Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Darrin M. Gorski]

>  In this instance, one is.

For you maybe, but clearly not for everyone.

> But honestly, if you want to multitask DOS apps, use an OS designed to
> do that: namely Windows, or in the early 1990s, OS/2 2 or later.

Should I use dosemu? ;)

Seriously though, thanks for the 'advice' but I have it all worked out.

- Darrin

On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 6:41 PM Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 21:29, Darrin M. Gorski  wrote:
> >
> > > Same _time_? Ek! That sounds like a recipe for file corruption.
> > > No, not tried and don't want to. But surely that isn't what you meant?
> >
> > Yes, that's exactly what I mean - concurrency.  My DOS use case is a
> multi-node BBS which needs a (safe) shared file system.  (solved with MSNET
> and Samba)
>
> I was replying to Jim, not you.
>
> But honestly, if you want to multitask DOS apps, use an OS designed to
> do that: namely Windows, or in the early 1990s, OS/2 2 or later.
>
> Doing it on an alien OS not designed for it sounds suicidal to me, TBH
> -- to be asking for file/data corruption.
> >
> > I would guess that linux people running DOS probably also virtualize
> other OSes (windows and linux come to mind) - why use multiple tools?
>
> That is precisely my question.
>
> I use different tools for different jobs if there is a particular tool
> that is better for a particular job. In this instance, one is.
>
> --
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> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Travis Siegel]

On 3/14/2022 6:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 23:27, Travis Siegel  wrote:


How does one tell which version of WSL is in use?

https://pureinfotech.com/check-wsl-version-windows-10/

The command:

wsl -l -v

... should tell you.


Only it doesn't.  It only lists the linuxes (is that a word?) I have 
installed, but nothing about version.  On the other hand, the help 
screen does mention wsl2 when talking about installing new linux 
distros, so I'm assuming I have wsl2. 





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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Jim Hall]

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 22:35, Jim Hall  wrote:
> >
> > Yup, that's exactly how I used FreeDOS in DOSEMU in the 1990s. I'd
> > start up DOSEMU running FreeDOS, then start up GNU Emacs on Linux. I'd
> > edit my source files in Emacs (Linux), and compile them on FreeDOS
> > (DOSEMU). And I didn't close Emacs when I compiled, I just saved my
> > files then switched windows. That way, if I had a compile-time error
> > (missing semicolon, undeclared variable, whatever) I switched windows
> > to make a quick fix in Emacs, saved, then switched back to DOSEMU
> > recompile on FreeDOS. Worked great! I wrote a lot of early FreeDOS
> > stuff that way.


On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 5:44 PM Liam Proven  wrote:
>
> OK. You already answered that, or most of that, BTW...
>
> > For me, it's just that I stopped using DOSEMU 1.x a long time ago when
> > no one maintained it.
>
> Why does that matter?
>
> Maybe it just did all its programmers wanted, and so it didn't need more work?
>
> I am aware of this position but I don't reeally understand it.
>
> I mean, are we not all here because we want to run DOS apps? Because
> most of them went out of development and support about a quarter of a
> century ago. But they still work, they still do the job, so why not
> use the same old tool?
>

After a while, the unmaintained DOSEMU 1.x package (Fedora) didn't
work on newer Linux kernels. DOSEMU relies on some Linux kernel
infrastructure to do its thing, and the Linux kernel was getting
updated but DOSEMU 1.x was not. I don't recall exactly what needed
fixing because it was so long ago. I think one problem was a security
fix in the Linux kernel that blocked DOSEMU from running, and to get
DOSEMU to run you had to do something with the Linux kernel.

I recall someone had released unofficial patches to DOSEMU 1.x to make
it run on more recent Linux kernels at the time, but every time I
upgraded Linux (new Fedora release every 6 months or so) I had to
track down new fixes for DOSEMU and apply them myself. Maybe that was
a Fedora thing and this problem didn't happen on other distros, but I
run Fedora so that was the issue I had.

My options at the time were to keep chasing down fixes for an
unmaintained DOSEMU 1.x, or run QEMU which worked fine and didn't
require constant fixing. I chose the route that required less work for
me.

As Eric pointed out, DOSEMU 1.x is old stuff now anyway. DOSEMU2 is
the current version.


If DOSEMU 1.x works for you, that's great. Go for it. It didn't work
out for me, so I found something else. There are lots of ways to boot
FreeDOS, and that's cool. Some people like PCem, others like QEMU, or
Bochs, or 86box, or VirtualBox.

Let's keep this in perspective: Travis originally asked "[..] What do
I need to do to get dosemu running under ubuntu which is running under
windows 10. [..] Unless someone has another free alternative that is
accessible." And I didn't realize until Travis's email from an hour
ago that he uses a screen reader (hence "accessible") so focused on
"unless someone has another free alternative." Running FreeDOS under
Linux under WSL on Windows seemed like a lot just to run FreeDOS, so I
suggested QEMU because all major Linux distros include it by default.
My 150-word reply seems to have kicked off a tangential and long reply
thread asking why I don't use DOSEMU.

Again: There are lots of ways to boot FreeDOS, and that's cool. If
DOSEMU works for you, that's great and I'm happy for you. I happen to
use something else.


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Travis Siegel]

On 3/14/2022 9:34 AM, Sean Warner wrote:
On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 12:08 PM Robert Riebisch  
wrote:


Hi Travis,

> (probably a silly question, but it would help me to be able to
run dos
> apps this way, unless someone has another free alternative that is
> accessible).

Maybe http://takeda-toshiya.my.coocan.jp/msdos/ is already enough on
Windows 10 x64?


If you just want to run a 16-bit DOS application in Windows then it 
might just run if you are using Windows 10 32-bit. Windows will ask 
you to enable a program called NTVDM to enable that.


I recently discovered NTVDMx64 which is a port of Microsofts NTVDM. It 
got my 16-bit DOS application to run just fine IN Windows 10 64-bit... 
no need for DOS or any emulators.

https://github.com/leecher1337/ntvdmx64
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/ntvdmx64.html
I'll give this one a look, it may do what I want.


Thanks for the pointer.

I've had zero luck getting dos apps to work on win10, 32 for 64-bit, 
every time I try to run them, that window just freezes, and I'm told 
this version of windows doesn't support 16-bit apps. Even under win8.1 I 
had similar results.  Is this something you'd need to activate with the 
compatibility wizard or something?


That's really the only reason I was wondering if wsl linux running 
dosemu would do the trick. :)



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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 23:27, Travis Siegel  wrote:

> How does one tell which version of WSL is in use?

https://pureinfotech.com/check-wsl-version-windows-10/

The command:

wsl -l -v

... should tell you.

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 22:35, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> Yup, that's exactly how I used FreeDOS in DOSEMU in the 1990s. I'd
> start up DOSEMU running FreeDOS, then start up GNU Emacs on Linux. I'd
> edit my source files in Emacs (Linux), and compile them on FreeDOS
> (DOSEMU). And I didn't close Emacs when I compiled, I just saved my
> files then switched windows. That way, if I had a compile-time error
> (missing semicolon, undeclared variable, whatever) I switched windows
> to make a quick fix in Emacs, saved, then switched back to DOSEMU
> recompile on FreeDOS. Worked great! I wrote a lot of early FreeDOS
> stuff that way.

OK. You already answered that, or most of that, BTW...

> For me, it's just that I stopped using DOSEMU 1.x a long time ago when
> no one maintained it.

Why does that matter?

Maybe it just did all its programmers wanted, and so it didn't need more work?

I am aware of this position but I don't reeally understand it.

I mean, are we not all here because we want to run DOS apps? Because
most of them went out of development and support about a quarter of a
century ago. But they still work, they still do the job, so why not
use the same old tool?


> I found other solutions to booting FreeDOS on
> Linux, and those solutions work fine for me, so I don't need to go
> back to DOSEMU. DOSEMU is fine (and I hear they've done a lot of work
> on DOSEMU2) but it's not what I use. These days, I use QEMU and
> VirtualBox.

Well, AFAICS, because it was easier, smaller, faster, and offered
better integration with the host OS. Aren't those reason enough?

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 21:29, Darrin M. Gorski  wrote:
>
> > Same _time_? Ek! That sounds like a recipe for file corruption.
> > No, not tried and don't want to. But surely that isn't what you meant?
>
> Yes, that's exactly what I mean - concurrency.  My DOS use case is a 
> multi-node BBS which needs a (safe) shared file system.  (solved with MSNET 
> and Samba)

I was replying to Jim, not you.

But honestly, if you want to multitask DOS apps, use an OS designed to
do that: namely Windows, or in the early 1990s, OS/2 2 or later.

Doing it on an alien OS not designed for it sounds suicidal to me, TBH
-- to be asking for file/data corruption.
>
> I would guess that linux people running DOS probably also virtualize other 
> OSes (windows and linux come to mind) - why use multiple tools?

That is precisely my question.

I use different tools for different jobs if there is a particular tool
that is better for a particular job. In this instance, one is.

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Travis Siegel]

On 3/14/2022 7:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 06:17, Jim Hall  wrote:

Another free alternative is QEMU, which should be available (and probably 
already installed by default) in every major Linux distro.

I don't see them as being the same thing at all.

QEMU is a VM. Sure you can run DOS but you can run any OS under a VM.

The point of DOSemu is that it runs DOS like a program under Linux.
It's not a VM and it doesn't work like a VM.


Yeah, and this is exactly what I need.  Because I use a screen reader, 
using a bare metal system (or a hypervisor type starting process), means 
I won't get the host os infrastructure, which means no screen reader 
unless I install one from scratch on the system itself.  I (currently) 
don't have any way to do this on self-contained oses which are protected 
from the host environment.  Thus the dosemu path, since (interestingly 
enough) WSL allows me to use my windows screen reader (NVDA) to read the 
linux output, which in turn (I'd guess) would allow me to also view the 
dos output.





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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

I hope you are all aware of the fact
that dosemu is totally outdated, only
dosemu2 is fresh at the moment:

http://dosemu2.github.io/dosemu2/

It has daily-built packages available
for Ubuntu, Fedora and OpenSuSE :-)

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 12:49 PM Liam Proven  wrote:
>[..]
> >  but rather that FreeDOS (running in DOSEMU) and Linux
> > can access the same files at the same time via a shared folder.
>
> Same files, yes.
>
> Shared folder? No. Why DOSemu was valuable *to me* is that I *didn't*
> need a shared folder: everything DOS could see was Linux folders,
> including its C drive and my home directory and so on.
>
> Same _time_? Ek! That sounds like a recipe for file corruption.
> No, not tried and don't want to. But surely that isn't what you meant?

Yup, that's exactly how I used FreeDOS in DOSEMU in the 1990s. I'd
start up DOSEMU running FreeDOS, then start up GNU Emacs on Linux. I'd
edit my source files in Emacs (Linux), and compile them on FreeDOS
(DOSEMU). And I didn't close Emacs when I compiled, I just saved my
files then switched windows. That way, if I had a compile-time error
(missing semicolon, undeclared variable, whatever) I switched windows
to make a quick fix in Emacs, saved, then switched back to DOSEMU
recompile on FreeDOS. Worked great! I wrote a lot of early FreeDOS
stuff that way.


[..]
> TBH I am a bit surprised at this mailing list's apparent position on DOSemu.
>
> FreeDOS is the default OS supplied with DOSemu 1 and has been for many
> many years. DOSemu 1 still works and is still included in many
> distros, e.g. openSUSE. It's gone from Ubuntu 20.04 but it was there
> in 18.04 and still works. It's easy to add.
>
> For me, it had multiple advantages that VMs don't have, so I am
> puzzled that it sounds like nobody uses it any more and everyone
> considers that it's gone away.
>

For me, it's just that I stopped using DOSEMU 1.x a long time ago when
no one maintained it. I found other solutions to booting FreeDOS on
Linux, and those solutions work fine for me, so I don't need to go
back to DOSEMU. DOSEMU is fine (and I hear they've done a lot of work
on DOSEMU2) but it's not what I use. These days, I use QEMU and
VirtualBox.

It's like this: I used to be a Fortran programmer doing scientific
computing as an undergraduate research intern working in a research
lab (early 1990s). After the internship, I didn't need to write
programs in Fortran anymore, so I stopped using it. I had other
programming languages (such as C) that met my programming needs, so I
wrote new programs in those languages. Fortran is fine, but it's not
what I use. Fortran has a purpose and solves a need, but those needs
are not mine.


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Darrin M. Gorski]

> Other than that I don't really consider dosemu (or DOSBox) anything
> other than a "Virtual Machine" with some DOS-specific knacks.

Or rather, "a 'virtual machine' that only supports DOS".

- Darrin


On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 4:13 PM C. Masloch  wrote:

> On at 2022-03-14 18:47 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
> >> I don't agree that this feature "makes DOS apps part of the apps on
> >> the computer"
> >
> > DOS apps (not games but productivity applications) are by nature text
> > mode apps, with only a few modern exceptions which probably won't work
> > well on DOSemu anyway.
> >
> > All xNix text-mode apps are designed and intended to exchange
> > information by means of plain text: either text files, or pipes.
> >
> > DOS apps under DOSemu *windows* work on whatever is in the Linux
> > filesystem, and that generally includes the ability to import or
> > export plain-text files. And if you run them without graphics support,
> > you can pipe their output to other shell commands.
> >
> > For me, that means that DOS apps can be used alongside with, and
> > interact with, Linux apps.  That is what I was getting at when I said
> > that they work alongside Linux apps, as just another type of binary
> > you can run -- in a way that is _not_ true of DOS inside a VM.
>
> Some things to note:
>
> 1. Yes, you can use your Linux terminal (dosemu mode -t or mode -dumb)
> to do your DOS application's I/O. This is fairly unique, although qemu's
> -curses mode is similar to dosemu's -t.
>
> 2. dosemu runs an actual DOS system, traditionally FreeDOS. On the
> contrary, DOSBox is mostly used without a proper DOS, running its own
> operating system shims. (dosemu2 is blurring the distinction a bit with
> fdpp, which is a FreeDOS kernel port that runs in 32-bit or 64-bit host
> code and replaces the proper DOS kernel you can use otherwise. fdpp
> *only* runs in dosemu2 so far.)
>
> 3. The major feature of dosemu is certainly its filesystem redirector,
> based on the MachFS DOS redirector, which allows you to access host
> directories as DOS drives, and supports (to some extent) simultaneous
> accesses from Linux and DOS. (DOSBox has this too, but IIRC only for its
> built-in OS, not for when you boot an actual DOS instead.)
>
> Other than that I don't really consider dosemu (or DOSBox) anything
> other than a "Virtual Machine" with some DOS-specific knacks.
>
> Regards,
> ecm
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Darrin M. Gorski]

> Same _time_? Ek! That sounds like a recipe for file corruption.
> No, not tried and don't want to. But surely that isn't what you meant?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean - concurrency.  My DOS use case is a
multi-node BBS which needs a (safe) shared file system.  (solved with MSNET
and Samba)

> And if you run them without graphics support,
> you can pipe their output to other shell commands.

If you use '-display curses'' you'll get a text-mode display similar to
what you see with dosemu, so you can select text, etc.  Personally I use
VNC displays so I only have to see them when I want to.

> TBH I am a bit surprised at this mailing list's apparent position on
DOSemu.

I would guess that linux people running DOS probably also virtualize other
OSes (windows and linux come to mind) - why use multiple tools?

- Darrin


On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 1:48 PM Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 18:21, Jim Hall  wrote:
> >
> > From how you described it, I assumed you were talking about DEXE's.
> > You said "runs DOS like a program under Linux" which is very similar
> > to the "DOSEMU apps" (DEXE's) I mentioned.
> > http://www.dosemu.org/docs/README/0.99/README-4.html
>
> No. In fact I had never even heard of that before. Sounds like it was
> probably very useful a quarter of a century ago. :-)
>
> You know the maxim about "never assume", right? ;-)
>
> > I don't agree that this feature "makes DOS apps part of the apps on
> > the computer"
>
> DOS apps (not games but productivity applications) are by nature text
> mode apps, with only a few modern exceptions which probably won't work
> well on DOSemu anyway.
>
> All xNix text-mode apps are designed and intended to exchange
> information by means of plain text: either text files, or pipes.
>
> DOS apps under DOSemu *windows* work on whatever is in the Linux
> filesystem, and that generally includes the ability to import or
> export plain-text files. And if you run them without graphics support,
> you can pipe their output to other shell commands.
>
> For me, that means that DOS apps can be used alongside with, and
> interact with, Linux apps.  That is what I was getting at when I said
> that they work alongside Linux apps, as just another type of binary
> you can run -- in a way that is _not_ true of DOS inside a VM.
>
> >  but rather that FreeDOS (running in DOSEMU) and Linux
> > can access the same files at the same time via a shared folder.
>
> Same files, yes.
>
> Shared folder? No. Why DOSemu was valuable *to me* is that I *didn't*
> need a shared folder: everything DOS could see was Linux folders,
> including its C drive and my home directory and so on.
>
> Same _time_? Ek! That sounds like a recipe for file corruption.
> No, not tried and don't want to. But surely that isn't what you meant?
>
> > Maybe
> > that's a minor point, but "making DOS apps part of the apps on the
> > computer" implies to me something like a DEXE.
>
> Um. I suppose that I can see what you mean, but you don't need that.
> You can just invoke a DOS binary straight from the command line:
> http://www.dosemu.org/docs/README/1.4/x724.html
>
> Again, I don't think you can do this with a VM and so these solutions
> don't appeal to me.
>
> TBH I am a bit surprised at this mailing list's apparent position on
> DOSemu.
>
> FreeDOS is the default OS supplied with DOSemu 1 and has been for many
> many years. DOSemu 1 still works and is still included in many
> distros, e.g. openSUSE. It's gone from Ubuntu 20.04 but it was there
> in 18.04 and still works. It's easy to add.
>
> For me, it had multiple advantages that VMs don't have, so I am
> puzzled that it sounds like nobody uses it any more and everyone
> considers that it's gone away.
>
>
> > As others have already said, you can also use a Linux directory as a
> > DOS drive. Darrin pointed to a way to do it in QEMU, and Robert
> > pointed to vvfat in Bochs.
>
> Interesting workarounds, but I'm still interested in getting the
> original, simpler tool working, so I don't need any virtual disk
> drives or anything. Is that a strange thing to want? It doesn't feel
> like it is to me, but I do feel like an odd man out on this list. :-(
>
> --
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[C. Masloch]

On at 2022-03-14 18:47 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

I don't agree that this feature "makes DOS apps part of the apps on
the computer"


DOS apps (not games but productivity applications) are by nature text
mode apps, with only a few modern exceptions which probably won't work
well on DOSemu anyway.

All xNix text-mode apps are designed and intended to exchange
information by means of plain text: either text files, or pipes.

DOS apps under DOSemu *windows* work on whatever is in the Linux
filesystem, and that generally includes the ability to import or
export plain-text files. And if you run them without graphics support,
you can pipe their output to other shell commands.

For me, that means that DOS apps can be used alongside with, and
interact with, Linux apps.  That is what I was getting at when I said
that they work alongside Linux apps, as just another type of binary
you can run -- in a way that is _not_ true of DOS inside a VM.


Some things to note:

1. Yes, you can use your Linux terminal (dosemu mode -t or mode -dumb) 
to do your DOS application's I/O. This is fairly unique, although qemu's 
-curses mode is similar to dosemu's -t.


2. dosemu runs an actual DOS system, traditionally FreeDOS. On the 
contrary, DOSBox is mostly used without a proper DOS, running its own 
operating system shims. (dosemu2 is blurring the distinction a bit with 
fdpp, which is a FreeDOS kernel port that runs in 32-bit or 64-bit host 
code and replaces the proper DOS kernel you can use otherwise. fdpp 
*only* runs in dosemu2 so far.)


3. The major feature of dosemu is certainly its filesystem redirector, 
based on the MachFS DOS redirector, which allows you to access host 
directories as DOS drives, and supports (to some extent) simultaneous 
accesses from Linux and DOS. (DOSBox has this too, but IIRC only for its 
built-in OS, not for when you boot an actual DOS instead.)


Other than that I don't really consider dosemu (or DOSBox) anything 
other than a "Virtual Machine" with some DOS-specific knacks.


Regards,
ecm


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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 18:21, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> From how you described it, I assumed you were talking about DEXE's.
> You said "runs DOS like a program under Linux" which is very similar
> to the "DOSEMU apps" (DEXE's) I mentioned.
> http://www.dosemu.org/docs/README/0.99/README-4.html

No. In fact I had never even heard of that before. Sounds like it was
probably very useful a quarter of a century ago. :-)

You know the maxim about "never assume", right? ;-)

> I don't agree that this feature "makes DOS apps part of the apps on
> the computer"

DOS apps (not games but productivity applications) are by nature text
mode apps, with only a few modern exceptions which probably won't work
well on DOSemu anyway.

All xNix text-mode apps are designed and intended to exchange
information by means of plain text: either text files, or pipes.

DOS apps under DOSemu *windows* work on whatever is in the Linux
filesystem, and that generally includes the ability to import or
export plain-text files. And if you run them without graphics support,
you can pipe their output to other shell commands.

For me, that means that DOS apps can be used alongside with, and
interact with, Linux apps.  That is what I was getting at when I said
that they work alongside Linux apps, as just another type of binary
you can run -- in a way that is _not_ true of DOS inside a VM.

>  but rather that FreeDOS (running in DOSEMU) and Linux
> can access the same files at the same time via a shared folder.

Same files, yes.

Shared folder? No. Why DOSemu was valuable *to me* is that I *didn't*
need a shared folder: everything DOS could see was Linux folders,
including its C drive and my home directory and so on.

Same _time_? Ek! That sounds like a recipe for file corruption.
No, not tried and don't want to. But surely that isn't what you meant?

> Maybe
> that's a minor point, but "making DOS apps part of the apps on the
> computer" implies to me something like a DEXE.

Um. I suppose that I can see what you mean, but you don't need that.
You can just invoke a DOS binary straight from the command line:
http://www.dosemu.org/docs/README/1.4/x724.html

Again, I don't think you can do this with a VM and so these solutions
don't appeal to me.

TBH I am a bit surprised at this mailing list's apparent position on DOSemu.

FreeDOS is the default OS supplied with DOSemu 1 and has been for many
many years. DOSemu 1 still works and is still included in many
distros, e.g. openSUSE. It's gone from Ubuntu 20.04 but it was there
in 18.04 and still works. It's easy to add.

For me, it had multiple advantages that VMs don't have, so I am
puzzled that it sounds like nobody uses it any more and everyone
considers that it's gone away.


> As others have already said, you can also use a Linux directory as a
> DOS drive. Darrin pointed to a way to do it in QEMU, and Robert
> pointed to vvfat in Bochs.

Interesting workarounds, but I'm still interested in getting the
original, simpler tool working, so I don't need any virtual disk
drives or anything. Is that a strange thing to want? It doesn't feel
like it is to me, but I do feel like an odd man out on this list. :-(

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 8:18 AM Liam Proven  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 14:03, Jim Hall  wrote:
> >  DOSEMU can definitely boot FreeDOS (or any DOS) in a window
> > like I've described, where it's a completely self-contained
> > and installed DOS. That's exactly how I used to run DOSEMU in
> > the DOSEMU "1.x" days.
>
> Yes, I know, but that's not what I was talking about.
>

>From how you described it, I assumed you were talking about DEXE's.
You said "runs DOS like a program under Linux" which is very similar
to the "DOSEMU apps" (DEXE's) I mentioned.
http://www.dosemu.org/docs/README/0.99/README-4.html


> What I was talking about was primarily the integration between DOS and
> the underlying OS. That I had a set of drive letters that were my home
> directory, and the whole Linux filesystem, and so on. I could do, say,
>
> DIR d:\apps\msword > z:\wordlist.txt
>
> And bingo, there's a file in my home directory called wordlist.txt
> containing the list of files in what DOS sees as my d:\apps\word
> folder.
[..]
> It makes DOS apps part of the apps on the computer. That's why it was
> useful to me. That's why I've been asking about getting FD13 running
> under it.
>

Yes, that is a great feature of DOSEMU. I used that all the time when
I ran DOSEMU, to write FreeDOS programs. I'd use GNU Emacs on Linux to
write/edit my program, save my work from Emacs (in my DOSEMU
directory) and then switch to the DOSEMU window to compile the program
on FreeDOS. When the program finally worked correctly on FreeDOS, I
could make a zip of my work (from DOSEMU) and switch to a Linux bash
shell (xterm) to upload my zip file to Ibiblio. All without rebooting.

I don't agree that this feature "makes DOS apps part of the apps on
the computer" but rather that FreeDOS (running in DOSEMU) and Linux
can access the same files at the same time via a shared folder. Maybe
that's a minor point, but "making DOS apps part of the apps on the
computer" implies to me something like a DEXE.


> A VM doesn't do that. It is a virtual PC with a virtual HD and inside
> that a FAT filesystem. My Linux apps can't see into it. My DOS apps
> can't see Linux files.
>

As others have already said, you can also use a Linux directory as a
DOS drive. Darrin pointed to a way to do it in QEMU, and Robert
pointed to vvfat in Bochs.


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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 16:34, Santiago Almenara  wrote:
>
> I am new to dosemu2, does it support munt, General Midi soundfonts or at 
> least can you connect those programs to the midi exit of dosemu2 ?

Gosh. I never use sound at all under DOS, but I believe it DOSemu2
does have some sound support:
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/linux.html#sound

«
Dosemu2 emulates a Sound Blaster Pro card
»

There's some possible OPL3 AdLib-type support:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=62=76767

Does that help?

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Santiago Almenara]

Hello TK Chia!

Thank you!

I am new to dosemu2, does it support munt, General Midi soundfonts or at
least can you connect those programs to the midi exit of dosemu2 ?

Greetings,

Santiago

El lun, 14 mar 2022 a la(s) 10:19, TK Chia (u1049321...@caramail.com)
escribió:

> Hello Travis,
>
> > Ok, odd question, (lots of emulation), but I've got ubuntu 20.04 running
> > under win10, using wsl.  I can't seem to get dosemu installed under that
> > version of ubuntu (though it works fine under a real ubuntu system I
> > have).  When I try to install dosemu under the ubuntu 20.04 running
> > under wsl, it tells me the package isn't there to be installed.
>
> I currently use dosemu2 (https://github.com/dosemu2/dosemu2), which can
> probably be described as a kind of bleeding-edge continuation of the
> dosemu project.
>
> I believe Ubuntu no longer distributes the original (?) dosemu 1.x.
>
> There is an "official" Ubuntu Personal Package Archive (PPA) for dosemu2
> at https://launchpad.net/~dosemu2/+archive/ubuntu/ppa.  Be forewarned
> though that this is updated very frequently and might thus be unstable.
>
> Me, I also have a PPA at
> https://launchpad.net/~tkchia/+archive/ubuntu/de-rebus which hosts a
> copy of dosemu2.  This is less frequently updated, and hopefully more
> stable. :)
>
> Thank you!
>
> --
> https://gitlab.com/tkchia :: https://github.com/tkchia
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[TK Chia]

Hello Travis,


Ok, odd question, (lots of emulation), but I've got ubuntu 20.04 running
under win10, using wsl.  I can't seem to get dosemu installed under that
version of ubuntu (though it works fine under a real ubuntu system I
have).  When I try to install dosemu under the ubuntu 20.04 running
under wsl, it tells me the package isn't there to be installed.


I currently use dosemu2 (https://github.com/dosemu2/dosemu2), which can
probably be described as a kind of bleeding-edge continuation of the
dosemu project.

I believe Ubuntu no longer distributes the original (?) dosemu 1.x.

There is an "official" Ubuntu Personal Package Archive (PPA) for dosemu2
at https://launchpad.net/~dosemu2/+archive/ubuntu/ppa.  Be forewarned
though that this is updated very frequently and might thus be unstable.

Me, I also have a PPA at
https://launchpad.net/~tkchia/+archive/ubuntu/de-rebus which hosts a
copy of dosemu2.  This is less frequently updated, and hopefully more
stable. :)

Thank you!

--
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

Thanks to Darrin and Robert for these...


On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 14:28, Darrin M. Gorski  wrote:
>
> You can also do that with qemu:  -drive format=raw,file=fat:rw:$HOME/shared

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 15:02, Robert Riebisch  wrote:
>
> Bochs has vvfat mode for that:
> )

Both of these sound a bit hacky but are worth knowing about. The
DOSemu one is just like a network redirector, and was fast and simple
and had no particular gotchas.

For me, though, the other big appeal of DOSemu is full native
execution speed. I don't want or need the weight of an emulator or
soundcard support or anything. It was just a way to work with my old
DOS apps on a modern computer as part of my modern OS.

These workarounds all sound more complex and more fiddly to me... or
is it just me?

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Liam,

> A VM doesn't do that. It is a virtual PC with a virtual HD and inside
> that a FAT filesystem. My Linux apps can't see into it. My DOS apps
> can't see Linux files.

Bochs has vvfat mode for that:
vvfat: local directory appears as VFAT disk (with volatile redolog /
optional commit)
(see
)

Cheers,
Robert
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Sean Warner]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 12:08 PM Robert Riebisch 
wrote:

> Hi Travis,
>
> > (probably a silly question, but it would help me to be able to run dos
> > apps this way, unless someone has another free alternative that is
> > accessible).
>
> Maybe http://takeda-toshiya.my.coocan.jp/msdos/ is already enough on
> Windows 10 x64?
>
> DOSBox is no option?
>

If you just want to run a 16-bit DOS application in Windows then it might
just run if you are using Windows 10 32-bit. Windows will ask you to enable
a program called NTVDM to enable that.

I recently discovered NTVDMx64 which is a port of Microsofts NTVDM. It got
my 16-bit DOS application to run just fine IN Windows 10 64-bit... no need
for DOS or any emulators.
https://github.com/leecher1337/ntvdmx64
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/ntvdmx64.html

If your application is written for Windows 1.x, 2.x, or 3.x, or maybe
Windows 95 or Windows 98 or Windows Me. There is also a program
called: Otvdm/winevdm
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/otvdm.html

In my case NTVDMx64 was an ideal option because I could keep all the same
networking, printing and USB support my application needed that was either
going to be not possible or else a pain to set up with a DOS solution. The
developer gives amazing support.

Cheers,

Flex
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Darrin M. Gorski]

You can also do that with qemu:  -drive format=raw,file=fat:rw:$HOME/shared

The QEMU docs state that the FAT is created at startup - so any new files
added on the linux side won't appear to DOS after booting  However, new
files created from DOS will update the in-memory FAT and thus appear to DOS
and Linux.

I would not rely on this for muti-user use though, any more than I would
rely on the homedir -based "drives" that DOSEMU uses.  For this use MSNET
or something similar which allows proper file locking. (as discussed
previously)

- Darrin


On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:18 AM Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 14:03, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> > DOSEMU can definitely boot FreeDOS (or any DOS) in a window like I've
> described, where it's a completely self-contained and installed DOS. That's
> exactly how I used to run DOSEMU in the DOSEMU "1.x" days.
>
> Yes, I know, but that's not what I was talking about.
>
> What I was talking about was primarily the integration between DOS and
> the underlying OS. That I had a set of drive letters that were my home
> directory, and the whole Linux filesystem, and so on. I could do, say,
>
> DIR d:\apps\msword > z:\wordlist.txt
>
> And bingo, there's a file in my home directory called wordlist.txt
> containing the list of files in what DOS sees as my d:\apps\word
> folder.
>
> I could open WordPerfect, write some stuff, save it as a a file in
> Z:\Docume~1\mywpdoc.wp and then alt-tab to my Linux desktop and open
> ~/Documents/mywpdoc.wp in LibreOffice, check it looked OK, and then
> flip to Thunderbird email it to my boss.
>
> It makes DOS apps part of the apps on the computer. That's why it was
> useful to me. That's why I've been asking about getting FD13 running
> under it.
>
> A VM doesn't do that. It is a virtual PC with a virtual HD and inside
> that a FAT filesystem. My Linux apps can't see into it. My DOS apps
> can't see Linux files.
>
> Whether it's in a window or not doesn't matter. That's just cosmetics.
>
> I'm not starting an argument, I am just trying to understand.
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 14:03, Jim Hall  wrote:

> DOSEMU can definitely boot FreeDOS (or any DOS) in a window like I've 
> described, where it's a completely self-contained and installed DOS. That's 
> exactly how I used to run DOSEMU in the DOSEMU "1.x" days.

Yes, I know, but that's not what I was talking about.

What I was talking about was primarily the integration between DOS and
the underlying OS. That I had a set of drive letters that were my home
directory, and the whole Linux filesystem, and so on. I could do, say,

DIR d:\apps\msword > z:\wordlist.txt

And bingo, there's a file in my home directory called wordlist.txt
containing the list of files in what DOS sees as my d:\apps\word
folder.

I could open WordPerfect, write some stuff, save it as a a file in
Z:\Docume~1\mywpdoc.wp and then alt-tab to my Linux desktop and open
~/Documents/mywpdoc.wp in LibreOffice, check it looked OK, and then
flip to Thunderbird email it to my boss.

It makes DOS apps part of the apps on the computer. That's why it was
useful to me. That's why I've been asking about getting FD13 running
under it.

A VM doesn't do that. It is a virtual PC with a virtual HD and inside
that a FAT filesystem. My Linux apps can't see into it. My DOS apps
can't see Linux files.

Whether it's in a window or not doesn't matter. That's just cosmetics.

I'm not starting an argument, I am just trying to understand.

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 6:42 AM Liam Proven  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 06:17, Jim Hall  wrote:
> >
> > Another free alternative is QEMU, which should be available (and
> probably already installed by default) in every major Linux distro.
>
> You said this in answer to me the other day. I meant to respond, but was
> busy.
>
> So, I will now.
>
> I don't see them as being the same thing at all.
>
> QEMU is a VM. Sure you can run DOS but you can run any OS under a VM.
>
> The point of DOSemu is that it runs DOS like a program under Linux.
> It's not a VM and it doesn't work like a VM.
>
> DOSemu doesn't need a virtual hard disk. It lets DOS apps access Linux
> directories and read and write Linux files. It lets DOS access Linux
> hardware: I know of people burning EPROMs using DOSemu. It starts with
> useful Linux directories mapped as DOS drives. It can run in text mode
> and output be piped to the Linux shell.
>
> It's a totally different beast and I don't see how a hypervisor -- any
> hypervisor -- can replace it? How can a DOS VM do any of the things I
> just suggested?
>

DOSEMU *can definitely* boot FreeDOS (or any DOS) in a window like I've
described, where it's a completely self-contained and installed DOS. That's
exactly how I used to run DOSEMU in the DOSEMU "1.x" days.

Used that way, it's the same as how I describe QEMU or VirtualBox or any
other virtual machine system. (Although *installing* FreeDOS in VirtualBox
was different than installing FreeDOS on hardware, because DOSEMU presented
C: as already "partitioned" and "formatted" so you didn't use FDISK or
FORMAT under DOSEMU.)

There was some kind of "DOSEMU app" feature which sounds like what you're
describing. You could run a pre-packaged DOS program like it was a Linux
app. If I recall correctly, it required a lot of setup and a custom
dosemu.conf file.

But I never dug into that with DOSEMU. I only wanted to boot FreeDOS from
inside my Linux system, and in those days we didn't have QEMU or VirtualBox
or VMware. I used DOSEMU in plain "DOS in a box" mode. (The DOSEMU window
ran with the title "DOS in a box.")

Then, for a period of many years, no one maintained DOSEMU. So I switched
to other "DOS in a box" systems. These days, I use QEMU and VirtualBox
(certain use cases for each).

I haven't used DOSEMU2 so I don't know if they've changed how DOSEMU works.
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Travis,

> (probably a silly question, but it would help me to be able to run dos 
> apps this way, unless someone has another free alternative that is 
> accessible).

Maybe http://takeda-toshiya.my.coocan.jp/msdos/ is already enough on
Windows 10 x64?

DOSBox is no option?

Cheers,
Robert
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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 06:17, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> Another free alternative is QEMU, which should be available (and probably 
> already installed by default) in every major Linux distro.

You said this in answer to me the other day. I meant to respond, but was busy.

So, I will now.

I don't see them as being the same thing at all.

QEMU is a VM. Sure you can run DOS but you can run any OS under a VM.

The point of DOSemu is that it runs DOS like a program under Linux.
It's not a VM and it doesn't work like a VM.

DOSemu doesn't need a virtual hard disk. It lets DOS apps access Linux
directories and read and write Linux files. It lets DOS access Linux
hardware: I know of people burning EPROMs using DOSemu. It starts with
useful Linux directories mapped as DOS drives. It can run in text mode
and output be piped to the Linux shell.

It's a totally different beast and I don't see how a hypervisor -- any
hypervisor -- can replace it? How can a DOS VM do any of the things I
just suggested?

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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Liam Proven]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 05:15, Travis Siegel  wrote:
>
> Ok, odd question, (lots of emulation), but I've got ubuntu 20.04 running
> under win10, using wsl.

WSL1 or WSL2?

Might work on WSL2. Might not on WSL1 because there is no actual Linux
kernel present.


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Re: [Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Jim Hall]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 11:15 PM Travis Siegel  wrote:

> [..]
> What do I need to do to get dosemu runningunder ubuntu which is running
> under windows 10.
>
> (probably a silly question, but it would help me to be able to run dos
> apps this way, unless someone has another free alternative that is
> accessible).
>


Another free alternative is QEMU, which should be available (and probably
already installed by default) in every major Linux distro.

I find QEMU is noticeably slower for heavy disk I/O (installing FreeDOS in
QEMU takes probably ten minutes longer than installing in VirtualBox, for
example) but otherwise runs great. I do much of my app dev in FreeDOS
running on QEMU.

Note that QEMU has a ton of command line args you need to give it: set the
CPU, the clock, the memory, the virtual hard drive, the virtual CD-ROM, the
sound, the video, the display, etc. And that can be a pain. But I write a
script that starts it for me, which is really easy.

QEMU also uses a virtual hard drive (DOSEMU uses a Linux directory for your
C drive) but that's easy to manage. And you can mount the virtual drive
using Linux tools like guestfstools.

>
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[Freedos-user] how to get dosemu working under ubuntu installed in wsl

[Travis Siegel]

Ok, odd question, (lots of emulation), but I've got ubuntu 20.04 running 
under win10, using wsl.  I can't seem to get dosemu installed under that 
version of ubuntu (though it works fine under a real ubuntu system I 
have).  When I try to install dosemu under the ubuntu 20.04 running 
under wsl, it tells me the package isn't there to be installed.


When I download the binary package, it doesn't seem to have any linux 
binary to launch the dosemu program, just the dos executables.


What do I need to do to get dosemu runningunder ubuntu which is running 
under windows 10.


(probably a silly question, but it would help me to be able to run dos 
apps this way, unless someone has another free alternative that is 
accessible).





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