Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
On 27.05.2007 Andrew Stiller wrote: Yeah, well there are lots of folks here who think that American culture is threatened by the Spanish language. I don't think much of that reasoning no matter where it comes from. I was almost going to make a cynical comment about American Culture, but I will refrain from that, as this discussion is going nowhere. Certainly not in this forum. I do sometimes wonder, however, whether the world could be a better place without some national chauvinisms, and with some more respect for cultures and differences. Not everything the United states export is a blessing. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
The French may have some unusual words for modern terminology, especially in I.T., but I believe their choice of words used for music in general (solfege, music theory etc.) are very appropriate and make both English and American terminology awkward and clinical. But this is a much older and traditionally based language, computer terms are comparatively new and who is to say that the US or any other country for that matter has 'got it right'. You only need to read any computer mag to realise that the vast majority of the terminology has been made up by the techie geeks who are only too happy to try and keep their little world beyond the understanding of the average Joe punter. Is it not the differences between countries and languages that make them so diverse and interesting? Should we all be the same? The world would certainly be a poorer place culturally. On the subject of the actual software, I have noticed that Finale is very popular in France. There are frequent seminars and many music schools and institutions use and teach it. Many examination sheets and short instrumental pieces have been produced in Finale, although with plenty of notational errors! They have a regular french language version which comes out around 9 months after the US version, (2007 came out this last week) this is about the time of the 3rd or 4th tech upgrade to the version ;-) I have yet to come across or hear mention of the Berlioz application so I cannot comment anymore than to say that it doesn't appear to be as popular as Finale. Sibelius also gets a healthy following. Jonathan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
The French-Canadian word for email -- courriel -- is actually very clever (derived from courrier electronique). It's certainly a lot more elegant than le email, which is, I believe, the dominant term in France. Courrieler also makes a much nicer verb than emailer. Québec is usually a lot more hardass about avoiding anglicisms than France (see, for instance, the Québecois le fin-de-semaine instead of the French le weekend). On the one hand, it's obviously a bit silly to try to barricade any language against an influx of foreign loan-words -- on the other hand, I appreciate the impulse to try to come up with idiomatic-sounding terms to describe new technologies and new concepts -- and occasionally, the results are actually pretty clever. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 27 May 2007, at 3:05 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote: The French may have some unusual words for modern terminology, especially in I.T., but I believe their choice of words used for music in general (solfege, music theory etc.) are very appropriate and make both English and American terminology awkward and clinical. But this is a much older and traditionally based language, computer terms are comparatively new and who is to say that the US or any other country for that matter has 'got it right'. You only need to read any computer mag to realise that the vast majority of the terminology has been made up by the techie geeks who are only too happy to try and keep their little world beyond the understanding of the average Joe punter. Is it not the differences between countries and languages that make them so diverse and interesting? Should we all be the same? The world would certainly be a poorer place culturally. On the subject of the actual software, I have noticed that Finale is very popular in France. There are frequent seminars and many music schools and institutions use and teach it. Many examination sheets and short instrumental pieces have been produced in Finale, although with plenty of notational errors! They have a regular french language version which comes out around 9 months after the US version, (2007 came out this last week) this is about the time of the 3rd or 4th tech upgrade to the version ;-) I have yet to come across or hear mention of the Berlioz application so I cannot comment anymore than to say that it doesn't appear to be as popular as Finale. Sibelius also gets a healthy following. Jonathan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Phil Daley wrote: At 01:04 PM 5/26/2007, David W. Fenton wrote: On 26 May 2007 at 12:41, Andrew Stiller wrote: I cannot, for example, imagine any American boy nowadays being denounced as a fairy because he played the clarinet. You must live in an entirely different world than *I* live in! Please clarify. They are still gay? Or you never heard that comment? While I can't verify or discount the claim about sexual preferences, in practically every town around me except two, being in band is certainly not looked on as something which one should be proud of. And that viewpoint in some of the elementary schools comes from the teachers! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
Andrew Stiller wrote: I wished we had more politics like in France protecting many hundred years of German culture. Johannes Yeah, well there are lots of folks here who think that American culture is threatened by the Spanish language. I don't think much of that reasoning no matter where it comes from. We have an American culture? (said with tongue in cheek) After Johannes' post I was thinking Gee, I wish we *had* a culture which we could protect! The American culture has never been monolithic and I don't see the Spanish language threatening what has never existed. I do see it as threatening American citizens' ability to communicate effectively with each other, and I fear that when a country's citizens can no longer effectively communicate with each other, the ability to function as a country is threatened. But a threat to American culture? The culture which has absorbed and included aspects at and contributions from, even while some Americans looked down their noses at, Irish and Italian and French and German and Moravian and Bohemian and Russian and Jewish and various African and Chinese and Japanese and Spanish cultures as well as the cultures of the peoples that the Europeans displaced? If anybody can define American culture in as succinct a manner as they can define French or German or British culture, I will be amazed. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
Courrieler also makes a much nicer verb than emailer. actually i've come across mail more often than email in france: tu m'envoies un mail. and i don't think i've ever heard courriel used as a verb, usually it's envoyer un courriel. but yeah it also is almost the same as courrier, so there is good reason to use this word in particular. Québecois le fin-de-semaine ah but they keep the key words so you can still ask for un [h]otdog all-dress[ed] a'ec ketchup, en ouais let's go man! j'ai full faim. check-moi ça là, ç'est full cool. one anglicism (of sorts) that hasn't made it further into the french language than my friends' ears is coolitude [f], as in ça dégouline de la coolitude, both final -e's of course being VERY non-silent. in québec it would of course have to be crissq'ça coule de coolitude. i expect it to be the next big fad word amongst french speakers though... any minute now. -- shirling neueweise ... new music publishers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Christopher Smith wrote: On May 26, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Phil Daley wrote: Rock music is non-tonal? That's news to me. Doesn't it do 1-4-5-1? Not too much of it these days. I guess you don't put on a radio very often (not that I blame you for that) but I have a thirteen year old, so I hear things that I might not otherwise... And we do have to remember that there is no single musical culture represented by the term rock music. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Aaron Rabushka wrote: Not to mention the Bach chorale the Berg literally quotes in the second movement. I've always been fascinated how his violin concerto can seduce and convine people who think they don't like 20th-century music. They're the same people who love movie music but hate concert music, right? People who won't stand for certain sounds in the concert hall, enjoy experiencing them in movie theaters. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
If anybody can define American culture in as succinct a manner as they can define French or German or British culture, I will be amazed. while canada shares a similar cultural-historic background with the US, being, er... discovered in a similar manner, it is widely known that we canadians are very proud to be able to comprehend and define our national identity in succint terms: we aren't americans. -- shirling neueweise ... new music publishers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
dhbailey wrote: If anybody can define American culture in as succinct a manner as they can define French or German or British culture, I will be amazed. Despite its obvious literary flaws, here is a pretty good attempt: Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp! cries she With silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! (Emma Lazarus, The New Colossus). I read an article somewhere recently by a self-styled jaded European writer who seemed continually amazed that Americans talk about freedom in such an unabashed way. No matter which side of the current US political mess a particular American stands on, a genuine almost naive belief in freedom, both as a concept and as a possibility, seems to be our common ground. The current flap about the huge influx of Spanish speakers across our southern border sounds so similar to the noise we have always had. In the 19th century it was the Irish on East Coast and the Chinese on the west coast. The ones that are here want to keep anyone else from coming. (And some Hispanics are the most virulent about it, too: I am thinking of the political cartoonist Michael Ramirez.) Where I live there has been an astonishing rise in the number of Spanish speakers. So much so that in some pockets of the city it is now the dominant culture. But this does not change the fact that for Spanish speakers, as for every other language that has come here, the next generation speaks English, and learning English is one of the single biggest success factors for upward mobility. Anyone who comes here is highly motivated to learn it if they can. On the Spanish TV channels, every other ad is for an English course. Of course this discussion is about the current US American culture, which so often conveniently forgets about the earlier cultures it obliterated. But that's a discussion for another forum, I think. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
hello, strange isn't it? in most latin american countries lots of folks think their culture is threatened by the ever growing use of english language. just my 2 cents (of devaluated peso) marcelo Yeah, well there are lots of folks here who think that American culture is threatened by the Spanish language. I don't think much of that reasoning no matter where it comes from. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
On May 27, 2007, at 8:17 AM, shirling neueweise wrote: If anybody can define American culture in as succinct a manner as they can define French or German or British culture, I will be amazed. while canada shares a similar cultural-historic background with the US, being, er... discovered in a similar manner, it is widely known that we canadians are very proud to be able to comprehend and define our national identity in succint terms: we aren't americans. A-yup! That's Canadians all over; we don't know what we are, but we know what we're NOT! Christopher (please like us, please? please?) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
On May 26, 2007, at 9:09 PM, John Howell wrote: Andrew wrote: And another thing: non-tonal and atonal are not synonyms. I often agree with Andrew and respect his depth of knowledge, which goes well beyond my own, and with this I can definitely agree. But again, I read in his comments that he's referring to the use of common-practice functional harmony and NOT simply to the presence of absence of a tonal center. That is correct. The reason I do so is that atonality is a highly restricted idiom both culturally and chronologically. It is so small a portion of the total body of human music, that to make the dichotomy tonal/atonal on the basis you prefer is as fundamentally silly as to divide all music into impressionist vs. non-impressionist. Beyond that, if tonal and atonal are considered as co-equal terms, that ironically gives to atonal music a prominence and importance far beyond what it deserves. Finally, if tonal means any music with a tonal center, than what are we to call the harmonic idiom of 1660-1900--for which, I might add, the adjective tonal was originally employed? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
At 10:43 PM -0400 5/26/07, Aaron Rabushka wrote: So does non-Western include Appalachian fiddle tunes (often not tonal) OH? Not what I've heard. Very tonal, unless of course you discount modality. And very much tied to the open strings for tonal centers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
At 10:48 PM -0400 5/26/07, Aaron Rabushka wrote: Hmm--I never heard of Charles Whittenberg, but if he sounds like me he must have something on the ball! And yes, there was chromaticism before Wagner (late Gesualdo madrigals, anyone?). Or Lasso's Sybillene Prophecy music? (remember those, John H?) Oh yes!! And not only them, but De Rore, Marenzio, Luzzeschi, and that young whippersnapper, Monteverdi, each in his own way. It was in the air. (Or maybe the water!) Only Claudio went more for unexpected dissonance than for temporarily shifting or temporarily unclear tonal centers. But Lasso sure showed that he could do it, if he felt like it! (Mostly he didn't feel like it.) The challenge in performing the late Italian madrigalists is not just the chromaticism, but figuring out how to adjust the intervals to keep them pure in the midst of meandering tonal centers. Equal temperament need not apply!!! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: American culture (sorry - a tad long)
On 26 May 2007 at 18:01, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: I'll admit, a slight exaggeration, John, but I'm not talking the Met. Read what I said: every last small town had its Opera House. And, despite your information offered in response to my e-mail, even those somewhat larger, including your very own hometown of Seattle - dating back to the 1870's! (Read below.)I'm talking those buildings built as - and called 'Opera Houses.'Which were the cultural centers of ubiquitous towns. Which weren't usually the 800-seat caverns (such as the Millett Opera House in Austin, TX) but were usually more often the smaller venues which hosted amateur local presentations of everything from G S prods to scenes from grand opera to instrumental recitals. I don't actually have any historicaly documentation to prove this, but my understanding is that opera house in this period was just a synonym for big theater that hosts all kinds of shows. Some of the actually were operas (travelling companies), but most of them would be popular entertainments, burlesques, visiting speakers (Mark Twain travelled a lot and gave speeches all over), and so forth. My understanding, which may very well be completelyl mistaken, was that these venues had little to do with what we today consider opera. Maybe operetta, but that was considered popular entertainment at the time. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: American culture (sorry - a tad long)
On 26 May 2007 at 18:01, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: The whole point of this sidebar thread (and to which I believe you agreed) is that 'classical' music in 19th century America was a tad more ubiquitous than may be the perception. I think you're completely missing the point. The real point is that our modern distinction of classical vs. popular didn't really exist. A lot of things that we consider art today were seen commonly in popular venues. But I don't believe that anything close to a majority of the popular entertainments put on in these opera houses were art music at all, partly because the distinction post-dates the period, but also because even if we were to apply this anachronistic definition of art music, I believe that the prevalence of things we'd see today as art music was pretty small as a percentage of the season's program in the vast majority of these opera houses. The exceptions to this would be the big cities with large ethnic populations from cultures that liked their opera (mostly the Italians and Germans). I believe there weren't large enough ethnic enclaves in very many places at all to support pure opera houses in the same sense that the Met is an opera house. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: American culture (was John Cage's)
At 10:51 PM -0400 5/26/07, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: But my 'cultural shift' is not focused on the distant history, and I believe it has no influence today. America doesn't have much of a collective cultural memory, so it wouldn't matter if the American orchestras had appeared suddenly in 1930 from the planet Zombartumian. A well-considered post, Dennis, and a welcome one. America is not Europe and never will be. Just ask any Kodály-trained teacher about finding America's folk music in such a polyglot population. And one cultural difference is the expectation, perhaps never even questioned, that in European cultures the arts are worthy of support by the government, while over here they never have been. The heritage on the other side of the pond is support of the arts--for very personal reasons of prestige, of course--by the rich and socially important class, and by the state churches that were supported by the same upper class. By those, in other words, who WERE the governments. Yes, the U.S. does have a long legacy of individuals who, whether self-made or heirs, self-educated or university, had open minds toward the arts and culture. Endowments from them built the opera houses and the libraries, and created collections that became their own museums or were given to museums. And those were the robber barons who amassed personal wealth through monopolies and sharp business dealings, and wanted the prestige that went along with supporting the arts. An American aristocracy, if you like, but one based only on economics and not hereditary importance. In twenty years, there were few to play, fewer to teach, and even fewer to listen. Attributes of cultural significance were rooted about for instead in the pop world, and a veritable industry of assigning meaning has grown from the fertilizer. Perhaps. But those noting the growth and number of school bands and orchestras and to some extent choruses over the past 50 years might disagree, as would those tracking the establishment of community, non-professional bands and orchestras and choruses to serve both the general public as audience and the musicians who want to keep performing. Sure, the numbers are probably small compared with those who think music is what comes out of their iPods, but the numbers are not insignificant, and the participation of the schools is a decidedly NON-European development and a positive one. (Disagree? Show me a station or orchestra that has voluntarily shut down because it believed itself to be culturally [rather than economically] bankrupt, no matter how many artistic mediocritizations it capitulated to.) Well, our local NPR station (operating relatively independently but under the aegis of our university foundation) underwent a revolution of sorts about 10-15 years ago when the station manager was following the dictates of some study or other with the attitude that cultural means multicultural, heavy on space music and such, and the listener base revolted and put pressure on the foundation to get rid of him. In fact the straw that did it was his intention of cancelling the Met broadcasts as being too elitist. The slogan currently is Classical, Jazz, NPR. And there is the cultural shift -- not from the late 19th century but rather from the late 20th. A valuable outlook Dennis. Thank you! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
On 26 May 2007 at 22:51, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Star Wars with John Williams's retro-heist from The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex. I thought it was from King's Road? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's/19th century - and beyond!
At 10:03 PM -0700 5/26/07, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: There *were* no American symphony orchestras in the mid-late 19th c.except for the NY Phil and Theodore Thomas's touring outfit. And Les replies: Andrew, with considerable respect, that just isn't the case whatsoever: I referenced in a previous e-mail symphony orchestras and opera companies sprouting everywhere the mid-to late 1800's, and that was happening. Perhaps not in every single case as permanent, fixed, still-in-existence-to-this-day orchestras, but sure-enough symphony orchestras. I referenced elsewhere the timeline of today's New York Phil from its roots in 1842, but even previous to that, there was an unrelated precedent Philharmonic in New York from 1824 - 1827; in no particular order, only some of those American symphony orchestras I cite (and this is ONLY a brief list:) the American premiere of Messiah was given in New York in 1831 with an orchestra; the Brooklyn Philharmonic had sprung up by 1862. The Chicago Orchestra was in existence by the very early 1890's; the 1869 and 1872 Boston Jubilee concerts of orchestral/choral work; by 1878 Theodore Thomas had established his orchestra at the Cincinnati College of Music and was playing a 24-concert annual series - again, in 1878. The Pittsburgh Orchestra came into being in 1896. Boston Symphony Orchestra in 1881. But Andrew: even predating the founding of the BSO, the world premiere of Tchaikovsky's b-minor Piano Concerto took place in Bostonon October 25, 1875.with a symphony orchestra! Hi again, Les. I think any gigging musician would pick up on something important in your brief listing. With an orchestra, concerts of orchestral/choral work, and with a symphony orchestra do NOT in any way imply an orchestra that existed for more than those performances, what we would call a pickup orchestra. Heck, that's exactly the kind of orchestra Beethoven put together from his friends in Vienna, since there WAS no Vienna Phil during his lifetime! I've played gigs at a lot of churches, but it would not be correct to say that those churches have orchestras. Nor do I think a conservatory orchestra, no matter how active a season, should count, although any given conservatory orchestra may indeed have been very significant historically. What do you have on Oberlin? And of course the orchestras (or performances) you cite are exactly where I predicted they would be, on the East Coast in seaport cities, and then on the riverport cities which were next to grow into their cultural expectations. Not that I disagree with your thesis, which I think is a good one if perhaps a bit exaggerated, but there certainly should be some criterion of length of existence before an orchestra can be considered more established than just a pickup group. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Perhaps it may be a geeky pecadillo on my part, but tonal requires that the tonal center (or the tonal center of the moment, as it may be) be established by it's own dominant and leading tone (thank you IU theory department!). So modal (including the pentatonic modes with no 7th and the hexatonic with a flatted 7th) doesn't qualify. And of course (and fortunately) it is not necessary to agree with this (or even understand it) to enjoy the music. And speaking of atonality, who here has NOT had the experience of hearing an amateur children's choir's performance where no parent complained a bit about the atonality being produced? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: John Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960) At 10:48 PM -0400 5/26/07, Aaron Rabushka wrote: Hmm--I never heard of Charles Whittenberg, but if he sounds like me he must have something on the ball! And yes, there was chromaticism before Wagner (late Gesualdo madrigals, anyone?). Or Lasso's Sybillene Prophecy music? (remember those, John H?) Oh yes!! And not only them, but De Rore, Marenzio, Luzzeschi, and that young whippersnapper, Monteverdi, each in his own way. It was in the air. (Or maybe the water!) Only Claudio went more for unexpected dissonance than for temporarily shifting or temporarily unclear tonal centers. But Lasso sure showed that he could do it, if he felt like it! (Mostly he didn't feel like it.) The challenge in performing the late Italian madrigalists is not just the chromaticism, but figuring out how to adjust the intervals to keep them pure in the midst of meandering tonal centers. Equal temperament need not apply!!! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's/19th century - and beyond!
John Howell wrote (in response to my listing of some 19th-century American orchestras:) Not that I disagree with your thesis, which I think is a good one if perhaps a bit exaggerated, but there certainly should be some criterion of length of existence before an orchestra can be considered more established than just a pickup group. And Les says: But that was never part of the premise, John!I was responding to Andrew's statement that there was There *were* no American symphony orchestras in the mid-late 19th c.except for the NY Phil and Theodore Thomas's touring outfit. Period! No exceptions were made for permanency or length of existence!! And in any event, of the refutations I presented (besides the NYPO in 1842,) many actually WERE the root foundings of permanent orchestras: Chicago Orchestra in 1891 (to later become the CSO), Pittsburgh 1896, Boston 1881...and I'll add the 1893 Philadelphia Symphony Society, which formed the basis of the Philadelphia Orchestra. Best, Les Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: American culture (sorry - a tad long)
To try to move this thread back to where it began (for me at least) which was the contention I made that symphony orchestras and opera companies were springing up all over America during the mid to late 19th century: Regarding the title 'Opera House' you're absolutely right, David - but my intention was never to demonstrate that the ubiquitous 'Opera House' in nearly every small town of the 19th century was dedicated solely to opera or classical music - but that those venues (from the very small to the large) DID provide for a performance space which was given over to SOME classical music.And that various forms of amateur - through professional classical soloists, opera excerpts or full-length productions, chamber and orchestral concerts were presented in towns from the very small to the very large. My contention was - and remains: that in 19th century America, there was a thirst/hunger for 'sophisticated' entertainment (whether fully understood or no by the eager audience) all over the country, which was satisfied in many ways. You've noted your classification as popular of some forms of musical arts I would consider to be along the lines of 'serious' music: (i.e. virtuosic pianism such as Liszt's, Gottschalk's, Jenny Lind's tours which contained a great deal of opera arias, cantata arias - in addition to popular song of the period) and so we simply have a disagreement on what is and is not 'classical.' So you and I may not agree on what is and is not art - or even non-pop music. But if you consider grand opera to be serious art music, then, please consider this: And my apologies, but I REALLY do find this specific subject within music history absolutely fascinating: I cited the book Verdi at the Golden Gate: Opera and San Francisco in the Gold Rush Years by George Martin (University of California Press, 1993, ISBN 0-520-08123-4) Only ONE city; only one composer's works/stats: SanFrancisco's Population:1850: 34,776 1860: 56,802 San Fran Opera Houses:Seating Capacity: Year Built: 1. Jenny Lind (1)400 1850 Jenny Lind (2)700 1851 Jenny Lind (3) 2,000 1851 2. Adelphi (1)400 1850 Adelphi (2)700 1851 3.Metropolitan (1) 2,000 1853 Metropolitan (2) 2,000 1861 4. American (1)2,000 1851 American (2)2,000 1854 American (3)2,800 1859 5. San Francisco Hall (became:) 700 1852 Maguire's Opera House (1)1,100 1856 Maguire's Opera House (2)1,700 1858 Maguire's Opera House (3)1,700 1859 By 1853 there were 5 large opera houses in San Francisco alone.A city with a population (at that time) of about 40,000.The theatres I've listed were burned down and rebuilt, or (in one case - sank two inches on opening night - built on landfill) but represent 5 separate theatres serving up - primarily in each theatre's case opera. And what operatic works? Grand opera. Fully-produced with full casts and full orchestra. Some of the reviews from the SF productions are amazing to me in their sophistication of this then-new music. Fascinating to me - and looking just at the example of Verdi: WORLD PREMIERE US PREMIERE SAN FRANCISCO PREMIERE Nabucco (as Nabucodonosor) Milan (Scala) 1842 NY (Astor Place Opera House) 1848 SF: (Metropolitan) 1854 I LombardiMilan 1843 NY (Palmo's Opera House) 1847SF (Met) 1855 ErnaniVenice (Fenice) 1844 NY (Park Theatre) 1847SF (Adelphi) 1851 I due Foscari Rome (Argentina) 1844 BOSTON: (Howard-Atheneum) 1847 SF (American) 1855 AttilaVenice (Felice) 1846NY: (Niblo's Garden) 1850SF (American) 1859 Macbeth Florence (Pergola) 1847 NY: (Niblo's Garden) 1850SF (Maguire's) 1862 I masnadieri LONDON (Her Maj's) 1847NY: (Winter Garden) 1860SF (Metropolitan) 1863 Luisa MillerNaples (San Carlo) 1849 PHILADELPHIA (Walnut Street) 1852 SF: (Met) 1863 Trovatore Rome (Apollo) 1853NY (Academy of Music) 1855SF: (Maguire's) 1859 TraviataVenice (Felice) 1853NY (Academy of Music) 1856SF: (American) 1859 (I won't waste more bandwidth, but the Verdi oeuvre continues with similar date relationships for his remaining output.) As I first noted, symphony orchestras (as cited in a
Re: [Finale] Languages
Henry E. Howey wrote: I wonder how much of the language fear is sheer ignorance. I learned Spanish at age 11. As a result, several other languages were later not such a problem. I tend to feel guilty when I'm in a country with a minority language that I don't know it. I dunno, but I can guarantee that a lot of people here (and I live about 20 miles from the border with Mexico) have no facility whatsoever for language, and even with a lifetime of exposure do not pick up more than a few words. And this excludes those who refuse to try for whatever reason. You may be lucky that you have little difficulty learning languages, but a lot of people do have trouble, and I can think of more than a few who are not even fully fluent in one. cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# http://members.cox.net/dershem ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
At 01:44 PM 5/27/2007 -0400, David W. Fenton wrote: On 26 May 2007 at 22:51, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Star Wars with John Williams's retro-heist from The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex. I thought it was from King's Road? Maybe both? I don't know the latter, but I have the soundtrack for EE. I played it for a class of schoolkids when I was teaching, and they all cried out Star Wars! Yay! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
I perceive that there is a hang up on this thread, that we gotta have a leading tone present to qualify for tonality. Tonality can also be established by just plain harmonies or single chords. If you have a perfect fifth, or perfect fourth in a vertical aggregate, you have, according to Schenker, a tonal center present. Dean On May 26, 2007, at 7:03 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 26, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Phil Daley wrote: Rock music is non-tonal? That's news to me. Doesn't it do 1-4-5-1? No it doesn't. The vast majority of rock music is cast in the dorian or mixolydian modes, neither of which possesses a leading tone. Furthermore, it is derived from the 12-bar blues, which is itself decidedly non-tonal (3 parallel, four-note chords, including what in tonal music would be a [forbidden] retrogression). It's non-tonal nature allows rock music to be unusually flexible in its chordal sequences, and a strong final cadence can be formed from any chord directly to the home chord. The one exception to this is the authentic cadence, which is for the most part found only in parodies of classical style (e.g. in Bohemian Rhapsody). Because the music is not tonal, some chords that are routine--even banal--in tonal music have a strikingly different effect when used in a rock song. My favorite example of this is the song She's Not There: the chorus rocks gently between D minor and A minor (the home key is A dorian), until the words Don't bother trying to find her, she's not there, where the progression is Dminor, C, E. Now, E major is the ordinary dominant chord in A minor and is utterly routine for music in that key; but in this song it strikes the ear as a completely unexpected altered chord, whose uncanniness perfectly illustrates the text. It is not tonal. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
At 8:02 AM -0400 5/27/07, dhbailey wrote: We have an American culture? (said with tongue in cheek) After Johannes' post I was thinking Gee, I wish we *had* a culture which we could protect! I think it was Gandhi who, when asked about Western Culture, commented that, It would be a wonderful idea! The American culture has never been monolithic and I don't see the Spanish language threatening what has never existed. I do see it as threatening American citizens' ability to communicate effectively with each other, and I fear that when a country's citizens can no longer effectively communicate with each other, the ability to function as a country is threatened. Case in point. I grew up 30 miles north of Seattle. If there was any defining ethnicity there it was scandinavian. Lutefisk and leftse were not consumed in quantity, but were sung about by such as Stan Boreson, and the nearby Smorgasbord was a real treat after church on Sunday. Last time I spent several weeks' time there, big changes. No sign of scandinavian culture, but entire shopping centers where all the signage was in Korean without translation. Now there have always been a good number of orientals in the Pacific Northwest (making it the only place my wife could buy shoes that fit!), but that kind of thing is self-ghettoization and really surprised me. We think of Roanoke as being quite multicultural, and have festivals to celebrate it, and our campus is extremely international in character, but not with businesses that don't welcome English-speakers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
At 12:12 PM -0400 5/27/07, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 26, 2007, at 9:09 PM, John Howell wrote: Andrew wrote: And another thing: non-tonal and atonal are not synonyms. I often agree with Andrew and respect his depth of knowledge, which goes well beyond my own, and with this I can definitely agree. But again, I read in his comments that he's referring to the use of common-practice functional harmony and NOT simply to the presence of absence of a tonal center. That is correct. The reason I do so is that atonality is a highly restricted idiom both culturally and chronologically. It is so small a portion of the total body of human music, that to make the dichotomy tonal/atonal on the basis you prefer is as fundamentally silly as to divide all music into impressionist vs. non-impressionist. Beyond that, if tonal and atonal are considered as co-equal terms, that ironically gives to atonal music a prominence and importance far beyond what it deserves. Finally, if tonal means any music with a tonal center, than what are we to call the harmonic idiom of 1660-1900--for which, I might add, the adjective tonal was originally employed? At least it's clear that we're using the word in very different ways, which is useful to understand. For the common-practice period I find that the music is overwhelmingly tonal (having tonal centers) of course, with the harmonic idiom being that of functional harmony. But to me that's two definitions looking at two aspects, tonal centeredness and harmonic usage. Tonality does not require functional harmony, and is not restricted to either major-minor tonality nor to common-practice harmonic usage. Your mileage clearly does differ. I agree of course, that atonality is highly restricted culturally and chronologically, but also feel that by far the majority of all music of all times and all places (of which we can be aware) is tonal. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Languages
At 11:25 AM -0700 5/27/07, Carl Dershem wrote: Henry E. Howey wrote: I wonder how much of the language fear is sheer ignorance. I learned Spanish at age 11. As a result, several other languages were later not such a problem. I tend to feel guilty when I'm in a country with a minority language that I don't know it. I dunno, but I can guarantee that a lot of people here (and I live about 20 miles from the border with Mexico) have no facility whatsoever for language, and even with a lifetime of exposure do not pick up more than a few words. And this excludes those who refuse to try for whatever reason. You may be lucky that you have little difficulty learning languages, but a lot of people do have trouble, and I can think of more than a few who are not even fully fluent in one. My mother, on the other hand, was a whiz at languages of necessity. Her father was Scots-American, her mother from somewhere in Eastern Europe that was conquered by somebody else every 20 years and where language facility was a survival factor. Her first language in the home was Scots Gaelic, and English was a second language. As foreign language supervisor in our school district, she would interview prospective teachers in the language they were expected to teach, which really threw some of them for a loop! And at a conference where presenters wanted to demonstrate a new teaching technique they had to come up with a language that none of the foreign language teachers already knew. (They settled on Swahili!!) Then there was my second viola teacher at Indiana, after Mr. Primrose left. He was Swiss, I think, and like most educated Europeans was fluent in several languages (including Hungarian) and functional in several more. My lessons were in English, since his English was better than my French, but not much! One of his other students finally got across that while the upper arm was the upper arm, the forearm was not the underarm!! And during the Oberlin Baroque Performance Institute, the Europeans at mealtimes would collect their trays and switch languages as they moved from table to table! Americans! Babies John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
When my English ancestors came here in the 1630s, my Cherokee ancestors were already here. My Scots-Irish, Irish and Dutch ancestors got here just in time to fight the armies of King George (III). I am about as American as it gets. I have no relatives (at least that I know of) in any other country. I am a Native-American and not just because of my Cherokee ancestry. But my history is very different from many other equally American people. Human history is full of migrations, expansions, occupations, enslavements and other types of cultural change. Ask my Irish ancestors about their treatment at the hands of my English ancestors. American culture is a combination of all of the people who have settled here for whatever reason and it's different from region to region. It is not absent. Some Americans should stop trying to be European and be themselves. Rant over. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:12 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme At 8:02 AM -0400 5/27/07, dhbailey wrote: We have an American culture? (said with tongue in cheek) After Johannes' post I was thinking Gee, I wish we *had* a culture which we could protect! I think it was Gandhi who, when asked about Western Culture, commented that, It would be a wonderful idea! The American culture has never been monolithic and I don't see the Spanish language threatening what has never existed. I do see it as threatening American citizens' ability to communicate effectively with each other, and I fear that when a country's citizens can no longer effectively communicate with each other, the ability to function as a country is threatened. Case in point. I grew up 30 miles north of Seattle. If there was any defining ethnicity there it was scandinavian. Lutefisk and leftse were not consumed in quantity, but were sung about by such as Stan Boreson, and the nearby Smorgasbord was a real treat after church on Sunday. Last time I spent several weeks' time there, big changes. No sign of scandinavian culture, but entire shopping centers where all the signage was in Korean without translation. Now there have always been a good number of orientals in the Pacific Northwest (making it the only place my wife could buy shoes that fit!), but that kind of thing is self-ghettoization and really surprised me. We think of Roanoke as being quite multicultural, and have festivals to celebrate it, and our campus is extremely international in character, but not with businesses that don't welcome English-speakers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Aaron Rabushka wrote: Perhaps it may be a geeky pecadillo on my part, but tonal requires that the tonal center (or the tonal center of the moment, as it may be) be established by it's own dominant and leading tone (thank you IU theory department!). So modal (including the pentatonic modes with no 7th and the hexatonic with a flatted 7th) doesn't qualify. And of course (and fortunately) it is not necessary to agree with this (or even understand it) to enjoy the music. That seems to be a totally arbitrary distinction, since lots of songs which can be harmonized very easily with typical I and IV and V chords don't use the leading tone at all, not even a flatted 7th. Does that make them nontonal when they don't include a chordal instrument and tonal when they do? I would think that tonal music would be music where anybody could easily point to the tonic and say That's the tonic. And non-tonal music would be where nobody could point to such a thing. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I perceive that there is a hang up on this thread, that we gotta have a leading tone present to qualify for tonality. Tonality can also be established by just plain harmonies or single chords. If you have a perfect fifth, or perfect fourth in a vertical aggregate, you have, according to Schenker, a tonal center present. Oh, there you go, bringing in a major theorist and trying to quell our own little it's tonal when I say it's tonal arguments! Sure, ruin my Sunday, why don't you! :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
At 12:00 PM 5/26/2007, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: I don't have any answers, but there is a cultural shift that isn't limited to the US. The post below appeared on the Two New Hours list a few days ago (Larry Lake is the host of Two New Hours, canceled in March after a quarter century on the air). Here is Russell Smith's column in today's Globe and Mail: This is perfect. Exactly what I am trying to say. - How pop has taken over the arts RUSSELL SMITH May 24, 2007 The word culture in media now means what was once called mass or popular culture; the word art - when it is used at all - means what we once called entertainment. Examples of this are everywhere: Almost no North American newspaper has a section called Arts any more because it would be dishonest. The Boston Globe does. The word music has suffered the same fate. Popular music no longer must be specified as such; it's just music. It's the other forms of music that need a qualifier. In other words, music tends not to include classical music, which is an obscure niche not unlike the fetish section of your adult video store. Exactly what I have been saying. THhs article is great. It's not included in most discussions of the form. (Actually, that's probably a bad example. Fetish porn is usually discussed or at least acknowledged in discussions of pornography, whereas classical music simply does not exist in most mediated discussions of music. If you wanted to extend the pornographic metaphor a little, you could say that classical music is a bit like the old videos that the pornographers now label natural and classify as a fetish. They put the videos of un-enhanced women in the freaky section beside Latex Hotel and Plushy Party.) Well, that is little beyond what I was saying. Maybe this guy is a little overdone? Similarly, any culture section of a TV or radio news hour now means pop culture: It means discussion of hip hop and new trends in home decor. Again, I'm not denying that these things are culture, just pointing out that they're a particular kind of culture and not, I would say, representative of all culture. Exactly. I think the people on this list are very insular and don't have a conception of how classical music is viewed by the general public. What do I mean by this? I mean that every time I hear this usage, I feel excluded, and I feel I am meant to: I am meant to be reminded of my archaism, my elitism, whatever that means, my essential difference from normal people. It's me who is out of place, me and all my unpleasant educated colleagues who insist on remaining all snotty about uncool and unlucrative things such as music without singing (and visual art and architecture and Web art and installation art and art theory and art criticism). Every time I hear an interview with an American sitcom actor referred to as culture - and culture it certainly is, although culture of a particular and narrow kind - I hear the low voice of normalcy murmuring in my ear: Give up. It's all over. Just give up. How many people here can relate to that statement? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: American culture (sorry - a tad long)
On 27 May 2007 at 11:47, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Regarding the title 'Opera House' you're absolutely right, David - but my intention was never to demonstrate that the ubiquitous 'Opera House' in nearly every small town of the 19th century was dedicated solely to opera or classical music - but that those venues (from the very small to the large) DID provide for a performance space which was given over to SOME classical music. My point was that the word opera in the names of these venues does not imply that even one opera was ever performed in any of them. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Sorry ... grad school coming back to haunt me er, us. At least I didn't follow it with a QED. Dean On May 27, 2007, at 2:48 PM, dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I perceive that there is a hang up on this thread, that we gotta have a leading tone present to qualify for tonality. Tonality can also be established by just plain harmonies or single chords. If you have a perfect fifth, or perfect fourth in a vertical aggregate, you have, according to Schenker, a tonal center present. Oh, there you go, bringing in a major theorist and trying to quell our own little it's tonal when I say it's tonal arguments! Sure, ruin my Sunday, why don't you! :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: American culture (sorry - a tad long)
On 27 May 2007 at 11:47, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: Simply looking at the touring or location-based companies OR theatres presenting opera in NY, Boston, Philly, and then-small SF from the 1850's I've noted above, with ONLY Verdi premieres cited - I would hope - give flight to the erroneous premise that there were nearly no such productions in the country during the given years. That would be disposing of an argument that I don't see that anyone at all has made. You cite the big cities. I already disposed of those (in my discussion of large ethnic subgroups in the big cities), because they were not what we were talking about -- we were talking about the smaller towns and mid-sized cities, which I understand you to be claiming had institutions that regularly performed what we would call art music. I don't dispute that. What I dispute is the idea that these performances were anything other than popular entertainments, just like the appearances of various opera singers on The Tonight Show or David Letterman. They elevate the tone of the venue but don't change its fundamentally popular nature. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
I would enjoy seeing a lot of Americans stop trying to be whatever their ancestors were, and just be Americans ... else why be here? [Simplistic, I know] Dean On May 27, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Richard Smith wrote: Snip American culture is a combination of all of the people who have settled here for whatever reason and it's different from region to region. It is not absent. Some Americans should stop trying to be European and be themselves. Rant over. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:12 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme At 8:02 AM -0400 5/27/07, dhbailey wrote: We have an American culture? (said with tongue in cheek) After Johannes' post I was thinking Gee, I wish we *had* a culture which we could protect! I think it was Gandhi who, when asked about Western Culture, commented that, It would be a wonderful idea! The American culture has never been monolithic and I don't see the Spanish language threatening what has never existed. I do see it as threatening American citizens' ability to communicate effectively with each other, and I fear that when a country's citizens can no longer effectively communicate with each other, the ability to function as a country is threatened. Case in point. I grew up 30 miles north of Seattle. If there was any defining ethnicity there it was scandinavian. Lutefisk and leftse were not consumed in quantity, but were sung about by such as Stan Boreson, and the nearby Smorgasbord was a real treat after church on Sunday. Last time I spent several weeks' time there, big changes. No sign of scandinavian culture, but entire shopping centers where all the signage was in Korean without translation. Now there have always been a good number of orientals in the Pacific Northwest (making it the only place my wife could buy shoes that fit!), but that kind of thing is self-ghettoization and really surprised me. We think of Roanoke as being quite multicultural, and have festivals to celebrate it, and our campus is extremely international in character, but not with businesses that don't welcome English-speakers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
On 27 May 2007 at 12:45, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I perceive that there is a hang up on this thread, that we gotta have a leading tone present to qualify for tonality. Tonality can also be established by just plain harmonies or single chords. If you have a perfect fifth, or perfect fourth in a vertical aggregate, you have, according to Schenker, a tonal center present. Many words have more than one meaning, often a very specific one and a generalized one. When some people use tonal they mean functional tonality. Others mean merely music with a tonal center. Andrew quite clearly used it in the former sense, which I think should have been pretty clear to all given the music he was describing as non-tonal. Neither is right. Neither is wrong. It depends on context. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's/19th century - and beyond!
On 27 May 2007 at 12:00, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: John Howell wrote (in response to my listing of some 19th-century American orchestras:) Not that I disagree with your thesis, which I think is a good one if perhaps a bit exaggerated, but there certainly should be some criterion of length of existence before an orchestra can be considered more established than just a pickup group. And Les says: But that was never part of the premise, John! But it was clearly part of Andrew's premise: I was responding to Andrew's statement that there was There *were* no American symphony orchestras in the mid-late 19th c.except for the NY Phil and Theodore Thomas's touring outfit. That clearly means established standing orchestras, which is pretty obvious from the two examples given. You did not cite any standing orchestras that lasted any length of time to refute his main point. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Languages
And I found it very striking that when they recorded my trombone concert, soloist and conductor did not have a language in common at all, yet the collaboration was flawless. Perhaps sometimes the bit about music being the universal language wins out. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
Yes, perhaps abritraray and capricious. As are all other attempts to resolve this tonal/non-tonal dichotomy. Good thing that good/great music doesn't have to pass any theory exams. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960) Aaron Rabushka wrote: Perhaps it may be a geeky pecadillo on my part, but tonal requires that the tonal center (or the tonal center of the moment, as it may be) be established by it's own dominant and leading tone (thank you IU theory department!). So modal (including the pentatonic modes with no 7th and the hexatonic with a flatted 7th) doesn't qualify. And of course (and fortunately) it is not necessary to agree with this (or even understand it) to enjoy the music. That seems to be a totally arbitrary distinction, since lots of songs which can be harmonized very easily with typical I and IV and V chords don't use the leading tone at all, not even a flatted 7th. Does that make them nontonal when they don't include a chordal instrument and tonal when they do? I would think that tonal music would be music where anybody could easily point to the tonic and say That's the tonic. And non-tonal music would be where nobody could point to such a thing. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
Hmm. It's often the first generation or two that comes to American and/or is born here that acts as if being American means killing all old-country culture. Succeeding generations often then try to reclaim what was lost as part of their American freedom. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme I would enjoy seeing a lot of Americans stop trying to be whatever their ancestors were, and just be Americans ... else why be here? [Simplistic, I know] Dean On May 27, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Richard Smith wrote: Snip American culture is a combination of all of the people who have settled here for whatever reason and it's different from region to region. It is not absent. Some Americans should stop trying to be European and be themselves. Rant over. Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Howell Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:12 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme At 8:02 AM -0400 5/27/07, dhbailey wrote: We have an American culture? (said with tongue in cheek) After Johannes' post I was thinking Gee, I wish we *had* a culture which we could protect! I think it was Gandhi who, when asked about Western Culture, commented that, It would be a wonderful idea! The American culture has never been monolithic and I don't see the Spanish language threatening what has never existed. I do see it as threatening American citizens' ability to communicate effectively with each other, and I fear that when a country's citizens can no longer effectively communicate with each other, the ability to function as a country is threatened. Case in point. I grew up 30 miles north of Seattle. If there was any defining ethnicity there it was scandinavian. Lutefisk and leftse were not consumed in quantity, but were sung about by such as Stan Boreson, and the nearby Smorgasbord was a real treat after church on Sunday. Last time I spent several weeks' time there, big changes. No sign of scandinavian culture, but entire shopping centers where all the signage was in Korean without translation. Now there have always been a good number of orientals in the Pacific Northwest (making it the only place my wife could buy shoes that fit!), but that kind of thing is self-ghettoization and really surprised me. We think of Roanoke as being quite multicultural, and have festivals to celebrate it, and our campus is extremely international in character, but not with businesses that don't welcome English-speakers. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/821 - Release Date: 5/27/2007 3:05 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's/19th century - and beyond!
Really - everyone -- my apologies for this thing being dragged on so long, but I really feel the facts are too important: David says (in reference to my quotation including Andrew's direct quote!): (Les Said:) I was responding to Andrew's statement that there was There *were* no American symphony orchestras in the mid-late 19th c.except for the NY Phil and Theodore Thomas's touring outfit. David replied: That clearly means established standing orchestras, which is pretty obvious from the two examples given. You did not cite any standing orchestras that lasted any length of time to refute his main point. First, David - I think we're getting to the point of splitting nucleons: Read Andrew's line. No implication of ANY permanence; his highlighting is vividly clear by his use of *were* no American symphony orchestras.No American symphony orchestras, no criteria.Period. Which - even granted your definition, is still not factually correct - behold a list of currently-extant American symphony orchestras established in the following years (and note: as the 20th century is usually accepted as having begun on Jan 1, 1901 - I've included a couple from 1900. All may find to be in existence today; certainly we all know the tale of the New York Phil/Symphony merger: 1841-2 New York Philharmonic Society 1878 New York Symphony Society 1880 St. Louis Symphony Orchestra 1893 Philadelphia Symphony Society (to become the Philadelphia Orchestra) 1895 Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra 1900 Dallas Symphony Orchestra 1900 Honolulu Symphony Orchestra I've removed at least 10 other orchestras from as early as 1818 - and found claims of symphony orchestras in the US going back to 1799 - simply to preserve the list as acceptable to your definition, though I disagree that I really need to do so: as one which contains only orchestras still around today.But certainly, I hope you will have to accept from this data that Andrew's statement - even within your defined parameters - is not correct. I've found many other references to professional orchestras in existence in the mid to late 1800's for three to ten or more years, playing regular seasonsnow defunct. And many many more to non-pro groups. Best, Les Les Marsden Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: David W. Fenton To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's/19th century - and beyond! On 27 May 2007 at 12:00, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: John Howell wrote (in response to my listing of some 19th-century American orchestras:) Not that I disagree with your thesis, which I think is a good one if perhaps a bit exaggerated, but there certainly should be some criterion of length of existence before an orchestra can be considered more established than just a pickup group. And Les says: But that was never part of the premise, John! But it was clearly part of Andrew's premise: I was responding to Andrew's statement that there was There *were* no American symphony orchestras in the mid-late 19th c.except for the NY Phil and Theodore Thomas's touring outfit. That clearly means established standing orchestras, which is pretty obvious from the two examples given. You did not cite any standing orchestras that lasted any length of time to refute his main point. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] berlioz notation programme
Possibly because one enjoys the staggering diversity of cultures living in close proximity that you see in, e.g., New York City, that is hard to find in a more monolithic culture. I can't afford to be a world traveller, but almost every day I have the opportunity to meet people from all over the world who have come to New York to pursue their dreams, just like me. That's pretty frickin' cool. Plus, it makes the food better. Immigration is to restaurants what diversity is to the gene pool. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 27 May 2007, at 7:14 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I would enjoy seeing a lot of Americans stop trying to be whatever their ancestors were, and just be Americans ... else why be here? [Simplistic, I know] Dean ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
On May 27, 2007, at 2:40 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: Perhaps it may be a geeky pecadillo on my part, but tonal requires that the tonal center (or the tonal center of the moment, as it may be) be established by it's own dominant and leading tone (thank you IU theory department!). So modal (including the pentatonic modes with no 7th and the hexatonic with a flatted 7th) doesn't qualify. And of course (and fortunately) it is not necessary to agree with this (or even understand it) to enjoy the music. Depends on your definition of tonal, as I said before. I-IV-I establishes a key centre as effectively as a I-V-I and without a leading tone. We just have to certain which tonal we are talking about. It's like the difference between classical music and Classical music. At least we have the capital C to distinguish the period from the whole genre. Maybe we should start capitalising Tonal for when we are talking about common-practice era European concert music, and reserve the small-t tonal for anything with any key centre at all? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: John Cage's first national TV appearance (1960)
On May 27, 2007, at 5:48 PM, dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I perceive that there is a hang up on this thread, that we gotta have a leading tone present to qualify for tonality. Tonality can also be established by just plain harmonies or single chords. If you have a perfect fifth, or perfect fourth in a vertical aggregate, you have, according to Schenker, a tonal center present. Oh, there you go, bringing in a major theorist and trying to quell our own little it's tonal when I say it's tonal arguments! Sure, ruin my Sunday, why don't you! :-) Bwah-ha-ha! Very good! C. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Film music (was Cage, etc.)
In a message dated 5/27/2007 5:20:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: People who won't stand for certain sounds in the concert hall, enjoy experiencing them in movie theaters. Aha! A new thread, and an important one. With the exception of songs (either in musicals or as introjects/backgrounds) and themes (as in The Theme From...), film music doesn't play by the same aesthetic rules as concert music. Put as simply as possible, it's normally used as an aural midwife to the delivery of visual information. Since the visuals command such a huge proportion of the audience's attention, all sorts of strange things are possible, just as David says. That there are formulaic linkages between dramatic gestures on the screen and their aural support structures has always been true. But that doesn't mean that someone like Bernard Herrmann didn't extend the vocabulary of film music in very interesting ways. My favorite story in this regard: a student went to the UCLA film score library and asked to check out the score for Hitchcock's Psycho. The librarian replied that complete scores do not circulate outside the library. So the student said, OK then, just the string parts. David Lawrence ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
