[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Thanks for this info. I do have a copy of the reply. I usually write replies in a text editor if the reply is long in case Yahoo malfunctions, or I accidentally do something stupid like hit the 'Cancel' button. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: It's happened to me once or twice recently, Xeno. More often, I've gotten the Cannot retrieve... error message when I've hit the Reply button. Usually refreshing a time or two gives me the Reply window. If I'm remembering correctly, when Cannot retrieve... has come up when I've tried to *Send* a reply, a refresh takes me back to the Reply window, but whatever I've written is gone. It's sporadic and apparently random. There's nothing wrong with the post itself or, most likely, your machine-- although I *think* this started happening right after I installed the latest IE8 update. Not sure, though. When Yahoo is misbehaving and eating replies, I try to remember, right before clicking Send, to copy what I've written into Notepad (Windows's text editor). That way if the reply disappears into Yahoo's maw, I can give it another go instead of having to reconstruct what I wrote. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: Test: Reply to post #333048 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. If that is what he meant, I wouldn't dispute it. I don't think he's saying what Barry says below, but he can chime in if he wants and clarify. It's Barry who is trying to mislead you by misrepresenting the point I was making, which he has chosen not to address. I've made that point clear in other posts, so I won't go into it again. Basically it has to do with discriminating between what sorts of activities and results can be said to involve the placebo effect and which cannot. Quite obviously it's inappropriate to claim, as Barry did, that the results reported in the study that began this discussion are a result of the placebo effect. It appears that Barry read no more than the headline before making his claim. All of what he writes here is intended to distract attention from my point.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
and again in an ever-widening fashion. You make no progress in understanding if you remain on a limited level of specifics. That does not mean you ignore specifics, because they have to fit into the larger scheme in a particular way to be of any value; they have a definite part to play. But imagination and extrapolation, which is potentially fraught with error, is necessary to move into a larger realm of experience and understanding, and that means at times, you have to temporarily push the specifics under the rug, out of sight for a while, before you return to see how it all comes down, after you have stretched the boundaries beyond what you previously knew. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can be a placebo. Something you hear at a lecture, something you read, some technique someone tells you to do, or even some pilgrimage someone tells you to take. Those who are placebo-prone will get some benefit from it, whether there is any legitimate reason for the benefit or not. THAT is what I believe is happening with the Kumbh Mela. It is *classic* placebo, with centuries of PR touting the sup- posed benefits of going there and bathing in sewage at the propitious times of year. And I say this knowing that *I* get high and perceive benefits from going to places of power myself. Part of me would like to believe that the benefits I perceive from doing so has something to do with the nature of the place, but another part of me knows that it is more likely a placebo effect. Either way, I'll still keep going to those places, because I like the effect... placebo effect or otherwise. From: authfriend To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Xeno wrote: We all have cultural biases we are not even cognizant of that fashions our thinking in particular channels, and if we are not aware of them, these behavioural rigidities can be used to control us, or even if no external forces impinge on us, can subvert our own desires. Share asks: Is it even possible for there to be no external forces impinging upon us? Are there even forces external or internal? Xeno also wrote: Conditioning runs deep, and even with a lot of experiential unboundedness, it can be hard to break down. Share comments: I saw this in the workshop on Sunday. In the afternoon we did an exercise about our requirements for friendship and partnership. People did not want to neutralize those even though at that point everyone had experienced many times how much more freedom there was after neutralizing. I'd say fear is the main factor in this situation. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. If that is what he meant, I wouldn't dispute it. I don't think he's saying what Barry says below, but he can chime in if he wants and clarify. It's Barry who is trying to mislead you by misrepresenting the point I was making, which he has chosen not to address. I've made that point clear in other posts, so I won't go into it again. Basically it has to do with discriminating between what sorts of activities and results can be said to involve the placebo effect and which cannot. Quite obviously it's inappropriate to claim, as Barry did, that the results reported in the study that began this discussion are a result of the placebo effect. It appears that Barry read no more than the headline before making his claim. All of what he writes here is intended to distract attention from my point. Strictly speaking, the placebo effect deals with a medically inactive substance that is promoted to the patient as a cure for what ails them. We do observe what appears to be analogous responses in other venues. I generalised the concept. This is what you do in science. A limited effect is observed and verified. A scientist then wonders if the effect extends to a wider realm. Thus specific observation and induction lead to a general rule in a limited case. Extrapolation and induction make the attempt to generalise the concept further. While planetary orbits do not at all resemble the world of quantum mechanics, the idea that electrons orbit a nucleus of protons and neutrons, once those particles identities were well established, allowed further advances in knowledge even though electron orbitals proved very unlike gravitationally bound planetary orbits. What I was doing was extending the idea of the placebo to a generalised 'anticipation response' that presumably would operate on similar mental and biological principles by which the body and mind respond to a given situation in the context of a strongly held belief, even if that belief is total nonsense. In terms of SCI, that religious doctrine in the disguise of science, it is a move from point value to infinity. We see the same idea, analogously, in spirituality. We say that in a world of specificity and multiplicity of things and concepts, there is an unbound, nonspecific value, which if experienced, will give us more freedom. At first that value, if experienced, is very momentary. Eventually, the story goes, it becomes more contiguous in time, and eventually subsumes all experiences, a path of evolving experience that goes from specific values to a totally unspecific quality of experience, in which there is no longer any path of progression possible. One of the interesting results of this is people can experience life becoming meaningless because the dominant quality of experience becomes nonspecific (that is a spiritual trap, but it happens to a lot of people). The ultimate meaning of one's life becomes inexpressible. Both experientially and intellectually, the move from specific to general results in the specificity becoming less meaningful as context expands. At one time the electric force and the magnetic force were specific separate realms, until Maxwell found a way to show they were the same. Quantum electrodynamics and quantum chromodynamics have
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Barry never DID understand the difference between Tantra, and Tauntra Or Tantrum. It's hardly surprising that UncleTantrum, Barry the Turq has a fit and is unable to control himself when he sees millions, as many as 110 million Hindus come together and are having a good time. Perhaps he will relax a little when the pictures of his hero, that Llama-fellow appears. His dept of PR is saying he is going within a few days. Got to stay in touch with all the Hollywood celebrities there you know !
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@ wrote: Barry never DID understand the difference between Tantra, and Tauntra Or Tantrum. It's hardly surprising that UncleTantrum, Barry the Turq has a fit and is unable to control himself when he sees millions, as many as 110 million Hindus come together and are having a good time. Unlike yourself, Nabs, I am far from out of control, and absolutely *delighted* to see all of those Hindus demonstrating exactly how low-vibe and superstitious their religion is. I mean, in what other religion do you have a bunch of guys running around naked and diving into a cesspool because the planets are right, and then millions of sheep-followers diving in right after them so that they can bathe in the same holy man tea cesspool-water to soak up some of their vibes? It's BY FAR the largest demonstration of pure super- stition and Dark Ages ignorance on the planet. What is fascinating is that almost everyone here, including yourself, would view it *exactly* the same way if you hadn't been brainwashed by a Hindu suprem- icist into believing that such things were Vedic, and thus good. But they give the shit- and corpse- filled rivers a pass, and they give the caste system that *still* dictates the order in which the millions get to bathe in the cesspool a pass, and they give the systematic bilking of millions of followers to pay supposed holy men to chant for them and intercede with gods and goddesses that don't exist a pass, because they were told to do so by a charlatan who wouldn't even have been allowed to teach within his own order of monks. Go figure. Perhaps he will relax a little when the pictures of his hero, that Llama-fellow appears. His dept of PR is saying he is going within a few days. Got to stay in touch with all the Hollywood celebrities there you know ! The Dalai Lama is neither my hero nor my teacher. As for courting celebrities, you *do* know, don't you, that you studied with the biggest celebrity ass-kisser of all time, right? :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would likely be difficult or impossible as a pilgrimage is a situation where one cannot effectively apply scientific controls. Both sides of this 'debate' are valid, as to causality. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. Suppose one did a study on the effect of chewing gum flavours in a spiritual community. If one of the flavours was Juicy Fruit and the other
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: snip It's hardly surprising that UncleTantrum, Barry the Turq has a fit and is unable to control himself when he sees millions, as many as 110 million Hindus come together and are having a good time. Unlike yourself, Nabs, I am far from out of control, and absolutely *delighted* to see all of those Hindus demonstrating exactly how low-vibe and superstitious their religion is. I mean, in what other religion do you have a bunch of guys running around naked and diving into a cesspool because the planets are right, and then millions of sheep-followers diving in right after them so that they can bathe in the same holy man tea cesspool-water to soak up some of their vibes? It's BY FAR the largest demonstration of pure super- stition and Dark Ages ignorance on the planet. What is fascinating is that almost everyone here, including yourself, would view it *exactly* the same way if you hadn't been brainwashed by a Hindu suprem- icist into believing that such things were Vedic, Actually, some of us think the kind of out-of-control religious and ethnic bigotry demonstrated in this post is far, far lower vibe than what the targets of the bigotry do or believe, regardless of whether we think the religious beliefs and activities in question are valid.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. From: authfriend authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can be a placebo. Something you hear at a lecture, something you read, some technique someone tells you to do, or even some pilgrimage someone tells you to take. Those who are placebo-prone will get some benefit from it, whether there is any legitimate reason for the benefit or not. THAT is what I believe is happening with the Kumbh Mela. It is *classic* placebo, with centuries of PR touting the sup- posed benefits of going there and bathing in sewage at the propitious times of year. And I say this knowing that *I* get high and perceive benefits from going to places of power myself. Part of me would like to believe that the benefits I perceive from doing so has something to do with the nature of the place, but another part of me knows that it is more likely a placebo effect. Either way, I'll still keep going to those places, because I like the effect... placebo effect or otherwise. From: authfriend To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
The vagus nerve connection to placebo effect makes sense to me because I've heard that it's connected to fight or flight, begins in solar plexus, ends in bottom of pelvic floor. Personally I've observed that when fear of death arises, usually there's a tightness in my solar plexus. I know of one therapist who studied a technique that involved relaxing the pelvic floor and I personally know of techniques that involve putting the attention on the solar plexus area. I'm glad that we're learning about the importance of this area. But when you say that some are more susceptible than others, what does that mean exactly? That they experience more objectively observable benefits and for longer periods of time? That their vagal tone index improves most quickly but then also returns to original state most quickly? Definitely a rich angle on the research. Some fMRI work could also be done. See what parts of the brain are becoming active and when, etc. What comes to mind is Tara Bennett Goleman explaining the brain neural pathways like ruts in a dirt road. The more one thinks the same thought, the deeper that rut gets and the more likely one is to think that thought again. Conversely, even ONE time thinking a different thought or taking a different course of action allows new neural pathways to be activated. Could be especially helpful with addictions. Extending this metaphor, I'd say what Paul Wong's neutralizing process does is fill up those ruts in the road so that all neural pathways are equally open to being followed. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can be a placebo. Something you hear at a lecture, something you read, some technique someone tells you to do, or even some pilgrimage someone tells you to take. Those who are placebo-prone will get some benefit from it, whether there is any legitimate reason for the benefit or not. THAT is what I believe is happening with the Kumbh Mela. It is *classic* placebo, with centuries of PR touting the sup- posed benefits of going
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. If that is what he meant, I wouldn't dispute it. I don't think he's saying what Barry says below, but he can chime in if he wants and clarify. It's Barry who is trying to mislead you by misrepresenting the point I was making, which he has chosen not to address. I've made that point clear in other posts, so I won't go into it again. Basically it has to do with discriminating between what sorts of activities and results can be said to involve the placebo effect and which cannot. Quite obviously it's inappropriate to claim, as Barry did, that the results reported in the study that began this discussion are a result of the placebo effect. It appears that Barry read no more than the headline before making his claim. All of what he writes here is intended to distract attention from my point. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can be a placebo. Something you hear at a lecture, something you read, some technique someone tells you to do, or even some pilgrimage someone tells you to take. Those who are placebo-prone will get some benefit from it, whether there is any legitimate reason for the benefit or not. THAT is what I believe is happening with the Kumbh Mela. It is *classic* placebo, with centuries of PR touting the sup- posed benefits of going there and bathing in sewage at the propitious times of year. And I say this knowing that *I* get high and perceive benefits from going to places of power myself. Part of me would like to believe that the benefits I perceive from doing so has something to do with the nature of the place, but another part of me knows that it is more likely a placebo effect. Either way, I'll still keep going to those places, because I like the effect... placebo effect or otherwise. From: authfriend To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Here's some information on the vagus nerve http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/grossanatomy/h_n/cn/cn1/cn10.htm From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being The vagus nerve connection to placebo effect makes sense to me because I've heard that it's connected to fight or flight, begins in solar plexus, ends in bottom of pelvic floor. Personally I've observed that when fear of death arises, usually there's a tightness in my solar plexus. I know of one therapist who studied a technique that involved relaxing the pelvic floor and I personally know of techniques that involve putting the attention on the solar plexus area. I'm glad that we're learning about the importance of this area. But when you say that some are more susceptible than others, what does that mean exactly? That they experience more objectively observable benefits and for longer periods of time? That their vagal tone index improves most quickly but then also returns to original state most quickly? Definitely a rich angle on the research. Some fMRI work could also be done. See what parts of the brain are becoming active and when, etc. What comes to mind is Tara Bennett Goleman explaining the brain neural pathways like ruts in a dirt road. The more one thinks the same thought, the deeper that rut gets and the more likely one is to think that thought again. Conversely, even ONE time thinking a different thought or taking a different course of action allows new neural pathways to be activated. Could be especially helpful with addictions. Extending this metaphor, I'd say what Paul Wong's neutralizing process does is fill up those ruts in the road so that all neural pathways are equally open to being followed. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Emily, There's doctor Grof on the internet who states that stimulation of the vagus nerve can result in hallucinations similar to the effect of LSD. IMO, the long meditation practice during the TM rounding sessions more likely is stimulating this nerve. Thus, we hear many unusual experiences during these sessions. JR --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn wrote: Here's some information on the vagus nerve http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/grossanatomy/h_n/cn/cn1/cn10.htm From: Share Long To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being  The vagus nerve connection to placebo effect makes sense to me because I've heard that it's connected to fight or flight, begins in solar plexus, ends in bottom of pelvic floor. Personally I've observed that when fear of death arises, usually there's a tightness in my solar plexus. I know of one therapist who studied a technique that involved relaxing the pelvic floor and I personally know of techniques that involve putting the attention on the solar plexus area. I'm glad that we're learning about the importance of this area.   But when you say that some are more susceptible than others, what does that mean exactly? That they experience more objectively observable benefits and for longer periods of time? That their vagal tone index improves most quickly but then also returns to original state most quickly? Definitely a rich angle on the research. Some fMRI work could also be done. See what parts of the brain are becoming active and when, etc. What comes to mind is Tara Bennett Goleman explaining the brain neural pathways like ruts in a dirt road. The more one thinks the same thought, the deeper that rut gets and the more likely one is to think that thought again. Conversely, even ONE time thinking a different thought or taking a different course of action allows new neural pathways to be activated. Could be especially helpful with addictions. Extending this metaphor, I'd say what Paul Wong's neutralizing process does is fill up those ruts in the road so that all neural pathways are equally open to being followed. From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long  wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the  journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Nor should you. Xeno is using the term so broadly and loosely that it gets diluted to the point of meaninglessness. Lourdes is a reasonable example; people go there with the expectation of being cured of a specific ailment, which either occurs or does not occur. Kumbh Mela is not, at least as the effects of attendance were described in the study that started this discussion. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Test: Reply to post #333048 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. If that is what he meant, I wouldn't dispute it. I don't think he's saying what Barry says below, but he can chime in if he wants and clarify. It's Barry who is trying to mislead you by misrepresenting the point I was making, which he has chosen not to address. I've made that point clear in other posts, so I won't go into it again. Basically it has to do with discriminating between what sorts of activities and results can be said to involve the placebo effect and which cannot. Quite obviously it's inappropriate to claim, as Barry did, that the results reported in the study that began this discussion are a result of the placebo effect. It appears that Barry read no more than the headline before making his claim. All of what he writes here is intended to distract attention from my point. The modern understand of that which triggers the placebo effect is that it could be pretty much *anything*. A person wearing a white coat, a person handing you a pill to take, whether the pill is inert or real, even the language used by a supposed physician or tester, and whether or not they have a friendly beside manner or not. Despite the way that authfriend is trying to mislead you here, *anything* that triggers a belief in the subject that their condition -- whether it be physical, mental, or spiritual -- will improve as a result of what is offered (even if what is offered is a technique, such as TM), there is a high probability that for many people, it *will* improve. At the very least, temporarily. Science has not yet completely pinned down the mechanics of what makes one person more susceptible to the placebo effect than another person, but they are working on it furiously. At least one study published in the journal Psychological Health indicates that it may have something to do with the vagus nerve, and the condition of one's vagal tone index. Another study published by PLoSOne shows that it may be genetic, and a result of the catechol- O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, which regulates dopamine production. But you can be sure they're working on the issue, because at present the placebo effect is costing pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars per year. They can no longer get new drugs released, because they cannot prove that they have any more effect than an inert sugar pill -- a placebo. Even drugs that have been on the market for years are now unable to replicate the original research that allowed them to be marketed, because these now-common and commonly- prescribed drugs can't perform any better than a placebo, either. So they're working furiously to try to understand the placebo effect, and to figure out who is more prone to it than others, so that they can use this information when finding subjects for drug and psychological trials. The idea is -- eliminate those with a high propensity to imagine good effects from a non-drug (those sensitive or more prone to the placebo effect) and form both your drug groups and your placebo groups from a population that is *not* as sensitive to placebos, and drug testing might get back on track again. But basically *anything* can be a placebo. Something you hear at a lecture, something you read, some technique someone tells you to do, or even some pilgrimage someone tells you to take. Those who are placebo-prone will get some benefit from it, whether there is any legitimate reason for the benefit or not. THAT is what I believe is happening with the Kumbh Mela. It is *classic* placebo, with centuries of PR touting the sup- posed benefits of going there and bathing in sewage at the propitious times of year. And I say this knowing that *I* get high and perceive benefits from going to places of power myself. Part of me would like to believe that the benefits I perceive from doing so has something to do with the nature of the place, but another part of me knows that it is more likely a placebo effect. Either way, I'll still keep going to those places, because I like the effect... placebo effect or otherwise. From: authfriend To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 9:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
It's happened to me once or twice recently, Xeno. More often, I've gotten the Cannot retrieve... error message when I've hit the Reply button. Usually refreshing a time or two gives me the Reply window. If I'm remembering correctly, when Cannot retrieve... has come up when I've tried to *Send* a reply, a refresh takes me back to the Reply window, but whatever I've written is gone. It's sporadic and apparently random. There's nothing wrong with the post itself or, most likely, your machine-- although I *think* this started happening right after I installed the latest IE8 update. Not sure, though. When Yahoo is misbehaving and eating replies, I try to remember, right before clicking Send, to copy what I've written into Notepad (Windows's text editor). That way if the reply disappears into Yahoo's maw, I can give it another go instead of having to reconstruct what I wrote. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: Test: Reply to post #333048 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Yikes! Then maybe I didn't really understand what Xeno was saying. Xeno, what did you mean? My interpretation was that the placebo effect can enter an individual's system by many avenues, meaning of the individuality: ego, emotions, thoughts, physical imbalances, environmental factors, etc. And if he did so he is correct. If that is what he meant, I wouldn't dispute it. I don't think he's saying what Barry says below, but he can chime in if he wants and clarify. It's Barry who is trying to mislead you by misrepresenting the point I was making, which he has chosen not to address. I've made that point clear in other posts, so I won't go into it again. Basically it has to do with discriminating between what sorts of activities and results can be said to involve the placebo effect and which cannot. Quite obviously it's inappropriate to claim, as Barry did, that the results reported in the study that began this discussion are a result of the placebo effect. It appears that Barry read no more than the headline before making his claim. All of what he writes here is intended to distract attention from my point.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Since the placebo effect seems to work, then isn't it reasonable to study the underlying factors involved in that? Why does the placebo effect work? In the TED talk below, Dan Gilbert talks about what makes people happy, which seems connected to this topic of placebos. Only 20 minutes and he's a very lively and engaging speaker. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:04 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: Since the placebo effect seems to work, then isn't it reasonable to study the underlying factors involved in that? The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. But post something positive about mindfullness and he'll be full of praise.  Why does the placebo effect work? In the TED talk below, Dan Gilbert talks about what makes people happy, which seems connected to this topic of placebos. Only 20 minutes and he's a very lively and engaging speaker.   http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html From: turquoiseb To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:04 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. Au contraire, Pierre. If your idea of good news about Hinduism is millions of people rushing to bathe in a shit-filled, corpse-filled river as if that's the holiest thing they can imagine happening in 12 years is cool, by all means talk about it all you want.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect. And what a powerful effect that is. It all comes down to the mind and perception and by gum, if you think you feel better, more enriched, enlivened, happy then who's to say you aren't? What is real is pretty subjective most of the time, especially if it has to do with what you are feeling (as in improvement of physical and mental well-being). So no matter what you want to call it placebo or otherwise, if you feel great that's a pretty good indicator something positive (relatively speaking) happened.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. Au contraire, Pierre. If your idea of good news about Hinduism is millions of people rushing to bathe in a shit-filled, corpse-filled river as if that's the holiest thing they can imagine happening in 12 years is cool, by all means talk about it all you want. Break it down any way you want to there Turkey but I figure anyone who can do that and not die is probably experiencing some very holy intervention and effect indeed. There is a God, and probably lots of Gods after all! Rock on India.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. turquoiseb: If your idea of good news about Hinduism is millions of people rushing to bathe in a shit-filled, corpse-filled river as if that's the holiest thing they can imagine happening in 12 years... As opposed to thousands of people rushing by a Dutch shit-filled river on a bicycle? LoL! It's alright I guess to live on a houseboat or in an apartment on a canal like you do, but I wouldn't want to take a swim in a canal. On the other hand, the river in Allahabad is quite nice, if you like cold water.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Does this qualify? http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MEDITATING_MARINES?SITE=APSEC\ TION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULTCTIME=2013-01-19-14-32-11 http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MEDITATING_MARINES?SITE=APSE\ CTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULTCTIME=2013-01-19-14-32-11 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. But post something positive about mindfullness and he'll be full of praise.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect. And what a powerful effect that is. It all comes down to the mind and perception and by gum, if you think you feel better, more enriched, enlivened, happy then who's to say you aren't? What is real is pretty subjective most of the time, especially if it has to do with what you are feeling (as in improvement of physical and mental well-being). So no matter what you want to call it placebo or otherwise, if you feel great that's a pretty good indicator something positive (relatively speaking) happened. Either Barry has no idea what the placebo effect is, or he's just doing his button-pushing number.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. Au contraire, Pierre. If your idea of good news about Hinduism is millions of people rushing to bathe in a shit-filled, corpse-filled river as if that's the holiest thing they can imagine happening in 12 years is cool, by all means talk about it all you want. That seems like a pretty odd response from a person who boasts about his Tantric view of life, doesn't it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Barry never DID understand the difference between Tantra, and Tauntra - sleeping in class again...:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. Au contraire, Pierre. If your idea of good news about Hinduism is millions of people rushing to bathe in a shit-filled, corpse-filled river as if that's the holiest thing they can imagine happening in 12 years is cool, by all means talk about it all you want. That seems like a pretty odd response from a person who boasts about his Tantric view of life, doesn't it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, doctordumbass@... wrote: Barry never DID understand the difference between Tantra, and Tauntra Or Tantrum. - sleeping in class again...:-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 wrote: The Turq doesn't want positive news related to Hinduism, period. Au contraire, Pierre. If your idea of good news about Hinduism is millions of people rushing to bathe in a shit-filled, corpse-filled river as if that's the holiest thing they can imagine happening in 12 years is cool, by all means talk about it all you want. That seems like a pretty odd response from a person who boasts about his Tantric view of life, doesn't it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event Otherwise known as the placebo effect. And what a powerful effect that is. It all comes down to the mind and perception and by gum, if you think you feel better, more enriched, enlivened, happy then who's to say you aren't? What is real is pretty subjective most of the time, especially if it has to do with what you are feeling (as in improvement of physical and mental well-being). So no matter what you want to call it placebo or otherwise, if you feel great that's a pretty good indicator something positive (relatively speaking) happened. authfriend: Either Barry has no idea what the placebo effect is, Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo or he's just doing his button-pushing number. Some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event authfriend: Either Barry has no idea what the placebo effect is, Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect. Right. Only attending Kumbh Mela isn't a treatment, any more than going to the circus or a great movie or having a wonderful dinner out or a terrific date or watching a game won by your favorite team. If the boost you get from doing something you enjoy is dismissed as the placebo effect, the phrase becomes meaningless.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams wrote: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being of Pilgrims; Positive impact remains even after the event authfriend: Either Barry has no idea what the placebo effect is, Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect. Right. Only attending Kumbh Mela isn't a treatment, any more than going to the circus or a great movie or having a wonderful dinner out or a terrific date or watching a game won by your favorite team. If the boost you get from doing something you enjoy is dismissed as the placebo effect, the phrase becomes meaningless. Welcome to another episode of Dumb Cunts Double Down, where the aforementioned DCs try to pretend that they haven't just made asses of themselves, and wind up making even greater asses of themselves. Any pilgrimage with a *promised outcome* is a placebo. Anyone who goes on such a pilgrimage *expecting that outcome* is invoking the placebo effect. To claim that the Kumbh Mela does not promise anything is one of the dumbest things this particular dumb cunt has ever said. Bathing in the holy waters at this auspicious time is said to wash away your karmic debt. Therefore, it is literally a shortcut to spiritual liberation (moksha), the liberation from the cycle of birth and death. The holy learned men who assemble at the Mela to take holy bath exude spiritual vibrations that pave way for the purity of mind and soul of other people attending the Mela. Maha Kumbh mela has a lot of religious significance for people in India. It is said that whosoever performs the holy bathing ritual with pure mind and with complete trust in the divinity, derives maximum benefits. Maha Kumbh Mela is celebrated at those spots, where the sacred nectar had fallen at the time of battle between the demons and Gods. During the Maha Kumbh mela, the devotees bask in the nectar or amrit. Here 'Amrit' refers to the light of knowledge that will awaken your inner conscience and pave way for attaining enlightenment. To understand the significance of the Kumbha Mela and the important role that it plays in the spirituality of India, it is helpful to know something about the background of the sacred Ganges River. The devout believe that simply by bathing in the Ganges one is freed from their past sins (karma), and thus one becomes eligible for liberation from the cycle of birth and death. Of course it is said that a pure lifestyle is also required after taking bath, otherwise one will again be burdened by karmic reactions .The pilgrims come from all walks of life, traveling long distances and tolerating many physical discomforts, such as sleeping in the open air in near freezing weather. They undergo these difficulties just to receive the benefit of taking a bath in the sacred river at Kumbha Mela. And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. The setup for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. AND, for those who actually believe such promises, there might be some payoff, however imaginary or moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. The setup for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. AND, for those who actually believe such promises, there might be some payoff, however imaginary or moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. The setup for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. AND, for those who actually believe such promises, there might be some payoff, however imaginary or moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. The setup for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Go Niners (NFC Championship - vs. Falcons)!!! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. AND, for those who actually believe such promises, there might be some payoff, however imaginary or moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. The setup for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* knows about the placebo effect and how it works. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would likely be difficult or impossible as a pilgrimage is a situation where one cannot effectively apply scientific controls. Both sides of this 'debate' are valid, as to causality. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. Suppose one did a study on the effect of chewing gum flavours in a spiritual community. If one of the flavours was Juicy Fruit and the other Lotus Blossom, you would have to control for some sort of expectation: Juicy Fruit might be associated in the mind, in memory, with baseball cards or crass, commercial products one frequented with as a child, hile a lotus is in some quarters considered a spiritual symbol. One might reason, based on the way placebos work, that in this case Juicy Fruit gum would have less placebo effect than Lotus Blossom gum, and that male subjects would perceive these products differently than women, and the study would have to initiate controls for this possibility. AND, for those who actually believe such promises, there might be some payoff, however imaginary or moodmakey it might be in actuality. Whatever floats yer boat. If you feel that bathing with millions of other people in a vast river full of shit and corpses is going to make you well or make you more spiritual, maybe it will. Better that you should go there than me. The setup for these pilgrims couldn't be more placebo if it were dispensed by a doctor in a white coat. But it was good of the DC to demonstrate how little *she* knows about the placebo effect and how it works.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: snip Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. Mmmm. Like attending the World Series? You missed the point *again*, Xeno. If a term is used too loosely, it begins to lose meaning.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being
Xeno, I appreciate especially when you say below, ...the many avenues by which it can enter... I'd never thought of placebo in that way. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:35 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Study: Participating in MahaKumbh improves physical and mental well-being --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: And from the official website of the Kumbh Mela: It's the mythological history of India and the sacred religious texts that bind us carnal souls to an eternal hope - things will be better, without the ever-imminent fear of them getting worse that cripples us here. 'An eternal life free of sins' is the promise that comes attached with the magnificent event of Kumbh Mela. It's a promise to which millions want to be bound with, and it is this promise that has made Kumbh Mela what it is today. My bad. On second glance this does not appear to be any kind of official website, just one trying to sell tours there. But it is downright silly to pretend that there are no promises of benefits made about attending the Kumbh Mela. Sorry, no, you've stepped in it again. I never said there were no promises of benefits made about attending. And of course the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life free of sins is not one that was measured by the study. All it looked at was the reported well-being of the pilgrims after attending. Nor did the study's conclusions aver that anything mystically spiritual happened to the pilgrims to improve their well-being. Rather, it was the communal experience that did it--very much like attending a ball game. So you've gone out on a limb again, it snapped in two, and you've done yet another face-plant. Everyody here knows that when you make an ass of yourself and someone points it out, you try to go after the person in an attempt to save face. Almost always, as in this case, you lose even *more* face. This has happened to you countless times since I first encountered you 17 years ago, and you still haven't gotten that when you make a mistake, you'll look a whole lot better admitting it. That's why it's such fun to correct you and watch you do it to yourself all over again, as if you somehow think it's going to be *different* this time. And you know, you can tell when he is REALLY smarting because he drags out the shopworn DC moniker. That thing is so tatty, moth-eaten and ugly I don't know why he hasn't taken it to the dump years ago. But I guess if he did he would actually have to come up with something else he thinks will really get the women going. Barry is not exactly known for his expansive repertoire; he likes to stick with the tried and true. Ah. these jovial discussions. After all the research done on the placebo effect, one can with fair confidence assume that in any situation where people are either expecting a result, or are engaged in some activity in which they have an invested belief, the placebo effect is probably operating full blast. High quality studies done at NIH in the last ten years or so on various alternative medicine treatments seem to indicate that it is entirely the placebo effect that produces a result from these treatments. We could expect the effect to operate where people are on pilgrimages to various locations, such a Lourdes, etc., though proving it to any degree would likely be difficult or impossible as a pilgrimage is a situation where one cannot effectively apply scientific controls. Both sides of this 'debate' are valid, as to causality. Research on activities with spiritual themes historically have tended to be sloppy with regard to evaluating the presence and strength of the placebo effect, and the many avenues by which it can enter and confound results. Suppose one did a study on the effect of chewing gum flavours in a spiritual community. If one of the flavours was Juicy Fruit and the other Lotus Blossom, you would have to control for some sort of expectation: Juicy Fruit might be associated in the mind, in memory, with baseball cards or crass, commercial products one frequented with as a child, hile a lotus is in some quarters considered a spiritual symbol. One might reason, based on the way placebos work, that in this case Juicy Fruit gum would have less placebo effect than Lotus Blossom gum, and that male subjects would perceive these products differently than women, and the study would have
