date:20110217



Hi,
Technically, all these logos are under trademark:
http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/737-100/Models/Liveries/731CA.png;h=43cfc5a15abb392519e1f95d34951d410d3c3c80;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/737-100/Models/Liveries/731continw.png;h=2c7854e28f50ebfd270551fea6ee17c161ca56a6;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/747-400/Models/Liveries/KLM.png;h=fb5a5e15737ff7d45cb4b6c4ecae1c664221fd4c;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/767-300/Models/ACA.png;h=24cab3acc9be66ffa819d4b86b3d269d6c5c146d;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/767-300/Models/AFR.png;h=feb509950de44037ee2ffe72d99e803820f2078c;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/767-300/Models/ANZ.png;h=6ac933fa22c33e0f0b637c032cdc473108fee367;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/767-300/Models/AUA.png;h=6fa2d4d95c4e614bb67b
a3514a09d60b253e45d7;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/767-300/Models/BAW.png;h=c13d743667bf7de26df391ee1baf6627f012ae9b;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/767-300/Models/UAL.png;h=5c93dbbe501aa1a44adbaeac305e4a637ff8adec;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/777-200/Models/DAL-Livery.png;h=e516842b15c4cd8e42c3f20dd2bbd9e1cfcebb8e;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/777-200/Models/KLM.png;h=76ca78871b1b5cd58eb0533aefc91eb63b5e7149;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/ec135/Models/fuselage.adac.png;h=effa8b73133ad6991dc615ea670b5a3db58dcc0e;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/ec135/Models/fuselage.anwb.png;h=f4ca4abcc551aeca443ca68b06f60006ef84af12;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/ZivkoEdge/Models/Liveries/Fuse
lage-RedBull.png;h=4af09d1cb79a04528b824447190bc68e809ecceb;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/ZivkoEdge/Models/Liveries/WingTail-RedBull.png;h=592707498df5f8f923b2c9da1f3e9a68370ddd7e;hb=HEADhttp://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=blob;f=Aircraft/Zlin-50lx/Models/Liveries/red-bull.png;h=d60378d6af8635efc3f5b15a1345e2a810f65fcb;hb=HEAD
I can dish out links all day if I have to




I surprised that you mentioned ADAC and ANWB. Both are known that they won't 
give any problems.
Problem is more the Eurocopter-logo which I should better remove. 
I hope I find some time tomorrow to do that.


The problem is, Jack, and that's something it seems to me you didn't 
understand: 
The problem is really only the Red Bull logo, as they are known to make 
problems. If other sims use this logo, then only because Red Bull didn't 
discoverd it yet.
Mostly all other logos using in this sim are known not to be a problem. 


Cheers
Heiko



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simgear and OSG out of sync?

2011-02-17 Thread Tim Moore

I've committed one more fix that should make things right on 2.8.3.

Tim

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 8:16 PM, Tim Moore timoor...@gmail.com wrote:

 OK, I see that merely removing the 2.8.3 case from my conditional,
 which I checked in a couple of hours ago, isn't correct. I'll have
 another go.

 On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 7:10 PM, ThorstenB bre...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 15.02.2011 13:41, Tim Moore wrote:
  I've checked in fixes for this change in osgDB:DatabasePager to the
  SimGear and FlightGear next and releases/2.2.0 branches.
  Still doesn't compile with OSG = 2.8.5. We also need the patch that
  Bertrand sent yesterday, i.e. the #ifdef logic for the
  _readerWriterOptions attribute is still incorrect (inverted):
 
  diff --git a/simgear/scene/model/SGPagedLOD.hxx
 b/simgear/scene/model/SGPagedLOD.hxx
  index a9e55d9..4e25931 100644
  --- a/simgear/scene/model/SGPagedLOD.hxx
  +++ b/simgear/scene/model/SGPagedLOD.hxx
  @@ -72,7 +72,7 @@ public:
 
   protected:
   virtual ~SGPagedLOD();
  -#if SG_PAGEDLOD_HAS_OPTIONS
  +#if !SG_PAGEDLOD_HAS_OPTIONS
   osg::ref_ptrosgDB::ReaderWriter::Options  _readerWriterOptions;
   #endif
   };
 
   = Fixes the compile for any OSG version without
  SG_PAGEDLOD_HAS_OPTIONS support.
 
  By the way, I committed the changes to releases/2.2.0 and then merged
  that branch into next. This is the way fixes should move between the
  two branches. Please don't commit a fix to next and then cherry-pick
  it to the release branch. It is very messy to have the same change
  committed on several different branches.
 
  Hmm. On the other hand this means applying all (experimental) patches to
  the stable release/2.2 branch first.
  I'm not a git expert, but generally I like the opposite approach of
  applying patches to a project's experimental (master / next / ... )
  branch first. And only after the patch proved to be ok and stable for
  everyone, eventually move it to the stable release branch. Reduces the
  risk of (temporarily) breaking a release branch (like we did now :) ).
 Well, in this case I should have tested with 2.8.3, which I don't
 happen to have checked out. Anyway, we chose a simple branching model,
 http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/ , where fixup
 work done on the release branches is merged into the development
 branch. It is very messy to have a commit virtually checked in on
 several different branches. As there is no good reason for the
 development branch not to have all the commits made to the release,
 the commits should originate on the release branch and be merged into
 development.

 Now, you don't have to work this way locally, and in this case I
 didn't; I had next checked out, so hacked away on a fix and committed
 it locally. I then rebased that fix onto the release branch, tested
 (hah!), committed that and pushed it to gitorious. I then reset the
 next branch to blow away my commit at the head, merged in
 releases/2.2.0, and pushed that. You can use git rebase to get
 things in shape before committing to the master repo in the way I've
 described.

 Tim
 
  cheers,
  Thorsten
 
 
 
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[Flightgear-devel] Issue 252: Reflect shader broken

2011-02-17 Thread AJ MacLeod


 commit 83f7c1cd57dfbe8301fce93314ab5d2e7d685ad1
 Author: Frederic Bouvier
 Date:   Wed Feb 16 09:48:58 2011 +0100
Fix issue #252 
 http://code.google.com/p/flightgear-bugs/issues/detail?id=252 by Lauri 
 Peltonen

Thanks for that Lauri and Fred - for the first time in years the Lightning 
looks shiny once again on my own machine :-) (Nvidia GeForce 7300GS)

Cheers,

AJ
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Oliver Fels


First of all sorry for the reply format, I only have access to the weekly 
digest currently so response are a bit out of context. Will change this soon.

Heiko Schulz wrote:

Problem is more the Eurocopter-logo which I should better remove. 

Last year there was a high court decision in Germany regarding the trademarked 
logos of Opel (spark) and Mercedes (the well known star).
The court stated that a replica of an item can include trademarked logos if 
they integrally belong to the original item. This means that a Opel car replica 
is expected to have that spark logo as well as a Mercedes should have the star. 
A trademark holder can not enforce to exclude it nor can he claim licensing 
fees in the worst case.
So for the Eurocopter logo the same applies if it is placed on an Eurocopter 
helicopter replica. It would be different to place it on a Bell aircraft. 
Therefore I  believe we are on the safe side here.

As to airline liveries things are more in a grey area but pretty similar. You 
expect the LH livery to be on an Airbus A380, CRJ200, etc. So as long as it is 
realistic and placed on the right plane type I would not expect issues here as 
this is common appearance and noone would expect that the A320 in FSX or 
FlightGear is directly affiliated with Lufthansa. Putting a LH livery on a 
plane is replicating LHs core business.
Red Bull in turn is in a different core business and intensively merchandises 
its trademark for other businesses. So putting the logo on a can is prohibited 
as well as putting it on every other item as well as aircrafts, be it real or 
virtual unless stated otherwise.

However I am not sure what the issue would be if we realistically modeled a RB 
beverage can- maybe RB would pay for advertising  :)

Oliver

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011, syd adams wrote:

 Ok I tried to keep out of it ...;)
 The issue isn't your work , it's the concern over the Red Bull livery
  I haven't yet figured out why it's so important to include ,
 there must be many other paint schemes that could be added instead.
 I did 777 British Airways livery with some trepidation , and would
 remove it immediately if instructed to do so.
 What strikes me the most about these emails is your seemingly arrogant
 responses to an issue that some are concerned about: It's not about
 your great work , it's about Flightgear overall.
 That's just my 2 cents , I'll shut up now :)

I think the problem is that someone got on their high horse and started 
jerking him around.  If I were him, I'd get just as snotty about it - more 
so probably as I've got a much lower tolerance for that kind of nonsense.

Frankly, the inclusion of the livery is a tempest in a teapot.  The flight 
simulation community has been using commercial liveries without issue for 
well over a decade.  I've NEVER heard of anyone ever being sued by a 
rights holder over a livery and I've been around this hobby for a VERY 
long time.

There's entirely too much fear mongering going on and it really needs to 
stop.  It has no basis in reality.  Never has.  Frankly I think people are 
stirring shit up JUST to stir shit up.  If a rights holder contacts us 
about removing a livery, you and I (and whether they'll admit it or not, 
everyone else) knows that efforts to comply with that request will be very 
swift indeed.

It's not like FlightGear is a commercial product that is leveraging 
trademarked liveries in order to benefit from them.  Companies like 
Microsoft MUST license that kind of thing because they're selling a 
product.  (They also do it in order to prevent competing products from 
benefiting from brand identity - it's why Fly! and Fly! II had to call 
their Cessna 172 the Trainer 172.  MS couldn't beat them 
technologically, so they jerked them around by arranging exclusive 
licensing with Textron...but anyway)

Jack, I personally greatly enjoy the work you've put into that armed up 
fling wing of yours.  If people give you any crap about the textures, 
tell 'em to See Figure #1 and ignore 'em.  They're just a bunch of 
bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run in circles, 
screaming about crap that'll never happen.

g.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

 understand: The problem is really only the Red Bull logo, as they are 
 known to make problems. If other sims use this logo, then only because 
 Red Bull didn't discoverd it yet. Mostly all other logos using in this

Citation please.

g.

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by the clean end.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Alexander Barrett

 Heiko,

As I've said before, this simply isn't true! 
Red Bull are very accommodating, I've spoken to them before about this on a 
commercial product and they required no licensing agreement at all, simply an 
email from myself saying that we weren't marketing it as a Red Bull product, 
simply a product that had a Red Bull livery. 

In fact if anyone wants I'll dig out the old contact and see if they are still 
there and would be willing to make a statement about FG's use. I imagine it 
will be very similar, but responses don't come fast. 

Alex 
On 17 Feb 2011, at 10:13, Heiko Schulz wrote:
 
 The problem is really only the Red Bull logo, as they are known to make 
 problems. If other sims use this logo, then only because Red Bull didn't 
 discoverd it yet.
 Mostly all other logos using in this sim are known not to be a problem. 
 


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Oliver Fels


 I think the problem is that someone got on their high horse and started 
 jerking him around.  If I were him, I'd get just as snotty about it - more
 so probably as I've got a much lower tolerance for that kind of nonsense.
[...]
 stop.  It has no basis in reality.  Never has.  Frankly I think 
 people are stirring shit up JUST to stir shit up.  
[...]
 If people give you any crap about the textures, 
 tell 'em to See Figure #1 and ignore 'em.  They're just a bunch of 
 bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run in circles, 
 screaming about crap that'll never happen.

The funny thing is that this mail ended up in my spam folder and I believe it 
should remain there due to its offensive character.

You can´t just walk through your neighbors garden just because he is not at 
home, won´t see it and won´t complain about it.

If we are going in circles then the reason is that some people ignore all 
information and links provided and restart everything with give me evidence 
and then don´t care. Evidence *has* been provided that Red Bull is actively 
sueing folks using the logo for similar purposes, information *has* been 
provided that RB is seeking the web for copyright infringements and information 
*has* been provided that using the trademark without explicit grant is illegal. 
Why restart from scratch?

Simon already inquired RB and until then hold your breath and hope it goes 
well. Otherwise the state is pretty clear and we will have to take actions.

This is btw. another stupid effect of FlightProSim selling FlightGear- this 
makes it even worse and increases chances that FG will appear on RBs radar one 
day.

Oliver

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

For what it's worth, the RedBull logo is currently used in the scene model
database to decorate the redbull air race pylons. We also have two
aircraft in git that also have RedBull logos.

These are just the instances I found in a 2 second search because they had
redbull in the file name. There could easily be other uses of it in
places with different file names ... that would be a bit harder to find
without examining each image in our database individually.

I'm sure these known usages of the redbull logo are actively being scrubbed
right now??? If not, it sure makes all of this rhetoric sound pretty
hollow. Hmmm, I just did a git pull and they are still there. I guess no
one is moving too quickly on these existing infractions.

I don't mind a healthy debate, but so far this whole thing has smacked of
inconsistency at best (assuming the purest motives of everyone involved and
that no one is speaking out of anger or frustration here.)

Best regards,

Curt.

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Oliver Fels oliver.f...@gmx.net wrote:

I think the problem is that someone got on their high horse and started
jerking him around. If I were him, I'd get just as snotty about it -
more
so probably as I've got a much lower tolerance for that kind of nonsense.
[...]
stop. It has no basis in reality. Never has. Frankly I think
people are stirring shit up JUST to stir shit up.
[...]
If people give you any crap about the textures,
tell 'em to See Figure #1 and ignore 'em. They're just a bunch of
bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run in circles,
screaming about crap that'll never happen.

The funny thing is that this mail ended up in my spam folder and I believe
it should remain there due to its offensive character.

You can´t just walk through your neighbors garden just because he is not at
home, won´t see it and won´t complain about it.

If we are going in circles then the reason is that some people ignore all
information and links provided and restart everything with give me
evidence and then don´t care. Evidence *has* been provided that Red Bull
is actively sueing folks using the logo for similar purposes, information
*has* been provided that RB is seeking the web for copyright infringements
and information *has* been provided that using the trademark without
explicit grant is illegal. Why restart from scratch?

Simon already inquired RB and until then hold your breath and hope it goes
well. Otherwise the state is pretty clear and we will have to take actions.

This is btw. another stupid effect of FlightProSim selling FlightGear- this
makes it even worse and increases chances that FG will appear on RBs radar
one day.

Oliver

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request


On Thu, 17 Feb 2011, Oliver Fels wrote:



I think the problem is that someone got on their high horse and started 
jerking him around.  If I were him, I'd get just as snotty about it - more

so probably as I've got a much lower tolerance for that kind of nonsense.

[...]
stop.  It has no basis in reality.  Never has.  Frankly I think 
people are stirring shit up JUST to stir shit up. 

[...]
If people give you any crap about the textures, 
tell 'em to See Figure #1 and ignore 'em.  They're just a bunch of 
bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run in circles, 
screaming about crap that'll never happen.


The funny thing is that this mail ended up in my spam folder and I 
believe it should remain there due to its offensive character.



I'm sorry if reality offends your delicate sensibilities.

You can´t just walk through your neighbors garden just because he is not 
at home, won´t see it and won´t complain about it.



Nice strawman.  Physical tresspass != trademark infringment.

If we are going in circles then the reason is that some people ignore 
all information and links provided and restart everything with give me 
evidence and then don´t care. Evidence *has* been provided that Red 
Bull is actively sueing folks using the logo for similar purposes, 
information *has* been provided that RB is seeking the web for copyright 
infringements and information *has* been provided that using the 
trademark without explicit grant is illegal. Why restart from scratch?


I've never seen a link to a legal document that has shown RedBull to be 
actively engaging any entity or group over the use of their trademark logo 
in any open source project.  Put up or shut up.  Simple as that.


Simon already inquired RB and until then hold your breath and hope it 
goes well. Otherwise the state is pretty clear and we will have to take 
actions.


Until RedBull says in very clear language, Hey FlightGear!  We need you 
to remove all images that contain our trademark from your scenery  
aircraft databases! you need to stop getting your undies in a twist.


This is btw. another stupid effect of FlightProSim selling FlightGear- 
this makes it even worse and increases chances that FG will appear on 
RBs radar one day.


This doesn't have a damn thing to do with that and you know it.  I'd LOVE 
RedBull to chase after FPS!  I'm all for anything that'll turn dan freeman 
into a smoking hole in the ground.


Understand this - no company is going to go to the time and expenditure of 
a lawsuit of any kind when they know full well a simple letter will 
accomplish the same task.  It would be completely different if FlightGear 
was a commerical, for-profit project.  If THAT were the case, we'd deserve 
the suing we'd get.


g.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Reagan Thomas

On 2/17/2011 10:15 AM, Curtis Olson wrote:
 For what it's worth, the RedBull logo is currently used in the scene 
 model database to decorate the redbull air race pylons.  We also 
 have two aircraft in git that also have RedBull logos.

 These are just the instances I found in a 2 second search because they 
 had redbull in the file name.  There could easily be other uses of 
 it in places with different file names ... that would be a bit harder 
 to find without examining each image in our database individually.

 I'm sure these known usages of the redbull logo are actively being 
 scrubbed right now???  If not, it sure makes all of this rhetoric 
 sound pretty hollow.  Hmmm, I just did a git pull and they are still 
 there.  I guess no one is moving too quickly on these existing 
 infractions.

 I don't mind a healthy debate, but so far this whole thing has smacked 
 of inconsistency at best (assuming the purest motives of everyone 
 involved and that no one is speaking out of anger or frustration here.)

 Best regards,

 Curt.


 On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Oliver Fels oliver.f...@gmx.net 
 mailto:oliver.f...@gmx.net wrote:


  I think the problem is that someone got on their high horse and
 started
  jerking him around.  If I were him, I'd get just as snotty about
 it - more
  so probably as I've got a much lower tolerance for that kind of
 nonsense.
 [...]
  stop.  It has no basis in reality.  Never has.  Frankly I think
  people are stirring shit up JUST to stir shit up.
 [...]
  If people give you any crap about the textures,
  tell 'em to See Figure #1 and ignore 'em.  They're just a bunch of
  bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run in circles,
  screaming about crap that'll never happen.

 The funny thing is that this mail ended up in my spam folder and I
 believe it should remain there due to its offensive character.

 You can´t just walk through your neighbors garden just because he
 is not at home, won´t see it and won´t complain about it.

 If we are going in circles then the reason is that some people
 ignore all information and links provided and restart everything
 with give me evidence and then don´t care. Evidence *has* been
 provided that Red Bull is actively sueing folks using the logo for
 similar purposes, information *has* been provided that RB is
 seeking the web for copyright infringements and information *has*
 been provided that using the trademark without explicit grant is
 illegal. Why restart from scratch?

 Simon already inquired RB and until then hold your breath and hope
 it goes well. Otherwise the state is pretty clear and we will have
 to take actions.

 This is btw. another stupid effect of FlightProSim selling
 FlightGear- this makes it even worse and increases chances that FG
 will appear on RBs radar one day.

 Oliver

 -- 
 Curtis Olson:
 http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/ 
 http://aem.umn.edu/%7Euav/
 http://www.flightgear.org - 
 http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/curt/ 
 http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/personal/curt/


I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this, but since I haven't 
contributed any textures at all, you could say I don't have a horse in 
this race.  While there is a murky trademark fair use defense, I'm 
pretty confident of  my stance on the legality of using trademarks 
without permission.  Of course there's what's legal and then there's 
what you can get away with.  I think most folks arguing here would agree 
that we're debating the latter.  I think have been convinced that we can 
get away with it in most cases and make amends in the cases where a 
sternly written letter is received.  I agree it would be foolish and 
wasteful for a TM owner to actually sue without trying a C  D first.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread J. Holden

You are all being ridiculous except for Curt.

We have the ability to sell the product and could theoretically get sued even 
though we are open-source. As I have said, the best thing to do is put in a 
legal disclaimer saying we are not affiliated with any companies which may be 
represented in our product. It appears much of trademark law deals
with misrepresentation - if we misrepresent the fact they are not associated
with us then we are in trouble (IE: an ad saying Red Bull (logo) loves
FlightGear to practice air racing would be bad).

Cheers
John

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

Here's the flip side of the argument.  If we are pristine and use no
trademarks, then we have to go through and remove half our simulator
content.  That's a scorched earth policy.  No one wants to do that.  So the
same people drawing the line in the sand on the redbull logo start waffling
on every other trademark about how it's probably ok, and others have done
it, and maybe a case or two where we actually got permission.

These people take themselves right back to the what can we get away with
side of the argument.

So if that's where we all are right now, why are we making such a stink
about one particular logo?  Answer: because someone asserts (without any
provided evidence that I've seen) that this particular logo will cause us
trouble.  Counter evidence #1 is that we've been using it for years without
problems.  Counter evidence #2 is someone who claims to have asked redbull
and got a positive response in a different, but similar situation.

So what's it going to be?  Scorch the earth and be purists?  Go with the
accepted use in the simulation community and not worry about it unless
someone asks us to stop using their logo ... like we have been all along?
 Or are we going to waffle in the middle on some hard to defend quick sand
and take pot shots at each other based on trademarks and logos when the real
issue of contention is probably something completely different.

If we are going to argue, we have to keep it fair, and we have to keep it
consistent ... otherwise this is just yet another run of the mill flame war
that isn't accomplishing anything but to piss everyone off ... and at best
the resolution is we stop fighting, but we do nothing because we are still
staring at each other out of our individual trenches.  Personally I think
this whole drawing the line in the sand on just one particular logo is on
pretty shifty ground myself ...

Can someone who is arguing against redbull logo usage write up a clearly
defined, logical, consistant logo/trademark usage policy that results in the
same differentiation between the redbull logo and every other logo in the
world ... because I have trouble coming up with anything like that myself.

Best regards,

Curt.


On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Reagan Thomas thomas...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 2/17/2011 10:15 AM, Curtis Olson wrote:
  For what it's worth, the RedBull logo is currently used in the scene
  model database to decorate the redbull air race pylons.  We also
  have two aircraft in git that also have RedBull logos.
 
  These are just the instances I found in a 2 second search because they
  had redbull in the file name.  There could easily be other uses of
  it in places with different file names ... that would be a bit harder
  to find without examining each image in our database individually.
 
  I'm sure these known usages of the redbull logo are actively being
  scrubbed right now???  If not, it sure makes all of this rhetoric
  sound pretty hollow.  Hmmm, I just did a git pull and they are still
  there.  I guess no one is moving too quickly on these existing
  infractions.
 
  I don't mind a healthy debate, but so far this whole thing has smacked
  of inconsistency at best (assuming the purest motives of everyone
  involved and that no one is speaking out of anger or frustration here.)
 
  Best regards,
 
  Curt.
 
 
  On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Oliver Fels oliver.f...@gmx.net
  mailto:oliver.f...@gmx.net wrote:
 
 
   I think the problem is that someone got on their high horse and
  started
   jerking him around.  If I were him, I'd get just as snotty about
  it - more
   so probably as I've got a much lower tolerance for that kind of
  nonsense.
  [...]
   stop.  It has no basis in reality.  Never has.  Frankly I think
   people are stirring shit up JUST to stir shit up.
  [...]
   If people give you any crap about the textures,
   tell 'em to See Figure #1 and ignore 'em.  They're just a bunch of
   bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run in circles,
   screaming about crap that'll never happen.
 
  The funny thing is that this mail ended up in my spam folder and I
  believe it should remain there due to its offensive character.
 
  You can´t just walk through your neighbors garden just because he
  is not at home, won´t see it and won´t complain about it.
 
  If we are going in circles then the reason is that some people
  ignore all information and links provided and restart everything
  with give me evidence and then don´t care. Evidence *has* been
  provided that Red Bull is actively sueing folks using the logo for
  similar purposes, information *has* been provided that RB is
  seeking the web for copyright infringements and information *has*
  been provided that using the trademark without explicit grant is
  illegal. Why restart from scratch?
 
  Simon already inquired RB and until then hold your breath and

Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Oliver Fels


 I'm sorry if reality offends your delicate sensibilities.

May I remind you of this quote here:
They're just a bunch of bloviating windbags with nothing better to do but run 
in circles, 

If that is your style it does not deserve more comments.

 
  You can´t just walk through your neighbors garden just because he is
 not 
  at home, won´t see it and won´t complain about it.
 
 Nice strawman.  Physical tresspass != trademark infringment.

So your sense for legal and illegal depends ? Illegal trespassing is not ok but 
copyright infringement (by intention) is?

For what it´s worth, trademark infringements are often higher punished than 
illegal trespassing. Depending on the value of the item in question, starting 
by a few thousands.

 I've never seen a link to a legal document that has shown RedBull to be 
 actively engaging any entity or group over the use of their trademark 
 logo in any open source project.  Put up or shut up.  Simple as that.

RB is against *any* unauthorized usage. RB *has* denied usage on various RC 
models (as Heiko and myself stated, links in German upon request) and just that 
they have not sued FG or a contact person yet does not mean they will not in 
the future.
Because they have every single right to do so and we don´t have any right to 
include RB trademarks into FlightGear GIT.


 Until RedBull says in very clear language, Hey FlightGear!  We need you 
 to remove all images that contain our trademark from your scenery  
 aircraft databases! you need to stop getting your undies in a twist.

Once again: Wrong direction. It is your/my/our responsibility to ensure 
legality. In case of RB we know that we are currently in an illegal state.

  This is btw. another stupid effect of FlightProSim selling FlightGear- 
  this makes it even worse and increases chances that FG will appear on 
  RBs radar one day.
 
 This doesn't have a damn thing to do with that and you know it.  
I'd LOVE RedBull to chase after FPS!

The following would happen: RB says hey they are selling our logo in that FPS 
thing and address FPS. FPS will tell them something about GPL and point 
directly to FlightGear. There you are on the radar.
The fact that FPS is commercially selling derivates of FG is pretty critical.

 Understand this - no company is going to go to the time and expenditure of
 a lawsuit of any kind when they know full well a simple letter will 
 accomplish the same task.  

Sueing is not the first step today. The first step always is a declaration of 
discontinuance with an immediate penalty clause. Lawyers love those as it is 
pretty few effort and high benefit for them.

Oliver

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

On Thu, 17 Feb 2011 08:43:19 -0800 (PST), J. wrote in message 
234538.53500...@web33103.mail.mud.yahoo.com:

 You are all being ridiculous except for Curt.
 
 We have the ability to sell the product and could theoretically get
 sued even though we are open-source. As I have said, the best thing
 to do is put in a legal disclaimer saying we are not affiliated with
 any companies which may be represented in our product. It appears
 much of trademark law deals with misrepresentation - if we
 misrepresent the fact they are not associated with us then we are in
 trouble (IE: an ad saying Red Bull (logo) loves FlightGear to
 practice air racing would be bad).

..the mere absence of such a legal disclaimer, can be construed 
as a misrepresentation, and done in a frivolous law suit, it 
_will_ cost us money to hire some law shark to file a formally
acceptable response to such a claim to the relevant courts.

..yes, it _is_ possible to try do it yourself, in about 
the same way FG qualifies each of us as F-104G pilots.

..not responding, means _lose_ by default.

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Frederic Bouvier

IMO, our use of trademarked material is just fair use (google 'copyright fair 
use' if you like) and it's something we shouldn't worry about.

-Fred
-- 
Frédéric Bouvier
http://www.youtube.com/user/fgfred64   Videos


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Reagan Thomas

On 2/17/2011 11:25 AM, Frederic Bouvier wrote:
 IMO, our use of trademarked material is just fair use (google 'copyright fair 
 use' if you like) and it's something we shouldn't worry about.

 -Fred

Close, but google trademark fair use instead.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Gene Lege

As I am sure many other people will point out, fair use is a specific
provision of copyright law - it has absolutely nothing to do with trademark
law.

gl

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Frederic Bouvier fredfgf...@free.frwrote:

 IMO, our use of trademarked material is just fair use (google 'copyright
 fair use' if you like) and it's something we shouldn't worry about.

 -Fred
 --
 Frédéric Bouvier
 http://www.youtube.com/user/fgfred64   Videos



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread HB-GRAL

Am 17.02.11 18:30, schrieb Gene Lege:
 As I am sure many other people will point out, fair use is a specific
 provision of copyright law - it has absolutely nothing to do with trademark
 law.


It looks like Red Bull has licenses to use their trademark for Apps and 
Games. An example for this is Red Bull Motocross:

Created  developed by Xendex. © 2010 Xendex Holding GmbH. All Rights 
Reserved. Xendex is a registered trademark of Xendex Holding GmbH. 
Published by Digital Chocolate. www.digitalchocolate.com © 2010 Digital 
Chocolate. All Rights Reserved. The RED BULL trademark, the RED BULL  
Device trademark and Double Bull Device are trademarks of Red Bull 
GmbH/Austria and used under license. Red Bull GmbH/Austria reserves all 
rights therein and unauthorized uses are prohibited.

When a company has licenses for the use of trademark in software and has 
also such a marketing strategy maybe we should really care?

-Yves

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread J. Holden

Fair use is also a defense for trademarks.

The problem is these are defenses - they will only work if we are defendants in 
a lawsuit, and we don't want to litigate.

We should take a path which maximizes our resources while minimizes our 
potential to get sued, or at least have a lot of data removed from our 
repository.

For instance, it is clear we can't use Google data for mapping by the terms of 
their license agreement.

It is less clear on these trademark issues. Stating we do not endorse any 
companies or products which may be used within the simulator is a step forward, 
because it seems we would be in compliance. However as I've said before I am 
not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

The good news is we are unlikely to be sued. Still it is a good idea to state 
we do not endorse any products or companies presented in this software, stated 
in section 1125(a) found here: 
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode15/usc_sec_15_1125000-.html

Cheers
John

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

Hi,


  understand: The problem is
 really only the Red Bull logo, as they are 
  known to make problems. If other sims use this logo,
 then only because 
  Red Bull didn't discoverd it yet. Mostly all other
 logos using in this
 
 Citation please.

Easy: Google Red Bull Trademark and you will find forums discussing this 
topic.
Better: Google: Red Bull Trademark sue

But for the lazy ones: (in german)
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php/49082-Red-Bull-Vorlage-Folie/page1

http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=261953
Here the user Stefan asked Red Bull for using their logo for a RC-model which 
he does use only for his own and now got an answer (in german):

weshalb wir natürlich größtes Verständnis für Ihre Anfrage haben. Trotzdem 
können wir Ihrem Wunsch, Ihre Modellflieger in unserem Design zu lackieren, aus 
nachstehenden Gründen keine Flügel verleihen.

Wie Sie sich sicherlich gut vorstellen können, wird unser Logo naturgemäß immer 
mit der Red Bull Firmengruppe in Verbindung gebracht, obwohl der potentielle 
Nutzer des Logos tatsächlich gar nicht mit Red Bull in Verbindung steht. Genau 
diese Situation versuchen wir aber mit unserer stringenten Markenstrategie zu 
verhindern, weil die Marke sonst verwässert wird. Wir investieren sehr viel 
Arbeit und Geld, um unsere Marken entsprechend zu positionieren und dies ist 
auch mit einer sehr starken Kontrolle unserer Markenrechte verbunden. Aus 
diesem Grund bitten wir für die ablehnende Entscheidung um Verständnis.

Der guten Ordnung halber erlauben wir uns, Sie darauf hinzuweisen, dass sowohl 
der Name Red Bull, die zwei Stiere vor der Sonne als auch das Blau/Silberne 
Trapez (mithin der gesamte Marktauftritt von Red Bull) markenrechtlich 
vollumfänglich geschützt sind und nur mit Erlaubnis von Red Bull verwendet 
werden dürfen. Andernfalls steht eine Markenrechtsverletzung im Raum.

Wir hoffen auf Ihr wertes Verständnis und wünschen Ihnen weiterhin alles Gute!

Mit besten Grüßen,

Harald Reiter
Geschäftsführer
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
i.A. Andrea Hattinger
Assistant to Harald Reiter


In the last sentence they clearly say:
 The name, the bulls in front of the sun and the trapez (with that the whole 
trademark) are completly copyrighted and registered trademark by Red Bull and 
may only used with permission of Red Bull.

Cheers
Heiko








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Re: [Flightgear-devel] IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

Hi,

 
 Last year there was a high court decision in Germany
 regarding the trademarked logos of Opel (spark) and Mercedes
 (the well known star).
 The court stated that a replica of an item can include
 trademarked logos if they integrally belong to the original
 item. This means that a Opel car replica is expected to have
 that spark logo as well as a Mercedes should have the star.
 A trademark holder can not enforce to exclude it nor can he
 claim licensing fees in the worst case.
 So for the Eurocopter logo the same applies if it is placed
 on an Eurocopter helicopter replica. It would be different
 to place it on a Bell aircraft. Therefore I  believe we
 are on the safe side here.

I read about this, but I'm not sure if this applies to my model as well. 

 As to airline liveries things are more in a grey area but
 pretty similar. You expect the LH livery to be on an Airbus
 A380, CRJ200, etc. So as long as it is realistic and placed
 on the right plane type I would not expect issues here as
 this is common appearance and noone would expect that the
 A320 in FSX or FlightGear is directly affiliated with
 Lufthansa. Putting a LH livery on a plane is replicating LHs
 core business.

I hope this is right. There have been many decisions and it depends on each 
court.
The fact is that every logo is part of the trademark and so it is protected and 
the owner may forbid this thing. Red Bull stated exactly this in a link I gave 
here in the discussion and in the forum.

A lot of companies don't mind using the logo in a correct way (the right model 
etc...). But using their name like for a Virtual Airlines they mind.
Lufthansa seems not to mind the many thousand liveries made for the different 
sims. But they mind a Virtual Airline using their name. 

DRF (Deutsche RettungsFlugwacht) as the opposite even offers their logo and a 
detailed paint scheme on their homepage for using it on models.

It depends on each company how they will act. 


 Red Bull in turn is in a different core business and
 intensively merchandises its trademark for other businesses.
 So putting the logo on a can is prohibited as well as
 putting it on every other item as well as aircrafts, be it
 real or virtual unless stated otherwise.
 
 However I am not sure what the issue would be if we
 realistically modeled a RB beverage can- maybe RB would pay
 for advertising  :)
 
 Oliver

There are so many grey zones...  The whole thing is complety mad! 



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simgear and OSG out of sync?

2011-02-17 Thread Martin Spott

Tim Moore wrote:

 I've committed one more fix that should make things right on 2.8.3.

Works with stock OSG libs on Debian 6,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simgear and OSG out of sync?

2011-02-17 Thread Bertrand Coconnier

2011/2/17 Tim Moore timoor...@gmail.com:
 I've committed one more fix that should make things right on 2.8.3.
 Tim


It works now with OSG 2.8.1 !

Thanks Tim.

Bertrand.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

On Thu, 17 Feb 2011, Heiko Schulz wrote:

Hi,

understand: The problem is
really only the Red Bull logo, as they are
known to make problems. If other sims use this logo,
then only because
Red Bull didn't discoverd it yet. Mostly all other
logos using in this

Citation please.

Easy: Google Red Bull Trademark and you will find forums discussing this
topic.
Better: Google: Red Bull Trademark sue

red bull sue is a lot funnier.

Regardless, nothing relating to open source use of logos on aircraft
models in flight simulator.

Note that I actually found a picture of a real AH-1 Cobra
(http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image49158.html) in Red Bull livery -
this tells me that if Jack's AH-1 uses this same livery, there is likely
no infringement at all. No more so than someone painting a picture of the
Red Bull Cobra would be.

http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=261953 Here the user
Stefan asked Red Bull for using their logo for a RC-model which he
does use only for his own and now got an answer (in german):

Awesome. Presented in a country in which I don't reside _and_ in a
language I don't read or speak.

If the model the person wanted to put the RB logo on is one not
traditionally marked by them, then yeah, I can see they'd have a problem
with it. However, if it's an accurate representation of something found
here:
http://www.google.com/images?hl=enbiw=1191bih=700tbs=isch%3A1sa=1q=red+bull+aircraft+collectionaq=faqi=g1aql=oq=

I would suspect that RB a) would have no problem with and b) would have no
reasonable legal remedy because the model would be an accurate scale
representation of a real world object. This of course may be an incorrect
assumption - I'm (obviously!) not a trademark attourney.

Note that while hard to see from your high horse, you might want to look
closely at every single aircraft in the library. See a Boeing 747 in
there? Sorry, that's a trademark violation! Get rid of it or rename it.
Ohh, I see a Ryan Navion. That's a violation too. We'll have to call it
Plane, General Aviation, Monocoque Design, 1947. Oh darn, lookee
there! It's a Piper Seneca II! That's gotta go! We'll call that one
Plane, General Aviation, Twin, Reciprocating Engine.

Like Curt mentioned earlier, you'd better apply the same standard across
the board or don't bother. I think your best bet is to create your own
little private sanitized aircraft collection so you don't have to be
horrified by the rest of us scoff-laws.

After you're done taking chainsaw to the FlightGear repository, you really
should head over to Avsim.com, flightsim.com, etc. and make sure there's
no icky trademark infringement going on over there as well. I'm sure
they'll appriciate you just as much as we do!

--
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by the clean end.

Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks,

2011-02-17 Thread Martin Spott

Curtis Olson wrote:

 I'm sure these known usages of the redbull logo are actively being scrubbed
 right now???  If not, it sure makes all of this rhetoric sound pretty
 hollow.  Hmmm, I just did a git pull and they are still there.  I guess no
 one is moving too quickly on these existing infractions.

Ah, do you expect us to take action _before_ negotiating ?

Strange,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

On Thu, 17 Feb 2011 18:00:37 +0100, Oliver wrote in message 
20110217170037.16...@gmx.net:

 I'd LOVE RedBull to chase after FPS!
 
 The following would happen: RB says hey they are selling our logo in
 that FPS thing and address FPS. FPS will tell them something about
 GPL and point directly to FlightGear. There you are on the radar. The
 fact that FPS is commercially selling derivates of FG is pretty
 critical.
 
  Understand this - no company is going to go to the time and
  expenditure of a lawsuit of any kind when they know full well a
  simple letter will accomplish the same task.  

..riiight, tell IBM, Autozone, Chrysler, Novell and Red Hat. ;o)

 Sueing is not the first step today. The first step always is a
 declaration of discontinuance with an immediate penalty clause.

..that's the first step, the next is allege There was no response! 
and support their allegation with volumes of paper work to someone
who restricts his response to verbose 4-letter language and fails 
to hire an attorney to put said language on paper and properly file
it with the relevant court, which isn't neccessarily the same as 
the one the prospective plaintiff would like to use to pin us down.

..our problem is, we _have_ to respond properly, or, 
watch the bad guys screw us by default. 

 Lawyers love those as it is pretty few effort and high benefit for
 them.

..amen!.

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request


 
 Like Curt mentioned earlier, you'd better apply the same
 standard across 
 the board or don't bother.  I think your best bet is
 to create your own 
 little private sanitized aircraft collection so you don't
 have to be 
 horrified by the rest of us scoff-laws.
 
 After you're done taking chainsaw to the FlightGear
 repository, you really 
 should head over to Avsim.com, flightsim.com, etc. and make
 sure there's 
 no icky trademark infringement going on over there as
 well.  I'm sure 
 they'll appriciate you just as much as we do!
 
 g.
 

To be honest:
Yes, according to international laws a lot of the content is indeed an 
infringement.

It depends on each company how they react. Most companies won't say anything, 
but in the past there have been some.

Red Bull is known here that they don't like to see their logo on things they 
aren't affiliated with. This means as I translated: Without their permission 
you are not allowed to use it- even it is just for your own pleasure.

But the whole flightsim with MSFS, X-Plane, Fly! and FlightGear has grown so 
much, that the most companies won't say anything anymore. As I described 
already here on the list, some companies even likes this and see it as free 
advertisement; some just don't want to see no Virtual Airline using their name, 
but are o.k. with using the logo for a repaint

If Red Bull wasn't known here for his strict view Oliver never had say 
anything. 

It is our own risk how we act.

Heiko



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks,

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.netwrote:

Curtis Olson wrote:

I'm sure these known usages of the redbull logo are actively being
scrubbed
right now??? If not, it sure makes all of this rhetoric sound pretty
hollow. Hmmm, I just did a git pull and they are still there. I guess
no
one is moving too quickly on these existing infractions.

Ah, do you expect us to take action _before_ negotiating ?

sigh

Since everyone here is putting redbull's interests ahead of there own, how
is it different from redbull's perspective when we happily continue to use
their logo in 3 places in our sim, but restrict the use in another place. I
really feel like we are in the middle of a logic void. I apologize, I have
this need to see logic in things ... I guess that's why I made a terrible
employee.

All this talk about trademarks and logos that we can use versus that we
can't use, and instances of the redbull logo that we are currently using
versus instances of the logo that we apparently can't use because of
litigation threats is about to make my head explode.

What am I missing here? I am really really really struggling with the way
people are justifying our use of a specific logo in one case, and then
turning right around and arguing that we can't use the very same logo in
another case? I'm thoroughly confused!

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Heiko Schulz aeitsch...@yahoo.de wrote:

To be honest:
Yes, according to international laws a lot of the content is indeed an
infringement.

It depends on each company how they react. Most companies won't say
anything, but in the past there have been some.

Red Bull is known here that they don't like to see their logo on things
they aren't affiliated with. This means as I translated: Without their
permission you are not allowed to use it- even it is just for your own
pleasure.

But the whole flightsim with MSFS, X-Plane, Fly! and FlightGear has grown
so much, that the most companies won't say anything anymore. As I described
already here on the list, some companies even likes this and see it as free
advertisement; some just don't want to see no Virtual Airline using their
name, but are o.k. with using the logo for a repaint

If Red Bull wasn't known here for his strict view Oliver never had say
anything.

It is our own risk how we act.

So why aren't we *removing* all our existing uses of the redbull logo ... or
at least the ones that I can find in 2 seconds? None of the people who are
saying Jack can't submit his helicopter with a redbull livery are saying
anything about the 2 aircraft and several scenery database models that
clearly also use the redbull logo and have existed in our sim for years.

This smells strongly of a case where we like our policy better when it's
applied to others and not ourselves. I'm not saying there isn't some
logical explanation that I'm totally missing, I'm just saying what it smells
like to me.

Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

Hi,


This smells strongly of a case where we like our policy better when it's 
applied to others and not ourselves.  I'm not saying there isn't some 
logical explanation that I'm totally missing, I'm just saying what it smells 
like to me.

Myself wasn't aware of that we have other models with the RD-logo as well. 
I'm not sure if Oliver, the starter of this debate is.

But if so, I can understand that Jack is pissed off- and yes, to be consequent 
we would have to remove them as well. 

The whole thing Repaints-Copyrights-trademarks isn't very logical.
It is like so much in real life: you are allowed to do anything, as long noone 
sees it.

Or better: If there's no claimant, there's no judge.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

On Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:06:00 +0100, HB-GRAL wrote in message 
4d5d6388.1040...@sablonier.ch:

 Am 17.02.11 18:30, schrieb Gene Lege:
  As I am sure many other people will point out, fair use is a
  specific provision of copyright law - it has absolutely nothing to
  do with trademark law.
 
 
 It looks like Red Bull has licenses to use their trademark for Apps
 and Games. An example for this is Red Bull Motocross:
 
 Created  developed by Xendex. © 2010 Xendex Holding GmbH. All
 Rights Reserved. Xendex is a registered trademark of Xendex Holding
 GmbH. Published by Digital Chocolate. www.digitalchocolate.com © 2010
 Digital Chocolate. All Rights Reserved. The RED BULL trademark, the
 RED BULL  Device trademark and Double Bull Device are trademarks of
 Red Bull GmbH/Austria and used under license. Red Bull GmbH/Austria
 reserves all rights therein and unauthorized uses are prohibited.
 
 When a company has licenses for the use of trademark in software and
 has also such a marketing strategy maybe we should really care?

..we could ask Debian Legal, if Red Bull's license flies under DFSG
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines )
then we are ok, otherwise Debian will kick FG out of Main and either
into non-free or _out_.

..e.g. Mozilla's trademark policy on Firefox, is non-DFSG, 
so it is forked and stripped of trademarks, as Iceweasel.
http://www.debian.org/legal/
http://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/

..and, how does Debian deal with abuse of Debian's own logo?: ;o) 
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/11/msg00056.html

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Stuart Buchanan

Curt wrote:
 So why aren't we *removing* all our existing uses of the redbull logo ... or 
 at least the ones that I can find in 2 seconds?  None of the people who are 
 saying Jack can't submit his helicopter with a redbull livery are saying 
 anything about the 2 aircraft and several scenery database models that 
 clearly also use the redbull logo and have existed in our sim for years.

IMO we should do just that (and they shouldn't have been included in the first 
place). I had forgotten about them when I wrote my first email on this subject, 
otherwise I would have suggested they be removed as well.  We should be 
consistent. 

However given that there us such disagreement on this subject I'm not going to 
unilaterally remove them. 

I think by far the best option is to wait to see what comes out of the request 
that someone on the forums made to RB. Assuming they reply that will provide 
clarification one way or the other. 


 This smells strongly of a case where we like our policy better when it's 
 applied to others and not ourselves.  I'm not saying there isn't some logical 
 explanation that I'm totally missing, I'm just saying what it smells like to 
 me.

Yes, you've said so twice. I think I've answered why I do not think that is the 
case and given an explicit example where the same standards have been applied 
to my own work. I'd like to think that you had a slightly higher opinion of my 
motives :)

I have a policy of always assuming the best of intentions in others, even if I 
disagree with them. It's a great way to avoid getting worked up about things. 

-Stuart
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Vivian Meazza

Stuart Buchanan

Snip ...


 However given that there us such disagreement on this subject I'm not
 going to unilaterally remove them.
 

I should think not!

Vivian



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Duane Andre

Although Flight Gear is a 'not for profit', there are at least a couple of
'businesses' (ProFlightSimulator  FlightProSimulator) that use FGS's
software as their core including aircraft and world map. And, since those
companies  are in the 'for profit' realm, certain companies that are really
serious about trademark infringement might consider going after them and, by
association, come after FGS precisely because FGS software is the core of
their product(s). Just a thought.

Regards,
Duane

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Buchanan [mailto:stuar...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 5:29 PM
To: FlightGear developers discussions
Cc: FlightGear developers discussions
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge
Request

Curt wrote:
 So why aren't we *removing* all our existing uses of the redbull logo ...
or at least the ones that I can find in 2 seconds?  None of the people who
are saying Jack can't submit his helicopter with a redbull livery are saying
anything about the 2 aircraft and several scenery database models that
clearly also use the redbull logo and have existed in our sim for years.

IMO we should do just that (and they shouldn't have been included in the
first place). I had forgotten about them when I wrote my first email on this
subject, otherwise I would have suggested they be removed as well.  We
should be consistent. 

However given that there us such disagreement on this subject I'm not going
to unilaterally remove them. 

I think by far the best option is to wait to see what comes out of the
request that someone on the forums made to RB. Assuming they reply that will
provide clarification one way or the other. 


 This smells strongly of a case where we like our policy better when it's
applied to others and not ourselves.  I'm not saying there isn't some
logical explanation that I'm totally missing, I'm just saying what it smells
like to me.

Yes, you've said so twice. I think I've answered why I do not think that is
the case and given an explicit example where the same standards have been
applied to my own work. I'd like to think that you had a slightly higher
opinion of my motives :)

I have a policy of always assuming the best of intentions in others, even if
I disagree with them. It's a great way to avoid getting worked up about
things. 

-Stuart

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Peter Brown

This is getting ludicrous.
I guess there won't be complaints about The Forum anymore.

Move on, before you kill FG by removing all content that encourages 
someone to use it.
There are other discussions more worthy of your expertise. 
Beating this one over and over again will only drive each of you 
further away from the reason you're here.

Curt said it, Gene said it, others stated it.  FG uses logos, it's part of the 
environment.  It's part of the texture world.
Curt's not worried about any issues arising from it, take some comfort there 
and leave it be.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge Request

2011-02-17 Thread Chris Wilkinson

I've been lurking on this discussion, and feel a need to add my $0.02. If there 
is a question over the legality of the use of certain trademarked logo's, why 
not ask the copyright holder(s)? Rather that than waste time on a pointless 
debate where the arguments either way are speculative at best...

Frankly flightgear is a mature project that has been around a long time, and 
during that time has certainly made available any number of textured models 
displaying copyrighted logos etc. That no copyright holder has asked the team 
to 
remove any of those logos yet tells me that perhaps as a not-for-profit 
community based enterprise we're not considered a target for copyright 
enforcement. But again, only the copyright holders can clarify that with us 
with 
any certainty...

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.




From: Duane Andre beanere...@gmail.com
To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Fri, 18 February, 2011 10:07:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge 
Request

Although Flight Gear is a 'not for profit', there are at least a couple of
'businesses' (ProFlightSimulator  FlightProSimulator) that use FGS's
software as their core including aircraft and world map. And, since those
companies  are in the 'for profit' realm, certain companies that are really
serious about trademark infringement might consider going after them and, by
association, come after FGS precisely because FGS software is the core of
their product(s). Just a thought.

Regards,
Duane

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Buchanan [mailto:stuar...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 5:29 PM
To: FlightGear developers discussions
Cc: FlightGear developers discussions
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..IP and litigation risks, was: AH-1 Merge
Request

Curt wrote:
 So why aren't we *removing* all our existing uses of the redbull logo ...
or at least the ones that I can find in 2 seconds?  None of the people who
are saying Jack can't submit his helicopter with a redbull livery are saying
anything about the 2 aircraft and several scenery database models that
clearly also use the redbull logo and have existed in our sim for years.

IMO we should do just that (and they shouldn't have been included in the
first place). I had forgotten about them when I wrote my first email on this
subject, otherwise I would have suggested they be removed as well.  We
should be consistent. 

However given that there us such disagreement on this subject I'm not going
to unilaterally remove them. 

I think by far the best option is to wait to see what comes out of the
request that someone on the forums made to RB. Assuming they reply that will
provide clarification one way or the other. 


 This smells strongly of a case where we like our policy better when it's
applied to others and not ourselves.  I'm not saying there isn't some
logical explanation that I'm totally missing, I'm just saying what it smells
like to me.

Yes, you've said so twice. I think I've answered why I do not think that is
the case and given an explicit example where the same standards have been
applied to my own work. I'd like to think that you had a slightly higher
opinion of my motives :)

I have a policy of always assuming the best of intentions in others, even if
I disagree with them. It's a great way to avoid getting worked up about
things. 

-Stuart

--
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Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
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[Flightgear-devel] Flightgear bug/compatibility report?

2011-02-17 Thread Nikon User


Hi Folks,
 
I am running Flightgear 64-bit with the latest git pull and windows nightly 
build applied.   FG works fine without Rendering options enabled and I get 42 
frames on the runway with a DH91 Albatross.   But I cant get some of the 
material shader stuff working.   
 
Please let me know where I should be reporting this if this mailing list is the 
wrong place.   Thanks! : )
 
 
 
--- The problem ---
The FG cockpit (where the flying is done) window just closes without any 
message when I click on any of:
Material shaders 
Crop Texture
Landmass Effect
 
The FG cockpit window will pop up a dialog box stating fgfs.exe has stopped 
working when I click on Material Shaders  Water reflection.
 
I am not sure whether its the 64bit FG v2.0.0 fgfs.exe or the 32bit fgfs ... or 
anything else ...   On the FG 64bit v2.0.0 'dos' window, the only error is 
Unknown exception in the mail loop.  Aborting ...
Possible cause: Not enough space
Processing command line arguments
 
 
 
--- The working bits ---
With Material shaders selected, I can enable the following features with around 
18 frames at runway:
General  
Wireframe
 
Objects 
Particles
Percipitation
Random Objects
Random Vegetation (though I cant actually see the random vegetation - I did 
manage to see this before in FG2.0
 
Clouds 
3D Clouds (density 1.00 2m range)   Looks lovely.
 
Material Shaders
Urban effects
Transition effects
Persistent Contrails
 
Snow line 2000m
Performance vs Quality 5.0
 
--- The system ---
Intel i7 2600K (Sandy Bridge) with 16GB RAM on Asus P8H67 motherboard using the 
integrated graphics with Open GL support (3.0, I think)
Saitek Cyborg X / Cyborg Fly 5 joystick with my own XML file.
 
The 16GB was helpful for FG2.0 but now with the latest night build, it doesn't 
seem to go above 4GB so I guess whatever code tweaking for the memory usage 
really works well. : )
 
Thanks,
 
Ernest
 
 
 
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Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb___
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Flightgear bug/compatibility report?