RE: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
I appreciate that some you are afraid that the US will lose jobs to India and such countries. But take a bigger perspective on this, will you? If India (et.al.) are not involved with Western technology - if they don't get any hi-tech jobs and industries - how are they ever going to be able to buy American (or Danish, for that matter) products and services? Only by sharing our wealth (and jobs - even if it hurts) can we all survive and thrive in the long run. -Niels ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Niels: - how are they ever going to be able to buy American (or Danish, for - that matter) products and services? Only by sharing our - wealth (and - jobs - even if it hurts) can we all survive and thrive in the long - run. John: - Niels...a point from both sides... - - - If you can't get through the short run, the long run - doesn't matter. You're looking at it from the perspective of - the collective. - Others are looking at it from the perspective of paying - their gas and oil bill for the next 90 days and making their - kid's tuition payment on the coming first of the month. Yeah, well, I think that if we don't make it in the long run, who cares about the short run. As for the energy bills and tuition system in the US, and the welfare system in general, this is not the place to discuss that (I know what you mean, though). The US seems to be working up its trillion dollar debt on other things at the moment... - - Accept that a position should go to the best value, which - is a balance between cost and quality. Then get whatever - training you need to tip the balance in favor of quality; if - not for your current employer, one that allows you to make - the transition as quick as possible. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Anyway - I just wanted to pitch in with a little global outlook. End of sermon! ;o) -Niels ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
I appreciate that some you are afraid that the US will lose jobs to India and such countries. But take a bigger perspective on this, will you? If India (et.al.) are not involved with "Western" technology - if they don't get any hi-tech jobs and industries - how are they ever going to be able to buy American (or Danish, for that matter) products and services? Only by sharing our wealth (and jobs - even if it hurts) can we all survive and thrive in the long run. -Niels
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
> how are they ever going to be able to buy American (or Danish, for > that matter) products and services? Only by sharing our wealth (and > jobs - even if it hurts) can we all survive and thrive in the long > run. Niels...a point from both sides... - If you can't get through the short run, the long run doesn't matter. You're looking at it from the perspective of the collective. Others are looking at it from the perspective of paying their gas and oil bill for the next 90 days and making their kid's tuition payment on the coming first of the month. - Accept that a position should go to the best value, which is a balance between cost and quality. Then get whatever training you need to tip the balance in favor of quality; if not for your current employer, one that allows you to make the transition as quick as possible. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Niels: -> > how are they ever going to be able to buy American (or Danish, for -> > that matter) products and services? Only by sharing our -> wealth (and -> > jobs - even if it hurts) can we all survive and thrive in the long -> > run. John: -> Niels...a point from both sides... -> -> - If you can't get through the short run, the long run -> doesn't matter. You're looking at it from the perspective of -> the collective. -> Others are looking at it from the perspective of paying -> their gas and oil bill for the next 90 days and making their -> kid's tuition payment on the coming first of the month. Yeah, well, I think that if we don't make it in the long run, who cares about the short run. As for the energy bills and tuition system in the US, and the welfare system in general, this is not the place to discuss that (I know what you mean, though). The US seems to be working up its trillion dollar debt on other things at the moment... -> - Accept that a position should go to the best value, which -> is a balance between cost and quality. Then get whatever -> training you need to tip the balance in favor of quality; if -> not for your current employer, one that allows you to make -> the transition as quick as possible. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Anyway - I just wanted to pitch in with a little global outlook. End of sermon! ;o) -Niels
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Outsourcing is not an evil. It's evolution, and was bound to happen as other countries break into the tech sphere. Balance will eventually be met, as with anything. The trick is not how to keep jobs in higher-pay regions, but how to deliver greater value. From a business standpoint, sure, it's about value but is there really value in outsourcing, or is it just cheaper? I did a contract at a company that had outsourced its Tech Writing to India but after seeing how poorly the Indians wrote English, they brought TW back to America. Another company I worked at outsourced QA to Russia, bragging to us how they saved 50%. But guess what! The Russians took twice as long to do anything and many times, the quality was not as good, so there went there 50% savings. Not to mention the low morale around the office by the Americans who saw their jobs going overseas. Many people spent more time gossiping about whose job was going next than doing work. Many other people around the office were just pissed all the time, thereby lowering their productivity, and others left, thereby screwing the company since they were needed. For the government, it's a bad deal. They lose a lot of tax base when workers are laid off and don't pay as much in taxes, not to mention the loss in unemployment dollars they have to shell out. So I don't think it is such a great thing. -Gillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Swallow Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Framers Subject: Re: RE: Release Date for FrameMaker 8? Not entirely correct re: outsourcing. There are many examples of companies cancelling their outsourced labor and bringing the work back into their home offices (I haven't the time or desire to cite, but there have been several articles in trade magazines over the past few months that attest to this). As with anything, if the benefit isn't there, the plan is aborted. I believe, though, that the FM work isn't outsourced but is actually housed by Adobe India - this is a very different thing, and I can see logic in this. Costs of workers is only a factor if the workers can deliver and if the communication is good. Outsourcing is not an evil. It's evolution, and was bound to happen as other countries break into the tech sphere. Balance will eventually be met, as with anything. The trick is not how to keep jobs in higher-pay regions, but how to deliver greater value. Bill On 5/16/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't expect Adobe to bring back any jobs. Once the outsourcing bug hits, those jobs are lost forever. On one hand, I understand Adobe's reasoning -- the cost of a worker in the U.S or Canada is much higher than a worker elsewhere. On the other hand, that's one more job that's gone overseas, so the business profits at the expense of the host nation. I'm a bit more partial to my country than I am to any particular business that operates out of it. -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/gflato%40nanometrics .com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are not the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, I don't think the companies that are saving money by outsourcing are necessarily passing on the savings to the consumer. I'd have to see some pretty firm research on that before I'd believe it. Anne The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is PROHIBITED. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately. Thank you. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Yes but the companies are not strictly accountable to the consumer, but rather to the shareholders. And shareholders rarely complain about greater profits. ljk ___ Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 05/16/2006 02:02:08 PM: Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, I don't think the companies that are saving money by outsourcing are necessarily passing on the savings to the consumer. I'd have to see some pretty firm research on that before I'd believe it. Anne The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is PROHIBITED. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately. Thank you. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers. com/mailman/options/framers/laura_j_kirk%40bd.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. - ** IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOR RECIPIENTS IN THE U.S.A: This message may constitute an advertisement of BD group's products or services or a solicitation of interest in them. If this is such a message and you would like to opt out of receiving future advertisements or solicitations from this BD group, please forward this e-mail to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** This message (which includes any attachments) is intended only for the designated recipient(s). It may contain confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to attorney-client privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated recipient, you may not review, use, copy or distribute this message. If you received this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank You ** Corporate Headquarters Mailing Address: BD (Becton, Dickinson and Company) 1 Becton Drive Franklin Lakes, NJ 07417 U.S.A. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Bureeda opines: And I agree that I don't see a lot of profits passed on to consumers (refer to your local gas pump for more info). To me this gets us back to the original proposition, that the loss of jobs can be compensated by an increase in value. Not always of course, as one or more others argue, but in a thriving economy (like the one we're now witnessing in our off-shoring society), that's more likely than not to happen. As for profits lining owner's pockets, that's not such a bad thing when you own a share or more of the company as many of our neighbors do. That makes ownership a good thing, as more than one politician insists. Let's not lose sight of the fact that value has many meanings, one of which is the best compromise between quality and price. For given quality if the business lowers the cost, it enhances the value to the consumer. And what's wrong with benefiting consumers? ~ Bill ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, sure, but what about us writers? We won't be very appreciative of the trick if we're reduced to slinging hash at McDonalds. And if it reduces us to fry cooks, you'd be hard pressed to convince us it *isn't* an evil. I argue that if you are reduced to slinging hash then you didn't do your due diligence to keep yourself marketable and desirable. -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
>>Outsourcing is not an evil. It's evolution, and was bound to happen as other countries break into the tech sphere. Balance will eventually be met, as with anything. The trick is not how to keep jobs in higher-pay regions, but how to deliver greater value.
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
>Outsourcing is not an evil. It's evolution, and was bound to happen as > other countries break into the tech sphere. Balance will eventually be > met, as with anything. The trick is not how to keep jobs in higher-pay > regions, but how to deliver greater value. Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, sure, but what about us writers? We won't be very appreciative of the "trick" if we're reduced to slinging hash at McDonalds. And if it reduces us to fry cooks, you'd be hard pressed to convince us it *isn't* an evil. --Doug
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
> I did a contract at a company that had outsourced its > Tech Writing to India but after seeing how poorly the > Indians wrote English, they brought TW back to America. ... > > So I don't think it is such a great thing. To come to the conclusion that from hearing about ones that didn't work, the concept is flawed, is the wrong conclusion. The minority are the ones you hear about with problems. The majority you don't hear about are the ones that go as they should and it just becomes a normal part of the business model. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "So long and thanks for all the fish."
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
> Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, I don't think the companies that are saving money by outsourcing are necessarily passing on the savings to the consumer. I'd have to see some pretty firm research on that before I'd believe it. Anne The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is PROHIBITED. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately. Thank you.
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Yes but the companies are not strictly accountable to "the consumer," but rather to "the shareholders." And shareholders rarely complain about greater profits. ljk ___ Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before. framers-bounces+laura_j_kirk=bd.com at lists.frameusers.com wrote on 05/16/2006 02:02:08 PM: > > Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, > > I don't think the companies that are saving money by outsourcing are > necessarily passing on the savings to the consumer. I'd have to see some > pretty firm research on that before I'd believe it. > > Anne > > > > The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains > confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended > recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this e-mail is PROHIBITED. If you have > received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete > the e-mail immediately. Thank you. > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as Laura_J_Kirk at bd.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit http://lists.frameusers. > com/mailman/options/framers/laura_j_kirk%40bd.com > > Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. - ** IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOR RECIPIENTS IN THE U.S.A: This message may constitute an advertisement of BD group's products or services or a solicitation of interest in them. If this is such a message and you would like to opt out of receiving future advertisements or solicitations from this BD group, please forward this e-mail to the optoutbygroup at bd.com. ** This message (which includes any attachments) is intended only for the designated recipient(s). It may contain confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to attorney-client privilege or other confidentiality protections. If you are not a designated recipient, you may not review, use, copy or distribute this message. If you received this in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank You ** Corporate Headquarters Mailing Address: BD (Becton, Dickinson and Company) 1 Becton Drive Franklin Lakes, NJ 07417 U.S.A.
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Just a "minor" point of semantics: outsourcing and "offshoring" (outsourcing to another country) are two very different things. Anyone who has done consulting work has engaged in supporting their client's outsourcing effort. The consulting firm where I learned the ropes as a technical writer was based in Dallas and all our clients were large firms, many of them global. I now work for a leader in the product development outsourcing industry. We're located in Plano, Texas, and all our work is done here. Although, interestingly, several of our clients have headquarters abroad. The reality is, we work in a global economy. Superior work will prevail, as it always has, over poor work. I would also agree that the central (although by no means the only) motivation for outsourcing in most businesses is increased profit. And I agree that I don't see a lot of profits passed on to consumers (refer to your local gas pump for more info). Bureeda Bruner Paragon Innovations, Inc. Phone: 972-265-6000 email: bureeda at paragoninnovations.com Website: www.paragoninnovations.com Success Stories: www.paragoninnovations.com/ng/success.shtml Embedded systems design from start to success -Original Message- From: framers-bounces+bureeda=paragoninnovations@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces+bureeda=paragoninnovations.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Flato Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 12:46 PM To: framers at frameusers.com Subject: Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8? >>Outsourcing is not an evil. It's evolution, and was bound to happen as other countries break into the tech sphere. Balance will eventually be met, as with anything. The trick is not how to keep jobs in higher-pay regions, but how to deliver greater value.
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
Bureeda opines: <> To me this gets us back to the original proposition, that the loss of jobs can be compensated by an increase in value. Not always of course, as one or more others argue, but in a thriving economy (like the one we're now witnessing in our "off-shoring" society), that's more likely than not to happen. As for profits lining owner's pockets, that's not such a bad thing when you own a share or more of the company as many of our neighbors do. That makes ownership a good thing, as more than one politician insists. Let's not lose sight of the fact that value has many meanings, one of which is the best compromise between quality and price. For given quality if the business lowers the cost, it enhances the value to the consumer. And what's wrong with benefiting consumers? ~ Bill
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
> From a business standpoint, sure, it's about value but is there really > value in outsourcing, or is it just cheaper? Talent is talent. It all depends on what you need. If you can get what you need cheaper and without hassle, generally that route wins. > I did a contract at a company that had outsourced its Tech Writing to > India but after seeing how poorly the Indians wrote English, they > brought TW back to America. I think you maybe just outsourced blindly. English is a standard language in India, and just about everyone I know in India has a better command of it than I do! ;-) Of course they speak the Queen's English, which is a bit different from my Yank tongue. ;-) > Another company I worked at outsourced QA to Russia, bragging to us how > they saved 50%. But guess what! The Russians took twice as long to do > anything and many times, the quality was not as good, so there went > there 50% savings. Not to mention the low morale around the office by > the Americans who saw their jobs going overseas. Many people spent more > time gossiping about whose job was going next than doing work. Many > other people around the office were just pissed all the time, thereby > lowering their productivity, and others left, thereby screwing the > company since they were needed. Yes, quality is an issue, but my guess is that there were multiple factors contributing to quality, from your company possibly not doing its homework to outsource to the right talent to the remote group just not having their act together (and everything in between). What most companies forget is that "outsourcing" is nothing more than hiring (contract or perm) in bulk in another location. As for morale back "home", it's indeed an issue. Unfortunately there's nothing you can do about the morale issue except not outsource, which may cause jobs to be eliminated rather than go overseas... It's a big puzzle, and one for which there is no easy solution. However, that doesn't mean it's "our" place to sit around and mope about it. What is everyone doing to remain marketable in this changing economic and commercial landscape? > For the government, it's a bad deal. They lose a lot of tax base when > workers are laid off and don't pay as much in taxes, not to mention the > loss in unemployment dollars they have to shell out. I'll give you that, but I argue it's not merely outsourcing that's to blame for unemployment. > So I don't think it is such a great thing. To each their own. But the issue is much bigger than keeping jobs local. If the company can't get where it needs to go given their funding and expenses... -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
Outsourcing: Was Release Date for FrameMaker 8?
> Greater value? To whom? The consumer, perhaps, sure, but what about > us writers? We won't be very appreciative of the "trick" if we're > reduced to slinging hash at McDonalds. And if it reduces us to fry > cooks, you'd be hard pressed to convince us it *isn't* an evil. I argue that if you are reduced to slinging hash then you didn't do your due diligence to keep yourself marketable and desirable. -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
