[Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Curious. I sang a church choir for several years (back in the 80s) and I never saw anything but tenor-treble unless the tenor and bass part were combined on a staff. Of course if J. S. Bach could contribute to this list, he would probably lament the loss of the tenor clef, which is so suited to the tenor voice. I would guess treble-tenor has stuck with us because the notes on tenor treble are only one half-space removed from the same notes on tenor clef and hence obviate the need for lots of leger lines. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Since I am used to reading trombone parts with ledger lines, and since I studied 4 part harmony using two voices in each clef, I prefer to see parts for tenor voice written in bass clef too. It does make more sense to my eye, I don't know what the historical precedent for the practice of using treble clef is. Chuck On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir (2nd thought)
Is it because of ledger lines in bass clef running into the lyrics on the alto parts? Tenors live above middle C a lot of the time. Chuck On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I think it is useful and prefer it to the other options. It gives the tenors a useful sense of where notes lie in their range. If I notebash for tenors I play (lightly) the octave above as well as the actual pitch, because most amateurs and some professionals here the actual pitch as low. Steve P. On 14 Sep 2011, at 15:40, Patrick Sheehan wrote: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Patrick: I am not a choirmaster, but I am a composer and a singer who occasionally performs tenor parts. The reason that I can think that it makes sense relates more to classical choral tenor (ie: Bach, Mozart, etc) and to operatic tenor parts. Those parts tend to lie more above Middle C (and in the case of operatic tenor, up to High C or D). So to put the tenor parts for that type of music in the treble clef with middle C at the bottom of the staff (and needing only the occasional few ledger lines below the staff for G-C) rather than in bass clef with middle C at the top of the staff (and thus requiring copious amounts of ledger lines above the staff) creates an economy of space. But as a composer, sightreader and notator, it bugs the hell outta me to see this. When I'm writing, I always put the tenor part in Bass Clef and I may or may not switch it later. Adam On 14/09/2011 11:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir (2nd thought)
Yes. Also because solo music for tenor voice is frequently written in Treble 8vb instead of bass clef. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Sep 2011, at 10:53 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: Is it because of ledger lines in bass clef running into the lyrics on the alto parts? Tenors live above middle C a lot of the time. Chuck On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-316 land line: (971) 255-1167 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com www.chuckisraelsjazz.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
My 2 cents: I saw tenor parts in bass clef in two staff scores (SA together-TB together) only, while all 4 staff scores I could manage and sing got the treble(8) clef. I think that the main reason for using treble clef is an easier readability of the score, especially when tenors have to reach high notes (G,A) that would fly high from the bass clef score a bit too much Il 14/09/2011 16.40, Patrick Sheehan ha scritto: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I'm going to have to say as an accompanist for choirs for most of the past 30 years that the treble clef (with or without the 8) is more common. I'm assuming each voice is written in a different clef. For vocal parts where the Soprano/Alto is written on one clef and the Tenor/Bass on another, then the tenor part is in bass clef. For my experience at least, I'd find it strange to accompany in 4-part voicing if the tenor part were not in the treble clef. In the small volunteer choir I direct, the lone tenor is accustomed to treble clef, but has no problem reading bass. I think the problem lies in so many leger lines. If the tenors go too high, the amount of spacing between the alto and tenor clef becomes disproportionate to the spacing between the other clefs. That starts to look confusing and becomes a distraction. Maybe we should bring back the soprano clef for sopranos, alto for altos and tenor for tenors. That would drive everyone crazy. James Gilbert JamesGilbertMusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Copying System Margins
Thank you, it worked! Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.eu I think Modify/Copy Layout will do this. Chuck Sent from my iPhone On Sep 8, 2011, at 11:00 PM, Giovanni Andreani i...@giovanniandreani.eu wrote: I tried to look trough all the TGTools features but can't find the one you mentioned... Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.eu TGTools can copy the system margins On Sep 8, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: I'm in the need to copy several measures of music with many details added to the score (dynamics, expressions, and so on) from the original to a second finale file. I checked 'all' in the 'Edit Filter' as copy/ paste options. All works fine except that system margins don't copy from and to a new document and I would like to know if there's anyway I could do this, while I have a load of pages to copy between the to files and system margins change every time. Thanks Giovanni Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.euI ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale John Blane Blane Music Preparation 1649 Huntington Ln. Highland Park, IL 60035 847 579-9900 847 579-9903 fax www.BlaneMusic.com j...@blanemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 14 Sep 2011 at 9:40, Patrick Sheehan wrote: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. Your secondary premise is COMPLETELY FALSE. That is, printing tenor vocal parts in bass clef is a minority practice. The fact is that tradition was to print the tenor part in TENOR CLEF, to reduce leger lines. But as that clef fell out of favor, the treble8 clef was invented. It is a modern invention, but it's almost universal in modern published editions. Using either bass clef or treble clef would result in an unacceptable number of ledger lines, seems to me, and that's why something different is needed. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? I think that printing a tenor part in bass clef or treble clef is the practice that should be abolished -- it's much less readable than the alternatives (tenor clef or treble8). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Patrick: 1. You are absolutely right. 2. The battle was lost, decades ago, unfortunately, although the solution was never bass clef for separate tenor lines, it was tenor clef. Tenor clef fought a good fight but died in the early 20th century. Learn to deal with it, as with all arbitrary notational conventions, of which there are many. (Try reading the 2nd trombone part in most Shostakovitch symphonies symphonies - low tessitura, alto clef = leger lines below the staff.) No logic sometimes, just strange traditions, but the performer has to deal with it. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Patrick Sheehan patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com wrote: To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I'm not a choirmaster, but an opera and orchestra conductor. There's a simple and rational explanation for the tenors being assigned to treble clef (with or without the 8 attached at the bottom). The question: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. There are two answers: 1) it's used in printed music today because it's been done that way since the late 19th century, particularly in English choral music (where much of American choral tradition derives) and 2) it was never printed in bass clef most of the time in any period or choral tradition. The shorthand of combining tenor and bass on the same staff was simply a matter of convenience. Clefs were originally chosen to eliminate ledger lines and keep the music within the confines of the staff as much as possible. Historically there were three clefs: C clefs, G clefs and F clefs. By its placement on the staff, each identifies that note for which it is named. Originally, all three were movable. Today, only the C clefs are mobile. Middle C in the soprano clef is on the second staff line from the bottom; today it is only found in older choral editions. Alto clef, used for violas and some older trombone writing, places middle C on the middle line. Tenor clef, used in cello, trombone and bassoon literature, places it on the fourth line. Until roughly the latter 19th century, choral music was notated using three C clefs and one F clef: soprano, alto, tenor and bass clef. (Incidentally, the movable clefs are useful in learning to read transposing instrumental parts at sight. Use soprano clef for instruments in A, tenor clef for instruments in B flat, alto clef for instruments in D, bass clef for treble clef instruments in E or E flat, and baritone clef for F transpositions. You're on your own for Horn in G). The tenor voice is analogous to the soprano voice in its range, and their common written literature is called high voice and used treble clef. Tenor singers study voice formally and use the same Italian vocal studies (Concone, Vaccai, Bordogni, etc.). Opera scores from the late baroque onward inevitably notate tenor roles in treble clef. The treble clef, or G clef, was originally called the Violin clef, because it was extensively used for instrumental music. During the early baroque, it began to be used often for keyboard music also, and the tradition stuck. Because much of the soprano voice's material is found in the top staff of the accompaniment, it became common for the soprano part to use the treble clef instead of the soprano clef. Optimization (shrinking) of printed score pages meant that soprano and alto parts were often notated on the same staff; likewise, tenor and bass were combined in the bass clef. I'm not aware of any time or place that notated the tenor part in bass clef when using a separate staff. You're not going to change the tradition of notating tenor in the treble clef, and frankly I don't think it would be a good idea. High tenor parts would be a nightmare of ledger lines. My suggestion is to get comfortable with the notation by learning to read open score more easily. There are several good books teaching Score Reading at the Piano, the first of which that comes to mind is Morris Ferguson. They drill you in reading all the clefs, starting on two lines and leading up to a full score. When you can sightread four-part Bach chorales written in soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs, you feel close to God. Steve Larsen -Original Message- From: Patrick Sheehan [mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:40 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? Patrick J. M. Sheehan Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy P. S. Music mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I think part of the issue is that treble clef is used with the properties of the treble8. There's no distinction made between the two and the tenor voice is essentially treated as a transposing instrument (sounding an octave lower). That practice is used numerous times for solo tenor voices in art songs and even in opera scores. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:27 AM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 14 Sep 2011 at 9:40, Patrick Sheehan wrote: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. Your secondary premise is COMPLETELY FALSE. That is, printing tenor vocal parts in bass clef is a minority practice. The fact is that tradition was to print the tenor part in TENOR CLEF, to reduce leger lines. But as that clef fell out of favor, the treble8 clef was invented. It is a modern invention, but it's almost universal in modern published editions. Using either bass clef or treble clef would result in an unacceptable number of ledger lines, seems to me, and that's why something different is needed. And, does this bother anyone else, and do you agree that it should be abolished? I think that printing a tenor part in bass clef or treble clef is the practice that should be abolished -- it's much less readable than the alternatives (tenor clef or treble8). -- David W. Fenton http://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Horn in G in concert pitch: Put in Baritone clef, sounds an octave higher) (To play Horn in G on Horn in F: Put in Alto clef, play octave higher. Though for me, it's easier to just transpose up a step.) On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Steve Larsen st...@larsenbein.com wrote: I'm not a choirmaster, but an opera and orchestra conductor. There's a simple and rational explanation for the tenors being assigned to treble clef (with or without the 8 attached at the bottom). The question: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the time. There are two answers: 1) it's used in printed music today because it's been done that way since the late 19th century, particularly in English choral music (where much of American choral tradition derives) and 2) it was never printed in bass clef most of the time in any period or choral tradition. The shorthand of combining tenor and bass on the same staff was simply a matter of convenience. Clefs were originally chosen to eliminate ledger lines and keep the music within the confines of the staff as much as possible. Historically there were three clefs: C clefs, G clefs and F clefs. By its placement on the staff, each identifies that note for which it is named. Originally, all three were movable. Today, only the C clefs are mobile. Middle C in the soprano clef is on the second staff line from the bottom; today it is only found in older choral editions. Alto clef, used for violas and some older trombone writing, places middle C on the middle line. Tenor clef, used in cello, trombone and bassoon literature, places it on the fourth line. Until roughly the latter 19th century, choral music was notated using three C clefs and one F clef: soprano, alto, tenor and bass clef. (Incidentally, the movable clefs are useful in learning to read transposing instrumental parts at sight. Use soprano clef for instruments in A, tenor clef for instruments in B flat, alto clef for instruments in D, bass clef for treble clef instruments in E or E flat, and baritone clef for F transpositions. You're on your own for Horn in G). The tenor voice is analogous to the soprano voice in its range, and their common written literature is called high voice and used treble clef. Tenor singers study voice formally and use the same Italian vocal studies (Concone, Vaccai, Bordogni, etc.). Opera scores from the late baroque onward inevitably notate tenor roles in treble clef. The treble clef, or G clef, was originally called the Violin clef, because it was extensively used for instrumental music. During the early baroque, it began to be used often for keyboard music also, and the tradition stuck. Because much of the soprano voice's material is found in the top staff of the accompaniment, it became common for the soprano part to use the treble clef instead of the soprano clef. Optimization (shrinking) of printed score pages meant that soprano and alto parts were often notated on the same staff; likewise, tenor and bass were combined in the bass clef. I'm not aware of any time or place that notated the tenor part in bass clef when using a separate staff. You're not going to change the tradition of notating tenor in the treble clef, and frankly I don't think it would be a good idea. High tenor parts would be a nightmare of ledger lines. My suggestion is to get comfortable with the notation by learning to read open score more easily. There are several good books teaching Score Reading at the Piano, the first of which that comes to mind is Morris Ferguson. They drill you in reading all the clefs, starting on two lines and leading up to a full score. When you can sightread four-part Bach chorales written in soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs, you feel close to God. Steve Larsen -Original Message- From: Patrick Sheehan [mailto:patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:40 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir To All Choirmasters out there: Part of my work for the past 10+ years has been accompanying for high school choirs, where at times we will perform a mix classic and new serious literature as well as some of the popular alternative choices that are in the catalogs today. What bothers me in reading, is that now 75% of the time in the printed music of today, the tenor staff (part) is in treble clef (with or without the 8 below the clef). I personally think that that clef is absolutely unpractical, and should never be used. When I play part summaries in rehearsal (no accompaniment, just al the parts) in rehearsal, it bugs the absolute hell out of me that the tenor part is in treble 8 clef, because I expect to see two staves in treble (soprano, alto) and two in bass (tenor and bass). My question is: WHY is this treble 8 clef used in printed music today when it used to be printed in bass clef most of the
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Steve Larsen wrote: I'm not aware of any time or place that notated the tenor part in bass clef when using a separate staff. Agreed. I've seen a ton of opera and choral scores from 17th century to 20th, and I've never seen this. Choral tenors are combined with the basses in a bass clef when SATB is put into two staves hymnbook-style. Otherwise tenors are on the octave-below treble clef, either marked or unmarked. Unless you go back even earlier, in which case all chorus parts are in movable C clefs. But never tenor in a bass clef. (There is, incidentally, some small tradition of the reverse -- ie, writing baritone parts in the 8vb treble clef -- particularly in English music in the late 19th and early 20th century. You'll see this in Vaughn Williams' scores, for example.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
On 14 Sep 2011 at 12:18, Ryan wrote: I think part of the issue is that treble clef is used with the properties of the treble8. There's no distinction made between the two and the tenor voice is essentially treated as a transposing instrument (sounding an octave lower). That practice is used numerous times for solo tenor voices in art songs and even in opera scores. If treble clef is used with the music notated 8ba, then that's bad and I would agree it's WRONG. But treble clef 8 is perfectly acceptable and I would say is the one practice that is always going to be correct. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
Being a tenor, and singing in a wide variety groups, etc., over the years, this is what I've found with modern printing / editing practices. When a four part piece is written on four separate staves (S-A-T-B), the treble 8 clef is used for the tenor. If the piece is written on two staves (SA-TB), or sometimes even three (S-A-TB), the tenor shares the bass clef with the basses and baritones. I've have seen a few variations from this, but they are too rare to even be considered. As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. Scott Holland Tenor - Westminster Choir College '94/'98 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
I would agree. As a tenor, the treble cleff has less ledger lines, and is generally easier to sight read, although I don't really think that it makes a huge difference for me: I tend to sight sing by intervals, not by absolute pitch. Where the note falls in your throat sometimes throws me off, but generally it doesn't matter. Even the traditional C clef doesn't really bother me, once I get my bearings. I also do a fair amount of notating for choirs, and find I get less complaints when using the 8vb treble clef. Because of publishing house requirements, I notice that they may want you to use as few staves as possible, to save paper. Personally, as a tenor I find this maddening, because I have to keep switching clefs. I'd rather just stick to one clef, since a lot of what I do is performing with very few rehearsals. From a composition point of view, I prefer to notate depending on the music. Music that is polyphonic - I prefer to notate all four parts (with tenor on the 8vb treble), but otherwise prefer two clefs because it's easier to proof the harmonies. But again, it generally doesn't matter that much to me. I think as a composer, you need to consider how your piece will be performed, and make it easier for the performer to understand, whether or not they are reading for sight-singing or not. The less time spent explaining everything, the better for the director. And certainly, reading multiple clefs should not be a problem. Our director (of an amateur choir) frequently has us reading parts meant for other singers (e.g., alto reading the bass and singing it an octave higher), and it has been beneficial, in my opinion. Just my 2 cents. On 9/14/2011 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: Being a tenor, and singing in a wide variety groups, etc., over the years, this is what I've found with modern printing / editing practices. When a four part piece is written on four separate staves (S-A-T-B), the treble 8 clef is used for the tenor. If the piece is written on two staves (SA-TB), or sometimes even three (S-A-TB), the tenor shares the bass clef with the basses and baritones. I've have seen a few variations from this, but they are too rare to even be considered. As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. Scott Holland Tenor - Westminster Choir College '94/'98 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir
The choice has been made - right or wrong, bad or good, it's (8ba) treble clef for tenors when on a separate stave, bass clef when sharing the staff with basses, even in the same work. Tenors learn to bounce back and forth. pianists adjust also. I do recall a small publishing company (name forgotten) in the 1980's that put out some SATB church anthems printed with Treb,Treb,Bs,Bs clefs, and it WAS particularly easy to play those on piano (these particular anthems had conservative ranges, so the leger lines were not excessive) but those publications would be considered an aberration in any case. I think the main reason I was sympathizing with the original poster is that I remember reading some late letters of Arnold Schoenberg written during the time he was composing his final (and unfinished) opera Moses und Aron. He complained about the (new) 8ba treble clef, said that he found it distracting to try to write in it and said he would have to write the tenor part initially in the traditional tenor clef and change it later. (I am paraphrasing after reading this in 1975, but I think I have it for the most part). Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Bruce Kau b...@computer.org wrote: I would agree. As a tenor, the treble cleff has less ledger lines, and is generally easier to sight read, although I don't really think that it makes a huge difference for me: I tend to sight sing by intervals, not by absolute pitch. Where the note falls in your throat sometimes throws me off, but generally it doesn't matter. Even the traditional C clef doesn't really bother me, once I get my bearings. I also do a fair amount of notating for choirs, and find I get less complaints when using the 8vb treble clef. Because of publishing house requirements, I notice that they may want you to use as few staves as possible, to save paper. Personally, as a tenor I find this maddening, because I have to keep switching clefs. I'd rather just stick to one clef, since a lot of what I do is performing with very few rehearsals. From a composition point of view, I prefer to notate depending on the music. Music that is polyphonic - I prefer to notate all four parts (with tenor on the 8vb treble), but otherwise prefer two clefs because it's easier to proof the harmonies. But again, it generally doesn't matter that much to me. I think as a composer, you need to consider how your piece will be performed, and make it easier for the performer to understand, whether or not they are reading for sight-singing or not. The less time spent explaining everything, the better for the director. And certainly, reading multiple clefs should not be a problem. Our director (of an amateur choir) frequently has us reading parts meant for other singers (e.g., alto reading the bass and singing it an octave higher), and it has been beneficial, in my opinion. Just my 2 cents. On 9/14/2011 4:13 PM, Scott wrote: Being a tenor, and singing in a wide variety groups, etc., over the years, this is what I've found with modern printing / editing practices. When a four part piece is written on four separate staves (S-A-T-B), the treble 8 clef is used for the tenor. If the piece is written on two staves (SA-TB), or sometimes even three (S-A-TB), the tenor shares the bass clef with the basses and baritones. I've have seen a few variations from this, but they are too rare to even be considered. As for my personal tastes, having performed pieces ranging from the medieval to the modern, my first choice would of course be the tenor clef. But, when forced to make a choice between the bass clef and the treble 8 clef, I very much prefer reading the treble clef. I think most tenors would agree with me. Scott Holland Tenor - Westminster Choir College '94/'98 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
