Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[GERALD BERG]

 blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px 
#715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white 
!important; } Nice touch that 4/.q. bracketing. I'm still scratching my head 
over playing 5 against 4 in triplets at speed! Precision meet Imprecision.
GJB

On Tuesday, December 20, 2016, 10:40 AM, Robert Patterson 
 wrote:

For anyone who is interested in the notation, here are a couple examples.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e67walobznq1ygl/Crumb-DayOfComet.tiff?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nz3afpyiyx1y4m/Crumb-ZeitgeistEx2.tiff?dl=0

He also uses it extensively in the "Musica Apocalypitca" movement of Star
Child. It really requires no explanation, which is one of the attractive
features of it.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz <
bath...@maltedmedia.com> wrote:

> On Tue, December 20, 2016 10:33 am, SN jef chippewa wrote:
> >
> >>I¹m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.
> >
> > like a whole rest? :P
>
> A whole note with a short right-pointing arrow, since that's already used
> for
> continuation?
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Robert Patterson]

As to your points.

>new notation

Not really a con, since that's the whole point.

>is not intuitive and needs to be explained,

Maybe, but only once at most.

> does not show conductor subdivisions

That's easy enough to show in parts that aren't sustaining. If all the
parts are sustaining, it's not an issue. I don't see a problem here. On the
contrary, I think showing the subdivision in only the parts that are moving
is clearer for the conductor.

>-unique context, can't be extended

It certainly can be extended, but it probably would be wise to do so before
the base 5/4 case (hypothetically) were fully to be accepted as standard
practice. New notation conventions don't have to happen (nor have they
happened) all at once. I'd be curious to know how much time elapsed between
the introduction of one augmentation dot vs. multiple. (My notation history
training has receded too far into the past!)

As I've said all along, ymmv. No one's going to force you to use it. I'd be
open to other ideas for filling a 5/4 bar with a single note value, but so
far I haven't seen one I prefer to this one.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 1:52 PM, SN jef chippewa <
shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:

>
> >No one ever explained it to me, and I got it right away. ymmv
>
> sure, but you intuited it, it wasn't a logical extension of the
> notation.  it isn't something one can "figure out", but can deduce,
> that is what i meant.  and i don't think either of us would accept
> the idea that the norms of (this sort of) notation should be anything
> but logical.
>
>
> >Crumb only uses it to fill whole "bars" (though sometimes without
> >barlines, as you see).
> >
> >>in your ex1 why is the end of the 1st measure in the upper piano not
> >a dotted 8th?
> >
> >While not relevant to the question at hand, I would guess it is because he
> >want to show a 3+2 feel.
>
> ah, but i think it is, because pno II is the only player that could
> give a 3+2 feel, and that would more effectively be shown by
> connecting the 8th beam in beats 4-5.  he doesn'tnotate it that way,
> and i really don't believe (based of course only on my reading of
> this small excerpt and my memory of the pieces i have heard of his)
> that he intends that.  so the idea of using a single (compound)
> symbol for duration is not used consistently.  he doesn't use a
> dotted 8th where one is clearly warranted (or at least certainly
> justified) and then invents a new notation in a place where it is
> perhaps not needed/warranted.
>
>
> >  >but a stemless quarter head with lv ties would do just as well.
> >
> >But then it might require rests, and the whole point of this
> >notation is to show the duration.
>
> yeah, true in this case.
>
>
> >If you carried this notation to its pedantic extreme, I suppose you
> >could fill a 9/4 bar with a double whole dotted on the right and
> >double-dotted on the left. But Crumb does not do that. He fills 9/4
> >bars conventionally with dotted whole tied to dotted half. It seems
> >like this notation is reserved for filling 5-beat bars.
>
> exactly my point.  if you are going to invent new notations it has to
> be done consistently.  inventing a new notation that can only be used
> in one situation is common in new music, but crumb's notation is
> *very* traditional, so i would still argue that tied notes is the way
> to go.
>
> your proposal of course works:
> 1) right dots augment by a value that is 1/2 the value of the main
> note; each subsequent dot augments by a further 1/2 the previous dot
> value
> 2) left dots reduce by a value that is 1/4 the value of the main
> note; each subsequent dot reduces by a further 1/2 the previous dot
> value
>
> and i could write "this is not a typo" over something i notate but
> the fact of me doing it doesn't make it the unquestionably cleverest
> solution :-)
>
> the discrepancy of the first dot beside the notehead representing 1/2
> vs 1/4 is not explained anywhere.  why is the left dot 1/4?  just
> because (george decided) it is.  again, yeah we figured it out, but
> it isn't logical or inherently intuitive.
>
> that said... as i say early on in probably all the seminars on
> notation i have given: some aspects of notation make it inherently
> contradictory but we need to reduce as much as possible within a
> given context the redundancies and inconsistencies to help the
> musician gain quicker and more informative access to the music.  or
> something to that effect.
>
> i am still completely unconvinced about this notation for 5/4, at
> least in this context.  i don't think so much more is gained by
> inventing this new notation that makes a strong enough case for it to
> replace tied values.
>
> PROS
> - one duration, one notehead (indeed a strong argument)
> - largely based on existing notation, with an alteration
>
> CONS
> - new notation
> - is not intuitive and needs to be explained, or the musician has to
> deduce it
> - does not show conductor subdivisions (a conductor will beat in 3+2
> 

Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[SN jef chippewa]

>No one ever explained it to me, and I got it right away. ymmv

sure, but you intuited it, it wasn't a logical extension of the 
notation.  it isn't something one can "figure out", but can deduce, 
that is what i meant.  and i don't think either of us would accept 
the idea that the norms of (this sort of) notation should be anything 
but logical.


>Crumb only uses it to fill whole "bars" (though sometimes without 
>barlines, as you see).
>
>>in your ex1 why is the end of the 1st measure in the upper piano not
>a dotted 8th?
>
>While not relevant to the question at hand, I would guess it is because he
>want to show a 3+2 feel.

ah, but i think it is, because pno II is the only player that could 
give a 3+2 feel, and that would more effectively be shown by 
connecting the 8th beam in beats 4-5.  he doesn'tnotate it that way, 
and i really don't believe (based of course only on my reading of 
this small excerpt and my memory of the pieces i have heard of his) 
that he intends that.  so the idea of using a single (compound) 
symbol for duration is not used consistently.  he doesn't use a 
dotted 8th where one is clearly warranted (or at least certainly 
justified) and then invents a new notation in a place where it is 
perhaps not needed/warranted.


>  >but a stemless quarter head with lv ties would do just as well.
>
>But then it might require rests, and the whole point of this 
>notation is to show the duration.

yeah, true in this case.


>If you carried this notation to its pedantic extreme, I suppose you 
>could fill a 9/4 bar with a double whole dotted on the right and 
>double-dotted on the left. But Crumb does not do that. He fills 9/4 
>bars conventionally with dotted whole tied to dotted half. It seems 
>like this notation is reserved for filling 5-beat bars.

exactly my point.  if you are going to invent new notations it has to 
be done consistently.  inventing a new notation that can only be used 
in one situation is common in new music, but crumb's notation is 
*very* traditional, so i would still argue that tied notes is the way 
to go.

your proposal of course works:
1) right dots augment by a value that is 1/2 the value of the main 
note; each subsequent dot augments by a further 1/2 the previous dot 
value
2) left dots reduce by a value that is 1/4 the value of the main 
note; each subsequent dot reduces by a further 1/2 the previous dot 
value

and i could write "this is not a typo" over something i notate but 
the fact of me doing it doesn't make it the unquestionably cleverest 
solution :-)

the discrepancy of the first dot beside the notehead representing 1/2 
vs 1/4 is not explained anywhere.  why is the left dot 1/4?  just 
because (george decided) it is.  again, yeah we figured it out, but 
it isn't logical or inherently intuitive.

that said... as i say early on in probably all the seminars on 
notation i have given: some aspects of notation make it inherently 
contradictory but we need to reduce as much as possible within a 
given context the redundancies and inconsistencies to help the 
musician gain quicker and more informative access to the music.  or 
something to that effect.

i am still completely unconvinced about this notation for 5/4, at 
least in this context.  i don't think so much more is gained by 
inventing this new notation that makes a strong enough case for it to 
replace tied values.

PROS
- one duration, one notehead (indeed a strong argument)
- largely based on existing notation, with an alteration

CONS
- new notation
- is not intuitive and needs to be explained, or the musician has to deduce it
- does not show conductor subdivisions (a conductor will beat in 3+2 
or 2+3 and we don't see it here)
- is used in a unique context
- cannot be extended to similar "problems" (9/4) without involving 
unfortunate convolutions (1 vs. 2 dots)
- creates more spacing issues on the left side (horizontal spacing is 
a serious issue in new music notation; you found a solution, but 
there is no need for a "solution" with tied notes)

discussion on deck: what is wrong with his (piano) harmonic notation... ;-)

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Robert Patterson]

>i think it *does* require explanation

No one ever explained it to me, and I got it right away. ymmv

Crumb only uses it to fill whole "bars" (though sometimes without barlines,
as you see).

>in your ex1 why is the end of the 1st measure in the upper piano not
a dotted 8th?

While not relevant to the question at hand, I would guess it is because he
want to show a 3+2 feel.

>but a stemless quarter head with lv ties would do
just as well.

But then it might require rests, and the whole point of this notation is to
show the duration.

If you carried this notation to its pedantic extreme, I suppose you could
fill a 9/4 bar with a double whole dotted on the right and double-dotted on
the left. But Crumb does not do that. He fills 9/4 bars conventionally with
dotted whole tied to dotted half. It seems like this notation is reserved
for filling 5-beat bars.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 10:18 AM, SN jef chippewa <
shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:

>
> i think it *does* require explanation, it is certainly not
> self-evident.  but you can get away with not explaining it in a
> legend because there is a surrounding context within which the
> musician can deduce its sense.  but imagine the symbol in a
> non-metered and solistic situation, e.g., various durational values
> following one another in a chain but no barlines or time sigs -- you
> would have no idea what is meant unless you knew beforehand.
>
> and the fact that you have to count backwards AND forwards makes it a
> bad choice for me:
> 4+2-1=5 or
> (4 x 1-1/2) - (4 x 1/4)
>
> i would definitely boycott this notation.
>
> in ex2 there is interest in having a single symbol for the duration
> because of the l.v. but a stemless quarter head with lv ties would do
> just as well.  and that is indeed something i have seen many times.
> better than stemmed quarter with lv ties followed by a whole rest in
> square brackets, for example.
>
> in your ex1 why is the end of the 1st measure in the upper piano not
> a dotted 8th?
>
> in your ex2 i would rather see the 5/4 value notated as half tied to
> dotted half (in both cases), reflecting what is happening in the
> other piano each time (held note 2/4 then pedalling over 3/4)
>
>
> >For anyone who is interested in the notation, here are a couple examples.
> >
> >https://www.dropbox.com/s/e67walobznq1ygl/Crumb-DayOfComet.tiff?dl=0
> >https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nz3afpyiyx1y4m/Crumb-ZeitgeistEx2.tiff?dl=0
> >
> >He also uses it extensively in the "Musica Apocalypitca" movement of
> >Star Child. It really requires no explanation, which is one of the
> >attractive features of it.
>
> --
>
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
>
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
>
> ___
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[SN jef chippewa]

i think it *does* require explanation, it is certainly not 
self-evident.  but you can get away with not explaining it in a 
legend because there is a surrounding context within which the 
musician can deduce its sense.  but imagine the symbol in a 
non-metered and solistic situation, e.g., various durational values 
following one another in a chain but no barlines or time sigs -- you 
would have no idea what is meant unless you knew beforehand.

and the fact that you have to count backwards AND forwards makes it a 
bad choice for me:
4+2-1=5 or
(4 x 1-1/2) - (4 x 1/4)

i would definitely boycott this notation.

in ex2 there is interest in having a single symbol for the duration 
because of the l.v. but a stemless quarter head with lv ties would do 
just as well.  and that is indeed something i have seen many times. 
better than stemmed quarter with lv ties followed by a whole rest in 
square brackets, for example.

in your ex1 why is the end of the 1st measure in the upper piano not 
a dotted 8th?

in your ex2 i would rather see the 5/4 value notated as half tied to 
dotted half (in both cases), reflecting what is happening in the 
other piano each time (held note 2/4 then pedalling over 3/4)


>For anyone who is interested in the notation, here are a couple examples.
>
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/e67walobznq1ygl/Crumb-DayOfComet.tiff?dl=0
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nz3afpyiyx1y4m/Crumb-ZeitgeistEx2.tiff?dl=0
>
>He also uses it extensively in the "Musica Apocalypitca" movement of 
>Star Child. It really requires no explanation, which is one of the 
>attractive features of it.

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Steve Parker]

> On 20 Dec 2016, at 15:35, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz  
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, December 20, 2016 10:33 am, SN jef chippewa wrote:
>> 
>>> I¹m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.
>> 
>> like a whole rest? :P
> 
> A whole note with a short right-pointing arrow, since that's already used for
> continuation?

Would work if it could become standard.

I’ll start..!

Steve P.
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Steve Parker]

> On 20 Dec 2016, at 15:33, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I¹m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.
> 
> like a whole rest? :P

Ho hum.. that’d do for half the cases. :-)

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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Robert Patterson]

For anyone who is interested in the notation, here are a couple examples.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e67walobznq1ygl/Crumb-DayOfComet.tiff?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nz3afpyiyx1y4m/Crumb-ZeitgeistEx2.tiff?dl=0

He also uses it extensively in the "Musica Apocalypitca" movement of Star
Child. It really requires no explanation, which is one of the attractive
features of it.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz <
bath...@maltedmedia.com> wrote:

> On Tue, December 20, 2016 10:33 am, SN jef chippewa wrote:
> >
> >>I¹m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.
> >
> > like a whole rest? :P
>
> A whole note with a short right-pointing arrow, since that's already used
> for
> continuation?
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

On Tue, December 20, 2016 10:33 am, SN jef chippewa wrote:
>
>>I¹m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.
>
> like a whole rest? :P

A whole note with a short right-pointing arrow, since that's already used for
continuation?


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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[SN jef chippewa]

>I¹m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.

like a whole rest? :P

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Steve Parker]

> The general assumption, I believe, is that Crumb invented it. One
> interesting aspect of it is that it shows up in his scores without
> explanation, leaving the musicians to figure it out.

Along with a lot of other things.. I’ve seen theses explaining some of them!
I’ve never seen it anywhere else.
I’m attracted by the idea of a symbol that would fill *any* bar.

Steve P.


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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Raymond Horton]

The general assumption, I believe, is that Crumb invented it. One
interesting aspect of it is that it shows up in his scores without
explanation, leaving the musicians to figure it out.

Raymond Horton
Composer, Arranger
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016


On Dec 20, 2016 10:10 AM, "SN jef chippewa" 
wrote:

>
> ah, ok problem solved.  but that brings up another question, of
> graphic confusion accis-dots.  plus the fact that the information for
> one thing (duration) is now spread in several places and
> simultaneously requires different types of on-the-fly mental calcs
> (adding and dividing).
>
> i'm not sure who invented it but for sure it is plausible crumb did.
> i have never come across it (although it has been years since i had a
> look at crumb scores).
>
> >Alignment is not an issue. The noteheads continue to align exactly
> >as they do now. You just have to make more room for accidentals on
> >the left.
> >
> >So you think Crumb invented it?
>
> --
>
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
>
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> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[SN jef chippewa]

ah, ok problem solved.  but that brings up another question, of 
graphic confusion accis-dots.  plus the fact that the information for 
one thing (duration) is now spread in several places and 
simultaneously requires different types of on-the-fly mental calcs 
(adding and dividing).

i'm not sure who invented it but for sure it is plausible crumb did. 
i have never come across it (although it has been years since i had a 
look at crumb scores).

>Alignment is not an issue. The noteheads continue to align exactly 
>as they do now. You just have to make more room for accidentals on 
>the left.
>
>So you think Crumb invented it?

-- 

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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Robert Patterson]

Alignment is not an issue. The noteheads continue to align exactly as they
do now. You just have to make more room for accidentals on the left.

So you think Crumb invented it?

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 8:46 AM, SN jef chippewa <
shirl...@newmusicnotation.com> wrote:

>
> i would never use this notation and would strongly discourage anyone
> who asked me from using it :-)
>
> crumb "invented" a lot of things.  so did a lot of other composers.
> some ideas are good.  some ain't.
>
> since we write out the full note values in other measures, there is
> no reason to do anything different in a 5/4 bar (half tied to dotted
> half, or inverse).  one of the things i do early on in any
> ensemble/orch score i get is to standardize all 5/4 and 7/4 measures
> -- notes AND rests -- so that every musician has the same
> subdivisions showing (the ones that the conductor will use) in their
> part.
>
> of course there is the discrepancy with 5/4, 9/4 and 11/4 etc. that
> they can't be represented with single note (with/out dots) values
> like the other 90% of time sigs, but this in fact helps them stand
> out in a positive way.  standing out in a negative way for me would
> be the solution you propose.  musicians have to learn a new
> non-standard notation on the metric level, where there are virtually
> no exceptions that may have to be learned on a score-to-score (or
> composer-to-composer) basis (in contrast to noteheads and
> articulations).
>
> plus graphically your twin-dotted notehead no longer sits in the
> proper rhythmic position and is unaligned with other non-full-measure
> vales on the downbeat.
>
>
> >One of the notation innovations that George Crumb uses is a
> >left-augmentation-dot to create a single note value that fills a 5/4 bar.
> >That is, a whole note with an augmentation dot on both the left and the
> >right. I suppose the logic is that the one on the right adds a half and
> the
> >one on the left takes a way a quarter (mirroring a second dot on the right
> >that would add a quarter).
> >
> >This notation is very attractive to me. Though non-standard it is simple
> to
> >comprehend and quite obvious in the limited context in which Crumb deploys
> >it. (Solely to fill 5/4 bars.)
> >
> >Making this notation in Finale is straightforward, using an invisible
> >tuplet on a double-dotted note, then adjusting the dot positions. My
> >question is does anyone know if Crumb invented this notation? And also
> does
> >anyone else use it?
>
> --
>
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
>
> shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
>
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Re: [Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[SN jef chippewa]

i would never use this notation and would strongly discourage anyone 
who asked me from using it :-)

crumb "invented" a lot of things.  so did a lot of other composers. 
some ideas are good.  some ain't.

since we write out the full note values in other measures, there is 
no reason to do anything different in a 5/4 bar (half tied to dotted 
half, or inverse).  one of the things i do early on in any 
ensemble/orch score i get is to standardize all 5/4 and 7/4 measures 
-- notes AND rests -- so that every musician has the same 
subdivisions showing (the ones that the conductor will use) in their 
part.

of course there is the discrepancy with 5/4, 9/4 and 11/4 etc. that 
they can't be represented with single note (with/out dots) values 
like the other 90% of time sigs, but this in fact helps them stand 
out in a positive way.  standing out in a negative way for me would 
be the solution you propose.  musicians have to learn a new 
non-standard notation on the metric level, where there are virtually 
no exceptions that may have to be learned on a score-to-score (or 
composer-to-composer) basis (in contrast to noteheads and 
articulations).

plus graphically your twin-dotted notehead no longer sits in the 
proper rhythmic position and is unaligned with other non-full-measure 
vales on the downbeat.


>One of the notation innovations that George Crumb uses is a
>left-augmentation-dot to create a single note value that fills a 5/4 bar.
>That is, a whole note with an augmentation dot on both the left and the
>right. I suppose the logic is that the one on the right adds a half and the
>one on the left takes a way a quarter (mirroring a second dot on the right
>that would add a quarter).
>
>This notation is very attractive to me. Though non-standard it is simple to
>comprehend and quite obvious in the limited context in which Crumb deploys
>it. (Solely to fill 5/4 bars.)
>
>Making this notation in Finale is straightforward, using an invisible
>tuplet on a double-dotted note, then adjusting the dot positions. My
>question is does anyone know if Crumb invented this notation? And also does
>anyone else use it?

-- 

neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html

shirling & neueweise | http://newmusicnotation.com
new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
[FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise

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[Finale] Filling a 5/4 bar with one note

[Robert Patterson]

One of the notation innovations that George Crumb uses is a
left-augmentation-dot to create a single note value that fills a 5/4 bar.
That is, a whole note with an augmentation dot on both the left and the
right. I suppose the logic is that the one on the right adds a half and the
one on the left takes a way a quarter (mirroring a second dot on the right
that would add a quarter).

This notation is very attractive to me. Though non-standard it is simple to
comprehend and quite obvious in the limited context in which Crumb deploys
it. (Solely to fill 5/4 bars.)

Making this notation in Finale is straightforward, using an invisible
tuplet on a double-dotted note, then adjusting the dot positions. My
question is does anyone know if Crumb invented this notation? And also does
anyone else use it?
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