[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

That was what I was seeking from you Ravi, an authentic post.  I really 
appreciate it.

I am sort of the opposite of a spiritual guy in the sense that spiritual people 
talk about seeing the infinite, the universal and the God in others and that 
connects them.  I am seeking a human connection, a place where I can say, I am 
like you, I understand where you are coming from.  I can be like that 
sometimes. The more a person seems to be impossible to relate to, to see 
myself in, the sweeter the reward if I can connect on a human level.

In my calling you on condescending to me, I was also taking higher ground on 
you.  I was saying that you are an oddball and unlike me who is so firmly 
connected to non-oddballness. (An absurd notion to anyone who knows me well!)  
So I can only point my finger at you so long before noticing the three pointing 
back at myself.

I don't believe you have my heart intellect balance right.  Like you I can only 
filter myself into this medium.  And I do accept that a lot of what goes on 
here is not a full representation of you. I appreciate your taking the time to 
fill that out a bit.

So although I may run a more conservative number on people than you do, and I 
view myself as non-enlightened or God realized, I see some of myself in you.  
And I really didn't want to at first.  I wanted just to write you off as 
another person who couldn't connect on any level with me without me treating 
you as if you were your beloved's favorite whatever.

But I was wrong.  You came through.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
  
   Yes I'm sincere in my love to my beloved and I do love to share
 that. It
   might come across as special state of mind, condescending,
 derogatory,
   awareness of other's state of mind, front'n, running numbers on
   strangers, subjective, vague but I can't help it. You are spot on
 that
   the only way I can express it is through metaphors designed for
 shock
   effect and so guilty as charged.
 
 
  Mostly it just comes off as unconvincing and odd.
 
 Yes that is true.
 
   But I am not looking for any
   relationship with you or anyone else, like I said I am not looking
 for a threesome. So you are absolutely spot on everything except for
 the threesome part.
 
 
  That's cool.  It was worth a shot.  But I disagree that you don't want
 a relationship with me on FFL, you bring up my name in a derogatory way
 repeatedly.  What you mean is that you don't seek a pleasant, respectful
 relationship with me here and prefer to condescend and insult from on
 high. In my experience there is often no there there with pugnacious
 people.  But I my be wrong about you.
 
 Well in my personal life I mock myself in attempt to share my joy - I
 was at the ashram yesterday feeling high, went to the dishwashing area,
 loudly welcoming everyone I knew, remarked that I should come sober to
 the ashram and Amma should be hiding her divine vodka from an alcoholic
 like me. Amma is visiting in June here and I loudly remarked that how I
 don't even need to see her but she would miss me if I didn't. So I
 attract lot of attention from the people around me. I have another
 friend who likes me but she thinks I'm odd and crazy at times and so I
 will remark loudly to her and the people around that I'm bipolar,
 paranoid schizophrenic and I'm very manic now. Its a very similar
 behavior at work but in a much restrained fashion - alternating
 seriousness and playful fun. With two of my close Indian colleagues I'm
 much more uninhibited, they are much younger with no emotional baggage
 and thoroughly enjoy my antics.
 And then FFL is the only I indulge in this kind of behavior because I
 think it presents lot of people caught in their head. And the medium
 makes it easy to as you say run a number on strangers. I have no other
 justification for my rude behavior other than the metaphor of insulting
 my beloved that was presented here, I can only assure that none is
 coming your way from now on and hope for your love and forgiveness.My
 behavior one-on-one is completely different than my online persona.
 
 
   You and others might think you are not insulting my beloved but I
   believe you are and I have to act accordingly to protect her. We can
   agree to disagree.
 
 
 
  I believe you have such weak intellectual boundaries that you actually
 aren't able to agree to disagree. You go on the attack on anyone who
 doesn't buy into your superior status.  I can't imagine that that is
 working out for you very well.  It certainly doesn't work with me.
 
 You are right, I just threw out the agree to disagree phrase more
 sarcastically, I place zero value on intellectual discussions that don't
 go anywhere. Incredible as it may sound this kind of behavior doesn't
 bother me at all. I intentionally 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

Curtis, Thanks for those beautiful thoughts, I had to admit defeat to your 
dogged persistence. But the truth is always the winner, it's the supreme 
consciousness admiring it's own creation through the eyes of Curtis defeating 
supreme consciousness admiring it's own creation through the eyes of Ravi, so 
who's the winner and loser is not clear :-). Winning and losing only applies to 
the relative and not the absolute.

It's no secret I like to indulge in fights and I thought you were a good 
candidate to start a fight with because of your many fans here. I have indulged 
with many but no one has come out a winner except for you. Regardless of the 
enlightement game that shows that you indeed deserve the praise of many and 
that you are an intelligent man who has integrity. Oh yeah you do seem to love 
the beloved in your own way :-)



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 That was what I was seeking from you Ravi, an authentic post.  I really 
 appreciate it.
 
 I am sort of the opposite of a spiritual guy in the sense that spiritual 
 people talk about seeing the infinite, the universal and the God in others 
 and that connects them.  I am seeking a human connection, a place where I can 
 say, I am like you, I understand where you are coming from.  I can be like 
 that sometimes. The more a person seems to be impossible to relate to, to 
 see myself in, the sweeter the reward if I can connect on a human level.
 
 In my calling you on condescending to me, I was also taking higher ground on 
 you.  I was saying that you are an oddball and unlike me who is so firmly 
 connected to non-oddballness. (An absurd notion to anyone who knows me well!) 
  So I can only point my finger at you so long before noticing the three 
 pointing back at myself.
 
 I don't believe you have my heart intellect balance right.  Like you I can 
 only filter myself into this medium.  And I do accept that a lot of what goes 
 on here is not a full representation of you. I appreciate your taking the 
 time to fill that out a bit.
 
 So although I may run a more conservative number on people than you do, and I 
 view myself as non-enlightened or God realized, I see some of myself in you.  
 And I really didn't want to at first.  I wanted just to write you off as 
 another person who couldn't connect on any level with me without me treating 
 you as if you were your beloved's favorite whatever.
 
 But I was wrong.  You came through.
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
   
   
Yes I'm sincere in my love to my beloved and I do love to share
  that. It
might come across as special state of mind, condescending,
  derogatory,
awareness of other's state of mind, front'n, running numbers on
strangers, subjective, vague but I can't help it. You are spot on
  that
the only way I can express it is through metaphors designed for
  shock
effect and so guilty as charged.
  
  
   Mostly it just comes off as unconvincing and odd.
  
  Yes that is true.
  
But I am not looking for any
relationship with you or anyone else, like I said I am not looking
  for a threesome. So you are absolutely spot on everything except for
  the threesome part.
  
  
   That's cool.  It was worth a shot.  But I disagree that you don't want
  a relationship with me on FFL, you bring up my name in a derogatory way
  repeatedly.  What you mean is that you don't seek a pleasant, respectful
  relationship with me here and prefer to condescend and insult from on
  high. In my experience there is often no there there with pugnacious
  people.  But I my be wrong about you.
  
  Well in my personal life I mock myself in attempt to share my joy - I
  was at the ashram yesterday feeling high, went to the dishwashing area,
  loudly welcoming everyone I knew, remarked that I should come sober to
  the ashram and Amma should be hiding her divine vodka from an alcoholic
  like me. Amma is visiting in June here and I loudly remarked that how I
  don't even need to see her but she would miss me if I didn't. So I
  attract lot of attention from the people around me. I have another
  friend who likes me but she thinks I'm odd and crazy at times and so I
  will remark loudly to her and the people around that I'm bipolar,
  paranoid schizophrenic and I'm very manic now. Its a very similar
  behavior at work but in a much restrained fashion - alternating
  seriousness and playful fun. With two of my close Indian colleagues I'm
  much more uninhibited, they are much younger with no emotional baggage
  and thoroughly enjoy my antics.
  And then FFL is the only I indulge in this kind of behavior because I
  think it presents lot of people caught in their head. And the medium
  makes it easy to as you say run a number 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:
  Oh yeah you do seem to love the beloved in your own way :-)

You mean like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uzz4I_Yv1Mfeature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uzz4I_Yv1Mfeature=related

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

I have addressed this in the past that the 3 V's of Vairaagya
(dispassion), Viveka (discrimination) and Vichaara (inquiry) is the
proper use of intellect, and that intellect is on the payroll of the
higher self and not does the bidding of the ego. Whoring of the ego is
what I refer to as intellectual deception, to use circular logic or dry
polemics to avoid confronting the truth or arriving at a intellectual
standpoint like the neo-advaitins who delude themselves.
This kind of intellectual deception is not a knew phenomenon. Here's a
beautiful story of a such an intellectual, a Brahmin called Soonga from
the great classic Tripura Rahasya that I shared in the past.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/272538
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/272538



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@...
wrote:

 Dude, can you please explain what you mean with whoring the intellect?
Use of the intellect is necessary as a means of discrimination. But
there seems to be a particular way in which the intellect is used when
you refer to it as 'whoring'?

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter L Sutphen
drpetersutphen@
  wrote:
   
Damn hammer!
   
Peter
  
  
   But its the only tool I got, so I am in deep heat looking for an
f'ing
  nail to slam.
  
 
  You clearly seem to have lot of infantile pains with hammers and
nails,
  I don't.
 
   
On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:39 AM, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@
  wrote:
   
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
  wrote:

 So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a
special
  relationship with the creator of the universe, right?

 The little routine that you are above the whore intellect
isn't
  fooling anyone here either.

 Poor carpenter blames his tools.







 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
  wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung
no_reply@
  wrote:

 Nice piece, Dude.

 Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.


 Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up
for
  others
 who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
  plain
 English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any
better
  or
 worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
  fragrant.

 So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
  spiritual
 list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish
behavior?

 The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and
it
  isn't
 interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
  disagree with
 if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.


 Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how
full
  of
 intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day?
You
  have to
 use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that
for
  brevity.
 I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are
already
  too
 fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.





 

 To subscribe, send a message to:
 fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

 Or go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
 and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links



   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
 need anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex
 with my beloved :-)
 
  That may be so but you spend quite a bit of time here presenting
 yourself as if you are in a special state of mind. And since you often
 use my name in a derogatory way you should not be surprised that I come
 into your room sometimes while you are having sex with your beloved to
 point out your bare bottom.
 
   and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
   (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved.
 
  How could you have any idea what my internal state is Ravi?  What you
 are trying to spin as a fascination with the whore intellect is just
 me enjoying conversations on an internet conversation board. If you are
 tying to present yourself to me as some sort of authority on human life
 I am afraid I will have to decline your offer.  If you are trying to
 condescend to me as if you are speaking from a state of enlightenment
 that I am not in, again I decline to accept that relationship with you. 
 People who run such numbers on strangers are just front'n.  You can look
 that up in your gansta dictionary.
 
   It may sound
   routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
   intellectual deception.
 
  This is not the first time you have characterized my posting as
 deception. But once again you have failed to offer the kind of specifics
 that make this charge meaningful. You might take a lesson from Judy on
 this.  She is able to point her finger at exactly what I have posted
 that she disagrees with.  That opens up the conversation.
 
  The whole idea that you have to defend your beloved from someone like
 me is absurd.  You haven't even made it clear what specific experience
 you are talking about. All you have done is thrown out a lot of
 metaphors designed for dramatic shock effect.  What you are defending
 your beloved against is my interpretation that you are passing your
 subjective experience through the filter of lots of imagination.  And an
 above average need to present yourself as superior to other posters
 here.
 
  I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi.  I am fanning that.
 
 
 
 Yes I'm sincere in my love to my beloved and I do love to share that. It
 might come across as special state of mind, condescending, derogatory,
 awareness of other's state of mind, front'n, running numbers on
 strangers, subjective, vague but I can't help it. You are spot on that
 the only way I can express it is through metaphors designed for shock
 effect and so guilty as charged. 


Mostly it just comes off as unconvincing and odd. 


 But I am not looking for any
 relationship with you or anyone else, like I said I am not looking for a 
 threesome. So you are absolutely spot on everything except for the threesome 
 part.


That's cool.  It was worth a shot.  But I disagree that you don't want a 
relationship with me on FFL, you bring up my name in a derogatory way 
repeatedly.  What you mean is that you don't seek a pleasant, respectful 
relationship with me here and prefer to condescend and insult from on high. In 
my experience there is often no there there with pugnacious people.  But I my 
be wrong about you. 
 

 You and others might think you are not insulting my beloved but I
 believe you are and I have to act accordingly to protect her. We can
 agree to disagree.



I believe you have such weak intellectual boundaries that you actually aren't 
able to agree to disagree. You go on the attack on anyone who doesn't buy 
into your superior status.  I can't imagine that that is working out for you 
very well.  It certainly doesn't work with me.  

As I said, it was worth a shot.  And I can't discount that my approach might 
have been fraught with too many judgments to make it a realistic expectation.  
In other words the breakdown in communication is not all on you brother.  I'll 
tend to my garden and see what I can learn from this.

In the meantime I hope to read your exchanges with Jim whom you seem to regard 
as on your level.  He may be a better man for this job.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
 In the meantime I hope to read your exchanges with Jim whom you seem
to regard as on your level. He may be a better man for this job.


Some things just make me laugh.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

Thanks - I get it. The history angle is interesting, in that this game of mind 
games to avoid realization has been going on apparently as long as realization 
has.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 I have addressed this in the past that the 3 V's of Vairaagya
 (dispassion), Viveka (discrimination) and Vichaara (inquiry) is the
 proper use of intellect, and that intellect is on the payroll of the
 higher self and not does the bidding of the ego. Whoring of the ego is
 what I refer to as intellectual deception, to use circular logic or dry
 polemics to avoid confronting the truth or arriving at a intellectual
 standpoint like the neo-advaitins who delude themselves.
 This kind of intellectual deception is not a knew phenomenon. Here's a
 beautiful story of a such an intellectual, a Brahmin called Soonga from
 the great classic Tripura Rahasya that I shared in the past.
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/272538
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/272538
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@
 wrote:
 
  Dude, can you please explain what you mean with whoring the intellect?
 Use of the intellect is necessary as a means of discrimination. But
 there seems to be a particular way in which the intellect is used when
 you refer to it as 'whoring'?
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
   
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter L Sutphen
 drpetersutphen@
   wrote:

 Damn hammer!

 Peter
   
   
But its the only tool I got, so I am in deep heat looking for an
 f'ing
   nail to slam.
   
  
   You clearly seem to have lot of infantile pains with hammers and
 nails,
   I don't.
  

 On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:39 AM, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@
   wrote:

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
   wrote:
 
  So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a
 special
   relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
 
  The little routine that you are above the whore intellect
 isn't
   fooling anyone here either.
 
  Poor carpenter blames his tools.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
   wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung
 no_reply@
   wrote:
 
  Nice piece, Dude.
 
  Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
  Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up
 for
   others
  who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
   plain
  English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any
 better
   or
  worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
   fragrant.
 
  So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
   spiritual
  list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish
 behavior?
 
  The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and
 it
   isn't
  interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
   disagree with
  if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
 
 
  Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how
 full
   of
  intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day?
 You
   have to
  use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that
 for
   brevity.
  I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are
 already
   too
  fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
  To subscribe, send a message to:
  fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
 
  Or go to:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
  and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
 
  Yes I'm sincere in my love to my beloved and I do love to share
that. It
  might come across as special state of mind, condescending,
derogatory,
  awareness of other's state of mind, front'n, running numbers on
  strangers, subjective, vague but I can't help it. You are spot on
that
  the only way I can express it is through metaphors designed for
shock
  effect and so guilty as charged.


 Mostly it just comes off as unconvincing and odd.

Yes that is true.

  But I am not looking for any
  relationship with you or anyone else, like I said I am not looking
for a threesome. So you are absolutely spot on everything except for
the threesome part.


 That's cool.  It was worth a shot.  But I disagree that you don't want
a relationship with me on FFL, you bring up my name in a derogatory way
repeatedly.  What you mean is that you don't seek a pleasant, respectful
relationship with me here and prefer to condescend and insult from on
high. In my experience there is often no there there with pugnacious
people.  But I my be wrong about you.

Well in my personal life I mock myself in attempt to share my joy - I
was at the ashram yesterday feeling high, went to the dishwashing area,
loudly welcoming everyone I knew, remarked that I should come sober to
the ashram and Amma should be hiding her divine vodka from an alcoholic
like me. Amma is visiting in June here and I loudly remarked that how I
don't even need to see her but she would miss me if I didn't. So I
attract lot of attention from the people around me. I have another
friend who likes me but she thinks I'm odd and crazy at times and so I
will remark loudly to her and the people around that I'm bipolar,
paranoid schizophrenic and I'm very manic now. Its a very similar
behavior at work but in a much restrained fashion - alternating
seriousness and playful fun. With two of my close Indian colleagues I'm
much more uninhibited, they are much younger with no emotional baggage
and thoroughly enjoy my antics.
And then FFL is the only I indulge in this kind of behavior because I
think it presents lot of people caught in their head. And the medium
makes it easy to as you say run a number on strangers. I have no other
justification for my rude behavior other than the metaphor of insulting
my beloved that was presented here, I can only assure that none is
coming your way from now on and hope for your love and forgiveness.My
behavior one-on-one is completely different than my online persona.


  You and others might think you are not insulting my beloved but I
  believe you are and I have to act accordingly to protect her. We can
  agree to disagree.



 I believe you have such weak intellectual boundaries that you actually
aren't able to agree to disagree. You go on the attack on anyone who
doesn't buy into your superior status.  I can't imagine that that is
working out for you very well.  It certainly doesn't work with me.

You are right, I just threw out the agree to disagree phrase more
sarcastically, I place zero value on intellectual discussions that don't
go anywhere. Incredible as it may sound this kind of behavior doesn't
bother me at all. I intentionally indulge and revel in it, I have been
involved in chat lists since late 90's, in the past I would get very
disturbed, angry and agitated at people who I thought didn't understand
the need to go beyond the words to get the truth. I would react very
belligerently but would feel very guilty. After my experiences I realize
that habits are not the issue, its the consciousness I bring to it. So
now I continue with a detached playfulness.
 As I said, it was worth a shot.  And I can't discount that my approach
might have been fraught with too many judgments to make it a realistic
expectation.  In other words the breakdown in communication is not all
on you brother.  I'll tend to my garden and see what I can learn from
this.

 In the meantime I hope to read your exchanges with Jim whom you seem
to regard as on your level.  He may be a better man for this job.


Its' not I consider anyone as equal or unequal I just think Jim
intuitively gets it. Steve is another I think that gets it - anyone who
is heart and gut centered will usually go beyond the words.


 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

Steve, no I don't think I am stopping anyone from expressing their POV, 
I don't have any intention of doing so and I think its quite a stretch
of imagination to think I have the power to do so. But my loyalty to my
beloved remains and being a man I have to defend her by being aggressive
and attacking. What do you suggest that I plead, beg and bargain? Then I
wouldn't be called a lover, I would be a cheap diplomat, a crooked
businessman or a dirty politician - no thanks :-)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@...
wrote:



 I guess the question I have Rav, is, are you going to stomp on every
 infraction you see?  I liked Jim's challenge, if that's what you want
to
 call it.  It help get some clarification from Curtis and Ravi.  And
 really Ravi, I like your perspective.  But I just wonder if you are
 going to continue the full court press on what you view as
 transgressions against your beloved.  (I promise I am not making fun
of
 you, but I am chuckling a little inside).  Or are you going to step
back
 a little and gives others a little leeway in expressing their opinion,
 even if it strays far from what you see as as an honest POV.

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
 need
  anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex with
my
  beloved :-) and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
  (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved. It may
 sound
  routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
  intellectual deception.
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
  relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
  
   The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
  fooling anyone here either.
  
   Poor carpenter blames his tools.
  
  
  
  
  
   
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung
no_reply@
  wrote:
   
Nice piece, Dude.
  
   Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
  Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up
for
  others
who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
plain
English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better
 or
worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
  fragrant.

 So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
  spiritual
list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?

 The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it
  isn't
interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
disagree
  with
if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.


Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how
full
 of
intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
  have to
use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
  brevity.
I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already
 too
fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't need 
 anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex with my 
 beloved :-)

That may be so but you spend quite a bit of time here presenting yourself as if 
you are in a special state of mind. And since you often use my name in a 
derogatory way you should not be surprised that I come into your room sometimes 
while you are having sex with your beloved to point out your bare bottom.

 and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
 (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved.

How could you have any idea what my internal state is Ravi?  What you are 
trying to spin as a fascination with the whore intellect is just me enjoying 
conversations on an internet conversation board. If you are tying to present 
yourself to me as some sort of authority on human life I am afraid I will have 
to decline your offer.  If you are trying to condescend to me as if you are 
speaking from a state of enlightenment that I am not in, again I decline to 
accept that relationship with you.  People who run such numbers on strangers 
are just front'n.  You can look that up in your gansta dictionary.

 It may sound
 routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
 intellectual deception.

This is not the first time you have characterized my posting as deception. But 
once again you have failed to offer the kind of specifics that make this charge 
meaningful. You might take a lesson from Judy on this.  She is able to point 
her finger at exactly what I have posted that she disagrees with.  That opens 
up the conversation. 

The whole idea that you have to defend your beloved from someone like me is 
absurd.  You haven't even made it clear what specific experience you are 
talking about. All you have done is thrown out a lot of metaphors designed for 
dramatic shock effect.  What you are defending your beloved against is my 
interpretation that you are passing your subjective experience through the 
filter of lots of imagination.  And an above average need to present yourself 
as superior to other posters here.

I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi.  I am fanning that.




 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
 relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
 
  The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
 fooling anyone here either.
 
  Poor carpenter blames his tools.
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@
 wrote:
  
   Nice piece, Dude.
 
  Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.


 Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for
 others
   who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
   English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
   worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
 fragrant.
   
So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
 spiritual
   list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
   
The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it
 isn't
   interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree
 with
   if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
   
   
   Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
   intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
 have to
   use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
 brevity.
   I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
   fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

snip
  I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi. I am fanning that.

I like this.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 Steve, no I don't think I am stopping anyone from expressing their
POV,
 I don't have any intention of doing so and I think its quite a stretch
 of imagination to think I have the power to do so.

I didn't mean to imply that you did.

But my loyalty to my
 beloved remains and being a man I have to defend her by being
aggressive
 and attacking. What do you suggest that I plead, beg and bargain? Then
I
 wouldn't be called a lover, I would be a cheap diplomat, a crooked
 businessman or a dirty politician - no thanks :-)


I didn't mean to imply that you do.  But you seem to always be spoiling
for a fight, and you also seem to find offenses to the beloved around
many corners.   But maybe you just have a sharper intellect.  Or just a
mensch. (complimentary term)


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@
 wrote:
 
 
 
  I guess the question I have Rav, is, are you going to stomp on every
  infraction you see? I liked Jim's challenge, if that's what you want
 to
  call it. It help get some clarification from Curtis and Ravi. And
  really Ravi, I like your perspective. But I just wonder if you are
  going to continue the full court press on what you view as
  transgressions against your beloved. (I promise I am not making fun
 of
  you, but I am chuckling a little inside). Or are you going to step
 back
  a little and gives others a little leeway in expressing their
opinion,
  even if it strays far from what you see as as an honest POV.
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
  need
   anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex
with
 my
   beloved :-) and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
   (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved. It may
  sound
   routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote
of
   intellectual deception.
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
wrote:
   
So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
   relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
   
The little routine that you are above the whore intellect
isn't
   fooling anyone here either.
   
Poor carpenter blames his tools.
   
   
   
   
   


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung
 no_reply@
   wrote:

 Nice piece, Dude.
   
Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
  
  
   Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up
 for
   others
 who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
 plain
 English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any
better
  or
 worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
   fragrant.
 
  So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
   spiritual
 list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish
behavior?
 
  The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it
   isn't
 interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
 disagree
   with
 if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
 
 
 Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how
 full
  of
 intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day?
You
   have to
 use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that
for
   brevity.
 I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are
already
  too
 fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

-- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
 snip
   I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi. I am fanning that.
 
 I like this.

Thanks Steve.  Remember the discussions I had with Rory and Jim about their 
internal experiences?  We found a respectful place to discuss our different 
points of view.  It took some time.   Started off a bit rocky but we found our 
way together.  They got a chance to articulate what they were experiencing and 
I felt heard about the perspective I have about these mental states.  I learned 
a lot from it.  That is what I'm shooting for here.  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
  snip
I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi. I am fanning that.
  
  I like this.
 
 Thanks Steve.  Remember the discussions I had with Rory 
 and Jim about their internal experiences?  We found a 
 respectful place to discuss our different points of view.  
 It took some time. Started off a bit rocky but we found 
 our way together. They got a chance to articulate what 
 they were experiencing and I felt heard about the 
 perspective I have about these mental states. I learned 
 a lot from it. That is what I'm shooting for here.  

A lofty goal. I wish you luck. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't need 
  anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex with my 
  beloved :-)
 
 That may be so but you spend quite a bit of time here presenting yourself as 
 if you are in a special state of mind. And since you often use my name in a 
 derogatory way you should not be surprised that I come into your room 
 sometimes while you are having sex with your beloved to point out your bare 
 bottom.
 
  and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
  (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved.
 
 How could you have any idea what my internal state is Ravi?  What you are 
 trying to spin as a fascination with the whore intellect is just me 
 enjoying conversations on an internet conversation board. If you are tying to 
 present yourself to me as some sort of authority on human life I am afraid I 
 will have to decline your offer.  If you are trying to condescend to me as if 
 you are speaking from a state of enlightenment that I am not in, again I 
 decline to accept that relationship with you.  People who run such numbers on 
 strangers are just front'n.  You can look that up in your gansta dictionary.
 
  It may sound
  routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
  intellectual deception.
 
 This is not the first time you have characterized my posting as deception. 
 But once again you have failed to offer the kind of specifics that make this 
 charge meaningful. You might take a lesson from Judy on this.  She is able to 
 point her finger at exactly what I have posted that she disagrees with.  That 
 opens up the conversation. 
 
 The whole idea that you have to defend your beloved from someone like me is 
 absurd.  You haven't even made it clear what specific experience you are 
 talking about. All you have done is thrown out a lot of metaphors designed 
 for dramatic shock effect.  What you are defending your beloved against is my 
 interpretation that you are passing your subjective experience through the 
 filter of lots of imagination.  And an above average need to present yourself 
 as superior to other posters here.

How about, I am nothing. Lower than the lowest. No different from dog poo (or 
god poo). Ready and eager to help my self where ever I find me. Accomplishing 
nothing. Having nothing. Doing nothing. No fortune or fame. Nothing that makes 
me different or a standout. Eating dirt and loving it. The world walks over me 
and I thrill to this awesome massage. Season pass has expired. No where to go 
but where the winds blow my sorry ass. Gratitude and praise for everything 
around me. No needs, no drama, no seeking betterments and distinction. Just a 
lazy lump. Happy I am, all in a new day.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[tartbrain]

Frank Patangalli? He got offed by the family after his betrayal, right?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willytex@ wrote:
 
 Yes you are right I meant Patanjali.  
 
 
 
  
  
  Curtis:
   That phrase refers to my opinion of Shankara.
  
  But, the thread was about Patanjali.
  
  You said Patanjali was 'full of it' and his premises are 
  'bogus'. Why would you be telling Buck that Patanjali 
  was bogus if you wanted to dialog with Buck about Yoga? It
  doesn't make any sense.
  
  Fraqnkly, I expected more from a MUM philosophy major. I 
  mean what, exactly, are Patanjali's premises? You seemed 
  confused that Sankhya was the oldest Indian system and you
  didn't seem to be able to cite any specifics about 
  Patanjali. 
  
  Buck:
  O what a bunch of evil sophistry.
 
  This thread reads as careful veiled spiritual hate.
  The beating of poor old Patanjali by mob.
 
  turquoiseb:
 One guy, having fun with an imaginary conversation
 with a possibly imaginary guy, is a *mob*? And you
 dare to use the word sophistry? :-)

  Buck:
Yep, inciting and intending to be incendiary. Oh sure 
it is in mob and violent. You come on here demagogically 
saying something is no good because you don't like it.
Curtis joins in. Joe and SevenRay pile on and we got
a regular FFL book and Patanjali-in-effigy strawman 
burning by mob.
   
  curtis:
   I just think he was full of it and that his premises about 
   reality are bogus...
   
   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/274662
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter L Sutphen drpetersutphen@... 
wrote:

 Damn hammer!
 
 Peter


But its the only tool I got, so I am in deep heat looking for an f'ing nail to 
slam.

 
 On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:39 AM, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
  So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special 
  relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
  
  The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't fooling 
  anyone here either.  
  
  Poor carpenter blames his tools.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
  
  Nice piece, Dude.
  
  Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
  
  
  Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
  who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
  English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
  worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
  
  So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
  list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
  
  The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't
  interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
  if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
  
  
  Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
  intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You have to
  use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for brevity.
  I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
  fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  To subscribe, send a message to:
  fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
  
  Or go to: 
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
  and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
  
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@... wrote:
 How about, I am nothing. Lower than the lowest. No different from dog
poo (or god poo). Ready and eager to help my self where ever I find me.
Accomplishing nothing. Having nothing. Doing nothing. No fortune or
fame. Nothing that makes me different or a standout. Eating dirt and
loving it. The world walks over me and I thrill to this awesome massage.
Season pass has expired. No where to go but where the winds blow my
sorry ass. Gratitude and praise for everything around me. No needs, no
drama, no seeking betterments and distinction. Just a lazy lump. Happy I
am, all in a new day.

Is this original?   I can see this a the lyrics to a rock song.  The
lyrics would kind of be shouted. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  How about, I am nothing. Lower than the lowest. No different 
  from dog poo (or god poo). Ready and eager to help my self 
  where ever I find me. Accomplishing nothing. Having nothing. 
  Doing nothing. No fortune or fame. Nothing that makes me 
  different or a standout. Eating dirt and loving it. The world 
  walks over me and I thrill to this awesome massage. Season 
  pass has expired. No where to go but where the winds blow my
  sorry ass. Gratitude and praise for everything around me. No 
  needs, no drama, no seeking betterments and distinction. Just 
  a lazy lump. Happy I am, all in a new day.
 
 Is this original?   I can see this a the lyrics to a rock song.  
 The lyrics would kind of be shouted.

By a guy sporting a 1000-dollar haircut and wearing several
thousand dollars worth of designer discogarb. Love it. It's
like the Punker Donovan.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[tartbrain]

It was pre expresso  morning brain dribble. But If James or Steven Tyler want 
to anthem it out, I would give my blessings. 
 
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote:

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  How about, I am nothing. Lower than the lowest. No different from dog
 poo (or god poo). Ready and eager to help my self where ever I find me.
 Accomplishing nothing. Having nothing. Doing nothing. No fortune or
 fame. Nothing that makes me different or a standout. Eating dirt and
 loving it. The world walks over me and I thrill to this awesome massage.
 Season pass has expired. No where to go but where the winds blow my
 sorry ass. Gratitude and praise for everything around me. No needs, no
 drama, no seeking betterments and distinction. Just a lazy lump. Happy I
 am, all in a new day.
 
 Is this original?   I can see this a the lyrics to a rock song.  The
 lyrics would kind of be shouted.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
need anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex
with my beloved :-)

 That may be so but you spend quite a bit of time here presenting
yourself as if you are in a special state of mind. And since you often
use my name in a derogatory way you should not be surprised that I come
into your room sometimes while you are having sex with your beloved to
point out your bare bottom.

  and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
  (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved.

 How could you have any idea what my internal state is Ravi?  What you
are trying to spin as a fascination with the whore intellect is just
me enjoying conversations on an internet conversation board. If you are
tying to present yourself to me as some sort of authority on human life
I am afraid I will have to decline your offer.  If you are trying to
condescend to me as if you are speaking from a state of enlightenment
that I am not in, again I decline to accept that relationship with you. 
People who run such numbers on strangers are just front'n.  You can look
that up in your gansta dictionary.

  It may sound
  routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
  intellectual deception.

 This is not the first time you have characterized my posting as
deception. But once again you have failed to offer the kind of specifics
that make this charge meaningful. You might take a lesson from Judy on
this.  She is able to point her finger at exactly what I have posted
that she disagrees with.  That opens up the conversation.

 The whole idea that you have to defend your beloved from someone like
me is absurd.  You haven't even made it clear what specific experience
you are talking about. All you have done is thrown out a lot of
metaphors designed for dramatic shock effect.  What you are defending
your beloved against is my interpretation that you are passing your
subjective experience through the filter of lots of imagination.  And an
above average need to present yourself as superior to other posters
here.

 I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi.  I am fanning that.



Yes I'm sincere in my love to my beloved and I do love to share that. It
might come across as special state of mind, condescending, derogatory,
awareness of other's state of mind, front'n, running numbers on
strangers, subjective, vague but I can't help it. You are spot on that
the only way I can express it is through metaphors designed for shock
effect and so guilty as charged.  But I am not looking for any
relationship with you or anyone else, like I said I am not looking for a
threesome. So you are absolutely spot on everything except for the
threesome part.
You and others might think you are not insulting my beloved but I
believe you are and I have to act accordingly to protect her. We can
agree to disagree.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@...
wrote:



 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  Steve, no I don't think I am stopping anyone from expressing their
 POV,
  I don't have any intention of doing so and I think its quite a
stretch
  of imagination to think I have the power to do so.

 I didn't mean to imply that you did.

 But my loyalty to my
  beloved remains and being a man I have to defend her by being
 aggressive
  and attacking. What do you suggest that I plead, beg and bargain?
Then
 I
  wouldn't be called a lover, I would be a cheap diplomat, a crooked
  businessman or a dirty politician - no thanks :-)


 I didn't mean to imply that you do.  But you seem to always be
spoiling
 for a fight, and you also seem to find offenses to the beloved
around
 many corners.   But maybe you just have a sharper intellect.  Or just
a
 mensch. (complimentary term)


Thanks for the clarification Steve. You don't have add a disclaimer
every time you reply like you are not making fun of me or mensch is a
complimentary term :-). I already know you love your beloved, may be you
have a few one night stands or flings but in general you are loyal :-).
So you can do nothing wrong in my eyes and you have never insulted the
beloved.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   snip
 I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi. I am fanning that.
  
   I like this.
 
  Thanks Steve.  Remember the discussions I had with Rory
  and Jim about their internal experiences?  We found a
  respectful place to discuss our different points of view.
  It took some time. Started off a bit rocky but we found
  our way together. They got a chance to articulate what
  they were experiencing and I felt heard about the
  perspective I have about these mental states. I learned
  a lot from it. That is what I'm shooting for here.

 A lofty goal. I wish you luck.


Go back to the first post I made on this list in May '10 Barry - you
were the first one to respond and I don't remember you trying to engage
me in a discussion. And now you wonder where I learned all the
tricks..LOL..you were a terrific role model for me the only difference
is that I defend my beloved and you defend your whore (intellect).

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:
 So you can do nothing wrong in my eyes and you have never insulted the
 beloved.

That's a relief (-:

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:
snip

  the only difference
 is that I defend my beloved and you defend your whore (intellect).

Folks, it's a good line.  May be the best we have all week.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 -- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@
wrote:
 
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  snip
I sense a spark of sincerity in you Ravi. I am fanning that.
 
  I like this.

 Thanks Steve.  Remember the discussions I had with Rory and Jim about
their internal experiences?  We found a respectful place to discuss our
different points of view.  It took some time.   Started off a bit rocky
but we found our way together.  They got a chance to articulate what
they were experiencing and I felt heard about the perspective I have
about these mental states.  I learned a lot from it.  That is what I'm
shooting for here.



I respect Jim and Rory, they might think its worthwhile to express the
singularity of heart to the multitudes of intellect (sorry for stealing
your beautiful expression Jim) I don't. It's their samskara and dharma
and I have mine.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@... wrote:


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter L Sutphen drpetersutphen@
wrote:
 
  Damn hammer!
 
  Peter


 But its the only tool I got, so I am in deep heat looking for an f'ing
nail to slam.


You clearly seem to have lot of infantile pains with hammers and nails,
I don't.

 
  On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:39 AM, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@
wrote:
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
wrote:
  
   So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
  
   The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
fooling anyone here either.
  
   Poor carpenter blames his tools.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@
wrote:
  
   Nice piece, Dude.
  
   Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
  
  
   Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for
others
   who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
plain
   English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better
or
   worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
fragrant.
  
   So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
spiritual
   list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
  
   The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it
isn't
   interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
disagree with
   if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
  
  
   Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full
of
   intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
have to
   use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
brevity.
   I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already
too
   fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
  
  
  
  
  
   
  
   To subscribe, send a message to:
   fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
  
   Or go to:
   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
   and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
  
  
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@... wrote:


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
need anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex
with my beloved :-)
 
  That may be so but you spend quite a bit of time here presenting
yourself as if you are in a special state of mind. And since you often
use my name in a derogatory way you should not be surprised that I come
into your room sometimes while you are having sex with your beloved to
point out your bare bottom.
 
   and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
   (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved.
 
  How could you have any idea what my internal state is Ravi?  What
you are trying to spin as a fascination with the whore intellect is
just me enjoying conversations on an internet conversation board. If you
are tying to present yourself to me as some sort of authority on human
life I am afraid I will have to decline your offer.  If you are trying
to condescend to me as if you are speaking from a state of enlightenment
that I am not in, again I decline to accept that relationship with you. 
People who run such numbers on strangers are just front'n.  You can look
that up in your gansta dictionary.
 
   It may sound
   routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote
of
   intellectual deception.
 
  This is not the first time you have characterized my posting as
deception. But once again you have failed to offer the kind of specifics
that make this charge meaningful. You might take a lesson from Judy on
this.  She is able to point her finger at exactly what I have posted
that she disagrees with.  That opens up the conversation.
 
  The whole idea that you have to defend your beloved from someone
like me is absurd.  You haven't even made it clear what specific
experience you are talking about. All you have done is thrown out a lot
of metaphors designed for dramatic shock effect.  What you are defending
your beloved against is my interpretation that you are passing your
subjective experience through the filter of lots of imagination.  And an
above average need to present yourself as superior to other posters
here.

 How about, I am nothing. Lower than the lowest. No different from dog
poo (or god poo). Ready and eager to help my self where ever I find me.
Accomplishing nothing. Having nothing. Doing nothing. No fortune or
fame. Nothing that makes me different or a standout. Eating dirt and
loving it. The world walks over me and I thrill to this awesome massage.
Season pass has expired. No where to go but where the winds blow my
sorry ass. Gratitude and praise for everything around me. No needs, no
drama, no seeking betterments and distinction. Just a lazy lump. Happy I
am, all in a new day.



You seem to have lot of fascination of how that nothing should act,
should behave, even what it should eat? Wow... :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

Dude, can you please explain what you mean with whoring the intellect? Use of 
the intellect is necessary as a means of discrimination. But there seems to be 
a particular way in which the intellect is used when you refer to it as 
'whoring'?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter L Sutphen drpetersutphen@
 wrote:
  
   Damn hammer!
  
   Peter
 
 
  But its the only tool I got, so I am in deep heat looking for an f'ing
 nail to slam.
 
 
 You clearly seem to have lot of infantile pains with hammers and nails,
 I don't.
 
  
   On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:39 AM, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@
 wrote:
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
 wrote:
   
So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
 relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
   
The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
 fooling anyone here either.
   
Poor carpenter blames his tools.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
 wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@
 wrote:
   
Nice piece, Dude.
   
Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
   
   
Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for
 others
who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
 plain
English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better
 or
worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
 fragrant.
   
So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
 spiritual
list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
   
The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it
 isn't
interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
 disagree with
if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
   
   
Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full
 of
intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
 have to
use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
 brevity.
I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already
 too
fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
   
   
   
   
   

   
To subscribe, send a message to:
fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
   
Or go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
   
   
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
  I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, 
  must be omnipresent, so if I'm to honor that, then 
  ordinary life has to have the deepest divinity available, 
  and the only missing element is my intent to see it or, 
  lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I can evolve a 
  mind capable of doing so.  
 
 Hear, hear. Well said.
 
  These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround 
  themselves in a cocoon of sacred relics, and thus perforce 
  are constantly stimulated by such objects to re-up their 
  commitment to place awareness on the divine, but the likes 
  of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of 
  penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep 
  silence about it which is the exact holiness these monks 
  seek.  
 
 Exactly. I just came back from taking my family out
 for dinner and then walking back along the lake and
 canals I live by at sunset. There has been nothing in 
 any of the official spiritual trips I have invested
 time and energy in that surpasses the sense of wonder
 and awe my own neighborhood inspired in me tonight.
 
 The monks strike me as searching desperately for the
 divine in an atmosphere that is nothing but. Like
 fish searching for this mythical water they've been
 told about by their holy fish shamans. :-)
 
  To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the 
  vine, and they're doing canned food.  We might not always 
  get what we want, but we get it fresh and tastier than 
  that fare from the dusty tomes.
 
 I just don't get the reverence for the old that
 some spiritual seekers have developed. It's as if
 they really believe that life way back when was
 more full of the absolute than life now. Talk about
 missing the point.

One gets the feeling that you think hierarchically,
and have fallen for the trap of believing that one
of these ways of life is higher or more evolved
than the other. I see them as merely two different
approaches, neither any higher or better than
the other, neither of any potentially greater benefit
to the spiritual seeker than the other.

horselaugh

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
   
Nice piece, Dude.
  
   Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
  Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.

 So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?

 The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't
interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.


Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You have to
use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for brevity.
I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special relationship 
with the creator of the universe, right?

The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't fooling 
anyone here either.  

Poor carpenter blames his tools.






 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:

 Nice piece, Dude.
   
Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
  
  
   Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
 who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
 English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
 worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
 
  So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
 list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
 
  The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't
 interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
 if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
 
 
 Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
 intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You have to
 use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for brevity.
 I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
 fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Peter L Sutphen]

Damn hammer!

Peter


On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:39 AM, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:
 
 So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special relationship 
 with the creator of the universe, right?
 
 The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't fooling 
 anyone here either.  
 
 Poor carpenter blames his tools.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
 Nice piece, Dude.
 
 Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
 Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
 who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
 English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
 worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
 
 So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
 list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
 
 The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't
 interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
 if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
 
 
 Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
 intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You have to
 use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for brevity.
 I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
 fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 To subscribe, send a message to:
 fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
 
 Or go to: 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
 and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

Hey Curtis, What do you identify as trollish behavior? I am curious because I 
was reading up on it (wiki-p), and the distinction appears to be a troll is 
someone making disruptive posts, in order to provoke an emotional reaction, vs. 
those participating in a current discussion, or presenting an idea for 
discussion. I didn't read Ravi's post as trollish. He states his ideas 
directly, but he is also willing to clarify and discuss them. 

On the other hand there is a practice by others here, where the intent is to 
proclaim something knowingly false, or distorted, in order to provoke those on 
the forum. The high minded justification appears to be that it is somehow 
tantric to create this kind of conflict, when all that is happening is those 
expressing things in this way are enjoying their intellect, posting such things 
seen as trollish as a means to prove to themselves again and again that they 
can express ideas. 

Perhaps that is the distinction between a troll post (exclusive) and a 
non-troll post - The troll post is posted purely for the delight of expressing 
an idea - it is all about the poster and the reactions he can elicit. The 
intent is not to have a discussion but rather provoke a response, which is then 
not responded to to form a discussion, but rather, enjoyed by the troll as the 
reflected rays of the troll post. It is all about the troll.

An inclusive post on the other hand is a comment on, or an initiation of, a 
discussion. Given that criteria, I'd characterize Ravi's post as inclusive and 
non-trollish, a comment on yours and Edg's discussion. What do you think?  

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
   
Nice piece, Dude. 
   
   Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
  
  
  Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others who 
  might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain English the 
  summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or worse than yours, 
  but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
 
 So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual list it 
 wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
 
 The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't 
 interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with if 
 you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
 
 
 
 
  
  
  
  


But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that 
we also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we 
mindfully have put into place?  Even the mundane is ritualized thereby. 
 I always have mustard with my hot dog just as much as these guys have 
to have a certain amount of candles lit for their hotdogish ceremony. 
 See?
   
   Sure like me never missing House even though it has sooo jumped the 
   shark.  We can try to give our lives routine. In my line of work that is 
   not too easy which is one of the things I dig about it.  I am challenged 
   by a completely different audience every show.  But the level of sameness 
   in their lives is exponentially higher.  When I was living in Maharishi's 
   approximation of that life my mind would focus on tiny differences to 
   give me some sense of non routine.  The bigger issue with monastic life 
   is that they never interact with some guy at the filling station who 
   snakes in front of you when you have been waiting in line for the air 
   hose for two cars.  
   

I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against change 
than these monks, only they get to claim they're routines are 
spiritually evolving them at a faster (fastest?) pace than ordinary 
life can do Edg. 
   
   I seriously doubt you are.  And you raised kids so you have automatically 
   lived a life of new shit coming at you that  kicks my life's surprises' 
   butt.


I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be 
omnipresent, so if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to have 
the deepest divinity available, and the only missing element is my 
intent to see it or, lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I can 
evolve a mind capable of doing so. 
   
   Very Thomas Merton.  I think that way too.


These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in a 
cocoon of sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly stimulated by 
such objects to re-up their commitment to place awareness on the divine,
   
   Is it really the divine of a bunch of ideas and words that aspire to 
   that?  I really think that this type of focus is totally overrated.
   
but the likes of you and I are out here winging it 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... wrote:

 Hey Curtis, What do you identify as trollish behavior? I am curious because 
 I was reading up on it (wiki-p), and the distinction appears to be a troll is 
 someone making disruptive posts, in order to provoke an emotional reaction, 
 vs. those participating in a current discussion, or presenting an idea for 
 discussion.

That's the one.

 I didn't read Ravi's post as trollish. He states his ideas directly, but he is 
also willing to clarify and discuss them. 

That is exactly what he refuses to do.  It is a consistent behavior. 

 
 On the other hand there is a practice by others here, where the intent is to 
 proclaim something knowingly false, or distorted, in order to provoke those 
 on the forum. The high minded justification appears to be that it is somehow 
 tantric to create this kind of conflict, when all that is happening is 
 those expressing things in this way are enjoying their intellect, posting 
 such things seen as trollish as a means to prove to themselves again and 
 again that they can express ideas. 

I take it case by case.  There are only a few posters I consider trollish here, 
incapable of conversation.  But it may be in the eye of the reader.  If I feel 
someone's post could be substituted with the phrase you are a poopy pants I 
suspect trollish intent.  I see this place as a vortex to enhance understanding 
between people with different points of view.  But I am on no pedestal.  In 
retrospect some of my replies to Doug might fall into the trollish category.

 
 Perhaps that is the distinction between a troll post (exclusive) and a 
 non-troll post - The troll post is posted purely for the delight of 
 expressing an idea - it is all about the poster and the reactions he can 
 elicit. The intent is not to have a discussion but rather provoke a response, 
 which is then not responded to to form a discussion, but rather, enjoyed by 
 the troll as the reflected rays of the troll post. It is all about the troll.

Wow, then I definitely owe Doug an apology.  Sorry buddy, I'll try to reign in 
my inner troll in the future.  

I make a distinction about expressing my feelings about an idea and actually 
aiming at a person.  If I say that I believe that the ideas of a god seems to 
have no solid basis, I am not being a troll for all those who believe it.  I am 
aiming at an idea and we should all be able to maintain healthy enough 
intellectual boundaries to know that it is not a statement about the holder of 
the idea.  Of course in the heat of discussion this line can get blurred.  In 
my experience here, my stating my opinion about ideas can often invoke a 
personal attack.  I think this is lame.  A few posters here are capable of 
disagreeing with me and telling me why.  Those are the people I respect here no 
matter how different our POV is on any topic.

 
 An inclusive post on the other hand is a comment on, or an initiation of, a 
 discussion. Given that criteria, I'd characterize Ravi's post as inclusive 
 and non-trollish, a comment on yours and Edg's discussion. What do you think? 

I still think it was trollish.  I asked him to enter into a more detailed 
discussion about what he disagreed with and his response was that he was above 
that kind of discussion.

I do appreciate your allowing me to reflect on my own behavior here Jim. This 
was a very productive, non trollish discussion for me, thanks. 


 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:

 Nice piece, Dude. 

Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
   
   
   Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others who 
   might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain English 
   the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or worse than 
   yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
  
  So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual list 
  it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
  
  The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't 
  interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with if 
  you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
  
  
  
  
   
   
   
   
 
 
 But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that 
 we also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we 
 mindfully have put into place?  Even the mundane is ritualized 
 thereby.  I always have mustard with my hot dog just as much as these 
 guys have to have a certain amount of candles lit for their 
 hotdogish ceremony.  See?

Sure like me never missing House even though it has 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

Thanks Curtis - non-trollish here too.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@ wrote:
 
  Hey Curtis, What do you identify as trollish behavior? I am curious 
  because I was reading up on it (wiki-p), and the distinction appears to be 
  a troll is someone making disruptive posts, in order to provoke an 
  emotional reaction, vs. those participating in a current discussion, or 
  presenting an idea for discussion.
 
 That's the one.
 
  I didn't read Ravi's post as trollish. He states his ideas directly, but he 
 is also willing to clarify and discuss them. 
 
 That is exactly what he refuses to do.  It is a consistent behavior. 
 
  
  On the other hand there is a practice by others here, where the intent is 
  to proclaim something knowingly false, or distorted, in order to provoke 
  those on the forum. The high minded justification appears to be that it is 
  somehow tantric to create this kind of conflict, when all that is 
  happening is those expressing things in this way are enjoying their 
  intellect, posting such things seen as trollish as a means to prove to 
  themselves again and again that they can express ideas. 
 
 I take it case by case.  There are only a few posters I consider trollish 
 here, incapable of conversation.  But it may be in the eye of the reader.  If 
 I feel someone's post could be substituted with the phrase you are a poopy 
 pants I suspect trollish intent.  I see this place as a vortex to enhance 
 understanding between people with different points of view.  But I am on no 
 pedestal.  In retrospect some of my replies to Doug might fall into the 
 trollish category.
 
  
  Perhaps that is the distinction between a troll post (exclusive) and a 
  non-troll post - The troll post is posted purely for the delight of 
  expressing an idea - it is all about the poster and the reactions he can 
  elicit. The intent is not to have a discussion but rather provoke a 
  response, which is then not responded to to form a discussion, but rather, 
  enjoyed by the troll as the reflected rays of the troll post. It is all 
  about the troll.
 
 Wow, then I definitely owe Doug an apology.  Sorry buddy, I'll try to reign 
 in my inner troll in the future.  
 
 I make a distinction about expressing my feelings about an idea and actually 
 aiming at a person.  If I say that I believe that the ideas of a god seems to 
 have no solid basis, I am not being a troll for all those who believe it.  I 
 am aiming at an idea and we should all be able to maintain healthy enough 
 intellectual boundaries to know that it is not a statement about the holder 
 of the idea.  Of course in the heat of discussion this line can get blurred.  
 In my experience here, my stating my opinion about ideas can often invoke a 
 personal attack.  I think this is lame.  A few posters here are capable of 
 disagreeing with me and telling me why.  Those are the people I respect here 
 no matter how different our POV is on any topic.
 
  
  An inclusive post on the other hand is a comment on, or an initiation of, a 
  discussion. Given that criteria, I'd characterize Ravi's post as inclusive 
  and non-trollish, a comment on yours and Edg's discussion. What do you 
  think? 
 
 I still think it was trollish.  I asked him to enter into a more detailed 
 discussion about what he disagreed with and his response was that he was 
 above that kind of discussion.
 
 I do appreciate your allowing me to reflect on my own behavior here Jim. This 
 was a very productive, non trollish discussion for me, thanks. 
 
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Nice piece, Dude. 
 
 Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.


Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others 
who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain 
English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or 
worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
   
   So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual 
   list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
   
   The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't 
   interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with 
   if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
   
   
   
   




  
  
  But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in 
  that we also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that 
  we mindfully have put into place?  Even the mundane is 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

Truth needs no acknowledgement, whereas lies have to be repeated over and over 
again 'cause so much has been invested in it :-). People who indulge mindlessly 
need constant reassurance, approval and acknowledgement - been there and done 
that.

The only person I looked to for acknowledgment last year was my beloved mother 
Ammachi but she was so compassionate and refused to play along, sure enough it 
hit me later that it was the game of the ego and I got suckered by it 
temporarily.

My beloved demands so much of my time, I'm in constant orgy with her. So one 
who is full of love finds little use of words, it's only for one who wants to 
constant deceive himself. You may fool yourself, but it's obvious to me you are 
not getting any from your beloved :-)

My behavior might come across as trollish, but I would say it's more divine 
mother gangsterish, I have clarified that several times in the past - no one 
has to buy it. It's my indulgence, the indulgence of a satiated lover.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
 So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special relationship 
 with the creator of the universe, right?
 
 The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't fooling 
 anyone here either.  
 
 Poor carpenter blames his tools.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Nice piece, Dude.

 Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
   
   
Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
  who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
  English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
  worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
  
   So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
  list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
  
   The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't
  interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
  if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
  
  
  Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
  intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You have to
  use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for brevity.
  I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
  fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 
 Truth needs no acknowledgement, whereas lies have to be repeated over and 
 over again 'cause so much has been invested in it :-). People who indulge 
 mindlessly need constant reassurance, approval and acknowledgement - been 
 there and done that.
 
 The only person I looked to for acknowledgment last year was my beloved 
 mother Ammachi but she was so compassionate and refused to play along, sure 
 enough it hit me later that it was the game of the ego and I got suckered by 
 it temporarily.
 
 My beloved demands so much of my time, I'm in constant orgy with her. So one 
 who is full of love finds little use of words, it's only for one who wants to 
 constant deceive himself. You may fool yourself, but it's obvious to me you 
 are not getting any from your beloved :-)
 
 My behavior might come across as trollish, but I would say it's more divine 
 mother gangsterish, I have clarified that several times in the past - no one 
 has to buy it. It's my indulgence, the indulgence of a satiated lover.

You post more than I do here Ravi so I don't know what you are talking about 
with the lies have to be repeated over and over  and you have little use for 
words pitch.  Obviously you feel the same desire to express yourself here as I 
do.  

And for using spiritual terms as an excuse for rude behavior... I can't think 
of a greater disservice to the ideas you claim to value.   You represent the 
worst use of spiritual ideas, as an excuse to act out your rude drama on 
strangers.

As far as being full of love, I believe it is you who is fooling himself.  You 
come across here as one of the least compassionate loving people in the group.  
The subtext is that because you have a special state of mind, you don't have to 
be considerate to others.  All that beloved nonsense is just a smoke screen.

But you have made some fans here, so party on with the Ravi is so much more 
whatever than anyone else routine.




 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
  So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special 
  relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
  
  The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't fooling 
  anyone here either.  
  
  Poor carpenter blames his tools.
  
  
  
  
  
  
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Nice piece, Dude.
 
  Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.


 Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others
   who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
   English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
   worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.
   
So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual
   list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
   
The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't
   interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with
   if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
   
   
   Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
   intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You have to
   use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for brevity.
   I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
   fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[WillyTex]

curtisdeltablues:
 In retrospect some of my replies to Doug might fall 
 into the trollish category.
 
Yep!

I just think he was full of it and that his premises 
about reality are bogus. - Curtis 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/274662

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willytex@... wrote:

 
 
 curtisdeltablues:
  In retrospect some of my replies to Doug might fall 
  into the trollish category.
  
 Yep!
 
 I just think he was full of it and that his premises 
 about reality are bogus. - Curtis 
 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/274662



That phrase refers to my opinion of Shankara. So this was a misleading example 
and not anywhere near being trollish.

I'm pretty sure you aren't the best one to pile on concerning trollish posts 
Richard.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[WillyTex]

Curtis:
 That phrase refers to my opinion of Shankara.

But, the thread was about Patanjali.

You said Patanjali was 'full of it' and his premises are 
'bogus'. Why would you be telling Buck that Patanjali 
was bogus if you wanted to dialog with Buck about Yoga? It
doesn't make any sense.

Fraqnkly, I expected more from a MUM philosophy major. I 
mean what, exactly, are Patanjali's premises? You seemed 
confused that Sankhya was the oldest Indian system and you
didn't seem to be able to cite any specifics about 
Patanjali. 

Buck:
O what a bunch of evil sophistry.
   
This thread reads as careful veiled spiritual hate.
The beating of poor old Patanjali by mob.
   
turquoiseb:
   One guy, having fun with an imaginary conversation
   with a possibly imaginary guy, is a *mob*? And you
   dare to use the word sophistry? :-)
  
Buck:
  Yep, inciting and intending to be incendiary. Oh sure 
  it is in mob and violent. You come on here demagogically 
  saying something is no good because you don't like it.
  Curtis joins in. Joe and SevenRay pile on and we got
  a regular FFL book and Patanjali-in-effigy strawman 
  burning by mob.
 
curtis:
 I just think he was full of it and that his premises about 
 reality are bogus...
 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/274662

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't need
anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex with my
beloved :-) and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
(intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved. It may sound
routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
intellectual deception.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:

 So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
relationship with the creator of the universe, right?

 The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
fooling anyone here either.

 Poor carpenter blames his tools.





 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@
wrote:
 
  Nice piece, Dude.

 Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
   
   
Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for
others
  who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
  English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or
  worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
fragrant.
  
   So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
spiritual
  list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
  
   The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it
isn't
  interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree
with
  if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
  
  
  Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full of
  intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
have to
  use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
brevity.
  I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already too
  fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:


 You post more than I do here Ravi so I don't know what you are talking
about with the lies have to be repeated over and over  and you have
little use for words pitch.  Obviously you feel the same desire to
express yourself here as I do.

 And for using spiritual terms as an excuse for rude behavior... I
can't think of a greater disservice to the ideas you claim to value.  
You represent the worst use of spiritual ideas, as an excuse to act out
your rude drama on strangers.


I think you have taken offense at my word lies - lies as in
accidental, the relative reality, the samsaara. So the number of posts
is irrelevant here, is the focus on accidental or essential is the key.
I find your and others deception equally rude and downright offensive.
 As far as being full of love, I believe it is you who is fooling
himself.  You come across here as one of the least compassionate loving
people in the group.  The subtext is that because you have a special
state of mind, you don't have to be considerate to others.  All that
beloved nonsense is just a smoke screen.

That's your opinion and feel free to wallow in it. From my perspective I
see people in this indulging their whores (intellect) and insulting my
beloved and I have to respond accordingly. May be you don't see it as
love and compassion but your ideas of what love and compassion seems
bullshit to me, compassion doesn't mean acting kind and nice in all
situations - that shows an insecure person who wants others approval, I
have no such pretenses.
 But you have made some fans here, so party on with the Ravi is so much
more whatever than anyone else routine.
I am always having a party with my beloved, I don't need any fans. You
can keep them they are all very impressed with the magic and charm you
weave with your words. Not everyone has an ability to cut through crap.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willytex@... wrote:

Yes you are right I meant Patanjali.  



 
 
 Curtis:
  That phrase refers to my opinion of Shankara.
 
 But, the thread was about Patanjali.
 
 You said Patanjali was 'full of it' and his premises are 
 'bogus'. Why would you be telling Buck that Patanjali 
 was bogus if you wanted to dialog with Buck about Yoga? It
 doesn't make any sense.
 
 Fraqnkly, I expected more from a MUM philosophy major. I 
 mean what, exactly, are Patanjali's premises? You seemed 
 confused that Sankhya was the oldest Indian system and you
 didn't seem to be able to cite any specifics about 
 Patanjali. 
 
 Buck:
 O what a bunch of evil sophistry.

 This thread reads as careful veiled spiritual hate.
 The beating of poor old Patanjali by mob.

 turquoiseb:
One guy, having fun with an imaginary conversation
with a possibly imaginary guy, is a *mob*? And you
dare to use the word sophistry? :-)
   
 Buck:
   Yep, inciting and intending to be incendiary. Oh sure 
   it is in mob and violent. You come on here demagogically 
   saying something is no good because you don't like it.
   Curtis joins in. Joe and SevenRay pile on and we got
   a regular FFL book and Patanjali-in-effigy strawman 
   burning by mob.
  
 curtis:
  I just think he was full of it and that his premises about 
  reality are bogus...
  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/274662
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

I guess the question I have Rav, is, are you going to stomp on every
infraction you see?  I liked Jim's challenge, if that's what you want to
call it.  It help get some clarification from Curtis and Ravi.  And
really Ravi, I like your perspective.  But I just wonder if you are
going to continue the full court press on what you view as
transgressions against your beloved.  (I promise I am not making fun of
you, but I am chuckling a little inside).  Or are you going to step back
a little and gives others a little leeway in expressing their opinion,
even if it strays far from what you see as as an honest POV.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
need
 anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex with my
 beloved :-) and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
 (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved. It may
sound
 routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
 intellectual deception.
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
 relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
 
  The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
 fooling anyone here either.
 
  Poor carpenter blames his tools.
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@
 wrote:
  
   Nice piece, Dude.
 
  Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.


 Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for
 others
   who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
   English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better
or
   worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
 fragrant.
   
So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
 spiritual
   list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?
   
The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it
 isn't
   interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree
 with
   if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
   
   
   Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full
of
   intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
 have to
   use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
 brevity.
   I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already
too
   fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

With Ravi, he is a bhakti, or so he appears, as he expresses his Eastern mind 
to the West that way. Let's face it, big difference (at least straddling the 
two worlds during my life so far, that is my impression). So when he talks 
about his particular imagery, it is singular. How can the heart hold anything 
but one? And Eastern expression often carries the full emotion of the heart so 
it is more substantial and provocative than a simple idea. 

I get it without thinking about it, because there is nothing to think about in 
the heart. Once it locks in, game over, only it needs the precision of the 
intellect to know which game it is playing. So Ravi's comments may appear a lot 
more emotional and dramatic than the drier western expression, though if you 
see them purely from the heart, they are often as sensible and full of 
knowledge as the well thought-out logic from the west. 

Which is not to say the two are mutually exclusive, however the differences in 
expression, particularly in spiritual terms, which have a lot of wiggle room to 
begin with anyway, can cause misinterpretations.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote:

 
 
 I guess the question I have Rav, is, are you going to stomp on every
 infraction you see?  I liked Jim's challenge, if that's what you want to
 call it.  It help get some clarification from Curtis and Ravi.  And
 really Ravi, I like your perspective.  But I just wonder if you are
 going to continue the full court press on what you view as
 transgressions against your beloved.  (I promise I am not making fun of
 you, but I am chuckling a little inside).  Or are you going to step back
 a little and gives others a little leeway in expressing their opinion,
 even if it strays far from what you see as as an honest POV.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
  Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
 need
  anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex with my
  beloved :-) and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
  (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved. It may
 sound
  routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote of
  intellectual deception.
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
  relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
  
   The little routine that you are above the whore intellect isn't
  fooling anyone here either.
  
   Poor carpenter blames his tools.
  
  
  
  
  
   
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@
  wrote:
   
Nice piece, Dude.
  
   Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
  Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for
  others
who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain
English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better
 or
worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
  fragrant.

 So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
  spiritual
list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?

 The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it
  isn't
interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree
  with
if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.


Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how full
 of
intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day? You
  have to
use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that for
  brevity.
I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are already
 too
fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.
   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@...
wrote:

 With Ravi, he is a bhakti, or so he appears, as he expresses his
Eastern mind to the West that way. Let's face it, big difference (at
least straddling the two worlds during my life so far, that is my
impression). So when he talks about his particular imagery, it is
singular. How can the heart hold anything but one? And Eastern
expression often carries the full emotion of the heart so it is more
substantial and provocative than a simple idea.
I admit.  That imagery resonates with me.  Expecially the sexual
connotations.
 I get it without thinking about it, because there is nothing to think
about in the heart. Once it locks in, game over, only it needs the
precision of the intellect to know which game it is playing. So Ravi's
comments may appear a lot more emotional and dramatic than the drier
western expression, though if you see them purely from the heart, they
are often as sensible and full of knowledge as the well thought-out
logic from the west.
Right.  I get that as well.
 Which is not to say the two are mutually exclusive, however the
differences in expression, particularly in spiritual terms, which have a
lot of wiggle room to begin with anyway, can cause misinterpretations.
It just doesn't leave much room for a discussion.  But as you say, he
gives no quarter when it comes to his  beloved .  But it is sort of
the same retort time and time again.
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@
wrote:
 
 
 
  I guess the question I have Rav, is, are you going to stomp on every
  infraction you see? I liked Jim's challenge, if that's what you want
to
  call it. It help get some clarification from Curtis and Ravi. And
  really Ravi, I like your perspective. But I just wonder if you are
  going to continue the full court press on what you view as
  transgressions against your beloved. (I promise I am not making fun
of
  you, but I am chuckling a little inside). Or are you going to step
back
  a little and gives others a little leeway in expressing their
opinion,
  even if it strays far from what you see as as an honest POV.
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
  
   Let's try it again - enlightenment is not a three some, so I don't
  need
   anyone's acknowledgement or participation while I'm having sex
with my
   beloved :-) and I'm saying end the fascination with the whore
   (intellect) and chose the blissful orgasm with the beloved. It may
  sound
   routine and trollish to you but it's no worse than than your rote
of
   intellectual deception.
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
wrote:
   
So your beef with me is that I don't buy that you have a special
   relationship with the creator of the universe, right?
   
The little routine that you are above the whore intellect
isn't
   fooling anyone here either.
   
Poor carpenter blames his tools.
   
   
   
   
   


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung
no_reply@
   wrote:

 Nice piece, Dude.
   
Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
  
  
   Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up
for
   others
 who might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in
plain
 English the summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any
better
  or
 worse than yours, but your shit stinks and mine's amazingly
   fragrant.
 
  So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a
   spiritual
 list it wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish
behavior?
 
  The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi. It isn't new, and it
   isn't
 interesting. Jump into the deep end and discuss what you
disagree
   with
 if you want to become more than a troll interloper here.
 
 
 Very funny Curtis, that you can't even see the pun shows how
full
  of
 intellectual garbage you are or may be you snort TM all day?
You
   have to
 use 1000 words whereas I just need one sentence, how's that
for
   brevity.
 I'm not here to indulge your whore(intellect) - you are
already
  too
 fascinated with it. Tough luck pal.

   
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:



 But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel
as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being
open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for
dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small
mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me to
respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are in
collusion in a we state it so it is so game.
Wow..And you think the material life is not dishonest, slippery and
collusion in a we state it so it is so game - the endless rut of
commute, work, family, school, game time, music time, gym, yoga class -
the promise of success, the American dream, watch TV, happiness lies in
Abilify, or a new Plastic surgery, new car or some other toy or that
happiness lies in looking young, keeping up with Joneses, just the
maddening compulsion to act is dizzying. So you think its freedom to
indulge in material life but some kind of servitude to choose a monastic
life?
Monastic life is not the opposite of material life. The opposite of
indulging in the material world is renouncing it as in suicide.

 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on
maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass
bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of
spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.  Not even letting
your small boss get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket.
(while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a life
full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we
were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was the
solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the epistemological
tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it by
the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit
so nicely, purfectly.

What makes you think everyone or people at this place are deciding to
put all eggs in the same basket. I never did, I was always open to new
ideas. I was involved with Ammachi and was reading Osho extensively. How
does indulging in material life not putting all eggs in same basket?
You just seem to be projecting your cultist mindset which doesn't seem
to match up with the majority people I meet.

 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really important
things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a bit
more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a
relly in my reaction to people who get into groups and decide
they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
nearly as clever as we think we are.
So you think everyone goes into spiritual life with already made up
answers. Most of them I meet are eager for the answers. Again you seem
to be describing your cult-ish mindset of starting with irrefutable
truths. The Gurus I have read seem to state the opposite.
Are you sure you are not projecting your failures on to every group you
see? What's cleverness got to do with spiritual life - I rate open
mindedness as one of the most important attributes.

 It is software bug that we need to respect more if our goal is to go
beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have all decided WHATEVER and so we are
all going on a lifetime sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we
are sure this is what's up.  Fer relll.

So a goal of going beyond is unreal - how so? May be you equate going
beyond as renouncing the world, renouncing the body, renouncing what?
That doesn't sound right. I have been associated with groups and none of
the going beyond involved giving up my family, giving up my job - what
gives?
 And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great
impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open to
where their life leads them.  They may actually believe that they are
open-minded.  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their
openness is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat into the big old
ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus thing.

But you constantly indulge in the material life and you so damn sure it
will provide you and open deck and the real happiness and not mindless
rut and monotony? You have got be kidding me 'bro.
 I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully regulated
life that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that some
people are really not capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe
environment is the best place for them.

 But I would rather take the bitter pill of 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@... wrote:

 Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told
everyone to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these
external forms of spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to be
born. Many, of course, get stuck in the external form seemingly forever.
Like those infamous dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who
have dedicated their lives to an external form of spirituality that
apparently, for them, has never transcended the form. Forms are the
boats that take you across. But once you get close to the other shore
you can just jump in and swim the rest of the way...or you could ride it
right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is clear, you leave
the friggin' boat behind!

Yeah you leave *YOUR* friggin' boat behind, Curtis was on a boat, he
abandoned his boat and jumped on to a nearby boat and after reaching the
shore now tells tall tales about a friggin' boat that he has left behind
!!! That the boat is stolen and is not his friggin' boat can be
carefully discerned from his writings.




 --- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

  From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@...
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
  I had such a charming time with the
  Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
  continued an appreciation for their alternative
  lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
  tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
  certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
  imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
  of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
  today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
  used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
 
  But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
  Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
  had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
  terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
  what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
  going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
  fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
  their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
  dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
  state it so it is so game.
 
  When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
  fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
  guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
  you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
  sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
  get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
  went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
  into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
  in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
  the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
  it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
  the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
  epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
  taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
  pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
  nicely, purfectly.
 
  I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.
  Really important things.  Things I had believed were
  irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my
  dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my
  reaction to people who get into groups and decide they know
  how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
  and beyond what I now have accepted is the human
  condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we
  are.  It is software bug that we need to respect more
  if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
  all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime
  sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure
  this is what's up.  Fer relll.
 
  And if you sat down with these guys they would give you
  some great impression of humility and a rap about how they
  are innocent and open to where their life leads them.
  They may actually believe that they are open-minded.
  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness
  is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
  rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat
  into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus
  thing.
 
  I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a
  carefully regulated life that had its slightly mind numbing
  charms.  And I know that some people are really not
  capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe
  environment is the best place for them.
 
  But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have
  life all figured out over their lives full of being busy
  being

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@...
wrote:

 Years ago, I heard that the way to find God was to quit looking for
Him.

But you did look for him yeah? You can't give it up in the middle or not
even bother searching and then read about a person called Jim who said
on FFL that the best way to find God is to quit looking for him and then
declare it to be the truth. It has to be your search, your God, and YOUR
quitting of your search and God. Otherwise it's just intellectual
deception a la Curtis or Barry.


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
 
  Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told
everyone to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these
external forms of spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to be
born. Many, of course, get stuck in the external form seemingly forever.
Like those infamous dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who
have dedicated their lives to an external form of spirituality that
apparently, for them, has never transcended the form. Forms are the
boats that take you across. But once you get close to the other shore
you can just jump in and swim the rest of the way...or you could ride it
right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is clear, you leave
the friggin' boat behind!
 
  --- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
   From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@
   Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
   To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
   Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
   I had such a charming time with the
   Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
   continued an appreciation for their alternative
   lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
   tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
   certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
   imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
   of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
   today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
   used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
  
   But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
   Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
   had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
   terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
   what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
   going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
   fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
   their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
   dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
   state it so it is so game.
  
   When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
   fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
   guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
   you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
   sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
   get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
   went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
   into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
   in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
   the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
   it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
   the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
   epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
   taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
   pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
   nicely, purfectly.
  
   I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.
   Really important things.  Things I had believed were
   irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my
   dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my
   reaction to people who get into groups and decide they know
   how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
   and beyond what I now have accepted is the human
   condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we
   are.  It is software bug that we need to respect more
   if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
   all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime
   sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure
   this is what's up.  Fer relll.
  
   And if you sat down with these guys they would give you
   some great impression of humility and a rap about how they
   are innocent and open to where their life leads them.
   They may actually believe that they are open-minded.
   But they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness
   is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
   rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat
   into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus
   thing.
  
   I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a
   carefully regulated life that had its slightly mind

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
 
  Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told
 everyone to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these
 external forms of spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to
be
 born. Many, of course, get stuck in the external form seemingly
forever.
 Like those infamous dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who
 have dedicated their lives to an external form of spirituality that
 apparently, for them, has never transcended the form. Forms are the
 boats that take you across. But once you get close to the other shore
 you can just jump in and swim the rest of the way...or you could ride
it
 right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is clear, you leave
 the friggin' boat behind!
 
 Yeah you leave *YOUR* friggin' boat behind, Curtis was on a boat, he
 abandoned his boat and jumped on to a nearby boat and after reaching
the
 shore now tells tall tales about a friggin' boat that he has left
behind
 !!! That the boat is stolen and is not his friggin' boat can be
 carefully discerned from his writings.

More details in my poor imitation Barry style - Curtis was on a boat
Monastic Kult SS with a defective engine and no manufacturer's Guide, 
he didn't even care to get the basic training which could have possibly
led to success with hard work in spite of a defective boat.
He soon runs into trouble, he notices a boat called Tantra Power SS,
abandons his boat and plans a powerful stealthy jump and succeeds. He is
elated. He hides, drinks stolen beer and eats fish the rest of the way,
sleeps, smokes and has a good time in general - well the boat is big and
plenty of places to hide from the real owner of the boat.
Curtis reaches shore, kills the real owner just before docking, steals
all his notes and declares himself the real owner of Tantra Power  SS.
He becomes famous in the town for destroying a beautiful boat. He
declares the boat to be useless now since he has reached the
destination, He is praised as one of the peers, he gives regular talks
from the stolen notes of the real owner of the Tantra Power SS. He
also gets paid as a consultant to give powerful captivating and
motivating talks against the evils of the manufacturers, suppliers and
users of Monastic Kult SS. He is famous, revered and admired by people
for his oratorical skills.
He rubs shoulders with the elite of the Enlightened Boat Discarders
Inc and is on the Executive committee.





  --- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
   From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@
   Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
   To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
   Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
   I had such a charming time with the
   Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
   continued an appreciation for their alternative
   lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
   tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
   certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
   imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
   of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
   today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
   used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
  
   But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
   Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
   had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
   terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
   what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
   going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
   fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
   their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
   dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
   state it so it is so game.
  
   When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
   fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
   guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
   you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
   sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
   get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
   went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
   into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
   in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
   the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
   it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
   the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
   epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
   taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
   pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
   nicely, purfectly.
  
   I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.
   Really important things.  Things I had believed were

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:


 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote:
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
  
   Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha
told
  everyone to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these
  external forms of spirituality must die for authentic spirituality
to
 be
  born. Many, of course, get stuck in the external form seemingly
 forever.
  Like those infamous dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!)
who
  have dedicated their lives to an external form of spirituality that
  apparently, for them, has never transcended the form. Forms are the
  boats that take you across. But once you get close to the other
shore
  you can just jump in and swim the rest of the way...or you could
ride
 it
  right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is clear, you
leave
  the friggin' boat behind!
  
  Yeah you leave *YOUR* friggin' boat behind, Curtis was on a boat, he
  abandoned his boat and jumped on to a nearby boat and after reaching
 the
  shore now tells tall tales about a friggin' boat that he has left
 behind
  !!! That the boat is stolen and is not his friggin' boat can be
  carefully discerned from his writings.
 
 More details in my poor imitation Barry style - Curtis was on a boat
 Monastic Kult SS with a defective engine and no manufacturer's
Guide,
 he didn't even care to get the basic training which could have
possibly
 led to success with hard work in spite of a defective boat.
 He soon runs into trouble, he notices a boat called Tantra Power SS,
 abandons his boat and plans a powerful stealthy jump and succeeds. He
is
 elated. He hides, drinks stolen beer and eats fish the rest of the
way,
 sleeps, smokes and has a good time in general - well the boat is big
and
 plenty of places to hide from the real owner of the boat.
 Curtis reaches shore, kills the real owner just before docking, steals
 all his notes and declares himself the real owner of Tantra Power 
SS.
 He becomes famous in the town for destroying a beautiful boat. He
 declares the boat to be useless now since he has reached the
 destination, He is praised as one of the peers, he gives regular talks
 from the stolen notes of the real owner of the Tantra Power SS. He
 also gets paid as a consultant to give powerful captivating and
 motivating talks against the evils of the manufacturers, suppliers and
 users of Monastic Kult SS. He is famous, revered and admired by
people
 for his oratorical skills.
 He rubs shoulders with the elite of the Enlightened Boat Discarders
 Inc and is on the Executive committee.



And the divers from this place notice a man drowning; they heroically
rescued the battered and bruised man. When questioned he said his name
was Barry Wright and he was boat hopping..:-), and that he slipped and
fell while trying to balance between two boats. Now the town folk
randomly run into Barry who is often drunk, yelling and cursing at
people discussing boats - that boats didn't exist and that its all a
figment of their imagination. He is undergoing therapy with Curtis, the
famous owner of the Tantra Power SS. Barry ends being in awe of Curtis
and he has great love and admiration for him.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

This essay was for Vaj to consider if he wished to read it.

In his previous comments, he brought up the theurgy of Iamblichus and
it's parallelism with Orthodox liturgy, like that briefly shown on the
60-Minutes program. The essay included in the reply addresses some of
these issues but is not casual reading.



No reason to become WTF-ish about it since it is only relevant for those
with some familiarity with the subject.


**


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@...
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:

Abstract: Until recently, Neoplatonic theurgy has been defined by
scholars as an attempt to manipulate the gods through ritual, and its
influence in late antique Platonic circles has been interpreted as
evidence for the decline of Greek rationality caused in large part by
the teachings of the fourth-century Syrian Platonist, Iamblichus.
Although scholarly research on theurgy and Iamblichus has now
corrected these misunderstandings, they have left their mark on related
areas of research: a notable example is the role of theurgy in the
Christian liturgy of Dionysius the Areopagite.

 WTF!

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Vaj]

On Apr 27, 2011, at 3:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:


Huh?? What theoretical case?


That idea that there can in principle be no proof or reasons to  
support a belief in life after death.



Conscious dying is practiced is a number of yogic traditions. All  
involve learning how to die BEFORE death.


The bottom line is you've got to get to the point where consciousness  
separates from the body.


It sounds to me like you might hold a taboo against subjectivity. The  
level of refinement of subjective attention is such that by the time  
you refine attention to the level that body separates from  
consciousness, your attention will be so crystal clear and dependable  
(or pliable) that you'll actually be able to personally replicate the  
standard experiential signs of that separation. The important thing  
to appreciate is that these subjective signs have been replicated  
time after time, for many, many years, always by people who have  
refined their inner telescope to be the most reliable of instruments.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:


 On Apr 27, 2011, at 3:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

  Huh?? What theoretical case?
 
  That idea that there can in principle be no proof or reasons to
  support a belief in life after death.


 Conscious dying is practiced is a number of yogic traditions. All
 involve learning how to die BEFORE death.

 The bottom line is you've got to get to the point where consciousness
 separates from the body.

 It sounds to me like you might hold a taboo against subjectivity.

That's what I'm trying to figure out listening to Curtis.  Why this
apparent (at least) taboo against subjectivity?  How do you just let
life wash over you, and seem to hold such a bias against subjectivity.
Probably I am missing some nuance.  But sometimes I think the Curtis
position comes off as a rationalist   POV.  Nothing wrong with that,
but it never inspired me much.  On the other hand, Curtis' life seems
pretty rich and full, and it sounds like he is having a good time and
making a unique and worthwhile contribution.  (my apologies for not
directing this inquiry directly to Curtis, but doing so indirectly)



  The
 level of refinement of subjective attention is such that by the time
 you refine attention to the level that body separates from
 consciousness, your attention will be so crystal clear and dependable
 (or pliable) that you'll actually be able to personally replicate the
 standard experiential signs of that separation. The important thing
 to appreciate is that these subjective signs have been replicated
 time after time, for many, many years, always by people who have
 refined their inner telescope to be the most reliable of
instruments.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
 
  On Apr 27, 2011, at 3:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
 
   Huh?? What theoretical case?
  
   That idea that there can in principle be no proof or reasons to
   support a belief in life after death.
 
 
  Conscious dying is practiced is a number of yogic traditions. All
  involve learning how to die BEFORE death.
 
  The bottom line is you've got to get to the point where consciousness
  separates from the body.
 
  It sounds to me like you might hold a taboo against subjectivity.
 
 That's what I'm trying to figure out listening to Curtis.  Why this
 apparent (at least) taboo against subjectivity? 

I don't understand how you could have gotten this impression.  As a creative 
person I value my subjectivity very highly.  I spend time cultivating its 
abilities as with meditation.  I guess if I was going to draw a line it would 
be that I don't mistake my inner creative process as a standalone proof system. 
 Take this idea of dying before leaving the body.  Am I the only one who would 
like to see a couple of external verifications of this state of so called 
death?  An EEG and EKG perhaps.  Hell lets put the person in a CAT scan and 
look at what is going on realtime.  But I am not likely to believe that their 
internal state was similar to actual death because they said it felt like it 
was.

 How do you just let
 life wash over you, and seem to hold such a bias against subjectivity.

I don't have a bias.  I have information about its limits.


 Probably I am missing some nuance.  But sometimes I think the Curtis
 position comes off as a rationalist   POV. 

Philosophically I am probably more empiricist than rationalist. But that has 
its limits too.  I am all for using all our mental tools to discover more about 
ourselves and the world.  But we have learned a lot about our cognitive limits, 
what we suck at intellectually as a species.  I see that much of this knowledge 
is ignored in many spiritual traditions.  They act as it we have an infallible 
internal ability to know things.  I don't buy that.

 Nothing wrong with that,
 but it never inspired me much.  On the other hand, Curtis' life seems
 pretty rich and full, and it sounds like he is having a good time and
 making a unique and worthwhile contribution.  (my apologies for not
 directing this inquiry directly to Curtis, but doing so indirectly)

Much appreciated Steve.  I am a niche player in life.  I found my tiny place in 
the world that suits me.  I am making no grand proclamations about my knowledge 
or my mental abilities. I am conformable with knowing their limits and my human 
tendency to be full of shit and be unable to see it. That awareness of our 
limits extends to the claims of others.  



 
 
 
   The
  level of refinement of subjective attention is such that by the time
  you refine attention to the level that body separates from
  consciousness, your attention will be so crystal clear and dependable
  (or pliable) that you'll actually be able to personally replicate the
  standard experiential signs of that separation. The important thing
  to appreciate is that these subjective signs have been replicated
  time after time, for many, many years, always by people who have
  refined their inner telescope to be the most reliable of
 instruments.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:

 
 You're taking this too personally and so you see it as a personal
 put-down.

snip

Getting a world infatuated person
 to understand this point is just a waste of time. It's like trying
 to teach chess to a monkey.

I am neither world infatuated nor a monkey.  And their mental development 
as monks is not so lofty that their understanding compared to mine could be 
described that way.  I know that from hanging out with them. If you have some 
idea that these Athos monks are a completely different form of human than ones 
I could have interacted with, I would like to know how you acquired that 
belief.  Did you hang out with them on Athos?

The monks I hung out with were much more like us than you seem to imagine.  I 
stayed with the most cloistered Christian Monks in the US and they were very 
diverse.  Some intellectual, some introverts some extroverts, some gay some 
strait. (Yes you can NOT have sex with either sex!)  One quality they had was 
that they were relentlessly social in a way I am not.  You have to be to live 
that way.  They are stuck in each other's faces with very little privacy.  I 
spend a thousand times more time alone.  They get screened pretty carefully so 
I suspect they might have a higher level of mental health than the average 
population.  Any flaw shows up fast in that intense interactive environment. 
The whole thing is a lot more ordinary than outsiders imagine.  The idea that 
the are not world infatuated is nonsense.  They are just as into their little 
world as we are in ours.  And focusing your mind on different words doesn't 
make you some kind of special liberated being.  If anything they are so locked 
into their daily routines they have much more attachment to the details of 
their life than I do.  They cant miss a bell in their busy, busy lives. But it 
is a tiny self-contained world.  It suits them, but not me.  I prefer to seek 
out people who will think completely differently from me.  That is how I grow.


I also wasn't saying they were really stupid.  I was commenting on the fact 
that they have collectively defined reality and keep themselves from having the 
world show them that they might not actually have life all figured out. The 
order on the show looked busier than a soccer mom with two kids in the playoffs 
in their chosen sports.  It seemed to me to be the opposite of the kind of life 
I would associate with being knowledgeable about life.

When I was a sidha at sidhalnd for 3 years it was exactly like the few years 
they have them try out on Athos to see if the life suited them.  Most of the 
guys I lived with went on to Purusha.  I viewed it every bit as seriously as 
any of their initiates.  So it wasn't a retreat, it was a lifestyle choice I 
was trying.  Just like any new guy on Athos. And none of the Christian Abbots 
are Sunnyasin's either.  They are just guys who have chosen a certain way of 
life. Have you read Thomas Merton?  He gives a very realistic vision of this 
lifestyle.

And of course I am aware that monks wouldn't care what I think about them.  The 
feeling is mutual. 

So tell me about your experiences with monks.   







 I may be acerbic in my comments but I'm not denigrating
 your experience doing long retreats of siddhi practice as such. I just
 don't believe it to be comparable but rather see it as a form of
 spiritual retreat of indeterminate kind.
 
 You could not take sannyasa from MMY because he wasn't a sannyasin
 himself. However, I presume that you went upon retreat to spur your
 consciousness and/or whatever else you thought about its value.
 Buddhists do the same thing, actually taking and leaving the
 habit for various training and retreating purposes.
 
 Orthodox monasticism is not like that. It is a lifetime decision that
 cannot be rescinded unless one leaves the Orthodox church entirely. That
 way of doing it came from the old days when you couldn't just leave
 your place in the family and then come back a few years later and say
 I didn't really mean it. Now give it back.
 
 The Orthodox are very hard-core believers. They rightly point out that
 they are the original Christian church, unbroken in lineage, belief and
 practice. They are very Platonic in many ways, especially in using
 beauty as an approach to the darkness of God and in cultivating the
 nous-intelligence as it descends into the heart to stand fast
 before the gaze of God.
 
 You may see it as styoopid, like Turqy, but no men or women monastics 
 care what we think about such things. Getting a world infatuated person
 to understand this point is just a waste of time. It's like trying
 to teach chess to a monkey.
 
 ***
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  Then what are you basing your opinions on? If my experience of that
 lifestyle is exempt because you are 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Apr 27, 2011, at 3:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
 
  Huh?? What theoretical case?
 
  That idea that there can in principle be no proof or reasons to  
  support a belief in life after death.
 
 
 Conscious dying is practiced is a number of yogic traditions. All  
 involve learning how to die BEFORE death.
 
 The bottom line is you've got to get to the point where consciousness  
 separates from the body.

This is a claim that could be externally verified.  I would be interested to 
see if it had.




 
 It sounds to me like you might hold a taboo against subjectivity. The  
 level of refinement of subjective attention is such that by the time  
 you refine attention to the level that body separates from  
 consciousness, your attention will be so crystal clear and dependable  
 (or pliable) that you'll actually be able to personally replicate the  
 standard experiential signs of that separation. The important thing  
 to appreciate is that these subjective signs have been replicated  
 time after time, for many, many years, always by people who have  
 refined their inner telescope to be the most reliable of instruments.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Vaj]

On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:02 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:



On Apr 27, 2011, at 3:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:


Huh?? What theoretical case?


That idea that there can in principle be no proof or reasons to
support a belief in life after death.



Conscious dying is practiced is a number of yogic traditions. All
involve learning how to die BEFORE death.

The bottom line is you've got to get to the point where consciousness
separates from the body.


This is a claim that could be externally verified.  I would be  
interested to see if it had.



It is being worked on.

As we speak, there is a network of neuroscientists worldwide, who are  
waiting for the moment when certain advanced meditation practitioners  
physically die, during which time they will investigated scientifically.


Since it's now known that during deep sleep each person produces a  
kind of unique baseline EEG signature, EEG fingerprints are being  
taken of advanced practitioners so when they reincarnate  
intentionally into a new body, they'll be able to compare the new  
baseline EEG. This could potentially constitute external validation  
for conscious reincarnation.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[merudanda]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@... wrote:

But one thing is clear, you leave the friggin' boat behind!

What Will It Take For You To Step Out Of The Boat?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
jstein@ wrote:
snip
Not sure where I asked you to assume a belief 
with no good reason. All I'm recommending is that
you have the humility to acknowledge uncertainty,
including uncertainty as to whether (as I said)
it makes sense to require proof in certain cases
(such as what happens after death).
   
   I clarified that proof needs to be extended to the 
   reasons for believing it in some cases.  You are
   using your imagination to make up a theoretical case
   that does not exist in the arguments for such beliefs.
  
  Huh?? What theoretical case?
 
 That idea that there can in principle be no proof or
 reasons to support a belief in life after death.

I never made such a case, Curtis. Here's what I said:

 For all you know,
 the impossibility of providing proof to you while you're
 alive may be an integral part of the deal.

That was in response to this from you:

  I can think of ways that life after death could be proven
  without actually dying. Communicating with one of them in
  a convincing way is an obvious way. But the method of
  that proof is up to the people declaring it.

All I'm making a case for is *uncertainty* as to whether
such proof is possible in principle. It's the old 
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence aphorism.
And I'm talking specifically about *proof*, not reasons. 

snip
  Let me put it this way: Are you *certain* that if 
  life after death were a fact, it would be possible
  for a dead person to communicate with you?
 
 No I am not certain.  But I am not the one proposing 
 the idea.  It is up to them to make their case. But just 
 because I can't be certain of such things doesn't make 
 their case any more likely.  I am not an absolute 
 skeptic. I rate ideas on merit.  Just because I can't be 
 sure of everything doesn't mean I can be confident of 
 nothing. One of the things I am confident about is the 
 lack of reasons to support my belief in an afterlife.  I 
 could be wrong.  
 
  Or let's just say, do you *believe* that's the case? 
  If so, what are your reasons for that belief?
 
 I don't see why in principle you couldn't set up a test
 that would make a belief in an afterlife more likely.

You can set up tests for just about anything. The question
is, in this case, will negative results tell you what you
want to know? Maybe negative results will tell you only
that communication from the dead to the living is 
impossible, not that there's no afterlife.

It was your initial humble pie remark that I was aiming
at. It seemed from the context that the humble pie referred
to your having decided that your past beliefs had been
mistaken. I was suggesting that the humble pie might also
include an acknowledgment that maybe those beliefs were
*valid* after all. The humble pie should work both ways,
in other words--humility that you had been too certain
that the beliefs were valid, and humility about your
current conviction that they *weren't* valid.

snip
   In any case I have not come across any spiritual 
   teaching that has made this case about beliefs about
   life after death. I would welcome any examples.

I think if you were to tell someone who believed in life
after death that you required ironclad empirical proof,
they would say that it's ultimately a matter of faith.

snip
   but we don't live all of our life with no 
   intellectual confidence.  We don't say that because
   I can imagine a situation in language (it doesn't
   make sense to require reasons to believe something
   about after death) that therefore it has equal weight
   to all other ideas and beliefs we hold.  You have to
   make a case for it.
  
  Did I say it doesn't make sense to require reasons to
  believe something about after death?
 
 I am just making my case for my POV.  Everything does 
 not have to do with something you said.

If it didn't refer to something you thought I'd said, it's
a non sequitur. If it did refer to something you thought
I'd said, it was a straw man.

IOW, I agree with you. Of course it doesn't have equal
weight. Again, all I'm on about is the need to acknowledge
uncertainty.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

Yeah, this was in the context of Peter's comment that the means has to be 
transcended. Once God seduced me I was a goner. I remembered the phrase because 
at the time, I was seeking very much in my head and heart and the pressure was 
unrelenting - of course I didn't understand this was all being caused by me. 

If someone doesn't want to experience God, or declares Him absent, it is all on 
the basis of experience. We can always doubt our subjective experiences, but 
what is the point, unless the object is to somehow wrest our attachment from 
that experience? If we are not attached then an experience of God can be 
enjoyed for what it is, and then we continue to chop wood and carry water. 

Only when we are fighting against the attachment of the experience, thereby 
creating another attachment to the desire for non-attachment (lol), do we 
question and argue about the existence of God. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@
 wrote:
 
  Years ago, I heard that the way to find God was to quit looking for
 Him.
 
 But you did look for him yeah? You can't give it up in the middle or not
 even bother searching and then read about a person called Jim who said
 on FFL that the best way to find God is to quit looking for him and then
 declare it to be the truth. It has to be your search, your God, and YOUR
 quitting of your search and God. Otherwise it's just intellectual
 deception a la Curtis or Barry.
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote:
  
   Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told
 everyone to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these
 external forms of spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to be
 born. Many, of course, get stuck in the external form seemingly forever.
 Like those infamous dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who
 have dedicated their lives to an external form of spirituality that
 apparently, for them, has never transcended the form. Forms are the
 boats that take you across. But once you get close to the other shore
 you can just jump in and swim the rest of the way...or you could ride it
 right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is clear, you leave
 the friggin' boat behind!
  
   --- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
I had such a charming time with the
Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
continued an appreciation for their alternative
lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
   
But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
state it so it is so game.
   
When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
nicely, purfectly.
   
I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.
Really important things.  Things I had believed were
irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my
dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my
reaction to people who get into groups and decide they know
how it all

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

First of all I appreciate the area you are clarifying and challenging in my 
statement.  And thinking about it has been helpful for me to find my own 
limits.  Taking the time to pursue ideas in detail is a luxury in this world.

This seems to be the heart of it:

Judy:

 It was your initial humble pie remark that I was aiming
 at. It seemed from the context that the humble pie referred
 to your having decided that your past beliefs had been
 mistaken. I was suggesting that the humble pie might also
 include an acknowledgment that maybe those beliefs were
 *valid* after all. The humble pie should work both ways,
 in other words--humility that you had been too certain
 that the beliefs were valid, and humility about your
 current conviction that they *weren't* valid.

The humility angle may be getting overworked here.  But the intellectual 
position that I have not seen adequate evidence for a belief, that I am really 
sure I have not seen enough evidence or reasons is not a contradiction to being 
humble about knowing my intellectual limits.  And it is a far cry from the 
surety of someone claiming to KNOW something is true because it says so in 
books they hold in a separate class of literature from other books.  Or from 
their experience.

As an example I have reversed my previous belief that meditation was not a 
value for me.  Although I always acknowledged that it might be valuable for 
some, I had concluded that for me it was not a useful state of mind.  That 
belief held for about 17 years after quitting meditation.  Taking the humble 
pie approach after Maharishi's death I experimented with it again to reconsider 
it.  After about 6 months I concluded that the time spent was not worth the 
benefits for me. Then after dropping it again I went back with an open mind 
that perhaps the problem was just the time spent in the practice.  That the old 
formulas for how long and how many times to do it were the problem for me.  Now 
having practiced it in a more limited form for about a year, I am enthusiastic 
about its value in my life.  That value does not include most of what Maharishi 
claimed about it. I don't believe the stress model or the bubble diagram or 
what we used to teach people about the development of consciousness. But on a 
daily basis I really enjoy the practice and would recommend it to others if it 
could be taught without all the associated beliefs I learned it in. I am 
formulating my own list of benefits from the practice that I am discovering as 
I continue to enjoy it. So perhaps I am demonstrating in this example the 
humility to reverse my beliefs given more evidence.

TOPIC JUMP:

I can never be really sure there is no God.  Having pursued the reasons people 
believe in one, I find them lacking in merit.  But that doesn't mean someone 
couldn't come up with compelling reasons to believe in one that would convince 
me.  But I am very sure about not having been convinced so far.  I don't have 
to be humble about the current lack of compelling reasons now.  

No clear thinking atheist could proclaim that they know for certain there is no 
God.  The position I take is that I consider it unlikely knowing full well that 
I have had to amend many core beliefs in the past.  But assigning weight to 
beliefs is an important intellectual exercise and shouldn't be mushed together 
with the concept of being humble.  As I said before, knowing our cognitive 
limits or the limits of evidence so far doesn't mean we know nothing at all.

I have found that the philosophical method of presenting ideas in as compelling 
a way as possible is a great way to understand them better and draw out other 
points of view.  As it has here.  I am an advocate for my POV and ideas.  That 
is part of my intellectual process of evaluating them. 

So like most people I rely on smarter people than myself to help my thinking 
along by reading and trying to understand what they are talking about.  For me 
the people who make a case that many spiritual beliefs are not founded on good 
reasons to believe them is more compelling than the people espousing those 
beliefs.  I am really sure that this is true for me.  

snip to the end:


 If it didn't refer to something you thought I'd said, it's
 a non sequitur. If it did refer to something you thought
 I'd said, it was a straw man.

I don't believe that anything I bring up in these discussion needs to be 
labeled non sequitur just because it doesn't directly follow from what you 
said.  The purpose of the concept of non sequitur is within a carefully 
proscribed chain of arguments.  In that context it serves a purpose.  What we 
are doing here is closer to a loose conversion somewhere between the first and 
second drink.  I am using what you write to stimulate thought and sometimes 
that is off the exact track of where you are going in the discussion.  That 
makes sense and please pass the beernuts while I get the next round.

 
 IOW, I agree with you. Of course it 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 The humility angle may be getting overworked here.  But the 
 intellectual position that I have not seen adequate evidence 
 for a belief, that I am really sure I have not seen enough 
 evidence or reasons is not a contradiction to being humble 
 about knowing my intellectual limits.  And it is a far cry 
 from the surety of someone claiming to KNOW something is 
 true because it says so in books they hold in a separate 
 class of literature from other books.  Or from their 
 experience.

Amen.

 As an example I have reversed my previous belief that 
 meditation was not a value for me.  Although I always 
 acknowledged that it might be valuable for some, I had 
 concluded that for me it was not a useful state of mind.  
 That belief held for about 17 years after quitting meditation.  
 Taking the humble pie approach after Maharishi's death I 
 experimented with it again to reconsider it.  After about 
 6 months I concluded that the time spent was not worth the 
 benefits for me. Then after dropping it again I went back 
 with an open mind that perhaps the problem was just the 
 time spent in the practice.  That the old formulas for how 
 long and how many times to do it were the problem for me.  
 Now having practiced it in a more limited form for about 
 a year, I am enthusiastic about its value in my life.  
 That value does not include most of what Maharishi claimed 
 about it. I don't believe the stress model or the bubble 
 diagram or what we used to teach people about the development 
 of consciousness. But on a daily basis I really enjoy the 
 practice and would recommend it to others if it could be 
 taught without all the associated beliefs I learned it in. 

Amen again. This echoes my feelings about meditation.
I never stopped practicing it, but I definitely stopped
following any rules about which technique to practice, 
for so many times a day, and for how long. I meditate 
when I want to, and have found that this makes all the 
difference in the world. 

 TOPIC JUMP:
 
 I can never be really sure there is no God.  

Just as no one -- repeat that, NO ONE -- can be sure
that there is. They can claim to know all they want,
but that's just a claim, with zero evidence. The more
stridently they make the claim, the less believable 
they become.

 Having pursued the reasons people believe in one, I find 
 them lacking in merit. But that doesn't mean someone 
 couldn't come up with compelling reasons to believe in 
 one that would convince me.  

From my side, if God himself/herself/itself appeared
to me and said, I exist, Dummy, NOTHING WOULD 
CHANGE IN MY LIFE. I would still live exactly the 
way I live today, meditate or not meditate as I do 
today, and do everything else exactly the same way. 
So for me the whole question is moot. God, no God, 
no issue.

 But I am very sure about not having been convinced so far.  
 I don't have to be humble about the current lack of compelling 
 reasons now.  

What is fascinating to me is that the God-believers
don't seem to be capable of displaying the same 
humility they demand in non-believers. They're
still trying to get the non-believers to change 
their stance. Ain't nothing humble about that.

 No clear thinking atheist could proclaim that they know for 
 certain there is no God.  

I've never met one who does.

snip 
 I don't believe that anything I bring up in these discussion 
 needs to be labeled non sequitur just because it doesn't 
 directly follow from what you said.  

Or because the you in question is too rigid to 
follow your train of thought. No one on this forum
controls what gets said, even though some continue
to try. There is nothing the least bit humble about
trying to force someone to talk about what *you* want
them to talk about if it holds no interest for them.

I am less tolerant than you, Curtis, in that there
are people who experience has taught me to just write
fuckin' off. There is simply zero possibility of 
discussing anything with them pleasantly; they always
try to turn it into some kind of imaginary battle,
and then always declare that they've won the imag-
inary battle. Life's too short IMO to waste any time
conversing with someone who has a track record of
doing this. 

Bottom line is that I have almost zero tolerance for
evangelists who are trying to sell me something. If
I encounter them at a party or a social function, I
just turn and walk away. If I encounter them on the
Internet, same thing. Let them go sell their shit
to someone who's in the market to buy some shit.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
snip
  I don't believe that anything I bring up in these discussion 
  needs to be labeled non sequitur just because it doesn't 
  directly follow from what you said.  
 
 Or because the you in question is too rigid to 
 follow your train of thought. No one on this forum
 controls what gets said, even though some continue
 to try. There is nothing the least bit humble about
 trying to force someone to talk about what *you* want
 them to talk about if it holds no interest for them.

Says Barry, increasingly desperate for a way to Get Judy,
even when it makes zero sense in the context of Curtis's
and my conversation and just makes him look
STOOPID.

 I am less tolerant than you, Curtis, in that there
 are people who experience has taught me to just write
 fuckin' off. There is simply zero possibility of 
 discussing anything with them pleasantly; they always
 try to turn it into some kind of imaginary battle,
 and then always declare that they've won the imag-
 inary battle.

And now he's lying, if he's referring to me. Par for
the course. He has no *valid* criticism, so he has to
make stuff up.

Be interesting to count up the number of pleasant
discussions I've had here versus the number Barry has
had. I'd guess it's three to one, at least.

Mainly, what's freaking him out is that Curtis and I
*have* been having a pleasant discussion. The little
snag we ran into at the end involved Curtis taking
unnecessary offense at something I said, not the other
way around.

 Bottom line is that I have almost zero tolerance for
 evangelists who are trying to sell me something. If
 I encounter them at a party or a social function, I
 just turn and walk away. If I encounter them on the
 Internet, same thing. Let them go sell their shit
 to someone who's in the market to buy some shit.

And this is hilarious, given that what I've been 
selling in this discussion is the willingness to
*acknowledge uncertainty*.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Duveyoung]

Nice piece, Dude.  

But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that we also 
have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we mindfully have put 
into place?  Even the mundane is ritualized thereby.  I always have mustard 
with my hot dog just as much as these guys have to have a certain amount of 
candles lit for their hotdogish ceremony.  See?

I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against change than 
these monks, only they get to claim they're routines are spiritually evolving 
them at a faster (fastest?) pace than ordinary life can do Edg.  

I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be omnipresent, so 
if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to have the deepest divinity 
available, and the only missing element is my intent to see it or, lacking the 
eyesight, try to see it if I can evolve a mind capable of doing so.  

These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in a cocoon of 
sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly stimulated by such objects to 
re-up their commitment to place awareness on the divine, but the likes of you 
and I are out here winging it with the onus of penetrating the common to see 
that everything has a deep silence about it which is the exact holiness these 
monks seek.  

To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the vine, and they're 
doing canned food.  We might not always get what we want, but we get it fresh 
and tastier than that fare from the dusty tomes.

Edg   

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into 
 spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative 
 lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture, 
 interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and the 
 Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an 
 image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I would 
 happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in unlimited 
 doses back in the day.
 
 But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel as 
 though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being open to 
 life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating 
 what they collectively decided truth is and then were only going with that.  
 It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small mindedness. There is way too 
 much surety in their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit 
 dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we state it so it is 
 so game. 
 
 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on maxing 
 out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass bikers of 
 spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of spirituality, it does 
 make some sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss get in the 
 way.  That was the thinking I had when I went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to 
 put all my eggs into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs 
 in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. 
 We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what 
 we thought was the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the 
 epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to 
 evaluate it by the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So 
 it all fit so nicely, purfectly. 
 
 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really important things.  
 Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie 
 on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction 
 to people who get into groups and decide they know how it all really really 
 is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond what I now have accepted is the 
 human condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is 
 software bug that we need to respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey 
 me and Fred and Sam have all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a 
 lifetime sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is 
 what's up.  Fer relll. 
 
 And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great impression 
 of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open to where their 
 life leads them.  They may actually believe that they are open-minded.  But 
 they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness is carefully 
 proscribed to the very limited range that wont rock the boat.  They are not 
 getting out of that boat into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about 
 the Jesus thing.  
 
 I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully regulated life 
 that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that some people are 
 really not capable of 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[wayback71]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:02 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
 
  On Apr 27, 2011, at 3:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
 
  Huh?? What theoretical case?
 
  That idea that there can in principle be no proof or reasons to
  support a belief in life after death.
 
 
  Conscious dying is practiced is a number of yogic traditions. All
  involve learning how to die BEFORE death.
 
  The bottom line is you've got to get to the point where consciousness
  separates from the body.
 
  This is a claim that could be externally verified.  I would be  
  interested to see if it had.
 
 
 It is being worked on.
 
 As we speak, there is a network of neuroscientists worldwide, who are  
 waiting for the moment when certain advanced meditation practitioners  
 physically die, during which time they will investigated scientifically.
 
 Since it's now known that during deep sleep each person produces a  
 kind of unique baseline EEG signature, EEG fingerprints are being  
 taken of advanced practitioners so when they reincarnate  
 intentionally into a new body, they'll be able to compare the new  
 baseline EEG. This could potentially constitute external validation  
 for conscious reincarnation.


I always assumed that this would never ever be able to be verified by science.  
Is it really true that eachof these baseline EEG fingerpritns is entirely 
unique?  Kind of amazing, if so.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@... wrote:

 Nice piece, Dude. 

Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
 But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that we also 
 have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we mindfully have put 
 into place?  Even the mundane is ritualized thereby.  I always have mustard 
 with my hot dog just as much as these guys have to have a certain amount of 
 candles lit for their hotdogish ceremony.  See?

Sure like me never missing House even though it has sooo jumped the shark.  We 
can try to give our lives routine. In my line of work that is not too easy 
which is one of the things I dig about it.  I am challenged by a completely 
different audience every show.  But the level of sameness in their lives is 
exponentially higher.  When I was living in Maharishi's approximation of that 
life my mind would focus on tiny differences to give me some sense of non 
routine.  The bigger issue with monastic life is that they never interact with 
some guy at the filling station who snakes in front of you when you have been 
waiting in line for the air hose for two cars.  

 
 I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against change than 
 these monks, only they get to claim they're routines are spiritually evolving 
 them at a faster (fastest?) pace than ordinary life can do Edg. 

I seriously doubt you are.  And you raised kids so you have automatically lived 
a life of new shit coming at you that  kicks my life's surprises' butt.
 
 
 I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be omnipresent, 
 so if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to have the deepest divinity 
 available, and the only missing element is my intent to see it or, lacking 
 the eyesight, try to see it if I can evolve a mind capable of doing so. 

Very Thomas Merton.  I think that way too.
 
 
 These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in a cocoon 
 of sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly stimulated by such objects 
 to re-up their commitment to place awareness on the divine,

Is it really the divine of a bunch of ideas and words that aspire to that?  I 
really think that this type of focus is totally overrated.

 but the likes of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of 
penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep silence about it which 
is the exact holiness these monks seek.

I think they are more like us than different.  They have just made all the 
things in society (sans chicks) into a doll house.  They may think about life 
more than an average person, but they are thinking within a pretty tiny 
perspective.  I don't see them as that deep or profound, just a mix like in my 
own life.
  
 
 To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the vine, and they're 
 doing canned food.  We might not always get what we want, but we get it fresh 
 and tastier than that fare from the dusty tomes.
 
 Edg 

I did enjoy the concentration of life's focus when I lived that way or visited 
them in monasteries.  There is a definite hippie charm to their lives.  But I 
believe that it would be a very limiting context for my life to grow in.  And 
the chance for living a live of folle au deux times everyone in the monastery 
seems pretty high. That is too many people trying to agree on something for my 
tastes.  As I said in my original reaction, I believe they have forced their 
ideas on the world rather than being open to other perspectives on it. And the 
busy busy busy deal with other dudes in your face all the time is my idea (and 
Camus') of hell!


  
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into 
  spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative 
  lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture, 
  interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and the 
  Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an 
  image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I would 
  happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in 
  unlimited doses back in the day.
  
  But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel as 
  though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being open to 
  life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating 
  what they collectively decided truth is and then were only going with that. 
   It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small mindedness. There is way too 
  much surety in their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit 
  dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we state it so it is 
  so game. 
  
  When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on maxing 
  out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@... wrote:

 I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, 
 must be omnipresent, so if I'm to honor that, then 
 ordinary life has to have the deepest divinity available, 
 and the only missing element is my intent to see it or, 
 lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I can evolve a 
 mind capable of doing so.  

Hear, hear. Well said.

 These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround 
 themselves in a cocoon of sacred relics, and thus perforce 
 are constantly stimulated by such objects to re-up their 
 commitment to place awareness on the divine, but the likes 
 of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of 
 penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep 
 silence about it which is the exact holiness these monks 
 seek.  

Exactly. I just came back from taking my family out
for dinner and then walking back along the lake and
canals I live by at sunset. There has been nothing in 
any of the official spiritual trips I have invested
time and energy in that surpasses the sense of wonder
and awe my own neighborhood inspired in me tonight.

The monks strike me as searching desperately for the
divine in an atmosphere that is nothing but. Like
fish searching for this mythical water they've been
told about by their holy fish shamans. :-)

 To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the 
 vine, and they're doing canned food.  We might not always 
 get what we want, but we get it fresh and tastier than 
 that fare from the dusty tomes.

I just don't get the reverence for the old that
some spiritual seekers have developed. It's as if
they really believe that life way back when was
more full of the absolute than life now. Talk about
missing the point.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Ravi Yogi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Nice piece, Dude. 
 
 Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.


Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others who might 
be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain English the summary 
would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or worse than yours, but your shit 
stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.




  
  
  But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that we 
  also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we mindfully 
  have put into place?  Even the mundane is ritualized thereby.  I always 
  have mustard with my hot dog just as much as these guys have to have a 
  certain amount of candles lit for their hotdogish ceremony.  See?
 
 Sure like me never missing House even though it has sooo jumped the shark.  
 We can try to give our lives routine. In my line of work that is not too easy 
 which is one of the things I dig about it.  I am challenged by a completely 
 different audience every show.  But the level of sameness in their lives is 
 exponentially higher.  When I was living in Maharishi's approximation of that 
 life my mind would focus on tiny differences to give me some sense of non 
 routine.  The bigger issue with monastic life is that they never interact 
 with some guy at the filling station who snakes in front of you when you have 
 been waiting in line for the air hose for two cars.  
 
  
  I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against change than 
  these monks, only they get to claim they're routines are spiritually 
  evolving them at a faster (fastest?) pace than ordinary life can do Edg. 
 
 I seriously doubt you are.  And you raised kids so you have automatically 
 lived a life of new shit coming at you that  kicks my life's surprises' butt.
  
  
  I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be omnipresent, 
  so if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to have the deepest 
  divinity available, and the only missing element is my intent to see it or, 
  lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I can evolve a mind capable of doing 
  so. 
 
 Very Thomas Merton.  I think that way too.
  
  
  These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in a cocoon 
  of sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly stimulated by such 
  objects to re-up their commitment to place awareness on the divine,
 
 Is it really the divine of a bunch of ideas and words that aspire to that?  
 I really think that this type of focus is totally overrated.
 
  but the likes of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of 
 penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep silence about it 
 which is the exact holiness these monks seek.
 
 I think they are more like us than different.  They have just made all the 
 things in society (sans chicks) into a doll house.  They may think about life 
 more than an average person, but they are thinking within a pretty tiny 
 perspective.  I don't see them as that deep or profound, just a mix like in 
 my own life.
   
  
  To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the vine, and they're 
  doing canned food.  We might not always get what we want, but we get it 
  fresh and tastier than that fare from the dusty tomes.
  
  Edg 
 
 I did enjoy the concentration of life's focus when I lived that way or 
 visited them in monasteries.  There is a definite hippie charm to their 
 lives.  But I believe that it would be a very limiting context for my life to 
 grow in.  And the chance for living a live of folle au deux times everyone in 
 the monastery seems pretty high. That is too many people trying to agree on 
 something for my tastes.  As I said in my original reaction, I believe they 
 have forced their ideas on the world rather than being open to other 
 perspectives on it. And the busy busy busy deal with other dudes in your face 
 all the time is my idea (and Camus') of hell!
 
 
   
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into 
   spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative 
   lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture, 
   interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and 
   the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia 
   to an image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I 
   would happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in 
   unlimited doses back in the day.
   
   But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel as 
   though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being open 
   to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for 
   dictating 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Nice piece, Dude. 
  
  Thanks, nice to hear from you Edg.
 
 
 Wow Curtis  Edg - amazing discussion. Let me sum this up for others who 
 might be too intellectually deceptuously challenged - in plain English the 
 summary would be - my shit doesn't smell any better or worse than yours, but 
 your shit stinks and mine's amazingly fragrant.

So you were thinking that if you ran trollish behavior on a spiritual list it 
wouldn't be noticed and identified as trollish behavior?

The troll routine is soo 1999 Ravi.  It isn't new, and it isn't 
interesting.  Jump into the deep end and discuss what you disagree with if you 
want to become more than a troll interloper here.




 
 
 
 
   
   
   But, but, but, aren't we all as if in our own private ashrams in that we 
   also have routines that are equally as hard wired, and that we mindfully 
   have put into place?  Even the mundane is ritualized thereby.  I always 
   have mustard with my hot dog just as much as these guys have to have a 
   certain amount of candles lit for their hotdogish ceremony.  See?
  
  Sure like me never missing House even though it has sooo jumped the shark.  
  We can try to give our lives routine. In my line of work that is not too 
  easy which is one of the things I dig about it.  I am challenged by a 
  completely different audience every show.  But the level of sameness in 
  their lives is exponentially higher.  When I was living in Maharishi's 
  approximation of that life my mind would focus on tiny differences to give 
  me some sense of non routine.  The bigger issue with monastic life is that 
  they never interact with some guy at the filling station who snakes in 
  front of you when you have been waiting in line for the air hose for two 
  cars.  
  
   
   I feel like I'm in a box no less ornate or less armored against change 
   than these monks, only they get to claim they're routines are spiritually 
   evolving them at a faster (fastest?) pace than ordinary life can do 
   Edg. 
  
  I seriously doubt you are.  And you raised kids so you have automatically 
  lived a life of new shit coming at you that  kicks my life's surprises' 
  butt.
   
   
   I disagree with the monks in that the divine, if real, must be 
   omnipresent, so if I'm to honor that, then ordinary life has to have the 
   deepest divinity available, and the only missing element is my intent to 
   see it or, lacking the eyesight, try to see it if I can evolve a mind 
   capable of doing so. 
  
  Very Thomas Merton.  I think that way too.
   
   
   These monks are kinda cheating in that they surround themselves in a 
   cocoon of sacred relics, and thus perforce are constantly stimulated by 
   such objects to re-up their commitment to place awareness on the divine,
  
  Is it really the divine of a bunch of ideas and words that aspire to 
  that?  I really think that this type of focus is totally overrated.
  
   but the likes of you and I are out here winging it with the onus of 
  penetrating the common to see that everything has a deep silence about it 
  which is the exact holiness these monks seek.
  
  I think they are more like us than different.  They have just made all the 
  things in society (sans chicks) into a doll house.  They may think about 
  life more than an average person, but they are thinking within a pretty 
  tiny perspective.  I don't see them as that deep or profound, just a mix 
  like in my own life.

   
   To me the difference is that you and I eat fresh off the vine, and 
   they're doing canned food.  We might not always get what we want, but we 
   get it fresh and tastier than that fare from the dusty tomes.
   
   Edg 
  
  I did enjoy the concentration of life's focus when I lived that way or 
  visited them in monasteries.  There is a definite hippie charm to their 
  lives.  But I believe that it would be a very limiting context for my life 
  to grow in.  And the chance for living a live of folle au deux times 
  everyone in the monastery seems pretty high. That is too many people trying 
  to agree on something for my tastes.  As I said in my original reaction, I 
  believe they have forced their ideas on the world rather than being open to 
  other perspectives on it. And the busy busy busy deal with other dudes in 
  your face all the time is my idea (and Camus') of hell!
  
  

   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into 
spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their 
alternative lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo 
culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the 
chanting 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS expose of
Mt. Athos helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of monastics (as
contemplatives who practice seriously) with some of these meditators who
profess to have been meditating 30+ years.



From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption in its
affairs - appears utterly absurd.



***



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote:

 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/21/60minutes/main20056101.shtml

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:

 Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS 
 expose of Mt. Athos helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of 
 monastics (as contemplatives who practice seriously) with 
 some of these meditators who profess to have been meditating 
 30+ years.
 
 From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption 
 in its affairs - appears utterly absurd.

And vice-versa. :-)

Have you ever read Hesse's Magister Ludi? That's
pretty much the definitive expose of the problems
with the monastic approach. 

One gets the feeling that you think hierarchically,
and have fallen for the trap of believing that one
of these ways of life is higher or more evolved
than the other. I see them as merely two different
approaches, neither any higher or better than
the other, neither of any potentially greater benefit
to the spiritual seeker than the other. 

It's purely a matter of predilection in my opinion.
If you're of the disposition to run away from the
world and live a contemplative life, then a monas-
tery will be heaven for you; if you're not, it'll
be hell. Same with living in the world. It's like 
that bumper sticker: Reality is a crutch for those 
who can't handle drugs. Similarly, monasteries are 
a crutch for those who can't handle the world. If 
you can, the world offers just as many opportunities 
for spiritual growth as any monastic setting.

I didn't watch the segment about Mt. Athos, so I 
don't know the answer to the question I always ask
when dealing with monastics: Who pays for your life?
If it's the monks themselves (as in many French or
Belgian monasteries who make beers or wines to pay
for everything), I have absolutely no problem with
their way of life. If they have to rely on begging
or charity or worse, tithing worldly believers, as 
if it's *their* responsibility to pay for the monks' 
lives because they're too holy to work themselves, 
I'm much less impressed. 

Forcing someone else to pay for your life because
you're too sensitive or holy to work is a con game,
no matter how you cut it. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[seventhray1]

I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know about the
daily living on Mt. Athos.  I had kind of expected something different. 
It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial than I had expected.  Really,
I question the degree of spirtituality present there.  What do you
think?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:


 Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS expose
of
 Mt. Athos helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of monastics (as
 contemplatives who practice seriously) with some of these meditators
who
 profess to have been meditating 30+ years.



 From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption in its
 affairs - appears utterly absurd.



 ***



 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@ wrote:
 
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/21/60minutes/main20056101.shtml
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Vaj]

On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote:

I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know  
about the daily living on Mt. Athos.  I had kind of expected  
something different.  It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial  
than I had expected.  Really, I question the degree of  
spirtituality present there.  What do you think?



They seemed to be engaging in some sort of divine theurgy, didn't they?

Quite impressive.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:
snip
 One gets the feeling that you think hierarchically,
 and have fallen for the trap of believing that one
 of these ways of life is higher or more evolved
 than the other. I see them as merely two different
 approaches, neither any higher or better than
 the other, neither of any potentially greater benefit
 to the spiritual seeker than the other. 
snip
 I didn't watch the segment about Mt. Athos, so I 
 don't know the answer to the question I always ask
 when dealing with monastics: Who pays for your life?
 If it's the monks themselves (as in many French or
 Belgian monasteries who make beers or wines to pay
 for everything), I have absolutely no problem with
 their way of life. If they have to rely on begging
 or charity or worse, tithing worldly believers, as 
 if it's *their* responsibility to pay for the monks' 
 lives because they're too holy to work themselves, 
 I'm much less impressed. 
 
 Forcing someone else to pay for your life because
 you're too sensitive or holy to work is a con game,
 no matter how you cut it.

But you don't think hierarchically, so you must not
think monks paying for their lives is any higher or
more evolved than their living off donations.

Right? Merely two different approaches.

cackle

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into 
spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative 
lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture, interesting, 
but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian 
animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image of 
Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I would happily slip 
into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in unlimited doses back in 
the day.

But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel as though 
I was watching people who had decided that rather than being open to life on 
its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating what they 
collectively decided truth is and then were only going with that.  It frankly 
smacks of good old fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in 
their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if 
they are in collusion in a we state it so it is so game. 

When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on maxing out 
my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass bikers of spirituality. 
 I mean once you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some sense to 
go for it.  Not even letting your small boss get in the way.  That was the 
thinking I had when I went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into 
that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was 
a life full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we 
were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was the solid 
ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the epistemological tools to 
question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who 
was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so nicely, 
purfectly. 

I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really important things.  
Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on 
my dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to 
people who get into groups and decide they know how it all really really is, 
beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond what I now have accepted is the human 
condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is software bug 
that we need to respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and 
Sam have all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover 
to reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's up.  Fer 
relll. 

And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great impression 
of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open to where their life 
leads them.  They may actually believe that they are open-minded.  But they are 
playing with a stacked deck and their openness is carefully proscribed to the 
very limited range that wont rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that 
boat into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus thing.  

I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully regulated life 
that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that some people are 
really not capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe environment is 
the best place for them.

But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have life all figured 
out over their lives full of being busy being busy.  They max out their 
schedules in Athos so they never have to sit in some real uncoerced silence and 
face the dilemma of being human without a manual spelling it all out.  I am 
glad they found something they like to fill their day with.  But 10 minutes for 
meals is just disrespectful to the kind of food I like to eat.  And huddling 
together in a fabricated reality is a pretty cheap substitute to letting life 
wash over you on its own terms.  They are giving a lot of lip-service to a God, 
but their very lifestyle negates so much of what would have to be his creation. 
 You know, if one of the thousands of God ideas turned out to be true.   




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote:
 
  I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know  
  about the daily living on Mt. Athos.  I had kind of expected  
  something different.  It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial  
  than I had expected.  Really, I question the degree of  
  spirtituality present there.  What do you think?
 
 
 They seemed to be engaging in some sort of divine theurgy, didn't they?
 
 Quite impressive.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:
snip
 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
 important things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.
 So now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and
 a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to
 people who get into groups and decide they know how it all
 really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond
 what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
 nearly as clever as we think we are.

Do you believe your current beliefs about the human
condition are irrefutable? Or could there be room on
your dinner table for an even bigger humble pie?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
  Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS 
  expose of Mt. Athos

FWIW, it didn't seem to be an expose, at least the text
version of the story didn't. It was quite respectful.

  helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of 
  monastics (as contemplatives who practice seriously) with 
  some of these meditators who profess to have been meditating 
  30+ years.
  
  From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption 
  in its affairs - appears utterly absurd.
 
 And vice-versa. :-)
 
 Have you ever read Hesse's Magister Ludi? That's
 pretty much the definitive expose of the problems
 with the monastic approach.

Well, definitive for those who are predisposed to
see the monastic approach as problematic.

 One gets the feeling that you think hierarchically,
 and have fallen for the trap of believing that one
 of these ways of life is higher or more evolved
 than the other.

I get the feeling he was referring to the smutty
remarks about bringing in nuns, as opposed to
appreciating the dedication required for the
monastic life.

 I see them as merely two different
 approaches, neither any higher or better than
 the other, neither of any potentially greater benefit
 to the spiritual seeker than the other.

However, you make it clear which approach *you* think
is of greater benefit to the spiritual seeker.

 It's purely a matter of predilection in my opinion.
 If you're of the disposition to run away from the
 world and live a contemplative life, then a monas-
 tery will be heaven for you; if you're not, it'll
 be hell. Same with living in the world. It's like 
 that bumper sticker: Reality is a crutch for those 
 who can't handle drugs. Similarly, monasteries are 
 a crutch for those who can't handle the world.

Or perhaps even more similarly, the world is a crutch
for those who can't handle the monastic life.

 If 
 you can, the world offers just as many opportunities 
 for spiritual growth as any monastic setting.
 
 I didn't watch the segment about Mt. Athos, so I 
 don't know the answer to the question I always ask
 when dealing with monastics: Who pays for your life?
 If it's the monks themselves (as in many French or
 Belgian monasteries who make beers or wines to pay
 for everything), I have absolutely no problem with
 their way of life. If they have to rely on begging
 or charity or worse, tithing worldly believers, as 
 if it's *their* responsibility to pay for the monks' 
 lives because they're too holy to work themselves, 
 I'm much less impressed.

I think if you looked into it, you'd find that in most
monasteries today it's a combination: the monks *do* work
(if only at the tasks necessary to maintain the monastery--
cleaning toilets, cooking, etc.), but also solicit donations.
I'd guess that the majority of monasteries also run various
income-producing enterprises to help pay for their upkeep.
Many grow their own food.

(The Brigittine Monks in Amity, Oregon, make gourmet
confections, including the best fudge I've ever tasted.
The confections are available via mail order from their
Web site. They're entirely self-supporting.)

 Forcing someone else to pay for your life because
 you're too sensitive or holy to work is a con game,
 no matter how you cut it.

It would be if that actually happened, but if it does,
it's very rare (nor would it be a matter of forcing
anybody to contribute). I doubt there are very many
monasteries in which the monks just sit around and have
fun. In most cases, they have a very stiff schedule of
devotional activities, services and prayer and such, in
addition to whatever kind of maintenance and/or income-
producing labor they engage in.

The thing is, from the monks' point of view, their
devotional activities are very much work, both for the
benefit of their own spiritual growth and for that of
the world. In that sense, they're working almost 
constantly, far more hours per day than most of us would
be willing to put in.

And if you're inclined to pooh-pooh that perspective,
it would seem you're not quite so even-handed about
the monastic approach as you claim.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Peter]

Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told everyone to 
please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these external forms of 
spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to be born. Many, of course, 
get stuck in the external form seemingly forever. Like those infamous 
dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who have dedicated their lives to 
an external form of spirituality that apparently, for them, has never 
transcended the form. Forms are the boats that take you across. But once you 
get close to the other shore you can just jump in and swim the rest of the 
way...or you could ride it right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is 
clear, you leave the friggin' boat behind!  

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote:

 From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
 I had such a charming time with the
 Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
 continued an appreciation for their alternative
 lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
 tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
 certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
 imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
 of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
 today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
 used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
 
 But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
 Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
 had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
 terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
 what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
 going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
 fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
 their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
 dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
 state it so it is so game. 
 
 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
 fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
 guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
 you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
 sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
 get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
 went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
 into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
 in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
 the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
 it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
 the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
 epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
 taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
 pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
 nicely, purfectly. 
 
 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. 
 Really important things.  Things I had believed were
 irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my
 dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my
 reaction to people who get into groups and decide they know
 how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
 and beyond what I now have accepted is the human
 condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we
 are.  It is software bug that we need to respect more
 if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
 all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime
 sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure
 this is what's up.  Fer relll. 
 
 And if you sat down with these guys they would give you
 some great impression of humility and a rap about how they
 are innocent and open to where their life leads them. 
 They may actually believe that they are open-minded. 
 But they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness
 is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
 rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat
 into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus
 thing.  
 
 I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a
 carefully regulated life that had its slightly mind numbing
 charms.  And I know that some people are really not
 capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe
 environment is the best place for them.
 
 But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have
 life all figured out over their lives full of being busy
 being busy.  They max out their schedules in Athos so
 they never have to sit in some real uncoerced silence and
 face the dilemma of being human without a manual spelling it
 all out.  I am glad they found something they like to
 fill their day with.  But 10 minutes for meals is just
 disrespectful to the kind of food I like to eat.  And
 huddling together in a fabricated reality is a pretty cheap
 substitute to letting life wash over

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[wayback71]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into 
 spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative 
 lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture, 
 interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and the 
 Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an 
 image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I would 
 happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in unlimited 
 doses back in the day.
 
 But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel as 
 though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being open to 
 life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating 
 what they collectively decided truth is and then were only going with that.  
 It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small mindedness. There is way too 
 much surety in their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit 
 dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we state it so it is 
 so game. 
 
 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on maxing 
 out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass bikers of 
 spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of spirituality, it does 
 make some sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss get in the 
 way.  That was the thinking I had when I went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to 
 put all my eggs into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs 
 in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. 
 We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what 
 we thought was the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the 
 epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to 
 evaluate it by the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So 
 it all fit so nicely, purfectly. 
 
 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really important things.  
 Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie 
 on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction 
 to people who get into groups and decide they know how it all really really 
 is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond what I now have accepted is the 
 human condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is 
 software bug that we need to respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey 
 me and Fred and Sam have all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a 
 lifetime sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is 
 what's up.  Fer relll. 

This reminds me of something I have been wondering about - the movie Of Gods 
and Men that was recently released.  The monks there decided to stay and risk 
being killed (almmost a guarantee that they would be) rather than pick up and 
return to France and another monastery for a while.  Most people I know who saw 
the film were so moved that the monks were true to their beliefs and stayed 
and died.  Me, I thought they should leave for a while, that their beliefs did 
not require them to die, that life trumps being a hero unless you are directly 
saving others.  I am a bit of a coward, for sure. But it points out the extent 
to which people are willing to go for their beliefs, and also the extent to 
which a person can be influenced by being part of a group dynamic. 
 
 And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great impression 
 of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open to where their 
 life leads them.  They may actually believe that they are open-minded.  But 
 they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness is carefully 
 proscribed to the very limited range that wont rock the boat.  They are not 
 getting out of that boat into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about 
 the Jesus thing.  
 
 I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully regulated life 
 that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that some people are 
 really not capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe environment is 
 the best place for them.
 
 But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have life all figured 
 out over their lives full of being busy being busy.  They max out their 
 schedules in Athos so they never have to sit in some real uncoerced silence 
 and face the dilemma of being human without a manual spelling it all out.  I 
 am glad they found something they like to fill their day with.  But 10 
 minutes for meals is just disrespectful to the kind of food I like to eat.  
 And huddling together in a fabricated reality is a pretty cheap substitute to 
 letting life wash over you on its own terms.  They are giving a lot of 
 lip-service to a God, but their very lifestyle negates 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[whynotnow7]

Years ago, I heard that the way to find God was to quit looking for Him.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@... wrote:

 Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told everyone 
 to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these external forms of 
 spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to be born. Many, of course, 
 get stuck in the external form seemingly forever. Like those infamous 
 dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who have dedicated their lives 
 to an external form of spirituality that apparently, for them, has never 
 transcended the form. Forms are the boats that take you across. But once you 
 get close to the other shore you can just jump in and swim the rest of the 
 way...or you could ride it right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing 
 is clear, you leave the friggin' boat behind!  
 
 --- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
 
  From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@...
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
  I had such a charming time with the
  Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
  continued an appreciation for their alternative
  lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
  tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
  certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
  imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
  of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
  today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
  used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
  
  But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
  Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
  had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
  terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
  what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
  going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
  fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
  their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
  dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
  state it so it is so game. 
  
  When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
  fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
  guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
  you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
  sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
  get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
  went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
  into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
  in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
  the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
  it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
  the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
  epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
  taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
  pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
  nicely, purfectly. 
  
  I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. 
  Really important things.  Things I had believed were
  irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my
  dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my
  reaction to people who get into groups and decide they know
  how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
  and beyond what I now have accepted is the human
  condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we
  are.  It is software bug that we need to respect more
  if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
  all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime
  sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure
  this is what's up.  Fer relll. 
  
  And if you sat down with these guys they would give you
  some great impression of humility and a rap about how they
  are innocent and open to where their life leads them. 
  They may actually believe that they are open-minded. 
  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness
  is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
  rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat
  into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus
  thing.  
  
  I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a
  carefully regulated life that had its slightly mind numbing
  charms.  And I know that some people are really not
  capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe
  environment is the best place for them.
  
  But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have
  life all figured out over their lives full of being busy
  being busy.  They max out their schedules in Athos so
  they never have to sit in some real uncoerced silence and
  face the dilemma of being human without a manual spelling it
  all out.  I am glad they found something

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

Hmmm ... this must be from that very rare Pali Sutta just recently
translated into English:

Kill the Buddha Before He Kills You



Could you tell me where to find it in the Nikaya-s?

I'm jus' so styoopid.





--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@... wrote:

 Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told
everyone to please kill him if you meet him in the road.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:

 I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when 
 I was into spirituality that I have continued an appreciation 
 for their alternative lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people 
 way into the tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  

LOL. My sick mind is already dreaming up a story plot
about people who are into both. Cistercian monks who
are WAY into tattoos. :-)

 I certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima 
 imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image of 
 Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I would 
 happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much 
 in unlimited doses back in the day.

I have very uplifting experiences in the monasteries
I visit in Europe. But it's kind of a these guys are
OK and I can so get where they're coming from, but you
really wouldn't want one of them spending time with
your sister kind of uplifting. :-)

snip because I didn't see the 60 Minutes clip

 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being 
 fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these 
 guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you 
 accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some sense 
 to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss get in 
 the way.  That was the thinking I had when I went off to 
 Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket. 
 (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) 

You actually DID that? Dude, there is SO a blues song
in that experience. :-)

 It was a life full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. 
 We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of it.  Placing our 
 irrefutablity on what we thought was the solid ground of 
 our mystical experiences, we lacked the epistemological 
 tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to 
 evaluate it by the same guy who was pitching us his version 
 of reality.  So it all fit so nicely, purfectly. 

Bingo. And the thing is, this is a point that will forever
escape those who have not escaped that surety. You really
can't evaluate a teaching until you can free yourself from
the ways that teaching taught you to evaluate teaching.

 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  

Isn't it funny that there are some on this forum who could
never bring themselves to say this? There is such FREEDOM
in saying, but yet...

 Really important things.  Things I had believed were 
 irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my 
 dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly 
 in my reaction to people who get into groups and decide 
 they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, 
 beyond the grave and beyond what I now have accepted is 
 the human condition.  

I've been wrong so often I've ceased to believe in right. :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[PaliGap]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:

 
 On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote:
 
  I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know  
  about the daily living on Mt. Athos.  I had kind of expected  
  something different.  It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial  
  than I had expected.  Really, I question the degree of  
  spirtituality present there.  What do you think?
 
 
 They seemed to be engaging in some sort of divine theurgy, didn't they?
 

Quite bog standard, humdrum, run of the mill theurgy I'd say!
Divine theurgy would be way cooler. Like apple enhanced cider.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
 snip
  I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
  important things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.
  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and
  a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to
  people who get into groups and decide they know how it all
  really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond
  what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
  nearly as clever as we think we are.
 
 Do you believe your current beliefs about the human
 condition are irrefutable? Or could there be room on
 your dinner table for an even bigger humble pie?

Serve up the evidence and let's see.  I take all assertions on a case by case 
basis.  As far as people not being as clever as they think they are, I have 
amassed a pretty big pile so far so there would need to be something 
impressive.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof is a working 
hypothesis that is working pretty well for me these days.  My research into 
human cognitive flaws leads me to the belief that humans are really shitty at 
getting to the truth about most things.  Especially things that include eternal 
payoffs.

But if your question is could there be evidence so compelling that I would 
change my belief that all the God ideas were made up by man, the answer is yes. 
 I can in principle imagine that happening.  So far, no one is serving up 
anything I consider close.

Irrefutably has no place in my beliefs.  But I have lived long enough to place 
confidence in my percentages or worthiness of beliefs. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

Fervent soliloquy from your self to yourself. Appears to be your
experience of what unity must be like - your own form of self-referral.



This has nothing to do with the realities of monasticism but you can
still make grand proclamations to Turq and he can make some back to you.
Everyone doing so will feel they had put monasticism in is place and
then will feel quite satisfied. Such is enlightenment.




***

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into
spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative
lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture,
interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and
the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia
to an image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I
would happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in
unlimited doses back in the day.

 But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel
as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being
open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for
dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small
mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me to
respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are in
collusion in a we state it so it is so game.

 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on
maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass
bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of
spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.  Not even letting
your small boss get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket.
(while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a life
full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we
were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was the
solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the epistemological
tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it by
the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit
so nicely, purfectly.

 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really important
things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a bit
more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a
relly in my reaction to people who get into groups and decide
they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is software bug that we need to
respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover to
reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's up.  Fer
relll.

 And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great
impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open to
where their life leads them.  They may actually believe that they are
open-minded.  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their
openness is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat into the big old
ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus thing.

 I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully regulated
life that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that some
people are really not capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe
environment is the best place for them.

 But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have life all
figured out over their lives full of being busy being busy.  They max
out their schedules in Athos so they never have to sit in some real
uncoerced silence and face the dilemma of being human without a manual
spelling it all out.  I am glad they found something they like to fill
their day with.  But 10 minutes for meals is just disrespectful to the
kind of food I like to eat.  And huddling together in a fabricated
reality is a pretty cheap substitute to letting life wash over you on
its own terms.  They are giving a lot of lip-service to a God, but their
very lifestyle negates so much of what would have to be his creation. 
You know, if one of the thousands of God ideas turned out to be true.




 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
 
  On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:04 AM, seventhray1 wrote:
 
   I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know
   about the daily living on Mt. Athos.  I had kind of expected
   something different.  It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial
   

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

A fundamentally protestant judgment.
It's all a bunch of empty ceremony, right?



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seventhray1 steve.sundur@...
wrote:


 I take it you were impressed by what you saw, or what you know about
the daily living on Mt. Athos.  I had kind of expected something
different. It seemed more formal, and more ceremonial than I had
expected.  Really, I question the degree of spirtituality present there.
What do you think?

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
 
  Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS expose
 of
  Mt. Athos helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of monastics (as
  contemplatives who practice seriously) with some of these meditators
 who
  profess to have been meditating 30+ years.
 
 
 
  From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption in
its
  affairs - appears utterly absurd.
 
 
 
  ***
 
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@ wrote:
  
  
 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/21/60minutes/main20056101.shtml
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  snip
   I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
   important things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.
   So now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and
   a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to
   people who get into groups and decide they know how it all
   really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond
   what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
   nearly as clever as we think we are.
  
  Do you believe your current beliefs about the human
  condition are irrefutable? Or could there be room on
  your dinner table for an even bigger humble pie?
 
 Serve up the evidence and let's see.

Since you wouldn't expect to be served any evidence until
after you die, that's kind of a useless demand.




 I take all assertions on a case by case basis.  As far as people not being as 
 clever as they think they are, I have amassed a pretty big pile so far so 
 there would need to be something impressive.  Extraordinary claims require 
 extraordinary proof is a working hypothesis that is working pretty well for 
 me these days.  My research into human cognitive flaws leads me to the belief 
 that humans are really shitty at getting to the truth about most things.  
 Especially things that include eternal payoffs.
 
 But if your question is could there be evidence so compelling that I would 
 change my belief that all the God ideas were made up by man, the answer is 
 yes.  I can in principle imagine that happening.  So far, no one is serving 
 up anything I consider close.
 
 Irrefutably has no place in my beliefs.  But I have lived long enough to 
 place confidence in my percentages or worthiness of beliefs. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:

 
 Fervent soliloquy from your self to yourself. Appears to be your
 experience of what unity must be like - your own form of self-referral.
 
 
 
 This has nothing to do with the realities of monasticism but you can
 still make grand proclamations to Turq and he can make some back to you.
 Everyone doing so will feel they had put monasticism in is place and
 then will feel quite satisfied. Such is enlightenment.

I don't know what you are exactly driving at but I spent 3 years living a 
monastic life as well as spending time with life-long monks.  So I would say 
that my ability to have an opinion on the show on their life is a bit more than 
a grand proclamation that has nothing to do with monastic life. This is my take 
on it.  If you have another one that you consider superior perhaps you can do 
more than generate more than the usual poopy pants, but otherwise content, 
free putdown. 




 
 
 
 
 ***
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was into
 spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their alternative
 lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture,
 interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting and
 the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia
 to an image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery today I
 would happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so much in
 unlimited doses back in the day.
 
  But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me feel
 as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than being
 open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted for
 dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
 going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small
 mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me to
 respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are in
 collusion in a we state it so it is so game.
 
  When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed on
 maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass
 bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of
 spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.  Not even letting
 your small boss get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
 went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that basket.
 (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a life
 full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we
 were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was the
 solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the epistemological
 tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it by
 the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit
 so nicely, purfectly.
 
  I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really important
 things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a bit
 more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a
 relly in my reaction to people who get into groups and decide
 they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
 and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
 nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is software bug that we need to
 respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
 all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover to
 reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's up.  Fer
 relll.
 
  And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great
 impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and open to
 where their life leads them.  They may actually believe that they are
 open-minded.  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their
 openness is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
 rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat into the big old
 ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus thing.
 
  I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully regulated
 life that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that some
 people are really not capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of safe
 environment is the best place for them.
 
  But I would rather take the bitter pill of you don't have life all
 figured out over their lives full of being busy being busy.  They max
 out their schedules in Athos so they never have to sit in some real
 uncoerced silence and face the dilemma of being human without a manual
 spelling it all out.  I am glad they found something they like to fill
 their day with.  But 10 minutes for meals is just disrespectful to the
 kind of food I like to eat.  And 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@... wrote:

 Good stuff, Curtis. Where you're coming from is why the Buddha told everyone 
 to please kill him if you meet him in the road. All these external forms of 
 spirituality must die for authentic spirituality to be born. Many, of course, 
 get stuck in the external form seemingly forever. Like those infamous 
 dome-zombies (I'm sure we know most of them!) who have dedicated their lives 
 to an external form of spirituality that apparently, for them, has never 
 transcended the form.

Is it the external form they are dedicated to?  I always assumed that people 
were having the experiences I was having in the dome but that they were 
assigning a greater meaning to them than I do.  I see most of them as content 
free endorphin addicts. Because Maharishi interpreted their internal experience 
as the purpose of life they keep hitting their pellet lever.  For me life is a 
balance of hitting that lever directly and forcing yourself to connect to it 
through achievement.  It is the longer route but it has more substantial 
rewards, as in music for me.

 Forms are the boats that take you across. But once you get close to the other 
shore you can just jump in and swim the rest of the way...or you could ride it 
right in. It doesn't really matter. But one thing is clear, you leave the 
friggin' boat behind!

But once you are speaking about the boat (or the behind!) you are choosing 
among a bunch of options, right?


  
 
 --- On Wed, 4/27/11, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote:
 
  From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@...
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Wednesday, April 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
  I had such a charming time with the
  Cistercian monks when I was into spirituality that I have
  continued an appreciation for their alternative
  lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the
  tattoo culture, interesting, but I keep my distance.  I
  certainly dig the chanting and the Jungian animous/anima
  imagery of all the dudes singing Salve Reginia to an image
  of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
  today I would happily slip into the the kind of trance I
  used to love so much in unlimited doses back in the day.
  
  But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt.
  Athos  made me feel as though I was watching people who
  had decided that rather than being open to life on its own
  terms and discovering truth, they had opted for dictating
  what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
  going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old
  fashioned small mindedness. There is way too much surety in
  their surety for me to respect them.  It seems a bit
  dishonest, slippery, as if they are in collusion in a we
  state it so it is so game. 
  
  When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being
  fixed on maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these
  guys as the badass bikers of spirituality.  I mean once
  you accept the premise of spirituality, it does make some
  sense to go for it.  Not even letting your small boss
  get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when I
  went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs
  into that basket. (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs
  in a loin cloth) It was a life full of the surety I see in
  the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really, we were sure of
  it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
  the solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
  epistemological tools to question it all.  We had been
  taught the way to evaluate it by the same guy who was
  pitching us his version of reality.  So it all fit so
  nicely, purfectly. 
  
  I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life. 
  Really important things.  Things I had believed were
  irrefutable.  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my
  dinner table and a whole lot more of a relly in my
  reaction to people who get into groups and decide they know
  how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave
  and beyond what I now have accepted is the human
  condition.  We aren't nearly as clever as we think we
  are.  It is software bug that we need to respect more
  if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam have
  all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime
  sleepover to reinforce to each other how much we are sure
  this is what's up.  Fer relll. 
  
  And if you sat down with these guys they would give you
  some great impression of humility and a rap about how they
  are innocent and open to where their life leads them. 
  They may actually believe that they are open-minded. 
  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their openness
  is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
  rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat
  into the big old ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus
  thing

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   snip
I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
important things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.
So now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and
a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to
people who get into groups and decide they know how it all
really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond
what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
nearly as clever as we think we are.
   
   Do you believe your current beliefs about the human
   condition are irrefutable? Or could there be room on
   your dinner table for an even bigger humble pie?
  
  Serve up the evidence and let's see.
 
 Since you wouldn't expect to be served any evidence until
 after you die, that's kind of a useless demand.

I'm not getting your focus here.  Is it a belief in people's confidence in what 
happens after death that you are challenging my skepticism on?  I can think of 
ways that life after death could be proven without actually dying.  
Communicating with one of them in a convincing way is an obvious way.  But the 
method of that proof is up to the people declaring it.  So far it seems to be 
based on the unfounded assertions of literature that they consider to be in a 
special class.



 
 
 
 
  I take all assertions on a case by case basis.  As far as people not being 
  as clever as they think they are, I have amassed a pretty big pile so far 
  so there would need to be something impressive.  Extraordinary claims 
  require extraordinary proof is a working hypothesis that is working pretty 
  well for me these days.  My research into human cognitive flaws leads me to 
  the belief that humans are really shitty at getting to the truth about most 
  things.  Especially things that include eternal payoffs.
  
  But if your question is could there be evidence so compelling that I would 
  change my belief that all the God ideas were made up by man, the answer is 
  yes.  I can in principle imagine that happening.  So far, no one is serving 
  up anything I consider close.
  
  Irrefutably has no place in my beliefs.  But I have lived long enough to 
  place confidence in my percentages or worthiness of beliefs.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

Hesse was never a monastic so he was just imagining what he thought it
was. It is actually much more and also much less than your imagination.
Everything in monasticism depends upon the individual monastic.



Most Eastern Orthodox monasteries clothe and feed their own members
along with their many visitors. Monastics work in the monastery to
support everyone there. Mt. Athos is that way - which is part of their
lifestyle.


***


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
  Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS expose
of Mt. Athos helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of
  monastics (as contemplatives who practice seriously) with
  some of these meditators who profess to have been meditating
  30+ years.
 
  From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption
  in its affairs - appears utterly absurd.

 And vice-versa. :-)

 Have you ever read Hesse's Magister Ludi? That's
 pretty much the definitive expose of the problems
 with the monastic approach.

 One gets the feeling that you think hierarchically,
 and have fallen for the trap of believing that one
 of these ways of life is higher or more evolved
 than the other. I see them as merely two different
 approaches, neither any higher or better than
 the other, neither of any potentially greater benefit
 to the spiritual seeker than the other.

 It's purely a matter of predilection in my opinion.
 If you're of the disposition to run away from the
 world and live a contemplative life, then a monas-
 tery will be heaven for you; if you're not, it'll
 be hell. Same with living in the world. It's like
 that bumper sticker: Reality is a crutch for those
 who can't handle drugs. Similarly, monasteries are
 a crutch for those who can't handle the world. If
 you can, the world offers just as many opportunities
 for spiritual growth as any monastic setting.

 I didn't watch the segment about Mt. Athos, so I
 don't know the answer to the question I always ask
 when dealing with monastics: Who pays for your life?
 If it's the monks themselves (as in many French or
 Belgian monasteries who make beers or wines to pay
 for everything), I have absolutely no problem with
 their way of life. If they have to rely on begging
 or charity or worse, tithing worldly believers, as
 if it's *their* responsibility to pay for the monks'
 lives because they're too holy to work themselves,
 I'm much less impressed.

 Forcing someone else to pay for your life because
 you're too sensitive or holy to work is a con game,
 no matter how you cut it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Yifu]

I love all the diverse opinions, great work everyone! (I haven't decided yet 
what the truth is,...but maybe some day). But on the whole, instead of 
visiting either of those Monkish places, I would recommend spending time 
watching The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
...
A Daniel Craig sequel coming out this year.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3749416704/tt1132620


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:

 
 Hesse was never a monastic so he was just imagining what he thought it
 was. It is actually much more and also much less than your imagination.
 Everything in monasticism depends upon the individual monastic.
 
 
 
 Most Eastern Orthodox monasteries clothe and feed their own members
 along with their many visitors. Monastics work in the monastery to
 support everyone there. Mt. Athos is that way - which is part of their
 lifestyle.
 
 
 ***
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
  
   Reading the inane FFL comments here about this 60-Minutes CBS expose
 of Mt. Athos helps to contrast the basic viewpoint of
   monastics (as contemplatives who practice seriously) with
   some of these meditators who profess to have been meditating
   30+ years.
  
   From the monastic viewpoint, the world - along with absorption
   in its affairs - appears utterly absurd.
 
  And vice-versa. :-)
 
  Have you ever read Hesse's Magister Ludi? That's
  pretty much the definitive expose of the problems
  with the monastic approach.
 
  One gets the feeling that you think hierarchically,
  and have fallen for the trap of believing that one
  of these ways of life is higher or more evolved
  than the other. I see them as merely two different
  approaches, neither any higher or better than
  the other, neither of any potentially greater benefit
  to the spiritual seeker than the other.
 
  It's purely a matter of predilection in my opinion.
  If you're of the disposition to run away from the
  world and live a contemplative life, then a monas-
  tery will be heaven for you; if you're not, it'll
  be hell. Same with living in the world. It's like
  that bumper sticker: Reality is a crutch for those
  who can't handle drugs. Similarly, monasteries are
  a crutch for those who can't handle the world. If
  you can, the world offers just as many opportunities
  for spiritual growth as any monastic setting.
 
  I didn't watch the segment about Mt. Athos, so I
  don't know the answer to the question I always ask
  when dealing with monastics: Who pays for your life?
  If it's the monks themselves (as in many French or
  Belgian monasteries who make beers or wines to pay
  for everything), I have absolutely no problem with
  their way of life. If they have to rely on begging
  or charity or worse, tithing worldly believers, as
  if it's *their* responsibility to pay for the monks'
  lives because they're too holy to work themselves,
  I'm much less impressed.
 
  Forcing someone else to pay for your life because
  you're too sensitive or holy to work is a con game,
  no matter how you cut it.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[emptybill]

Cultic participation does not equal monastic experience. Your judgments
about it are not informed by a real direct experience, in spite of your
assumptions that you are experienced like Jimmy Hendrix. Monasticism
is really much better and/or much worse than the CBS program depicts,
depending on participation and faithfulness.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
 
  Fervent soliloquy from your self to yourself. Appears to be your
  experience of what unity must be like - your own form of
self-referral.
 
 
 
  This has nothing to do with the realities of monasticism but you can
  still make grand proclamations to Turq and he can make some back to
you.
  Everyone doing so will feel they had put monasticism in is place and
  then will feel quite satisfied. Such is enlightenment.

 I don't know what you are exactly driving at but I spent 3 years
living a monastic life as well as spending time with life-long monks. 
So I would say that my ability to have an opinion on the show on their
life is a bit more than a grand proclamation that has nothing to do with
monastic life. This is my take on it.  If you have another one that you
consider superior perhaps you can do more than generate more than the
usual poopy pants, but otherwise content, free putdown.




 
 
 
 
  ***
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was
into
  spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their
alternative
  lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture,
  interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting
and
  the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve
Reginia
  to an image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
today I
  would happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so
much in
  unlimited doses back in the day.
  
   But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me
feel
  as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than
being
  open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted
for
  dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
  going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small
  mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me to
  respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are in
  collusion in a we state it so it is so game.
  
   When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed
on
  maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass
  bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of
  spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.  Not even
letting
  your small boss get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when
I
  went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that
basket.
  (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a
life
  full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really,
we
  were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
the
  solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
epistemological
  tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it
by
  the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all
fit
  so nicely, purfectly.
  
   I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
important
  things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a
bit
  more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a
  relly in my reaction to people who get into groups and
decide
  they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the
grave
  and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We
aren't
  nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is software bug that we
need to
  respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam
have
  all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover
to
  reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's up.  Fer
  relll.
  
   And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great
  impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and
open to
  where their life leads them.  They may actually believe that they
are
  open-minded.  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their
  openness is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
  rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat into the big
old
  ocean of not so damn sure about the Jesus thing.
  
   I fell into a nice routine at Sidhaland.  It was a carefully
regulated
  life that had its slightly mind numbing charms.  And I know that
some
  people are really not capable of being mainstreamed so this kind of
safe
  environment is the best place 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... 
wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
snip
 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
 important things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.
 So now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and
 a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to
 people who get into groups and decide they know how it all
 really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond
 what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
 nearly as clever as we think we are.

Do you believe your current beliefs about the human
condition are irrefutable? Or could there be room on
your dinner table for an even bigger humble pie?
   
   Serve up the evidence and let's see.
  
  Since you wouldn't expect to be served any evidence until
  after you die, that's kind of a useless demand.
 
 I'm not getting your focus here.  Is it a belief in people's 
 confidence in what happens after death that you are
 challenging my skepticism on?

Er, yes, Curtis.

 I can think of ways that life after death could be proven
 without actually dying. Communicating with one of them in
 a convincing way is an obvious way.  But the method of that
 proof is up to the people declaring it.  So far it seems to
 be based on the unfounded assertions of literature that they 
 consider to be in a special class.

This is pretty much all a non sequitur. For all you know,
the impossibility of providing proof to you while you're
alive may be an integral part of the deal.

Point is simply that you don't know whether they're right
or not, or whether it makes any sense to demand proof.
That's the additional slice of humble pie I was suggesting.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[Yifu]

Excellent!...another expert on what's authentic.  Now we have two.
http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/vampire-throneroom.jpg

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:

 Cultic participation does not equal monastic experience. Your judgments
 about it are not informed by a real direct experience, in spite of your
 assumptions that you are experienced like Jimmy Hendrix. Monasticism
 is really much better and/or much worse than the CBS program depicts,
 depending on participation and faithfulness.
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
 curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
  
  
   Fervent soliloquy from your self to yourself. Appears to be your
   experience of what unity must be like - your own form of
 self-referral.
  
  
  
   This has nothing to do with the realities of monasticism but you can
   still make grand proclamations to Turq and he can make some back to
 you.
   Everyone doing so will feel they had put monasticism in is place and
   then will feel quite satisfied. Such is enlightenment.
 
  I don't know what you are exactly driving at but I spent 3 years
 living a monastic life as well as spending time with life-long monks. 
 So I would say that my ability to have an opinion on the show on their
 life is a bit more than a grand proclamation that has nothing to do with
 monastic life. This is my take on it.  If you have another one that you
 consider superior perhaps you can do more than generate more than the
 usual poopy pants, but otherwise content, free putdown.
 
 
 
 
  
  
  
  
   ***
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
   
I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was
 into
   spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their
 alternative
   lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture,
   interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting
 and
   the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve
 Reginia
   to an image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
 today I
   would happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so
 much in
   unlimited doses back in the day.
   
But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me
 feel
   as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than
 being
   open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted
 for
   dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
   going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small
   mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me to
   respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are in
   collusion in a we state it so it is so game.
   
When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed
 on
   maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass
   bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of
   spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.  Not even
 letting
   your small boss get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when
 I
   went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that
 basket.
   (while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a
 life
   full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really,
 we
   were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
 the
   solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
 epistemological
   tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it
 by
   the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all
 fit
   so nicely, purfectly.
   
I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
 important
   things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a
 bit
   more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a
   relly in my reaction to people who get into groups and
 decide
   they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the
 grave
   and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We
 aren't
   nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is software bug that we
 need to
   respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam
 have
   all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover
 to
   reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's up.  Fer
   relll.
   
And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great
   impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and
 open to
   where their life leads them.  They may actually believe that they
 are
   open-minded.  But they are playing with a stacked deck and their
   openness is carefully proscribed to the very limited range that wont
   rock the boat.  They are not getting out of that boat into the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[turquoiseb]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote:

 Excellent!...another expert on what's authentic.  Now we have two.
 http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/vampire-throneroom.jpg

Exactly.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
 
  Cultic participation does not equal monastic experience. Your judgments
  about it are not informed by a real direct experience, in spite of your
  assumptions that you are experienced like Jimmy Hendrix. Monasticism
  is really much better and/or much worse than the CBS program depicts,
  depending on participation and faithfulness.
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
  curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
   
   
Fervent soliloquy from your self to yourself. Appears to be your
experience of what unity must be like - your own form of
  self-referral.
   
   
   
This has nothing to do with the realities of monasticism but you can
still make grand proclamations to Turq and he can make some back to
  you.
Everyone doing so will feel they had put monasticism in is place and
then will feel quite satisfied. Such is enlightenment.
  
   I don't know what you are exactly driving at but I spent 3 years
  living a monastic life as well as spending time with life-long monks. 
  So I would say that my ability to have an opinion on the show on their
  life is a bit more than a grand proclamation that has nothing to do with
  monastic life. This is my take on it.  If you have another one that you
  consider superior perhaps you can do more than generate more than the
  usual poopy pants, but otherwise content, free putdown.
  
  
  
  
   
   
   
   
***
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues
curtisdeltablues@ wrote:

 I had such a charming time with the Cistercian monks when I was
  into
spirituality that I have continued an appreciation for their
  alternative
lifestyle.  Sort of how I view people way into the tattoo culture,
interesting, but I keep my distance.  I certainly dig the chanting
  and
the Jungian animous/anima imagery of all the dudes singing Salve
  Reginia
to an image of Mary.  I'm sure if I was to step into a monastery
  today I
would happily slip into the the kind of trance I used to love so
  much in
unlimited doses back in the day.

 But I have to say that watching these guys on Mt. Athos  made me
  feel
as though I was watching people who had decided that rather than
  being
open to life on its own terms and discovering truth, they had opted
  for
dictating what they collectively decided truth is and then were only
going with that.  It frankly smacks of good old fashioned small
mindedness. There is way too much surety in their surety for me to
respect them.  It seems a bit dishonest, slippery, as if they are in
collusion in a we state it so it is so game.

 When I was into the idea of God and of life's meaning being fixed
  on
maxing out my experience of him, I viewed these guys as the badass
bikers of spirituality.  I mean once you accept the premise of
spirituality, it does make some sense to go for it.  Not even
  letting
your small boss get in the way.  That was the thinking I had when
  I
went off to Sidhaland.  I wanted to put all my eggs into that
  basket.
(while curiously hamocking my actual eggs in a loin cloth) It was a
  life
full of the surety I see in the Athos monks. We KNEW KNEW.  Really,
  we
were sure of it.  Placing our irrefutablity on what we thought was
  the
solid ground of our mystical experiences, we lacked the
  epistemological
tools to question it all.  We had been taught the way to evaluate it
  by
the same guy who was pitching us his version of reality.  So it all
  fit
so nicely, purfectly.

 I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
  important
things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.  So now I have a
  bit
more humble pie on my dinner table and a whole lot more of a
relly in my reaction to people who get into groups and
  decide
they know how it all really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the
  grave
and beyond what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We
  aren't
nearly as clever as we think we are.  It is software bug that we
  need to
respect more if our goal is to go beyond, hey me and Fred and Sam
  have
all decided WHATEVER and so we are all going on a lifetime sleepover
  to
reinforce to each other how much we are sure this is what's up.  Fer
relll.

 And if you sat down with these guys they would give you some great
impression of humility and a rap about how they are innocent and
  open to
where their life leads them.  They may actually believe that they
  are

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@ wrote:
 
  Excellent!...another expert on what's authentic.  Now we
  have two.
  http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/vampire-throneroom.jpg
 
 Exactly.

But for heaven's sake, we want to avoid comparing
credentials at all costs. We might find that one of
the experts actually merits that characterization 
and the other does not, and then we wouldn't be able
to pretend that their opinions are of equivalent
validity.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Mt. Athos featured on 60 Minutes

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ 
 wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues 
   curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
 snip
  I've been wrong about a lot of things in my life.  Really
  important things.  Things I had believed were irrefutable.
  So now I have a bit more humble pie on my dinner table and
  a whole lot more of a relly in my reaction to
  people who get into groups and decide they know how it all
  really really is, beyond doubt, beyond the grave and beyond
  what I now have accepted is the human condition.  We aren't
  nearly as clever as we think we are.
 
 Do you believe your current beliefs about the human
 condition are irrefutable? Or could there be room on
 your dinner table for an even bigger humble pie?

Serve up the evidence and let's see.
   
   Since you wouldn't expect to be served any evidence until
   after you die, that's kind of a useless demand.
  
  I'm not getting your focus here.  Is it a belief in people's 
  confidence in what happens after death that you are
  challenging my skepticism on?
 
 Er, yes, Curtis.
 
  I can think of ways that life after death could be proven
  without actually dying. Communicating with one of them in
  a convincing way is an obvious way.  But the method of that
  proof is up to the people declaring it.  So far it seems to
  be based on the unfounded assertions of literature that they 
  consider to be in a special class.
 
 This is pretty much all a non sequitur. For all you know,
 the impossibility of providing proof to you while you're
 alive may be an integral part of the deal.

I don't know where you get that assumption from. What I wrote was not a non 
sequitur to your question about, could I be wrong about people who assert 
confident knowledge of such things.  The answer is yes, I could change my mind 
for good reasons if they were made available. If you are saying that this is a 
class of beliefs that is somehow exempt from any form of evaluation, then I 
would place a very low probability on the usefulness of such a belief for me.

But these beliefs are not presented this way. They are presented with reasons 
to believe them.  I find those reasons lacking in merit. So it is your 
insertion of the caveat that providing proof while we are alive into the 
discussion that is the non sequitur in this discussion.   

 
 Point is simply that you don't know whether they're right
 or not, or whether it makes any sense to demand proof.

I do know that the evidence they have presented as the reasons for their 
beliefs are not compelling for me.  Proof is a big word.  There are a lot of 
versions of it.  But people have  beliefs for reasons.  They don't hold beliefs 
for no reason.  It is their reasons that I am evaluating as coming up short so 
far.  I don't see anything about specific beliefs in what happens after death 
that make them exempt from showing the reasons they are being held.  So I do 
know that it makes sense to ask for reasons or proof of any belief that I am 
considering. Otherwise we have left a reasonable discourse of ideas.  There are 
always reasons to believe these ideas.  Sometimes it comes in the form of 
believe in this with no proof and your faith will buy you a good seat in the 
afterlife.  I find that argument lacking in merit, but it is an argument and 
not what you are proposing which is a lack of ability for proof in principle.

 That's the additional slice of humble pie I was suggesting.


I believe it makes sense for me to evaluate claims according to the reasons 
they are being made.  If your version of the humility you are requesting 
requires me to abandon that belief, I would need to now why.  I haven't found 
that assuming beliefs with no good reason works out too well.