Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
loved this post and think it will be a great discussion if some of the heavy hitters on this list get involved Unity is an amazing piece of tech and will be a big player in the future (anyone who doesn't believe should spend an hour with cartoon network's www.fusionfall.com) Adobe has established itself as the de facto supplier of creative apps but just like Quark did in print, it is definitely in danger of walling itself into it's own garden and simply becoming irrelevant. It made a brilliant strategic move (for itself, if not for the consumer) in buying macromedia but doing so hasn't guaranteed it's future and I think it should be looking for ways of being relevant on all platforms, despite the platform holder's reservations. What you have suggested for flash as a separate app in it's own right (being launched by the browser, maybe on a click on a flash icon, much like youtube is right now) would seem to be a brilliant idea. Flash is a bit of a processor hog but without the encumbrance of the browser as well, it could work really well on the iphone and not be too much of a drain. Apple's main problem with flash, as with java, is that it won't allow other development platforms onto it's hardware. It maintains that this is for security reasons but I don't think that there is a dev out there that thinks it's anything other than to stop people circumventing apple's appstore for distribution. However, I think the argument that the web itself (as well as unity) could be seen as a platform and was certainly sold as such by apple originally as the iphone development environment before the appstore came along is much more valid. There can be no doubt that Apple will have to allow something of flash in the future but until apple and adobe stop squabbling like kids in a playground, that may be quite some way off, after the damage has been done a On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Romuald Quantin soundstep.mail...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, Not sure that's really the right place for it, but... I'm wondering what are your thoughts about that. Which Flash Developer has never had a struggle with Flash Player performance and garbage collection? I'm not surprised apple doesn't want flash on their iPhone because of performance issues. You can say not it is not true, it is because of their PDF renderer, and they have a flash player running on the iPhone in their lab, blah blah. But the Flash Player is a slow virtual machine, isn't that right? Even AIR applications are always kind of slow, not as quick and reactive as a desktop application should be, and this because of the Flash Player. Just resizing a window, select text or other simple action is not as reactive a real desktop application should be. When I see what the Unity3D player (and very lightweight in terms of file size) can render, WOW. Yes the Flash Platform has wonderful tool and framework to create applications, but how long before someone is coming all these tools (such as AIR, the Flex framework, layouts and components)? Maybe Unity? Maybe another? On the iPhone you can't see a Flash site or a Unity3D site, if I'm not wrong unity has created a tool to convert Unity application to iPhone application (not web-based then), but... where the hell is that Flash Player converter to create iPhone application from AS code? What is Adobe doing about that? How can 35 people from Unity can be more reactive than Adobe? Does Adobe have a problem with the Flash virtual machine? With today's computer, how can a virtual machine be that slow? And I'm not talking about web-based application that can limited by the browser, but also AIR application. Even if Flash will be here for a great bunch of years, I don't see a real good future unless they re-write a real new Virtual Machine that is taking all the power you can use from a computer. If I'm not wrong Flash is running on Google Android phone? Is it working well? You might say I'm completely wrong, fine, I dont know everything. I'm just asking questions. I'm just wondering what's going because I have to struggle about Flash Player performance. What do you think? If the Flash Player a great virtual machine or will it be overwhelmed by other technologies if Adobe does not react? Is there something I'm missing? Flash Community is a wonderful one, I'd like to think the Flash Platform will evolve. Romu ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
Maybe Adobe will make their own A-Phone. Research has shown that customers should have substantial space in their pocket once the money has been removed from their wallet to buy it. Naturally, to get the optimum feature set you will need to buy the whole A-Phone suite, A-SatNav, A-PhotoDevice, etc to get the best from the A-Phone, further slimming the wallet. On the downside you will require a pocket a foot square to put it all in.. ;-) - Original Message - From: allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com) alla...@gmail.com To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance loved this post and think it will be a great discussion if some of the heavy hitters on this list get involved Unity is an amazing piece of tech and will be a big player in the future (anyone who doesn't believe should spend an hour with cartoon network's www.fusionfall.com) Adobe has established itself as the de facto supplier of creative apps but just like Quark did in print, it is definitely in danger of walling itself into it's own garden and simply becoming irrelevant. It made a brilliant strategic move (for itself, if not for the consumer) in buying macromedia but doing so hasn't guaranteed it's future and I think it should be looking for ways of being relevant on all platforms, despite the platform holder's reservations. What you have suggested for flash as a separate app in it's own right (being launched by the browser, maybe on a click on a flash icon, much like youtube is right now) would seem to be a brilliant idea. Flash is a bit of a processor hog but without the encumbrance of the browser as well, it could work really well on the iphone and not be too much of a drain. Apple's main problem with flash, as with java, is that it won't allow other development platforms onto it's hardware. It maintains that this is for security reasons but I don't think that there is a dev out there that thinks it's anything other than to stop people circumventing apple's appstore for distribution. However, I think the argument that the web itself (as well as unity) could be seen as a platform and was certainly sold as such by apple originally as the iphone development environment before the appstore came along is much more valid. There can be no doubt that Apple will have to allow something of flash in the future but until apple and adobe stop squabbling like kids in a playground, that may be quite some way off, after the damage has been done a On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Romuald Quantin soundstep.mail...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, Not sure that's really the right place for it, but... I'm wondering what are your thoughts about that. Which Flash Developer has never had a struggle with Flash Player performance and garbage collection? I'm not surprised apple doesn't want flash on their iPhone because of performance issues. You can say not it is not true, it is because of their PDF renderer, and they have a flash player running on the iPhone in their lab, blah blah. But the Flash Player is a slow virtual machine, isn't that right? Even AIR applications are always kind of slow, not as quick and reactive as a desktop application should be, and this because of the Flash Player. Just resizing a window, select text or other simple action is not as reactive a real desktop application should be. When I see what the Unity3D player (and very lightweight in terms of file size) can render, WOW. Yes the Flash Platform has wonderful tool and framework to create applications, but how long before someone is coming all these tools (such as AIR, the Flex framework, layouts and components)? Maybe Unity? Maybe another? On the iPhone you can't see a Flash site or a Unity3D site, if I'm not wrong unity has created a tool to convert Unity application to iPhone application (not web-based then), but... where the hell is that Flash Player converter to create iPhone application from AS code? What is Adobe doing about that? How can 35 people from Unity can be more reactive than Adobe? Does Adobe have a problem with the Flash virtual machine? With today's computer, how can a virtual machine be that slow? And I'm not talking about web-based application that can limited by the browser, but also AIR application. Even if Flash will be here for a great bunch of years, I don't see a real good future unless they re-write a real new Virtual Machine that is taking all the power you can use from a computer. If I'm not wrong Flash is running on Google Android phone? Is it working well? You might say I'm completely wrong, fine, I dont know everything. I'm just asking questions. I'm just wondering what's going because I have to struggle about Flash Player performance. What do you think? If the Flash Player a great virtual machine or will it be overwhelmed by other technologies if Adobe does
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
Naturally, to get the optimum feature set you will need to buy the whole A-Phone suite, A-SatNav, A-PhotoDevice, etc to get the best from the A-Phone, further slimming the wallet. On the downside you will require a pocket a foot square to put it all in.. ;-) And another pocket a foot square for the hard disk needed to install all the common files... ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
Disk space will be the least of all issues. What you say about Quark is quite relevant. I would say it's already happening. I'd have never become a developer if it weren't for the actionscript 1.0 on-ramp. But after 9 years, I'm seriously considering a move to full time Unity development. There's no reason at all that Unity can't experience the same ubiquity as the flashplayer with a more seamless installer. Once macromedia started the built in upgrading with fp v6, new version adoption sped up dramatically. The recently released fp10 penetration numbers are impressive to say the least. More on point, the lack of flashplayer on iPhone is purely control and well within Apple's rights. I support lawful profit security. But it does not close the gate completely on porting actionscript/flex based apps to the iPhone. Just yesterday I was reading herehttp://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/2008/11/28/adobe-alchemy-is-it-actionscript-heresy/about C++ conversion. You all remember the Quake demo I'm sure. There's no secret agreement between Unity and Apple that I know of, Unity has simply created a great compiler for an already supported language. I think it's quite possible to create a similar tool for actionscript and flex. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Glen Pike g...@engineeredarts.co.ukwrote: Naturally, to get the optimum feature set you will need to buy the whole A-Phone suite, A-SatNav, A-PhotoDevice, etc to get the best from the A-Phone, further slimming the wallet. On the downside you will require a pocket a foot square to put it all in.. ;-) And another pocket a foot square for the hard disk needed to install all the common files... ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
Unity is pretty kick-ass, but Unity != Flash They serve two different purposes. Unity is a multiplatform game development tool, whereas Flash is more encompassing -- i.e. it is not strictly a gaming platform, in fact though it is used quite a bit for online games, that is not its main purpose. You can't build a website in Unity... therefore, the only real semi-contender to Flash is Silverlight, I really don't think Flash is in too much danger at the moment. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Joel Stransky stranskydes...@gmail.com wrote: Disk space will be the least of all issues. What you say about Quark is quite relevant. I would say it's already happening. I'd have never become a developer if it weren't for the actionscript 1.0 on-ramp. But after 9 years, I'm seriously considering a move to full time Unity development. There's no reason at all that Unity can't experience the same ubiquity as the flashplayer with a more seamless installer. Once macromedia started the built in upgrading with fp v6, new version adoption sped up dramatically. The recently released fp10 penetration numbers are impressive to say the least. More on point, the lack of flashplayer on iPhone is purely control and well within Apple's rights. I support lawful profit security. But it does not close the gate completely on porting actionscript/flex based apps to the iPhone. Just yesterday I was reading herehttp://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/2008/11/28/adobe-alchemy-is-it-actionscript-heresy/about C++ conversion. You all remember the Quake demo I'm sure. There's no secret agreement between Unity and Apple that I know of, Unity has simply created a great compiler for an already supported language. I think it's quite possible to create a similar tool for actionscript and flex. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Glen Pike g...@engineeredarts.co.ukwrote: Naturally, to get the optimum feature set you will need to buy the whole A-Phone suite, A-SatNav, A-PhotoDevice, etc to get the best from the A-Phone, further slimming the wallet. On the downside you will require a pocket a foot square to put it all in.. ;-) And another pocket a foot square for the hard disk needed to install all the common files... ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
I'm not suggesting Unity is a replacement for flash so much as that it's worth having a viable market. I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Taka Kojima t...@gigafied.com wrote: Unity is pretty kick-ass, but Unity != Flash They serve two different purposes. Unity is a multiplatform game development tool, whereas Flash is more encompassing -- i.e. it is not strictly a gaming platform, in fact though it is used quite a bit for online games, that is not its main purpose. You can't build a website in Unity... therefore, the only real semi-contender to Flash is Silverlight, I really don't think Flash is in too much danger at the moment. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Joel Stransky stranskydes...@gmail.com wrote: Disk space will be the least of all issues. What you say about Quark is quite relevant. I would say it's already happening. I'd have never become a developer if it weren't for the actionscript 1.0 on-ramp. But after 9 years, I'm seriously considering a move to full time Unity development. There's no reason at all that Unity can't experience the same ubiquity as the flashplayer with a more seamless installer. Once macromedia started the built in upgrading with fp v6, new version adoption sped up dramatically. The recently released fp10 penetration numbers are impressive to say the least. More on point, the lack of flashplayer on iPhone is purely control and well within Apple's rights. I support lawful profit security. But it does not close the gate completely on porting actionscript/flex based apps to the iPhone. Just yesterday I was reading here http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/2008/11/28/adobe-alchemy-is-it-actionscript-heresy/ about C++ conversion. You all remember the Quake demo I'm sure. There's no secret agreement between Unity and Apple that I know of, Unity has simply created a great compiler for an already supported language. I think it's quite possible to create a similar tool for actionscript and flex. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Glen Pike g...@engineeredarts.co.uk wrote: Naturally, to get the optimum feature set you will need to buy the whole A-Phone suite, A-SatNav, A-PhotoDevice, etc to get the best from the A-Phone, further slimming the wallet. On the downside you will require a pocket a foot square to put it all in.. ;-) And another pocket a foot square for the hard disk needed to install all the common files... ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
quote Unity is a multiplatform game development tool /quote Banner ads, really?? I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. That to me sounds like cramming a banner ad into the Quake engine. One of the reasons Flash became so popular was because of its small filesize. The Unity plugin is about 11mb, flash plugin (fp10) is around 1.5mb. I'm not surprised apple doesn't want flash on their iPhone because of performance issues. But the Flash Player is a slow virtual machine, isn't that right? I'd say for a 1.5mb plugin its damn fast and it gets better with every version. Yes the Flash Platform has wonderful tool and framework to create applications, but how long before someone is coming all these tools (such as AIR, the Flex framework, layouts and components)? Maybe Unity? Maybe another? People have been saying this for years now, still have to see it happen. Silverlight anyone?? Even if Flash will be here for a great bunch of years, I don't see a real good future unless they re-write a real new Virtual Machine that is taking all the power you can use from a computer. At what cost? I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with Adobe not being able to write a decent VM. Meaning, I'm sure they're capable of doing so, but at what cost? Well, for one, filesize comes to mind again. Is there a market for Unity 3D? I'm sure there is and their demo site shows that as well. Does this affect Adobe/Flash? I seriously doubt it. As Taka pointed out: Unity is pretty kick-ass, but Unity != Flash One is a game development platform, the other a rich (internet) application platform. regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: Joel Stransky stranskydes...@gmail.com To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance I'm not suggesting Unity is a replacement for flash so much as that it's worth having a viable market. I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Taka Kojima t...@gigafied.com wrote: ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
Banner ads, really?? Yeah banner ads. Or whatever the case may be. I don't just shell out flash on a whim, only if it's the only platform that can achieve my clients needs. We've always wanted a good 3d solution and even Anark guys are moving over to Unity. Just saying it'd be nice to have that option should the need arise. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Muzak p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: quote Unity is a multiplatform game development tool /quote Banner ads, really?? I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. That to me sounds like cramming a banner ad into the Quake engine. One of the reasons Flash became so popular was because of its small filesize. The Unity plugin is about 11mb, flash plugin (fp10) is around 1.5mb. I'm not surprised apple doesn't want flash on their iPhone because of performance issues. But the Flash Player is a slow virtual machine, isn't that right? I'd say for a 1.5mb plugin its damn fast and it gets better with every version. Yes the Flash Platform has wonderful tool and framework to create applications, but how long before someone is coming all these tools (such as AIR, the Flex framework, layouts and components)? Maybe Unity? Maybe another? People have been saying this for years now, still have to see it happen. Silverlight anyone?? Even if Flash will be here for a great bunch of years, I don't see a real good future unless they re-write a real new Virtual Machine that is taking all the power you can use from a computer. At what cost? I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with Adobe not being able to write a decent VM. Meaning, I'm sure they're capable of doing so, but at what cost? Well, for one, filesize comes to mind again. Is there a market for Unity 3D? I'm sure there is and their demo site shows that as well. Does this affect Adobe/Flash? I seriously doubt it. As Taka pointed out: Unity is pretty kick-ass, but Unity != Flash One is a game development platform, the other a rich (internet) application platform. regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: Joel Stransky stranskydes...@gmail.com To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance I'm not suggesting Unity is a replacement for flash so much as that it's worth having a viable market. I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Taka Kojima t...@gigafied.com wrote: ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance
Well, banner ads usually have a 50 k cap size limit, rich media usually caps it at around 150-200k, I don't think you can even accomplish what you want to accomplish with Unity within that size limit anyways. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Joel Stransky stranskydes...@gmail.com wrote: Banner ads, really?? Yeah banner ads. Or whatever the case may be. I don't just shell out flash on a whim, only if it's the only platform that can achieve my clients needs. We've always wanted a good 3d solution and even Anark guys are moving over to Unity. Just saying it'd be nice to have that option should the need arise. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Muzak p.ginnebe...@telenet.be wrote: quote Unity is a multiplatform game development tool /quote Banner ads, really?? I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. That to me sounds like cramming a banner ad into the Quake engine. One of the reasons Flash became so popular was because of its small filesize. The Unity plugin is about 11mb, flash plugin (fp10) is around 1.5mb. I'm not surprised apple doesn't want flash on their iPhone because of performance issues. But the Flash Player is a slow virtual machine, isn't that right? I'd say for a 1.5mb plugin its damn fast and it gets better with every version. Yes the Flash Platform has wonderful tool and framework to create applications, but how long before someone is coming all these tools (such as AIR, the Flex framework, layouts and components)? Maybe Unity? Maybe another? People have been saying this for years now, still have to see it happen. Silverlight anyone?? Even if Flash will be here for a great bunch of years, I don't see a real good future unless they re-write a real new Virtual Machine that is taking all the power you can use from a computer. At what cost? I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with Adobe not being able to write a decent VM. Meaning, I'm sure they're capable of doing so, but at what cost? Well, for one, filesize comes to mind again. Is there a market for Unity 3D? I'm sure there is and their demo site shows that as well. Does this affect Adobe/Flash? I seriously doubt it. As Taka pointed out: Unity is pretty kick-ass, but Unity != Flash One is a game development platform, the other a rich (internet) application platform. regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: Joel Stransky stranskydes...@gmail.com To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] Flash Future - Unity3D, iPhone and performance I'm not suggesting Unity is a replacement for flash so much as that it's worth having a viable market. I'd like to be able to tell a client some day who has a banner campaign only capable in Unity that it has a large enough install base. On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Taka Kojima t...@gigafied.com wrote: ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- --Joel Stransky stranskydesign.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
