Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Steve Rickaby]

At 12:27 -0800 9/12/06, Jeremy H. Griffith wrote:

>On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:06:41 +, Steve Rickaby
> wrote:
>
>>As a side-issue to this discussion, is it true that a
>>graphic imported by copy retains no accessible path
>>information to the original imported file?
>
>Yes.  It's easy to verify that; import one by copy,
>and look at the MIF.  No name or path there.

Thanks for that, Jeremy. I appreciate that three does not appear to be any 
record, my question was really to ask whether any Deep Juju could be used to 
recover the information. Clearly not.

> >If this is the case, I'd see it as a major demerit of
>>import by copy. In the work that I do, graphics change
>>pretty much as often as text, and the ability to generate
>>lists of imported files is mandatory.
>
>One of many major demerits, IMHO.  To me, the sudden
>appearance of grey boxes where images used to be, which
>can be fixed only by re-importing those images (if you
>are fortunate enough to remember where they are and what
>they are named), is much worse.  And that can happen
>at any time.

Quite.

-- 
Steve

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Shmuel Wolfson]

If you keep the graphics in a separate folder within the folder that 
contains the FM file, the refereed file has a relative path. So if you 
want to pass it around, all you have to do is zip the entire folder 
including the graphics folder, and it should be fine on other people's 
computer. Of course have to be inserted after you place them in the 
subfolder.

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
052-763-7133

RE: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Steve Rickaby]

As a side-issue to this discussion, is it true that a graphic imported by copy 
retains no accessible path information to the original imported file?

If this is the case, I'd see it as a major demerit of import by copy. In the 
work that I do, graphics change pretty much as often as text, and the ability 
to generate lists of imported files is mandatory.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:06:41 +, Steve Rickaby 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As a side-issue to this discussion, is it true that a 
graphic imported by copy retains no accessible path 
information to the original imported file?

Yes.  It's easy to verify that; import one by copy,
and look at the MIF.  No name or path there.

If this is the case, I'd see it as a major demerit of 
import by copy. In the work that I do, graphics change 
pretty much as often as text, and the ability to generate 
lists of imported files is mandatory.

One of many major demerits, IMHO.  To me, the sudden
appearance of grey boxes where images used to be, which
can be fixed only by re-importing those images (if you
are fortunate enough to remember where they are and what
they are named), is much worse.  And that can happen 
at any time.


-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.omsys.com/
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[John Posada]

 We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file
 around without breaking the links to the graphics. It may take 
 a little longer to do our books, but I feel it equals out since
 we don't have to hassle with broken links.

We never copy graphics into files. All the writers have the same
directory structure and our common network archive matches that
structure. We pass around books all the time with no graphics issues.

John Posada
Senior Technical Writer

I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never 
actually known what the question is.
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Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Steve Rickaby]

As a side-issue to this discussion, is it true that a graphic imported by copy 
retains no accessible path information to the original imported file?

If this is the case, I'd see it as a major demerit of import by copy. In the 
work that I do, graphics change pretty much as often as text, and the ability 
to generate lists of imported files is mandatory.

-- 
Steve

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:06:41 +, Steve Rickaby 
 wrote:

>As a side-issue to this discussion, is it true that a 
>graphic imported by copy retains no accessible path 
>information to the original imported file?

Yes.  It's easy to verify that; import one by copy,
and look at the MIF.  No name or path there.

>If this is the case, I'd see it as a major demerit of 
>import by copy. In the work that I do, graphics change 
>pretty much as often as text, and the ability to generate 
>lists of imported files is mandatory.

One of many major demerits, IMHO.  To me, the sudden
appearance of grey boxes where images used to be, which
can be fixed only by re-importing those images (if you
are fortunate enough to remember where they are and what
they are named), is much worse.  And that can happen 
at any time.


-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[John Posada]

> We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file
> around without breaking the links to the graphics. It may take 
> a little longer to do our books, but I feel it equals out since
> we don't have to hassle with broken links.

We never copy graphics into files. All the writers have the same
directory structure and our common network archive matches that
structure. We pass around books all the time with no graphics issues.

John Posada
Senior Technical Writer

"I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never 
actually known what the question is."

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Gillian Flato]

Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.
 
Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.
 
Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?
 
 
 

Thank you,

 

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)

nanometrics

1550 Buckeye Dr. 

Milpitas, CA. 95035

(408.435.9600 x 316

7  408.232.5911

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .com
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Steve Rickaby]

At 10:17 -0800 8/12/06, Gillian Flato wrote:

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.
 
Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.

You may well be right. Copying graphics in naturally makes the FrameMaker 
source files much larger, and large files make books that take longer to build. 
There may also be something subtler going on, but I suspect this is the guts of 
it.

However, a *lot* of graphics can make books take longer to build, too, 
irrespective of whether they are copied or by reference. As I have recently 
found to my cost, with a book with some thousands of import by reference links.

Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?

I think this has been debated on the group before, so the archives might render 
something, but afaik the guts of it is the tradeoff between document size, 
ruggedness and portability. Importing by reference keeps your documents small 
and FrameMaker fast, but the links are frangible. Importing by copy makes your 
documents portable, but bigger. You also lose the ability to update a single 
graphics and have it change everywhere it is used, so there's a version control 
element to this discussion too.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Art Campbell]

Import by reference is the SOP for most shops, I think.

Much smaller FM files and much easier to update and manage the
graphics (both the graphic files themselves and the FM usage of them).
Also, in general, better reproduction, but that depends on the file
format.

May want to print/review/quote the FM Help section on Importing,
Linking, and Exporting.

Art

On 12/8/06, Gillian Flato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.

Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.

Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?




Thank you,



mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)



--
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
  and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Doug]

IMO, good tech writers don't let other tech writers drive dru--uh,
import graphics by copying into the document.  Bad tech writer, bad,
bad!

--Doug
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Rick Quatro]

The debate will be over the first time one of their imported-by-copy 
graphics gets corrupted and turns into a gray box. Someone will have to know 
what and where the original graphic is, since that data is not stored when 
the graphic is imported by copy. Importing by copy is bad practice.


Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.

Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.

Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?




Thank you,



mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)

nanometrics

1550 Buckeye Dr.

Milpitas, CA. 95035

(408.435.9600 x 316

7  408.232.5911

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .com
blocked::mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Scott White]

We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file around  
without breaking the links to the graphics. It may take a little  
longer to do our books, but I feel it equals out since we don't have  
to hassle with broken links. As far as paginating our books, we just  
break our files down a little smaller and this makes the files fast  
enough to work with.


Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On Dec 8, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Gillian Flato wrote:


Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.

Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building  
process?  I

have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.

Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?




Thank you,



mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)

nanometrics

1550 Buckeye Dr.

Milpitas, CA. 95035

(408.435.9600 x 316

7  408.232.5911

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .com
blocked::mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential  
information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you  
are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are not  
the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or  
taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited.

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RE: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Neil Tubb]

Really? While this sounds crazy to me, I suppose if you were not working
off the same network it would be the only way to go. Generally, though,
most TW depts. are working off the same LAN (CMS or not), so sharing is
not an issue.

I just find importing by ref is simple, and for software especially it
makes it easy when updating screenshots.

My 2 cents,
Neil


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
] On Behalf Of Scott White
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:34 PM
To: Gillian Flato
Cc: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference 

We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file around  
without breaking the links to the graphics. It may take a little  
longer to do our books, but I feel it equals out since we don't have  
to hassle with broken links. As far as paginating our books, we just  
break our files down a little smaller and this makes the files fast  
enough to work with.

Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On Dec 8, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Gillian Flato wrote:

 Guys,

 We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
 for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
 hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
 build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
 the graphics into the document.

 Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building  
 process?  I
 have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
 bigger graphics.

 Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
 do you guys do?




 Thank you,



 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Gillian Flato

 Technical Writer (Software)

 nanometrics

 1550 Buckeye Dr.

 Milpitas, CA. 95035

 (408.435.9600 x 316

 7  408.232.5911

 * [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .com
 blocked::mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




 This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential  
 information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you  
 are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are not  
 the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or  
 taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited.
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RE: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Combs, Richard]

Scott White wrote:
 
 We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file 
 around without breaking the links to the graphics. It may 
 take a little longer to do our books, but I feel it equals 
 out since we don't have to hassle with broken links. As far 
 as paginating our books, we just break our files down a 
 little smaller and this makes the files fast enough to work with. 

Why do you have to pass the file around? I'm not sure I even
understand what that means, but if all of a book's FM files are in a
directory, and all its graphics are in a subdirectory of that, then you
can pass around the directory without breaking anything. 

In fact, more complicated schemes with shared graphics work without
breaking as long as relative paths remain the same (don't cross the root
of a drive, or the paths become absolute). So if you mean working
locally and then copying to a server (which is what I do), you just
maintain the same directory structure in both places. In fact, there are
utilities that will keep the local and remote directories in sync.

But I'm with Neil -- the biggest advantage of referenced graphics for me
is being able to replace screen shots with newer versions and have the
FM docs update automatically when I open them. I update graphics _far_
more often than I move files around. 

IMHO, YMMV, etc. 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--





 
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Scott White]

I understand what you are saying about referenced images, but...

We built software that exports a file out of filemaker and then  
imports into frame. We wanted to eliminate the problems that folks  
have had in the past of the referenced images displaying a gray box  
when the file is moved from one person to another or to a print  
shop.  In the Industrial Distribution business, which is 95 percent  
of our clientele, do not have the network structure to run a frame  
network per se nor the graphic and computer understanding to  
eliminate these linking problems easily.


We built this automated system to make it easier for the end user who  
knows very little about databases, image management and desktop  
publishing. With some frame training that I provide, our customers  
can get a 1000-page catalog done by themselves -- a real pain point  
for this type of business in the past. You have to realize here that  
we are dealing with mid-million companies who know only one thing --  
how to sell products.


With that said, we are developing our latest version where we are  
going to look into several new enhancements including running  
referenced files.


For us and our customers this works best.

Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On Dec 8, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Combs, Richard wrote:


Scott White wrote:


We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file
around without breaking the links to the graphics. It may
take a little longer to do our books, but I feel it equals
out since we don't have to hassle with broken links. As far
as paginating our books, we just break our files down a
little smaller and this makes the files fast enough to work with.


Why do you have to pass the file around? I'm not sure I even
understand what that means, but if all of a book's FM files are in a
directory, and all its graphics are in a subdirectory of that, then  
you

can pass around the directory without breaking anything.

In fact, more complicated schemes with shared graphics work without
breaking as long as relative paths remain the same (don't cross the  
root

of a drive, or the paths become absolute). So if you mean working
locally and then copying to a server (which is what I do), you just
maintain the same directory structure in both places. In fact,  
there are

utilities that will keep the local and remote directories in sync.

But I'm with Neil -- the biggest advantage of referenced graphics  
for me

is being able to replace screen shots with newer versions and have the
FM docs update automatically when I open them. I update graphics _far_
more often than I move files around.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--






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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Rick Quatro]

In this case, I temper the bad practice statement in my earlier post. If 
your client gets any corruption of by-copy graphics, they can probably just 
rerun the automated system to refresh them. In most cases, however, 
by-reference is preferred.


Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


I understand what you are saying about referenced images, but...

We built software that exports a file out of filemaker and then  imports 
into frame. We wanted to eliminate the problems that folks  have had in 
the past of the referenced images displaying a gray box  when the file is 
moved from one person to another or to a print  shop.  In the Industrial 
Distribution business, which is 95 percent  of our clientele, do not have 
the network structure to run a frame  network per se nor the graphic and 
computer understanding to  eliminate these linking problems easily.


We built this automated system to make it easier for the end user who 
knows very little about databases, image management and desktop 
publishing. With some frame training that I provide, our customers  can 
get a 1000-page catalog done by themselves -- a real pain point  for this 
type of business in the past. You have to realize here that  we are 
dealing with mid-million companies who know only one thing --  how to sell 
products.


With that said, we are developing our latest version where we are  going 
to look into several new enhancements including running  referenced files.


For us and our customers this works best.

Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Combs, Richard]

Scott White wrote: 
 
 I understand what you are saying about referenced images, but...
 
 We built software that exports a file out of filemaker and 
 then imports into frame. snip 

D'oh! You've described this catalog-generating system before -- I just
forgot. 

As Emily Littela would say, Oh. That's different. Never mind. :-)

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




  
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Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Diane Gaskill]

Hi Gillian,

If you are going to even possibly localize your docs, definitely import them by 
reference.  It's very simple to use the same filenames to replace English 
graphics in a directory with translated graphics.  This costs very little.  But 
if the L10N vendor must remove a graphic and manually insert and size a new one 
you will be charged for it.   It will cost you from $8 to $12 per graphic, per 
language.  For example, if you have 100 graphics and 5 languages, it will cost 
you 100 x 5 x $8 = $4000, plus a lot of extra time.  

Second, copying by reference keeps your FM files a lot smaller and they are 
easier to manage.  Less chance of crashing FM because you don't run out of RAM. 
 Files open and save faster too.  Also much easier to edit because the original 
file is easy to edit.  You just click the graphic in FM and it opens the file 
in the original authoring tool.  But there is one drawback, and that is that 
you have to manage the files.  This includes deciding on a reasonable file 
naming scheme, and optionally putting a name or a number in the drawing itself 
so that you can find it when needed.

BTW, I hope you come to Daniel's presentation in Feb.  I plan to be there.

Diane

-Original Message-
From: Gillian Flato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Dec 8, 2006 10:17 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference 

Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.
 
Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.
 
Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?
 
 
 

Thank you,

 

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)

nanometrics

1550 Buckeye Dr. 

Milpitas, CA. 95035

(408.435.9600 x 316

7  408.232.5911

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] .com
blocked::mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 


This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information 
intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended 
recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient, 
disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message 
is strictly prohibited.
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Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Gillian Flato]

Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.

Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.

Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?




Thank you,



 

Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)

nanometrics

1550 Buckeye Dr. 

Milpitas, CA. 95035

(408.435.9600 x 316

7  408.232.5911

* gflato at nanometrics  .com
 




This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information 
intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended 
recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient, 
disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message 
is strictly prohibited.

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Steve Rickaby]

At 10:17 -0800 8/12/06, Gillian Flato wrote:

>We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
>for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
>hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
>build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
>the graphics into the document.
> 
>Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
>have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
>bigger graphics.

You may well be right. Copying graphics in naturally makes the FrameMaker 
source files much larger, and large files make books that take longer to build. 
There may also be something subtler going on, but I suspect this is the guts of 
it.

However, a *lot* of graphics can make books take longer to build, too, 
irrespective of whether they are copied or by reference. As I have recently 
found to my cost, with a book with some thousands of import by reference links.

>Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
>do you guys do?

I think this has been debated on the group before, so the archives might render 
something, but afaik the guts of it is the tradeoff between document size, 
ruggedness and portability. Importing by reference keeps your documents small 
and FrameMaker fast, but the links are frangible. Importing by copy makes your 
documents portable, but bigger. You also lose the ability to update a single 
graphics and have it change everywhere it is used, so there's a version control 
element to this discussion too.

-- 
Steve

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Art Campbell]

Import by reference is the SOP for most shops, I think.

Much smaller FM files and much easier to update and manage the
graphics (both the graphic files themselves and the FM usage of them).
Also, in general, better reproduction, but that depends on the file
format.

May want to print/review/quote the FM Help section on Importing,
Linking, and Exporting.

Art

On 12/8/06, Gillian Flato  wrote:
> Guys,
>
> We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
> for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
> hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
> build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
> the graphics into the document.
>
> Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
> have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
> bigger graphics.
>
> Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
> do you guys do?
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> 
>
> Gillian Flato
>
> Technical Writer (Software)


-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at 
gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
   and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Doug]

IMO, good tech writers don't let other tech writers drive dru--uh,
import graphics by copying into the document.  Bad tech writer, bad,
bad!

--Doug

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Rick Quatro]

The debate will be over the first time one of their imported-by-copy 
graphics gets corrupted and turns into a gray box. Someone will have to know 
what and where the original graphic is, since that data is not stored when 
the graphic is imported by copy. Importing by copy is bad practice.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com


Guys,

We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
the graphics into the document.

Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
bigger graphics.

Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
do you guys do?




Thank you,





Gillian Flato

Technical Writer (Software)

nanometrics

1550 Buckeye Dr.

Milpitas, CA. 95035

(408.435.9600 x 316

7  408.232.5911

* gflato at nanometrics  .com

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Scott White]

We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file around  
without breaking the links to the graphics. It may take a little  
longer to do our books, but I feel it equals out since we don't have  
to hassle with broken links. As far as paginating our books, we just  
break our files down a little smaller and this makes the files fast  
enough to work with.

Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com



On Dec 8, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Gillian Flato wrote:

> Guys,
>
> We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
> for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
> hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
> build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
> the graphics into the document.
>
> Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building  
> process?  I
> have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
> bigger graphics.
>
> Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
> do you guys do?
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> 
>
> Gillian Flato
>
> Technical Writer (Software)
>
> nanometrics
>
> 1550 Buckeye Dr.
>
> Milpitas, CA. 95035
>
> (408.435.9600 x 316
>
> 7  408.232.5911
>
> * gflato at nanometrics  .com
> 
>
>
>
>
> This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential  
> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you  
> are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are not  
> the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or  
> taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite% 
> 40alamark.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Neil Tubb]

Really? While this sounds crazy to me, I suppose if you were not working
off the same network it would be the only way to go. Generally, though,
most TW depts. are working off the same LAN (CMS or not), so sharing is
not an issue.

I just find importing by ref is simple, and for software especially it
makes it easy when updating screenshots.

My 2 cents,
Neil


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+neil.tubb=solacesystems@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+neil.tubb=solacesystems.com at lists.frameusers.com
] On Behalf Of Scott White
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:34 PM
To: Gillian Flato
Cc: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference 

We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file around  
without breaking the links to the graphics. It may take a little  
longer to do our books, but I feel it equals out since we don't have  
to hassle with broken links. As far as paginating our books, we just  
break our files down a little smaller and this makes the files fast  
enough to work with.

Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com



On Dec 8, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Gillian Flato wrote:

> Guys,
>
> We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
> for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
> hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
> build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
> the graphics into the document.
>
> Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building  
> process?  I
> have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
> bigger graphics.
>
> Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
> do you guys do?
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> <mailto:gflato at nanometrics.com>
>
> Gillian Flato
>
> Technical Writer (Software)
>
> nanometrics
>
> 1550 Buckeye Dr.
>
> Milpitas, CA. 95035
>
> (408.435.9600 x 316
>
> 7  408.232.5911
>
> * gflato at nanometrics <mailto:gflato at nanometrics.com> .com
> 
>
>
>
>
> This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential  
> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you  
> are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are not  
> the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or  
> taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited.
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite% 
> 40alamark.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

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Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Combs, Richard]

Scott White wrote:

> We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file 
> around without breaking the links to the graphics. It may 
> take a little longer to do our books, but I feel it equals 
> out since we don't have to hassle with broken links. As far 
> as paginating our books, we just break our files down a 
> little smaller and this makes the files fast enough to work with. 

Why do you have to "pass the file around"? I'm not sure I even
understand what that means, but if all of a book's FM files are in a
directory, and all its graphics are in a subdirectory of that, then you
can "pass around" the directory without breaking anything. 

In fact, more complicated schemes with shared graphics work without
breaking as long as relative paths remain the same (don't cross the root
of a drive, or the paths become absolute). So if you mean working
locally and then copying to a server (which is what I do), you just
maintain the same directory structure in both places. In fact, there are
utilities that will keep the local and remote directories in sync.

But I'm with Neil -- the biggest advantage of referenced graphics for me
is being able to replace screen shots with newer versions and have the
FM docs update automatically when I open them. I update graphics _far_
more often than I move files around. 

IMHO, YMMV, etc. 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Scott White]

I understand what you are saying about referenced images, but...

We built software that exports a file out of filemaker and then  
imports into frame. We wanted to eliminate the problems that folks  
have had in the past of the referenced images displaying a gray box  
when the file is moved from one person to another or to a print  
shop.  In the Industrial Distribution business, which is 95 percent  
of our clientele, do not have the network structure to run a frame  
network per se nor the graphic and computer understanding to  
eliminate these linking problems easily.

We built this automated system to make it easier for the end user who  
knows very little about databases, image management and desktop  
publishing. With some frame training that I provide, our customers  
can get a 1000-page catalog done by themselves -- a real pain point  
for this type of business in the past. You have to realize here that  
we are dealing with mid-million companies who know only one thing --  
how to sell products.

With that said, we are developing our latest version where we are  
going to look into several new enhancements including running  
referenced files.

For us and our customers this works best.

Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com



On Dec 8, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Combs, Richard wrote:

> Scott White wrote:
>
>> We ALWAYS copy into document. This allows us to pass the file
>> around without breaking the links to the graphics. It may
>> take a little longer to do our books, but I feel it equals
>> out since we don't have to hassle with broken links. As far
>> as paginating our books, we just break our files down a
>> little smaller and this makes the files fast enough to work with.
>
> Why do you have to "pass the file around"? I'm not sure I even
> understand what that means, but if all of a book's FM files are in a
> directory, and all its graphics are in a subdirectory of that, then  
> you
> can "pass around" the directory without breaking anything.
>
> In fact, more complicated schemes with shared graphics work without
> breaking as long as relative paths remain the same (don't cross the  
> root
> of a drive, or the paths become absolute). So if you mean working
> locally and then copying to a server (which is what I do), you just
> maintain the same directory structure in both places. In fact,  
> there are
> utilities that will keep the local and remote directories in sync.
>
> But I'm with Neil -- the biggest advantage of referenced graphics  
> for me
> is being able to replace screen shots with newer versions and have the
> FM docs update automatically when I open them. I update graphics _far_
> more often than I move files around.
>
> IMHO, YMMV, etc.
>
> Richard
>
>
> --
> Richard G. Combs
> Senior Technical Writer
> Polycom, Inc.
> richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
> 303-223-5111
> --
> rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
> 303-777-0436
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Rick Quatro]

In this case, I temper the "bad practice" statement in my earlier post. If 
your client gets any corruption of by-copy graphics, they can probably just 
rerun the automated system to "refresh" them. In most cases, however, 
by-reference is preferred.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com

>I understand what you are saying about referenced images, but...
>
> We built software that exports a file out of filemaker and then  imports 
> into frame. We wanted to eliminate the problems that folks  have had in 
> the past of the referenced images displaying a gray box  when the file is 
> moved from one person to another or to a print  shop.  In the Industrial 
> Distribution business, which is 95 percent  of our clientele, do not have 
> the network structure to run a frame  network per se nor the graphic and 
> computer understanding to  eliminate these linking problems easily.
>
> We built this automated system to make it easier for the end user who 
> knows very little about databases, image management and desktop 
> publishing. With some frame training that I provide, our customers  can 
> get a 1000-page catalog done by themselves -- a real pain point  for this 
> type of business in the past. You have to realize here that  we are 
> dealing with mid-million companies who know only one thing --  how to sell 
> products.
>
> With that said, we are developing our latest version where we are  going 
> to look into several new enhancements including running  referenced files.
>
> For us and our customers this works best.
>
> Scott White
> Media Production Manager
> Implementation Coordinator
> 210-704-8239
> swhite at alamark.com

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Combs, Richard]

Scott White wrote: 

> I understand what you are saying about referenced images, but...
> 
> We built software that exports a file out of filemaker and 
> then imports into frame.  

D'oh! You've described this catalog-generating system before -- I just
forgot. 

As Emily Littela would say, "Oh. That's different. Never mind." :-)

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference

[Diane Gaskill]

Hi Gillian,

If you are going to even possibly localize your docs, definitely import them by 
reference.  It's very simple to use the same filenames to replace English 
graphics in a directory with translated graphics.  This costs very little.  But 
if the L10N vendor must remove a graphic and manually insert and size a new one 
you will be charged for it.   It will cost you from $8 to $12 per graphic, per 
language.  For example, if you have 100 graphics and 5 languages, it will cost 
you 100 x 5 x $8 = $4000, plus a lot of extra time.  

Second, copying by reference keeps your FM files a lot smaller and they are 
easier to manage.  Less chance of crashing FM because you don't run out of RAM. 
 Files open and save faster too.  Also much easier to edit because the original 
file is easy to edit.  You just click the graphic in FM and it opens the file 
in the original authoring tool.  But there is one drawback, and that is that 
you have to manage the files.  This includes deciding on a reasonable file 
naming scheme, and optionally putting a name or a number in the drawing itself 
so that you can find it when needed.

BTW, I hope you come to Daniel's presentation in Feb.  I plan to be there.

Diane

-Original Message-
>From: Gillian Flato 
>Sent: Dec 8, 2006 10:17 AM
>To: framers at frameusers.com
>Subject: Copy into document graphics vs. Import by Reference 
>
>Guys,
>
>We're having a debate in my TW team about whether to use Import by Ref
>for graphics or Copy into Document. I always Import by reference. The
>hardware writers copy into document. Their books take much longer to
>build than mine, and I am convinced that it's because they are copying
>the graphics into the document.
> 
>Am I right, is this what's causing their slow book building process?  I
>have much bigger books than they do, in terms of pages, but they have
>bigger graphics.
> 
>Also, what are some arguments for importing by ref vs copying in? What
>do you guys do?
> 
> 
> 
>
>Thank you,
>
> 
>
><mailto:gflato at nanometrics.com> 
>
>Gillian Flato
>
>Technical Writer (Software)
>
>nanometrics
>
>1550 Buckeye Dr. 
>
>Milpitas, CA. 95035
>
>(408.435.9600 x 316
>
>7  408.232.5911
>
>* gflato at nanometrics <mailto:gflato at nanometrics.com> .com
> 
>
> 
>
>
>This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information 
>intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended 
>recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient, 
>disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message 
>is strictly prohibited.
>___
>
>
>You are currently subscribed to Framers as dgcaller at earthlink.net.
>
>Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
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>
>Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
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