RE: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Smith Sent: 13 January 2006 01:12 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:40 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: They use a spinner control, which when used to increment a number, generally adds 1 for the up arrow of the spinner control, and -1 for the down arrow. It may be that the spinner control is actually a fake one, created with a text box and two command buttons. That doesn't change the fact that it acts like a conventional spinner control. Some more inconsistencies: In Speedy Entry, Shift-DOWN Arrow changes from Layer 1 to Layer 2. Eh? - I can't get this to work. Wish it did. In Speedy, Shift-Down Arrow moves me down to the next stave. Is there a way to switch on your behaviour? In the Group Attributes box (after selecting Edit Group Attributes) clicking the UP arrow goes from Group 1 to Group 2. In the Staff Attributes box clicking the DOWN arrow goes from Staff 1 to Staff 2. This actually makes sense to me, whereas the other two seem to be random. One group or layer is not necessarily above another, as in the case of staves, and even that can be re-ordered manually. Whether or not that is an appropriate choice by the programmers is a more complicated issue. Yep. Sure is. Christopher Gary Griffiths ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
Which version and platform? In 2005 on the mac you can go to Speedy Navigation in the Speedy menu and see a lot of the available keyboard shortcuts (I don't think that's all of them). Shift-DOWN Arrow is listed as Christopher describes. It was there for switching layers in Speedy before we had the option command 1-4 shortcuts for use anywhere in the program. Don Hart on 1/13/06 3:12 AM, Gary Griffiths at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shift-DOWN Arrow changes from Layer 1 to Layer 2. Smith Sent: 13 January 2006 01:12 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics Some more inconsistencies: In Speedy Entry, Shift-DOWN Arrow changes from Layer 1 to Layer 2. Eh? - I can't get this to work. Wish it did. In Speedy, Shift-Down Arrow moves me down to the next stave. Is there a way to switch on your behaviour? In the Group Attributes box (after selecting Edit Group Attributes) clicking the UP arrow goes from Group 1 to Group 2. In the Staff Attributes box clicking the DOWN arrow goes from Staff 1 to Staff 2. This actually makes sense to me, whereas the other two seem to be random. One group or layer is not necessarily above another, as in the case of staves, and even that can be re-ordered manually. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
Mark D Lew wrote: On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:37 AM, Simon Troup wrote: Is it just me or are the arrows the wrong way around for selecting which set of lyrics to edit in the edit lyrics dialogue box. I feel that way about ALL dialog boxes in which one clicks the up arrow to decrement and the down arrow to increment. To name just one examples out of scores, if I open up the window to set my system's clock and calendar, clicking the up arrow moves me to Jan 13, and clicking the down arrow moves me to Jan 11. I don't know why, but by my intuition, that's backward. To my way of thinking, clicking down, as if continuing down the page, should make the number become more/forward/later, whille clicking up should make the number become less/backward/earlier. Of course I realize that the standard practice in software is to do exactly the opposite, but even after years of struggling with it, it still feels wrong to me, and I still click the wrong arrow as often as not. Wow! I've never had any problem with the concept that the up-arrow in such situations moves to a higher number. I think it all depends on how we imagine whichever continuum those buttons increment/decrement is organized. For instance, I have no problem imagining 2 as a higher number than 1, so it's easy for me to click the up-arrow to raise the number from 1 to 2, and the down-arrow to lower it from 1 to 0. However, with alphabets, I imagine A as the top and Z as the bottom, so when such a setup makes me click the up-arrow to move from A to B, that's when I have problems, because there shouldn't be anything to move up from A to, in my mind. I should click the down-arrow to move from A to B. Same with layers -- I can easily imagine layer 1 as being the top layer and layer 4 being the bottom layer. But I can also see the dichotomy in my mental image of pure numbers moving up from 1 to 2, but numbered-items moving down from item-1 to item-2. I've been using computers for so long I don't know if my thinking is conditioned by my computer usage or if it was already in place. But I think that such things are the main basis in the problems any of us have (and the concurrent complaints) with any/all user-interfaces. We think they're great and intuitive when their logic follows our own, and we think they're stupid/poorly-developed/counter-intuitive when their logic runs counter to our own. There isn't any universally-agreeable, really intuitive way of doing things. At least as far as I understand things. The moment you make something intuitive for person A, you've likely made it counter-intuitive for person B. So the poor people who design user interfaces are always receiving the same messages of complaint, no matter how they alter the user interface. It's just the people sending the messages which change from complaint to compliment or vice-versa. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
dc wrote: Mark D Lew écrit: Of course I realize that the standard practice in software is to do exactly the opposite, but even after years of struggling with it, it still feels wrong to me, and I still click the wrong arrow as often as not. Nice to know I'm not the only one! I guess this is the logic of anyone who thinks of this as of reading... Page down takes you to the next page, not to the preceding one. But you see, right there is a major intuition flaw for some people -- my mother-in-law, for instance, had the hardest time getting Page-Down (and indeed the whole downward-scrolling concept) and Page-Up (and the concept of up-scrolling) since when you click the Page-Down button the actual image on the screen moves UP. She (and I'm sure lots of other users) feel that when you click the up-scroll icon, the image should do what you are telling it to do, and actually move UP the screen. So as I mentioned in another post a minute ago -- there will NEVER be a user interface that all will agree upon as being intuitive. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
But I think that such things are the main basis in the problems any of us have (and the concurrent complaints) with any/all user-interfaces. We think they're great and intuitive when their logic follows our own, and we think they're stupid/poorly-developed/counter-intuitive when their logic runs counter to our own. There isn't any universally-agreeable, really intuitive way of doing things. At least as far as I understand things. The moment you make something intuitive for person A, you've likely made it counter-intuitive for person B. I've pointed out what I think the mental analogy should be, as follows: 1st line of lyrics 2nd line of lyrics 3rd line of lyrics which is 1 2 3 and it seems there are some people who see this as the intuitive ordering: 3 2 1 It seems to me this must be like the left/right brained thing. Those of us seeing visual lists (1. 2. 3.) and those thinking of numbering logic (2 is 'higher' than one). For instance, I have no problem imagining 2 as a higher number than 1, so it's easy for me to click the up-arrow to raise the number from 1 to 2, and the down-arrow to lower it from 1 to 0. I don't have a problem with it, I just always click the wrong arrow once at the beginning of each edit (not using it everyday). I was just wondering if it's one of those things that no-one ever complained about because it's never the most pressing thing (always something bigger broken!). -- Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On 12 Jan 2006 at 20:12, Christopher Smith wrote: Some more inconsistencies: In Speedy Entry, Shift-DOWN Arrow changes from Layer 1 to Layer 2. Eh? Shift-Down Arrow moves to the frame below the one you're already in. Shift-Apostrophe changes layers. At least, that's the way it has always been on Windows in US versions of Finale. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On Jan 13, 2006, at 8:54 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 12 Jan 2006 at 20:12, Christopher Smith wrote: Some more inconsistencies: In Speedy Entry, Shift-DOWN Arrow changes from Layer 1 to Layer 2. Eh? Shift-Down Arrow moves to the frame below the one you're already in. Shift-Apostrophe changes layers. At least, that's the way it has always been on Windows in US versions of Finale. Must be a Mac thing. Return moves down a frame in Mac, and Shift-Return moves up. Oh well, considering how many inconsistencies there are between the Windows and Mac standard operating procedures, it is amazing that the two versions of Finale are as similar as they are in almost every other way. But my point stands, that arrow up sometimes means move from 1 to 2, whereas arrow down in other instances means the same thing. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On 13.01.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: Eh? Shift-Down Arrow moves to the frame below the one you're already in. Shift-Apostrophe changes layers. At least, that's the way it has always been on Windows in US versions of Finale. Must be a difference between Mac and Win. However, on Mac Shift-Apostrophe changes voices, not layers, and I am wondering whether you mixed the two up. If not this is actually quite a major difference in functionality, as far as I can see, as there are four layers, which on the Mac you can change up and down with shift-arrow, while there are only two voices and only one key combination to change between them. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
Quoted from the book Finale 2005 Power!, Chapter 3, section on Speedy Entry (see http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/resources/book_finalepower.aspx where this chapter can be downloaded for free): To move between layers on Windows, hold down Shift and press the ‘ (apostrophe) key; and on Macintosh, hold down Shift and use the up and down arrows. On 13 Jan 2006, at 15:19, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 13.01.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: Eh? Shift-Down Arrow moves to the frame below the one you're already in. Shift-Apostrophe changes layers. At least, that's the way it has always been on Windows in US versions of Finale. Must be a difference between Mac and Win. However, on Mac Shift-Apostrophe changes voices, not layers, and I am wondering whether you mixed the two up. If not this is actually quite a major difference in functionality, as far as I can see, as there are four layers, which on the Mac you can change up and down with shift-arrow, while there are only two voices and only one key combination to change between them. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On 13.01.2006 Michael Cook wrote: Quoted from the book Finale 2005 Power!, Chapter 3, section on Speedy Entry (see http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/resources/book_finalepower.aspx where this chapter can be downloaded for free): To move between layers on Windows, hold down Shift and press the ‘ (apostrophe) key; and on Macintosh, hold down Shift and use the up and down arrows. Ah, so there really is a big difference. Good to know, thanks. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
To anyone who wouldn't already know: I found an error in the note on page 16 (of the pdf file) in that sample chapter Michael mentioned. Quote: You can use Alt-Shift-# and Option-Shift-# to change layers at any time, just as you can with the Simple Entry Caret. On the mac version it's Command-Option-# not Option-Shift-#, as I mentioned earlier. Don Hart hartmusic.com on 1/13/06 9:11 AM, Michael Cook at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoted from the book Finale 2005 Power!, Chapter 3, section on Speedy Entry (see http://www.finalemusic.com/finale/resources/book_finalepower.aspx where this chapter can be downloaded for free): To move between layers on Windows, hold down Shift and press the (apostrophe) key; and on Macintosh, hold down Shift and use the up and down arrows. On 13 Jan 2006, at 15:19, Johannes Gebauer wrote: On 13.01.2006 David W. Fenton wrote: Eh? Shift-Down Arrow moves to the frame below the one you're already in. Shift-Apostrophe changes layers. At least, that's the way it has always been on Windows in US versions of Finale. Must be a difference between Mac and Win. However, on Mac Shift-Apostrophe changes voices, not layers, and I am wondering whether you mixed the two up. If not this is actually quite a major difference in functionality, as far as I can see, as there are four layers, which on the Mac you can change up and down with shift-arrow, while there are only two voices and only one key combination to change between them. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On 12.01.2006 Simon Troup wrote: Is it just me or are the arrows the wrong way around for selecting which set of lyrics to edit in the edit lyrics dialogue box. At least it is consistent with the rest of Finale. The same applies to the Staff Settings Dialog. The measure dialog should have right and left arrows. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
Simon Troup wrote: Is it just me or are the arrows the wrong way around for selecting which set of lyrics to edit in the edit lyrics dialogue box. Wrong might be a bit extreme, because while I agree that there is an inconstency in the interace, I submit that it may be an artifact of the legacy part of the situation. The convention is lyrics is to print higher numbered stanzas lower, as you note 1. Lyrics 1 2. Lyrics 2 3. Lyrics 3 and indeed the click-assign dialog box, when one moves the slider at the right hand side down, does place the next lyric below the previous. But it seems to me that it is a reasonable design choice in editing text blocks, to expect that if one wants to edit a higher numbered block, to access it by way of the up arrow, and to access a lower numbered block by using the down arrow, and it appears that he designers of the interface used the same basic design in the edit lyrics and the edit text block dialogs. Since I don't know any details about the coding, I don't know how hard it would be to change the order. I know the coding is not identical, because in the lyrics, one can select the subspace (verse, chorus, section), and also specify an exact part of the selected subspace (verse 1, chorus 3, c.), whereas the only way to navigate the text block dialog, is sequentially by means of the arrows. [NB: Yes, I know one can select a handle of a text block, and edit that particular block] ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
But it seems to me that it is a reasonable design choice in editing text blocks, to expect that if one wants to edit a higher numbered block, to access it by way of the up arrow, and to access a lower numbered block by using the down arrow, and it appears that he designers of the interface used the same basic design in the edit lyrics and the edit text block dialogs. If you're inputting lyrics (Type Into Score) and want to get from 1 to 2 you press the down arrow, so that to me means that it is internally inconsistent. The logic seems pretty simple to me, make any numbered list and see which way you wrote it ... top to bottom most likely. That's why the lists of instruments in the instrument list run from top to bottom, and why text expression numbers start with 1 at the top. Number 1 is first, and that should be at the top - it is back to front. I understand your idea of higher numbered blocks, but I'm struggling to think of any real world analogies where it's actually used, and it's use in Finale is very much the exception to the rule. -- Simon Troup Digital Music Art ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On 12 Jan 2006 at 16:41, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Since I don't know any details about the coding, I don't know how hard it would be to change the order. I know the coding is not identical, because in the lyrics, one can select the subspace (verse, chorus, section), and also specify an exact part of the selected subspace (verse 1, chorus 3, c.), whereas the only way to navigate the text block dialog, is sequentially by means of the arrows. [NB: Yes, I know one can select a handle of a text block, and edit that particular block] The implementation is this: They use a spinner control, which when used to increment a number, generally adds 1 for the up arrow of the spinner control, and -1 for the down arrow. It may be that the spinner control is actually a fake one, created with a text box and two command buttons. That doesn't change the fact that it acts like a conventional spinner control. Whether or not that is an appropriate choice by the programmers is a more complicated issue. I always have to think twice myself when using the lyrics edit dialog, but that's because I'm thinking about the task at hand in musical/engraving terms, instead of about the numbers that I'm incrementing. Likewise with the measure edit dialog, clearly, to me, a horizontal soinner control would make much more sense. This is precisely the kind of issue that shows one of the places where computer programming is hard. If you choose the intuitive musical method, your spinner is going to behave differently in different contexts, which is bad UI design. However, I don't think that's one of those rules that is hard and fast, and should, I believe, be broken when it makes sense to do so. Another alternative would be to use user interface widgets that don't have implied behaviors that contradict the musically intuitive behavior. That's another subtle issue, and an example of the law of leaky abstractions, where the computer programming issues leak through to the conscious level of users who have to adjust their thinking to the computer programming, instead of using a mental model that is appropriate to the task at hand. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On Jan 12, 2006, at 6:40 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: They use a spinner control, which when used to increment a number, generally adds 1 for the up arrow of the spinner control, and -1 for the down arrow. It may be that the spinner control is actually a fake one, created with a text box and two command buttons. That doesn't change the fact that it acts like a conventional spinner control. Some more inconsistencies: In Speedy Entry, Shift-DOWN Arrow changes from Layer 1 to Layer 2. In the Group Attributes box (after selecting Edit Group Attributes) clicking the UP arrow goes from Group 1 to Group 2. In the Staff Attributes box clicking the DOWN arrow goes from Staff 1 to Staff 2. This actually makes sense to me, whereas the other two seem to be random. One group or layer is not necessarily above another, as in the case of staves, and even that can be re-ordered manually. Whether or not that is an appropriate choice by the programmers is a more complicated issue. Yep. Sure is. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Edit Lyrics
On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:37 AM, Simon Troup wrote: Is it just me or are the arrows the wrong way around for selecting which set of lyrics to edit in the edit lyrics dialogue box. I feel that way about ALL dialog boxes in which one clicks the up arrow to decrement and the down arrow to increment. To name just one examples out of scores, if I open up the window to set my system's clock and calendar, clicking the up arrow moves me to Jan 13, and clicking the down arrow moves me to Jan 11. I don't know why, but by my intuition, that's backward. To my way of thinking, clicking down, as if continuing down the page, should make the number become more/forward/later, whille clicking up should make the number become less/backward/earlier. Of course I realize that the standard practice in software is to do exactly the opposite, but even after years of struggling with it, it still feels wrong to me, and I still click the wrong arrow as often as not. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
