Re: [FairfieldLife] Origin of bija mantras
I wish I could say I understood enough about Tantric doctrines to fully appreciate what you have said, but truthfully I'm not that conversant with it yet. I will say one thing about Feurerstein. By his own account, he is a long-term practitioner of yoga and in recent years he has turned to Tantric Buddhist practices. I think he would describe himself as someone who was not just a dry scholar, but an avid and long-term practitioner. In any event, I'm still digging into M's thinking and theological perspective. My next read is _Consciousness in Advaita Vedanta_ by William Indich. Hopefully it can cast some light on further thinking about consciousness in M's belief system. Cheers Bill From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Origin of bija mantras I read Feurstein's book but I find him more a spectator and not a practitioner. FYI, I've study with a Tantric Samrat which is a level above Tantric Acharya and I've achieved Sidh Tantric (mastery of tantric siddhis). I don't know if I'll ever get much farther than that as it's more a young person's thing. My teacher started when he was 16. You'll find a lot of different opinions about the beej (Indians pronounce it this way) mantras in the subtleties of their use. They are also used as sampat for longer mantras. I also think that MMY actually used the beej mantras because they had a quick effect and could be taught without shaktipat (other than that produced by performing the puja). The advanced technique is of course a longer mantra (and recommended to learn after 1 1/2 years). Other paths will just teach a longer mantra along with giving shaktipat. There is a controversy though about giving the public agni mantras and most feel only Shiva and Shanti mantras should be given for basic techniques. The sad thing is that much of this kind of information though given out by teachers of other traditions wasn't given to at least the TM teachers. Hence funny guesses about beej mantras here. ;-) On 09/07/2011 06:04 PM, William Parkinson wrote: Not too muchm sadly. I am still learning everything I can about MMY and TM. The only other interesting thing I found out that most do not know is that according to Donovan, the singer who was there with the Beatles in India (as I know you know already), MMY divided up longer mantras to reduce it is basic easy bija mantras for Western people, who were not inclined to the religion of Hinduism. This makes sense, since every time I see TM mantras they are indeed part of larger whole mantras, e.g., Om klim hrim...Sawastri...etc. (as claimed in the book, Here Comes the Sun: The Spiritual Musical Journey of George Harrison, pg. 127.) And also, Frawley claims that the long I in shakti mantras designates shakti, but the short I vowel sound is supposed to designate Siva or static consciouness. So that makes me wonder why we all use the short I vowel sound in MMY versions of the bija mantras (i.e., hrim, instead of the normative hreem pronunciation, to cite but one example). Might it be because MMY thought the so-called shakti mantras were too powerful for Western minds? In any event, Feurstein is a very respected scholar and I trust his research and acumen. From: Bhairitunoozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Origin of bija mantras On 09/07/2011 05:09 PM, William wrote: For what it is worth, the most trusted yoga scholar I know is Dr. Georg Feurstein and according to him bija mantras are first found in the brahmanas, where they are associated with specific deities (Georg Feurstein, Tantra: Path of Ecstasy, 16.) What else have you studied on tantra?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras
Emptybill, I find what you say fascinating. I was taught my mantra with the short vowel pronunciation. My own teacher said that he was taught the mantras by an Indian, so perhaps there was some degree of misunderstanding about the nature of how it should be said. Having said that, the pronunciation I use delivers all the same results, as I already firmly believed it would, since I do not believe in the numinous qualities of mantras. In my case, I am a thoroughgoing secularist and I don't believe in any supernatural qualities; either to the mantras or 'pure consciousness' being equitable, or in some sense a verification of, Brahmen. In my estimation, TM works because of the technique itself. I have changed my mantra (i.e., made one up) on purpose several times and it seems to work every bit as good as the one I was given in my training. M himself has said many times it is purely mechanical and the technique is what brings you to pure consciousness. Having said that, I do know that M also believed that the mantras were special and I fel certain that he believed they were numinous. Still, he placed great emphasis that the technique itself was what made the meditation work so effectively. Of course I am still researching all of this as diligently as I can and I might be completely wrong as to what M thought. But I do know using made-up mantras has worked every bit as well as the one I was given. If nothing else, I think that is suggestive, and it comports well with my own thinking that what makes TM so special is the technique. Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 7:58 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras When I received the mantras from MMY in 1972 at the Fiuggi course, he gave them all with long vowels (Hreem rather than Hrim or Hrem). Since I had already read some of Sir John Woodroofe's books, I listened intensely to make sure I heard them correctly. One of the problems with not knowing how to pronounce basic Sanskrit is that ordinary Westerners often get it wrong, including the spelling. Some of the lists of supposed TM mantras on the net are so absurd that they become a real hoot. ……. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Not too muchm sadly. I am still learning everything I can about MMY and TM. The only other interesting thing I found out that most do not know is that according to Donovan, the singer who was there with the Beatles in India (as I know you know already), MMY divided up longer mantras to reduce it is basic easy bija mantras for Western people, who were not inclined to the religion of Hinduism. This makes sense, since every time I see TM mantras they are indeed part of larger whole mantras, e.g., Om klim hrim...Sawastri...etc. (as claimed in the book, Here Comes the Sun: The Spiritual Musical Journey of George Harrison, pg. 127.) And also, Frawley claims that the long I in shakti mantras designates shakti, but the short I vowel sound is supposed to designate Siva or static consciouness. So that makes me wonder why we all use the short I vowel sound in MMY versions of the bija mantras (i.e., hrim, instead of the normative hreem pronunciation, to cite but one example). Might it be because MMY thought the so-called shakti mantras were too powerful for Western minds? In any event, Feurstein is a very respected scholar and I trust his research and acumen. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Origin of bija mantras  On 09/07/2011 05:09 PM, William wrote: For what it is worth, the most trusted yoga scholar I know is Dr. Georg Feurstein and according to him bija mantras are first found in the brahmanas, where they are associated with specific deities (Georg Feurstein, Tantra: Path of Ecstasy, 16.) What else have you studied on tantra?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras
I would love to share it with everyone here. I saw that price too, so I ordered it via ILL. Hopefully, I will get it soon. Once read, I will report what the author's research suggests is the case on consciousness in Advaita Vedanta. Cheers Bill From: authfriend jst...@panix.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:58 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: I wish I could say I understood enough about Tantric doctrines to fully appreciate what you have said, but truthfully I'm not that conversant with it yet. I will say one thing about Feurerstein. By his own account, he is a long-term practitioner of yoga and in recent years he has turned to Tantric Buddhist practices. I think he would describe himself as someone who was not just a dry scholar, but an avid and long-term practitioner. In any event, I'm still digging into M's thinking and theological perspective. My next read is _Consciousness in Advaita Vedanta_ by William Indich.  Hopefully it can cast some light on further thinking about consciousness in M's belief system. If it does, would you share some of it with us? At $50, the book isn't within my budget, I'm afraid!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras
Dear Bhairitu, one religious tradition at a time! I am still learning about M and Advaitic thought. But one day I will take the time to explore it. Cheers Bill From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras Nonsense. I said hang out not become a disciple. I've talked with many an Indian (I had Indian employees where I worked) about these things. It was insightful to hear how a typical Indian grew up in the Brahmin catechism (or sometimes didn't). I also attended many a vedic astrology conference where many of us hung out with Indian astrologers, some who were tantrics. And of course I've also been to India. Reading books is more likely to lead to confusion unless you hold them at arm's length in opinion. Another series I meant to mention would be Dr. Robert Svoboda's trilogy on tantra. I use to like to pin him and Hart DeFouw down on their tantric learning and especially about mantra shastra. Both were initiates and not spectators. The problem for TMers has been this purity of the teaching thing which could just as well be keep TM in it's package. At those astrology conferences I knew folks who were still strongly involved in the TMO but stil interested in learning from people from other paths. They could keep things sorted in their minds. And I doubt that they were ever banned from the Domes. On 09/08/2011 12:35 PM, emptybill wrote: A suggestion that could be lead to much confusion. No self-respecting Indian has less than 20-30 mantras on hand at any time. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: I don't know where you live but I would suggest if you have an Indian community there to become familiar with local yogis and tantrics. Many will advertise in the local Indian publications as astrologers. You'll have to sniff out the charlatans but there are some very knowledge people out there. And even the an Indian immigrant will laugh at the naiveté of the typical American white guy. You don't have to become a disciple but you'll may learn more than you will find in any book just hanging out with them. Some Indian authored books worth reading: Practicals of Mantras and Tantra by L.R. Chawdhri Not a well written book and there are miss transliterations of the Devanagari mantras (hence, why you might want to learn the script first). Chawdhri was also a Tantric Samrat and reveals some information on the subject. Just note, many of these kinds of books will list commonly known mantras and not ones they actually use. Yantra-Mantra Tantra and Occult Sciences by Dr. Bhojraj Dwivedi This a more recently published but and better written book with much information on the subject. Mind -- It's Mysteries and Control by Swami Sivananda which was first published before Maharishi even dreamed of becoming a monk: http://www.sivananda.com/MindMysteriesControl.htm I have long discarded TM as being yoga lite.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras
That is a good price. I will wait until I read it though to see if I want purchase it. Tell us what you think about it, for I think you will get your copy long before I get mine on loan. Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 12:45 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras I ordered it thru Amazon (1995 edition) for $18.95 ($22.94 w/shipping). --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: I wish I could say I understood enough about Tantric doctrines to fully appreciate what you have said, but truthfully I'm not that conversant with it yet. I will say one thing about Feurerstein. By his own account, he is a long-term practitioner of yoga and in recent years he has turned to Tantric Buddhist practices. I think he would describe himself as someone who was not just a dry scholar, but an avid and long-term practitioner. In any event, I'm still digging into M's thinking and theological perspective. My next read is _Consciousness in Advaita Vedanta_ by William Indich.  Hopefully it can cast some light on further thinking about consciousness in M's belief system. If it does, would you share some of it with us? At $50, the book isn't within my budget, I'm afraid!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras
For those who are interested, Abebooks.com has two copies of _Consciousness in Advaita Vedanta_ at the total cost, including shipping, of $15. And that is really an excellent buy, although I will wait to read it first before I commit to buying it. Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:18 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Origin of bija mantras This is not in any way a definitive study. It is a large book giving a general view of the advaita perspective. It could be good, perhaps, for people not familiar with the source material or for those who need quick reminders about certain topics. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, richardwillytexwilliams willytex@... wrote: William Parkinson: My next read is _Consciousness in Advaita Vedanta... In the book Back to the Truth: 5000 years of Advaita, Dennis Waite's magnum opus, the definitive study of Advaita Vedanta (from A to V) has been penned... - Floyd Henderson 'Back to the Truth' 5000 years of Advaita By Dennis Waite O Books, 2007 Amazon Review: http://tinyurl.com/3qwup6h Interview with non-duality magazine: http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.denniswaite.interv\ iew.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Origin of bija mantras
Not too muchm sadly. I am still learning everything I can about MMY and TM. The only other interesting thing I found out that most do not know is that according to Donovan, the singer who was there with the Beatles in India (as I know you know already), MMY divided up longer mantras to reduce it is basic easy bija mantras for Western people, who were not inclined to the religion of Hinduism. This makes sense, since every time I see TM mantras they are indeed part of larger whole mantras, e.g., Om klim hrim...Sawastri...etc. (as claimed in the book, Here Comes the Sun: The Spiritual Musical Journey of George Harrison, pg. 127.) And also, Frawley claims that the long I in shakti mantras designates shakti, but the short I vowel sound is supposed to designate Siva or static consciouness. So that makes me wonder why we all use the short I vowel sound in MMY versions of the bija mantras (i.e., hrim, instead of the normative hreem pronunciation, to cite but one example). Might it be because MMY thought the so-called shakti mantras were too powerful for Western minds? In any event, Feurstein is a very respected scholar and I trust his research and acumen. From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Origin of bija mantras On 09/07/2011 05:09 PM, William wrote: For what it is worth, the most trusted yoga scholar I know is Dr. Georg Feurstein and according to him bija mantras are first found in the brahmanas, where they are associated with specific deities (Georg Feurstein, Tantra: Path of Ecstasy, 16.) What else have you studied on tantra?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: A word from St. Paul
Actually scholars in this area know all of these names. However, in practical terms, the only name we really interact with from time to time is Origen. So, for example, if one wanted to look at the nascent Alexandrian Christianity one would look at these names: Apollo, the authorr of Hebrews (which many speculate was Apollo), Philo (who was Jewish), Clement, and to a lesser degree Tertullian, and Origen, to name but a few. Depending on the question in hand they might also have to interact with the Gnostic finds at Nag Hammadi or at Oxyrhyncus. We must do so to trace certain traditions which are recorded in these works. Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:15 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: A word from St. Paul To bad for you. You missed Plotinus and the other Platonists that followed him until Justinian closed the academy. No wonder you don't believe in this stuff.…… --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Now I understand!! Well, my own expertise runs from 200 B.C.E. to 200 C.E.. My concentration and my doctoral program was in Early Christianity, Second Temple Judaism, and to a lesser degree Greco-Roman mystery cults (in particular, Mithras and Hekete). Once we get beyond 200 C.E., I fear I will be a precious little use. But certainly anything anyone wants to discuss I would be open to chiming in if I felt like anything worthwhile to add.  What did you have in mind? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpriced@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul  Bill,  I was using AD (Anno Domini) interchangeably with CE (common or Christian era). The period I'm hoping to start a new discussion on is 31/32 C.E. (death of Jesus) to May 22, 337 C.E. (death of Constantine).  When Robin returned some excellent serves from a number of FFL posters the focus was the 13th centuryand 1943 (I believe the 1943 reference concerned the bombing by the Allies of the Benedictine Monastery at Mount Cassino).  http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,796392,00.html From: William Parkinson ameradian2@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:36:08 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul  Bob did you mean 37C.E.? I have never heard of a 337C.E. date. Is that what you meant? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpriced@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul  1 Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV)   1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.  2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.  3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.  4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,  5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;  6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;  7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.  8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.  9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;  10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.  12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.  13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. Â
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Hi Bhairitu. What is the JyotishList all about? Cheers Bill From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras On 07/14/2011 10:43 PM, Ravi Yogi wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: You have opened a whole can of worms here. I've watched for years different tantra school argue over whether the beej mantras should have use the ng ending or the m ending. They have slightly different effects as far as resonance patterns go. And Indians given their nature will argue passionately over this, making the arguments on FFL look very wimpy (I'm sure Ravi will agree). Bhairitu - I have to plead ignorance in spite of being born a Brahmin, you and others seem to be more well versed and yeah lot of Indians for sure. However give me some Sanskrit slokas and I will chant it perfectly, comes naturally to me. I wasn't talking about the knowledge but how Indians love to argue. They really went at it on one forum over the ng and m endings. And just wander over to the JyotishList on Yahoo. There is often a brawl going on there. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. I don't read the political ones, nor a variety of other threads. The e-mail you sent, and its relevancy, I think falls upon how you want to define TM. In your e-mail you are pressing the points based only on the meditative technique and the state of consciousness that it produces. Nevertheless, when viewed through the prism of religious scholarship, I think any scholar would see the TM organization is being profoundly steeped in Hinduism. There are so many points of contact between the TM organization and normative Hindu beliefs that I don't think anyone can really question that. Personally, I have always viewed Maharishi as being a perfectly orthodox Hindu, at least within his own Advaita tradition. By the way, my old TM teacher has told me that he thought that one day there would be a bifurcation of the organization. There would be a Western branch and an Indian branch. The Western branch would emphasize exactly the points that you have brought up here and no doubt divest itself of some of the more overt mystical and Hindu elements. The Indian branch, would of course, cloak itself in the garb of Hinduism, which is entirely appropriate. Anyway, I am sorry I missed this, but I didn't read any posts in this particular thread. Was this the particular link you were pointing out in your other post to me? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill Re: The Soul is extracted and judged by weight An email I fired off recently might be of interest to you: Dear Professor Brown, I just finished reading your article, Doubt as Methodology and Object in the Phenomenology of Religion, found in M/C Journal http://www.journal.media-culture.org.au/index.php/mcjournal/article/viewArticle/\ 334 ... I'd like to present the TM theoretical take of the Vedic philosophy and ask that you reconsider calling TM a religion, per se: Rather than theories or beliefs about God, the Universe and Everything that are strictly the product of the specific culture that they are found in, TM theory asserts that these are cultural interpretations of states of consciousness that are natural to humans, regardless of culture. TM theory further asserts that TM is a technique (in the same sense that the Way that cannot be spoken is a technique) that increases the probability that practitioners will enter into the state of consciousness called turya -pure consciousness- in the Upanishads. The theory further asserts that long-term practice of TM, alternated with normal activity, leads to the situation called turyatita (quality of turya) where turya is omni-present, in some sense, in the individual. This theory is nothing new. You can find it, with minor variations, in various places. E.G. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya What IS unique to TM theory, however, are the assertions that: 1) turya is a physiological state of the brain in the Western scientific sense, that can be measured using the tools of Western science; 2) that turyatita is likewise a measurable state; 3) that turya is the state of least stress in a resting nervous system; 4) the process of TM is merely a resting state of the nervous system that repairs stress (note that obvious episodes of turya are NOT required for this resting state to be effective --one can become fully enlightened according to TM theory, without ever having a clear experience of turya during meditation, at least prior to full enlightenment); 4) turyatita is merely a state in mature adults whose nervous systems are sufficiently strong and mature due to lack of physiological stress that turya is evident, even during waking, dreaming and sleeping. this leads to the logical conclusion that turyatita is NOT some esoteric state, and that the physiological signature of turya during meditation should more likely appear, not only in long-term practitioners of TM contrasted with non-meditating or short-term meditating controls, but also in non-meditators whose success in life suggests that their nervous systems are very efficient, e.g.: world champion athletes (as compared to non-champion professionals in the same sport), professional classical musicians (as compared to amateur classical musicians) and high-functioning business managers as compared to their less successful counterparts. Research on the physiological correlates of turya found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you so much Emptybill. I wonder if you or Richard might be able to answer the following two questions. 1) Do Hindus who adhere to the Advaita tradition consider Shankara a shakta? 2) Do we know whether GuruDev and MMY thought of their particular strand of Advaita as being fully within the shakti tradition? In short, would both men consider themselves, and Shankara, as shaktas? Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:53 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras This could be a duplicate Yahoo post or maybe not. Sorry but no troth with Yahoo. Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Shakti(power) carries none of our modern connotations of a strictly mechanistic force but rather points to what Shakta-s (shakti initiates) see as the intelligence(s) that actualize the cosmos and enact its unmanifest design. You seem to recognize that Shaktivada (shakti-ism) is a doctrine (-vada) that is quite separate from Advaita. It is a doctrine asserting that there is a universal power that manifests the cosmos and that it's actualizations are various all-constituting intelligences. Since these are intelligences, rather than insentient material forces, the further insight is that they are accessible to other intelligences (like us) and that there is a methodology for doing just this. That methodology is called Tantra and includes not only formulae for contacting these intelligences but also specific etiquettes for creating, maintaining and enhancing this contact. These intelligences are deva-s/devi-s … the numinous presences that constitute and animate our body, along with our sense powers, mental operations and the functions of consciousness (chitta). All of these internal deva-s/devi-s are considered micro-processes of macro-intelligences that are massively awake and actively cognizant. They are the internal-external values that order, organize and interconnect the various subjective/objective strata of the universe. This, however, does not include Awareness (chit) which is a reality eulogized as Shiva, the auspicious One, the Presence-Awareness-Felicity that is the essence of all true identity. Sounds abstract but that's the cliff notes version for dummies like me. You may find it a mere iteration of what you already know but it never hurts of hear it again. Now I think I'll go have a beer.…… --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Richard and Emptybill: Given my rudimentary knowledge at this point I am wondering if the both of you can clarify something. I went and looked up on Wikipedia about Sri Vidya. I thought that the basic shakti doctrine was as follows: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness. In essence, they have divided up the notion of Brahman. One is pure consciousness, static in existence, while the other is pure consciousness in its changeable phenomenal form? I thought all these divine goddesses were simply a manifestation of shakti. Is that not correct? Cheers Bill Â
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you so much Richard. I am learning a great deal from you and a number of other people on the forum. I asked both you, and Emptybill, two questions over on the e-mail I sent from Emptybill's reply. If you have the time please read it and see if you can cast some light on those two questions. Thank you again! Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:27 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras William Parkinson: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness... The answer lies in the relationship of the Sri Vidya tradition and Kashmere Saivism. In the Shankaracharya tradition, Shankara was born at Kaladi, where he was a sort of child prodigy linguist, at an early age. Shankara went to study with Gaudapada, and then subsequently travelled to Kashi, and then to the Upper Kashi, where he founded the Jyotir Math and composed his commentary on 'Vedanta Sutra' and 'Bhagavad Gita'. Shankara then traveled to Kashmere where he got the Sri Yantra and took it to Karnataka where he placed it on the altar and called the place Sringeri, after the Shakti. It was at Sringeri that Shankara composed the 'Ode to the South Facing Form' and the 'Saundarylahari'. According to Theos Bernard, Kashmere Saivism teaches that conciousness alternates between two phases, rest and action. You can easily see the relation to TM practice when you consider that this is almost exactly what MMY said at Squaw Valley! The phase of transcendental rest is called 'Pralaya' in Sanskrit, which has no first beginning, therefore no primal cause. The world of matter is only another form of conciousness. The Vedanta doctrine contends that there is only one ultimate reality which never changes; therefore the manifest world is an 'appearance' only, Maya. Kashmere Saivism contends that there is only one reality, but it has *two aspects*. The manifestation, Maya, is real. This is based on the argument that the effect cannot be different from its cause. However, according to the Siva Sutra, human logic can never construct an unassailable monism; the final proof can be had only by the experience of yogic samadhi, attained through mantric meditation. Centering - An excerpt from the 'Bhairava Tantra', translated by Swami by Laksmanjoo: 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled foci of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, then as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 14. Bathe in the center of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 19. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audible as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. Read more: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/centering.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. Cheers Bill From: Robert babajii...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L There is no need to remember the mantra with a specific pronunciation...that's not it at all...allow it to unfold naturally, and if you can't remember specific prounciation, don't worry about it... A mantra is just a vehicle for transcending thought... We pick up the mantra to transcend the mantra... The objective of TM is to become familiar with the process of transcending thought, and the experience of pure consciousness when thought is transcended... That's all there is to it; it's not necessary to complicate the procedure in any way... Keep it as simple as possible... TM teaches how to be 'effortless'...so when you find that you are sliding into effort, just let go, and be effortless... R.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:27 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Unlike Ravi, Jim, and perhaps Robin, I really find the whole notion of not sleeping very troubling. Bill, I have to clarify that I mostly sleep like a log now, I did mention that I didn't sleep much for a few months during my Kundalini descension and explained that I believe now that it was an unnatural state since my body had decided it was under threat and probably never triggered the right chemicals that would let me fall asleep. In any event I want to make this my last post on the subject, given that it has developed into some side issues that I never meant to dig up. No worries - welcome to FFL, threads veer off in all different directions and several are hijacked for personal battles. Pretty soon you will be familiar with the opposing players and if need be either indulge or learn techniques to steer clear. Thx so much Barry. I took your admonishment seriously and I felt, and do still feel, it was heartfelt. And yes you are right. I have taken them at their word, even though I know this is such a subjective thing. Nevertheless, even if they only got close to so-called 'Enlightenment' it is very interesting to talk to them and see what state of mind they were in and what effect it had on their personal lives. I have to clarify that I have never used the E word, I only share my experiencesin the hope it might help or inspire someone.In fact I frequently sometimes I think there's something wrong with me, my personal situation is messed up, there's lot of strife,struggle in the world, the problems require someone mature and responsible but yet here I am I feel blissed out for no reason and act in a silly playful manner like a child. Ravi, I would still be very interested in hearing what you have to say concerning how, and in what way, these types of intense periods of illumination has helped you. I would have to first briefly describe these intense periods of illumination. Over a period of 7 years I went through a several stages which I would refer to as Kundalini ascension, each experience lasted a week or 2 where as the energy ascended to my head I noticed heightened sensitivity, intense emotions and toward the end, intense derealization depersonalization ending in a powerful surge of energy that would leave me in an absolute dread and then boom it would be gone and I would sleep exhausted. The end phase almost happened in the night time with heightened senses as if on guard against an attack. I would return to normal consciousness the next day. I have to add a quick disclaimer here that I have never tried any psychedelic drugs or never been on any prescription medication ever. However the period above was followed by intense personal problems with my marriage, wanting to feel love and be loved, being in a emotionally abusive relationship. I had a final intense one in 2009, however unlike the previous ones when I got up the next morning I was in intense bliss, as if intense blissful energy had entered in to me. This episode lasted 3 weeks and was one of the 2 episodes of Kundalini descension, the other one in April-May last year which everyone here is aware of because of my erratic behavior.The first in 2009 for 3 weeks and second for 6 weeks. Unlike the previous experiences which were very uncomfortable, this was pure bliss which increased in intensity, I felt as if energy was descending in droves, as each day progressed and at the end I went through a stage of psychosis which helped my body, mind, ego to make the transition. The state of psychosis was only a few hours during the first whereas in the second it was much intense and over a period of 5 days. After I hit the peak, the psychosis enabled me to survive, and it took me up
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: A word from St. Paul
Hi Emptybill. Adamantius, or as we refer to him Origen of Alexandria. All the Anti-Nicene fathers are sources in the study of Early Christianity. Cheers Bill AFrom: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:31 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: A word from St. Paul Which Origen do you mean? 1. Origen Adamantius (ÅŒrigénÄs) the Christian Theologian 2. Origen the Pagan, student of Ammonius Saccus and a contemporary of Plotinus? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Origen2.jpg Origen, missed. Cut him off at the pass --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: To bad for you. You missed Plotinus and the other Platonists that followed him until Justinian closed the academy. No wonder you don't believe in this stuff.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Exactly Rick. Which is not what some mantra works suggest. That is what I think is interesting. If these mantras are the 'sonic representations' of the deity, one would think they should be spoken, or thought inside, clearly and correctly. If that is so, then what are we to make of our TM way of not thinking it but faintly? What did MMY think of these mantras? Are they symbolic, or merely tools to allow us to go inside? Cheers Bill From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:32 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras From:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: “Mental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.”
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I do remember it, but not the full gist now. You will have to forgive me. Can you 'enlighten' me about it (pun intended). Cheers Bill From: whynotnow7 whynotn...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 5:51 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Hi Bill, Your user name reminds me of the word amerindian. I am curious if you saw my comment earlier pertaining to coddling your bliss and what your thoughts are about that please? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. snip
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I want to thank everyone for being so gracious with their time and helping me come to a greater understanding about the issue of sleep and its relationship to TM. Regrettably, it has engendered some posts in directions that I never intended. For that I'm truly sorry. Nevertheless, I have received enough very helpful feedback to come to what I think is a proper understanding. It seems to me that prolonged use of TM will, in fact, change in some way my sleep patterns. Some here seem to feel that is not necessarily a bad thing, but others have clearly suffered from it. Given that I already have insomnia I think I'm going to steer clear of allowing myself to go into that level of cosmic consciousness. Accordingly, I'm going to restrict my TM practice to just 10 minutes, twice a day, preceded by 10 minutes of simple pranayama. Hopefully, I will still get some of the benefits that I feel from TM, but also not develop full-blown cosmic consciousness into my sleeping hours. Unlike Ravi, Jim, and perhaps Robin, I really find the whole notion of not sleeping very troubling. In any event I want to make this my last post on the subject, given that it has developed into some side issues that I never meant to dig up. At least we can put an end to this chapter on FLL and other discussions can ensue. I will respond to each person who has written lately in this one post. I hope I have the names right with each e-mail I saw posted. If I have made an error please forgive me. Thx so much Barry. I took your admonishment seriously and I felt, and do still feel, it was heartfelt. And yes you are right. I have taken them at their word, even though I know this is such a subjective thing. Nevertheless, even if they only got close to so-called 'Enlightenment' it is very interesting to talk to them and see what state of mind they were in and what effect it had on their personal lives. I regret that Robin left when he did. It would be so interesting if Travis and other researchers would try to document what people in UC look like encephalographically, as well as on PET scans. Thx Vaj for pointing that out. Yes I was aware that Saundaryalahari is alleged to be from Shankara, but I found out only very recently. It was here on FLL, not more then maybe a month ago, that someone mentioned this work and that there were mantras in it. That was my first exposure to it. So I looked up the work and saw my mantra there and the Ishta-devata that was associated with it. I had never been interested in the religious tradition which undergirds TM until now. I have been collecting files for roughly 15 years on the effects of meditation. Until this last month I had not really been interested in anything but the scientific aspects of meditation. So I thank that you have been willing to point these things out to me. I still have so much to learn when it comes to the background of these things. I do wish to mention one other thing. I don't think that what I had in the past, and still do to a certain point today, that is alpha intrusion, is the same as cosmic consciousness. The difference is one of thinking versus a deep inner silence that I am aware of now. Alpha intrusion is genuine insomnia (and it is still there, although not as bad as it used to be) where your mind turns over and over and it's hard to shut off your mind. As I understand it, and I admit I have never experienced it in sleep, it is the same phenomenon that I experience now in my wakeful state in quiet moments; viz., there is a second layer of complete silence that is very perceptible. I guess the best way to explain it is to use MMY's fondness for using the ocean as a way to comprehend meditation. Like everyone else I have the active, busy, mental aspect. That is the only thing I've ever been able to truly perceive outside of meditation. With others forms of meditation what I felt was a calming of this active, thinking layer. What I mean is that in my normal awakened state that is all I can normally perceive; toned down or otherwise. But after four months of TM there is a quite discernible second-level that has developed. It is more than just a quieting of my active mind; it is a perceptible second layer that is there now that does not leave and it is growing. But this level is completely silent. So, following MMY's analogy, the only thing I use to sense was the waves on top of the ocean, but now I also feel the depth of the ocean; a still, silent, depth that is the second layer in my personality. Actually I rather like it. It is definitely a calming influence. Be that as it may, you're still producing alpha waves and alpha activity; that is to say, you're still consciously aware, continually, of this silent layer. Granted that layer is not running thoughts over and over again in my mind; nevertheless that part of the mind is not going to shut off during sleep. And that is what I was really worried about.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Richard I love what you just wrote. This is all new to me. I am now rushing to Goggle!! I will say something soon. Thx!! Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) William Parkinson: I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning - Dwarka, Puri, Sringeri, and at Jyotirmath. The mantras of TM are DIRECTLY related to Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the cult of Sri Vidya was derived from the nath siddhas, tantric alchemists of medieval India, 99% of whom were Vajrayana Buddhists in the line of Nagarjuna! Read more: Sri Vidya: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm
[FairfieldLife] How to pronounce the mantras
...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) William Parkinson: I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning - Dwarka, Puri, Sringeri, and at Jyotirmath. The mantras of TM are DIRECTLY related to Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the cult of Sri Vidya was derived from the nath siddhas, tantric alchemists of medieval India, 99% of whom were Vajrayana Buddhists in the line of Nagarjuna! Read more: Sri Vidya: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:50 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You've meditated what, 6 months and already mixed up ? That's what you get when you don't pay attention to what the TM-Teacher tells you. Good luck to you, but please have a checking as soon as possible !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I am so sorry L. As I mentioned at the beginning, I might get people confused. I think I still have what you wrote to me and I will look at those links today, when I get back home. Thanks again!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Yes I was taught and taught well (at least I thought so) by a thoughtful and helpful TM teacher in Vancouver B.C. I ask only as academic matter; this is different that what I was taught. Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Sigh, are you SURE you have learned TM? Have you ever been checked? Starting to think that WIlliam is a troll... L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you for your concern Nab. Now does anyone have anything constructive to say? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bob, there are some colorful people involved with Eastern traditions, to be sure. In fact the person with that website thinks of himself as a 21rst Century maharishi. It is fine with me if Nab wants to be testy. I will reply in a collegial fashion, which is what I am used to. I wish Nab only the best. And by the way, thank you for your continued kindness!! For me personally, that is the only metric of spiritual development that really means anything to me. Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Bill, Many thanks for your posts. Have you studied much about the early Christian church (probably a silly question), say the crucifixion to AD 337? We had an excellent series of exchanges started before Robin retired and I would enjoy a few more. I wouldn't worry too much about the Nabster, he suffers from what is fondly referred to on FFL as PAS (post abduction syndrome). He generously shares a lot of images of crop circles. The current thinking is that he may have been on the ship that made most of them. From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:50:31 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You've meditated what, 6 months and already mixed up ? That's what you get when you don't pay attention to what the TM-Teacher tells you. Good luck to you, but please have a checking as soon as possible !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
I was taught and still have my receipt. Goodness!! I ask as a curiosity. Is it not possible to discuss these issues rationally and in a collegial fashion? Cheers Bill From: Yifu yifux...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/739.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 3:28 PM, William Parkinson wrote: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Honestly, while this is interesting, the best way is to be instructed in the Sanskrit alphabet's proper pronunciation and where those sounds occur in the mouth. Then learn the mantras according to the proper Sanskrit pronunciation and where they occur in the vault of the the mouth.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you Nab. I am in contact with the local teacher here and did get checked when I started again. (Annie Skipper in Kirkland WA.) Bear in mind Nab that I meditate only to improve myself. I am not as serious as some have been. So for me, if I am not saying it correct, that is ok. It is working and much faster than I thought. I assumed it might take three or four years to even have to worry about the issue of cosmic consciousness and yet here I am going into the fifth month and it's already quite palpable, which is exactly why I consulted this forum. I thought I better find out right here and now about its impact on sleep. But thank you for your concern, I appreciate it. Cheers Bill From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you for your concern Nab. Now does anyone have anything constructive to say? Cheers Bill Only glad to help :-) But if you disregard my constructive advice I can say with certaincy that you will travel further into the dead-end-road you have started leading nowhere. I can assure you that you will not receive a more constructive advise on this forum than having a checking the sooner the better.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Emptybill, you have hit on it exactly! This was another point of interest. The author of the article claims that Maharishi changed the mantras, but didn't really state why, other than to make them easier. You have framed this change within the context of making it more palatable to a Western audience. This is a very rational and reasonable proposition. People on FFL need to understand something. Since I have returned to TM, people consistently ask me about it. And I want to be as accurate as I can in everything I tell them. I deeply appreciate you pointing this out to me. It certainly has the ring of truth! Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:18 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Bill Yours is a natural question for anyone trying to understand what a meditation mantra actually is. However you have cited only one attempt to explain how to produce the sounds of these bija mantra-s. Even if you cited many different people, without knowing how to pronounce Sanskrit this topic will remain somewhat confusing to you. In the end you will still be left positioned exactly where you are now – dependent upon someone else to tell you how they pronounce it themselves or else the old reduction to my guru sez. Be aware that Maharishi worked out a way to impart bija mantras to Westerners who are not used to pronouncing semi-vowels when conjoined with consonants. Also be aware that much of these Web attempts you are seeing are nothing but the guesses of the posters and that some of them are actually quite wrong. This is another illustration of why classically trained pandits require so many years of specialized training before becoming proficient. Additionally, be aware that the anusvara endings (-n, -ng, -m) of Sanskrit words are pronounced according to their placement in the standard five oral articulations of human speech sounds in Sanskrit. Not all of these exist in English. And to make it even more confusing, understand that the pandits in differing parts of India pronounce some of these sounds in variant ways. As an ending note, I'll repeat a previous post of mine: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Although some devotional Advaitin-s may praise these texts/songs, they are still Shakta (goddess) literature, which is non-dualist in orientation. However, Adaivtin-s can perform any legitimate practice as long as he/she maintains the non-dual view. That includes the Tantric practices of Shri Vidya and Shri Chakra, nowfound by amalgamation among many advaitins.……… --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: I was taught and still have my receipt. Goodness!! I ask as a curiosity. Is it not possible to discuss these issues rationally and in a collegial fashion? Cheers Bill From: Yifu yifuxero@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras  below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/739.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 3:28 PM, William Parkinson wrote: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Honestly, while this is interesting, the best way is to be instructed in the Sanskrit alphabet's proper pronunciation and where those sounds occur in the mouth. Then learn the mantras according to the proper Sanskrit pronunciation and where they occur in the vault of the the mouth.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
LOL thank you JP. When I first saw the list I noticed he added European versions. I thought maybe he was European and that this was simply his way of pronouncing it. But on his website he claims to be an American doctor, who in his own estimation is a 21st-century Maharishi. I find it all very fascinating, even if it is sometimes confusing to me! Cheers Bill From: jpgillam jpgil...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:22 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Bill, the information you cite differs from what I learned on my TM teacher training course. I suggest you have this conversation with your TM teacher. You've seen what a runaround you get here. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul
I agree wholeheartedly! What good is Enlightenment, if you do not have an increase in love and compassion for your fellow man? And in my own personal view, compassion for the animals also. I have a distinctly Jaina streak in me. I am nearly a vegan, and like a Jain, I look where I walk so as I don't step on anything. This world has enough suffering in it and I have no desire to add to it. Thank you again Bob! A very poignant post. Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul 1 Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV) 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul
Bob did you mean 37C.E.? I have never heard of a 337C.E. date. Is that what you meant? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul 1 Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV) 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Richard and Emptybill: Given my rudimentary knowledge at this point I am wondering if the both of you can clarify something. I went and looked up on Wikipedia about Sri Vidya. I thought that the basic shakti doctrine was as follows: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness. In essence, they have divided up the notion of Brahman. One is pure consciousness, static in existence, while the other is pure consciousness in its changeable phenomenal form? I thought all these divine goddesses were simply a manifestation of shakti. Is that not correct? Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras emptybill: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Maybe so, but as TMers we are not concerned with what most Western scholars think about Shankara. It is a fact that all the Dasanami Sannyasins worship the Sri Vidya and accept the Adi Shankara as the author of the Saundarylahri. That's why at all the Ammnya Mathas founded by Shankara you will find the Sri Chakra ensconced on the mandir. Our Guru Dev was a Sri Vidya adherent and his master, Swami Krishnaanada was a Sri Vidya practitioner. So, we TMers have a direct connection to the Sringeri Matha, through Brahmananda Saraswati. Bija 'mantras', by definition, have no semantic meaning - that's why they're called 'mantras' instead of being called 'words'. If the bijas were Sanskrit words, there would be no need for a definition of them, since their meaning would be obvious to anyone who could read a Sanskrit lexicon. So, let's review: In basic TM you get the single seed sound (bija) and later the fertilizer; and you get the simple set of instructions for the correct angle to dive. So, it has now been established that at least two of the most sacred bija-mantras, out of the fifteen, contained in the Saundaryalahari, are in fact, TM bija-mantras. Read more: Subject: Guru Dev and Mantrayana Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: December 17, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ykp6rhs On the origin of the TM bija mantras: Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras. To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one listens to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable, and this is a very important component of the technique... Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya Author: Billy Smith Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: April 22, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2 You are getting warmer when it comes to understanding TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya tradition and its practice of Srividya... Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra Author: James Duffy Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga, alt.meditation Date: September 21, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
L., I looked again and there was the 'Yo William' one and another about the mission of Maharishi. I must have missed one. Maybe I deleted it by accident. Ther are none with any links!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L
Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul
Now I understand!! Well, my own expertise runs from 200 B.C.E. to 200 C.E.. My concentration and my doctoral program was in Early Christianity, Second Temple Judaism, and to a lesser degree Greco-Roman mystery cults (in particular, Mithras and Hekete). Once we get beyond 200 C.E., I fear I will be a precious little use. But certainly anything anyone wants to discuss I would be open to chiming in if I felt like anything worthwhile to add. What did you have in mind? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul Bill, I was using AD (Anno Domini) interchangeably with CE (common or Christian era). The period I'm hoping to start a new discussion on is 31/32 C.E. (death of Jesus) to May 22, 337 C.E. (death of Constantine). When Robin returned some excellent serves from a number of FFL posters the focus was the 13th centuryand 1943 (I believe the 1943 reference concerned the bombing by the Allies of the Benedictine Monastery at Mount Cassino). http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,796392,00.html From: William Parkinson ameradi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:36:08 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul Bob did you mean 37C.E.? I have never heard of a 337C.E. date. Is that what you meant? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul 1 Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV) 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
[FairfieldLife] Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the warm welcome. Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff roryg...@hotmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like everything and nothing, more like utter ignorance with utter contentment :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: PTSD and Complementary Alternative Medicine - Research Opportunities
From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:56 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: PTSD and Complementary Alternative Medicine - Research Opportunities --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba no_reply@... wrote: http://www.research.va.gov/news/research_highlights/ptsd-cam-051711.cfm I'm sure that Norman Rosenthal and the DLF are aware of this, but you might pass it on to them just in case. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] The Soul is extracted and judged by weight
Thx Vaj. Yes, I am familiar with James Austin. I have all three of his major works going back to Zen and the Brain. And I know also about Swami Rama. I have been meditating on and off for 40 years now and have a large research collection. Perhaps at this juncture it would be useful to state my own philosophical presumptions. Although I have degrees in the sciences, my PhD is in religion, and yet I am a convinced scientific materialist. My own personal view is that the phenomenological approach to religion (i.e., where we allow what we experience to determine what we believe) is arguably the worst approach to take in discerning what is true and what is false (perhaps I will write short post using Mormons as examples of this). Therefore, for me personally, I'm not interested in Enlightenment, because I don't believe it actually reflects reality (or perhaps it would be best to say, there is no external evidence which would corroborate what we feel in Enlightenment). Personally, I do not believe in what MMY called Being (which is a euphemism for Brahman, as is the so-called unified field). I have a wholly secular view that I think explains why this meditation works, without recourse to mystical or supernatural thinking. I practice meditation solely for health purposes, as well as to make me a better person (as it does seem to help develop greater patience, as well as helping me to be calm in the face of life's obstacles). Maybe a better way to frame my question would be this: Can anyone shed light on what sleep is like in the various stages as they are outlined in TM? What happens in so-called CC, which I have been experiencing (on and off) during waking hours already (and have been for about two months now). What happens when it becomes, as the new description goes, 'refined cosmic consciousness.'' And what happens when you cease the practice? Frankly, I'm not convinced that having this silent inner awareness is helpful during the sleeping hours; it might even prove to be a genuine problem!! Cheers Bill From: Yifu yifux...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:31 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Soul is extracted and judged by weight http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/714.html
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for telling me about this. Is this what MMY claimed about his own sense of mission? I have read the 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (from Paul Mason's site) and I thought that his sole purpose was simply because he had a meditation suitable for so-called 'householders.' So his real purpose was to raise the entire world consciousness, which in turn would allow others to become fully enlightened? Did I understand you correctly? If that is true that is a remarkable insight into his mission (or at least what he may have claimed for his mission). This is what I love about FFL. I get to learn so many interesting details and tidbits from all of you who have been in the movement years ago, and know far more than I do. Thank you for telling me about this!!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:11 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff rorygoff@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I must admit to being very pleased Rory-- you're the first person on this forum that I have encountered who seems to be happy that they've reached a certain level of 'higher consciousness.' To hear RC tell of his own experience, it did not seem like a very pleasant or helpful state of mind at all! I read about the helicopter incident in the book 'The Maharishi Effect and it seemed to me that this behavior might have been indicative of a highly unstable state of mind (no offense RC if you are still reading these posts; please do not take it as any indication of a judgment on you as you are now). You're the first one so far who seems to be contented with having reached a higher state of consciousness. Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to inform me of your own experiences. It has proven to be invaluable to me and very rewarding-- even if I'm not sure I fully grasp in its entirety what happened to you during these periods of intense illumination (perhaps that is a better wording than Enlightenment). Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff roryg...@hotmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:18 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! * * I wouldn't characterize this IS-ness as classic UC either, as when UC dawned for me, anyhow, there was still an essentially-separate I who was enjoying Unity or a tunnel-self with various objects of perception, but who still essentially regarded itself as separate and subject to spacetime and growth and experience coming from somewhere outside itself. Now, however, we contain a great many Is, all of whom are in different states of consciousness, depending on the quality of our relationship with them. An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? * * Every one is different, but I don't see why not :-)  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. * * That certainly was the case for me, but the great joke is, the path is actually pathless, from Here to Here, as MMY puts it, which I would gloss as being from a relative non-appreciation of Here and Now to a total whole-hearted appreciation of Here and Now. So whatever it takes to erase the intellect's superimpositions of not-Here and not-Now we are placing upon THAT-Us Here and Now, well, that is what happens :-) I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? * * Yes. I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill * * For me, anyhow, this is IT, Home, my Beloved, what I had been searching for forever, and so I am supremely satisfied with its questionable utility :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thx so much XA. What you describe is the one thing I fear the most. I have had insomnia for my entire adult life and when I went to a sleep lab way back in 1982 (at U.C.Irvine in California) I was told I had alpha intrusion.' Obviously I was having trouble getting out of the restful state of alpha and into the drowsy theta state and then into the sleeping delta. So, when the article in Sleep showed that these TM meditators where producing alpha waves, while concomitantly showing delta waves, that turned me off. I quit doing TM long ago because of it. That was 11 years ago. But around 5 months ago now I started TM again and it was not too long, perhaps 10 weeks later, I could tell that CC was starting to develop. That silent inner layer, which was there all the time when I was not too mentally active (so, watching TV I could 'feel' it), was growing and I worry about the effects on sleep. Your story is, for me, a real cautionary tale to be sure. I am deeply grateful to you for sharing it with me. I guess the only good thing to take way for all of this was that the CC experience did go away in time. If I may ask one question XA: How much were you meditating? Were you going far beyond the typical twice-per-day, 20 minute program? Were you using advanced techniques? Were you going to all those residence courses to undergo 'rounding'? Clint Eastwood has been meditating for 40 years and I assume he is doing TM 'lite,' as I am. He seems none the worse for wear, so to speak. Cheers Bill From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:45 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat around on my head for any appreciable length of time, at least. To paraphrase MMY: as long as you have thoughts during meditation, you can still benefit from meditation... L. I do not think it has ever been determined that the sign posts or benchmarks
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Vaj, as I understand it, the TM people don't make hay from the mere presence of alpha waves, but rather from alpha coherence, which is wide spread over the various lobes. Is that not correct? Am I missing something here? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Cheers Bill From: Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Bhairitu wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness put it Other relaxation techniques have led to the same EEG profile, and studies thatemployed counter-balanced control relaxation conditions consistently found a lack of alpha power increases or even decreases when comparing relaxation or hypnosis to TM meditation. I hope those folks who are so wowed about TM remember to take an Ativan before they ever venture into Disneyworld or a Benihana steak house.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort and like ancient scriptures point out the other factors seems to be grace, the existing attachments and one's innate tendencies. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility I can vouch for long term brain changes, I would definitely disagree with the questionable utility part. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Hello Bob and thank you for your kind words. I used to live in the Great White North. When I first started out to enter into a doctoral program I had two options open up to me. The first was at the University of Pennsylvania to study under Bob Kraft or to go to the University of Toronto to study under John Kloppenborg. Thankfully I was offered admission into both programs. I visited with both men and decided upon the University of Toronto. Bob Kraft was wonderful to me and he is a brilliant scholar, but the research that he wanted me to work on simply put me off. After meeting with John, and thinking that I would accept admission to the University of Toronto, I talked to another brilliant scholar in Canada by the name of Larry Hurtado. At that time he was at one of the worst universities in Canada-- the University of Manitoba. However, being American, I had no idea how bad it was. Anyway I drove from Toronto to Winnipeg and he spent 6 1/2 hours with me in his backyard, along with his wife, having a barbecue for me. He went so far out of his way and he was such a brilliant scholar that he convinced me to go to the University of Manitoba. Fortunately luck was going to smile upon the both of us. One day, about six months after being with Larry, he came to me and asked me to teach his classes for a few days. He never told me why or where he was going. Long story short, he had been interviewed at the University of Edinburgh in the UK (traditionally the third-best university there after Cambridge and Oxford so it was quite a feather in his cap) to be the chairman of the department. He did get the job there. So under the circumstanes both U. Penn and U.Toronto told me they would take me in if I did not want to go with him there. I did want to go, but back then the UK forced pet owners to quarantine their animals for six months upon entry into the UK. So, if I was to finish up my program with Larry over there I had to quickly find someone to accept my dogs. I got lucky again and found someone who would watch them. So I decided I would jump ship with him rather than to move over to the U. of Toronto or to U.Penn. Now I have to ask you: What made you think I had been in Canada or Africa? Now you had me curious! Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dr. Parkinson, Welcome to FFL. I've been enjoying your exchanges with our fellow posters immensely. Lately, I've been trying to communicate in moving images but I'm afraid I'll never match the lyrical magic or sattva of our talented Yifu. While reading one of your posts I found myself reaching for my Webster's and remembered the last time I reached out like that. I was wondering if you've recently been to Canada or Africa? From: William Parkinson ameradi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:22:34 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for the information Bhairitu . I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' Perhaps I am just slow witted, but I don't believe in Ishta-devatas or any of these deities. For me it is sort of like if an Italian person came to me and gave me an ancient religious tradition that was based on a belief in Hermes or Zeus or Neptune. These are just personifications of natural forces and experiences. Still, TM does work! I have my own secular explanation as to what I think makes it work, but of course maybe Kali, Lakshmi and the other goddesses of the Divine mother tradition are real! Nevertheless, I find it fascinating to trace the roots of this religious tradition. I hope you will add any further information you can on the tradition. There is so much I really do not understand about it or even about the growth of the tradition after Shankara. Perhaps others can shed further light upon the tradition that underlies TM. At this point, having heard too many testimonials concerning disrupted sleep patterns (even when they are seen as being helpful) I think I'm going to cut back my TM to 10 minutes each session and add 10 minutes of pranayama prior to doing the TM. Maybe in that fashion I can still get some of the benefits from the practice, but not develop full-blown CC, which would surface during my sleeping hours. Anyway thank you so much!! Cheers Bill From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) On 07/13/2011 11:12 AM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. That's because it's a beej mantra which are generally used to enrich longer mantras. They're short and create a quick dip. Longer mantras create a more sustained effect. Maharishi wanted people to get the advanced technique as early as a year and a half after the first. It resembles a guru mantra for the tradition. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. Witnessing in sleep is not uncommon when one practices advanced meditations. But you'll also find plenty of yogis who will tell you they are dead to the world during sleep and happy for it. I taught TM briefly in the late 70s. About 11 years ago I learned tantra from an authentic Indian tantric yogi who resides in the US. TM for me was a dead end because we were never taught things like mantra shastra or how to use different mantras. We were nothing more than parrots for the technique. With the tantric I learned things like mantra shastra. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill
