Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Apr 2, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Robert wrote: I personally don't care which meditation technique the kids learn...just as long as they learn and are taught something which transcends the usually superficial nonsense they spend all of their time on... TM or Mindfulness; either is fine...perhaps one should be given the choice, as mindfulness is a Buddhist practice. The mindfulness movement, or an aspect of it, is to promote mindfulness meditation as a truly non-sectarian, universal practice common to ALL religions. So the trend is to remove any blatant Buddhist elements to any such practices and base them on solid science. My sister practices mindfulness and she calls herself a Buddhist... So, is Buddhism a religion? Not in the traditional sense. As Robert Thurman points out, Buddhism or buddha-dharma is actually an Awakening School. That not to say that there are people who don't practice Buddhism as a religion or even as a superstition, some do. IMO to the extent that Buddhism or Hinduism, etc. are practiced as superstitious religions is the extent to which they depart from being Awakening Schools. Because when I ask my sister if she believes in God, so seems to explain the Buddha is not a God, and that mindfulness makes you aware of the nothingness of existence... So, in a way, it just seems like a form of 'Existentialism'. And in that case, we still are back to 'In God We Trust'...dollar as king of kings, queen of queens, and so on and so forth. So, I would assume that since Caesar's been running things, perhaps this Existential existence meditation, might fly better in the American schools. That's why the idea of non-sectarian, non-religious programs like the MindfulKids Foundation need to be promoted and why disguised religious movements like the David Lynch Foundation and Transcendental Meditation need to be exposed for the frauds they truly are. Even their science does not pan out. What I don't understand about Buddhism, is the belief in nothingness, and the belief in reincarnation... How could we have the 14th of one? Is the Dalai Lama like God, to the Buddhists? No, he's a reincarnating Bodhisattva, westerners who like to project things based on their own lack of understanding characterize him as a god man. Very misleading and factually incorrect. Who and what reincarnates? Good question. It's answered different depending on the View of who's asked. Does one have a specific soul, or is one soulless, what does Buddhism really teach about these things? From the POV of Inner Tantra, what transmigrates is basically our spiritual gene, our subtle accumulated propensities and habits, both good and bad. We continue to find different levels of RNA and DNA expression. I suspect what we'll eventually find is that a finer level of this physical or non-physical phenomenon exists and allows traits to continue across what appears as sequential time that condition continuation of similar consciousness'. Morphogenetic memories.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:18 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: Vaj, You haven't a clue about the practice of TM. Intersting opinion but WRONG. :-) Really, in terms of the technical description of how TM is practiced in the initial technique--it's not truly like 'any other thought', as one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual WRONG. No one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness. That would require effort. TM is effortless. You weren't told to wait for the mantra? You don't remember to return to the mantra when you're back in thoughts? You need to get checked! Maintaining mindfulness implies effort. It is not TM and is not the same as coming back to the mantra as effortlessly as any other thought. That's why the Sanskrit word for technique, prayatna, also means effort. The two are inseparably and inescapably interconnected. If there is no smriti, you'd never re-engage the mantra. PS: Any technique cannot, by definition, be effortless. This is a common TM fallacy. All it indicates is you've been indoctrinated in a untenable belief and you fell for it. MMY actually admitted at Estes Park that TM is not effortless. It's just a marketing spiel parroted by people who really aren't that familiar with meditation. I never heard of such BS as you're pumping out here, today. You should get out more and stop believing what everything everyone tells you. It makes you look like a fool parroting nonsense. Although it does sound like a good sales spiel, you obviously will have a hard time as the truth about meditation becomes clearer to you. All I can say is, you are not alone. This is part of what happens with phony gurus who really make it up as they go along: sometimes they get it right, but more often than not they just seed confusion in the hearts and minds of their students. My TM practice IS effortless and the hundreds of people I've checked have had effortless meditation during checking. Well no Raunch, let me stop you right there. You believed it was effortless because you were conditioned to believe this and accepted this conditioning. Now you're attached to that conditioning and you protect it like a security blanket. You cannot see through the illusions you've acquired. So you lash out when someone points out your illusions. You're not the only one thrashing about with their illusions here Raunch, this one's a hard one for TM folks, esp. teachers who accepted teachings uncritically and then incorporated them into who they thought they were. Maharishi never said TM requires any effort other than effortlessly picking up the mantra as effortlessly as any other thought. Do you interpret this to mean Maharishi is ADMITTING TM requires effort? You're way off base on that one, Buddy. Further, TM IS effortless and just not a marketing spiel and yes, I am VERY familiar with effortless meditation, everyday twice a day since 1972. Unless, you have actually practiced TM, and it doesn't sound like you have, you're just pontificating about something you don't know anything about. I don't know what meditation you practice, but I'd be surprised if you've ever had an effortless meditation a day in your life. It's pretty clear you really don't know what you're talking about. Ole Mahesh promoted a number of lies about meditation in general and TM specifically. I suspect you'd be in for a big surprise if you went to India and tried to spout off your imagined wisdom. Granted these are very subtle distinctions, but meditation is a subtle practice. But the distinction between method, prayatna-based meditation and true effortless meditation represents a very important distinction between dualistic forms of meditation and advaita, esp. in the Shankaracharya tradition.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 11:40 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: I've learned a lot of variations on mantra concentration over the years, from the TM charm causes the mind to spontaneously concentrate idea to many other kinds. One of the problems I noticed with very slack techniques like TM is that you can lose clarity if you get used to allowing the mantra to be just this fuzzy impulse. It's too easy to fall into the defects (of mantra practice). It seems to me the dogmas that surround TM mantra recitation has actually hindered the practice. What a load of crap. The only thing that hinders TM practice is effort. TM is not mantra recitation. Recitation implies effort. Checking establishes effortless practice. Seems to me your defective dogma has hindered your understanding of TM. Checking establishes easy practice, but no method can be considered effortless. Chuch the method, then we can talk. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 9:53 AM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions. Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. Non sequitur. Correct view of dualistic meditation has nothing to do with TTC, since correct View of meditation is not taught at TTC! Enjoy your false views Raunch, they're yours.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:24 AM, raunchydog wrote: Vaj, Until you answer whether or not you are a TM teacher, you have absolutely no credibility on anything you say about TM. You are a fraud until you prove otherwise. The only fraud I see here is the one presenting false views. I guess the good thing is, you have a lot of other people here who share your delusion. If you consider that good. My answer is the same as it's always been.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. He still does not see how slamming me with the results of his very extensive search was an invasion of privacy and not at all the way to make friends and influence people, which people you're trying to make friends with. He told me enough about himself (revealing nothing, actually) that I was downright confused and remained confused to this day. Suffice it to say that I did not take him up on his offer to talk further.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: Vaj claims to have been a *TM teacher*. Really? Well, Hush my mouth. Has he said anything specific that leads you to believe it's true? He's been very evasive about specifics, but I vaguely recall at one point he did say something about which TTC he was on. I had no basis to question what he claimed, not being a teacher myself, but none of the people here who were teachers challenged him on it. I don't recall whether anyone here actually confirmed it. I've seen former teachers demonstrate that they never really got what TM was, but none in my experience has ever gone off the deep end like Vaj has. You could tell they'd at least been *exposed* to what MMY taught, even if they hadn't gotten it straight. If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. I suspect that Vaj was never a TM teacher. That's my intuition. But it could be that he did go to TTC and has studied other approaches to the point that he's had a complete cognitive shift such that he sees all of TM in a different light. Take for example his saying that TM is not effortless, that we don't think effortlessly and don't go back to the mantra effortlessly. I grok that. I ever have a problem understand Maharishi's use of the word intention, which is what we use to shift back to the mantra. I've spent many an hour, many a day, many a year wondering if I'm doing the sidhis right because there's stress flowing out and sometimes I have to intend thinking the sutra harder than other times. I congratulate myself for finally having used intention to get the sutra just suble enough and yeah, now I'm getting results from the sutra. These are very subtle teachings from Maharishi and seeing them from a different viewpoint can change the whole sense of them, IMO. Yes, I've been checked and I've had my research into consciousness checked as well. I am a TM checker.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:40 AM, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: You've been doing OK lately, but if you're about to have another inner child tantrum, can you make this next one a little more believable than the previous ones? Some family friends taught me something I consider very wise. Revenge is a dish best served cold.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:05 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. It hard to argue with cult mindsets. Apparently it wouldn't matter what was said. It's the same feeling you get when you invite Jehovah Witnesses into your home and try to talk about the Bible.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:20 AM, I am the eternal wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. He still does not see how slamming me with the results of his very extensive search was an invasion of privacy and not at all the way to make friends and influence people, which people you're trying to make friends with. Completely untrue. I slammed you? Hardly. Here I thought we were having a friendly conversation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:20 AM, I am the eternal wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. He still does not see how slamming me with the results of his very extensive search was an invasion of privacy and not at all the way to make friends and influence people, which people you're trying to make friends with. Completely untrue. I slammed you? Hardly. Here I thought we were having a friendly conversation. It's not a friendly conversation when one reveals the result of an extensive search of the 'Net about someone else in a very sensitive area. The material might have been available but I consider the search and revealing the result of the search to be an invasion of privacy. Not the way to have a friendly conversation. So you've gathered everything about me but when I ask about you, tell me you don't reveal about yourself. That you just don't get it speaks volumes about your air of superiority, which is quite evident here on FFL.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 1:42 PM, I am the eternal wrote: It's not a friendly conversation when one reveals the result of an extensive search of the 'Net about someone else in a very sensitive area. The material might have been available but I consider the search and revealing the result of the search to be an invasion of privacy. Not the way to have a friendly conversation. So you've gathered everything about me but when I ask about you, tell me you don't reveal about yourself. No such extensive search of the internet ever took place. I do not recall you ever revealing anything extensive about yourself or requesting any such thing from me. That you just don't get it speaks volumes about your air of superiority, which is quite evident here on FFL. Maybe it's your own inferiority complex? I'm simply speaking the facts of mantra practice as I know it, from experience. If that sounds superior to you then I guess you should ask yourself why? One would hope others could share insight or gain insight from such a conversation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:55 PM, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge? I have a Purusha-badge and could have a dome-badge anytime if I wanted to, but I'm not in your country and don't need one. No one who hasn't recently been in the Dome has a valid Dome badge. The expiration dates of Dome badges are over the place. You have to be re-admitted to the Dome by DEVCO if you've not recently been in the Dome. You have to go through orientation anew each time.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Nelson nelsonriddle2...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Got an ancient field badge with no current sticker. -CIC-9, great times back then. National Field Badges were never honored in the Dome. I always had to have a new badge made.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 4:28 PM, raunchydog raunchy...@yahoo.com wrote: Finally, it all makes sense. Vaj invites Jehovah Witnesses into his home. Why? So he can show off his superior knowledge about the Bible, of course. Now everyone knows that most Jehovah Witnesses have actually read the Bible. Has Vaj? He's not saying but I'm sure he has no problem spouting off bullshit about it. Just like he does about TM. I invite JWs into my home. They ask if I believe that the Bible is the inspired work of God. I say no, I believe the Bhagavad Gita is. I pull out Maharishi-ji's translation and begin reading. The JWs thank me for my time and go to the next house.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 12:00 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Although Maharishi promotes the idea of coming back to the mantra was his unique contribution, I'm not sure a broader study of the source documents would support this. If he indeed made that claim, it's and out and out lie. Another one. But then again, most of us back then knew no better--we actually believed it, at least for a while. So, in brief, it was not his unique contribution, but traditional in many forms of meditation practice, not just mantra repetition. It precedes TM by thusands and thousands of years. The problem with TM is that it's a canned form of mantra practice, rather than allowing different styles of repetition for different types of people, the way it really should be. After all, we're all different!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, authfriend jst...@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now see that seeming to work period as more of a *contrast* between my life up till then, practicing no form of meditation reg- ularly, and then practicing *some* form of meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt some benefits at the start. When I stopped feeling those benefits, I moved on and found other techniques from which the sense of them working and providing continuing benefits did not fade and has not faded in any of the years since. Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. You say, The vast majority of religions -- modern and ancient -- strove to *prevent* that kind of inner exploration rather than facilitate it. Would it be fair to say Hinduism is one of the minority of religions that still strives to facilitate inner exploration? Absolutely not, not in my opinion. Mainstream Hinduism *in India* probably attempts to limit and prevent the mystical experience as much as the Catholic Church does, and stresses faith more than anything else. But many of the off- spring of Indian Hinduism, transplanted to the West, found that Westerners were more
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Checks in the envelope . . where to mail it! --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespeech@ ... wrote: Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now see that seeming to work period as more of a *contrast* between my life up till then, practicing no form of meditation reg- ularly, and then practicing *some* form of meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt some benefits at the start. When I stopped feeling those benefits, I moved on and found other techniques from which the sense of them working and providing continuing benefits did not fade and has not faded in any of the years since. Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Would you have any objections to attendees at the up- coming McCartney concert being handed a flyer containing only the English translation of the TM puja -- no commentary, only a sim- ple explanation that this was a translation of the ceremony their kids would be witnessing and asked at the end to participate in by kneeling down -- as they went into the concert? And if you *would* have objections, why? Actually, what's to stop anyone from doing that? Anybody free one week from tonight for a few hours? :) Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 5:01 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 12:00 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Although Maharishi promotes the idea of coming back to the mantra was his unique contribution, I'm not sure a broader study of the source documents would support this. If he indeed made that claim, it's and out and out lie. Another one. But then again, most of us back then knew no better--we actually believed it, at least for a while. So, in brief, it was not his unique contribution, but traditional in many forms of meditation practice, not just mantra repetition. It precedes TM by thusands and thousands of years. The problem with TM is that it's a canned form of mantra practice, rather than allowing different styles of repetition for different types of people, the way it really should be. After all, we're all different! Seems to me that MMY's unique contribution is the understanding that thinking a mantra is no different than thinking any other thought. His particular phrasing--which IMO the sensitivity and careful phrasing--is all that is unique. But easy repetition of mantra itself is not unique at all, although limiting oneself to just that slant on mantra, to the exclusion of others, is a uniqueness (really a dogmatic narrowness) of the TM technique. Insomuch as most other meditation techniques seem to miss this point, I'd say it is unique to TM (or at least, my interpretation of TM).
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 5:24 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: This principle doesn't hold up all the way through the advanced techniques or the defunct Chopra technique. But in any case I've not met any TMer who could rightfully claim the kind of exposure to different meditaitons that would make this claim valid and that criticism goes doubly for Maharishi who according to his own reports was a company man. But was have a few people here who seem to have gone further and found out that it was not a unique contribution. Huh. I've taken chopra's primoridal sound technique and several advanced techniques about 4-5 of them, I think We seem to have different ideas about how things work. Lawson. At one stage you are directing the mantra. This is not like any other thought. That was my point. I know all of these advanced techniques are on the web but I don't like to piss people off unnecessarily by being more specific. I remember how people into it feel about their secrets. But I hope you get my point from that. Really, in terms of the technical description of how TM is practiced in the initial technique--it's not truly like 'any other thought', as one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual technical term) both as the mantra first arises (waiting or monitoring for the mantra to appear) and one must be mindful to return to the mantra--otherwise one would potentially end up never returning to the mantra, but remain distracted for the entire session! This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. Technically the style of mantra repetition where one has to return to the mantra still is called faulty or defective in Sanskrit since one has to constantly re-engage the mantra as it is lost. It's one of the lower levels of mantra practice.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 4:24 PM, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: I know all of these advanced techniques are on the web but I don't like to piss people off unnecessarily by being more specific. I remember how people into it feel about their secrets. But I hope you get my point from that. Would you mind conveying that to Vaj, who has no problem searching for other people's medical secrets?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 7:59 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 5:24 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: This principle doesn't hold up all the way through the advanced techniques or the defunct Chopra technique. But in any case I've not met any TMer who could rightfully claim the kind of exposure to different meditaitons that would make this claim valid and that criticism goes doubly for Maharishi who according to his own reports was a company man. But was have a few people here who seem to have gone further and found out that it was not a unique contribution. Huh. I've taken chopra's primoridal sound technique and several advanced techniques about 4-5 of them, I think We seem to have different ideas about how things work. Lawson. At one stage you are directing the mantra. This is not like any other thought. That was my point. I know all of these advanced techniques are on the web but I don't like to piss people off unnecessarily by being more specific. I remember how people into it feel about their secrets. But I hope you get my point from that. Vaj, You haven't a clue about the practice of TM. Intersting opinion but WRONG. :-) Really, in terms of the technical description of how TM is practiced in the initial technique--it's not truly like 'any other thought', as one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual WRONG. No one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness. That would require effort. TM is effortless. You weren't told to wait for the mantra? You don't remember to return to the mantra when you're back in thoughts? You need to get checked! PS: Any technique cannot, by definition, be effortless. This is a common TM fallacy. All it indicates is you've been indoctrinated in a untenable belief and you fell for it. MMY actually admitted at Estes Park that TM is not effortless. It's just a marketing spiel parroted by people who really aren't that familiar with meditation. technical term) both as the mantra first arises (waiting or monitoring for the mantra to appear) and one must be mindful to return to the mantra--otherwise one would potentially end up never returning to the mantra, but remain distracted for the entire session! WRONG. The mantra may change in different ways. It can get faster or slower, louder or softer, clearer or fainter. Its pronunciation may change, lengthen or shorten or even may appear to be distorted or it may not appear to change at all. In every case, we take it as it comes, neither anticipating nor resisting change, just simple innocence. Read what I said again, you missed the point. This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. Non sequitur. Your response has nothing to do with what I'm saying! Technically the style of mantra repetition where one has to return to the mantra still is called faulty or defective in Sanskrit since one has to constantly re-engage the mantra as it is lost. It's one of the lower levels of mantra practice. WRONG. This is a gross misunderstanding of TM. No, it's actually the level of mantra practice where you must repeatedly return to mantra. You just were just never told about mantra practice...sorry. Not my fault you still parrot these misunderstood ideas. Losing the mantra just means the mind has transcended thought, transcending even the mantra as a thought, as in no mantra and no thought. The mantra is a vehicle for transcending thought, a comfortable, effortless ride to the transcendent. When your vehicle arrives at its destination, you don't think, should I stay in the car? get back in the car? drive the car some more? No. If you can think a thought, you effortlessly pick up the mantra. Losing the mantra is just the inward stroke of the mind and a thought is just the outward strokes of mind due to normalization of the physiology. Nothing more. If one has to constantly re-engage the mantra as it is lost it's not TM. It places the practitioner is a deplorable quandary, Jeez, I lost the mantra AGAIN and I HAVE TO re-engage it. Shit! They told me this was effortless, I must be doing it WRONG. And so goes the doubt about one's practice and TM down the tubes. Time for checking, doncha know. I'm talking about the outward stroke RD, not the inward one. If you keep returning on the outward stroke it's because your level of
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:45 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig lengli...@... wrote: At one stage you are directing the mantra. This is not like any other thought. That was my point. We seem to have different ideas about how things work I know all of these advanced techniques are on the web but I don't like to piss people off unnecessarily by being more specific. I remember how people into it feel about their secrets. But I hope you get my point from that. We seem to have different ideas about how things work But I'm not surprised, I've objected strongly to descriptions of advanced techniques that I have heard before. I don't really understand how many different ways there are to think of it. My point was that there seems to be a lot of leeway with the so called innocent practice and it still works. For example Indians who are using their Istideva's name transcend just fine despite all sorts or emotional connections with their mantra. Thinking your mantra from a body part, which would be exactly the kind of things TM teachers are taught to poo poo as not innocent and would be introducing effort, work just fine as well. And by the time we get to the expansion of awareness technique found in certain advanced techniques and the now defunct Age of Enlightenment technique, we have a practice that for all purposes is a straight up hypnotic inductions with all the trappings of a contrived moodmaking technique generated by imagination. But again, it is just fine from Maharishi. I've learned a lot of variations on mantra concentration over the years, from the TM charm causes the mind to spontaneously concentrate idea to many other kinds. One of the problems I noticed with very slack techniques like TM is that you can lose clarity if you get used to allowing the mantra to be just this fuzzy impulse. It's too easy to fall into the defects (of mantra practice). It seems to me the dogmas that surround TM mantra recitation has actually hindered the practice. Conversely, finding a relaxed balance between too much attention and not enough attention--and then continuously repeating mantra for a half hour or so without losing attention of your repetition is quite different. You can tell if you're losing focus because you start to screw up on your repetition. You'll get the same changes in the mantra, but awareness is much quicker to respond. The advantage is, you get results from the mantra much quicker and your attentional skills get honed very finely.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Kirk wrote: TM is ultimately a Vaishnava methodology... You are right... Shankara had Shri Vidya and Saiva background... but his Guru was Vaishnava... He worshiped Lord Narasimha and whole lineage was worshiping Vishnu: Parashara (read Brihad Parashara Hora Sastra), Vyasa, Shukadev...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I suggest for a fictitious narrative of this sort of thing this little novel: http://www.amazon.com/Beasts-Valhalla-George-C-Chesbro/dp/0967450330 - Original Message - From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 8:40 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan no_re...@... wrote: You [Curtis] may say well its not TM that is being proposed to give to students, its rajas and SCI and yagyas. I disagree. But the dogma explaining what really happens when they transcend, and what that means, will most definitely be given. And that is Hindu dogma, with a search on gods and goddesses to replace them with laws of nature. TM *itself* is based on Hindu teach- ings, from the puja onwards. And I, for one, cannot see any court in the land not seeing that and deciding on the basis of that. There is no requirement or necessity to spew a lot of words, hot air or otherwise, to do TM. SCI has nothing absolutely nothing to do with the actual practice of meditation. (Other than I suppose to be a cautionary tale -- that is -- if a mind so soaked in meditation comes up with this crap -- the technique clearly has it s limits.) I have to ask, since if it's been mentioned before I missed it -- are you a TM teacher? If not, I can see how you might believe that there is no requirement or necessity to spew a lot of words. But this program will not be *implemented* by people who think like you do. It will be implemented by FANATICS. By definition, TM cannot be taught these days except by recertified TM teachers. That means that these people were SO fanatical that they agreed to pay for TM Teacher Training TWICE (once to become teachers originally, and then again later, when Maharishi said to). They had to sign pieces of paper agreeing to give up their jobs and work for the TM movement full time as teachers, for a pittance. Such people are fanatics, evangelists. I do not see how there is an icicle's chance in Hell that they WON'T be spewing lots of words. That's just what evangelists DO. JUST as they could never even *conceive* of teaching TM without a puja, they could never even *conceive* of not spouting a lot of words about the laws of nature and enlivening them, and doing non-stop commercials for butt- bouncing for peace. The situation you propose for teaching TM as purely a technique and leaving it at that DOES NOT EXIST. The people who will be teach- ing these kids are incapable of allowing it to exist. To do so would violate the *need* they feel to evangelize. These people who say that they're going to teach TM and only TM are LYING. And you saw evidence of that in one of the posts today, saying that the Rajas are going to attend the McCartney concert dressed not as Rajas, but as normal people. If they're so proud of what they do and what they are and what being a king allows them to wear, WHY ARE THEY HIDING IT? They're LYING. They want these kids as fodder for the next generation of TM cultists, and they hope to find it in thousands of young, impressionable kids. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 27, 2009, at 10:31 AM, grate.swan wrote: Provind a pure meditation method is what I am discussing and proposing. No you're not. You're being an apologist for a religious form of meditation, plain and simple. There's nothing pure about it, unless of course you meant purely Hindu. If you want a non-sectarian form of meditation and attentional skills for children, you need look no further than the InnerKids Foundation. No mumbo jumbo Hindu initiation rituals. no repeating bija-aksharas of Hindu devatas. No faux-physics, pilot research, exaggeration or bias. Just awareness being aware of itself. Mindfulness is universal, the science is good and sound and the infrastructure is already in place.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:39 AM, Robert wrote: Well, now I see, said the 'Blind Man'... For an excellent exposition of the use of deity in Buddhist tantras, see HH 14th Dalai Lama's excellent Deity Yoga, which contains parts on the siddhis, use of mantra, etc. It also contains the excellent Heart of Mantra by HHDL. It includes a section on the purpose of deity yoga and advanced uses of mantra (which was very upsetting to some TMers previously, caveat emptor): http://books.google.com/books?id=goXfIvghdmYCpg=PA1lpg=PA1dq=% 22heart+of+mantra%22+by+dalai+lamasource=blots=t5Z- QCYAhrsig=kIMns6Nr_XZdpOZtmzo4D9VEiJchl=enei=- n3LSYfGPJzrlQfwtPXRCQsa=Xoi=book_resultresnum=3ct=result#PPA4,M1 LINK
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Looks good. Also the basic Vimalaprabha text of HHDL contains also an entire mantra science. - Original Message - From: Vaj To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:39 AM, Robert wrote: Well, now I see, said the 'Blind Man'... For an excellent exposition of the use of deity in Buddhist tantras, see HH 14th Dalai Lama's excellent Deity Yoga, which contains parts on the siddhis, use of mantra, etc. It also contains the excellent Heart of Mantra by HHDL. It includes a section on the purpose of deity yoga and advanced uses of mantra (which was very upsetting to some TMers previously, caveat emptor): http://books.google.com/books?id=goXfIvghdmYCpg=PA1lpg=PA1dq=%22heart+of+mantra%22+by+dalai+lamasource=blots=t5Z-QCYAhrsig=kIMns6Nr_XZdpOZtmzo4D9VEiJchl=enei=-n3LSYfGPJzrlQfwtPXRCQsa=Xoi=book_resultresnum=3ct=result#PPA4,M1 LINK
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:48 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: * The reading of Rig Veda and the chanting of Sama Veda after flying. What is NOT religious about being forced to sit there and listen to hour after hour of readings *directly* from the pages of scripture? According to Judy, if you don't understand Sanskrit and hence have no idea that you're reading a religious text, then it isn't religious. Kind of like, if the president does it, it isn't illegal. With impeccable logic like that, who needs fanatics? * The growing status of the TMO as a cult. This was the period in which Off The Program first was making its appearance, and in which TMers were being denied permission to go to courses because of life- style choices they had made, such as living with their girlfriends outside of marriage, or reading Off The Program books. Look at that last one -- if you are denied the ability to become a TM Teacher *because you read a book by another teacher*, as happened with some frequency back then, what is NOT religious about that? More cult-like than religious per se, I would say. * The growing reclusive nature of many TMers. People were beginning to NOT meditate and dive into activity. They were starting, in fact, to *avoid* activity as much as possible, and find ways to stay on rounding courses forever, or to stay in Europe working on staff forever. This was a trend that I saw as contrary to what TM was selling itself as, and not completely healthy. I still feel that way. This was one thing that drove me nuts when I first started to get involved... the almost complete disregard for activity or any kind of exercise. * Outright persecution of dissent. That was the biggest tell for me that the organization had flipped from the SIMS days and was well on its way down the slippery slope towards becoming a full-blown religion. I bailed before it got far enough down that slope to include yagyas and pundits and people in Raja costumes *while claiming it was not a religion*. What inspired me to bail was noticing how people (both TMers and TM Teachers) were treated who did not agree with some point of dogma or some rule that had been imposed on them or their lifestyle. To make a long story short, what happened to them was that they were EXCOMMUNICATED, sent away, denied access to the organization completely and anathemitized to the point that their former friends were afraid to have anything to do with them. Again, what is NOT a religion about that? Just some points, to remind you of what has happened in the time SINCE those days. If I was seeing signs of the TMO being a cult and a religion THEN, it just blows my mind that people looking at what the TMO has become in the time SINCE then can't see it. But the force of the TM Is Not A Religion Religion is strong. Once you've become a member of that church, it's very difficult to leave. Or so it seems...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 26, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Kirk wrote: Looks good. Also the basic Vimalaprabha text of HHDL contains also an entire mantra science. Not sure I've seen that. Can you share a link?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
- Original Message - From: Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@lisco.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools But the force of the TM Is Not A Religion Religion is strong. Once you've become a member of that church, it's very difficult to leave. Or so it seems... --Well then you've hit the nail on the flat end. For me, I switched first to Devi Bhakta after understanding the religious nature of my TM Mantra, then to the same but from a Buddhist context which I purposely sought out due to its similarities to my previous experiences, thus making a switch, but not really switching anything. Three Card Monty - religious style. I did not find the opposite to be true, which is to say that I did not have nondevotional esteem for my practice. Which is to say that I understood the fundamentally religious and Hindu nature of TM from the outset and I had always dug on that. TM Mantras are based on ishtadevata and varnashrama. Thus early year kids are given Kama bijas of Devi, then early middle year people are given Knowledge bijas of Saraswati, then later middle years are given Dharma bijas and lastly latter aged people are given moksha bijas of Mahakali. Does anyone else think this sounds correct?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 26, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Tibetan teachings are 'far-fetched' according to Marshy - they are a 'mixup' of traditions, some don't even make any sense at all. Yeah like we'd take the Donald Trump of Hinduism as an authority on Tibetan Buddhism! He couldn't even finish a comment on the Bhagavad- geeta in 40 years. I'm sure there's a lot that didn't make sense to Mr. Varmarishi. Heck the Marshy can't even read Sanskrit, seems like he should've stuck to selling gaudy Hindu houses missing their doors on the south side. If you really wanna see something far-fetched? I'll show ya some human bunnies who think they're helping create world peace by manipulating the unified field of physics.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net wrote: On Mar 26, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Tibetan teachings are 'far-fetched' according to Marshy - they are a 'mixup' of traditions, some don't even make any sense at all. Yeah like we'd take the Donald Trump of Hinduism as an authority on Tibetan Buddhism! He couldn't even finish a comment on the Bhagavad-geeta in 40 years. I'm sure there's a lot that didn't make sense to Mr. Varmarishi. Heck the Marshy can't even read Sanskrit, seems like he should've stuck to selling gaudy Hindu houses missing their doors on the south side. If you really wanna see something far-fetched? I'll show ya some human bunnies who think they're helping create world peace by manipulating the unified field of physics. And if anyone can find something on the 'net you can Vaj. You appear to be obsessed with finding out who's posting what where and making out the true identity of each poster from site to site.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 26, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Tibetan teachings are 'far-fetched' according to Marshy - they are a 'mixup' of traditions, some don't even make any sense at all. Vaj wrote: I'm sure there's a lot that didn't make sense to Mr. Varmarishi... You don't have to be a scholar of anything to realize that Tibetan Buddhism is mixed-up, Vaj. Maybe you're in a state of denial. Apparently the historical Buddha didn't even teach most of the doctrines found in the Mahayana or Tantrayana. So, it's all about Shakyamuni? Apparently you don't know what you're talking about. Tibetan Buddhism largely stems from the second, tantric Buddha named Padmasambhava and even earlier Buddhas from the Treta yuga, various rishis, etc. Go figure.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 26, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Richard M wrote: I wonder why you're not expected/required to change your mantra as early middle years all too quickly gives way to later middle years and beyond? Because TM works so well nobody ages, Richard. Have you forgotten that already? Tsk, tsk. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Hindu word for religion is Dharma.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Gavin Kilty translation of Ornament of Stainless Light is the one I use. Not sure there's a link anywhere to the alternating Kalachakra on the net as of yet. - Original Message - From: Vaj To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools On Mar 26, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Kirk wrote: Looks good. Also the basic Vimalaprabha text of HHDL contains also an entire mantra science. Not sure I've seen that. Can you share a link?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I wonder why you're not expected/required to change your mantra as early middle years all too quickly gives way to later middle years and beyond? That's the part relating to istadevata. Each of the expansion of awareness mantras are related to expanding practice or related to Mahalakshmi. So they are all mantras of Mahalakshmi. Alternatively they are all mantras of Mahakali or Saraswati. Each of these Sahasranamas contains the names of the others. Thus they are all one. Yes? Seems at first Maharishi used only Ram and Shyam at first, and he refined his mantra lore as he went along. TM is ultimately a Vaishnava methodology.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Patanjali, the author of the Yoga Sutras, said next to nothing about 'religion' - there was no 'Hinduism' at that time (cica 200 BC). From what I've read, there was 'Brahmanism', 'animism', and the atheist sects, Charvaka, etc. But I've seen no evidence that Patanjali was a teacher in a 'religious tradition'. If he was, he would have said so...duh! Not so. Patanjali is also known as a proponent of Shaivaism. And he has authored a well known sutra to this effect.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I think in Rubberband Paul's book on MMY, or some place, MMY said very early on that the mantra is just selected according to the meditator's chosen deity (that's istadevata, right?). I think that might be where he also says your mantra could be ANY old word, but on the other hand some words/sounds might be more appropriate than others, and all that. So is it like this: as Westerners don't have a chosen deity - istadevata - MMY just created a simple method of assigning them one with at least some semblance of rationality (i.e. as might be thought appropriate for your stage of life at the time). In which case it actually doesn't matter that much which mantra you have (as long as it is one of the 'bija' mantras I suppose). And of course, that's also why there's no need to switch mantras as you get older. -Yes, this is what I'm saying. I don't know if this is what Maharishi thought though. Also, since mental japa of bija mantra has no specific quality or qualtity therefore it is termed 'nirguna' or without guna, and therefore since without intention there is no specific manifestation all of the more specific qualities of the mantra are not fully expanded and so each mantra is ultimately united in purpose - lessness. TM is ultimately a Vaishnava methodology - why so, would you say? -First TM mantras were of Ram and Krishna, (Shyam) progenitor of the TM lineage is Narayana. Sri Vidya which is personal path of Sri Shankara still is exuded from Narayana, as Mahalakshmi. Specific qualities of Narayana/Lakshmi mantras are that one need not renounce anything in life but merely follow ones Sanatanadharma. It should be noted for ones posterior that Buddha is one of the Dashavataras of Vishnu, or would you kill Buddha and just have Navavataras of Wishnu? No one needs the ten for the ten directions and the ten Mahavidyas. You're doing fine with the lingo. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
to the ever peaceful God, Whose lotus like feet are worshipped By enemies of Madhu and other devas, Who has the golden mountain as his bow, And who is the lord of the silver hall [Rajatha Sabhai in Madurai Temple]. Halasya nadhaya maheshwaraya, Hala halalankrutha kandharaya, Meenekshanaya padaye shivaya, Namo nama Sundara thandavaya. 10 Salutations and salutations to the handsome dancer, Who is the great god and lord of town of Madurai, Who stopped the poison called halahala in his neck, And who is the lord of the devi with eyes like fish. Ishwara Uvacha:- Thwaya krutham idham sthothram ya padeth bhakthi samyutha, Thasya ayur deergam arogyam sampadascha dadamyaham. God told:- He who reads this prayer composed you with devotion, Will be given long life, health and wealth by me. http://www.celextel.org/stotrasshiva/sadasivashtakam.html - Original Message - From: Richard J. Williams willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools Patanjali, the author of the Yoga Sutras, said next to nothing about 'religion' - there was no 'Hinduism' at that time (cica 200 BC). From what I've read, there was 'Brahmanism', 'animism', and the atheist sects, Charvaka, etc. But I've seen no evidence that Patanjali was a teacher in a 'religious tradition'. If he was, he would have said so...duh! Kirk wrote: Not so. Patanjali is also known as a proponent of Shaivaism. And he has authored a well known sutra to this effect. Patanjali lived around 200 B.C., Kirk, long before the rise of the sects such as 'Shaivaism' in India. Mircea Eliade says that the role of God in man's acquisition of freedom is of no importance. Thus Patanjali and Vyasa say almost nothing about religion or God as a means of obtaining yoga. Eliade on the role of Ishvara: Unlike Sankhya, Yoga affirms the existence of a God, Ishvara. This God is, of course, no creator, the cosmos, life, and man having, as we have already noted, been created by prakrti, for they all proceed from the primordial substance. But, in the case of certain men, Ishvara can hasten the process of deliverance; he helps them toward a more speedy arrival at samadhi. This God, to whom Patatnjali refers, is more especially a god of yogins. He can come to the help only of a yogin-that is, a man who has already chosen Yoga. In any case, Ishvara's role is comparatively small. He can, for example, bring samadhi to the yogin who takes him as the object of his concentration. According to Patanjali, this divine aid is not the effect of a desire or a feeling - for God can have neither desires nor emotions - but of a metaphysical sympathy between Ishvara and the purusa, a sympathy explained by their structural correspondence. Ishvara is a purusha that has been free since all eternity, never touched by the klesas. Commenting on this text, Vyasa adds that the difference between Ishvara and a liberated spirit is as follows: between the latter and psychomental experience, there was once a relation (even though illusory); whereas Ishvara has always been free. God does not submit to being summoned by rituals, or devotion, or faith in his mercy; but his essence instinctively collaborates, as it were, with the Self that seeks emancipation through Yoga. What is involved, then, is rather a sympathy, metaphysical in nature, connecting two kindred entities. One would say that this sympathy shown by Ishvara toward certain yogins - that is, toward the few men who seek their deliverance by means of yogic,techniques - has exhausted his capacity to interest himself in the lot of mankind. This is why neither Patanjali nor Vyasa succeeds in giving any precise explanation of God's intervention in nature. It is clear that Ishvara has entered Sankhya-Yoga dialectics, as it were, from outside. For Sankhya affirms (and Yoga adopts the affirmation) that Substance (prakriti), because of its teleological instinct, collaborates in the deliverance of man. Thus the role of God in man's acquisition of freedom is of no importance; for the cosmic substance itself undertakes to deliver the many selves (purusa) entangled in the illusory meshes of existence. Although it was Patanjali who introduced this new and (when all is said and done) perfectly useless element of Ishvara into the dialectics of the Sankhya soteriological doctrine, he does not give Ishvara the significance that late commentators will accord to him. What is of first importance in the Yoga-sutras is technique (Eliade 73-74). Work Cited: Yoga: Immortality and Freedom By Mircea Eliade Princeton University Press, 1970 http://tinyurl.com/c38klm To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
It heightens awareness of an aspect of our mind. I don't believe that it heightens awareness itself or our capacity to be aware of anything else more or better. The purpose for me is that it is enjoyable. No higher state needed. That said it is way down on my list of things I want to do with my day so I haven't meditated in a long time. But I enjoy meditation without the belief's attached to it or the idea that I am experiencing a higher state of mind. That was my original point. You can enjoy meditaiton without the context of religious beliefs. Without assuming the traditional belief structure it becomes an experiment without an assumed conclusion. I don't assume any benifits other than the enjoyment of the experience itself. This approach isn't for everyone, but it works for me. What you are promoting here is certain belief system. My point was that there is no secular meditation – it means that there is no meditation WITHOUT certain belief system whether you believe in Mickey Mouse or God or nothing at all.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
*I believe* you are confused about the meaning of the word secular: Hallelujah brother... you are believer :) I know what word secular in strict sense means, but if you want to explain to mass of others about your type of meditation you will end up in some sort of belief system because you will not have scientific arguments about it. Like... you say: The purpose for me is that it is enjoyable. Then you will need to explain what kind of joy is that, what is purpose of it... etc.etc. and soon you will have belief system no matter how that fits in your understanding of word secular.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
If Buddhism honors no god, then where did the Buddha come from? Mom and Dad Buddha? R.G. ---That's the right question to be asking, but rather, where did you come from, also, when and which god solved suffering, disease, pain, conflict and fear and death. Which Deva dissolves these issues? These are the right questions to be pondering. That is how Buddha came to be, not by worshipping gods. But by questioning their aims, motives, actuality in reality rather than just thinking God this God that. Nobody can surely know any of that, and if they do, nobody can really know that either. The real question is how can one worship a Deva and be enlightened ...and not be a Buddha?! Not where or who God is. If one is enlightened then they have become a Buddha. If Maharishi was enlightened then Maharishi was a Buddha. Not the other way around. the human intellect and cognition can only fathom so much and then the mind stops. This is called state of Buddhahood, when cognition and knowledge have reached their end. Nirvana. Yoga Citta Vritti Nirodaha. Buddha said pondering God questions is like being shot by an arrow and worrying who shot you and why. What is not needed is an answer, but a cure for the arrow wound. Pondering who and why and what is not going to cure the arrow wound. What Buddha said was there is a cure. Then he outlined it in his 4 Noble Truths. They are hard to beat as far as meaning goes, also Buddha's answers are more humanitarian than otherworldly systems. Since his system is grounded in the solid state of direct perception and questioning, and worrying little about issues of faith, hope and so on. For most people they cannot simply just live with themselves. Instead they must make up all kinds of high falutin secret societies with hierarchies and unobtainable goals to keep the mind ever engaged in ever more discursive ratiocination. As if by broadening the net of the mind one can someday hold the sky. No. Mind cannot hold anything. Let the mind go and become a Buddha. Otherwise you are just rebirthing the continuum of mind over and over, thus reifying samskara. But because different people have different tendencies and aims there are many Buddhisms. Not just one. Thus I am a Buddhist who practices secret mantra yoga. I am a Buddhist who lives in the world amongst everyone else hiding in plain sight. Since Buddhism deals with finalizing ones solution to lifes problems it is said to be the end all of religions. Some Buddhists know the various devas and energies, others don't. This isn't really the point. The point is does the mind feel satisfied and does it then open to direct vision. That is a Buddha then. Not anything else.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Meditation is for Self realization and God realization. Secular meditation simply does not exist. If Sufi meditation HELPS me to realize my Self and finally God I would accept it. You wouldn't?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Which God? - Original Message - From: Zoran Krneta To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:07 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools Meditation is for Self realization and God realization. Secular meditation simply does not exist. If Sufi meditation HELPS me to realize my Self and finally God I would accept it. You wouldn't?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Which you like…
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I like them all, it's rather confusing. Also I hate them all for fucking me over and stealing my father from me when I was eight. Nothing the Gods could do now could make up for that, so fuck em all I say. If the Gods' cared about making things better they would start by having people stop all the wasteful sacrificing for selfish ends. - Original Message - From: Zoran Krneta To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools Which you like…
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
In my personal life, sure. In state-sponsored public schools? No. In my Country in state-sponsored public schools children have religion classes and they participating on the voluntary basis. Other confessions have the same chance. Nobody makes problems about that. Meditation has many different purposes in many person's lives. May have different purposes and effects but goal is the same. Buddhism honors no god. But it is religion. Is it your feeling that Buddhists don't meditate? They meditate of course, but the object or goal of their meditation they can call as they like... it's essentially the same as in other religions no matter they honors God or not.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Secular meditation simply does not exist. Sure it does. You are claiming that secular meditation develops higher state of consciousness too. If you are right than Self realization/God realization are reachable by your secular meditation also. So what are the differences between them?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:38 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: ..it seems to me that many people enjoy their TM -- while a significant minority have problems such as depression, anxiety, dissociation, involuntary tics, etc. Every once in a while John's mask slips, and what's behind his lip service to TM--such as that in your quote--gets inadvertently spat out in all its ugliness. What phrase do you object to? If your job is helping people who do have problems like the late Margret Singer then the reality of such a population is just a fact. I was wondering the same thing--seems to me John's quote is right on, realistic. God only knows what mask Judy is really afraid of. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I don't know if Lynch said he would teach IN Schools. You know they have every sort of religious club in the world in schools. Why not TM clubs? The truth is soon found out by any slightly savvy youngster now. Let them figure it out. At any rate try talking to a kid now about anything and you'll find a total expert on everything. Your issues Knapp are your own issues and they are passing with your brain, not to be mean or smug, which I am not. This is a fact. I am a Buddhist. I have said it plenty. I also might do TM if I feel like it. And so on. TM saved my life when I was fifteen and a burned out punk rocker in Hollywood. Yeah, already at age fifteen. Age means little. All this afterthought is just that. I hope TM is still around my next go at life. TM teachers who believed and sacrificed everything many times over should have at least one David Lynch on their side. Don't be mean Bro. Or go pierce some Jesus somewhere. Same difference. - Original Message - From: John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknap...@gmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools Kirk, No offense taken! You actually touch on something that I agree with, all education is an experiment. I could rant about that, too. That being said, two wrongs don't make a right. I'd just as soon that education were more evidenced-based AND that TM not be taught in public schools. J. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Kirk kirk_bernha...@... wrote: No offense John, but education is a myth. It works for a few. All education is an experiment. If you look at the WORKS of the educated then you know their education was an experiment in how to step in dogshit. - Original Message - From: John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknap...@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 6:26 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools To be honest, I don't know if a nonreligious form of TM would be good for kids or not. Basically, what David Lynch, with inspiration from the late Maharishi, is proposing is large-scale psychological experimentation on school kids. I'm not aware of substantive research on the long-term effects of meditation on children. I imagine some will have abreactions, just as some adults do. Just as I think drugs with negative side-effects need to regulated and monitored, but may be taken safely by most people, it seems to me that many people enjoy their TM -- while a significant minority have problems such as depression, anxiety, dissociation, involuntary tics, etc. I'd sure be more comfortable if researchers would stick to experimenting on monkeys and leave the kids alone. J. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknapp53@ wrote: The upcoming McCartney/Lynch Concert to benefit the David Lynch Foundation will raise funds to teach Transcendental Meditation in the public schools. Many critics feel this is a clear Church/State violation because of the religious trappings of Transcendental Meditation. A group of critics -- including James Randi, Barry Markovsky, Meera Nanda, Andrew Skolnick, myself, and others -- have organized a free web event to discuss this controversy. You may be interested in attending. You can find the details at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/tmconcert.html http://knappfamilycounseling.com/tmconcert.html Since the ruling on TM, back in the late '70's, I can see our school system has really improved in so many ways... Do you really think that practicing TM in schools would be a bad thing? Do you think that ruling did anything to improve the quality of education or the quality of anything? R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
- Original Message - From: Zoran Krneta To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools Secular meditation simply does not exist. Sure it does. You are claiming that secular meditation develops higher state of consciousness too. If you are right than Self realization/God realization are reachable by your secular meditation also. So what are the differences between them? ---VIEW
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
You are claiming that secular meditation develops higher state of consciousness too. I don't see any evidence that they do. I think meditation heightens an awareness of an aspect of our mind that has a small role in who we are or how we perform in the world. What you say is contradiction. If you don’t see evidence then what would be the purpose of doing “meditation that heightens awareness…”?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 24, 2009, at 9:10 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: I disagree with your assessment of the religious nature of TM, but am not inclined to sum up your POV as the result of some negitive emotional state. We just disagree on the religious nature of TM instruction. This doesn't surprise me because you didn't spend many weeks bowing down to the floor to a picture of Maharishi's dead guru after invoking divine and semi divine Gods in the Hindu religion. (Vyasa is 3/4 Vishnu don't ya know.) It is easier for you to ignore its religious roots. This selective memory and selective seeing interests me. It's a universally observable phenomenon in cults like the TMO and the TM mindset. What varies is the degree to which the person suspends their disbelief to allow themselves to be blindsided to the absurdly obvious. I think I already unconsciously use it as a kind of yardstick to see how far some people have gone. At one extreme you have the people like Isaac Tigrette who founded the Hard Rock Cafe and obviously has had to navigate a huge set of factors in the real world of international business to become incredibly successful, but at the same time he can hear all these child molestation things going on with Sai Baba and just decide 'they don't matter because he's a magical avatar'. Any grade-school kid would have to get that he's using sleight of hand. Then at the other end you have people who fudge philosophically smaller, but equally egregious cognitive errors--without ever realizing--or some cases even be willing to accept, that they are clearly erroneous. In many ways the blind acceptance of TM quantum tomfoolery and TM-as-secular BS is really not that different in my yardstick from Christianity or Islam as universal teachings or transubstantiation as real. The zeal of it's believers is quite similar.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Knapp, Knapp, Knapp Christian, Christian, Christian - Original Message - From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John M. Knapp, LMSW You may be interested in attending. What should interest you would be finding a deep hole to jump into. If you won't find anyone who would like to fill the hole afterwards I'd be happy to help. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nablusoss1008 Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 1:19 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknap...@... wrote: Interesting that this question keeps coming up. The really interesting question would be if you dared jump into a very, very deep and dark hole and let someone fill it up with filth and dirth. According to my information And Nabby has some friends in high places, so watch out! fools like you are going out of circulation big time now (after a natural death ofcourse, nothing sinister will happen) and will be kept out of incarnation for a rather long time. You represent energies that are on the way out of this earth anyway so why delay ? Are you suggesting that John off himself, Nabby?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
You all are counting chickens before eggs. Go ahead and waste your minds. - Original Message - From: John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknap...@gmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 6:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools Curtis, As always you make my arguments so much more eloquently than I. I agree my major concern is about the civil liberties aspect of teaching TM in public schools -- and the doors that may be opened by Quiet Time. Should Muslim kids be allowed to pray 5 times a day in public schools? Maybe. But I would have real troubles with Sufi meditation techniques being taught in public schools in their religious form. J. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@ wrote: Since the ruling on TM, back in the late '70's, I can see our school system has really improved in so many ways... I work in schools, in many ways they have improved. Especially with regard to less naivete about the agenda of groups like TM. Do you really think that practicing TM in schools would be a bad thing? No one is saying they can't practice it if their parents want them to. It is presenting it in schools that is the problem for me. I was introduced to TM in my high school. I wish the adults in my world had done a bit more due diligence in checking it out. They seemed to take every claim at face value and it influenced the credibility I gave it to see the adults nodding their heads. Do you think that ruling did anything to improve the quality of education or the quality of anything? I do. I am not against kids having a moment of silence but the indoctrination into the belief system of TM is too much to support for me. Skipping the puja would be a start in the right direction. But this line is very important to keep an eye on with millions of Christians trying to subvert science classes with creationism dressed up as intelligent design. Being very clear about where our beliefs come from is critical for our survival. Blurring this line is dangerous because it makes harder to rank the probability of beliefs if religious concepts are blended with more rigorously supported beliefs. And in today's multicultural school system, it is ridiculous to try to pawn off the Hindu based TM system as scientific. R.G. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknapp53@ wrote: The upcoming McCartney/Lynch Concert to benefit the David Lynch Foundation will raise funds to teach Transcendental Meditation in the public schools. Many critics feel this is a clear Church/State violation because of the religious trappings of Transcendental Meditation. A group of critics -- including James Randi, Barry Markovsky, Meera Nanda, Andrew Skolnick, myself, and others -- have organized a free web event to discuss this controversy. You may be interested in attending. You can find the details at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/tmconcert.html http://knappfamilycounseling.com/tmconcert.html Since the ruling on TM, back in the late '70's, I can see our school system has really improved in so many ways... Do you really think that practicing TM in schools would be a bad thing? Do you think that ruling did anything to improve the quality of education or the quality of anything? R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 23, 2009, at 7:30 PM, John M. Knapp, LMSW wrote: Curtis, As always you make my arguments so much more eloquently than I. I agree my major concern is about the civil liberties aspect of teaching TM in public schools -- and the doors that may be opened by Quiet Time. Should Muslim kids be allowed to pray 5 times a day in public schools? Maybe. But I would have real troubles with Sufi meditation techniques being taught in public schools in their religious form. J. If you missed them, Curtis recently shared some very interesting personal insights into the Christian mystics who (initially) bought into the Universality of TM lie. Later, as it became clear what they were not told, they did what their heart's conscience told them. They split, seeing the TM Universality lie, because they grokked the reality of the situation. Those same Christian mystics have gone on to found even more profoundly personal meditation forms. I do see some universal meditation forms (e.g. InnerKids) which can and are successfully being used, openly and--most of all--freely being shared with school kids, for their benefit and for the future of us all. But TM, with it's cold eye on the buck and a way into our school and healthcare systems needs to revealed for the greedheads they truly are, and the plainly Hindu meditation forms disguised as for everyone. Keep up the Great Work man!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
No offense John, but education is a myth. It works for a few. All education is an experiment. If you look at the WORKS of the educated then you know their education was an experiment in how to step in dogshit. - Original Message - From: John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknap...@gmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 6:26 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools To be honest, I don't know if a nonreligious form of TM would be good for kids or not. Basically, what David Lynch, with inspiration from the late Maharishi, is proposing is large-scale psychological experimentation on school kids. I'm not aware of substantive research on the long-term effects of meditation on children. I imagine some will have abreactions, just as some adults do. Just as I think drugs with negative side-effects need to regulated and monitored, but may be taken safely by most people, it seems to me that many people enjoy their TM -- while a significant minority have problems such as depression, anxiety, dissociation, involuntary tics, etc. I'd sure be more comfortable if researchers would stick to experimenting on monkeys and leave the kids alone. J. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknapp53@ wrote: The upcoming McCartney/Lynch Concert to benefit the David Lynch Foundation will raise funds to teach Transcendental Meditation in the public schools. Many critics feel this is a clear Church/State violation because of the religious trappings of Transcendental Meditation. A group of critics -- including James Randi, Barry Markovsky, Meera Nanda, Andrew Skolnick, myself, and others -- have organized a free web event to discuss this controversy. You may be interested in attending. You can find the details at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/tmconcert.html http://knappfamilycounseling.com/tmconcert.html Since the ruling on TM, back in the late '70's, I can see our school system has really improved in so many ways... Do you really think that practicing TM in schools would be a bad thing? Do you think that ruling did anything to improve the quality of education or the quality of anything? R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
