the browser and altering the > default page displayed based on that browser that does not entail > creating code on the default display page and possibly subsequent > pages of the site. I also do not know of any method of doing this > that I would be unable to bypass in some manner. Figuring out what > happens when you bypass the detection code is part of QA and I have > yet to see any site that is capable of locking me out based on my > browser. I have been working in software QA for about 8 years, the > last 4-5 has been spent almost entirely on web-based applications. I > would consider myself somewhat knowledgable in that area. YMMV. Monsieur Woods already linked me to a solution that confirms what you say, it appears it must be done in the page code: http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml > > > Also, if someone has a page under the actual index bookmarked, > > > they can still bypass the detection string. I use that all the > > > time to bypass detection and enforcement of IE only. > > > > I don't have many pages to edit, so adding it to each and every page > > would be a simple matter of copy and paste. > > That depends on your pages. If you use a CGI method, each page that > can be reached via URL must be CGI based. If you use a PHP method, > the same holds true. If you mix html, dhtml, CGI, etc. it is not a > simple cut and paste function. Well there, the site linked above seems to differ with you. The claim is that it is impossible to bypass (unless you spoof the browser ID or go through a proxy, etc.) Quote: " It has the added advantage that it doesn't require CGI execution or redirection, and can't be circumvented by knowing the URL for the "real" page. It's pretty simple, actually. Place this code at or near the top of your code, before any output has occurred." All of my pages are .php, so this is the method I'll try. Anyhow, we'll see how it goes, I have Wine installed and IE so I can test it. > The fact is that if I can load a page without loading the specific > redirect code that you created, I can bypass the detection. Also, if > I use a proxy server that doesn't pass a browser id header, I can > bypass the redirect. If you are trying to lock out a specific > browser, it is easier to bypass than if you only accepted a particular > one. Without a browser header, the default behavior is probably to > display the normal page. With most detection mechanisms, the default > is to not display unless the browser identifies itself as a certain > type. Even that can be spoofed, although not trivially with IE. I'm not lookin' fer a 100% blockade, I'll be happy if even 1 or 2 people get the message, esp. considering the pathetic level of traffic my site generates. Even if just a few people did this kind of thing, it could catch on and generate quite a stir, IMHO. Not so much, as I say, to make it *impossible*, but very difficult to ignore, knowwhatimsayin'? -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ In spite of everything, I still believe that people are good at heart. -- Ann Frank Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 09:36 am, HaywireMac wrote: > On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:34:38 -0400 > > Bryan Phinney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on > > > the'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" > > > IE from accessing websites. > > > > > > Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use > > > an alternate browser such as Mozilla. > > > > You can test for an explicit browser string but the code must be added > > to every virtual server run from Apache. You can't just add it to a > > configuration setting, it has to be in the page or application code. > > I haven't even got Virtual Servers to work yet, even after following the > multitude of examples on this and the Newb list, I'll be happy if I can > just get some momentum going on this. > > So what you are saying is the the Apache config is useless? On their > docs page they seem to say otherwise... I do not know of any method of detecting the browser and altering the default page displayed based on that browser that does not entail creating code on the default display page and possibly subsequent pages of the site. I also do not know of any method of doing this that I would be unable to bypass in some manner. Figuring out what happens when you bypass the detection code is part of QA and I have yet to see any site that is capable of locking me out based on my browser. I have been working in software QA for about 8 years, the last 4-5 has been spent almost entirely on web-based applications. I would consider myself somewhat knowledgable in that area. YMMV. > > Also, if someone has a page under the actual index bookmarked, they > > can still bypass the detection string. I use that all the time to > > bypass detection and enforcement of IE only. > > I don't have many pages to edit, so adding it to each and every page > would be a simple matter of copy and paste. That depends on your pages. If you use a CGI method, each page that can be reached via URL must be CGI based. If you use a PHP method, the same holds true. If you mix html, dhtml, CGI, etc. it is not a simple cut and paste function. The fact is that if I can load a page without loading the specific redirect code that you created, I can bypass the detection. Also, if I use a proxy server that doesn't pass a browser id header, I can bypass the redirect. If you are trying to lock out a specific browser, it is easier to bypass than if you only accepted a particular one. Without a browser header, the default behavior is probably to display the normal page. With most detection mechanisms, the default is to not display unless the browser identifies itself as a certain type. Even that can be spoofed, although not trivially with IE. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
--- Original Message --- From: "H.J.Bathoorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website >On Friday 10 October 2003 18:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> this would allow even the >> newbie-est to find and install whatever flavor tickles their >> tastebuds with a minimum of effort or understnding on their part. > >Right up to the point where they uninstall explorer, thinking they won't be >needing it anymore. That way it's dead certain they'll never touch >free-software again for a long time to come! > >Educating people is no easy chore, 'specially if they don't want to be. > >Good luck, >harM > > no matter how idiot-proof you make it, they'll always come up with a more persistent idiot. besides, i don't think you actually can uninstall ie now that it's such an "integral part": of the ms experience. but if you can, it's still a dedicated decision requiring more than a single click to actually delete it completely. but with that possibility in mind, perhaps a disclaimer that ie should NOT be uninstalled because of those lesser sites who still insist on requiring it. every action has consequences, even no action at all. the ultimate decision is "which is the lesser evil?" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 18:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > this would allow even the > newbie-est to find and install whatever flavor tickles their > tastebuds with a minimum of effort or understnding on their part. Right up to the point where they uninstall explorer, thinking they won't be needing it anymore. That way it's dead certain they'll never touch free-software again for a long time to come! Educating people is no easy chore, 'specially if they don't want to be. Good luck, harM > > but i do love the reversal of fortunes this initiates *g* -- Mandrake HowTo's & more: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
>I think that is the direction, at least partially, I'm leaning. All >joking aside about Stephen's infamous 404 page, I certainly don't wish >to paint all *nix users as ill-tempered ideologues, but at the same time >what is the point of a quick redirect that people will simply ignore >anyway? > >You've got to make it impossible to ignore, or else it's pointless. > >Non-violent protest and civil-disobedience have a long and effective >tradition of effecting change, and I see this as somewhat akin to a >"strike", the most effective means of such. Ghandi used it, MLK used it, >it is certainly nothing new. If the goons that are polluting the >internet won't listen to reason... > >I'm going to stay away from insulting anyone, though it's tempting for >me as you can well imagine ;-) perhaps an additional consideration... on the redirect, put a list of links to the websites for as many alternative browsers as you would like to suggest, perhaps even to their download pages (though that may need to be semi-constantly monitored for changes more than the homepages would). this would allow even the newbie-est to find and install whatever flavor tickles their tastebuds with a minimum of effort or understnding on their part. but i do love the reversal of fortunes this initiates *g* Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:15:56 -0500 "J.C. Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Your missing the point, Miark. This is not what HMac is doing (and do > > jump in if I have you wrong, HMac). No, you've got it just right, I will heed the advice to make this as polite and well-mannered as possible...like I said before, I would like to have links to information and resources that would be of use to IE users, like Mozilla or it's like, which don't spread and/or accept malicious code with such abandon. Or links like Billy Gates e-mail address, maybe ;-) > He is not concerned with hostile attitudes against those that use IE: > he is against the Corporation that has shown very little regard for > your security, and they are costing you money right now! Don't take my > word for it, just fire up some sniffer of your own choosing, i.e. > ethereal, and have a look at the cluster-fuck out there. I pay good > money for my dsl, and, because of a plethora of bogus, virus-oriented > traffic due to M$, i.e. rpc exploits (port 135), netbios exploits > (port 138 and port 139), SMB exploits (port 445), IIS exploits (all > http and https ports), and all the other email virus that bottlenecks > the internet (I think the list could go on ad infinitum), I pay by not > having but maybe, at best, 80 percent of my pipe. > > What it seems like to me, is that HaywireMac is on an educational > crusade, and I, for one, laud him on this endeavor. The re-direct page > can be done in a really well thought out fashion. Wording can be > included that will help others get the hell off of anything to do with > M$. That kind of effort will certainly have Billy re-tooling his > thinking. It is time for us all to make a stand Damn straight! Thanks! -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Push where it gives and scratch where it itches. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:57:37 -0400 "Ronald J. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Don't get me wrong, Haywiremac - I understand where you are coming > from but maybe a better solution would be to redirect an IE identified > browser to a page that explains the point(s) that you are trying to > get across then, returns to the your site (either via a return button > or a timing limit to ensure that they do read it). > > Wouldn't that be a better alternative? Just a random-universe thought. I think that is the direction, at least partially, I'm leaning. All joking aside about Stephen's infamous 404 page, I certainly don't wish to paint all *nix users as ill-tempered ideologues, but at the same time what is the point of a quick redirect that people will simply ignore anyway? You've got to make it impossible to ignore, or else it's pointless. Non-violent protest and civil-disobedience have a long and effective tradition of effecting change, and I see this as somewhat akin to a "strike", the most effective means of such. Ghandi used it, MLK used it, it is certainly nothing new. If the goons that are polluting the internet won't listen to reason... I'm going to stay away from insulting anyone, though it's tempting for me as you can well imagine ;-) -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful than the sun." "Why?", he was asked. "Because at night we need the light more." Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Miark wrote: This may be just me, but "locking out" anybody based on their browser is not a tactic that is compatible or consistent with the Open Source way. In fact I think it's below us. We should be taking the high road and setting an example cuz 1) that's the quality of people we want to be. 2) We don't want Linux users developing a reputation of warring against M$. We about being pro-Linux, not anti-M$. 3) It punishes computer users who are too inexperienced to know how to change their browser. And 4) which is perhaps the most important, our way is of freedom--including the freedom to use the software we want. It would be the height of hypocrisy for legions of Linux webmasters to laud freedom while compelling visitors to use or not use software of their choice. It just ain't us. Miark Your missing the point, Miark. This is not what HMac is doing (and do jump in if I have you wrong, HMac). He is not concerned with hostile attitudes against those that use IE: he is against the Corporation that has shown very little regard for your security, and they are costing you money right now! Don't take my word for it, just fire up some sniffer of your own choosing, i.e. ethereal, and have a look at the cluster-fuck out there. I pay good money for my dsl, and, because of a plethora of bogus, virus-oriented traffic due to M$, i.e. rpc exploits (port 135), netbios exploits (port 138 and port 139), SMB exploits (port 445), IIS exploits (all http and https ports), and all the other email virus that bottlenecks the internet (I think the list could go on ad infinitum), I pay by not having but maybe, at best, 80 percent of my pipe. What it seems like to me, is that HaywireMac is on an educational crusade, and I, for one, laud him on this endeavor. The re-direct page can be done in a really well thought out fashion. Wording can be included that will help others get the hell off of anything to do with M$. That kind of effort will certainly have Billy re-tooling his thinking. It is time for us all to make a stand. Go for it, WildMan drjung -- J. Craig Woods UNIX Network/System Engineer http://www.trismegistus.net/resume.htm Let him that would move the world, first move himself. --Socrates Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 10:14 am, Miark wrote: > This may be just me, but "locking out" anybody based on their browser is > not a tactic that is compatible or consistent with the Open Source way. > > In fact I think it's below us. We should be taking the high road and > setting an example cuz 1) that's the quality of people we want to be. 2) > We don't want Linux users developing a reputation of warring against M$. > We about being pro-Linux, not anti-M$. 3) It punishes computer users who > are too inexperienced to know how to change their browser. And 4) which > is perhaps the most important, our way is of freedom--including the > freedom to use the software we want. It would be the height of hypocrisy > for legions of Linux webmasters to laud freedom while compelling > visitors to use or not use software of their choice. It just ain't us. > > Miark I would tend to agree with Miark - they are bad enough about locking us out if we are not using IE, do we have to resort to these tactics as well? Don't get me wrong, Haywiremac - I understand where you are coming from but maybe a better solution would be to redirect an IE identified browser to a page that explains the point(s) that you are trying to get across then, returns to the your site (either via a return button or a timing limit to ensure that they do read it). Wouldn't that be a better alternative? Just a random-universe thought. :-) -- /\ Dark>Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:14:11 -0400 Miark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > 3) It punishes computer users who > are too inexperienced to know how to change their browser. This is exactly what I intend to do. The page which is served to IE users will explain *why* (info on MS and it's record on security issues), and *how* (links to alternative browsers and info on how they can contact MS to demand better protection). You are correct about one thing, this is about choice. For me, this means *choosing* not to deal with MS wherever possible, until they get their act together. Unfortunately, MS will not listen until users of their software start complaining that not only are they subject to egregious violations of their privacy and security, but that out of that, the 'net is becoming a *very* unfriendly place for MS software. Hell, my site don't get enough hits to even make a *blip* on MS's radar, but as far as I'm concerned, enough is enough. MS needs to be told in no-uncertain-terms that they are not welcome on the 'net in their current state. What is so different about this type of action than putting filters on HTML mail, which is a standard practice for many lists and individual users? What is so different about this than banning certain IP's that run unsecured open-relays, often without their knowledge? What is so different about this than ISP's giving individual users the boot when they won't accept that the software they are running is causing problems? Why be dishonest and hide the fact that we are *against* MS and their shenanigans, while at the same time offering an alternative? It is indeed hypocrisy to accept the ill-conceived and hair-raisingly insecure MS garbage that's out there, all the while subverting them by promoting our alternative. No one is going to seek out that alternative unless they are given concrete and inescapable reasons for doing so. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall. -- Sir Walter Raleigh Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Hello HaywireMac, Friday, October 10, 2003, 5:46:18 AM, you wrote: H> Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on H> the 'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock H> out" IE from accessing websites. H> Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use an H> alternate browser such as Mozilla. This might not go well with the people who DO use an alternate browser, but have it set to ID as IE. This gets MANY pages to work that would not work otherwise because of the kind of message you want to put up. MANY people do this, and it is, in part, how M$ seems to get such huge market share numbers. I understand that there is code that does more extensive testing to see if it really is IE, independent of what the ID says. M$ apparently helped in the development. You might try to get this and use it instead, thus allowing alternate browsers who ID as IE to still work. Us alternate browser users would sure appreciate that. :-) -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
This may be just me, but "locking out" anybody based on their browser is not a tactic that is compatible or consistent with the Open Source way. In fact I think it's below us. We should be taking the high road and setting an example cuz 1) that's the quality of people we want to be. 2) We don't want Linux users developing a reputation of warring against M$. We about being pro-Linux, not anti-M$. 3) It punishes computer users who are too inexperienced to know how to change their browser. And 4) which is perhaps the most important, our way is of freedom--including the freedom to use the software we want. It would be the height of hypocrisy for legions of Linux webmasters to laud freedom while compelling visitors to use or not use software of their choice. It just ain't us. Miark On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:46:18 -0400, HaywireMac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be met with > a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome?...I would like to > start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from accessing websites. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:50:00 -0500 "J.C. Woods" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Hey HeywireMac, > > Google is your friend, a very *good* friend at that. Just look at what ya, I was so engrossed in the Apache docs, I forgot my own similar observations on that point. > google gave me with one run of "blocking IE on Apache webserver": > > http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml > > Happy blocking, and, BTW, I like your thinking on this one. Thanks! I'm thinking of using Stephen's 404 page as the redirect... -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Don't take life seriously, you'll never get out alive. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
> I don't have many pages to edit, so adding it to each and every page > would be a simple matter of copy and paste. > Just a suggestion: If you're editing multiple pages, even just a dozen, you might consider making the pages PHP based. You can enable .html as a PHP script in apache then just insert "include" directives in your HTML code to point to more HTML or PHP script. -- The Digital Hermit Unix and Linux Solutions http://www.digitalhermit.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
Greg Meyer wrote: On Friday 10 October 2003 08:46 am, HaywireMac wrote: How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be met with a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome? Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on the 'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from accessing websites. Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use an alternate browser such as Mozilla. Do what the sites that allow only IE do. Test the browser string and present a warning page to users of IE and the real page to everybody else. Hey HeywireMac, Google is your friend, a very *good* friend at that. Just look at what google gave me with one run of "blocking IE on Apache webserver": http://www.devin.com/ieblock_howto.shtml Happy blocking, and, BTW, I like your thinking on this one. drjung -- J. Craig Woods UNIX Network/System Engineer http://www.trismegistus.net/resume.htm Let him that would move the world, first move himself. --Socrates Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:34:38 -0400 Bryan Phinney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on > > the'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" > > IE from accessing websites. > > > > Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use > > an alternate browser such as Mozilla. > > You can test for an explicit browser string but the code must be added > to every virtual server run from Apache. You can't just add it to a > configuration setting, it has to be in the page or application code. I haven't even got Virtual Servers to work yet, even after following the multitude of examples on this and the Newb list, I'll be happy if I can just get some momentum going on this. So what you are saying is the the Apache config is useless? On their docs page they seem to say otherwise... > Also, if someone has a page under the actual index bookmarked, they > can still bypass the detection string. I use that all the time to > bypass detection and enforcement of IE only. I don't have many pages to edit, so adding it to each and every page would be a simple matter of copy and paste. Good to know tho, thanks! -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ If little green men land in your back yard, hide any little green women you've got in the house. -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac" Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:19:28 -0400 Greg Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > Do what the sites that allow only IE do. Test the browser string and > present a warning page to users of IE and the real page to everybody > else. Right, I understand the basic concept, but I cannot see in my httpd2.conf where or how this is done. I found this example on the Apache site: The BrowserMatch is a special cases of the SetEnvIf directive that sets environment variables conditional on the User-Agent HTTP request header. Some additional examples: BrowserMatch ^Mozilla forms jpeg=yes browser=netscape BrowserMatch "^Mozilla/[2-3]" tables agif frames javascript BrowserMatch MSIE !javascript The last one looks promising, I suppose I could put: BrowserMatch MSIE "go somewhere else", but I can't find how to write that in terms Apache will understand... Thanks! -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Waste not fresh tears over old griefs. -- Euripides Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 08:46 am, HaywireMac wrote: > How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be met with > a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome? > > Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on the > 'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from > accessing websites. > > Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use an > alternate browser such as Mozilla. You can test for an explicit browser string but the code must be added to every virtual server run from Apache. You can't just add it to a configuration setting, it has to be in the page or application code. Also, if someone has a page under the actual index bookmarked, they can still bypass the detection string. I use that all the time to bypass detection and enforcement of IE only. -- Bryan Phinney Software Test Engineer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] How to Block IE from a Website
On Friday 10 October 2003 08:46 am, HaywireMac wrote: > > How would one configure Apache so that anyone using IE would be met with > a "nice friendly message" that they are not welcome? > > Considering the effects of compromised home computers running XP on the > 'net, I would like to start a campaign to essentially "lock out" IE from > accessing websites. > > Of course, one would still be able to use Windows, but have to use an > alternate browser such as Mozilla. > Do what the sites that allow only IE do. Test the browser string and present a warning page to users of IE and the real page to everybody else. -- /g "Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read" -Groucho Marx Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
