[Finale] Time signature
Hi all, Is it possible to have automatically both 2 time-signatures, (into parenthesis or not) at the beginning of a measure : - (9/8) 3/4 - 7/8 (4+3/8) - (3+4/8) 7/8 - 4/4 (8/8)? (Sorry for my poor english.) Pierre ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature
Pierre: First, I should note that your English is a whole lot better than my French. Is it possible to have automatically both 2 time-signatures, (into parenthesis or not) at the beginning of a measure : - (9/8) 3/4 - 7/8 (4+3/8) - (3+4/8) 7/8 - 4/4 (8/8)? Given that you seem (from previous posts) to be using Finale 2010, I'd say that it's probably possible to have what you want, but it is not likely to be automatic. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
I tried the file and could change measures no problem. On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Richard Yates rich...@yatesguitar.com wrote: I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
Thanks. Did you use 2007? I tried the file and could change measures no problem. On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Richard Yates rich...@yatesguitar.com wrote: I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
Richard Yates wrote: I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates This might be a strange solution, but when you turn on Independent Time Signatures, you can change the time signature. As soon as you turn independent time signatures off, they return to 3/8 though. I have no idea what's going on. Barbara ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
Nolater version of finale --- send out and aboot on my iPhone --- On Oct 30, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Richard Yates rich...@yatesguitar.com wrote: Thanks. Did you use 2007? I tried the file and could change measures no problem. On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Richard Yates rich...@yatesguitar.com wrote: I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
Eric Dannewitz wrote: Nolater version of finale My test was done with FinWin08. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
Richard Yates wrote: I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates This might be a strange solution, but when you turn on Independent Time Signatures, you can change the time signature. As soon as you turn independent time signatures off, they return to 3/8 though. I have no idea what's going on. Barbara Barbara, You are a genius and the winner of whatever prize you wish! I don't know exactly why that works, but it does. The original file had three staves, the first one in gamba tablature, which is now deleted. It seems that, somehow, the ghost of that deleted (master?) staff (which you cannot change) is still hooked to the remaining staff. Checking Independent Time Signature unhooks it. A similar thing happens with key signature. My file has Independent Key Signature checked. Unchecking that reverts the key of the original staff even though that has long been deleted. (Now I will wait to see how long it takes MakeMusic Tech to solve it!) Richard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature - Stumped - FinWin2007
I had no problems changing time sig in 2008 or 2009. I don't have 2007 so can't try that, sorry. JR On 10/30/09 11:38 AM, Richard Yates rich...@yatesguitar.com wrote: I have a file in which I cannot change the time signatures of any measures. The Time Signature Dialog Box seems to work normally but the measures do not change when I exit the box. Nothing in the box seems to have any effect (different time display, rebar, etc). The file was concatenated from several other files that all seem to work normally, but even fragments of it show the same problem. Any ideas what is going wrong? A file is at: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/MGB-Selected-timebug.MUS Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time signature no lower character?
Hi all, I forget if this is easy and I've forgotten. How to remove the lower character (demoninator) from all time signatures in a score? They change every measure and I only want the upper value. There doesn't seem to be anything native nor in the third-party plugins. I the old days I used expressions, but this has a lot of changes and that means a lot of respacing and adjusting. Oh. And the client later uses the Finale files and only wants the native fonts. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature no lower character?
I forget if this is easy and I've forgotten. negative value of 5 bajillion ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature no lower character?
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Hi all, I forget if this is easy and I've forgotten. How to remove the lower character (demoninator) from all time signatures in a score? They change every measure and I only want the upper value. Easy indeed. Options - Document Options - Time signature Lower the top figure by 24 evpu and lower figure by a LARGE amount. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature Issue
Hmm. This is reminiscent of an issue I've encountered many times when adding a Measure Expression. I'll click on the measure, go thru the steps to create the expression, and when I return to the score, no expression. It's actually been attached to another measure on the page, and is showing well off the page. I have to go to a 50% page reduction to even see its handle!! I really wish MM would get their act together. Finale is as buggy as it's ever been, and personally I don't see any hope of any change. Which is why I won't upgrade past 2007 until further notice. J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Sep 20, 2007, at 8:32 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: I've seen this bug in 2007. Another way it shows is when you double click a measure in the Measure Tool to add a double bar, and it adds it in two places. THere are other manifestations, but I can't think of another right now. To the best of my knowledge, it is not present in 2008 (one of the few longstanding bugs that isn't!), but I'm off 2008 now, and so won't be seeing it there anyway. Christopher On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:23 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: Sorry it's taken me so long to respond on this. But today I realized, quite by accident, that every time I attempted to change the time signature on the recalcitrant measure, it was actually changing the 4th measure way back at the beginning, even tho I was selecting the 56th measure. Hmm. I set Finale to display actual rather than defined measure numbers, and eureka!!, back in business. This piece has many, many measure number regions out of necessity. Another bug perhaps?? J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Sep 17, 2007, at 3:48 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:17 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: I'm working in a Fin2K7 Mac file that I've been working with for several months. It was created in 2K7. I've had this problem before and can't remember how I've gotten around it: working in the score, I have a measure that steadfastly refuses to allow me to change the time signature. It's 3/2 now and every time I change it, it STAYS 3/2, no change. Anyone come across this and come up with a solution/workaround? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature Issue
I've noticed this particularly when dealing with staves that have been reduced with the Percent Tool (whatever the real name is.) Christopher On 21-Sep-07, at 12:39 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: Hmm. This is reminiscent of an issue I've encountered many times when adding a Measure Expression. I'll click on the measure, go thru the steps to create the expression, and when I return to the score, no expression. It's actually been attached to another measure on the page, and is showing well off the page. I have to go to a 50% page reduction to even see its handle!! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature Issue
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond on this. But today I realized, quite by accident, that every time I attempted to change the time signature on the recalcitrant measure, it was actually changing the 4th measure way back at the beginning, even tho I was selecting the 56th measure. Hmm. I set Finale to display actual rather than defined measure numbers, and eureka!!, back in business. This piece has many, many measure number regions out of necessity. Another bug perhaps?? J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Sep 17, 2007, at 3:48 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:17 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: I'm working in a Fin2K7 Mac file that I've been working with for several months. It was created in 2K7. I've had this problem before and can't remember how I've gotten around it: working in the score, I have a measure that steadfastly refuses to allow me to change the time signature. It's 3/2 now and every time I change it, it STAYS 3/2, no change. Anyone come across this and come up with a solution/workaround? Yes, I have seen this. It appears to be garden-variety file corruption, of which we are seeing a lot more since 2007. Sometimes I can change the three measures surrounding the problem measure, then change the one before back again. Sometimes the right- click doesn't work and I have to go to the menu; other times the menu doesn't work and the right-click is the only thing that works. File Maintenance is supposed to diagnose these problems, but on my system it never works, nor does Check Fonts. If the worst happens, I can copy the contents to a fresh document and usually the problem does not copy along with the contents. I always miss some things, though, and have to go back and put in some things like double bars. Staff Styles seem to copy inconsistently, too. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature Issue
I've seen this bug in 2007. Another way it shows is when you double click a measure in the Measure Tool to add a double bar, and it adds it in two places. THere are other manifestations, but I can't think of another right now. To the best of my knowledge, it is not present in 2008 (one of the few longstanding bugs that isn't!), but I'm off 2008 now, and so won't be seeing it there anyway. Christopher On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:23 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: Sorry it's taken me so long to respond on this. But today I realized, quite by accident, that every time I attempted to change the time signature on the recalcitrant measure, it was actually changing the 4th measure way back at the beginning, even tho I was selecting the 56th measure. Hmm. I set Finale to display actual rather than defined measure numbers, and eureka!!, back in business. This piece has many, many measure number regions out of necessity. Another bug perhaps?? J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Sep 17, 2007, at 3:48 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:17 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: I'm working in a Fin2K7 Mac file that I've been working with for several months. It was created in 2K7. I've had this problem before and can't remember how I've gotten around it: working in the score, I have a measure that steadfastly refuses to allow me to change the time signature. It's 3/2 now and every time I change it, it STAYS 3/2, no change. Anyone come across this and come up with a solution/workaround? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time Signature Issue
I'm working in a Fin2K7 Mac file that I've been working with for several months. It was created in 2K7. I've had this problem before and can't remember how I've gotten around it: working in the score, I have a measure that steadfastly refuses to allow me to change the time signature. It's 3/2 now and every time I change it, it STAYS 3/2, no change. Anyone come across this and come up with a solution/workaround? TIA. J D Thomas ThomaStudios ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature Issue
On Sep 17, 2007, at 6:17 PM, ThomaStudios wrote: I'm working in a Fin2K7 Mac file that I've been working with for several months. It was created in 2K7. I've had this problem before and can't remember how I've gotten around it: working in the score, I have a measure that steadfastly refuses to allow me to change the time signature. It's 3/2 now and every time I change it, it STAYS 3/2, no change. Anyone come across this and come up with a solution/workaround? Yes, I have seen this. It appears to be garden-variety file corruption, of which we are seeing a lot more since 2007. Sometimes I can change the three measures surrounding the problem measure, then change the one before back again. Sometimes the right- click doesn't work and I have to go to the menu; other times the menu doesn't work and the right-click is the only thing that works. File Maintenance is supposed to diagnose these problems, but on my system it never works, nor does Check Fonts. If the worst happens, I can copy the contents to a fresh document and usually the problem does not copy along with the contents. I always miss some things, though, and have to go back and put in some things like double bars. Staff Styles seem to copy inconsistently, too. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time signature discussion
If there is doubt in anyone's mind that simple time signatures are the norm in jazz, take a look at this piece, notated as closely as it can be according to the way Bill Evans played it. The bass and drum parts remain in 2/4 and a kind of 3/4 that crosses over a 4/4 feeling in the bridge, Notating this according to the surface rhythms would render the underlying bass and drum parts unintelligible. http://homepage.mac.com/cisraels/filechute/Five.pdf Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature discussion
On 5 Mar 2007 at 13:18, Chuck Israels wrote: If there is doubt in anyone's mind that simple time signatures are the norm in jazz, take a look at this piece, notated as closely as it can be according to the way Bill Evans played it. The bass and drum parts remain in 2/4 and a kind of 3/4 that crosses over a 4/4 feeling in the bridge, Notating this according to the surface rhythms would render the underlying bass and drum parts unintelligible. You and Darcy seem to me to be arguing against a straw man. I would *never* suggest doing something like that in any other way because *that's exactly what the music involved is about* and thus, it's the simplest way to notate it. In the 6/4 vs. 3/2 argument, I was never saying to switch all parts between the two meters, but only those parts where the accent pattern switched. Now, as it turns out, I've been informed that jazz musicians (like the musicians *I* work with) will distinguish in their playing between a shift of accent and a shift of meter. I'm relieved to know it. But the point is: I was suggesting that where the music being notated actually had a metric shift, it made more sense to notate the metric shift. When the point of the musical content is a conflict between meters, it can be *much* easier for the musicans playing the conflicting meter to understand if you notated in the underlying meter, particularly when it's the kind of thing they are accustomed to feeling. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature discussion
Agreed. Chuck On Mar 5, 2007, at 1:39 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 5 Mar 2007 at 13:18, Chuck Israels wrote: If there is doubt in anyone's mind that simple time signatures are the norm in jazz, take a look at this piece, notated as closely as it can be according to the way Bill Evans played it. The bass and drum parts remain in 2/4 and a kind of 3/4 that crosses over a 4/4 feeling in the bridge, Notating this according to the surface rhythms would render the underlying bass and drum parts unintelligible. You and Darcy seem to me to be arguing against a straw man. I would *never* suggest doing something like that in any other way because *that's exactly what the music involved is about* and thus, it's the simplest way to notate it. In the 6/4 vs. 3/2 argument, I was never saying to switch all parts between the two meters, but only those parts where the accent pattern switched. Now, as it turns out, I've been informed that jazz musicians (like the musicians *I* work with) will distinguish in their playing between a shift of accent and a shift of meter. I'm relieved to know it. But the point is: I was suggesting that where the music being notated actually had a metric shift, it made more sense to notate the metric shift. When the point of the musical content is a conflict between meters, it can be *much* easier for the musicans playing the conflicting meter to understand if you notated in the underlying meter, particularly when it's the kind of thing they are accustomed to feeling. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] time signature question
On Staff Attributes, click Time Signature as one of the Independent Elements. (Lower left corner of that window in 2005a.) Be sure to set it as Independent for each staff. Hope this works for you! Nancy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Kane Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 3:31 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] time signature question Greetings, Just a quick question here, I am working with a symphonic score, and I want one staff to be in 12/8 and the rest to be in 4/4 (or common time). Later in the piece I want one staff to be in 4/4 while all the others are in 12/8. Any suggestions? Thanks for all your help. Derek Come unto me... Matt. 11:28-30 Derek Kane Music Engraver/Worship Pastor ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] time signature question
Greetings, Just a quick question here, I am working with a symphonic score, and I want one staff to be in 12/8 and the rest to be in 4/4 (or common time). Later in the piece I want one staff to be in 4/4 while all the others are in 12/8. Any suggestions? Thanks for all your help. Derek Come unto me... Matt. 11:28-30 Derek Kane Music Engraver/Worship Pastor http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmapaddr=11458+SE+90th+Ave+apt+1231c sz=Happy+Valley%2C+OR+97086country=us 11458 SE 90th Ave apt 1231 Happy Valley, OR 97086 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: http://www.plaxo.com/click_to_call?src=jj_signatureTo=971-409-7456Email=d [EMAIL PROTECTED] 971-409-7456 https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=38656698161v0=3870361k0=2000175749 Add me to your address book... http://www.plaxo.com/signature Want a signature like this? image001.gif Description: GIF image ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] time signature question
At 04:30 PM 12/8/2006, Derek Kane wrote: Just a quick question here, I am working with a symphonic score, and I want one staff to be in 12/8 and the rest to be in 4/4 (or common time). Later in the piece I want one staff to be in 4/4 while all the others are in 12/8. Any suggestions? Sure. Take a look at 'Multiple time signature' in the manual. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 21 Jan 2006 at 19:42, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Keep in mind, this is the guy who didn't take time to RTFM That's a filthy lie. I clearly stated several times that really *did* read the manual, but I wasn't successful in finding the part having the needed explanation. And you probably know that, but posted a fabrication anyway. sotake it with a grain of salt.. Why don't people like you just send all my posts to the trash so you don't have to read what I write? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
You did read the manual? Oh yeah, just didn't see anything under OCTAVE, or doubling. I don't need to pour salt in your wounds anymore. I know it hurts. And it's not a filthy lie, unlike most of the posts you do here. However, you are coming across as a know it all. Just stop it. Stop insulting people. dhbailey did not need to have his post called idiotic. Honestly, I think you have no integrity at all. I have stopped reading you posts or just laugh at them. But I cannot sit by and let you continue to act this way towards other list members. Seriously, what kind of intent does one have in saying My original reply, which I edited, used the term idiotic. ??? It's insulting, and really generally makes you look bad again. Not that THAT is anything new. David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 19:42, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Keep in mind, this is the guy who didn't take time to RTFM That's a filthy lie. I clearly stated several times that really *did* read the manual, but I wasn't successful in finding the part having the needed explanation. And you probably know that, but posted a fabrication anyway. sotake it with a grain of salt.. Why don't people like you just send all my posts to the trash so you don't have to read what I write? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 22 Jan 2006 at 11:43, Eric Dannewitz wrote: You did read the manual? Oh yeah, just didn't see anything under OCTAVE, or doubling. I don't need to pour salt in your wounds anymore. I know it hurts. And it's not a filthy lie, unlike most of the posts you do here. It is a blatant lie and you know it. However, you are coming across as a know it all. Just stop it. Stop insulting people. dhbailey did not need to have his post called idiotic. . . . I didn't call his post idiotic. I specifically said I'd considered calling it idiotic and changed my mind. Again, you're lying about what I've said on the list. This is twice in one day (three times if you count the above repetition of the lie about RTFM). . . . Honestly, I think you have no integrity at all. . .. I'm not the one repeatedly posting lies on the list. . . . I have stopped reading you posts or just laugh at them. But I cannot sit by and let you continue to act this way towards other list members. . . . Exactly what are you going to do about it? Tell more lies? Seriously, what kind of intent does one have in saying My original reply, which I edited, used the term idiotic. ??? It's insulting, and really generally makes you look bad again. Not that THAT is anything new. He asked. I told him that I had changed the way I worded it. Why can't you just let it go? Why did you have to bring up the RTFM thing again, weeks after the discussion was over? Why do you have to bring up the exchange yesterday with David Bailey? He's had his say, I've had mine, and the discussion was over. But you have to bring it up again. Who is it who has the problem here? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Thank you to Johannes, Robert and Eric for the help on this. There is one thing I discovered which seems to alleviate the need for TGTools in this situation. I kept the 3/4 part of the signature in the Time Signature tool and replaced the plus sign with an *option* space. This gave me enough space for the parentheses, both between the 6/8 and 3/4, and before the music started. Mac '05, by the way. Thanks again. Don on 1/20/06 4:55 PM, Robert Patterson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hart wrote: I want the time signature to be 6/8 and to have 3/4 show immediately after in parentheses. Doing it with expressions is quite painless starting in Fin04, esp. with the help of TGTools to make the space at the beginning of the bar. I don't know of a better way. I would actually probably do it with 4 text exps that all default the correct place H relative to Start of Time Sig and V relative to Staff Reference line. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Don Hart wrote: Thank you to Johannes, Robert and Eric for the help on this. There is one thing I discovered which seems to alleviate the need for TGTools in this situation. I kept the 3/4 part of the signature in the Time Signature tool and replaced the plus sign with an *option* space. This gave me enough space for the parentheses, both between the 6/8 and 3/4, and before the music started. Mac '05, by the way. Thanks again. I'm glad you've got the actual problem sorted out. Now comes the inevitable music theory question -- If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. This is curiosity only, I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't do things as you've done them, I'm just wondering how the musicians will know the difference so they can play the different metrical stresses properly. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
I don't know what Don's piece looks like, but to take a well-known example: I like to be in America is notated this way, with 6/8(3/4) as time signature at the beginning, and I don't think there's any doubt how to play or conduct this piece. Michael Cook On 21 Jan 2006, at 12:21, dhbailey wrote: I'm glad you've got the actual problem sorted out. Now comes the inevitable music theory question -- If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. This is curiosity only, I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't do things as you've done them, I'm just wondering how the musicians will know the difference so they can play the different metrical stresses properly. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Le 06-01-21 à 06:21, dhbailey a écrit :If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. When beaming correctly in 3/4 and 6/8 measure, it should be obvious in which of the two he is. Following Ted Ross-like rules for beaming and rests should make it clear. Eric DussaultFinale 2006c for MacReal-time Finale discussion - http://www.finaleirc.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 1/21/06, Éric Dussault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 06-01-21 à 06:21, dhbailey a écrit : If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. When beaming correctly in 3/4 and 6/8 measure, it should be obvious in which of the two he is. Following Ted Ross-like rules for beaming and rests should make it clear. Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky If there is a quarter and a half in the bar, then the music is in 3/4 if there is a quarter and an eighth tied to dotted quarter, then it is 6/8. My most often performed piece shifts between 3/4 and 6/8; it's easy for musicians to figure out (it's been played a lot even at the high school level). As far as Finale thinking the meter is 6/8 + 3/4, all you'd need do is use a different signature for display in the time sig tool. Beaming could either be accomplished by region using the rebeam command, or if the meter changed too frequently, it would have to be done by hand; I find that pretty quick. I agree that addling time sigs together denotes actual addition, but putting one in parenthesis denotes an option not addition. In my experience this is common enough not to be problematic. -Carolyn ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On Jan 21, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 1/21/06, Éric Dussault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 06-01-21 à 06:21, dhbailey a écrit : If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. When beaming correctly in 3/4 and 6/8 measure, it should be obvious in which of the two he is. Following Ted Ross-like rules for beaming and rests should make it clear. Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? How would your example be performed differently in 6/8 or 3/4? However, the notation of it looks like 3/4 to me, and in 6/8 should probably be dotted quarter tied to eighth, quarter note, which would adequately denote the intended subdivision. Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. I don't get this. If you have set Finale to alternate measures of 6/8 and 3/4, but to always show as (whatever you chose), then beaming will occur automatically to the time signature unless you manually override it. Isn't that what is wanted? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 1/21/06, Christopher Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 21, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? How would your example be performed differently in 6/8 or 3/4? However, the notation of it looks like 3/4 to me, and in 6/8 should probably be dotted quarter tied to eighth, quarter note, which would adequately denote the intended subdivision. Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. I don't get this. If you have set Finale to alternate measures of 6/8 and 3/4, but to always show as (whatever you chose), then beaming will occur automatically to the time signature unless you manually override it. Isn't that what is wanted? That's the thing... Don is adapting the 6/8 + 3/4 signature to show as 6/8 (3/4). However, there's still the underlying signature addition that means that the default beaming will alternate between the two. He has indicated that it's not a strict measure-after-measure alternation, though; the timesig changes are irregular. Carolyn offered a good suggestion to get around this: have show as always set to the modified 6/8 + 3/4 and keep the actual timesig for each section set for the proper beaming. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 21.01.2006 Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? In what way would a dotted half be performed differently in 6/8 and 3/4? Reminds me of Gerald Hoffnung (the GP in 3/4, which typical the typical Viennese swing to it). Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Christopher Smith wrote: On Jan 21, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 1/21/06, Éric Dussault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 06-01-21 à 06:21, dhbailey a écrit : If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. When beaming correctly in 3/4 and 6/8 measure, it should be obvious in which of the two he is. Following Ted Ross-like rules for beaming and rests should make it clear. Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? How would your example be performed differently in 6/8 or 3/4? However, the notation of it looks like 3/4 to me, and in 6/8 should probably be dotted quarter tied to eighth, quarter note, which would adequately denote the intended subdivision. Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. I don't get this. If you have set Finale to alternate measures of 6/8 and 3/4, but to always show as (whatever you chose), then beaming will occur automatically to the time signature unless you manually override it. Isn't that what is wanted? Does Finale really alternate the time signatures and therefore the beaming if you use the + sign in the time signature? Whenever I've seen two meters it has never been an alternating every other measure sort of music, but rather some measures are in one meter, some in the other, and the mixture is consistent but not totally, so I don't see how Finale would know which beaming to use. Okay, I just tried this and I'm thoroughly confused -- how do you get the time signatures with the addition symbol? I just did it, using the Composite dialogue, and entered 2 over 1536 (using EDUs for the note values) and then 3 over 1024 and get the time signature to show 6/8 + 3/4, but that is for EACH measure, not alternating measures. I can now enter 12 8th-notes in measure, beamed 3, 3, 2, 2, 2. So how would Finale apply this to consecutive measures? If I enter a single time signature for the real time signature and then use the Use Different Signature For Display and set that to be the 6/8 + 3/4 then enter a bunch of 8th notes, they're all beamed in groups of 3 in each measure. Am I misunderstanding the process? Is there really a way to enter the two different meters and have Finale automatically switch beaming between alternating measures? -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 1/21/06, dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I misunderstanding the process? Is there really a way to enter the two different meters and have Finale automatically switch beaming between alternating measures? Seems I was misremembering with the alternation thing. In any case, giving the timesig for beaming as the real one, with show as set to the modified 6/8 + 3/4 is certainly a solution that will display properly. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
This is an answer to David's question but it gets into a few of the other ideas that have been brought up since. I was a little slow getting around to the list today (it's Saturday after all!). A recurring rhythmic figure in the piece is: q e q e / q q q - one measure clearly 6/8 and one 3/4. You can also see the clutter every one would be faced with trying to indicate each change in a piece like this. There's also an arpeggiated figure that is sort of like the Saturday Night Live character, Pat, (for any of you who remember) from several years back: e e e tied to e e e which I've chosen to beam in 6/8 but could go either way. :-) Although 6/8, in two, really is the predominant metric feeling, the 3/4 aspect of the piece seemed to need recognition in the time signature. The tempo is fast enough that there's not a ton of consecutive 8th notes, and the beaming also helps in those situations. After taking another look, though, it's probably a little slow to conduct in one, as I had mentioned in my original post. But it's also fast enough to have a dotted half line that doesn't feel like it's just sustaining. The way some of the phrases come together, a case could probably be made for 6/4 (12/8), but I think that could make the above-mentioned figure a little harder to read. Don on 1/21/06 5:21 AM, dhbailey at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hart wrote: Thank you to Johannes, Robert and Eric for the help on this. There is one thing I discovered which seems to alleviate the need for TGTools in this situation. I kept the 3/4 part of the signature in the Time Signature tool and replaced the plus sign with an *option* space. This gave me enough space for the parentheses, both between the 6/8 and 3/4, and before the music started. Mac '05, by the way. Thanks again. I'm glad you've got the actual problem sorted out. Now comes the inevitable music theory question -- If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. This is curiosity only, I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't do things as you've done them, I'm just wondering how the musicians will know the difference so they can play the different metrical stresses properly. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
I think that's where I originally saw this sort of thing. - Don on 1/21/06 5:41 AM, Michael Cook at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what Don's piece looks like, but to take a well-known example: I like to be in America is notated this way, with 6/8(3/4) as time signature at the beginning, and I don't think there's any doubt how to play or conduct this piece. Michael Cook On 21 Jan 2006, at 12:21, dhbailey wrote: I'm glad you've got the actual problem sorted out. Now comes the inevitable music theory question -- If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. This is curiosity only, I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't do things as you've done them, I'm just wondering how the musicians will know the difference so they can play the different metrical stresses properly. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 21 Jan 2006 at 6:21, dhbailey wrote: If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? From my point of view this is not a very smart question. Hundreds of years worth of music have been written without changing meters (and even without indicating the oscillation between two meters) where it is CRYSTAL-CLEAR which meter to use in which measures. With both meters allowing 6 8th notes (or 3 quarter notes) it may not be immediately obvious in measures other than ones full of 8th notes where you can show the meter with the beaming. Uh, absent 8th notes, where's the problem? A half and quarter, or 3 quarters or two dotted quarters are pretty clear, don't you think? Of course, if you actually mean to have an accent or syncopation, then you'd notate it the opposite of the expected. For instance, if you had a note of 4 8ths duration followed by 2 8ths, but you wanted it in 6/8, you'd notate it as dotted quarter tied to 3 8ths, which makes clear that it's a measure in 6/8. This is not by any means anything I'd consider the slightest bit difficult or ambiguous. I'm surprised anyone would even ask the question, as the solutions are so simple and obvious, as well as so incredibly widespread in so many historical repertories. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 21 Jan 2006 at 8:22, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? . . . Well, I don't know how someone could play that without it sounding like it's in 3/4 not 6/8, but if you really wanted them to try, you'd notate it as dotted quarter tied to 8th tied to quarter. I doubt it would have any audible effect, but it would certainly indicate that you didn't want it to be in 3/4 but in 6/8. . . . Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. You'd have to rebeam where Finale gets it wrong, but that's a given, since Finale can only beam automatically to the designated time signaturre. If you're not changing the time signatures, then you have to change the beaming to indicate the time signature. My bet is that in most music of this type, there's very little that has to be done to make it clear which is which. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 21 Jan 2006 at 9:19, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 1/21/06, Christopher Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 21, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, but what if there are no beams (a half note and a quarter note, for example)? How would your example be performed differently in 6/8 or 3/4? However, the notation of it looks like 3/4 to me, and in 6/8 should probably be dotted quarter tied to eighth, quarter note, which would adequately denote the intended subdivision. Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? This is a ludicrous question, seems to me, because there's no way whatsoever for a performer to perform a dotted half in 3/4 in a way that sounds rhythmically different from the same value in 6/8. It's bloody ridiculous to imagine that such a difference could possibly make a difference, but if you really wanted to make it clear, you'd tie two dotted quarter notes. But I expect most performers would think you were nuts. Also, Finale might make it difficult to ensure correct beaming, since it will alternate its default beaming between 6/8 and 3/4 in each subsequent measure. That's what adding timesigs together is supposed to denote. I don't get this. If you have set Finale to alternate measures of 6/8 and 3/4, but to always show as (whatever you chose), then beaming will occur automatically to the time signature unless you manually override it. Isn't that what is wanted? That's the thing... Don is adapting the 6/8 + 3/4 signature to show as 6/8 (3/4). However, there's still the underlying signature addition that means that the default beaming will alternate between the two. He has indicated that it's not a strict measure-after-measure alternation, though; the timesig changes are irregular. Carolyn offered a good suggestion to get around this: have show as always set to the modified 6/8 + 3/4 and keep the actual timesig for each section set for the proper beaming. You write as though this is some kind of revelation. Isn't it the bloody obvious way to do it? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
This post provided a nice little nudge for me to explore the positioning of expressions further than I had previously. I guess those of you who are more serious about engraving are already on top of things, but those who aren't should really check this out. I didn't realize that the Measure Positioning H and V settings had all those options. Both parentheses are included and spaced in the same expression, which now pops in to place perfectly when I enter it. Thanks, Robert! Don Hart on 1/20/06 4:55 PM, Robert Patterson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don Hart wrote: I want the time signature to be 6/8 and to have 3/4 show immediately after in parentheses. Doing it with expressions is quite painless starting in Fin04, esp. with the help of TGTools to make the space at the beginning of the bar. I don't know of a better way. I would actually probably do it with 4 text exps that all default the correct place H relative to Start of Time Sig and V relative to Staff Reference line. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
I'm using show as and handling the beaming etc. manually. The adjustments are straight forward and hardly noticeable for this piece. Don on 1/21/06 12:25 PM, Brad Beyenhof at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/21/06, dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I misunderstanding the process? Is there really a way to enter the two different meters and have Finale automatically switch beaming between alternating measures? Seems I was misremembering with the alternation thing. In any case, giving the timesig for beaming as the real one, with show as set to the modified 6/8 + 3/4 is certainly a solution that will display properly. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 9:19, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? This is a ludicrous question, seems to me, because there's no way whatsoever for a performer to perform a dotted half in 3/4 in a way that sounds rhythmically different from the same value in 6/8. It's bloody ridiculous to imagine that such a difference could possibly make a difference, but if you really wanted to make it clear, you'd tie two dotted quarter notes. But I expect most performers would think you were nuts. I fully agree. Otherwise the argument suggests we should eliminate 2/2, because there's no way to make a semibreve sound different to one in 4/4. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
At 8:42 PM + 1/21/06, Owain Sutton wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 9:19, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? I've stayed out of this particular food-fight, but is it possible that complex time signatures should be used ONLY for regularly alternating measures, and that irregular alternation should be indicated by changing time signatures? It certainly worked for Stravinsky, although it's darned hard to sightread. Dave Brubeck's 5/4 is consistently 3+2, while Tchaikovsky's regularly alternates 3+2 with 2+3. Should they have different time signatures? And another question: When one does change time signatures, is it proper always to use a double bar line, or never to use a double bar line? I've always used it, but I'm not sure why. Of course I use double bar lines at structural points as well, just to make sightreading and counting rests easier. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Le 06-01-21 à 16:05, John Howell a écrit :And another question: When one does change time signatures, is it proper always to use a double bar line, or never to use a double bar line? I've always used it, but I'm not sure why. Of course I use double bar lines at structural points as well, just to make sightreading and counting rests easier. No. it is not proper to use double barlines. In older music this was the practice, but with the much more common time signatures changes in modern music, it is just not necessary to use it, and it makes the music look cluttered. Some may prefer to use these, but I think it has become the general practice not to put double barlines at TS changes. Eric DussaultFinale 2006c for MacReal-time Finale discussion - http://www.finaleirc.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 1/21/06, Owain Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 9:19, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? This is a ludicrous question, seems to me, because there's no way whatsoever for a performer to perform a dotted half in 3/4 in a way that sounds rhythmically different from the same value in 6/8. I wasn't implying that there would be any difference in how it would be performed. However, the performers would probably like to be notified in some way whether the conductor will split that measure into 2 or 3 beats. It's bloody ridiculous to imagine that such a difference could possibly make a difference, but if you really wanted to make it clear, you'd tie two dotted quarter notes. But I expect most performers would think you were nuts. I fully agree. Otherwise the argument suggests we should eliminate 2/2, because there's no way to make a semibreve sound different to one in 4/4. Not at all; see my comments above. The only reason for even considering this is that, since the piece in question is alternately in 6/8 and 3/4, a dotted half note is ambiguous to a person reading only one part and they won't know what to expect from the conductor. I'm not suggesting that anything different needs to be done. I'm sure in many cases that a dotted half on its own would be sufficient; however, I just meant to provoke thought upon the matter. It is certainly unwarranted to say that suggesting the composer consider such issues is bloody ridiculous, and I'm sure there are certain rare situations in which it might not be bloody obvious. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 1/21/06, Owain Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 9:19, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? This is a ludicrous question, seems to me, because there's no way whatsoever for a performer to perform a dotted half in 3/4 in a way that sounds rhythmically different from the same value in 6/8. I wasn't implying that there would be any difference in how it would be performed. However, the performers would probably like to be notified in some way whether the conductor will split that measure into 2 or 3 beats. What, you want Boulez-style indications over every sustained note? If there's a regular alternation between 6/8 and 3/4, then a trained monkey could probably understand what the conductor was doing. Or, come to think of it, a trained monkey could conduct it ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 1/21/06, Owain Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 1/21/06, Owain Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 9:19, Brad Beyenhof wrote: Yes, I'll admit that that was a silly example, since it can easily be adapted to make either signature clear. What about a dotted half? This is a ludicrous question, seems to me, because there's no way whatsoever for a performer to perform a dotted half in 3/4 in a way that sounds rhythmically different from the same value in 6/8. I wasn't implying that there would be any difference in how it would be performed. However, the performers would probably like to be notified in some way whether the conductor will split that measure into 2 or 3 beats. What, you want Boulez-style indications over every sustained note? If there's a regular alternation between 6/8 and 3/4, then a trained monkey could probably understand what the conductor was doing. Or, come to think of it, a trained monkey could conduct it But we're *not* talking about regular alterations here. Also, if you had taken the time to read my entire message, you would have known that I had said that a dotted half note could very likely be fine all on its own. I was just presenting it as a point to consider; I wasn't trying to get anybody to change anything. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 6:21, dhbailey wrote: If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? From my point of view this is not a very smart question. Hundreds of years worth of music have been written without changing meters (and even without indicating the oscillation between two meters) where it is CRYSTAL-CLEAR which meter to use in which measures. You know, I could have sworn that over the years I seen people on this list say there are no stupid questions. Or is your ever so politic not a very smart question your way of avoiding calling my question stupid? And how would it be handled if half the parts are continuing the quarter-eighth rhythm while the other half of the parts are given quarter notes only? Oops, that's probably another not very smart question, despite having seen people conduct such music by continuing the 2 beat of the 6/8. Maybe they aren't so smart either. I could have sworn there was even a musical term for the situation I describe: hemiola. If we change the meter to fit the rhythm, then there isn't any cross-rhythm going on, so why even have such a term? Sorry if my questions aren't so smart, David Fenton. I guess it's because we can't all think of the brilliant questions to ask like you do. Anyway, David, thank you for your condescension. The day just wouldn't be right without it. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Exactly. After all, he's ALWAYS right. Who care what he thinks anyways? I think alternating 3/4 to 6/8 is just fine, especially if it is some sort of jazz piece where the 6/8 is played in a different feel. In fact, I know I have played something that alternated like this fairly recently. Maybe a Don Ellis tune? Piestrup? I don't remember. Don Ellis probably would have had a field day with Finale and alternating time signatures dhbailey wrote: You know, I could have sworn that over the years I seen people on this list say there are no stupid questions. Or is your ever so politic not a very smart question your way of avoiding calling my question stupid? And how would it be handled if half the parts are continuing the quarter-eighth rhythm while the other half of the parts are given quarter notes only? Oops, that's probably another not very smart question, despite having seen people conduct such music by continuing the 2 beat of the 6/8. Maybe they aren't so smart either. I could have sworn there was even a musical term for the situation I describe: hemiola. If we change the meter to fit the rhythm, then there isn't any cross-rhythm going on, so why even have such a term? Sorry if my questions aren't so smart, David Fenton. I guess it's because we can't all think of the brilliant questions to ask like you do. Anyway, David, thank you for your condescension. The day just wouldn't be right without it. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 21 Jan 2006 at 17:07, dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 21 Jan 2006 at 6:21, dhbailey wrote: If you're just placing the two meters beside each other at the start of the work, how will anybody know when a measure is supposed to get the 3/4 feeling instead of hemiolas in 6/8? From my point of view this is not a very smart question. Hundreds of years worth of music have been written without changing meters (and even without indicating the oscillation between two meters) where it is CRYSTAL-CLEAR which meter to use in which measures. You know, I could have sworn that over the years I seen people on this list say there are no stupid questions. Or is your ever so politic not a very smart question your way of avoiding calling my question stupid? My original reply, which I edited, used the term idiotic. And how would it be handled if half the parts are continuing the quarter-eighth rhythm while the other half of the parts are given quarter notes only? Oops, that's probably another not very smart question, despite having seen people conduct such music by continuing the 2 beat of the 6/8. Maybe they aren't so smart either. Well, that wasn't the question being considered, but, nonetheless, here's my answer: I play in a group that performs music just like that, where some parts are in 3 simultaneously with other parts in 2, and NOBODY HAS ANY PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER. I could have sworn there was even a musical term for the situation I describe: hemiola. If we change the meter to fit the rhythm, then there isn't any cross-rhythm going on, so why even have such a term? Sorry if my questions aren't so smart, David Fenton. I guess it's because we can't all think of the brilliant questions to ask like you do. Anyway, David, thank you for your condescension. The day just wouldn't be right without it. This situation is not complicated. I think all the people in this thread who are arguing for expicit metric changes are vastly overthinking the problem. It's been around for hundreds of years and performers have navigated the issue quite nicely without any of the suggested notational complexities, or with application of simple subdivision and beaming rules. And, of course, you weren't asking a question -- you were suggesting an answer by virtue of asking it. You were suggesting that something needed to be done, when, in fact, anyone with any experience of music ought to be able to see that there was no necessity for anything special to be done in the case of alternating 3/4 and 6/8, which have belonged together and functioned together literally for centuries. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] My original reply, which I edited, used the term idiotic. How kind of you. I feel ever so much better now. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Keep in mind, this is the guy who didn't take time to RTFM sotake it with a grain of salt.. dhbailey wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: [snip] My original reply, which I edited, used the term idiotic. How kind of you. I feel ever so much better now. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time signature question
I think this has been discussed before but I can't remember if there's a way to do it or not. The piece I'm working on alternates freely between 6/8 and 3/4 (probably conducted in one, with a dotted quarter = 90 bpm). Instead of cluttering the page with many, many time signatures, I want the time signature to be 6/8 and to have 3/4 show immediately after in parentheses. I can get a beautiful 6/8 *plus* 3/4 using the composite option in use different time signature for display, but haven't found a way to get rid of the plus sign or add the parentheses (within the realm of the time signature). Any thoughts? Is the only real option place 3/4 in parentheses as an expression? Thanks in advance for any help with this. Don Hart hartmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
On 20.01.2006 Don Hart wrote: I can get a beautiful 6/8 *plus* 3/4 using the composite option in use different time signature for display, but haven't found a way to get rid of the plus sign or add the parentheses (within the realm of the time signature). I don't know about the paranthesis, but you can just substitute the plus sign by a space in the time sig options. However, this is document-wide. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Don Hart wrote: I want the time signature to be 6/8 and to have 3/4 show immediately after in parentheses. Doing it with expressions is quite painless starting in Fin04, esp. with the help of TGTools to make the space at the beginning of the bar. I don't know of a better way. I would actually probably do it with 4 text exps that all default the correct place H relative to Start of Time Sig and V relative to Staff Reference line. -- Robert Patterson http://RobertGPatterson.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature question
Le 06-01-20 à 16:36, Don Hart a écrit :I can get a beautiful 6/8 *plus* 3/4 using the composite option in "use different time signature for display", but haven't found a way to get rid of the plus sign or add the parentheses (within the realm of the time signature). To remove the plus sign, go to document options -- time signature, then there is a button at the bottom of the window that lets you choose the character you want. Choosing empty character 202 should do the job. Eric DussaultFinale 2006c for MacReal-time Finale discussion - http://www.finaleirc.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time signature change
I'm wondering if there's a way to avoid a problem I've created for myself in the past. I'm working on an arrangement of a piece notated in 4/4 that really is better understood in cut time (like many Cole Porter songs), but I've done it in 4/4, and if I use the time signature tool to use another time signature for display, Finale will take measures with slashes and hidden quarter note rests and change the rests. Those with one chord will have a whole note rest - displacing the chord symbol to the center of the measure instead of the beginning where it belongs, and measures with two chords will have two half rests instead of keeping the original quarters - also creating spacing and positioning problems. I don't want to go through the messy process of repairing the damage this time signature change makes, if anyone knows a way of accomplishing this without changing the content of the measures containing only the hidden rests. Ideas? Thanks, Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature change
On 11/16/05, Chuck Israels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on an arrangement of a piece notated in 4/4 that really is better understood in cut time (like many Cole Porter songs), but I've done it in 4/4, and if I use the time signature tool to use another time signature for display, Finale will take measures with slashes and hidden quarter note rests and change the rests. Chuck: You should be able to get around this by unchecking Rebar measures when you modify the time signature. -- Brad Beyenhof Real-time Finale discussion: http://www.finaleirc.com my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Silence will save me from being wrong (and foolish), but it will also deprive me of the possibility of being right. ~ Igor Stravinsky ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature change
On Nov 16, 2005, at 11:11 AM, Brad Beyenhof wrote: On 11/16/05, Chuck Israels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on an arrangement of a piece notated in 4/4 that really is better understood in cut time (like many Cole Porter songs), but I've done it in 4/4, and if I use the time signature tool to use another time signature for display, Finale will take measures with slashes and hidden quarter note rests and change the rests. Chuck: You should be able to get around this by unchecking Rebar measures when you modify the time signature. Perfect! Easy! Thanks again, Brad. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature
Thanks so much for helping me David. Tried to find the answer in the manual before I asked the list but, really had trouble finding the answer. Sure feel fortunate that there are such helpful people in this group. George - Original Message - From: dhbailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Time Signature George Ports wrote: How can I change the time signature from 1/4 to 4/4 in a pickup measure without moving anything (Lyrics etc.) around? The 4/4 was accidently put in measure 1 instead of the pickup measure. I hide the 4/4 measure and can show the 1/4 measure in the pickup measure but the pickup measure needs to say 4/4. Everything moves around when I try to change the 4/4 to 1/4. Sorry for rambling on. George Ports Read the manual about the Time Signature tool -- it explains it in great detail. The short form -- In your pickup measure, use the time-signature tool to set it to 1/4, then click the OPTIONS button, check the box for USE DIFFERENT SIGNATURE FOR DISPLAY and set that one to be 4/4 and you'll get just what you want. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time Signature
How can I change the time signature from 1/4 to 4/4 in a pickup measure without moving anything (Lyrics etc.) around? The 4/4 was accidently put in measure 1 instead of the pickup measure. I hide the 4/4 measure and can show the 1/4 measure in the pickup measure but the pickup measure needs to say 4/4. Everything moves around when I try to change the 4/4 to 1/4. Sorry for rambling on. George Ports ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature
George Ports wrote: How can I change the time signature from 1/4 to 4/4 in a pickup measure without moving anything (Lyrics etc.) around? The 4/4 was accidently put in measure 1 instead of the pickup measure. I hide the 4/4 measure and can show the 1/4 measure in the pickup measure but the pickup measure needs to say 4/4. Everything moves around when I try to change the 4/4 to 1/4. Sorry for rambling on. George Ports Read the manual about the Time Signature tool -- it explains it in great detail. The short form -- In your pickup measure, use the time-signature tool to set it to 1/4, then click the OPTIONS button, check the box for USE DIFFERENT SIGNATURE FOR DISPLAY and set that one to be 4/4 and you'll get just what you want. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
Richard Yates wrote: The whole system works like it should with TWO or more staves, which is the only situation I can think of where one would even want independent key or independent time signatures enabled. I only discovered it because the SmartScore scanning default leaves that box checked even if there is only one staff. It took quite a while to figure out what was going on. I can imagine your frustration with it -- sounds like a bug in SmartScore as well as in Finale. There's no need for SmartScore to set that attribute for a single staff, but if it's going to, why not have it set independent TIME signature as well? It makes as much sense as setting independent KEY signature when there's only one staff! -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
Yes: with FinMac 2005 I followed your steps and got the same result, both with a new file without libraries and with a copy of the default file. I also tried changing to different time signatures (6/8, 3/2, composite...), in several measures or only one measure, with the same result. As far as I can tell, the bug has no serious consequences, since there is no need to have Independent Key Signature checked for a single staff score. But it's worrying all the same. And other weird things happen. Try these steps: - New Document Without Libraries: time signature is 'C' - Add 5 measures (makes 2 systems) - Fill measures 4 to 6 with 12 quarter notes - Use Staff Attributes to set independent key signature (please note: KEY signature, not time signature!) - Change to Time Signature tool, double-click on the first measure and change the time signature to 3/4 (or any other, as far as I can make out) - When I have finished these steps, the time signature is still 'C' but the music I entered in measures 4 to 6 has moved to measures 1 to 3 Note that the bug does not appear if independent TIME signature is also checked. Best wishes, Michael Cook On 28 Mar, 2005, at 3:38, Richard Yates wrote: After months of protest at the EPS failure I was forced to move up to Finale2005. The first thing I tried to do revealed a bug. Can anyone confirm this one? Start a new document, single staff, with 4/4 time signature. In Staff Attributes check 'Independent Key Signature'. With the Time Signature Tool try to change the time signature to 3/4. Nothing happens - it won't change. Go back and uncheck 'Independent Key Signature'. Now changing time signature works. Why would anyone want to do this, you ask? When SmartScore starts a file it has that attrribute checked and assumes 4/4. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
Start a new document, single staff, with 4/4 time signature. In Staff Attributes check 'Independent Key Signature'. With the Time Signature Tool try to change the time signature to 3/4. Nothing happens - it won't change. Go back and uncheck 'Independent Key Signature'. Now changing time signature works. Why would anyone want to do this, you ask? When SmartScore starts a file it has that attrribute checked and assumes 4/4. I just tried it (WinFin2005b) and was able to change the time signature just fine. Have you downloaded and installed the update patch? I had not, but now I have. The bug is still there. I note that Michael Cook was able to replicate this and wonder if others have misread the instructions. It is the independent KEY signature being checked that then prevents the TIME signature tool from working. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
My apologies Richard. I think I read your post too hurriedly before trying it and must have clicked the wrong independent box. I do indeed replicate your bug. Finale 2005b for Mac. John Roberts On 3/27/05 8:38 PM, Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After months of protest at the EPS failure I was forced to move up to Finale2005. The first thing I tried to do revealed a bug. Can anyone confirm this one? Start a new document, single staff, with 4/4 time signature. In Staff Attributes check 'Independent Key Signature'. With the Time Signature Tool try to change the time signature to 3/4. Nothing happens - it won't change. Go back and uncheck 'Independent Key Signature'. Now changing time signature works. Why would anyone want to do this, you ask? When SmartScore starts a file it has that attrribute checked and assumes 4/4. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
It's there if you check the independent KEY signature box (not the independent time signature box) and then try to change the TIME signature. It won't change. But if you ALSO check the independent time signature box it will change. And once you have TWO staves, the time signature changes just fine. Why anybody with ONE staff would want independent key or time signatures is beyong me (what is it independent from, if it's the only staff), but ours is not to question why. Clearly this is not a devastating bug on the nature of EPS travesties, but, heck, it might be easy for them to fix and they can brag they've actually fixed reported bugs, all the while ignoring the EPS problems. The whole system works like it should with TWO or more staves, which is the only situation I can think of where one would even want independent key or independent time signatures enabled. David H. Bailey Ron Shillingford wrote: In the time signature tool, have you clicked the options button, that expands the dialogue box and unchecked the use different time signature for display box? I can't reproduce the bug in FinWIn2005b RS On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:52:49 -0800, Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Start a new document, single staff, with 4/4 time signature. In Staff Attributes check 'Independent Key Signature'. With the Time Signature Tool try to change the time signature to 3/4. Nothing happens - it won't change. Go back and uncheck 'Independent Key Signature'. Now changing time signature works. Why would anyone want to do this, you ask? When SmartScore starts a file it has that attrribute checked and assumes 4/4. I just tried it (WinFin2005b) and was able to change the time signature just fine. Have you downloaded and installed the update patch? I had not, but now I have. The bug is still there. I note that Michael Cook was able to replicate this and wonder if others have misread the instructions. It is the independent KEY signature being checked that then prevents the TIME signature tool from working. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
The whole system works like it should with TWO or more staves, which is the only situation I can think of where one would even want independent key or independent time signatures enabled. I only discovered it because the SmartScore scanning default leaves that box checked even if there is only one staff. It took quite a while to figure out what was going on. RY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time Signature bug
After months of protest at the EPS failure I was forced to move up to Finale2005. The first thing I tried to do revealed a bug. Can anyone confirm this one? Start a new document, single staff, with 4/4 time signature. In Staff Attributes check 'Independent Key Signature'. With the Time Signature Tool try to change the time signature to 3/4. Nothing happens - it won't change. Go back and uncheck 'Independent Key Signature'. Now changing time signature works. Why would anyone want to do this, you ask? When SmartScore starts a file it has that attrribute checked and assumes 4/4. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, Richard Yates wrote: After months of protest at the EPS failure I was forced to move up to Finale2005. The first thing I tried to do revealed a bug. Can anyone confirm this one? I followed your steps to recreate the bug. I tried it with the default document and a document without libraries. It happily changed to 3/4, 5/4, 3/8, etc. Thus, I was unable to recreated the bug. I'm using Windows Finale 2005b. James Gilbert http://www.jamesgilbertmusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time Signature bug
No problem here in FinMac 2005 (I have other problems, but let's leave that one alone for now) John Roberts On 3/27/05 8:38 PM, Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After months of protest at the EPS failure I was forced to move up to Finale2005. The first thing I tried to do revealed a bug. Can anyone confirm this one? Start a new document, single staff, with 4/4 time signature. In Staff Attributes check 'Independent Key Signature'. With the Time Signature Tool try to change the time signature to 3/4. Nothing happens - it won't change. Go back and uncheck 'Independent Key Signature'. Now changing time signature works. Why would anyone want to do this, you ask? When SmartScore starts a file it has that attrribute checked and assumes 4/4. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Time signature
Dear list, Something very strange on an imported file : I can't change the measure 1 time signature. When I apply different time signatures to measure 1 through End of piece, the first measure stay in 1/4? (even when I delete it)?? Thanks for your responses. Pierre. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature
Do you have a pickup measure? Options -- Pickup Measure -- Clear pickup Richard Yates - Original Message - From: Pierre Bailleul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:36 AM Subject: [Finale] Time signature Dear list, Something very strange on an imported file : I can't change the measure 1 time signature. When I apply different time signatures to measure 1 through End of piece, the first measure stay in 1/4? (even when I delete it)?? Thanks for your responses. Pierre. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Time signature
It's Ok now. Thanks for your aid. Pierre. From: Richard Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you have a pickup measure? Options -- Pickup Measure -- Clear pickup Richard Yates - Original Message - From: Pierre Bailleul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:36 AM Subject: [Finale] Time signature Dear list, Something very strange on an imported file : I can't change the measure 1 time signature. When I apply different time signatures to measure 1 through End of piece, the first measure stay in 1/4? (even when I delete it)?? Thanks for your responses. Pierre. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] time signature question
Surely you intend that the crotchets in the 2/4 time will be dotted crotchet length of the crotchets in 3/4 time? I can't figure how you have different numbers of bars at the end. I just set up a SATB system and with staff tool set S and A to independent time sigs, selected 3 bars on these staves and with time sig. tool changed them to 2/4. Wrote crotchets in every bar (3 in 3/4, 2 in 2/4) and they played back perfectly. Is it more complicated than this? Stan Lord On 6 Nov 2004, at 12:57, Lawrence David Eden wrote: Greetings Listers, I am try to transcribe the Zither Carol and I don't know how to make a few things happen. Here are my questions: Soprano and alto must use an independant time signature at various times during the music. The carol is written in 3/4 time, but the soprano and alto are in 2/4. During the chorus, all the voices use the same time signature. Although I can write the parts just fine, I notice that due to the different time signatures, soprano and alto have 20 measures total when tenors and bass have 18. Playback is a mess. How can I get around this issue and have the parts play back correctly together? The 2/4 bars in the sop and alto move very slowly...the 3/4 bars are correct. Larry ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] time signature question
Greetings Listers, I am try to transcribe the Zither Carol and I don't know how to make a few things happen. Here are my questions: Soprano and alto must use an independant time signature at various times during the music. The carol is written in 3/4 time, but the soprano and alto are in 2/4. During the chorus, all the voices use the same time signature. Although I can write the parts just fine, I notice that due to the different time signatures, soprano and alto have 20 measures total when tenors and bass have 18. Playback is a mess. How can I get around this issue and have the parts play back correctly together? The 2/4 bars in the sop and alto move very slowly...the 3/4 bars are correct. Larry ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] time signature question
Lawrence David Eden wrote: Greetings Listers, I am try to transcribe the Zither Carol and I don't know how to make a few things happen. Here are my questions: Soprano and alto must use an independant time signature at various times during the music. The carol is written in 3/4 time, but the soprano and alto are in 2/4. During the chorus, all the voices use the same time signature. Although I can write the parts just fine, I notice that due to the different time signatures, soprano and alto have 20 measures total when tenors and bass have 18. Playback is a mess. How can I get around this issue and have the parts play back correctly together? The 2/4 bars in the sop and alto move very slowly...the 3/4 bars are correct. Create two systems: one for publication which you deactivate for playback and the other (transcribed to the time signature of the instruments) for playback on MIDI only -- John Poole Editions Poole http://www.editionspoole.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] time signature question
Lawrence David Eden wrote: Greetings Listers, I am try to transcribe the Zither Carol and I don't know how to make a few things happen. Here are my questions: Soprano and alto must use an independant time signature at various times during the music. The carol is written in 3/4 time, but the soprano and alto are in 2/4. During the chorus, all the voices use the same time signature. Although I can write the parts just fine, I notice that due to the different time signatures, soprano and alto have 20 measures total when tenors and bass have 18. Playback is a mess. How can I get around this issue and have the parts play back correctly together? The 2/4 bars in the sop and alto move very slowly...the 3/4 bars are correct. I'm assuming that you want beat one of each 2/4 measure for Soprano and Alto parts to coincide with beat one of each 3/4 measure for Tenor and Bass parts. If that isn't what you desire then the rest of this won't be helpful at all. When you have two different meters that move at different speeds, there is a problem with playback in Finale, because it will treat all quarter notes in the same song at the same speed unless you define tuplets. So if one part has three quarter-notes' worth of music which must be played during the two quarter-notes' amount of time of the other part, what you have to do is to assign tuplets to one or the other part, use independent time signatures but in defining the signatures set them to be the same but use different signatures for display. Example: Soprano and alto parts (independent time signature): 2/4, defined as 3/4 but with 2/4 set for display, then assign each measure as a tuplet (without number or bracket) where 2 quarter notes are played in the space of 3 quarter notes. Tenor and bass parts: 3/4 as normal. Then for the chorus section, set both time signatures to 3/4. Thus each measure will occupy the same space, but the notes will be spread out evenly to cover the same amount of time within both parts. Again, if I have misunderstood your problem this won't help at all and I apologize. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
