[Flightgear-devel] Approach ATC ideas: usin g real SID/STARs in FlightGear?
Hi, now i'm working on Approach Control (ATC). There is some old, dead (not working) code in approach.cxx. I made it working last week, but there are a lot of bugs. So, maybe i'll rewrite this part of FG. And wanted to disscuss about some new features and ideas. In real life, pilots (and ATC) uses terminal procedures of each airport when approaching or departing. Example for KSFO: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KSFO#terminalprocedures What about adding real SID/STAR procedures to FG? This will make flying and communicating with ATC in FG more realistic. But there are three problems (as i understand this): 1. Where to find the database of SID/STAR of *all* airports? 2. Database will be large. So we will have another big file in FG distibutive, such as nav.dat.gz, awy.dat.gz, etc. This means that FG will get more time to start and will use more memory (?). 3. Copyrights and law. Is it ok to use this type of data in FG? Won't we have law problems with other authors? Ok, i tried to find some info about this. There's an interesting site http://aviationtoolbox.org/ . It includes SID/STAR and lot of other interesting information. But only USA. Maybe then we will find other world ? Here is some interesting data, dated December 2006 and January 2007: http://aviationtoolbox.org/old/ATA-100/ It's great that there are description of data formats and all data is in plain text, so we can parse it very easy! And convert to other formats we need. But is it ok to use this data? And what about other problems (such as big size, other countries and copyrights)? Best, Daniyar - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] FGCOM: how to go on?
Csaba, On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 04:34:46PM +0100, Csaba Hal?sz wrote: On Jan 29, 2008 8:48 AM, Holger Wirtz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a nearly stable iaxc version 2 available which has some advantages (for VoIP, not necessarily for the usage with FG). The build system is now based on autotools which makes it complexer for me (I have no idea about autotools). But for further features it maybe not bad to use iaxc version 2 as a base for fgcom. However the current patches must be ported. I have messed a little with iaxc2. As speex and portaudio are no longer bundled I have hacked it to build without them as well. Speex is a really good open source codec but when using LoFi filters you get problems with every crunching codec. So using fgcom without spees might not be a problem. Perhaps GSM may also only used without LoFi (when the LoFi code is ready). I have used ./configure --disable-shared --enable-local-gsm --without-video and apparently got a working fgcom. Note: iaxclient2 does not compile with speex svn, as it uses some internal structure it is not supposed to.. As I said... speex will become problems the next month :-) Looks like iaxclient developers are dropping all audio drivers and relying on portaudio exclusively so probably they wouldn't be interested in an openal driver that in its current form isn't even usable for general VOIP. Getting it into portaudio would mean extra work. I'd rather add support to iaxclient for user-supplied external audio drivers (all the pieces are there really). This would be a useful general feature, so could be included in iaxclient upstream (same holds for the configure changes). That's great. I currently haven't took a look at it and I really hadn't in mind to rush you to port openal to iaxc2... It would also open some further possibilities, such as text-to-speech or pre-recorded messages. Drawback is, we would lose the portaudio driver. I don't know if Tat used that or openal on Mac, and no idea if any windows users managed to get fgcom running at all. I had in mind that the iaxc developers said they will be comptable to Linux, OSX and Win. So I hope this will be the same for iaxc2. I will set up a new branch for iaxc2 and will as Tat if he can check this. And now something else: Holger, can you look at the alarm_handler function? The new call initiated for the Send our coords to the server block seems to cause segfault with both iaxc v1 and iaxc v2, for other users as well. Argh! Fixed it with an #ifdef around... I need this some time for sending the postition of the client via IAX2. The future conference app should use this for distance calculation... Thanks a lot for your work! I will write some lines if the new branch is available. Regards, Holger -- Csaba/Jester Index: configure.ac === --- configure.ac (revision 1336) +++ configure.ac (working copy) @@ -143,6 +143,21 @@ [Theora support])],, with_theora=auto) +AC_ARG_WITH(openal, + [AS_HELP_STRING([--without-openal], + [OpenAl support])],, + with_openal=auto) + +AC_ARG_WITH(portaudio, + [AS_HELP_STRING([--without-portaudio], + [PortAudio support])],, + with_portaudio=auto) + +AC_ARG_WITH(speex, + [AS_HELP_STRING([--without-speex], + [Speex support])],, + with_speex=auto) + AC_ARG_WITH(vidcap, [AS_HELP_STRING([--without-vidcap], [libvidcap support])],, @@ -194,11 +209,21 @@ AC_SUBST(OSTYPE) -PKG_CHECK_MODULES(PORTAUDIO, [portaudio-2.0 = 19],,AC_MSG_ERROR([ - portaudio is required to build this package! - please see http://www.portaudio.com/ for how to - obtain a copy. -])) +has_portaudio=no +if test ! x$with_portaudio = xno; then +PKG_CHECK_MODULES(PORTAUDIO, [portaudio-2.0 = 19],has_portaudio=yes,has_portaudio=no) +if test x$has_portaudio = xyes; then + AC_DEFINE(AUDIO_PORTAUDIO, 1, [PORTAUDIO]) + PKG_REQUIRES=$PKG_REQUIRES portaudio +elif test ! x$with_portaudio = xauto ; then + AC_MSG_ERROR([ + portaudio is required to build this package! + please see http://www.portaudio.com/ for how to + obtain a copy. + ]) +fi +fi +AM_CONDITIONAL(PORTAUDIO, test x$has_portaudio = xyes) has_gsm=no if test x$enable_local_gsm = xyes; then @@ -215,7 +240,7 @@ has_ogg=no if test ! x$with_ogg = xno; then -PKG_CHECK_MODULES(OGG, [ogg = 1.1.3],has_ogg=yes) +PKG_CHECK_MODULES(OGG, [ogg = 1.1.3],has_ogg=yes,has_ogg=no) if test x$has_ogg = xyes; then AC_DEFINE(USE_OGG, 1, [OGG]) PKG_REQUIRES=$PKG_REQUIRES ogg @@ -228,16 +253,26 @@ fi fi AM_CONDITIONAL(OGG, test x$has_ogg = xyes) - -PKG_CHECK_MODULES(SPEEX, [speex = 1.2],,AC_MSG_ERROR([ - speex is required to build this package! - please see http://www.xiph.org/ for how to - obtain a copy. -])) +has_speex=no +if test !
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Approach ATC ideas: using real SID/STARs in FlightGear?
In real life, pilots (and ATC) uses terminal procedures of each airport when approaching or departing. Example for KSFO: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KSFO#terminalprocedures What about adding real SID/STAR procedures to FG? This will make flying and communicating with ATC in FG more realistic. Not necessarily. When there is a radar service - and most airports I know do have a radar service - there are published procedures but they are usually not used because the approach controller guides you to the final approach by assigning the pilot individual headings, so called radar vectors. But there are three problems (as i understand this): 1. Where to find the database of SID/STAR of *all* airports? They are published in the AIP of the airports country. You can find the relevant AIP for europe at http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/ and they change every now and then. 2. Database will be large. So we will have another big file in FG distibutive, such as nav.dat.gz, awy.dat.gz, etc. This means that FG will get more time to start and will use more memory (?). Yes it will be large. It should be an optional feature to load. 3. Copyrights and law. Is it ok to use this type of data in FG? Won't we have law problems with other authors? EUROCONTROL says on their site: quote Reproduction is authorised for personal use only provided the source is duly acknowledged. All other uses are prohibited. /quote I think it could be a cool feature but your biggest problem would be collecting the data and copyright issues. Greeting, Torsten - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Approach ATC ideas: using real SID/STARs in FlightGear?
hi all, Torsten Dreyer a écrit : In real life, pilots (and ATC) uses terminal procedures of each airport when approaching or departing. Example for KSFO: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KSFO#terminalprocedures What about adding real SID/STAR procedures to FG? This will make flying and communicating with ATC in FG more realistic. Not necessarily. When there is a radar service - and most airports I know do have a radar service - there are published procedures but they are usually not used because the approach controller guides you to the final approach by assigning the pilot individual headings, so called radar vectors. But there are three problems (as i understand this): 1. Where to find the database of SID/STAR of *all* airports? They are published in the AIP of the airports country. You can find the relevant AIP for europe at http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/ and they change every now and then. For a flightplan-like script I made, I use the ones for GoodWay Xplane (http://www.xpgoodway.com/), I asked for the use of these files to the devs of GoodWay and they accepted without any problem (including that my script is GPLed and intented (;)) to be used by anyone), you may contact them again to ask. Using them I found that they include some waypoints unknown by our own fix.dat, so I decided in my script just to ignore them. The syntax is similar to nav and fix.dat we already use. Some details have been explained by Alexis to me, but it is quite easy to understand. 2. Database will be large. So we will have another big file in FG distibutive, such as nav.dat.gz, awy.dat.gz, etc. This means that FG will get more time to start and will use more memory (?). Yes it will be large. It should be an optional feature to load. Indeed it is not so large, as many aiports are not included I think, but there are still many. 3. Copyrights and law. Is it ok to use this type of data in FG? Won't we have law problems with other authors? EUROCONTROL says on their site: quote Reproduction is authorised for personal use only provided the source is duly acknowledged. All other uses are prohibited. /quote The head of files I'm talking includes DAFIF data cycle 200509 build 40, Copyright © 2005 GoodWay team, Alexis Maizel (--masked email adress--). This data is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. [and so on...]. I think it could be a cool feature but your biggest problem would be collecting the data and copyright issues. Greeting, Torsten hope my solution could solve these problem and allow you to continue in your great idea. - direct link to the files: http://www.xpgoodway.com/modules.php?name=Downloadsd_op=getitlid=101 - my script (perl): http://seb.marque.free.fr/fichiers/scripts/perl/dev/plandevol-eng-dev best regards Seb - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Red Bull Air Race for FlightGear
Hi all, here is something that might kill your weekend. So if you promised your kids a great weekend at the zoo or wanted to paint your house: *** STOP READING *** But if you have some time to spare: go on! I have written some peaces of Nasal code and a little other stuff to make a the Air Race flyable in FlightGear. The pylons have been in the fgfsdb for a while and I thought it might be some fun to get scored for flying through them. You may find a short introduction and the required files to do the Berlin-Tempelhof AirRace from 2006 at http://www.t3r.de/fg/fgfs-rbar.html Expect to get addicted... Enjoy, Torsten BTW: Comments and/or bug-reports are welcome. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Quoting Heiko Schulz : I have to disagree. Look at Detelef's Albatross - you can walk inside the aircraft- it is very easy to do, so this depth perception would be a very cool feature against X-Plane and MSFS! Do you mean you are going to build a replica of the Albatross cabin, and put a LCD monitor where the windows should be ? If I understand this film correctly, the technique use the screen as a window to a wider ( open ) space ( the stadium in that case ). You have to actually *move* to have the perception of the parallax around a fixed frame. Look at the video : the guy doesn't stay seated in front of his TV set. For a static perception of 3D, use stereo images and dedicated goggles. -Fred -- Frédéric Bouvier http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/ Photo gallery - album photo http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/ FlightGear Scenery Designer - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
--- Frederic Bouvier [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Selon joe: Hi! Again me with a proposal! ;) Some time ago this video was quite popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw It shows a simple headtracking system which creates an impressive depth perception with a common flat screen. Since most cockpits of FGFS are real 3D, I am quite excited about if I think about being able to experience the cockpit in a perfect 3D depth perception by moving my head around. Don't miss the sequence at 3:35, showing a huge stadium (aka scenery ;)). I know it's a long way to this, but I just felt the urge to point you to it. Maybe in a couple of years the time has come to include something like this in fgfs. Regards, Joe This video is impressive. Thank for sharing. Head tracking has already been discussed on this list, though. The device in question was trackIR instead of the wiimote. Looking this video, the solution proposed doesn't seem to apply to a flight simulator. In a cockpit, you are seated in front of your yoke and you are not moving around. You look *from* a fixed position, you are not looking *at* a fixed position. So you need a device that can detect head rotations, and not head translations. Except if you want to provide user the experience of a passenger moving in the plane and looking at a single window ;-) -Fred -- Hi, I have to disagree. Look at Detelef's Albatross - you can walk inside the aircraft- it is very easy to do, so this depth perception would be a very cool feature against X-Plane and MSFS! Regards HHS still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? Versuchen Sie´s mit dem neuen Yahoo! Mail. www.yahoo.de/mail - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Approach ATC ideas: usin g real SID/STARs inFlightGear?
Thanks for your answers. hope my solution could solve these problem and allow you to continue in your great idea. Ah, great! - direct link to the files: http://www.xpgoodway.com/modules.php?name=Downloadsd_op=getitlid=101 - my script (perl): http://seb.marque.free.fr/fichiers/scripts/perl/dev/plandevol-eng-dev SID/STAR data looks pretty and easy to parse. Thank you. I'll try to use this data. So, the question about including this data in FG is open. Best, Daniyar - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Red Bull Air Race for FlightGear
--- Torsten Dreyer wrote: Hi all, here is something that might kill your weekend. So if you promised your kids a great weekend at the zoo or wanted to paint your house: *** STOP READING *** But if you have some time to spare: go on! I have written some peaces of Nasal code and a little other stuff to make a the Air Race flyable in FlightGear. The pylons have been in the fgfsdb for a while and I thought it might be some fun to get scored for flying through them. Marvellous! I've been thinking about adding this sort of feature for a while using the tutorial system, but your implementation looks a lot more advanced(though I have still to try it). It sounds like a perfect scenario for the G-force* black-out feature I've been working on. Rather than an aircraft-specific feature, this is a generic solution that will be part of the sim itself, with a dialog box allowing the feature to be switched on/off, and the level of G at which black-out (and red-out) begins to happen. As always, the aircraft config can over-ride the default settings to take into account G-suits, or the pilot being Kirby Chambliss. Its almost ready for CVS, and it makes quite a difference to how you fly - no more pulling 5-Gs continually in the pc7 or Pitts. Now what I need is to add some sensor to detect when the user tenses their legs to mitigate positive g :) -Stuart * Yes, I know it should be 'g' instead of 'G'. ___ Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
--- Frederic Bouvier [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Quoting Heiko Schulz : I have to disagree. Look at Detelef's Albatross - you can walk inside the aircraft- it is very easy to do, so this depth perception would be a very cool feature against X-Plane and MSFS! Do you mean you are going to build a replica of the Albatross cabin, and put a LCD monitor where the windows should be ? If I understand this film correctly, the technique use the screen as a window to a wider ( open ) space ( the stadium in that case ). You have to actually *move* to have the perception of the parallax around a fixed frame. Look at the video : the guy doesn't stay seated in front of his TV set. For a static perception of 3D, use stereo images and dedicated goggles. -Fred -- The albatross is bad example for that, but it is the first aircraft with this feature. But for John's 747-Cockpit-project it would be fit. Regards still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html Heute schon einen Blick in die Zukunft von E-Mails wagen? www.yahoo.de/mail - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] apt.dat runways, taxiways and atc
hi, i have reworked the apt.dat-loading code. everything works fine so far, but i have two questions: 1. we currently have runways and taxiways in one FGRunwayList. imho these are very different things. i'd like to make two separate lists. are the taxiways from apt.dat used at all? maybe for groundnetwork? what else should i take care of, so that nothing breaks? 2. as pietro has reported on jan. 20, default.tower and default.atis are outdated. it seems that we will get no new data in this format. i'd like to get the atc/atis frequencies direclty from apt.dat into the relevant structures in src/ATC. any objections? regards, -till - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
I think I have to emphasize this: There are two heads: Your real one in front of the monitor and the virtual one inside the planes cockpit (aka camera position). The idea is, to translate the virtual head according to the translations of your real head in front of your monitor, thus leading to the shown depth perception. Of course the virtual head can't follow every translation the real head can do, because usually a office is bigger than a cockpit. But its not to discover your cockpit from new exciting perspectives, it's to provide you a depth perception. So the virtual camera has strong constraints in the extend of its translation. Consider it as a maximum of 25 cm in each direction around the default position. So you won't be able to discover your leg room, to lean out of the window or to examine your flightsticks back! It should just use your head shaking to provide you a depth perception. Not more, not less. Regards, Joe -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Depth percepted cockpit
Hi Joacher, a very interesting and promising idea. Is the needed hardware available separately? If yes: how much does it cost? Maik [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am 01.02.2008 20:59: I think I have to emphasize this: There are two heads: Your real one in front of the monitor and the virtual one inside the planes cockpit (aka camera position). The idea is, to translate the virtual head according to the translations of your real head in front of your monitor, thus leading to the shown depth perception. Of course the virtual head can't follow every translation the real head can do, because usually a office is bigger than a cockpit. But its not to discover your cockpit from new exciting perspectives, it's to provide you a depth perception. So the virtual camera has strong constraints in the extend of its translation. Consider it as a maximum of 25 cm in each direction around the default position. So you won't be able to discover your leg room, to lean out of the window or to examine your flightsticks back! It should just use your head shaking to provide you a depth perception. Not more, not less. Regards, Joe - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Red Bull Air Race for FlightGear
Hi Torsten, Torsten Dreyer schrieb am 01.02.2008 17:49: Hi all, here is something that might kill your weekend. So if you promised your kids a great weekend at the zoo or wanted to paint your house: *** STOP READING *** But if you have some time to spare: go on! I have written some peaces of Nasal code and a little other stuff to make a the Air Race flyable in FlightGear. The pylons have been in the fgfsdb for a while and I thought it might be some fun to get scored for flying through them. You may find a short introduction and the required files to do the Berlin-Tempelhof AirRace from 2006 at http://www.t3r.de/fg/fgfs-rbar.html Expect to get addicted... Enjoy, Torsten BTW: Comments and/or bug-reports are welcome. Thank you very much for this work. Unfortunately I am not able to get it running. I can't see any pylon. I just want to know, if it works for someone else? Thanks Maik - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Intel Releases Programmers Refe rence Manual for the Intel® 965 Express Chipset Family a nd Intel® G35 Express Chipset Graphics Controller
http://intellinuxgraphics.org/index.html Thought this might be of interest to someone as there always seem to be a lot of people trying to run Flightgear for the first time on machines with Intel graphics. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] apt.dat runways, taxiways and atc
On Feb 1, 2008 8:31 PM, till busch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. we currently have runways and taxiways in one FGRunwayList. imho these are very different things. i'd like to make two separate lists. are the taxiways from apt.dat used at all? maybe for groundnetwork? what else should i take care of, so that nothing breaks? ATC ground radar will have to be updated too. -- Csaba/Jester - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
