Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:29 AM, Eric Auer e.a...@jpberlin.de wrote: I have an assortment of sites bookmarked that make effective use of Flash, but Flash is an option, and they can be used without it. (The sites are art, design, and fashion sites... Please give some example what they do with flash. Do they use it for example for their image galleries? For navigation? Other...? Image galleries, mostly. You can do nice effects in Flash. Navigation is also implemented in Flash, but Flash is not required to navigate. Note that in the old days, people just used Javascript for the odd click here, unfold that menu there code snippet, which did not need much of a library. Now people indeed use it for a lot heavier tasks, probably thanks to faster network and computers, often to the point of having a full GUI toolkit library in JS. JavaScript was first implemented for the sort of functionality you mention. A Microsoft developer elsewhere commented on the difficulty in maintaining large code bases in dynamically typed languages, with JavaScript as example: The by-design purpose of JavaScript was to make the monkey dance when you moused over it. Scripts were often a single line. We considered ten line scripts to be pretty normal, hundred line scripts to be huge, and thousand line scripts were unheard of. The language was absolutely not designed for programming in the large, and our implementation decisions, performance targets, and so on, were based on that assumption. http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/221615/why-do-dynamic-languages-make-it-more-difficult-to-maintain-large-codebases JavaScript has grown far beyond those assumptions. As an example, I use Firefox as my browwser. Firefox uses the Mozilla Gecko rendering engine. Gecko renders HTML and CSS, and runs JavaScript. It also renders XUL, an XML language for creating user interfaces. The browser itself is simply another thing Gecko renders, and the look-and-feel of the browser is created in XUL, CSS, and widgets, with JavaScript providing the interactivity and actually performing the actions when you click on a menu item. Examples of C cross-compiled to JS go up to complete virtual PC, for example for running DOS in a browser window. I've seen examples of things like that. The Internet Archive has a beta effort now devoted to DOS games that uses virtualized DOSBOX instances to display them in a browser window, with lots of JS implementing the interface. For playing video in DOS, mpxplay and similar players using for example ported ffmpeg libraries can be used, quite versatile. You *can*. I generally have no pressing reason to actually *do* it, beyond seeing whether it can be done. Regards, Eric __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Eric Auer e.a...@jpberlin.de wrote: Hi Dennis, 2). http://youtube-eng.blogspot.nl/2015/01/youtube-now-defaults-to-html5_27.html Very nice :-) I infer that you need a relatively current browser. Yes, and those video codec libraries are not small at all. So even if you would add just enough HTML5 to a DOS browser to display youtube, it would add a lot of complexity... You need more than HTML5. You also need CSS3 and JavaScript. The biggest use case for Flash has been video, which historically has been presented on the web as SWF objects. You can also make a fancy GUI for your website in Flash. I remember websites with keen designers which would show one big box of Flash and if you had no Flash, you basically saw nothing of the page. Luckily this fashion has gone away and Flash indeed is mostly for video (and animated ads?) today. I have an assortment of sites bookmarked that make effective use of Flash, but Flash is an option, and they can be used without it. (The sites are art, design, and fashion sites, coded by people who knew what they were doing.) I have seen the odd site coded *entirely* in Flash. Those are abominations designed by incompetents and paid for by idiots. One of the reasons for this is that you can do a lot with Javascript today. There are many nice libraries written in Javascript that help you to make a website with a nice GUI. Arguably, too many. I've lost track of how many there are. The problem is that JavaScript is a batteries *not* included language, so one or more libraries are pretty much a necessity to keep from reinventing the wheel by writing low-level code. There are even cross-compilers which compile for example C code into Javascript. Probably into a small virtual machine written in Javascript plus bytecode for that ;-) Current browser design has JavaScript compiled to native machine code for execution instead of being interpreted. Thge problem is that sometimes it's faster to just interpret rather than compiling, and the JS engine must make good choices about which to do. Mozilla got bit by that in a prior version of the JavaScript engine in Gecko (JaegerMonkey, I think), which was slower than desired because it was compiling when it would have been faster to just interpret. I don't think the C-JavaScript compilers create a virtual machine. That's what the JS engine in the browser is for. So an interesting question is: Which DOS browsers have any Javascript support? With CSS? Enough to display animated menus or enough to process those Javascript libraries? Of the top of my head, none, though I haven't looked in a while. Dillo, available for DOS, had JavaScript on the roadmap, but needed to do a lot of DOM work before that could happen. And you would still face the issue of *playing* the video. What would you use? Also, I remember somebody in BTTR mentioning a tool which analyzes youtube HTML to find the direct URL of the video to be played. That sounds like a reasonable way to watch youtube video in DOS on occasion. Details? Instructions? And what do you play it with? I believe there's a Greasemonkey UserScript to get the underlying URL.. On the old notebook FreeDOS is on, I don't *try* to watch YouTube, in DOS, Linux, or Windows. Audio is okay, but video is a sequence of still photos, not smooth video. I remember that when I use too many script, ad and gimmick blockers on Linux, using a download helper plugin to find the video URL and watching that in VLC is sometimes faster than having to unblock bells whistles in my browser ;-) In Linux, I do the dame thing as I do in Windows. I use Firefox as my browser. NoScript is installed to block scripting unless the site is in a user maintained whitelist. Ad blocking gets handled in CSS. I install Stylish, which lets me run arbitrary CSS based on what I'm connecting to. One of the bits of arbitrary CSS is a package called Ad Blocking Filterset P. Filterset P defines a long list of ad servers, and simply doesn't render content fetched from them. It doesn't do as thorough a job as something like AdBlock Plus, but that's fine. I don't want to kill all ads. I just want to clean up ad heavy sites so they're readable. I'm a big fan of VLC. I run it under Windows and Linus as the default media player, and have a beta version on Android as well. Regards, Eric __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi Dennis, I have an assortment of sites bookmarked that make effective use of Flash, but Flash is an option, and they can be used without it. (The sites are art, design, and fashion sites... Please give some example what they do with flash. Do they use it for example for their image galleries? For navigation? Other...? Note that in the old days, people just used Javascript for the odd click here, unfold that menu there code snippet, which did not need much of a library. Now people indeed use it for a lot heavier tasks, probably thanks to faster network and computers, often to the point of having a full GUI toolkit library in JS. Examples of C cross-compiled to JS go up to complete virtual PC, for example for running DOS in a browser window. For playing video in DOS, mpxplay and similar players using for example ported ffmpeg libraries can be used, quite versatile. Regards, Eric -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi Dennis, 2). http://youtube-eng.blogspot.nl/2015/01/youtube-now-defaults-to-html5_27.html Very nice :-) I infer that you need a relatively current browser. Yes, and those video codec libraries are not small at all. So even if you would add just enough HTML5 to a DOS browser to display youtube, it would add a lot of complexity... The biggest use case for Flash has been video, which historically has been presented on the web as SWF objects. You can also make a fancy GUI for your website in Flash. I remember websites with keen designers which would show one big box of Flash and if you had no Flash, you basically saw nothing of the page. Luckily this fashion has gone away and Flash indeed is mostly for video (and animated ads?) today. One of the reasons for this is that you can do a lot with Javascript today. There are many nice libraries written in Javascript that help you to make a website with a nice GUI. There are even cross-compilers which compile for example C code into Javascript. Probably into a small virtual machine written in Javascript plus bytecode for that ;-) So an interesting question is: Which DOS browsers have any Javascript support? With CSS? Enough to display animated menus or enough to process those Javascript libraries? Also, I remember somebody in BTTR mentioning a tool which analyzes youtube HTML to find the direct URL of the video to be played. That sounds like a reasonable way to watch youtube video in DOS on occasion. Details? Instructions? I remember that when I use too many script, ad and gimmick blockers on Linux, using a download helper plugin to find the video URL and watching that in VLC is sometimes faster than having to unblock bells whistles in my browser ;-) Regards, Eric -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi again, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:32 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote: Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Availability_on_desktop_operating_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Alternatives I *did* say on the *desktop*. I'm well aware Flash is going away in mobile. The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why people are pushing HTML5.) Flash is probably legitimately half dead. It's not well-supported anymore. It was very popular (and still is), but there were many people who actively hated it. It's hard to go against the grain. It's hard to support or use something when everyone is fighting against it. I'll be just as happy when Flash is gone. For instance, I use Firefox, and Firefox has a plugin_helper application called from within it when a plugin is run. It provides a sandbox in which the plugin can execute so a crashing plugin doesn't take the browser with it. Guess which plugin was a worst offender that pushed Mozilla into creating plugin_helper? But I'm not holding my breath while Flash goes away. A technology that pervasive and deeply embedded doesn't simply go away overnight. IT needs to be replaced, and the content that used it recrafted in something else. 1). http://www.osnews.com/story/28253/YouTube_now_defaults_to_HTML5_video 2). http://youtube-eng.blogspot.nl/2015/01/youtube-now-defaults-to-html5_27.html Keep in mind that YouTube is currently owned by Google. Also keep in mind that it currently only claims to be fully supported on Chrome, IE 11, Safari 8 and in beta versions of Firefox. Infer whatever you want from that. -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Dave Kerber dker...@warrenrogersassociates.com wrote: No, dialup does not require copper. I know from personal experience that it works fine on a FiOS or DSL line. If you have a dialtone when you pick up your landline phone, a dialup modem will work. True, and I sit partially corrected. I suppose I could fish out my old US Robotics modem, connect it up, plug the phone line into the port on the cable modem where my phone currently plugs in and get a dialtone. But what, exactly, would I call? Nothing I need to communicate with these days has a modem on its end to answer. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:32 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: But I'm not holding my breath while Flash goes away. A technology that pervasive and deeply embedded doesn't simply go away overnight. It needs to be replaced, and the content that used it recrafted in something else. 1). http://www.osnews.com/story/28253/YouTube_now_defaults_to_HTML5_video 2). http://youtube-eng.blogspot.nl/2015/01/youtube-now-defaults-to-html5_27.html Keep in mind that YouTube is currently owned by Google. Also keep in mind that it currently only claims to be fully supported on Chrome, IE 11, Safari 8 and in beta versions of Firefox. Infer whatever you want from that. I infer that you need a relatively current browser. (And note that current release versions of Firefox support YouTube. A beta is not required.) The biggest use case for Flash has been video, which historically has been presented on the web as SWF objects. Google has been migrating YouTube away from Flash and to HTML5. The biggest reason for most folks to go to HTML5 has been the video keyword, which allows video to be embedded *without* requiring Flash. You still need a codec to decode and render video, but the codec can be delivered as part of the browser, and not require a plugin. (And there were amusing moments there, too. YouTube had a beta site where you could test the HTML5 versions. IE and Chrome worked. Firefox did not. The problem was that the HTML5 videos were encoded using H.264, a proprietary technology requiring a license fee. MS and Google paid the fee and included the plugin binary. Firefox did not because it was open source and required all components supplied with Firefox to have source available, and could not do so with the H.264 codec. Google subsequently decided to open source Chrome as well, and was looking at alternate codecs that could be offered as open source but had performance equivalent to H.264.) Current browser development makes the underlying assumption that plugins are bad, and that the user should need only a browser to view web content. Plugins get called as external processes, and a failing plugin can take the browser with it. That fact is responsible for Mozilla's plugin_helper executable, which runs plugins in a sandbox so a failing plugin doesn't also take down the browser, and for in part Chrome running each browser tab in a separate process. Meanwhile, if you are attempting to browse from DOS, you are increasingly far behind. I don't even *try* to browse from FreeDOS. Since I have Windows and Linux available, and currently supported browsers run in both, I have no need to. I do not see current web standards being supported in DOS browser. Aside from the fact that I'm not sure it's *possible*, who would invest the development effort to do it, and why? FreeDOS here is a toy. I run it to keep my hand in, and to play with old technology. I *don't* try to do critical work in it. I have Windows and Linux for that, and a lot of what I do simply can't be done in DOS. There are folks who *are* using DOS as a production OS, and have done so since DOS *was* the main OS on a PC. If your needs can be met by what DOS and DOS applications can do, more power to you. Mine can't. Too many discussions on topics like this resolve to I don't want to change. I want to keep doing what I've always done. Development should stop in its tracks so I can continue to do that. I see this in Windows and Linux forums as well. There's a chap in a Linux forum elsewhere still trying to use Thunderbird 2.0 and finding it increasingly difficult. All I can say is TBird 2.0? God. *Why?* (The answer is he has it the way he likes it and doesn't want to change. He's near the point where he won't have a choice.) Unfortunately, the world does not sit still. Change is a constant, and adapting to change is a requirement. Tough. Deal with it. The world will not sit still for you. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:01 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Ralf Quint freedos...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/16/2014 2:50 PM, Louis Santillan wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) [0][1][2] and DMP's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots FreeDOS. Even if all Intel based PCs are equipped with 64bit capable CPUs, they will just as happy run 32bit or even 16bit code just fine. Assuming OS support is there. The instruction set is the same. Various system calls may not be. If you want to run DOS apps on a 64 bit Windows machine, you need a VM or emulator. They won't run native. I'm no engineer, but ... this isn't quite true. First of all, why can Linux's DOSEMU work better than NTVDM, even on x64? And it's not even using any hardware emulation features at all. On DOSEMU x64 (only), 16-bit has to be software emulated, but 32-bit stuff like DJGPP runs at native speed, regardless of the lack of V86 mode. Obviously IA-32 host's support is even better. Every 386 clone had V86 mode, thus allowing native speed for 16-bit apps. In fact, you could use 32-bit instructions in 16-bit mode. However, you can't mix 64-bit with anything, and not all AMD64 clones were equal. The instruction set is the same. No, it's not, not at all. Ignoring the weird and minor differences between EM64T and AMD64, there's also the problem of (lack of) VT-X, e.g. paged real mode and unrestricted guest mode execution, neither of which is available on all 64-bit processors, not even by the same cpu maker. I don't know why this is, maybe patents?? Either way, it probably [citation needed] affected MS and their decision to phase out legacy support. Unfortunately, MS made their business by encouraging proprietary binaries, so there's a ton of legacy that will never get ported to Win64 (PE+). Besides, to make it worse, XP Mode and Hyper-V weren't / aren't available to Home users at all. So even when it halfway works, we didn't get anything. So we're forced to use other third-party solutions like VirtualBox or QEMU or DOSBox, which can work well or badly depending on what you're trying to do. (NTVDM wasn't ever perfect either, but XP wasn't too horrible.) BTW, read this (How retiring segmentation in AMD64 long mode broke VMware): http://www.pagetable.com/?p=25 And there are as mentioned above now with the Intel Quark X1000 processor again 32bit, single core/thread CPUs coming out for which a 16bit FreeDOS can be a very viable option for an OS to run on... DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second coming of Linux... As soon as people stop treating Linux as the second coming of Windows The fundamental issue for DOS is exactly what you *do* with it, and *why* you might use DOS in preference to something else like Linux. The fact that something *can* run DOS doesn't necessarily mean it *should*. sarcasm Forget UNIX. Just run Windows, everyone else does! /sarcasm -- New Year. New Location. New Benefits. New Data Center in Ashburn, VA. GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn. Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth. Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant. http://p.sf.net/sfu/gigenet ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Yes, you need an RJ-11 jack (not RJ-45) on the wall, which is terminated with copper, but I have FiOS at my house, which is fiber to the wall of my garage, and a media converter to the copper that runs throughout my house. That is still how most houses are wired even if they have DSL or Fiber to the house: copper inside, tranlsated to fiber or cable before it leaves the premises. Dialup modems work fine in all those cases. -Original Message- From: dmccunney [mailto:dennis.mccun...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 4:52 PM To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60) On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: Copper is long gone and my dial up still works.Fiber is just a carrier. Dial up uses analog signals transmitted over copper wire. Fiber is digital end-to-end. When you dial up, you presumably use a modem and connect via an RJ45 jack to a connector on the wall. What does the connecter have inside? I'm willing to bet a lot it's copper wire. The wire will teminate in a mux somewhere in the basement of your building or in the street, and long haul traffic will be over fiber, but the conversion from analog to digital happens elsewhere. (And what the telco historically used was *not* TCP-IP. They sent digital packets, but used a completely different protocol. I used to *be* a telecom admin. I actually know something about this.) In my area, copper at the point where the user will connect is no longer available. It's fiber end-to-end. Existing copper installations still work, but if they fail they will not be repaired. Verizon is treating hurricane Sandy damage as a good excuse to drop copper, and people who had copper that failed because of hurricane damage have already been told it won't be fixed, and their options are cell phone and/or fiber. Peon is anyone who takes orders from a boss. Just about everybody. And the boss is the one who should be in control? Dial up is so slow it would take years to clean out Sony instead of minutes or hours. Dial up is so slow Sony would not be able to do business in their current fashion if they were restricted to it. Neither would anybody else. You would not like living in the world that would result. Sony was most likely an inside job. Some peon probably did it - revenge or money who knows. Speculation is all over the web, with current fingers mostly pointing at politically motivated hackers in NK, who were unhappy about a new Sony Pictures film that portrayed their leader in an unflattering light. Sony uses broadband and was the exit point for their billion dollar files. They didn't leave Sony in a brief case. Hacks like the one that breached Sony occurred back when stuff *was* still dial up. Slower speed may make it take longer to get the data, but will not prevent the breach. DS. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 --- --- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.c lktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming! The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
-Original Message- From: dmccunney [mailto:dennis.mccun...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:35 PM To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60) ... Dial up still works the same without copper - real slow No it doesn't. Dial up *requires* copper. It does not exist on fiber links. *Broadband* can exist on copper, with ISDN and DSL service the prominent examples, but broadband is increasingly fiber these days too. No, dialup does not require copper. I know from personal experience that it works fine on a FiOS or DSL line. If you have a dialtone when you pick up your landline phone, a dialup modem will work. DS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 --- --- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.c lktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming! The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Broadband makes such stealing so easy. It would take several truck loads of floppies to steal that much data. Broadband goes everywhere in a company. Its quiet and super fast. It can empty files out faster than a speeding bullet. Access to it should be manually controled at a switch board by specially trained inspectors. Each transmission logged by an inspector. cheers DS On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:00:48 -0800 Michael Brutman mbbrut...@brutman.com writes: The conversation is getting silly.â Sony got hacked. Like many large corporations, they are very concerned about threats from outside. But once an intruder is inside, every door in the building was basically found to be unlocked. Good security is layered security - getting in the front door does not give you access to everything. And the issue of broadband vs. dial-up really for ease of hacking is not relevant. Broadband does make it slightly easier, not because of the speed, but because the connection is always on and in the same place all of the time. It's much easier to test the security of an entity when they keep showing up at the same place (IP address) all of the time. And even in ye olde days, if hacking over the network was not feasible then the hacking would have been done from inside. Data would be carried out using floppies, tapes, Zip drives, CD-R, etc. Physical security at many corporations is often pretty weak too. Getting back on topic ... Browsing under DOS is a lost cause. The world has moved on. We do not have enough library or developer support to keep modern applications running under DOS. It's just not worth the effort. Modern hardware is cheap enough were this should not even be a concern. DOS and its variants are a niche. They are not good for running Java, Javascript, etc. Use and enjoy DOS for what it was good at, and occasionally be unreasonable and do something cool that people are not expecting. But don't expect to keep parity with Linux, Windows, MacOS and ChromeOS - that is just not feasible. ** From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052 *** Apple#39;s Crazy New Gizmo Forget the iPhone 6. Next hit Apple product leaked. #40;see picture#41; http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/549850bfe4a9550bf16dbst04duc -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming! The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Broadband will always be used but should be used by only people who can be trusted. Using it everywhere is dangerous. Its so fast and quiet. The theft is complete before an alarm can be raised. Its like giving a burglar the ability to quietly clean your house out in 5 second. DS On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:51:30 -0500 dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com writes: On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: Copper is long gone and my dial up still works.Fiber is just a carrier. Dial up uses analog signals transmitted over copper wire. Fiber is digital end-to-end. When you dial up, you presumably use a modem and connect via an RJ45 jack to a connector on the wall. What does the connecter have inside? I'm willing to bet a lot it's copper wire. The wire will teminate in a mux somewhere in the basement of your building or in the street, and long haul traffic will be over fiber, but the conversion from analog to digital happens elsewhere. (And what the telco historically used was *not* TCP-IP. They sent digital packets, but used a completely different protocol. I used to *be* a telecom admin. I actually know something about this.) In my area, copper at the point where the user will connect is no longer available. It's fiber end-to-end. Existing copper installations still work, but if they fail they will not be repaired. Verizon is treating hurricane Sandy damage as a good excuse to drop copper, and people who had copper that failed because of hurricane damage have already been told it won't be fixed, and their options are cell phone and/or fiber. Peon is anyone who takes orders from a boss. Just about everybody. And the boss is the one who should be in control? Dial up is so slow it would take years to clean out Sony instead of minutes or hours. Dial up is so slow Sony would not be able to do business in their current fashion if they were restricted to it. Neither would anybody else. You would not like living in the world that would result. Sony was most likely an inside job. Some peon probably did it - revenge or money who knows. Speculation is all over the web, with current fingers mostly pointing at politically motivated hackers in NK, who were unhappy about a new Sony Pictures film that portrayed their leader in an unflattering light. Sony uses broadband and was the exit point for their billion dollar files. They didn't leave Sony in a brief case. Hacks like the one that breached Sony occurred back when stuff *was* still dial up. Slower speed may make it take longer to get the data, but will not prevent the breach. DS. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 - - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clk trk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user Protect what matters Floods can happen anywhere. Learn your risk and find an agent today. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3165/54984a12994de4a104923mp11duc ** From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052 *** -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming! The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
If I were running Sony the peons would have dial up and broadband would be limited to a few special people would tightly control its use. Dial up still works the same without copper - real slow DS On Fri, 19 Dec 2014 14:34:01 -0500 dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: Improved tech makes things better; just ask Sony. Broadband use made the hacks possible. Broadband made hacks delivery *faster*. They were already *possible*. Viruses were a pestilence back when everything was still DOS and dial up. My dial up is so slow it takes a half hour to download a virus, plenty of time to hit stop. Assuming you know what you're downloading *is* a virus. But if you know that, why are you downloading? But that's a thought: we should all insure security by abjuring broadband and going back to dial up. Yeah, right. Not *possible* where I am. Verizon is making copper go away as fast as it can, and for good reason. I wouldn't do it if it *were* possible. Too much of what I do requires broadband. DS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 - - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clk trk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user Protect what matters Floods can happen anywhere. Learn your risk and find an agent today. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3165/5496f4d0e7b3474d02967mp03duc ** From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052 *** -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: If I were running Sony the peons would have dial up and broadband would be limited to a few special people would tightly control its use. What has Sony to do with anything? They aren't a telco or an ISP, and do not provide broadband services. And just who do you suppose the peons might be? And who might do the control? Dial up still works the same without copper - real slow No it doesn't. Dial up *requires* copper. It does not exist on fiber links. *Broadband* can exist on copper, with ISDN and DSL service the prominent examples, but broadband is increasingly fiber these days too. DS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Copper is long gone and my dial up still works.Fiber is just a carrier. Peon is anyone who takes orders from a boss. Just about everybody. Dial up is so slow it would take years to clean out Sony instead of minutes or hours. Sony was most likely an inside job. Some peon probably did it - revenge or money who knows. Sony uses broadband and was the exit point for their billion dollar files. They didn't leave Sony in a brief case. DS. On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:35:05 -0500 dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com writes: On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: If I were running Sony the peons would have dial up and broadband would be limited to a few special people would tightly control its use. What has Sony to do with anything? They aren't a telco or an ISP, and do not provide broadband services. And just who do you suppose the peons might be? And who might do the control? Dial up still works the same without copper - real slow No it doesn't. Dial up *requires* copper. It does not exist on fiber links. *Broadband* can exist on copper, with ISDN and DSL service the prominent examples, but broadband is increasingly fiber these days too. DS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 - - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clk trk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user Protect what matters Floods can happen anywhere. Learn your risk and find an agent today. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3165/549705a8103f85a82ee1mp15duc ** From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052 *** -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
The conversation is getting silly. Sony got hacked. Like many large corporations, they are very concerned about threats from outside. But once an intruder is inside, every door in the building was basically found to be unlocked. Good security is layered security - getting in the front door does not give you access to everything. And the issue of broadband vs. dial-up really for ease of hacking is not relevant. Broadband does make it slightly easier, not because of the speed, but because the connection is always on and in the same place all of the time. It's much easier to test the security of an entity when they keep showing up at the same place (IP address) all of the time. And even in ye olde days, if hacking over the network was not feasible then the hacking would have been done from inside. Data would be carried out using floppies, tapes, Zip drives, CD-R, etc. Physical security at many corporations is often pretty weak too. Getting back on topic ... Browsing under DOS is a lost cause. The world has moved on. We do not have enough library or developer support to keep modern applications running under DOS. It's just not worth the effort. Modern hardware is cheap enough were this should not even be a concern. DOS and its variants are a niche. They are not good for running Java, Javascript, etc. Use and enjoy DOS for what it was good at, and occasionally be unreasonable and do something cool that people are not expecting. But don't expect to keep parity with Linux, Windows, MacOS and ChromeOS - that is just not feasible. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Bob Schwier schwepes2...@yahoo.com wrote: I'll miss copper because it continued to serve in a black out. Without power there is no fiber optic. That's what battery powered cell phones are for. I was around when the major blackout hit the NE. The fact that what is now Verizon supplied its own power over phone lines meant the phone system worked and permitted me to stay in touch with with my employer, because I was the guy who would have to go to the office I worked out of to bring things back up once power was restored to the area where it was located. But with a blackout covering the NE, the phone was pretty much the *only* thing that worked. Same difference as we transition to fiber. Cell phones will still work as long as the batteries last. If the blackout lasts long enough that everyone's phone dies, you have much larger problems than whether you can surf the web. bs __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Tax time; my dos Qpro macros will be adding up my incomes so I can pay the man. Improved tech makes things better; just ask Sony. Broadband use made the hacks possible. My dial up is so slow it takes a half hour to download a virus, plenty of time to hit stop. DS On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 13:35:20 -0500 dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:07 PM, Ralf Quint freedos...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/16/2014 4:01 PM, dmccunney wrote: DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second coming of Linux... The fundamental issue for DOS is exactly what you *do* with it, and *why* you might use DOS in preference to something else like Linux. The fact that something *can* run DOS doesn't necessarily mean it *should*. Works the other way around as well. Just because you can get basic web browsing features or other uses of the Internet on (Free)DOS, doesn't mean you should either... Precisely. I don't even try. In my case, the question of Why use DOS? is mostly for fun, and to run a few ancient DOS apps I still use. The machine that runs FreeDOS is largely a testbed to see what performance I can wring out of limited hardware. It more-or-less runs Win2K (but *not* XP) and a couple of flavors of Linux, and FreeDOS. Win2K and Linux plod along. FreeDOS flies on it. But I *don't* try to surf the web from it, in any OS. It's simply too slow, even with a CAT5 connection to a port on my router. I also don't attempt to watch YouTube. Audio is okay, but video is a series of still pictures. The machine simply isn't powerful enough to do such things acceptably. My desktop is a refurb Dell unit, with a quad-core Xeon CPU at 2.4ghz, 8GB RAM, and boots from a 240GB SSD, with an ATI video card with a gig of video RAM. It multi-boots Win 7 Pro and Ubuntu 14.04, nad has a CAT5 connection to my router, which connects to a 100mbit feed from my ISP. It's a pleasure to use. Things like web surfing and YouTube are done on it. I can even run the few old DOS apps on it, using the vDOS fork of the open source DOSBox emulator. vDOS is Windows specifric and intended to run character mode business apps. (There is extensive discussion on the WordStar list on how to configure it to run WS 7 on 64 bit Win 7 and Win 8.1 machines.) Folks complaining about the problems involved in trying to surf the web and view video from DOS are frankly wasting their time. It might be theoretically possible to enhance DOS support for such things, but it would be a significant development effort. Who would do it, and why would they bother? No one is going to *pay* to have it done, and there are more rewarding things to code for fun. Ralf __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 - - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clk trk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user Find the Perfect Watch Shop Blount Jewels For The Perfect Watch This Holiday Season. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3165/549460d5e7aae60d558b1mp13duc ** From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052 *** -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: Improved tech makes things better; just ask Sony. Broadband use made the hacks possible. Broadband made hacks delivery *faster*. They were already *possible*. Viruses were a pestilence back when everything was still DOS and dial up. My dial up is so slow it takes a half hour to download a virus, plenty of time to hit stop. Assuming you know what you're downloading *is* a virus. But if you know that, why are you downloading? But that's a thought: we should all insure security by abjuring broadband and going back to dial up. Yeah, right. Not *possible* where I am. Verizon is making copper go away as fast as it can, and for good reason. I wouldn't do it if it *were* possible. Too much of what I do requires broadband. DS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
I'll miss copper because it continued to serve in a black out. Without power there is no fiber optic. bs On Fri, 12/19/14, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60) To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Friday, December 19, 2014, 2:34 PM On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote: Improved tech makes things better; just ask Sony. Broadband use made the hacks possible. Broadband made hacks delivery *faster*. They were already *possible*. Viruses were a pestilence back when everything was still DOS and dial up. My dial up is so slow it takes a half hour to download a virus, plenty of time to hit stop. Assuming you know what you're downloading *is* a virus. But if you know that, why are you downloading? But that's a thought: we should all insure security by abjuring broadband and going back to dial up. Yeah, right. Not *possible* where I am. Verizon is making copper go away as fast as it can, and for good reason. I wouldn't do it if it *were* possible. Too much of what I do requires broadband. DS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:07 PM, Ralf Quint freedos...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/16/2014 4:01 PM, dmccunney wrote: DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second coming of Linux... The fundamental issue for DOS is exactly what you *do* with it, and *why* you might use DOS in preference to something else like Linux. The fact that something *can* run DOS doesn't necessarily mean it *should*. Works the other way around as well. Just because you can get basic web browsing features or other uses of the Internet on (Free)DOS, doesn't mean you should either... Precisely. I don't even try. In my case, the question of Why use DOS? is mostly for fun, and to run a few ancient DOS apps I still use. The machine that runs FreeDOS is largely a testbed to see what performance I can wring out of limited hardware. It more-or-less runs Win2K (but *not* XP) and a couple of flavors of Linux, and FreeDOS. Win2K and Linux plod along. FreeDOS flies on it. But I *don't* try to surf the web from it, in any OS. It's simply too slow, even with a CAT5 connection to a port on my router. I also don't attempt to watch YouTube. Audio is okay, but video is a series of still pictures. The machine simply isn't powerful enough to do such things acceptably. My desktop is a refurb Dell unit, with a quad-core Xeon CPU at 2.4ghz, 8GB RAM, and boots from a 240GB SSD, with an ATI video card with a gig of video RAM. It multi-boots Win 7 Pro and Ubuntu 14.04, nad has a CAT5 connection to my router, which connects to a 100mbit feed from my ISP. It's a pleasure to use. Things like web surfing and YouTube are done on it. I can even run the few old DOS apps on it, using the vDOS fork of the open source DOSBox emulator. vDOS is Windows specifric and intended to run character mode business apps. (There is extensive discussion on the WordStar list on how to configure it to run WS 7 on 64 bit Win 7 and Win 8.1 machines.) Folks complaining about the problems involved in trying to surf the web and view video from DOS are frankly wasting their time. It might be theoretically possible to enhance DOS support for such things, but it would be a significant development effort. Who would do it, and why would they bother? No one is going to *pay* to have it done, and there are more rewarding things to code for fun. Ralf __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
from Rugxulo: Light-weight? First of all, Linux (and similarly Windows and Mac) don't target older machines. To them, an old machine is i686 with 256 MB of RAM, and even that is too old for most distros. The bare minimum (for now) seems to be a Pentium 4, and that won't be supported forever. I assume most developers want to go AMD64 only, if they can get away with it. Flash is almost dead (AFAIK). I don't think it's even officially supported at all except for P4s (SSE2) on Chrome's Pepper API (although IE has most of it built-in as well, I think?). Firefox has to use an older version. They might have even said they'll abandon it entirely in a few years. The biggest problem is that it sucks up battery life and is proprietary and buggy. Distros like GNU's Trisquel (free/libre Ubuntu LTS variant) have Gnash which partially works (YouTube is the obvious test case), but I don't know how reliable it is overall (can't test everything!). There are some Linux distros for older computers, and NetBSD and FreeBSD can be installed on older computers. But building packages or the system from source is likely to be prohibitively slow on older machines. Flash is still painfully prevalent, see www.dekalbfarmersmarket.com : just a background and nothing more laguanajuatoky.com : partially viewable without Flash, but it's a nuisance; southwestfarmersmarket.com : very limited viewability without Flash But there are some websites where lack of Flash support only stops junk advertising from showing. Tom -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote: The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't care enough. If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. Untrue. What you need is a current HTML and JavaScript engines. In IE that's Trident. In Firefox, it's Gecko with IonMonkey. In Safari, it's Webkit and V8. In Chrome and now Opera, it's Blink and V8. There are an assortment of browsers based on Qt and Webkit available. One I'm using is Qupzilla, open source and available for Windows, Linux, and OS/X (including a portable Windows version.) See http://www.qupzilla.com/ Another is QtWeb, which is lighter weight but has issues I'm not sure will get fixed. See http://qtweb.net/ Qupzilla has the virtue of being actively maintained. Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why people are pushing HTML5.) __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Thomas Mueller mueller6...@twc.com said: There are some Linux distros for older computers, and NetBSD and FreeBSD can be installed on older computers. But building packages or the system from source is likely to be prohibitively slow on older machines. But these distros do not run newer browsers. Indeed, there will be even less apps available to a Linux distro that runs (plods ?) in a 486 or early Pentium than to DOS. But there are some websites where lack of Flash support only stops junk advertising from showing. Fortunately, most of those that use Flash fall in this category. I agree with D M Cunney that javascript is the most important shortcoming of DOS browsers, but I think HTML5 less needed than SSL v3 JAS -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Jose Antonio Senna jasse...@vivointernetdiscada.com.br wrote: I agree with D M Cunney that javascript is the most important shortcoming of DOS browsers, but I think HTML5 less needed than SSL v3 People are full speed ahead on HTML5 largely because the video keyword will theoretically let you stream video without needing Flash. (You'll still be\need a codec, but that will be part of the browser, not a third-party plugin.) I use the Dillo browser in Linux, and Dillo doesn't support JavaScript. (There are longer term plans for it to do so, but they need to do extensive DOM support first.) In Linux, I use Dillo as a browser for local HTML files, where JavaScript is not a requirement. For web browsing, I use Firefox. I don't currently try to use a browser in DOS. Since I have a 100mbit broadband connection, and systems running Windows, Linux, and Android that can connect through it, there is no need for or point to trying to connect from DOS, and I don't bother. JAS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:59 AM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote: The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't care enough. If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. Untrue. What you need is a current HTML and JavaScript engines. There is a pervasive bias against anything that isn't Windows, OS X, or Linux, and those (at least in modern, supported versions) don't target legacy machines (esp. nothing older than a P4). The trend seems to be to eventually obsolete i686 entirely in lieu of AMD64 (and ARMv7 or even AArch64 [ARMv8?] or whatnot). It's not fun being on the receiving end of obsoletion. It's not always for technical reasons either. In IE that's Trident. In Firefox, it's Gecko with IonMonkey. In Safari, it's Webkit and V8. In Chrome and now Opera, it's Blink and V8. These only give you the illusion of choice. In reality, you have no say at all. Upstream decides everything, and they aren't always considerate of end users. Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Availability_on_desktop_operating_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Alternatives The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why people are pushing HTML5.) Flash is probably legitimately half dead. It's not well-supported anymore. It was very popular (and still is), but there were many people who actively hated it. It's hard to go against the grain. It's hard to support or use something when everyone is fighting against it. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:59 AM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote: The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't care enough. If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. Untrue. What you need is a current HTML and JavaScript engines. There is a pervasive bias against anything that isn't Windows, OS X, or Linux, and those (at least in modern, supported versions) don't target legacy machines (esp. nothing older than a P4). The trend seems to be to eventually obsolete i686 entirely in lieu of AMD64 (and ARMv7 or even AArch64 [ARMv8?] or whatnot). And why *should* they target legacy machines? Exactly how long is something supposed to be supported? Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in server installations for power savings. It's not fun being on the receiving end of obsoletion. It's not always for technical reasons either. No it's not fun. But in general, you're stuck with it. Hardware is cheap. If you can't *afford* to upgrade to something more modern and supported, you have far more important problems than software support for legacy hardware. In IE that's Trident. In Firefox, it's Gecko with IonMonkey. In Safari, it's Webkit and V8. In Chrome and now Opera, it's Blink and V8. These only give you the illusion of choice. In reality, you have no say at all. Upstream decides everything, and they aren't always considerate of end users. Oh, bullshit. Who is this upstream you speak of? There are multiple choices in browsers for reasonably current hardware (I think I have a dozen or so installed for testing.)They may be based on common underlying runtimes, but that's largely inevitable. The nature of the computer market is winnowing and things falling by the wayside until a few approaches dominate. And frankly, what most folks are looking for is freedom *from* choice, and a *reduction* in the number of things they must consciously consider and make decisions about. Offer folks two or three choices of something, and all is well. Offer a dozen, and watch activity grind to a halt. Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Availability_on_desktop_operating_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Alternatives I *did* say on the *desktop*. I'm well aware Flash is going away in mobile. The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why people are pushing HTML5.) Flash is probably legitimately half dead. It's not well-supported anymore. It was very popular (and still is), but there were many people who actively hated it. It's hard to go against the grain. It's hard to support or use something when everyone is fighting against it. I'll be just as happy when Flash is gone. For instance, I use Firefox, and Firefox has a plugin_helper application called from within it when a plugin is run. It provides a sandbox in which the plugin can execute so a crashing plugin doesn't take the browser with it. Guess which plugin was a worst offender that pushed Mozilla into creating plugin_helper? But I'm not holding my breath while Flash goes away. A technology that pervasive and deeply embedded doesn't simply go away overnight. IT needs to be replaced, and the content that used it recrafted in something else. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: [SNIP] There is a pervasive bias against anything that isn't Windows, OS X, or Linux, and those (at least in modern, supported versions) don't target legacy machines (esp. nothing older than a P4). The trend seems to be to eventually obsolete i686 entirely in lieu of AMD64 (and ARMv7 or even AArch64 [ARMv8?] or whatnot). And why *should* they target legacy machines? Exactly how long is something supposed to be supported? Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in server installations for power savings. There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) [0][1][2] and DMP's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots FreeDOS. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quark [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Edison [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Galileo [3] http://www.86duino.com/ -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On 12/16/2014 2:50 PM, Louis Santillan wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in server installations for power savings. There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) [0][1][2] and DMP's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots FreeDOS. Even if all Intel based PCs are equipped with 64bit capable CPUs, they will just as happy run 32bit or even 16bit code just fine. And there are as mentioned above now with the Intel Quark X1000 processor again 32bit, single core/thread CPUs coming out for which a 16bit FreeDOS can be a very viable option for an OS to run on... DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second coming of Linux... Ralf --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Louis Santillan lpsan...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote: And why *should* they target legacy machines? Exactly how long is something supposed to be supported? Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in server installations for power savings. There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) [0][1][2] and DMP's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots FreeDOS. Yes, there are plenty of 32 bit CPUs still being made, but increasingly they are for embedded applications. (For that matter, tehre are oodles of 8 bit and 16 bit parts still made for the same reasons.) I was talking about what you see if you go to purchase a desktop/laptop/netbook/what have you. IoT kit is not stuff end users will run to access the Internet and browse websites. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On 12/16/2014 3:56 PM, dmccunney wrote: I was talking about what you see if you go to purchase a desktop/laptop/netbook/what have you. IoT kit is not stuff end users will run to access the Internet and browse websites. Then why would you use DOS for those kind of tasks? It's the same thing. Time and technology have moved on, DOS was devised at a time well before the beginnings of the Internet. Trying to shoehorn any of such tasks into/onto DOS is just a world of hurt. Use DOS for what it is best and still useful, run on limited hardware or setups that need more direct access to hardware, like embedded devices. If you want to use the Internet and you have a recent machine, use Windows or Linux, that what they are good at. Use the best tool for the task... Ralf --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On 12/16/2014 4:01 PM, dmccunney wrote: Even if all Intel based PCs are equipped with 64bit capable CPUs, they will just as happy run 32bit or even 16bit code just fine. Assuming OS support is there. The instruction set is the same. Various system calls may not be. If you want to run DOS apps on a 64 bit Windows machine, you need a VM or emulator. They won't run native. Considering that this is a FreeDOS mailing list, you can run FreeDOS natively on any such machine. The only immediate hurdle on machines less than a year or so old is if they have a UEFI ony BIOS, but even then, you can work around that. And there are as mentioned above now with the Intel Quark X1000 processor again 32bit, single core/thread CPUs coming out for which a 16bit FreeDOS can be a very viable option for an OS to run on... DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second coming of Linux... The fundamental issue for DOS is exactly what you *do* with it, and *why* you might use DOS in preference to something else like Linux. The fact that something *can* run DOS doesn't necessarily mean it *should*. Works the other way around as well. Just because you can get basic web browsing features or other uses of the Internet on (Free)DOS, doesn't mean you should either... Ralf --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi, sorry for late reply, On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Thomas Mueller mueller6...@twc.com wrote: from Rugxulo: Even the lighter-weight graphic web browsers for Linux/Unix support Javascript and HTTPS, Mozilla Firefox and Seamonkey, and maybe some others, also support HTML5, Light-weight? First of all, Linux (and similarly Windows and Mac) don't target older machines. To them, an old machine is i686 with 256 MB of RAM, and even that is too old for most distros. The bare minimum (for now) seems to be a Pentium 4, and that won't be supported forever. I assume most developers want to go AMD64 only, if they can get away with it. but Flash is a big problem. Flash is almost dead (AFAIK). I don't think it's even officially supported at all except for P4s (SSE2) on Chrome's Pepper API (although IE has most of it built-in as well, I think?). Firefox has to use an older version. They might have even said they'll abandon it entirely in a few years. The biggest problem is that it sucks up battery life and is proprietary and buggy. Distros like GNU's Trisquel (free/libre Ubuntu LTS variant) have Gnash which partially works (YouTube is the obvious test case), but I don't know how reliable it is overall (can't test everything!). Mozilla Firefox and Seamonkey run on BSD as well as Linux. FreeBSD ports also includes Netsurf, Qupzilla, Midori and Epiphany; KDE includes Konqueror; Javascript and HTTPS are supported. I like FreeBSD, but nobody uses it (compared to Linux). Opera (now using Blink) doesn't support it anymore, AFAIK. Firefox and Chrome allegedly won't run without SSE2. But Seamonkey claims to still run on a Pentium 233, but I haven't tried that either. The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't care enough. If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
