Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Paul Andrews wrote:

> Hi Guys - I go out for the afternoon to chat with the client and the list is
> alive with info about pianos!
>
> This is a low budget thing and not an attempt at emulating a Steinway.

I know. We know. But you know how we are--we get a bone between our
teeth and we can't let go :-)

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Paul Andrews]

Hi Guys - I go out for the afternoon to chat with the client and the 
list is alive with info about pianos!


This is a low budget thing and not an attempt at emulating a Steinway. 
The actual project I can't really say much about but this is just a 
"proof of concept" thing that will decide "what happens next".


Thanks for all the enthusiasm guys!

Paul
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Henrik Andersson]

Kerry Thompson skriver:

Henrik Andersson wrote:


... and volume controls wouldn't be able to emulate different attacks.


Yes they could. Who is to say that you can't make the control change based
on the frequency?


Of course you could base the volume control based on the frequency.
You could emulate louder notes, but I'm not talking about a
good-enough sound. I'm talking about a realistic piano sound.

There is much more that goes into the attack than volume, though.
There are overtones; noise (the hammer hitting the strings, for
example); the speed of the rise and fall, which vary by note, and
affect the harmonics differently; and other factors.

The attack, sustain, and decay are much too complex to be accurately
reproduced by simple volume control.



Accepted, no _simple_ volume control would do. The overtones and the 
noise would have to be properly simulated too. It's just a matter of how 
much effort you want to put into it.


But I think that we can agree that he is not asking for something even 
close to what you'd tolerate.

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Henrik Andersson wrote:

>> ... and volume controls wouldn't be able to emulate different attacks.
>
> Yes they could. Who is to say that you can't make the control change based
> on the frequency?

Of course you could base the volume control based on the frequency.
You could emulate louder notes, but I'm not talking about a
good-enough sound. I'm talking about a realistic piano sound.

There is much more that goes into the attack than volume, though.
There are overtones; noise (the hammer hitting the strings, for
example); the speed of the rise and fall, which vary by note, and
affect the harmonics differently; and other factors.

The attack, sustain, and decay are much too complex to be accurately
reproduced by simple volume control.

Henrick, I respect your coding ability, but take into account that I
am an active symphony performer with a master's in music and years of
experience with synthesizing sound. My remarks are based on acoustical
physics, not a casual knowledge of music.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Glen Pike]

I think he was referring to velocity rather than frequency - velocity 
would be difficult from a computer keyboard - you just get on or off.


If you were to change the attack and decay based on frequency, 
essentially, you could cheat and "pre-apply" the ADSR to a waveform 
unless you needed to calculate this, but most samples of a piano would 
have this anyway.


On 08/02/2011 17:14, Henrik Andersson wrote:

Kerry Thompson skriver:

... and volume controls wouldn't be able to emulate different attacks.


Yes they could. Who is to say that you can't make the control change 
based on the frequency?

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Henrik Andersson]

Kerry Thompson skriver:

... and volume controls wouldn't be able to emulate different attacks.


Yes they could. Who is to say that you can't make the control change 
based on the frequency?

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Jason Merrill wrote:

> I wonder how much of that you could realistically control using volume 
> settings in Actionscript on the sound?  Not realistic enough?
-

Probably realistic enough for the OP. He said he didn't need the
realism. 88 keys is 7+ octaves--I'm betting one sample from each
octave would be realistic enough. I would go with .wav or .aiff,
though, rather than mp3, because it starts much more quickly.

It wouldn't be enough for a realistic piano sound, though. A note
typically has 3 parts: the attack, the sustain, and the decay. High
notes have a much shorter attack and delay then low notes, as well as
different overtones. Loud notes have a very distinctive attack, and
volume controls wouldn't be able to emulate different attacks.

I think the wave-form generators mentioned are well worth looking
into--they're probably just reverse Fourier transforms. It involves a
bit more coding, but you can get a pretty realistic piano sound using
them.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Glen Pike]

I think they are, but you could substitute your generated waveform for 
sound data from a file - the hack the system used relied on loading in a 
single mp3 then "injecting" sound data into it...


Glen

On 08/02/2011 16:18, tom rhodes wrote:

interesting i thought those examples were generating a waveform? did that
ever get packaged as a library? i remember it from a few years back but
haven't looked since...


On 8 February 2011 17:03, Glen Pike  wrote:


At this point, you might want to take advantage of one of the "synth"
libraries of AS3 and use the mp3 files as your wave-table then add your
filters&  envelope generators just like a normal sample-based synth.

Probably overkill for an online distraction, but if you are going for
quality / realism, then worth considering.  Have a look at some of Andre
Michelle's examples or see if you can find the Flashcodersbrighton
experiments with as3 synths if you are interested.




On 08/02/2011 15:35, tom rhodes wrote:


multisampled pianos are available without having to record it all
yourself!

you'd still have to be loading a hell of a lot of wavs for it to sound
half
decent though, and probably code up something to handle the release of the
keys properly...


On 8 February 2011 16:27, Kerry Thompson   wrote:

  Jason Merrill wrote:


  I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples
from the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty
easy
(albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK
mic
(even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer.
Then
you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes
  -
being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.
  Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make
money.
--

You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a
different timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a
library to be really valuable, you would need to have different
attacks at different volume levels.

At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't
play true legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack
would do well for legato.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[tom rhodes]

interesting i thought those examples were generating a waveform? did that
ever get packaged as a library? i remember it from a few years back but
haven't looked since...


On 8 February 2011 17:03, Glen Pike  wrote:

> At this point, you might want to take advantage of one of the "synth"
> libraries of AS3 and use the mp3 files as your wave-table then add your
> filters & envelope generators just like a normal sample-based synth.
>
> Probably overkill for an online distraction, but if you are going for
> quality / realism, then worth considering.  Have a look at some of Andre
> Michelle's examples or see if you can find the Flashcodersbrighton
> experiments with as3 synths if you are interested.
>
>
>
>
> On 08/02/2011 15:35, tom rhodes wrote:
>
>> multisampled pianos are available without having to record it all
>> yourself!
>>
>> you'd still have to be loading a hell of a lot of wavs for it to sound
>> half
>> decent though, and probably code up something to handle the release of the
>> keys properly...
>>
>>
>> On 8 February 2011 16:27, Kerry Thompson  wrote:
>>
>>  Jason Merrill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples

>>> from the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty
>>> easy
>>> (albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK
>>> mic
>>> (even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer.
>>> Then
>>> you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes
>>>  -
>>> being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.
>>>  Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make
>>> money.
>>> --
>>>
>>> You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a
>>> different timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a
>>> library to be really valuable, you would need to have different
>>> attacks at different volume levels.
>>>
>>> At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't
>>> play true legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack
>>> would do well for legato.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Kerry Thompson
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Glen Pike]

At this point, you might want to take advantage of one of the "synth" 
libraries of AS3 and use the mp3 files as your wave-table then add your 
filters & envelope generators just like a normal sample-based synth.


Probably overkill for an online distraction, but if you are going for 
quality / realism, then worth considering.  Have a look at some of Andre 
Michelle's examples or see if you can find the Flashcodersbrighton 
experiments with as3 synths if you are interested.




On 08/02/2011 15:35, tom rhodes wrote:

multisampled pianos are available without having to record it all yourself!

you'd still have to be loading a hell of a lot of wavs for it to sound half
decent though, and probably code up something to handle the release of the
keys properly...


On 8 February 2011 16:27, Kerry Thompson  wrote:


Jason Merrill wrote:



I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples

from the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty easy
(albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK mic
(even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer. Then
you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes  -
being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.
  Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make
money.
--

You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a
different timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a
library to be really valuable, you would need to have different
attacks at different volume levels.

At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't
play true legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack
would do well for legato.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[tom rhodes]

not realistic enough no, but the OP did say it could be simple and not have
to be too accurate. in which case multisampling each note would be overkill.
i'd look for piano samples online (there will be oodles) and start messing
with them and if it sounds ok to you then go with it...


On 8 February 2011 16:31, Merrill, Jason wrote:

> I wonder how much of that you could realistically control using volume
> settings in Actionscript on the sound?  Not realistic enough?
>
>  Jason Merrill
>  Instructional Technology Architect
>  Bank of America  Global Learning
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com [mailto:
> flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:27 AM
> To: Flash Coders List
> Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale
>
> Jason Merrill wrote:
>
>
> > I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples
> from the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty easy
> (albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK mic
> (even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer. Then
> you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes  -
> being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.
>  Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make
> money.
> --
>
> You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a
> different timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a library to
> be really valuable, you would need to have different attacks at different
> volume levels.
>
> At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't play
> true legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack would do
> well for legato.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Kerry Thompson
>
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[tom rhodes]

multisampled pianos are available without having to record it all yourself!

you'd still have to be loading a hell of a lot of wavs for it to sound half
decent though, and probably code up something to handle the release of the
keys properly...


On 8 February 2011 16:27, Kerry Thompson  wrote:

> Jason Merrill wrote:
>
>
> > I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples
> from the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty easy
> (albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK mic
> (even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer. Then
> you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes  -
> being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.
>  Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make
> money.
> --
>
> You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a
> different timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a
> library to be really valuable, you would need to have different
> attacks at different volume levels.
>
> At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't
> play true legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack
> would do well for legato.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Kerry Thompson
>
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RE: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Merrill, Jason]

I wonder how much of that you could realistically control using volume settings 
in Actionscript on the sound?  Not realistic enough?

 Jason Merrill
 Instructional Technology Architect
 Bank of America  Global Learning 





___


-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Kerry Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:27 AM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

Jason Merrill wrote:


> I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples from 
> the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty easy 
> (albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK mic 
> (even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer. Then 
> you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes  - 
> being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.  
> Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make money.
--

You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a different 
timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a library to be really 
valuable, you would need to have different attacks at different volume levels.

At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't play true 
legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack would do well for 
legato.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Jason Merrill wrote:


> I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples from 
> the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty easy 
> (albeit somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK mic 
> (even one from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer. Then 
> you'd have a library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes  - 
> being they would be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.  
> Heck, you could sell the library online for some small bucks and make money.
--

You could go further than recording all 88 notes. A soft note has a
different timbre, attack, and decay from a loud note. For such a
library to be really valuable, you would need to have different
attacks at different volume levels.

At least you don't have to worry about legato, since a piano can't
play true legato like a violin or French Horn. A non-accented attack
would do well for legato.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

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RE: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Merrill, Jason]

>> This doesn't have to be a particularly accurate thing - I just want it to 
>> sound something like a piano.

I was going to say something similar to what Kerry said - taking samples from 
the real world as separate MP3 files.  It would seem to be pretty easy (albeit 
somewhat time consuming) to do that if you had a moderately OK mic (even one 
from Best Buy) and access to a piano or even a synthesizer. Then you'd have a 
library to work from.  You could preload all possible notes  - being they would 
be quite small files individually, wouldn't be too bad.  Heck, you could sell 
the library online for some small bucks and make money.

 Jason Merrill
 Instructional Technology Architect
 Bank of America  Global Learning 





___

-Original Message-
From: flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com 
[mailto:flashcoders-boun...@chattyfig.figleaf.com] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 6:41 PM
To: Flash Coders List
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

Thanks guys.

This doesn't have to be a particularly accurate thing - I just want it to sound 
something like a piano.
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Henrik Andersson]

Kerry Thompson skriver:


I would use midi, then. Midi capabilities are pretty much universal
these days, and you'll need a lot smaller download. Plus, mp3's have a
lag on startup--not bad, but it gets annoying pretty quickly. Midi
won't have that problem.



Except for the tiny detail that Flash doesn't do MIDI.
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Paul Andrews wrote:

> Thanks guys.
>
> This doesn't have to be a particularly accurate thing - I just want it to
> sound something like a piano.

I would use midi, then. Midi capabilities are pretty much universal
these days, and you'll need a lot smaller download. Plus, mp3's have a
lag on startup--not bad, but it gets annoying pretty quickly. Midi
won't have that problem.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Latcho]

free 52 and 68 notes pack


(on top of the the 1st sample pack page you can download as pack)

http://www.freesound.org/packsViewSingle.php?id=621&start=0

http://www.freesound.org/packsViewSingle.php?id=2489

enjoy,
Latcho


On 2/8/2011 12:40 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:

Thanks guys.

This doesn't have to be a particularly accurate thing - I just want it 
to sound something like a piano.

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Paul Andrews]

Thanks guys.

This doesn't have to be a particularly accurate thing - I just want it 
to sound something like a piano.

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Henrik Andersson wrote:


> I'd try the classical software synth approach. Pianos are pretty close to
> sine waves with an envelope filter controlling the amplitude and some reverb
> I've read.

It depends on how accurate Paul wants to be. The higher you go on the
piano keyboard, the closer you get to a pure sin wave. The mid-range
and lower notes are very rich in overtones.

Plus, there are three strings for each note through most of the
register, and a good piano tuner will put one string slightly out of
tune to give a richer sound. It's the same effect as with a violin
section. 28 violins don't sound like a violin 28x louder. The slight
differences in intonation, even in the world's best symphonies, is
what gives the section a richer sound.

I actually am a musician--I play principal French Horn for the Boston
Civic Symphony, and have a master's in music from a pretty good
university (Michigan).

There is a good online music notation program that does anice job of
simulating the piano sound in code, and it's written in AS3 (Flex, I
believe). Check out . I don't know
how willing they would be to share trade secrets, but Joe Berkovitz
might be willing to point you in the right direction.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Karl DeSaulniers]

This might help...

http://www.vibrationdata.com/piano.htm

Did a google for "music notes mp3"

Karl

On Feb 7, 2011, at 4:35 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote:


Paul Andrews wrote:

I'd like to make a piano keyboard, but trying to find a set of  
notes in MP3
format is leading to website link hell. Anyone know of any  
downloads for the

individual notes?


I don't know of any, Paul. I did a similar project, and we took
samples of all 88 keys. The timbre varies so much from octave to
octave, we had to use all 88 samples.

Maybe one of the musical geniuses on the list knows. In the meantime,
I'll ask some of my musician/computer friends.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Henrik Andersson]

Kerry Thompson skriver:

Maybe one of the musical geniuses on the list knows. In the meantime,
I'll ask some of my musician/computer friends.



I'd try the classical software synth approach. Pianos are pretty close 
to sine waves with an envelope filter controlling the amplitude and some 
reverb I've read.

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Re: [Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Kerry Thompson]

Paul Andrews wrote:

> I'd like to make a piano keyboard, but trying to find a set of notes in MP3
> format is leading to website link hell. Anyone know of any downloads for the
> individual notes?

I don't know of any, Paul. I did a similar project, and we took
samples of all 88 keys. The timbre varies so much from octave to
octave, we had to use all 88 samples.

Maybe one of the musical geniuses on the list knows. In the meantime,
I'll ask some of my musician/computer friends.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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[Flashcoders] OTish MP3 files for a piano scale

[Paul Andrews]

I'd like to make a piano keyboard, but trying to find a set of notes in 
MP3 format is leading to website link hell. Anyone know of any downloads 
for the individual notes?

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