[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Do we agree so far? iranitea: Shankara, like Nagarjuna, was adhering to the doctrine of two truths... According to Vidyasankar: ...it is clear that the GK has been written in the context of a vedAntic dialogue with various schools of mahAyAna buddhism, more prominently the yogAcAra and madhyamaka schools. For a lucid exposition of gauDapAda vis a vis adwaita read: http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/gaudapada.html 1. Excerpt from mANDUkya kArikA IV by gauDapAda: Duality is only an appearance; non-duality is the real truth. The object exists as an object for the knowing subject; but it does not exist outside of conciousness because the distinction of subject and object is within conciousness. Both Sankhya and Yoga are concerned with the two principles: Purusha and prakriti. Prakriti is composed of the 32 tattwas which are maintained by the three constituents of nature, namely the three gunas. You should know that the Purusha is completely and totally separate from the prakriti, that's why they call it the Transcendental Absolute. So, we have relative and absolute qualities of life, a material existence and another - which is beyond the forces born of nature. The force of prakriti is called samsara, which has been described by Shakya the Muni as a like a 'wheel', eternally in motion, with twelve spokes symbolizing the 'Twelve-fold Chain of Causation', much like the whirling flames that shoot out as God Shiva does the 'Tandava Dance'. The wheel then, symbolizes the revolving cycle of transmigration, brought about by the law of cause and effect, or karma. According to the Shakya, the purpose of yoga is to thin out the taints of past karma, the samkaras. The Adi Shankara agrees with this in his commentary on the 'Vivarna of Vyasa on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras' and MMY seems to agree when he stated that 'TM' is NOT the cause of enlightenment. The practice simply provides the ideal opportunity for the transcending. Patanjali says: When thought ceases, the Transcendental Absolute stands by itself, refers to Itself, as a witness to the world - (YS I.1.3} tada drastuh svarupe vasthanam.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
emptybill: Shankara saved some of his most pointed criticisms for the Buddhists of his day, particularly the Vijnanavada. Apparently Shankara seems not to have anything to say about the two most important schools, Shunyavada and the Vijnanavada - what he criticizes is in fact Svatantra. He did not at all touch real Vijnanavada according to Chandrahar Sharma. Gaudapada, who composed the first Adwaita Vedanta literature is in agreement with the best of Mahayana Buddhism and refers to Buddha as the 'wisest of men'! In Shankara there is no reference to either Asanga or Vasubandhu, with the exception of the Alaya. Sharma says, On the other hand, we find verses quoted from Dinnaga and Dharmakirti and their views correctly exposed and criticized. Reality is Pure Conciousness; external objects do not exist outside thought. Reality can be directly realized by transcending the subject-object duality. - Vasubandhu There are parallels between some of Gaudapada's statements and the views of Vijnanavada because they both draw from the same milieu of philosophic discourse. In a nutshell, Vijnanavada regards Consciousness as absolute. Shankara is an improvement on Vasubandhu as well as Gaudapada who agrees with Vasubandhu. Compare: 1. Excerpt from mANDUkya kArikA IV by gauDapAda: Duality is only an appearance; non-duality is the real truth. The object exists as an object for the knowing subject; but it does not exist outside of conciousness because the distinction of subject and object is within conciousness Sharma, p. 245-246. (vimshAtika-Vrtti on kArikA 1, p. 114. IV 25-27). 2. Excerpt from mahAyAna sutra lAnkarA by asAnga maitreyAnAtha: Pure conciousness is the only Reality. By its nature, it is Self-luminous (XIII, 13). Thus shaking off duality, he directly percieves the Absolute which is the unity underlying phenomena (dharmadAtu) (VI, 7) Sharma, p. 112-113. Better give up Wiki O' Willy and go get some authentic sources. Work cited: 'A Critical Survey of Indian Philosophy' by Chandrahar Sharma, M.A., D. Phil., D. Litt., LL.B., Shastri, Dept. of Phil., Benares Hindu U. Rider, 1960
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
emptybill: This clearly predates Gautama Shakyamuni by a good 150-200 years... Maybe you should state the actual dates of the historical Buddha. One famous Upanishad is traditionally assigned to the keeping of the Jyotirmath, one of the four mathas established by the Adi Shankara in 812 A.D. Since the time of the first Shankaracahraya, Trotaka Saraswati, this scripture has been recited on a daily basis at the Badrika Ashram, Himalayas. The Mandukhya Upanishad is the keystone in the arch of Shankara's Adwaita Vedanta. The scripture was made famous by Gaudapadacharya, the teacher of the teacher of Shankara. Gaudapada composed a famous Karika on Mundakhya, and Shankara composed a commentary on both. and belies the claim that the whispered wisdom lineage of Upanishad Jñana was just dressed up Buddhism... Well, I guess if there were Upanishads that mentioned 'Pure Consciousness' as the Ultimate Reality the historical Buddha would have mentioned them, since he pretty accurately deliniated all the philisopical schools prevalent in his day, such as the Ajivikas and the nihilist Carvaka. It is a fact that there is a profound similarity between the philosophies of Gaudapada and Nagarjuna. Gaudapada says: There are some (shunyavadins) who uphold non-dualism (advayavada) and reject both the extreme views of being and non-being, of production and destruction and thus emphatically proclaim the doctrine of no-origination. We approve, says Gaudapada, of the doctrine of no-origination proclaimed by them. Gaudapada: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudapada
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Willy You can't just Wiki you way through this stuff. I recommend the classic reference compendium by Karl Potter : Advaita Vedânta up to Shankara and His Pupils which is published as a volume in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies. There you will find many of Shankara's arguments referencing Vijñanavada and a rather curt dismissal of Shunyavada. By the way , the word vijñana (in Vijñana-vada) is cognate with Greek dianoia (to distinguish or to know apart)) and the Latin word discernere (to see apart). It does not mean consciousness (sam-jña-na) Thus Vijñana-matra means mere (matra) discernment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: emptybill: This clearly predates Gautama Shakyamuni by a good 150-200 years... Maybe you should state the actual dates of the historical Buddha. One famous Upanishad is traditionally assigned to the keeping of the Jyotirmath, one of the four mathas established by the Adi Shankara in 812 A.D. Since the time of the first Shankaracahraya, Trotaka Saraswati, this scripture has been recited on a daily basis at the Badrika Ashram, Himalayas. The Mandukhya Upanishad is the keystone in the arch of Shankara's Adwaita Vedanta. The scripture was made famous by Gaudapadacharya, the teacher of the teacher of Shankara. Gaudapada composed a famous Karika on Mundakhya, and Shankara composed a commentary on both. and belies the claim that the whispered wisdom lineage of Upanishad Jñana was just dressed up Buddhism... Well, I guess if there were Upanishads that mentioned 'Pure Consciousness' as the Ultimate Reality the historical Buddha would have mentioned them, since he pretty accurately deliniated all the philisopical schools prevalent in his day, such as the Ajivikas and the nihilist Carvaka. It is a fact that there is a profound similarity between the philosophies of Gaudapada and Nagarjuna. Gaudapada says: There are some (shunyavadins) who uphold non-dualism (advayavada) and reject both the extreme views of being and non-being, of production and destruction and thus emphatically proclaim the doctrine of no-origination. We approve, says Gaudapada, of the doctrine of no-origination proclaimed by them. Gaudapada: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudapada
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:
Iran I Tea
I find this particular article by Swartz to be an accurate
representation of Shankara's central points about samyag-darshana - the
gnosis of that Self which can never be an object or a subject. About
Swartz's other essays I haven't read and cannot say.
Okay. I have read one longer interview with him in a spiritual magazine, where
he both attacks Neo-Advaitins, and traditionalists ala Dayananda. So I may be a
bit prejudiced. On it's own terms, let's say if you are just interested in
Advaita, sort of in the Ramana way, I can see that what he says is useful.
Just I thought, when he gets into sematics ('There is no Advaita'), and
regarding other traditions, (Visisht Advaita) he is a bit phony.
You speak of samyag darshana. When I look it up on google, I get mainly Jain
sites.
What his booklet does not have is representation and analysis of
Shankara's views about a renunciate lifestyle and how this facilitates
realization of Upanishadic brahmajnana. This is most apparent in
Shankara's Bhagavad Gita Bhasya which is one of the oldest Gita
commentaries still extant. His Bhasya is prior to and quite different
from all commentaries which espouse the 3 sections of 6 chapters
each schema including Maharishi's.
Yes. It is actually said, that he established the gita as a book of authority,
everybody else started to comment on it after him.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@ wrote:
IIRC Shankara did not use the word Advaita for his philosophy, rather
it would have been called Sankhya at the time. Please also bear in mind,
that discrimination, Viveka, was the basis of Shankaras teaching.
Discrimination between Purusha and Prakriti, Brahman and Maya, therefore
one of the works attributed to him is called Vivekachudamani or Crest
jewel of discrimination.
Shankara, like Nagarjuna, was adhering to the doctrine of two truths,
as it is already mentioned in the Upanishads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-truths_doctrine
I have read much, but not yet all of the article by James Swartz, but
I have a hard time believing he represents Shankara in any way. For me
this is more like Neo-Advaita disguised as traditional Advaita
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Shankara's Gita Bhasya:
saNyAsena samyagdarshanena tatpUrvakena vA sarvakarma saNyAsena
Also he uses samyag.darshana.nishta (ni.sthâ=established or
steadfast)
in samyag.darshana (correct seeing or right perception) in Gita
Bhasya 8.24
when explaining that the brahmavid (knower of Brahman) does not depart
on the Northern path (devayana) but is liberated directly through seeing
the Self
and that this liberation is without delay (by traversing a gradual
path).
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote:
Iran I Tea
I find this particular article by Swartz to be an accurate
representation of Shankara's central points about samyag-darshana -
the
gnosis of that Self which can never be an object or a subject. About
Swartz's other essays I haven't read and cannot say.
Okay. I have read one longer interview with him in a spiritual
magazine, where he both attacks Neo-Advaitins, and traditionalists ala
Dayananda. So I may be a bit prejudiced. On it's own terms, let's say if
you are just interested in Advaita, sort of in the Ramana way, I can see
that what he says is useful.
Just I thought, when he gets into sematics ('There is no Advaita'),
and regarding other traditions, (Visisht Advaita) he is a bit phony.
You speak of samyag darshana. When I look it up on google, I get
mainly Jain sites.
What his booklet does not have is representation and analysis of
Shankara's views about a renunciate lifestyle and how this
facilitates
realization of Upanishadic brahmajnana. This is most apparent in
Shankara's Bhagavad Gita Bhasya which is one of the oldest Gita
commentaries still extant. His Bhasya is prior to and quite
different
from all commentaries which espouse the 3 sections of 6 chapters
each schema including Maharishi's.
Yes. It is actually said, that he established the gita as a book of
authority, everybody else started to comment on it after him.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@ wrote:
IIRC Shankara did not use the word Advaita for his philosophy,
rather
it would have been called Sankhya at the time. Please also bear in
mind,
that discrimination, Viveka, was the basis of Shankaras teaching.
Discrimination between Purusha and Prakriti, Brahman and Maya,
therefore
one of the works attributed to him is called Vivekachudamani or
Crest
jewel of discrimination.
Shankara, like Nagarjuna, was adhering to the doctrine of two
truths,
as it is already mentioned in the Upanishads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-truths_doctrine
I have read much, but not yet all of the article by James Swartz,
but
I have a hard time believing he represents Shankara in any way. For
me
this is more like Neo-Advaita disguised as traditional Advaita
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote:
Willy lives in the past and in the opinions of old, tired academics.
Georg Feuerstein points out that the oldest strata of the Upanishads
(Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya)
My wild guess is that the chandoga-s were most closely related
to the Siberian shamanic tradition, and perhaps also for instance
to the Finnish Kalevala. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4
ROFLMAO!
Well, 'chando-ga' (chandaH + ga) means 'chandas-singing', i.e. saama-veda
chaps. ('ga' or 'gai' is the root for example of 'giitaa'). The form
'chaandogya' is, we believe, so called vRddhi-derivative from 'chandoga'. (So,
vRddhi here is 'a' 'aa', or, in H-K: 'A).
chandogam. (%{gai}) ` singer in metre ' , chanter'of the SV.
chAndogya n. ` doctrine of the Chando-gas ' , a Bra1hman2a of the SV.
(including the ChUp.) , Ka1tyS3r ' xxii Pa1n2. 4-3 , 129 Veda7ntas
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@... wrote: --- emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Willy, Very inaccurate statements. Buddhism is not the source of Advaita. Vij�anavada is a Buddhist philosophical school while Yogacara is the theoretical compendium of its practices. Shankara saved some of his most pointed criticisms for the Buddhists of his day, particularly the Vijnanavada. There are parallels between some of Gaudapada's statements and the views of Vijnanavada because they both draw from the same milieu of philosophic discourse. As pointed out by K. A. Krishnaswamy Aiyer, Buddhism and Advaita are fundamentally opposed in five key points: 1. Both say that the world is unreal, but Buddhists mean that it is only a conceptual construct (vikalpa), while Shankara does not think that the world is merely conceptual. Shankara means it in a more literal sense. Gaudapada goes to the very extreme in his karika (commentary) on Mandukya upanishad. Willytex thinks Upanishads came after Shakyamuni which is doubtful. One reason it's called vedanta is because anta means rear end and the upanishads are in the end portion of the vedas. I wonder how Willytex reached such a conclusion. As I understand it, different upanishads were composed at different times., Some well-recognized upanishads are dated from within the last 1000 years, while others may predate Gautama Buddha by nearly as long. Many scholars believe that the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali is a post-Buddhist text, not only time-wise, but the terms seem to be inspired by Buddhist concepts. Likewise with the Mandukya Upanishad. L,
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Willy lives in the past and in the opinions of old, tired academics. Georg Feuerstein points out that the oldest strata of the Upanishads (Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya) My wild guess is that the chandoga-s were most closely related to the Siberian shamanic tradition, and perhaps also for instance to the Finnish Kalevala. ;D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX11bBpuKlU
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Willy lives in the past and in the opinions of old, tired academics. Georg Feuerstein points out that the oldest strata of the Upanishads (Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya) My wild guess is that the chandoga-s were most closely related to the Siberian shamanic tradition, and perhaps also for instance to the Finnish Kalevala. ;D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UfdehDqm4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX11bBpuKlU Well, gAyatrI-mantra (tat savitur vareNyam...) in Siberian shamanic style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS6NEE5Ob4E
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Iran I Tea I find this particular article by Swartz to be an accurate representation of Shankara's central points about samyag-darshana - the gnosis of that Self which can never be an object or a subject. About Swartz's other essays I haven't read and cannot say. What his booklet does not have is representation and analysis of Shankara's views about a renunciate lifestyle and how this facilitates realization of Upanishadic brahmajnana. This is most apparent in Shankara's Bhagavad Gita Bhasya which is one of the oldest Gita commentaries still extant. His Bhasya is prior to and quite different from all commentaries which espouse the 3 sections of 6 chapters each schema including Maharishi's. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote: IIRC Shankara did not use the word Advaita for his philosophy, rather it would have been called Sankhya at the time. Please also bear in mind, that discrimination, Viveka, was the basis of Shankaras teaching. Discrimination between Purusha and Prakriti, Brahman and Maya, therefore one of the works attributed to him is called Vivekachudamani or Crest jewel of discrimination. Shankara, like Nagarjuna, was adhering to the doctrine of two truths, as it is already mentioned in the Upanishads. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-truths_doctrine I have read much, but not yet all of the article by James Swartz, but I have a hard time believing he represents Shankara in any way. For me this is more like Neo-Advaita disguised as traditional Advaita
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Willy, Very inaccurate statements. Buddhism is not the source of Advaita. Vijñanavada is a Buddhist philosophical school while Yogacara is the theoretical compendium of its practices. Shankara saved some of his most pointed criticisms for the Buddhists of his day, particularly the Vijnanavada. There are parallels between some of Gaudapada's statements and the views of Vijnanavada because they both draw from the same milieu of philosophic discourse. As pointed out by K. A. Krishnaswamy Aiyer, Buddhism and Advaita are fundamentally opposed in five key points: 1. Both say that the world is unreal, but Buddhists mean that it is only a conceptual construct (vikalpa), while Shankara does not think that the world is merely conceptual. 2. Momentariness is a cardinal principal of Buddhism consciousness is fundamentally momentary for them. However, in Advaita, consciousness is pure (shuddha), without beginning or end (anadi) and is thoroughly continuous. The momentariness of empirical states of consciousness overlies this continuity. 3. In Buddhism, the self is the ego (I) a conceptual construct that is quite unreal. In Advaita, the Self is the only really Real and is the substrate of all concepts. 4. In Buddhism, avidya causes us to construct continuities (such as the self) where there are none. In Advaita, avidya causes us instead to take what is unreal to be real and what is real to be unreal. 5. Removal of avidya leads to nirvana/blowning out for Buddhists but for Shankara it leads to perfect knowledge (vidya). Better give up Wiki O' Willy and go get some authentic sources. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: emptybill: It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Advaita Vedanta is just a restatement of Vajrayana Buddhism, the 'Consciousness Only' school. Almost all the Upaanishads were composed after the Shakya's passing. According to the consciousness only school, 'chit' is thought, 'citta' is conciousness - 'citta vriti' means the turning of thought in the mind. ''Nirodha' is cessation - the turnings have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made peaceful, 'nirvana'. According to Patanjali, Yoga is concerned with *isolation*, 'kaivalya', from the prakriti; the cessation of the fluctuations of the mindstuff; the attainment of freedom. The problem is, you can't have freewill and be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction in terms, would it not? We are either free or we are not; if free, then there is no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there is either other-power or self-power. The other power is termed 'maya' and the Transcendent Power is termed 'Self-power'. The power of this world is maya, that is, the illusion that we are separate from the Purusha. It's like a veil, that when pulled, reveals the real. All the Vedanta sampradayas accept maya in one form or another. It's a state of mind, where the individual 'wakes up' to reality - comes alive to his own inner bodhi nature. However, there is a trick: maya is not real, yet not unreal, nor both nor neither! According Chaitanya, the exact way that maya produces the world, yet at the same time, remains one in the Purusha, 'adwaita', is really indescribable. Patanjali says: Otherwise you identify with the turning of thoughts - vritti sarupyam itaratra (YS I.1.4). Otherwise, you identify with the thoughts, get overwhelmed by them, and before you know it, you are thinking, 'this is my body, this is my self', and forgetting that you are in reality the Transcendental Person - the Purusha looking over your self.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Willy, Very inaccurate statements. Buddhism is not the source of Advaita. Vijñanavada is a Buddhist philosophical school while Yogacara is the theoretical compendium of its practices. Shankara saved some of his most pointed criticisms for the Buddhists of his day, particularly the Vijnanavada. There are parallels between some of Gaudapada's statements and the views of Vijnanavada because they both draw from the same milieu of philosophic discourse. As pointed out by K. A. Krishnaswamy Aiyer, Buddhism and Advaita are fundamentally opposed in five key points: 1. Both say that the world is unreal, but Buddhists mean that it is only a conceptual construct (vikalpa), while Shankara does not think that the world is merely conceptual. Shankara means it in a more literal sense. Gaudapada goes to the very extreme in his karika (commentary) on Mandukya upanishad. Willytex thinks Upanishads came after Shakyamuni which is doubtful. One reason it's called vedanta is because anta means rear end and the upanishads are in the end portion of the vedas. I wonder how Willytex reached such a conclusion. 2. Momentariness is a cardinal principal of Buddhism consciousness is fundamentally momentary for them. However, in Advaita, consciousness is pure (shuddha), without beginning or end (anadi) and is thoroughly continuous. The momentariness of empirical states of consciousness overlies this continuity. 3. In Buddhism, the self is the ego (I) a conceptual construct that is quite unreal. In Advaita, the Self is the only really Real and is the substrate of all concepts. 4. In Buddhism, avidya causes us to construct continuities (such as the self) where there are none. In Advaita, avidya causes us instead to take what is unreal to be real and what is real to be unreal. 5. Removal of avidya leads to nirvana/blowning out for Buddhists but for Shankara it leads to perfect knowledge (vidya). Better give up Wiki O' Willy and go get some authentic sources. --- Richard J. Williams, richard@ wrote: emptybill: It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Advaita Vedanta is just a restatement of Vajrayana Buddhism, the 'Consciousness Only' school. Almost all the Upaanishads were composed after the Shakya's passing. According to the consciousness only school, 'chit' is thought, 'citta' is conciousness - 'citta vriti' means the turning of thought in the mind. ''Nirodha' is cessation - the turnings have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made peaceful, 'nirvana'. According to Patanjali, Yoga is concerned with *isolation*, 'kaivalya', from the prakriti; the cessation of the fluctuations of the mindstuff; the attainment of freedom. The problem is, you can't have freewill and be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction in terms, would it not? We are either free or we are not; if free, then there is no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there is either other-power or self-power. The other power is termed 'maya' and the Transcendent Power is termed 'Self-power'. The power of this world is maya, that is, the illusion that we are separate from the Purusha. It's like a veil, that when pulled, reveals the real. All the Vedanta sampradayas accept maya in one form or another. It's a state of mind, where the individual 'wakes up' to reality - comes alive to his own inner bodhi nature. However, there is a trick: maya is not real, yet not unreal, nor both nor neither! According Chaitanya, the exact way that maya produces the world, yet at the same time, remains one in the Purusha, 'adwaita', is really indescribable. Patanjali says: Otherwise you identify with the turning of thoughts - vritti sarupyam itaratra (YS I.1.4). Otherwise, you identify with the thoughts, get overwhelmed by them, and before you know it, you are thinking, 'this is my body, this is my self', and forgetting that you are in reality the Transcendental Person - the Purusha looking over your self.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: What is Advaita? This thirty page pamphlet explains why enlightenment is not a permanent experience of a particular state of consciousness, why it is not a thought-free mind, and why karma does not have to be exhausted for liberation. It debunks many of the major misunderstandings about Vedanta and spiritual life in general first and foremost the idea that Vedanta is a philosophy or a school of thought. It carefully explains what Vedanta actually is and highlights several of its most important teachings: cause and effect, the Three State analysis, and the five sheaths. It discusses the Self as bliss confusion, the Self as Knowledge confusion, the Self as Energy confusion, and the Multi-Path confusion. And finally it resolves the issue of the stages of enlightenment. http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/sitehtml/jamesswartz/advaita1.pdf Emptybill, this article was quite a treat and clearly written for the most part. I wonder how many have difficulty matching up descriptions of enlightenment from various traditions, because this subject matter is basically ... nothing ... so descriptions are at best indicative and poetic, hoping one can read between the lines. May your cup be forever empty, emptybill.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Willy lives in the past and in the opinions of old, tired academics. Georg Feuerstein points out that the oldest strata of the Upanishads (Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya) is philologically consonant with the Brahmanas and was transmitted in oral form (in a 750 year period) from the time of the Bharata war around 1500 B.C.E. until 700 B.C.E. This clearly predates Gautama Shakyamuni by a good 150-200 years and belies the claim that the whispered wisdom lineage of Upanishad Jñana was just dressed up Buddhism. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_spock@... wrote: --- emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Willy, Very inaccurate statements. Buddhism is not the source of Advaita. Vijñanavada is a Buddhist philosophical school while Yogacara is the theoretical compendium of its practices. Shankara saved some of his most pointed criticisms for the Buddhists of his day, particularly the Vijnanavada. There are parallels between some of Gaudapada's statements and the views of Vijnanavada because they both draw from the same milieu of philosophic discourse. As pointed out by K. A. Krishnaswamy Aiyer, Buddhism and Advaita are fundamentally opposed in five key points: 1. Both say that the world is unreal, but Buddhists mean that it is only a conceptual construct (vikalpa), while Shankara does not think that the world is merely conceptual. Shankara means it in a more literal sense. Gaudapada goes to the very extreme in his karika (commentary) on Mandukya upanishad. Willytex thinks Upanishads came after Shakyamuni which is doubtful. One reason it's called vedanta is because anta means rear end and the upanishads are in the end portion of the vedas. I wonder how Willytex reached such a conclusion. 2. Momentariness is a cardinal principal of Buddhism consciousness is fundamentally momentary for them. However, in Advaita, consciousness is pure (shuddha), without beginning or end (anadi) and is thoroughly continuous. The momentariness of empirical states of consciousness overlies this continuity. 3. In Buddhism, the self is the ego (I) a conceptual construct that is quite unreal. In Advaita, the Self is the only really Real and is the substrate of all concepts. 4. In Buddhism, avidya causes us to construct continuities (such as the self) where there are none. In Advaita, avidya causes us instead to take what is unreal to be real and what is real to be unreal. 5. Removal of avidya leads to nirvana/blowning out for Buddhists but for Shankara it leads to perfect knowledge (vidya). Better give up Wiki O' Willy and go get some authentic sources. --- Richard J. Williams, richard@ wrote: emptybill: It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Advaita Vedanta is just a restatement of Vajrayana Buddhism, the 'Consciousness Only' school. Almost all the Upaanishads were composed after the Shakya's passing. According to the consciousness only school, 'chit' is thought, 'citta' is conciousness - 'citta vriti' means the turning of thought in the mind. ''Nirodha' is cessation - the turnings have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made peaceful, 'nirvana'. According to Patanjali, Yoga is concerned with *isolation*, 'kaivalya', from the prakriti; the cessation of the fluctuations of the mindstuff; the attainment of freedom. The problem is, you can't have freewill and be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction in terms, would it not? We are either free or we are not; if free, then there is no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there is either other-power or self-power. The other power is termed 'maya' and the Transcendent Power is termed 'Self-power'. The power of this world is maya, that is, the illusion that we are separate from the Purusha. It's like a veil, that when pulled, reveals the real. All the Vedanta sampradayas accept maya in one form or another. It's a state of mind, where the individual 'wakes up' to reality - comes alive to his own inner bodhi nature. However, there is a trick: maya is not real, yet not unreal, nor both nor neither! According Chaitanya, the exact way that maya produces the world, yet at the same time, remains one in the Purusha, 'adwaita', is really indescribable. Patanjali says: Otherwise you identify with the turning of thoughts - vritti sarupyam itaratra (YS I.1.4). Otherwise, you identify with the thoughts, get overwhelmed by them, and before you know it, you are thinking, 'this is my body, this is my self', and forgetting that you are
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Thanks for the feedback. I also found it quite useful. I think it shows the difference between neo-advaita, academic advaita and practice-oriented advaita. After all, he actually called this teaching Brahma-jñana - the essence of the Upanishad Shruti-s. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: What is Advaita? This thirty page pamphlet explains why enlightenment is not a permanent experience of a particular state of consciousness, why it is not a thought-free mind, and why karma does not have to be exhausted for liberation. It debunks many of the major misunderstandings about Vedanta and spiritual life in general first and foremost the idea that Vedanta is a philosophy or a school of thought. It carefully explains what Vedanta actually is and highlights several of its most important teachings: cause and effect, the Three State analysis, and the five sheaths. It discusses the Self as bliss confusion, the Self as Knowledge confusion, the Self as Energy confusion, and the Multi-Path confusion. And finally it resolves the issue of the stages of enlightenment. http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/sitehtml/jamesswartz/advaita1.pdf Emptybill, this article was quite a treat and clearly written for the most part. I wonder how many have difficulty matching up descriptions of enlightenment from various traditions, because this subject matter is basically ... nothing ... so descriptions are at best indicative and poetic, hoping one can read between the lines. May your cup be forever empty, emptybill.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Chaim you are grandstanding again. Is this your new Palace of the Occult? Are you still on that stage even here? Consider reading the article before you comment. It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Ok, I didn't mean to grandstand... I will be sure to read the beginning thread so I know where the conversation started... I'm not sure how long the 'Palace of the Occult' lasted...just a few years...no biggie... I do know that Mr. Hitler thought that the Reich would last a 'Thousand Years'... One thing that has lasted beyond 1945, is the 'World and Individual Trauma' of WWII... Many people in Fairfield, are working out 'Karma' from that time period... Once you get beyond the ego, you can start to 'Feel' that some people were on the Nazi side, and others were exterminated by the Nazis, with Zyclon B, which is the same chemical used to kill 'insects'... So, all of that was 'Pretty Intense Karma'... It is known that Guru Dev, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati performed a Yagya toward to end of the war, that helped to neutralize that negative influence, and Maharishi since that time, spread the 'Knowledge far and wide'... So, this year of 2012, is the 'End of the 13 Hells'... This started when the Spanish conquered the Maya Indian Culture... The Mayans were trying to tell us, that at this time, we would be 'Purging the Deepest Samskars' especially those left over from WWII... WWII was like 'Hitting Botton' of the 13 Hells... At the end of the 13 Hells, we will have a 'New Age' based on more 'Universal Principles'...much as Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, was preparing for us, as they performed the 'Yagya to End WWII'... And the taking on of the 'Deepest Karmas on Earth' by Maharishi agreeing to take on some of the 'Nazi Leadership' from that 'Past Time on Earth'...as well as many 'Holocaust Survivors'... Jai Guru Dev Very true. Maharishi certainly took upon himself the burden to help cleaning up the West after WWII by including many of the former Nazi's and their offspring in the Movement. Many here have experienced the WYMS, all of whom were sons and daughters of higher officers in the third reich. Not to mention many of the early leaders of the Movement who very clearly showed signs of grandiosity and delusion. It's truely a great task Maharishi took upon himself, one of many he solved with flying colours.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
emptybill: What is Advaita? What is Yoga? Both Sankhya and Yoga are concerned with the two principles: Purusha and prakriti. Prakriti is composed of the 32 tattwas which are maintained by the three constituents of nature, namely the three gunas. You should know that the Purusha is completely and totally separate from the prakriti, that's why they call it the Transcendental Absolute. So, we have relative and absolute qualities of life, a material existence and another - which is beyond the forces born of nature. Do we agree so far? The force of prakriti is called samsara, which has been described by Shakya the Muni as a like a 'wheel', eternally in motion, with twelve spokes symbolizing the 'Twelve-fold Chain of Causation', much like the whirling flames that shoot out as God Shiva does the 'Tandava Dance'. The wheel then, symbolizes the revolving cycle of transmigration, brought about by the law of cause and effect, or karma. According to the Shakya, the purpose of yoga is to thin out the taints of past karma, the samkaras. The Adi Shankara agrees with this in his commentary on the 'Vivarna of Vyasa on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras' and MMY seems to agree when he stated that 'TM' is NOT the cause of enlightenment. The practice simply provides the ideal opportunity for the transcending. Patanjali says: When thought ceases, the Transcendental Absolute stands by itself, refers to Itself, as a witness to the world - (YS I.1.3} tada drastuh svarupe vasthanam.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
emptybill: It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Advaita Vedanta is just a restatement of Vajrayana Buddhism, the 'Consciousness Only' school. Almost all the Upaanishads were composed after the Shakya's passing. According to the consciousness only school, 'chit' is thought, 'citta' is conciousness - 'citta vriti' means the turning of thought in the mind. ''Nirodha' is cessation - the turnings have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made peaceful, 'nirvana'. According to Patanjali, Yoga is concerned with *isolation*, 'kaivalya', from the prakriti; the cessation of the fluctuations of the mindstuff; the attainment of freedom. The problem is, you can't have freewill and be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction in terms, would it not? We are either free or we are not; if free, then there is no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there is either other-power or self-power. The other power is termed 'maya' and the Transcendent Power is termed 'Self-power'. The power of this world is maya, that is, the illusion that we are separate from the Purusha. It's like a veil, that when pulled, reveals the real. All the Vedanta sampradayas accept maya in one form or another. It's a state of mind, where the individual 'wakes up' to reality - comes alive to his own inner bodhi nature. However, there is a trick: maya is not real, yet not unreal, nor both nor neither! According Chaitanya, the exact way that maya produces the world, yet at the same time, remains one in the Purusha, 'adwaita', is really indescribable. Patanjali says: Otherwise you identify with the turning of thoughts - vritti sarupyam itaratra (YS I.1.4). Otherwise, you identify with the thoughts, get overwhelmed by them, and before you know it, you are thinking, 'this is my body, this is my self', and forgetting that you are in reality the Transcendental Person - the Purusha looking over your self.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: emptybill: It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Advaita Vedanta is just a restatement of Vajrayana Buddhism, the 'Consciousness Only' school. Almost all the Upaanishads were composed after the Shakya's passing. Where I am coming from, where I just spend the last 3 month, buses have sign-boards saying: Nagarjuna, there is a popular cement brand called Nagarjuna as well, I used to have philosophical discussions with my friend, walking on the street, when a bus, having a huge sign 'Nagarjuna' was just passing by. I think people there don't know much about him, as there are hardly any Buddhists in the population, but about 400 kms north there is this place 'Nagarjunakonda' where Nagarjuna spent most of his life in the forests. According to the consciousness only school, 'chit' is thought, 'citta' is conciousness - 'citta vriti' means the turning of thought in the mind. ''Nirodha' is cessation - the turnings have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made peaceful, 'nirvana'. According to Patanjali, Yoga is concerned with *isolation*, 'kaivalya', from the prakriti; the cessation of the fluctuations of the mindstuff; the attainment of freedom. The problem is, you can't have freewill and be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction in terms, would it not? We are either free or we are not; if free, then there is no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there is either other-power or self-power. The other power is termed 'maya' and the Transcendent Power is termed 'Self-power'. The power of this world is maya, that is, the illusion that we are separate from the Purusha. It's like a veil, that when pulled, reveals the real. All the Vedanta sampradayas accept maya in one form or another. It's a state of mind, where the individual 'wakes up' to reality - comes alive to his own inner bodhi nature. However, there is a trick: maya is not real, yet not unreal, nor both nor neither! According Chaitanya, the exact way that maya produces the world, yet at the same time, remains one in the Purusha, 'adwaita', is really indescribable. Patanjali says: Otherwise you identify with the turning of thoughts - vritti sarupyam itaratra (YS I.1.4). Otherwise, you identify with the thoughts, get overwhelmed by them, and before you know it, you are thinking, 'this is my body, this is my self', and forgetting that you are in reality the Transcendental Person - the Purusha looking over your self.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote: Where I am coming from, where I just spend the last 3 month, buses have sign-boards saying: Nagarjuna, there is a popular cement brand called Nagarjuna as well, I used to have philosophical discussions with my friend, walking on the street, when a bus, having a huge sign 'Nagarjuna' was just passing by. I think people there don't know much about him, as there are hardly any Buddhists in the population, but about 400 kms north there is this place 'Nagarjunakonda' where Nagarjuna spent most of his life in the forests. http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1hl=enclient=ubuntusa=Nchannel=fsb\ iw=1167bih=568tbm=ischtbnid=Jp7JTUT2JIWOoM:imgrefurl=http://www.face\ book.com/people/Nagarjuna-Cement/11705356588docid=qPQP7XhwlE5KJMim\ gurl=http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41633_11705356588_\ 4896_n.jpgw=133h=149ei=aD7bT_ziD8zN4QSD3MDWCgzoom=1 http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1hl=enclient=ubuntusa=Nchannel=fsb\ iw=1167bih=568tbm=ischtbnid=vEMtZOkOFVZsfM:imgrefurl=http://www.prot\ ocolindia.com/clients_cement.htmldocid=xREOKCJtMjfaYMimgurl=http://www\ .protocolindia.com/client_logo/Nagarjuna-Cement.jpgw=150h=100ei=aD7bT\ _ziD8zN4QSD3MDWCgzoom=1
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@ wrote: Where I am coming from, where I just spend the last 3 month, buses have sign-boards saying: Nagarjuna, there is a popular cement brand called Nagarjuna as well, I used to have philosophical discussions with my friend, walking on the street, when a bus, having a huge sign ' Nagarjuna' was just passing by. I think people there don't know much about him, as there are hardly any Buddhists in the population, but about 400 kms north there is this place 'Nagarjunakonda' where Nagarjuna spent most of his life in the forests. http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1hl=enclient=ubuntusa=Nchannel=fsb\ iw=1167bih=568tbm=ischtbnid=Jp7JTUT2JIWOoM:imgrefurl=http://www.face\ book.com/people/Nagarjuna-Cement/11705356588docid=qPQP7XhwlE5KJMim\ gurl=http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41633_11705356588_\ 4896_n.jpgw=133h=149ei=aD7bT_ziD8zN4QSD3MDWCgzoom=1 http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1hl=enclient=ubuntusa=Nchannel=fsb\ iw=1167bih=568tbm=ischtbnid=vEMtZOkOFVZsfM:imgrefurl=http://www.prot\ ocolindia.com/clients_cement.htmldocid=xREOKCJtMjfaYMimgurl=http://www\ .protocolindia.com/client_logo/Nagarjuna-Cement.jpgw=150h=100ei=aD7bT\ _ziD8zN4QSD3MDWCgzoom=1 As I've mentioned before, in the days shortly after I walked away from the TMO, I shared an apartment with a fellow who went off to TTC in India. When he returned he brought me a gift -- a bottle of Guru brand beer. I kept it for many years, although I never tasted it because he told me it was really, really, really bad. I always loved the idea, and used to bring it out at parties and entertain with a comedy routine based on what its *advertising campaign must have been like. Can't you imagine it? A bunch of way holy holy men trudge up the hill to their caves in the evening, after a day of working with their disciples down in the town below. They strip off the tops of their dhotis and sit around in their undershirts, complaining for a few minutes about the long, hard grind of their work day. But then some- one brings out a six-pack of Guru. They pass the bottles around, pop the tops off of them, and take a sip, and the heavy karmas of the day just fade away, as they raise their bottles and toast each other, saying, Man, that's a Guru! :-) [http://www.indiaoverland.biz/forum-img/guru.jpg] http://www.indiaoverland.biz/forum-img/guru.jpg http://www.indiaoverland.biz/forum-img/guru.jpg
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: emptybill: What is Advaita? What is Yoga? Both Sankhya and Yoga are concerned with the two principles: Purusha and prakriti. Prakriti is composed of the 32 tattwas which are maintained by the three constituents of nature, namely the three gunas. You should know that the Purusha is completely and totally separate from the prakriti, that's why they call it the Transcendental Absolute. So, we have relative and absolute qualities of life, a material existence and another - which is beyond the forces born of nature. Do we agree so far? The force of prakriti is called samsara, which has been described by Shakya the Muni as a like a 'wheel', eternally in motion, with twelve spokes symbolizing the 'Twelve-fold Chain of Causation', much like the whirling flames that shoot out as God Shiva does the 'Tandava Dance'. The wheel then, symbolizes the revolving cycle of transmigration, brought about by the law of cause and effect, or karma. According to the Shakya, the purpose of yoga is to thin out the taints of past karma, the samkaras. The Adi Shankara agrees with this in his commentary on the 'Vivarna of Vyasa on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras' and MMY seems to agree when he stated that 'TM' is NOT the cause of enlightenment. The practice simply provides the ideal opportunity for the transcending. Patanjali says: When thought ceases, the Transcendental Absolute stands by itself, refers to Itself, as a witness to the world - (YS I.1.3} tada drastuh svarupe vasthanam. IIRC Shankara did not use the word Advaita for his philosophy, rather it would have been called Sankhya at the time. Please also bear in mind, that discrimination, Viveka, was the basis of Shankaras teaching. Discrimination between Purusha and Prakriti, Brahman and Maya, therefore one of the works attributed to him is called Vivekachudamani or Crest jewel of discrimination. Shankara, like Nagarjuna, was adhering to the doctrine of two truths, as it is already mentioned in the Upanishads. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-truths_doctrine I have read much, but not yet all of the article by James Swartz, but I have a hard time believing he represents Shankara in any way. For me this is more like Neo-Advaita disguised as traditional Advaita
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, iranitea no_reply@ wrote: Where I am coming from, where I just spend the last 3 month, buses have sign-boards saying: Nagarjuna, there is a popular cement brand called Nagarjuna as well, I used to have philosophical discussions with my friend, walking on the street, when a bus, having a huge sign ' Nagarjuna' was just passing by. I think people there don't know much about him, as there are hardly any Buddhists in the population, but about 400 kms north there is this place 'Nagarjunakonda' where Nagarjuna spent most of his life in the forests. http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1hl=enclient=ubuntusa=Nchannel=fsb\ iw=1167bih=568tbm=ischtbnid=Jp7JTUT2JIWOoM:imgrefurl=http://www.face\ book.com/people/Nagarjuna-Cement/11705356588docid=qPQP7XhwlE5KJMim\ gurl=http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41633_11705356588_\ 4896_n.jpgw=133h=149ei=aD7bT_ziD8zN4QSD3MDWCgzoom=1 http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1hl=enclient=ubuntusa=Nchannel=fsb\ iw=1167bih=568tbm=ischtbnid=vEMtZOkOFVZsfM:imgrefurl=http://www.prot\ ocolindia.com/clients_cement.htmldocid=xREOKCJtMjfaYMimgurl=http://www\ .protocolindia.com/client_logo/Nagarjuna-Cement.jpgw=150h=100ei=aD7bT\ _ziD8zN4QSD3MDWCgzoom=1 As I've mentioned before, in the days shortly after I walked away from the TMO, I shared an apartment with a fellow who went off to TTC in India. When he returned he brought me a gift -- a bottle of Guru brand beer. I kept it for many years, although I never tasted it because he told me it was really, really, really bad. I always loved the idea, and used to bring it out at parties and entertain with a comedy routine based on what its *advertising campaign must have been like. Can't you imagine it? A bunch of way holy holy men trudge up the hill to their caves in the evening, after a day of working with their disciples down in the town below. They strip off the tops of their dhotis and sit around in their undershirts, complaining for a few minutes about the long, hard grind of their work day. But then some- one brings out a six-pack of Guru. They pass the bottles around, pop the tops off of them, and take a sip, and the heavy karmas of the day just fade away, as they raise their bottles and toast each other, saying, Man, that's a Guru! :-) [http://www.indiaoverland.biz/forum-img/guru.jpg] http://www.indiaoverland.biz/forum-img/guru.jpg http://www.indiaoverland.biz/forum-img/guru.jpg Yes, great story. That's very much like India, the profane and the 'holy' are very often close together. Don't forget Durga Wines. At school walls you find paintings of celebrities like Buddha and Che Chevara, together with other saints and social reformers.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Well said, Richard. I love it when you write like this. ( Go figure.) *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams richard@... wrote: emptybill: It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Advaita Vedanta is just a restatement of Vajrayana Buddhism, the 'Consciousness Only' school. Almost all the Upaanishads were composed after the Shakya's passing. According to the consciousness only school, 'chit' is thought, 'citta' is conciousness - 'citta vriti' means the turning of thought in the mind. ''Nirodha' is cessation - the turnings have stopped, ceased, come to a halt, stilled, blown out, made peaceful, 'nirvana'. According to Patanjali, Yoga is concerned with *isolation*, 'kaivalya', from the prakriti; the cessation of the fluctuations of the mindstuff; the attainment of freedom. The problem is, you can't have freewill and be under the power of another; that would be a contradiction in terms, would it not? We are either free or we are not; if free, then there is no need for yoga practice. If we are not free, then by what means are we to free ourselves? It's that simple - there is either other-power or self-power. The other power is termed 'maya' and the Transcendent Power is termed 'Self-power'. The power of this world is maya, that is, the illusion that we are separate from the Purusha. It's like a veil, that when pulled, reveals the real. All the Vedanta sampradayas accept maya in one form or another. It's a state of mind, where the individual 'wakes up' to reality - comes alive to his own inner bodhi nature. However, there is a trick: maya is not real, yet not unreal, nor both nor neither! According Chaitanya, the exact way that maya produces the world, yet at the same time, remains one in the Purusha, 'adwaita', is really indescribable. Patanjali says: Otherwise you identify with the turning of thoughts - vritti sarupyam itaratra (YS I.1.4). Otherwise, you identify with the thoughts, get overwhelmed by them, and before you know it, you are thinking, 'this is my body, this is my self', and forgetting that you are in reality the Transcendental Person - the Purusha looking over your self.
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Chaim you are grandstanding again. Is this your new Palace of the Occult? Are you still on that stage even here? Consider reading the article before you comment. It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstract Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Of course intellectually constructed concepts of enlightenment are lame anyway. Only experience counts. On 06/14/2012 11:49 AM, emptybill wrote: Chaim … you are grandstanding again. Is this your new Palace of the Occult? Are you still on that stage … even here? Consider reading the article before you comment. It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robertbabajii_99@... wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstract Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: fairfieldlife-dig...@yahoogroups.com fairfieldlife-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: fairfieldlife-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Chaim you are grandstanding again. Is this your new Palace of the Occult? Are you still on that stage even here? Consider reading the article before you comment. It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. Ok, I didn't mean to grandstand... I will be sure to read the beginning thread so I know where the conversation started... I'm not sure how long the 'Palace of the Occult' lasted...just a few years...no biggie... I do know that Mr. Hitler thought that the Reich would last a 'Thousand Years'... One thing that has lasted beyond 1945, is the 'World and Individual Trauma' of WWII... Many people in Fairfield, are working out 'Karma' from that time period... Once you get beyond the ego, you can start to 'Feel' that some people were on the Nazi side, and others were exterminated by the Nazis, with Zyclon B, which is the same chemical used to kill 'insects'... So, all of that was 'Pretty Intense Karma'... It is known that Guru Dev, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati performed a Yagya toward to end of the war, that helped to neutralize that negative influence, and Maharishi since that time, spread the 'Knowledge far and wide'... So, this year of 2012, is the 'End of the 13 Hells'... This started when the Spanish conquered the Maya Indian Culture... The Mayans were trying to tell us, that at this time, we would be 'Purging the Deepest Samskars' especially those left over from WWII... WWII was like 'Hitting Botton' of the 13 Hells... At the end of the 13 Hells, we will have a 'New Age' based on more 'Universal Principles'...much as Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, was preparing for us, as they performed the 'Yagya to End WWII'... And the taking on of the 'Deepest Karmas on Earth' by Maharishi agreeing to take on some of the 'Nazi Leadership' from that 'Past Time on Earth'...as well as many 'Holocaust Survivors'... Jai Guru Dev
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
Bari sez: Of course intellectually constructed concepts of enlightenment are lame anyway. Only experience counts. You statement is an intellectually constructed conceptual argument. Also, the assertion that only experience counts is a conclusion and is not in itself experientially self-evident. It too, is just a concept. Your comment displays your bias towards a Western style neo-experientialism (i.e. post-Vivekananada). Apparently, like Robert (Erik Chaim Steinschneider), you never followed the link and read the article. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 06/14/2012 11:49 AM, emptybill wrote: Chaim you are grandstanding again. Is this your new Palace of the Occult? Are you still on that stage even here? Consider reading the article before you comment. It gives an accurate account of Shankara's central teaching points and demonstrates the divergence between Shankara's original advaita and the yogic advaita that appeared after the fourteenth century. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robertbabajii_99@ wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstract Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? This thirty page pamphlet explains why enlightenment is not a permanent experience of a particular state of consciousness, why it is not a thought-free mind, and why karma does not have to be exhausted for liberation. It debunks many of the major misunderstandings about Vedanta and spiritual life in general first and foremost the idea that Vedanta is a philosophy or a school of thought. It carefully explains what Vedanta actually is and highlights several of its most important teachings: cause and effect, the Three State analysis, and the five sheaths. It discusses the Self as bliss confusion, the Self as Knowledge confusion, the Self as Energy confusion, and the Multi-Path confusion. And finally it resolves the issue of the stages of enlightenment. http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/sitehtml/jamesswartz/advaita1.pdf Nice, thanks B. Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstact Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
So, Enlightenment is not a 'Static Thing'... Rather it is a dynamic flow from infinity to a wave of motion and back to infinity again... It is complete and utter 'Self-Referral' consciousness... The Big Self, takes the place of the small egoic self... It is a very Liberating Experience on many levels... It can be experienced if the desire continues to be strong enough to 'Throw off' the differenct manifestions of the limited ego... Losing the ego is very scarey at first, because the ego is associated with 'Who you think you Are'...but after enlighenment, and after the intitial shock of the implosion of the ego 'All is Well, That ends Well' Jai Guru Dev --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? This thirty page pamphlet explains why enlightenment is not a permanent experience of a particular state of consciousness, why it is not a thought-free mind, and why karma does not have to be exhausted for liberation. It debunks many of the major misunderstandings about Vedanta and spiritual life in general first and foremost the idea that Vedanta is a philosophy or a school of thought. It carefully explains what Vedanta actually is and highlights several of its most important teachings: cause and effect, the Three State analysis, and the five sheaths. It discusses the Self as bliss confusion, the Self as Knowledge confusion, the Self as Energy confusion, and the Multi-Path confusion. And finally it resolves the issue of the stages of enlightenment. http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/sitehtml/jamesswartz/advaita1.pdf Nice, thanks B. Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstact Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
So, this is what Lord Krishna said to Arjuna in the Bagavad Gita... He said, Folding back onto Myself, I Create Again and Again... This is what he meant... The real process of creation takes place in the 'Gap' Maharishi Mahesh Yogis accomplishment to teach of this 'Gap'...so that 'Full Enlightenment' doesn't end with the just the 'Witnessing Consciousness' but rather it is extended out to encompass the 'Whole of Creation or 'Brahm' as the 'Wholeness of Conscousness'... This is where the so-called Sidhis or 'Miracles' come to play... As one gathers the infinite pleasure of the 'Divine Chi' which 'Backs up the Flow' through the 'Jiva' of the 'Infinite Atman' or 'Universal Soul'... Jai Guru Dev --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: So, Enlightenment is not a 'Static Thing'... Rather it is a dynamic flow from infinity to a wave of motion and back to infinity again... It is complete and utter 'Self-Referral' consciousness... The Big Self, takes the place of the small egoic self... It is a very Liberating Experience on many levels... It can be experienced if the desire continues to be strong enough to 'Throw off' the differenct manifestions of the limited ego... Losing the ego is very scarey at first, because the ego is associated with 'Who you think you Are'...but after enlighenment, and after the intitial shock of the implosion of the ego 'All is Well, That ends Well' Jai Guru Dev --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? This thirty page pamphlet explains why enlightenment is not a permanent experience of a particular state of consciousness, why it is not a thought-free mind, and why karma does not have to be exhausted for liberation. It debunks many of the major misunderstandings about Vedanta and spiritual life in general first and foremost the idea that Vedanta is a philosophy or a school of thought. It carefully explains what Vedanta actually is and highlights several of its most important teachings: cause and effect, the Three State analysis, and the five sheaths. It discusses the Self as bliss confusion, the Self as Knowledge confusion, the Self as Energy confusion, and the Multi-Path confusion. And finally it resolves the issue of the stages of enlightenment. http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/sitehtml/jamesswartz/advaita1.pdf Nice, thanks B. Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstact Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert
[FairfieldLife] Re: There is no such thing as Enlightenment
So, this is what Lord Krishna said to Arjuna in the Bagavad Gita... He said, Folding back onto Myself, I Create Again and Again... This is what he meant... The real process of creation takes place in the 'Gap' Maharishi Mahesh Yogis accomplishment to teach of this 'Gap'...so that 'Full Enlightenment' doesn't end with the just the 'Witnessing Consciousness' but rather it is extended out to encompass the 'Whole of Creation or 'Brahm' as the 'Wholeness of Conscousness'... This is where the so-called Sidhis or 'Miracles' come to play... As one gathers the infinite pleasure of the 'Divine Chi' which 'Backs up the Flow' through the 'Jiva' of the 'Infinite Atman' or 'Universal Soul'... Jai Guru Dev --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: So, Enlightenment is not a 'Static Thing'... Rather it is a dynamic flow from infinity to a wave of motion and back to infinity again... It is complete and utter 'Self-Referral' consciousness... The Big Self, takes the place of the small egoic self... It is a very Liberating Experience on many levels... It can be experienced if the desire continues to be strong enough to 'Throw off' the differenct manifestions of the limited ego... Losing the ego is very scarey at first, because the ego is associated with 'Who you think you Are'...but after enlighenment, and after the intitial shock of the implosion of the ego 'All is Well, That ends Well' Jai Guru Dev --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:16 PM, emptybill wrote: What is Advaita? This thirty page pamphlet explains why enlightenment is not a permanent experience of a particular state of consciousness, why it is not a thought-free mind, and why karma does not have to be exhausted for liberation. It debunks many of the major misunderstandings about Vedanta and spiritual life in general first and foremost the idea that Vedanta is a philosophy or a school of thought. It carefully explains what Vedanta actually is and highlights several of its most important teachings: cause and effect, the Three State analysis, and the five sheaths. It discusses the Self as bliss confusion, the Self as Knowledge confusion, the Self as Energy confusion, and the Multi-Path confusion. And finally it resolves the issue of the stages of enlightenment. http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/sitehtml/jamesswartz/advaita1.pdf Nice, thanks B. Yes, there is such a thing as 'Enlightenment' as all the Ancient texts in every culture talk of it... All the Mystics talk of it, and experience it... It is simple becoming familiar with the state of 'Being Within' The state where the 'Witnessor Collapses' and all that is left is the experience of pure consciousness... Now, with many years of transcending with a mantra, as in TM, there becomes a familiarity with the 'Inward Stroke of Meditation'... So, as one becomes familiar with 'Witnessing' , one can, at the same time, use the 'Self as a Reference, within'...this is called 'Self-Referral'... We becoming familiar with the Witness as the basis of all thought, all sound, all the senses, all the emotions, all possible phenomanon, at the basis of 'Existence Itself'... And this state is 'Cultured in Activity'...we allow our reference point to continually dwell on the 'Inward Stroke' of Dhana Shakti, while at the same time, all the attention to be on the 'Abstact Witness'... So, Enlightenment Dawns, when one becomes familiar enough with the Witnessor, as well as attuning the 'Intellect' to rely on Being, instead of relying on the 'Outside World' for 'Objective' reality... We Realize the the 'Only Reality in Reality' is 'Pure Abstact Subjectivitythus everything that is taking place in the 'So-Called Outside Objective World' really is just a play on your own 'Jiva' and once you Realize this Jiva to be Atma'...then the 'Soul begins to Experience Directly'...the experience of being 'Unbounded' while at the same time, projecting itself through the senses and the body... Robert
