Re: [FRIAM] CNET reviews Psystar's Snow Leopard-based Open(Q) | Crave - CNET

[Marcus Daniels]

russell standish wrote:

OSX on a VM partition would be fantastic news for me, if the price is
right.
If that comes to fruition, there won't be any more $25 OSX upgrades from 
Apple, that's for sure.


Fedora 11 and Ubuntu 9.10 work on MacBooks, but not on external 
drives.   The hybrid GPT/MBR partitioning is just voodoo as far as I can 
tell, but it is possible to have Windows 7, Fedora 11 and Snow Leopard 
on the same laptop (I do).   Due to partitioning limitations, I had to 
restrict my Fedora 11 partition to a single partition, and not use ext4 
(so that I could boot from the same partition) nor have a swap drive 
(loopback swap files work though).


VMware isn't always an option if you are working with hardware like 
GPUs.   It's easier with desktops (e.g. Mac Pro), where you can take a 
whole SATA drive. 

Otherwise, VMware Fusion is a great product IMO. 


Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Cloud computing

[Marcus Daniels]

Owen Densmore wrote:
I'd fire anyone having a company spreadsheet or document on their 
laptop and not in the cloud.  Or company email on their computer (POP 
rather than IMAP).  It is just too expensive and dangerous.
LANL, for example, mandates full disk encryption on hard drives.   Hard 
drives are cheap.   I'd much rather put up with this than not to be able 
study a paper that was stranded on an IMAP server.   But IMAP or POP is 
not the issue, the issue is connected vs. disconnected.   Wireless is 
not everywhere and where it is available, it is not reliably high 
bandwidth and low latency. 


Marcus




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Re: [FRIAM] flocking windmills

[Marcus Daniels]

Roger Critchlow wrote:
Well, I better keep my voodoo fluid dynamics speculations to myself in 
the future.



Nah.  The venue for objection was the APS meeting in Minneapolis...



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Re: [FRIAM] Some Facts about Arrays!

[Marcus Daniels]

plissa...@comcast.net wrote:


There is NO SUCH THING AS A BOW WAVE in incompressible continuum flows. 


Wind farms only involve incompressible flows?




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Re: [FRIAM] Wind Farm Comprssible Flow!

[Marcus Daniels]

plissa...@comcast.net wrote:
I didn't know that wind turbines experienced compressible flow.  This 
makes all my papers and books on the subject wrong, although the 
operating turbines designed by my codes don't seem to know this! 

Is it that compressible flow is a small influence, or not relevant in 
traditional wind farms, or can it not occur for some reason?   It's 
unclear what the claim is from that press release.   I asked one of the 
authors for their slides.



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Re: [FRIAM] Array Interference

[Marcus Daniels]

plissa...@comcast.net wrote:
I was concerned at his naive statement that the power increases 
because the rotational speed increases.
Wouldn't it be remarkable for these Caltech guys (ok, trained in 
aerodynamics but researching biopropulsion) to not hold torque fixed in 
their models?


Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Array Interference

[Marcus Daniels]

plissa...@comcast.net wrote:


When I study it, I'll brief Friamers on the content, and its validity. 


Looking forward to that!

Thanks,

Marcus


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[FRIAM] fluid dynamics and art

[Marcus Daniels]

Hi,

Steve wrote:

SimTable (tm) is always in need of more
notional models to demonstrate it's utility across a wide variety of
domains, especially those likely to be involved in public-policy
decisions.
Also, the SF Complex art crowd might be interested in looking at 
interactive exhibits using fluid dynamics algorithms. 


Here are some cool videos of vortex sheets and vortices, etc.

http://media.efluids.com/galleries/vortex?medium=625
http://media.efluids.com/galleries/vortex?medium=578
http://media.efluids.com/galleries/vortex?medium=64

I recently had the opportunity to work on a OpenCL compressible gas 
dynamics code and was immediately struck by the beauty of these 
simulations.   I'm neither an artist or an applied math guy, so all I 
could do is make it go fast... A dollar a gigaflop these days with PS3s 
and GPUs, etc.


http://sourceforge.net/projects/hypgad/

Marcus



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[FRIAM] wtf

[Marcus Daniels]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126102247889095011.html


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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe Complex lands Defense contract - The Santa Fe New Mexican

[Marcus Daniels]

Thin edge of the wedge!!  :-)


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Re: [FRIAM] GDP vs National Debt by Country |

[Marcus Daniels]

Good times..

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html


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Re: [FRIAM] Virtual-world genetic algorithm example... help!

[Marcus Daniels]

Russ Abbott wrote:
In a system like this though, you always have to start with some 
primitives. It's really matter of where you can get from the 
primitives and whether there is a steadily uphill (in terms of 
fitness) path for getting there.
That's a question of how diversity is maintained in population and what 
kind of transformations are made to the population of programs.   If 
transformations are modular or there is no mechanism for maintaining 
diversity, then a rugged fitness landscape may well cause problems -- 
the population can reduce to, in-effect, one individual and be stuck in 
a rut forever.   It's a problem with optimization algorithms in general, 
not just genetic programming.
It's not that one can't include a looping structure as a primitive. 
It's that GP is not good at using it.
I suspect enhanced evaluation mechanisms are needed to influence 
fitness.   I speculate that historical human imperative programing 
habits aren't particularly helpful either for automated programming 
(better to have lambdas bound to names and recursion). 

The size of the expression tree has been used in GP for a long time to 
encourage parsimonious solutions to be found, but I suspect there hasn't 
been much work has been done to provide a cost of a calculation.  By 
that I mean stuff like L3 cache misses (how irregular is the memory 
access pattern?), the maximum depth of the stack pointer (is it 
non-terminating recursion?), instructions retired (logically how 
efficient is the calculation?), and total joules used (what does it 
really take to make CPUs do it?).  Optimizing over that space is what 
quantifies the difference between good and bad programs..


Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] How do you auto-create a network diagram?

[Marcus Daniels]

Miles Parker wrote:
On the subject of data analysis, I should mention KNIME -- 
see: http://www.knime.org/introduction/screenshots. It's really easy 
to setup data analytics like workflows.
This looks a lot like the popular commercial package Pipeline Pilot from 
Accelrys.

On Jul 12, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:


For opensource graph visualization, you might check out:
 http://gephi.org/

Also,  http://www.cytoscape.org/




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Re: [FRIAM] [sfx: Discuss] The Go Programming Language

[Marcus Daniels]

Roger Critchlow wrote:
I found it even more apparent on this pass through that the language 
is very well built for the kind of parallel programming that I've 
become comfortable with in erlang.  That is, go makes it very easy to 
spin off a new thread/process/goroutine and establish communications 
using channels.  This is a matter of being able to easily instantiate 
the appropriate graph of communicating sequential processes to a 
computational task, receive the result of the computation when it 
finishes or fails, and know that all the cruft got cleaned up.  So if 
your computation can be pipelined or fanned out onto multiple cores, 
I can see that goroutines and channels are appealing programming 
abstractions, but have a hard time believing they could scale.  Seems 
like the more goroutines you have the more CPU cycles that will be 
absorbed in switching amongst them.I could see how distributed 
Erlang would scale with lots of high latency _network_ messages in 
flight -- the amount of time for switching would be small compared to 
the latency of the message.   That wouldn't seem to be the case with 
Google Go, which would all be in core. 


Marcus




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Re: [FRIAM] [sfx: Discuss] The Go Programming Language

[Marcus Daniels]

Roger Critchlow wrote:


I can see that goroutines and channels are appealing programming
abstractions, but have a hard time believing they could scale.
 Seems like the more goroutines you have the more CPU cycles that
will be absorbed in switching amongst them.I could see how
distributed Erlang would scale with lots of high latency _network_
messages in flight -- the amount of time for switching would be
small compared to the latency of the message.   That wouldn't seem
to be the case with Google Go, which would all be in core.

Right, but is that a Google Go problem or is it our failure to build 
useful multi-core processors?
It don't think it's a processor design issue so much as a network and 
memory subsystem design issue.  Given:


1) Concurrency = Bandwidth * Latency
2) Latency can only be minimized so far
3) Bandwidth can always be increased by adding wires.

By being limited to SMP type systems, Go is assuming latency is already 
minimized.   But the way you really get a lot of concurrency is by 
allowing for higher latency communication (e.g. long wires between many 
processors).   Go does not provide a programming model where memory can 
be accessed across cores.  Even if the operating system did that for 
you, the Go scheduler would only know about spinning threads for pending 
channels, not for pending memory.  To my mind, what would be preferable 
is to have all memory to be channels (i.e. as Cray XMT implements in 
hardware).   

Alternatively, keep a small number of channels (compared to the number 
memory addresses) but constrain the use of memory to named (typically 
local) address spaces, i.e. Sequoia or OpenCL. 


Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] [sfx: Discuss] The Go Programming Language

[Marcus Daniels]

Owen Densmore wrote:
I've been on the Go Nuts group and found that they apparently are fairly slim group 

Unlike,

http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/
http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html

http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2010/05/27/announcing-intel-concurrent-collections-for-haskell-01/

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/haskell-retrospective/Haskell-Erlang-Jun09.pdf 




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[FRIAM] WebCL + Bitcoin = $$$

[Marcus Daniels]

http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/37619/?p1=A1a=f

http://www.bitcoinfrenzy.com/2011/05/two-webcl-web-based-bitcoin-miners.html


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[FRIAM] now that's walking the talk!

[Marcus Daniels]

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-woman-who-ate-chernobyl-s-apples

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Re: [FRIAM] The Attack on Truth - The Chronicle of Higher Education

[Marcus Daniels]

“Yeah, well, be disgusted, but try not to get too righteous about it and spare 
us the expressions of shocked outrage.”

As we are coming up on the Tour de France, I’m reminded of the outrage over 
cheating.   What exactly is the question being asked by that competition?  Is 
it to find the genetically most gifted person?   The person that trains the 
hardest?   The best use of barely-legal training techniques?   The best team 
tactics?  The most advanced alloys and aerodynamics?  Isn’t it unfair that a 
genetically gifted person would have to compete against a less gifted person?   
My take on all that is all of the cyclists put themselves through a hell that 
is just unimaginable to most people, but there is no level playing field, just 
various definitions of one.   What would anyone do in that situation -- faced 
with a short 10 year career -- but try to win at all costs?So many useless 
spectators.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] The Attack on Truth - The Chronicle of Higher Education

[Marcus Daniels]

Abductively!

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2015 1:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Attack on Truth - The Chronicle of Higher Education

Two great gems from this thread!
 On 06/09/2015 10:36 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
 So, are there any entirely good or entirely bad persons?  Or are they 
 entirely figments of our imaginations?
absolutely!

And Glen wrote:
 Thank God I'm agnostic.

Absolutely!



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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

Are  there not more and less risky sources?   If you have source that provides 
you with high-quality, predictive information, over and over and they are 
right, should not that individual be allowed less scrutiny than a person that 
has no track record, or a bad track record?   Given finite attention, doesn't a 
person have to decide what to scrutinize, and what to let slide?

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen e. p. ropella
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 5:28 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?


That scratch in my surface jumps me back, yet again, to the postmodern point:

Beware of the online war of propaganda
http://news.usc.edu/82853/beware-of-the-war-of-propaganda-taking-place-online/

 “People normally trust online content,” said Farshad Kooti, one of the Ph.D. 
 candidates at USC Viterbi who worked with Galstyan. “Unfortunately, this 
 introduces an opportunity to spread misinformation by using automated bots 
 that are very hard to detect.”

Misinformation and disinformation are NOT the threat.  Trust is the threat.

--
glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847


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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

``That person also could have said something like People have diverse methods 
for deciding what online content to trust, which would also been more useful.  
It would imply that some of us are gullible and some of us are skeptical.  But 
I think what they really meant was People are not very diverse in deciding 
what online content to trust.  They simply believe what they see without any 
scrutiny.  And, worse, the article's and project's very existence is implying 
that it's OK to be gullible, we'll just clamp down on these evil sources of 
[dm]isinformation for you.  You just go on believing whatever you see without 
any scrutiny.''

Are the trustworthy sources playing a long game?   The defection will come, it 
is just a matter of how many people are sucked-in before it does..

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

Yeah but that process will tend toward the least common denominator.  It's why 
we end up with silly infotainment news programs that emphasize the weather 
forecast and cute pictures of kids on their birthday.

CBS or Comcast cover that, but also the evening news.  In various situations 
such conglomerates may find it in their interest to present  information in 
ways that benefit their bottom line, even to audiences that are above the least 
common denominator.   Even if their news programs are credible and honest most 
of the time, it's exceptional times where their reputation can be monetized.  
These situations could plausibly impact people as much as propaganda.  

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Tom Johnson's opinion piece in Santa Fe NewMexican

[Marcus Daniels]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/what-silicon-valley-can-learn-from-seoul.html

“Much of this was made possible by two decades of enormous public investment. “

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 9:12 AM
To: friam@redfish.com; Wedtech@Redfish. Com
Subject: [FRIAM] Tom Johnson's opinion piece in Santa Fe NewMexican


http://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/my_view/are-politicians-foreclosing-on-high-tech-future/article_6813cb82-5952-5926-82c9-725ef0a0aecc.html

Are politicians foreclosing on high-tech future
Tom Johnson | 0 
commentshttp://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/my_view/are-politicians-foreclosing-on-high-tech-future/article_6813cb82-5952-5926-82c9-725ef0a0aecc.html#user-comment-area

It is sad, frustrating and discouraging to read something written by 
politicians that demonstrates they apparently have not done appropriate 
research before making public declarations.

This is especially so when such an elected official is in a position of 
specific legislative influence.

That happened last week when Rep. James Smith of District 22, chairman of the 
interim Science, Technology and Telecom Committee in the New Mexico House, 
wrote about telecommunications policy (“Could the FCC foreclose on high-tech 
future,” My View, June 6).

Addressing the Federal Communications Commission’s regulation of the Internet, 
Smith wrote, “light regulation … gave Internet providers freedom to innovate 
with new services and new infrastructure … .” Further, “this move … has fueled 
the dramatic expansion of Internet technology in America.

“This symbiotic relationship between minimal regulation and maximum investment 
and innovation continues,” he said.

First, remember that the initial Internet concepts and technologies were 
developed with taxpayer research dollars, not private enterprise investment. 
Second, the “new services” are coming not from the digital providers, but from 
clever individuals and talented startup teams that could possibly do even more 
if they had access to true broadband at affordable prices.

Third, research year after year indicates that U.S. citizens are paying higher 
prices for slower connectivity. As the Open Technology Institute reports: “Data 
that we have collected in the past three years demonstrates that the majority 
of U.S. cities surveyed lag behind their international peers, paying more money 
for slower Internet access.” (See http://bit.ly/1FJL1vB and 
http://bit.ly/1MAlYRa)

Companies providing Internet connectivity — and we really only have three in 
Santa Fe, and none providing true high-speed, fiber-optic connections — all 
seek to minimize their costs and maximize their revenue. That’s inherent in 
capitalism. For customers, that means minimal connectivity, slow speeds and 
high monthly bills.

Appropriate “regulation” of the Internet would seek collaborative 
government/private enterprise endeavors with the goal of maximizing customer 
benefits (i.e. fiber to the home with maximum digital up and down speeds) at 
minimal cost. Such would be the feedstock for economic, social, educational, 
health and governmental progress in the digital era.

The high-speed, digital train is rapidly leaving stations around the world. New 
Mexico needs political conductors and engineers capable of running that train 
with informed knowledge, insight and vision.

Tom Johnson is co-founder of the Institute for Analytic Journalism in Santa Fe.

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Re: [FRIAM] The Attack on Truth - The Chronicle of Higher Education

[Marcus Daniels]

Is the failure to perform and encourage independent reasoning the same thing as 
stifling it?
Are not those that presume that role also imposing a potentially stifling 
control system just like religious codes of conduct?

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Attack on Truth - The Chronicle of Higher Education

It has been suggestedhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age that 
stifling of independent reasoning (aka willful ignorance) contributed to the 
end of the Islamic Golden Age. I've seen other references calling it a rise in 
anti-rationalism.  Western civilization may be heading the same way.

Robert C
PS sorry to enter the thread a little late. R
On 6/10/15 7:05 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

-- rec --

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Steve Smith 
sasm...@swcp.commailto:sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

Nick,

It's the _shocked_ outrage I find tiresome.  By all means be outraged at any 
and all forms of corruption that take your fancy, and forge that outrage into 
action.

But if someone is shocked and thinks that shock is worth mentioning, then he or 
she hasn't been paying attention or is exhibiting another kind of willful 
ignorance.

-- rec --
Roger (et alii) -

And what of shocked but not surprised?

The longer I live, the more I experience this dichotomy... my intellectual self 
has catalogued a wide enough range of behaviour and experience in the world, 
that when confronted with a specific new point fact in the universe, I can 
usually find a place to hang it in my world-view tree, but that doesn't mean it 
doesn't disturb my soul when I first apprehend the factoid in question.

I wonder how this is affected by our wide-ranging apprehension mediated 
(mostly, or formerly) by journalism (nod to Tom) and now (more recently) 
crowd-sourcing of information from around the world (including in the 
(willfully hidden from self?) corners of our own back yards).  On one hand we 
get desensitized (thus losing shock value) and on the other hand we are given 
much more context in which to help us properly understand whatever shocked but 
not surprised factoid just got bounced off our apprehension.

Every time I feel shocked (if not surprised) I am thankful that my soul 
remains tender enough to experience that.  While I do have plenty of callouses 
of cynicism, it is nice to be reminded that I am still alive inside these 
multiple layers of insulation (economic and other forms of security, cynicism, 
etc.).

- Steve



On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Nick Thompson 
nickthomp...@earthlink.netmailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:
But Roger, isn’t this a ticket to apathy?  Where is the spur to action without 
outrage?  I know that question sounds odd, but I am really asking it.  Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam 
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.commailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf 
Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2015 1:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Attack on Truth - The Chronicle of Higher Education

Of course the really fun thing about statistics is the ongoing discussion about 
the willful ignorance of scientists submitting papers with technically 
correct but wholly dubious claims of statistical significance, because -- 
rather, becorrelate -- their salaries depend on getting published.  Funny that 
the language naturally inserts a causal claim into that observation, where I 
would rather put the cause on the system than the individuals, and I have to 
invent a word to back off

I'm tending to see this issue theologically.  The technical name for we're all 
imperfect and we've always been so is original sin.  Feeling a bit of impostor 
syndrome?  That's how the personal experience of original sin manifests.  
Disgusted that cops aren't fair, that rich people get privileges, that 
politicians repay rich people with more privileges, that FIFA is corrupt, that 
Australia outsources immigrant detention camps to Nauru, that Nauru denies 
visas to Australian civil rights lawyers seeking to defend immigrant rights, 
and so on?  Yeah, well, be disgusted, but try not to get too righteous about it 
and spare us the expressions of shocked outrage.  If you're shocked at this, 
then you haven't been paying attention.

So, are there any entirely good or entirely bad persons?  Or are they entirely 
figments of our imaginations?

-- rec --

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, glen 
geprope...@gmail.commailto:geprope...@gmail.com wrote:

Statistics is one tool.  I'm not sure it's the most powerful tool, though.  I 
tend to think the best tool is ... well, it goes by 

Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: Legal Risks to Creative Innovation and Research at College: NJ Drops Its Investigation of MIT Students

[Marcus Daniels]

Gary writes:

[..] the bigger issue is whether running my software on a users’ computer, for 
my benefit, and without that user’s knowledge and consent, amounts to stealing. 


Advertisements waste bandwidth, and JavaScript in advertisements or animated 
GIFs are in some sense stealing CPU cycles.  This was supposed to be 
alternative to advertisements.   I can understand why it would infuriate MIT, 
given these kids hacked out this impressive capability in 2 days, and their 
reward for their efforts is to get this incoherent subpoena. In the URL 
below, they don't exactly strike me as hardened criminals..

http://nodeknockout.com/teams/shoop-team

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

Nick writes:

I just think that the whole project looks like it is based on the idea that we 
can analyze, plan, and reform in the societal domain, and I wasn't sure whether 
that was your cup of tea?

It seems to me the job of a politician is to navigate the values of their 
constituency and their party.  Together they form or at least admit goals.   
The job of a scientist is to learn how systems work, and communicate it in 
precise language.   Put them together and one has a sort of constraint or 
satisfiability problem.If one wants to optimize for the maximum economic 
return from fossil fuel use, then one can look at the best estimates of the 
IPCC for what the side-effects of that would likely be.   Are they survivable, 
for the relevant people, and not too expensive within a relevant time window?  
Similarly, if one wants to have equal distribution of wealth, one set of social 
norms or another, social science can offer a set of constraints to put into a 
calculation.   If the constraint problem can't be satisfied, then either the 
model is inadequate or the goals are not responsible.If completely 
different goals can be satisfied with different cost structures, then it is no 
bu
 siness of social scientists, wearing their scientist hat, which goal to 
pursue.  To say one is a conservative or a leftist suggests which types of 
goals will be sought, but it is just a preference so long as either class of 
goal in a constraint system could be satisfied.   Like anyone, a scientist can 
have those preferences and pursue them passionately, ruthlessly, or whatever.  
But the worst thing is for a person whose profession it is to get to the fact 
of the matter, not to know if they are lying.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

What am I missing by not being a gamer?   Seems like it is like doing exercises 
from a textbook  but with higher production values.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2015 7:54 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; wedt...@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] DOH!

Well the game world drama continues- hmm only time will tell what this meens:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/150702/atvi8-k.html
In case others don't know:  this has been a terrible year for Activision and 
Blizzard
(Aka WOW, Heroes of the Storm, Destininy and of course Call of Duty.)
Blizzard in 6 months has seen it's top Project Managers leave to Atari,  and 
Bioware and 3 weeks ago Blizzards COO quit to go to a unknown competitor 
speculated to be Red Dawn (God of Wars)
Activision's COO is rumoured to be quitting for  Gearbox. (Borderlands series)
As I don't know how many on Wedtech are gamers or Org Psych Wonks.
 I've been keeping tabs on this as I'm a gamer (so what) and into webdesign-
Plus i'm  curious what other peoples opinions are.
Might be worth waching as a live case of complexity (kind of), how does this 
play out can the various people involved get  the company back on track and if 
so how.

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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

If that's what you mean, then, yeah, OK.  However, I prefer to call it Chaos 
Magick or the Left-Hand Path.  It's not dark ... just creepy. 

Discovery of better models can invalidate consensus and orthodoxy.  This leads 
to vested interests being threatened and disruption.   A typical response to 
this is to isolate the disrupter.   Tying them to stake and burning them is one 
way.  Another way is to buy up all of the intellectual property in the vicinity 
and get lawyers busy.   It's kind of all the same thing.The tactics change 
depending on social constraints, the relative size of the minority to majority, 
and governance systems already in place.   Dark is what the majority calls 
the minority.  It serves their purposes.

Marcus




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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

A pilot might either fly a physical airplane as part of an exercise or they 
may fly a simulator.  Either way, their actions are translated to a 
scorekeeping mechanism that is automated.

At some point won't these behaviors too be mastered by machine learning?   
Obviously, I'm not just taking on gaming here, I'm taking on the idea that 
people ought to master narrow skill sets at all.Ok, so a gamer can track 
7 objects instead of 3.   Machines could track hundreds or thousands.  Better 
to design the machine, no?

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

Let's say you wanted to, I don't know, _drive_ or maybe juggle ... or simple 
play flag football with your grandchildren.  It seems like multiple object 
tracking exercise might help.  

Usually the best way to develop a motor skill, or a particular kind of fitness, 
is to do that thing.  

In retrospect, the original question I was asking was a selfish question.  It 
should have been What's in it for me to be a gamer?  But generally people 
didn't know my values, and then told me about their values.  Ok.I know how 
to drive, I don't have grandchildren, don't want to play flag football, and I 
have no interest in juggling.  

So in answer to my question, Why would I want to play a game, instead of other 
things I do, the answer is, for me, I would not.  

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Greek Crisis Philosophy

[Marcus Daniels]

“Anybody who lived through wwII knows that a heap of trouble can follow when a 
whole people is thrown to the dogs, as was the German population after WWI.   
Or for that matter, the American South after the Civil War.   I am hoping for a 
positive response from the EU at this point.”

Could Greece better grow its economy with autonomy?   Is it the same thing as 
being thrown to the dogs?

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Fun Times in Ecuador

[Marcus Daniels]

I live at about 6500 feet elevation, so I don't need much heat, and never any 
cooling.
It's amazing living on the west slope of the Andes. I can drive half an hour 
and get an increase in temperature of about 10 degrees F, another half an hour 
for another 10 degrees

How about power and low-latency broadband availability? I had satellite 
internet when I lived out in Arroyo Hondo, and I about lost it. 
Looking for a mountain hideaway for a bitcoin mining empire --  something will 
have to pick up the slack when in the event of a Euro meltdown!

Marcus
 


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Re: [FRIAM] Fun Times in Ecuador

[Marcus Daniels]

Gary writes:

Fiber in most cities now, nothing in rural areas. I have a good view of a town 
20 km away that has fiber, so have wireless connection from my tower to my ISP. 
“

Is that common, or something you negotiated with the ISP?
Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

Arlo writes:

“It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to be some 
weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.”

I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading vs. 
following.   With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of wakefulness to 
enumerate the states of a finite state machine?   In what way is there anything 
to discover from a game?   I appreciate there is a craft to making a storyline 
and a craft to in designing the graphics and physics engines, and of course the 
graphic arts in designing the visual appearance of characters.But I 
appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature or art – I am not an expert 
in those things, and so I am not a participant – I am merely a consumer.   On 
the technology side, I can acknowledge that gaming software is sometimes 
impressive.   But why _bother_ writing it _except_ to sell it?   Another way to 
ask the question is how is it more significant to be a gamer than, say, a 
reader of fiction or even a moviegoer?   How is being a gamer a Thing?

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Greek Crisis Philosophy

[Marcus Daniels]

When it comes to U.S. revenue vs. spending, perhaps some states in the red (as 
opposed to red states!) should worry about getting cut off by Washington?  Now, 
New Mexico has a certain amount of visibility to Washington, but what about 
Mississippi, Alabama and Kentucky?  One might imagine North Dakota could turn 
it around with fracking tax revenue.One can imagine that Greeks probably 
don’t like being treated like Kentucky.   I’m sure Kentucky is nice,  and they 
wouldn’t like to switch to their own currency.  Or maybe they would!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Robert J. Cordingley
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 5:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Greek Crisis  Philosophy

As part of my continuing search for understanding how the world works and the 
role of philosophy...

1st question: It's been pointed out in a recent Washington Post 
articlehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/04/a-hilarious-monty-python-sketch-explains-why-greece-is-in-a-huge-crisis/
 that the fundamental problem in the current Greek crisis was epitomized in 
Monty Python's the Philosopher's Football Match 
(Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophers%27_Football_Match / 
Youtubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8) between Greece and 
Germany. Is it true?

2nd question, why does it seem that such a sketch works in the UK but never in 
the US?

Robert C


--

Cirrillian Web Development

Santa Fe, NM

http://cirrillian.com

281-989-6272 (cell)

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Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

Nick writes:

It seems to me that in the discussion we are having, the word entertainment 
cannot go undefined.  How do you tell the difference between entertainment and 
productive work you enjoy.  That it makes a profit?

Suppose individuals are represented by nodes on a graph, each positioned in 
some high dimensional space (subjectively defined, but such that they can all 
be projected onto a higher dimensional space by some oracle).   A definition of 
useful is the ability to move from one place in the space to another or to 
strengthen or weaken connections to others.   A connection on the graph could 
by any sort of transformation that occurs to one node given a change in the 
other.   One way to move is to be attached to another set of individuals that 
are already moving.   Such a set might be, say, a business.To be attached 
to that set might involve participating in a class of moves relative to other 
nodes not in the set, say, the customers of that business.These coordinated 
actions would be profit motivated actions, or more generally social 
transactions.   Similarly, there can be the opposite relationship of customer 
seeking a service (here entertainment).Some types of transformations ai
 m to create other coordinated moves, such as a fabric of connections amongst 
nodes representing theological constraints, criminality, governance, and so on.

I'm talking about another kind of useful which is movement in a subjective 
space that is not constrained, or is only minimally constrained, by the edges 
in the graph.   Movement in this space mostly does not change the configuration 
of the graph, but the nodes nonetheless move.   Useful is not defined in terms 
of a particular graph transformation, but in understanding how to navigate the 
new dimensions without the pulling and pushing from other nodes.   Given the 
possibility of collisions in the higher dimensional space, there's the 
possibility of a new social network forming there.  

Productive work can be defined socially, in terms of the graph transformations 
(one case being profit) or it can be defined privately or semi-privately by the 
subset of nodes that define their state in terms of dimensions not yet 
influenced by the various social fabrics.

Marcus  


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Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, I guess I have to play devil's advocate to myself.   Being a gamer is 
`valuable' like being a fast crossword puzzle solver or a sprinter.   It pushes 
the boundary of human potential in a way that can be compared.  It is hard to 
compete art, or even science, because the mechanisms aren't necessarily there 
to give it an objective score.Of course, there are lots of slow runners and 
average chess players and similar differences must exist in the gamer world.
I suppose I'm suspicious due to all the money that gets poured into making the 
games.  It seems like more of an entertainment platform.  Maybe that's good if 
it widens the audience that evolves to find the elite players.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 7:51 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

So's my wife!  And I love her dearly!  And after all, I made my living studying 
the behavior of crows.  I enjoy bull shit and bullshitters.

But still, Gary, are you committed to the notion that there is no useful 
distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor?   And is there 
nothing queer about the idea that some people get to earn their living doing 
bullshit, while others have to do productive labor?  

Nick 



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 9:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT!

Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less 
interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be.

Gary [husband of an artist]

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
wrote:
 Dear Friammers,



 I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something I 
 have been thinking about a LOT.  I used to be sure that there was a 
 firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical 
 term … bullshit.  Growing food and making automobile engines were 
 examples of productive labor;  designing this year’s fashions in 
 automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit.  It truly 
 disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car 
 every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, 
 after all, there always must be something new.  (Oh what has Subaru 
 done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon?  Once they comfortable boxes 
 in which to carry people around.
 Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows.
 That’s the essence of bullshit.   LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a
 decade back; can’t get it any more.  More bullshit.



 Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem to 
 me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit.  But I have begun 
 to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having 
 realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit.  Certainly that’s the 
 direction that complexity thinking leads us.  Or, at least, to the 
 realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive labor 
 to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us from 
 doing real harm.  Anyway, Penny and I published something about that
 35 years back.  Perhaps some of you like to look at it.  It’s called, “A 
 Utopian Perspective on Ecology and
 Development.”   For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors
 would love to hear from you.



 Nick



 Nicholas S. Thompson

 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

 Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/



 From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus 
 Daniels
 Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM
 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH!



 Arlo writes:



 “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to 
 be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.”



 I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading
 vs. following.   With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of
 wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine?   In what way
 is there anything to discover from a game?   I appreciate there is a craft
 to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and 
 physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual 
 appearance
 of characters.But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature
 or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant –
 I am merely a consumer.   On the technology side, I can acknowledge that
 gaming software

Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

 are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be 
made between bullshit and productive labor? 

I suggest that there are at least two definitions of useful.  1)  profitable 
and 2) useful as a tool to do other desirable things.Any creative person 
knows that #2 can exist independently of #1. I sometimes think 
entertainment products, like computer games, exist just to pacify and harness 
(for #1) those that don't know or have forgotten that they can invent all new 
things.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Greek Crisis Philosophy

[Marcus Daniels]

If Greece is unmoored from the Eurozone, there's still NATO.   The sharp end of 
the stick on that isn't Germany.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Pamela McCorduck
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 10:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Greek Crisis  Philosophy

Post World War II Germany was horrible for a couple of years with exactly the 
kinds of problems you mention, Nick: penicillin could only be had on the black 
market (i.e., from unscrupulous GIs); food was scarce; labor was mostly women 
moving bricks from bombed buildings by hand (die Trummelfrauen).  Then came the 
Marshall Plan. But Thomas Piketty has complained (to one of the major German 
newspapers yesterday) that Germany was forgiven its debts in 1950, when it was 
clear the country could never pay it off-only then came the Wirtschaftswunder, 
the Economic Miracle.

Plenty of blame to go around here. And if Greece is unmoored from Europe, you 
can see Putin moving in-naval bases, missiles, even. He's a nasty character to 
get into bed with, but when no one else offers you a blanket...




On Jul 6, 2015, at 10:45 PM, Nick Thompson 
nickthomp...@earthlink.netmailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote:


Marcus,

Perhaps!  Everything I hear suggests that even tho withdrawals are limited to 
60 bucks a day, the Greek banks will go down this week.  Am I missing 
something?  I assume that a lot of people are going to starve, die of heat 
stroke in buildings that weren't designed for no air-conditioning, in hospitals 
that don't have antibiotics, etc. etc.  I assume there will be a blossoming of 
far right and far left parties.  Rioting, and bloodshed?  Why WOULDN'T there 
be?  What do you know that I don't know?

Think of what might have happened in post WWII Germany without the Marshall 
Plan.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 11:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Greek Crisis  Philosophy

Anybody who lived through wwII knows that a heap of trouble can follow when a 
whole people is thrown to the dogs, as was the German population after WWI.   
Or for that matter, the American South after the Civil War.   I am hoping for a 
positive response from the EU at this point.

Could Greece better grow its economy with autonomy?   Is it the same thing as 
being thrown to the dogs?

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] DOH!

[Marcus Daniels]

Yup, one of the arguments in the list of reasons-gaming-is-good TED talks was 
that they can be engaging as an educational tool.

But you're clearly just trying to horrify me now.:-)

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 8:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH!


Heh, as if the argument weren't absurd enough already, there's this:

   Is Facebook the next frontier for online learning?
   
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/is-facebook-the-next-frontier-for-online-learning/

I try to avoid facebook, despite my omnivorism.  But when in Rome...

-- 
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
I got my face in the furnace, I got my snake in a sleeve



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: unikernels?

[Marcus Daniels]

OK.  But there are 2 types of commands (that may not crash): 1) those that are 
ill-formed and 2) those that are well-formed but not expected/predicted by the 
developers.  Ill-formed commands that still don't crash may have partial 
effects, right?  For example, in a lazy language, if the ill-formed part occurs 
later in the expression, then the well-formed first part is still executed.  In 
the context of a deployable that is configured (constrained to a sub-region of 
it's possible behavior), we need some way of ensuring the crispness of the 
boundary: these commands are allowed, these other one's are not.

Could these be loopholes in strong but non-strict languages?

The usual problem that occurs in non-strict languages are thunk leaks.I 
plan to plan to plan to plan ... to do something.. Delayed failure can 
occur too, but for me it is much less common then, say, ad-hoc type handling in 
a dynamically-typed language.   

I think it just comes down to the degree to which the developer articulates the 
constraints on the context as types, and then whether the language has the 
property of really enforcing those types.Also there's the problem of what 
happens when the developer just can't get across what they want in the types.  
Either because they can't be bothered or because the type system isn't 
versatile enough.  

I think these security issues come down to limitations in human attention.  
Tools and languages can help with that, but obsessiveness is needed too.  

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes,

Anyway, my point is basically that even the majority-vs-minority conception is 
in the domain of Light.  To be Dark means appreciating the entire (occult) 
mechanism, but especially focusing on the rarely used pathways.

I'll distinguish between popular and powerful pathways.   A reason the 
powers-that-be circle the wagons on things like renewable energy is because 
they had/have enough instinctive fear to imagine it could well succeed; so, in 
the medium term, obstacles must be created to slow it.  (Until they can hire 
people with interest of this occult mechanism to sort it out for them.)   Being 
 an early bitcoin miner was pretty much a requirement for being a bitcoin 
millionaire (at least with the means later to make large capital investments).  
  Even in the mainstream trading systems, the exploitable inefficiencies are 
transitory, and knowledge of them is held closely by the people that model 
those systems.   Again, rarely used pathways lead to profit.  Imagination and 
the occult go together.   Rapid growth and the occult go together.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

I recently met/visited Glen en-vivo and can report that there were no 
pentacles or other obviously occult gear (or tattoos) evident.

I refer to my prior remark about the long game.   First they build trust..  
Run!  Run!

Marcus 



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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: [ SPAM ] where is the real threat?

[Marcus Daniels]

In this use of the term occult, I suppose we are meaning both operating in 
(otherwise) uncharted territories as well as discovering new 
dimensional/modalities.

Dynamically binding this word Glen likes to the probable/apparent meaning.   
There's no point in fighting it.  :-)

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

As for the yammering (here and elsewhere) about the activism, I can only 
repeat that objective truth is also illusory. 

So long as we see these organizations in evolutionary terms, then there is no 
problem.   But then why object when thieves act like thieves?
(Because there's some species of individual that objects to that?   It's 
tautological, or merely the observation there is no free will.)  Corruption is 
just part of our human activity.  Let's just let one dog eat the other and get 
on with it..   Okay.Diversity or no diversity, who cares?

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

There's only 1 reason to interfere/intervene in the milieu around you, that is 
to participate. 

Is a search engine a participant in people's web browsing?   One can define it 
that way, but that's not the usual business model.The usual model is to 
watch and learn, and sell their observations in some way to a third party.  
Most science is about teasing apart causation in as much detail as possible in 
a controlled setting.  And engineering is about putting it back together in 
useful ways.  Not everything can be understood or controlled that way, but the 
parts and pieces often can be.   That's a fine thing to do, just not the only 
thing to do.

I have no problem with activism.   If there's no knowledge about how the parts 
and pieces of a social system work, nor experience with similar system dynamics 
behave, then, by all means dive in to the blood and muck, if that sort of thing 
is fun for you.  But if I'm going to spend time debating, say, potential 
legislation, with people that don't share my particular preferences, then it is 
a good if we negotiate a protocol for identifying good and bad arguments, so we 
don't just talk about our preferences all day.The failure to find and 
maintain such a protocol means the activity becomes political, and is no longer 
a good faith discussion, but a rivalry.The fewer mutually accepted rules -- 
the nastier or more pointless the discussion may become.   And the faster it 
gets nasty, the sooner we can found out who the big dog is, because that's all 
that is at stake.

And it is not about objective reality, it's about precision of terminology.  
What is nailed down sufficiently-well for an analysis about the logical 
consequences of the nailed-down thing or system of things.It's not clear 
what this group of people is willing to nail down, even temporarily.Just 
like it isn't clear what climate change deniers are willing to nail down.   It 
is bad faith, not skepticism, when people put their monetary or ideological 
goals ahead of the evidence, and then claim they are interested in the 
evidence.  That's what I mean by corruption.   

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

Given the personalization algorithms deployed by the major search engines, its 
hard *not* to see the search engine as a participant in browsing.

If the search engine could pass a Turing test, then ok.   

Marcus   


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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

Anyone (professional or nonprofessional) who is trying to accomplish positive 
cultural change in the real world and who would like to base their efforts on 
cultural evolutionary theory.

What is positive? What if culture is nothing more than inertia and mean 
reversion that inhibits individuals from turning over every rock and looking at 
every possibility?  Is that hypothesis not positive?  Down-sizing and 
extinction events happen in biological evolution, will these kinds of events be 
studied?  If so, are such events not positive or just part of the natural 
world?  Is it negative to relate cultural phenomena like fundamentalist 
religions to economic vitality?   Or if one can think about whatever, can one 
define it for myself as positive and that'll do?  Is this an activist 
society because there are good outcomes to seek that are self-evident to the 
group, and that one ought to know, or just because experiment is essential in 
learning about cultures work and so trying stuff out will be informative?   
What experiments are off limits, e.g. is this a U.S. based organization -- hard 
to know since they hide their domain registration!

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

Robert wrote:

The 2014 Annual Report names names for the Board of Directors See 
https://evolution-institute.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/NP_EI_2014_AnnualReport_web-printout.pdf;

Gosh, can't we put science in one bin, politics in another, and religion 
somewhere else?Has it occurred to them that QoL changes as a function of 
experience?   That people adapt to their environment?   There is not one QoL 
fitness landscape, but many, and many in a life?These folks would be scary 
if they had resources, like a ranch in Antelope OR.I was in California a 
couple weeks ago and watched Jerry Brown talk about the water crisis.  He's 
gifted in his profession of folksy persuasion, but it is clear that's his 
profession.These folks seemto think they can do that job.   I don't think 
they could begin to.Meh.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

So, your claim that it's not about objective reality is simply false.  Take 
away your assumption of objective reality and your precise terminology argument 
falls apart.

The point is it doesn't matter if the scientific method reveals a model that is 
precisely what nature is.   The illusion of objective reality is fine if it 
works.  

 Just like it isn't clear what climate change deniers are willing to nail 
 down.

 But it is NOT just like ... climate change deniers.  Are you seriously 
 making that equivalence?

 People on the left move the goal posts around to serve their argument just 
 like people on the right.
 Sometimes people remove several words and replace them with ..., gosh, I 
 don't know why!

Why?  Because removing the distracting text clarifies your analogy.  You're 
claiming that the methods of the SSCE are just like the methods of climate 
change deniers.  They're not just alike.  Yes, they probably both move goal 
posts around, because everyone does that, especially as they grow and evolve, 
learn from what does and does not work, change membership, etc.  Not nailing 
down exactly what you'll do from now till the year 3015 doesn't imply that 
you're not nailing things down just like climate change deniers aren't nailing 
things down.  Your just like analogy is so vague it's mind-bending.

 Collect some like-minded folks, create a distinguished board of directors and 
 start arguing  from authority.  The premise that there are any particular 
 positive goals has not been demonstrated.   It's just some 
 randomwish-it-were-so thing they are throwing around -- it's not a hypothesis 
 it is an assertion.At some point in their inquiry there exists the 
 possibility that their goals can be falsified.   So lose the goals and follow 
 the evidence.The voting booth is good place for this kind of activity.

OK.  What you're doing is _predicting_ what the SSCE will do.  That's fine.  
But it's bad faith of you not to be clear that this is merely your prediction.  
Or perhaps its (even weaker) your expectation.  To some extent, I expect the 
same.  But I'm usually wrong, which means I'm interested in seeing if it 
happens.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

Bah.  Was looking at a build problem.  Didn't mean to send that, meant to 
iconify that!

My objection was to your claim that nothing is for sure so might as well 
equivalence activism+science vs. science.   I see this group of people as 
lowering the bar for scientific inquiry in their field, and at once diluting 
the efforts of social workers and other kinds of advocates.   In my book that's 
a far worse offense than whatever benefit they think they'll get from coupling 
their inquiry to their advocacy.   I guess if that's what they want, they can 
have it.As for the rest, whatever, I was just killing time until my tests 
came back.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 4:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

So, your claim that it's not about objective reality is simply false.  Take 
away your assumption of objective reality and your precise terminology argument 
falls apart.

The point is it doesn't matter if the scientific method reveals a model that is 
precisely what nature is.   The illusion of objective reality is fine if it 
works.  

 Just like it isn't clear what climate change deniers are willing to nail 
 down.

 But it is NOT just like ... climate change deniers.  Are you seriously 
 making that equivalence?

 People on the left move the goal posts around to serve their argument just 
 like people on the right.
 Sometimes people remove several words and replace them with ..., gosh, I 
 don't know why!

Why?  Because removing the distracting text clarifies your analogy.  You're 
claiming that the methods of the SSCE are just like the methods of climate 
change deniers.  They're not just alike.  Yes, they probably both move goal 
posts around, because everyone does that, especially as they grow and evolve, 
learn from what does and does not work, change membership, etc.  Not nailing 
down exactly what you'll do from now till the year 3015 doesn't imply that 
you're not nailing things down just like climate change deniers aren't nailing 
things down.  Your just like analogy is so vague it's mind-bending.

 Collect some like-minded folks, create a distinguished board of directors and 
 start arguing  from authority.  The premise that there are any particular 
 positive goals has not been demonstrated.   It's just some 
 randomwish-it-were-so thing they are throwing around -- it's not a hypothesis 
 it is an assertion.At some point in their inquiry there exists the 
 possibility that their goals can be falsified.   So lose the goals and follow 
 the evidence.The voting booth is good place for this kind of activity.

OK.  What you're doing is _predicting_ what the SSCE will do.  That's fine.  
But it's bad faith of you not to be clear that this is merely your prediction.  
Or perhaps its (even weaker) your expectation.  To some extent, I expect the 
same.  But I'm usually wrong, which means I'm interested in seeing if it 
happens.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Marcus Daniels]

What can precise terminology mean without any stable referent?  Precision 
_is_ about objective reality at least to some extent.

The referent could be different sorts of things, like waves or particles.
The true nature of things forever remains unknown, but self-consistent precise 
descriptions are essential so that experiments can be conducted by different 
observers.
 
 Just like it isn't clear what climate change deniers are willing to nail down.

But it is NOT just like ... climate change deniers.  Are you seriously 
making that equivalence?

People on the left move the goal posts around to serve their argument just like 
people on the right.
Sometimes people remove several words and replace them with ..., gosh, I 
don't know why!

 It is bad faith, not skepticism, when people put their monetary or 
 ideological goals ahead of the evidence, and then claim they are interested 
 in the evidence.  That's what I mean by corruption.

OK.  I disagree, _if_ those people are up front that they put their monetary 
or ideological goals first.  It's not bad faith or corruption, then.  And you 
have to admit that by openly stating that activism is one of this new group's 
objectives, then it's a bit of a leap to accuse them of bad faith or corruption 
right off the bat.  If it were bad faith, their true objectives would not be as 
obvious as they've made them.

Collect some like-minded folks, create a distinguished board of directors and 
start arguing  from authority.  The premise that there are any particular 
positive goals has not been demonstrated.   It's just some 
randomwish-it-were-so thing they are throwing around -- it's not a hypothesis 
it is an assertion.At some point in their inquiry there exists the 
possibility that their goals can be falsified.   So lose the goals and follow 
the evidence.The voting booth is good place for this kind of activity.
   
Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: How brand-new words are spreading across America

[Marcus Daniels]

Useless anecdote:  I opened the fridge one day and noticed the CO2 regulator 
on the keg was broken.  I asked my office mate about it.  He said: Yeah, the 
regulator broke.  I asked: It just spontaneously broke all by itself?  He 
didn't respond.

And the keg _in the office_?  It just got there all by itself?  

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] unikernels?

[Marcus Daniels]

And don't  overlook the fine work done in the Northwest..

http://galois.com/project/halvm/

..and in fact going back some time..

http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ep ropella
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:32 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] unikernels?


Life in a Post-Container World and Why Linux Will Play a Diminished Role 
http://thenewstack.io/life-post-container-world/

Unikernels: Rise of the Virtual Library Operating System
http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2566628

Luckily, Marcus introduced me to ocaml a long time ago, otherwise I'd feel even 
more out of touch than I already do.

--
glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: unikernels?

[Marcus Daniels]

But this isn't just about virtual machines.  It's about using type-safe 
languages so that hardware protection mechanisms are simply not needed.By 
virtue of it compiling at all, it can be shown to be safe to run.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Parks, Raymond
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 1:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: unikernels?

And, like so many trends in computers, we return to the past.  This time, to VM 
and CMS.

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.govmailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.govmailto:rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.govmailto:dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)


On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:38 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:


And don't  overlook the fine work done in the Northwest..

http://galois.com/project/halvm/

..and in fact going back some time..

http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ep ropella
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:32 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] unikernels?


Life in a Post-Container World and Why Linux Will Play a Diminished Role 
http://thenewstack.io/life-post-container-world/

Unikernels: Rise of the Virtual Library Operating System
http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2566628

Luckily, Marcus introduced me to ocaml a long time ago, otherwise I'd feel even 
more out of touch than I already do.

--
glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: unikernels?

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:

o open-ended evolution (and/or evolution of evolution), broached at ECAL -- 
the answer I kept giving, that nobody really responded to, includes self-hosted 
languages (simple circularity) and cycles in hosting (L_0 hosts L_1 which then 
hosts L_0).

Let's say a device managing a SCSI disk drive.  A Unikernel based on a strongly 
typed language would ensure that illegal or poorly formed SCSI command blocks 
simply could not be formed.Whether or not a L_1 language hosts a L_0 with a 
similar virtual device doesn't matter, there's still no way to bypass the 
typing in the L_0 implementation.  In a language like C, it is trivial matter 
to bypass typing.  It's just best-effort by the developer.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] appropriate content for FRIAM

[Marcus Daniels]

Insisting on any one topic would be the intent of a reductionist.Now back 
to philosophy!

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 5:01 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] appropriate content for FRIAM

Glen, 

I was not trying to inhibit anyone.  I was trying to tease about the fact that 
no matter how interesting something is to one person, that same thing is likely 
to be a bore to someone else.  And therefore, there should be NO guidelines in 
friam, other than the politeness, kindness, and forbearance that have been 
shown me in abundance.   

Nick  

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 4:50 PM
To: Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] appropriate content for FRIAM


On 08/13/2015 10:19 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
 I apologize for this REPLY TO ALL error.  I was actually reaching out to Owen 
 about an old private argument concerning what was appropriate for FRIAM.  I 
 hope you all will forgive me.

Well, private discussions are one thing.  But, I would very much appreciate 
some guidelines on what was [in]appropriate content for the mailing list.  It's 
probably obvious that I have no social skills and, hence, no ability to infer 
what's [in]appropriate.  Being relatively free with the thread collapse and 
delete buttons, I can end up pretty biased toward the things that interest me, 
which runs the risk of crossing the [in]appropriateness boundary.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: unikernels?

[Marcus Daniels]

s/abuse/use/

For about the last 30 years or so, I've been dealing with various sorts of 
sysadmins who care more about control and ease of administration than they do 
about making sure the systems are flexible and powerful.For me, bare on the 
hardware unikernels would be about building the system around apps rather than 
the other way around.   But it is not just security concerns or technical 
limitations that prevent this from happening..
 

From: Friam friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of glen ep ropella 
g...@tempusdictum.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 5:56 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re:  unikernels?

Well, of course, I'm actually looking for the inverse problem: what is the 
minimum hole we need to see interesting abuse, e.g. whole new ecosystems of 
behavior.  It seems like strongly typed, lazy (not just non-strict) eval 
languages capable of higher order logic are the right platform for finding 
minimal holes of maximal interestingness.

On 08/11/2015 02:05 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 The usual problem that occurs in non-strict languages are thunk leaks.I 
 plan to plan to plan to plan ... to do something.. Delayed failure can 
 occur too, but for me it is much less common then, say, ad-hoc type handling 
 in a dynamically-typed language.

 I think it just comes down to the degree to which the developer articulates 
 the constraints on the context as types, and then whether the language has 
 the property of really enforcing those types.Also there's the problem of 
 what happens when the developer just can't get across what they want in the 
 types.  Either because they can't be bothered or because the type system 
 isn't versatile enough.

 I think these security issues come down to limitations in human attention.  
 Tools and languages can help with that, but obsessiveness is needed too.

--
glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847


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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: How brand-new words are spreading across America

[Marcus Daniels]

Another wrinkle in this is how the “businessman’s tragedy of the commons” gets 
reflected in the thinking of employees.  Employees, when faced with enduring 
inequality, may well object to progress, out of a sense it isn’t fair.
I find this really remarkable.  An employer that wants the employees poorer 
must be very amused indeed to see a backlash such as in the URL below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/a-company-copes-with-backlash-against-the-raise-that-roared.html

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 5:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: How brand-new words are 
spreading across America

So business people are anti-union not because unions interfere with the running 
of their own businesses, but because unions interfere with their ruining of 
other peoples businesses?

I think we could get a whole new freakonomics franchise out of this.

-- rec --

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 4:22 PM, David Eric Smith 
desm...@santafe.edumailto:desm...@santafe.edu wrote:
You know what I find curious about the various econ conversations around this 
topic?

What I am about to say is not any deep insight, and I have heard Hanauer say 
the same things in his TED talk (nearly verbatim to the article), but just this 
time, reading it led to the realization.

In the sense of where the agency lies, this is a simple non-cooperative game 
played by the owners of firms _against each other_.

Powerless labor is essentially a background fabric that responds mechanically 
to the strategic choices of those who have the bargaining power over terms of 
employment, in the society as we currently have it structured.

So essentially, as Hanauer says, every business wants its customers richer and 
its employees poorer.  That is: they want all _other_ employers to provide 
richer citizens who can be customers, while they then return less of that 
wealth to their own employees as members of the customer pool.

It can be framed as one of the simple standard public-goods games, in which a 
public resource (a non-desperate pool of people who both sell wage labor and 
buy products and services) is either contributed to, or not, by firms' 
wage-setting policies.  The strategy of public contribution is dominated under 
the non-cooperative equilibrium, so the businessman's tragedy of the commons 
has everybody trying to cheat and not pay labor, until the whole populace is 
decimated and there are no customers.  This is the descent into the Walmart 
effect on towns, though the way it plays out into a final locked-in ruined 
state is more complicated than this simple game has the structure to describe.

All this is obvious, and putting it into a game-theoretic frame doesn't really 
add anything to the substance of the argument, though for me it does state more 
transparently who the players are and makes the useful point that it is the 
firm owners competing with each other as adversaries that drive this dynamic.  
Firm owners don't, as a class, destroy the economy through low wages because 
they are colluding: rather, they are being coordinated by the bad version of 
Adam Smith's invisible hand as they jointly independently and competitively 
choose the same destructive use of their power in the labor market.  This is 
why the notion that firms will voluntarily raise wages once a few do, 
mentioned by opponents in Hanauer's essay, is false (and disingenuously so).  
Now, certainly, maintaining market power over wages by putting a fence around 
the labor pool is a collusive act, but it is carried out through different 
institutions (particularly, lobbying legislators etc.) and other levels than 
the competitive pricing one.  Thus, the game has a few layers with different 
structure that interact, but it wouldn't be all that hard to lay out which 
parts are which.

The thing that surprises me -- given how many statements of the obvious Complex 
Systems academics make lots of press putting into formalism -- is that I 
haven't seen anyone write this down in those terms.

Maybe everyone realizes it would be kind of silly, and that is why they don't 
bother to do it?  Would make sense, except that we see it done in so many other 
areas that are equally shallow and silly.

?

Eric



On Aug 6, 2015, at 6:24 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:



Nick Hanauer is clear that he is a multi-billionaire because Jeff Bezos called 
him back before another guy when Hanauer had some venture capital to invest.  
See:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.html#.VcJ-ElDnbqA

Frank

Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Phone
(505) 670-9918tel:%28505%29%20670-9918
On 08/05/2015 01:20 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote:
   At the risk of being unpopular on this group, I would point out that many 
gun-owners have made the argument that none of their guns have spontaneously 
fired.  

Re: [FRIAM] Pandoc

[Marcus Daniels]

You can feel good about using Pandoc.  It’s written in Haskell!

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 11:13 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Pandoc

Some of us have been using Atom text editor.  Its a bit crazy, built on Node.js 
desktop, HTML, CSS, JavaScript.

Recently Atom has grabbed the attention of folks writing papers:
https://discuss.atom.io/t/using-atom-for-academic-writing/19222
​.. integrating LaTeX etc into a markdown language called Pandoc
​​
http://pandoc.org/index.html

​Weird, and hopefully wonderful.

   -- Owen
  Song of the day: http://goo.gl/uCCxD2​


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Re: [FRIAM] Pandoc

[Marcus Daniels]

There are several general efforts along those lines, e.g.

https://github.com/faylang/fay/wiki
http://www.skybluetrades.net/blog/posts/2012/11/13/fay-ring-oscillator/index.html

Anyway, while I think source to source tricks are neat, eventually having a GHC 
WebAssembly target would be better.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pandoc

Whoa! And compiled to JavaScript (or maybe LLVM-Emscripten-asm.js)?

On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Marcus Daniels 
mar...@snoutfarm.commailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote:
You can feel good about using Pandoc.  It’s written in Haskell!

From: Friam 
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.commailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf 
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 11:13 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Pandoc

Some of us have been using Atom text editor.  Its a bit crazy, built on Node.js 
desktop, HTML, CSS, JavaScript.

Recently Atom has grabbed the attention of folks writing papers:
https://discuss.atom.io/t/using-atom-for-academic-writing/19222
​.. integrating LaTeX etc into a markdown language called Pandoc
​​
http://pandoc.org/index.html

​Weird, and hopefully wonderful.

   -- Owen
  Song of the day: http://goo.gl/uCCxD2​



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Re: [FRIAM] Interesting Link

[Marcus Daniels]

Gary writes:

“As part of the legislation to introduce its own digital currency, it also made 
it illegal to use any other digital currency, e.g. Bitcoin.”

An obvious motive would be population control, and secondarily as a new 
surveillance mechanism.   Displacing cash with digital currency could be a 
tactic to keep closer tabs on how money is used.  What explanation do they give?

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Interesting Link

[Marcus Daniels]

Eric writes:

Wow, thanks for all that!

“4. Back to mechanism:  If the above are correct, then any sub-system of the 
economy that depends on a bitcoin-like digital currency will be subject to the 
stresses that come from an inflexible-supply money such as gold, and those will 
need to be addressed somehow. “

Of course, Bitcoin is the biggest, but still just one of many existing or 
possible digital currencies (some of them having the properties of gold).   
Others, like NXT coin, reward holding the currency rather reward mining it.   
If creating these currencies means little more than creating a protocol and 
supporting code, and building a community around it, then different systems of 
governance can be built around the rules, including the ability to have it be a 
flexible money supply.In principle, trans-national economies could emerge, 
and they could gain more momentum than the official currencies of smaller 
nations.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

“I ask because it'd seem like a business wouldn't want to use something where 
they couldn't see the code (for instance).”

Because employers and employees are different people, and the individuals that 
would want to see the code details (and could interpret and act on them) tend 
to be employees (i.e. specialists in organization), it is common for those 
employees or their superiors to look at the issue in terms of risk reduction.   
 Risk can be reduced by buying/licensing a product with a support agreement or 
buying insurance of some sort.  There’s a way to pass the buck.   There are 
situations in which this is terrible behavior, like when lives could be a risk 
if a failure occurs.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

“ BTW, the difference is that I've rarely actively looked for something new - 
it always seems to land in my lap.”

Sometimes I think circles such as yours and the people Glen is talking about 
just must be kept apart from one another, if they don’t avoid each other 
naturally.That’s about as close I get to advocating community for 
community’s sake.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

Interesting vs. boring is orthogonal.  So, there's interesting-hard and 
boring-hard.  I'll accept money for either type of work, though I much prefer 
interesting-hard ... obviously.

How about engaging, imaginative, educational, or surprising work vs. detail 
work.   Doing detail work may be delayed gratification or it can no purpose 
other than to respond to extrinsic motivation.Remove the extrinsic 
motivation (money), and it is boring and depressing.  

Ok, if one is tasked with making an app to print checks, it could be 
educational to learn how to put widgets on a screen or to do page layout.  What 
that discovery process is over, either another naïve person is needed or 
extrinsic motivation.

Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

I was taking a broader swipe at how much of society and the economy is setup to 
pigeonhole people into being one thing.   Find a role, stick with it, don't 
shoot too high or too low.   Stability and identity, as an aim in itself.
The need for community is to create a platform for parting with conservative 
values to explore other values, values a community can just invent. 
Unfortunately, the people that seek out these communities can become burdens on 
the community's mission if they seek comfort in the group rather than add 
momentum to its purpose.No, I don't care about the people who know how to 
do things finding common ground with corporate drones.It's not about good 
and evil or safety and danger.It's about the purposeless and ordinary 
draining the will and attention of the unique and interesting.Universities, 
labs, DIY biology groups at least protect that to some extent but each have 
their pluses and minuses.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 6:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q


I'd (probably wrongly) interpreted Marcus' comment to mean something about 
keeping the corporate drones (who can't imagine doing work for anything other 
than incentive) away from people who have the knowledge to create weapons of 
mass destruction, particularly biological weapons ... hence, the article about 
DIYBio myths.  It was a little bit of agreement with a little bit of 
disagreement combined.


BTW-FWIW, since we're talking about motivation vs. incentive, I just saw this 
in my inbox:

   The Ethics of Whistleblowing with Edward Snowden
   http://www.philosophytalk.org/shows/ethics-whistleblowing-edward-snowden

 John: A lot of people see you as a hero.  But others, intelligent ones too, 
 have called you a narcissistic traitor ... How do you see yourself at this 
 point?

 Snowden: I don't think about myself.  I don't think about how I'm going to be 
 perceived, because it's not about me.  It's about us.

This is the type of thing that makes me think Snowden is, at least, 
disingenuous, if not worse.  He's clearly not afflicted with any of the major 
psych disorders that prevent him from reflective thought.  Hence, he _does_ 
think about himself and how he'll be perceived.  If he'd just answer the damned 
question honestly ... like Hell yeah, I think about myself and how I'm 
perceived!  I think about how my fellow US citizens view me.  I think about 
how/whether they want to know the information I leaked, whether a jury of my 
peers would convict me if presented with the evidence ...  Etc.  If he'd 
answer that way, I might start to trust him.  Instead he answers with this 
pseudo-altrustic nonsense, public-relations/politician-speak.  Ugh.



On 07/14/2015 04:43 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote:
 So, I'm not getting the relevance of the DIYBio movement to Marcus' comment.  
 Are you suggesting that it is an example of community for community's sake?

 On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:15 PM, glen wrote:

 On 07/14/2015 02:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 Sometimes I think circles such as yours and the people Glen is talking 
 about just must be kept apart from one another, if they don’t avoid each 
 other naturally.That’s about as close I get to advocating community for 
 community’s sake.

 http://phys.org/news/2013-11-first-ever-survey-do-it-yourself-biology
 -myths.html


--
⇔ glen

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

The last one, in particular, seems to imply that those who are most likely to 
think a community really has a mission (as opposed to the illusion of a 
mission) are the most extreme of the bunch, the hard-liners, the obnoxious 
ones.  

To tie this back to the original question, I was thinking of actual open source 
projects.   It is common when a group of people form to build a software 
package that the concept for what the capability is, is reasonably clear to the 
founding members.  Make a better FOO.   Then, some other people come along and 
don't understand that mission or try to advocate a different mission, like 
another BAR mission.   The relevance of their input can be higher if they are 
productive people, but often they are not, and they are just in the way and 
taking up space, participating in advocacy of dubious value, etc.It is 
different from a commercial enterprise in so far as make a better FOO is 
measured some way other than by ROI in money.  Better can mean technical 
properties that the group understands and see worth pursuing for its own sake.  

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:

But, again, you're being very binary.  Practically, each member will be a 
member in part because they're aligned ideologically, in part because they 
contribute to the mission, and in part for promotional/egotistical reasons.  
Those sets aren't disjoint, regardless of what the participants think about 
themselves.

Sure, ideological and technical preferences and selfish motivators can be 
correlated and causality can be hard to pin down.   I'm claiming in my case low 
correlation, but not no correlation.   

Suppose individual preferences are represented by universal bit strings.   The 
bit strings can encode floating point numbers or yes/no, or triples to say 
yes/no/don't care, or programs or whatever.Then there are other bit strings 
representing something global like Hackage, or the Library of Congress, a 
software company's intellectual property, or what's on Food Network.Couple 
all the individual preferences to the global bit strings as an Ising system 
with random weights. 

A clever marketing department (or a politician) figures out what bits matter 
and directs resources to select/change their bits to change frustration in the 
system to make their bits more crucial -- to be towards the center of the 
network.They can only have so many bits, so they have to choose the right 
ones.User-facing tools are an instance of those bits that happen to be 
strongly correlated to a lot of other individuals' bits.   It's arbitrary what 
the semantics are for the bits.   It's just history and a popularity contest.   
But investment will occur in controlling the state of an evolving set of owned 
bits so as to maximize influence the evolution of other bits.   Meanwhile, 
preference bits of an individual have broader connectivity to other preferences 
(and their own) and global state bits.  Different communities would be seen 
from the user-facing software vendor as isolated graphs given some minimum 
cutoff for what is a connection, and their cutoff would be relatively h
 igh compared to a free software developer.

My claim is that free software developers, and GPL developers in particular, 
have a preference for exploring this broader type of connectivity, and are 
especially interested in the frustration of the interconnections amongst the 
global bits than in the relationship between individual preference bits or the 
relationship between the individual and global bits.  Any slice or subset of 
bits might not be interesting by itself, but the concept of growing and 
compressing the totality of global bits is a core value.

 If FOO and BAR represent different kinds of strong technical preferences then 
 that could explain why cooperation around multi-aspect software is harder.   
 There's too much to fight about.   But then consider loose cooperative 
 efforts like Hackage, or CTAN, CPAN, CRAN, etc.  each representing millions 
 of lines of code.  To say these aren't multi-aspect is absurd.   They are 
 very, very high dimensional, interdependent, and open-ended.

Yes, but it would be a stretch to think of things like CPAN as user-facing 
tools.  They are more middle-ware or back-end.  At best, you can only think of 
the front-end script that accesses the databases as the front-end part.  And 
that's certainly not multi-aspect.  That /usr/bin/cpan script has a very narrow 
focus in handling the packages.

I don't mean the script or the tool to manage the collection, I mean the 
collection.

These collective efforts are more like federations than applications.  And 
federations are methodological approaches to handling large sets of opinionated 
members ... like the EU or the US.  They are explicitly _designed_ to handle 
the extremists and their _splat_ of opinions on everything under the sun, 
because they allow even the extremists a way to focus in on the minimal 
agreement required to cooperate.

This goes back to the Cathedral vs. the Bazaar.  Large commercial organizations 
aren't automatically cathedrals just because they assert a mission.   A plan 
needs to be identified and socialized over and over.  That negotiation acts 
more like a Bazaar -- figuring who can do what, who they can work with, and how 
to reward and control them.   A small organization of like-minded people can 
take the cathedral approach straight away but will be limited by available 
manpower.  (Assuming there is in fact a distinction between conceptual work and 
detail work at all.)

Large hierarchical organizations of the kind that make most user-facing 
software have some small group of people making executive decisions.   They are 
just people though and not _that_ much better than the people on the leaves of 
the tree.  So they cannot take on fundamentally _harder_ problems, they can 
only keep throwing human resources at it, provided they can keep their story 
straight about what problem they are solving.   A hard problem is one that 
takes more intelligence to solve and that will be limited 

Re: [FRIAM] a week on just linux...

[Marcus Daniels]

Server procedures written in R would be pretty neat trick for data miners..

http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2015/05/r-in-sql-server.html

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 4:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] a week on just linux...

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Frank Wimberly 
wimber...@gmail.commailto:wimber...@gmail.com wrote:

Speaking of Windows, a button has recently appeared on my Windows 7 machine 
which appears to download and install Windows 10.  Any recommendations?
Recommendations for what? Whether you should push the button? How to get it to 
go away? I recommend not having to deal with Microsoft anymore (or at least as 
little as possible), but each person makes their own way through this stuff, 
more or less.
-Arlo James Barnes

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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

But the point I was trying to make with those 3 articles still stands: that 
people who join communities for community's sake are not necessarily only drags 
on, disrupters of the system.  They provide something like a dampening baffle 
that traps and eliminates the noise of the extremists, the purposeful 
missionaries.  In fact, without _enough_ of that sort of middling or 
joiner, a project is more at risk when/if extremists fail to cohere.  And I 
think this is true in open source projects as well as proprietary ones.

Right, but from the missionary's point of view, the truth is out there, and if 
one project dies another will fill its place..  It is the truth that matters.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] How Text Editing is like Riding a Bike, was: speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve writes:

Really, text editing is just like riding a bike... you don't forget what that 
first real bike feels like, and it IS fun to wipe the dust off of it and 
cruise down the boardwalk ogling the young and the reckless with their toned 
tans, but from one old fart to the rest of you, don't forget the ape-hangers, 
the gel seat, and the three speed hub. 

I still have the motors skills for ed and sometimes still use it when an 
internet connection is slow.   The motor skills amount to using regular 
expression ranges instead of scrolling around, and making changes with what 
amount to using tiny context dependent programs to make the edits.   It does 
require one be very facile with tagged regular expressions.It's not a crazy 
way to program, actually.  If one can't formulate the code change they want to 
make with code, it may well not even make sense.   And programs are just 
grammar constrained graphs, after all.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] 'Playing' Versioned Source Repositories

[Marcus Daniels]

Magit for Emacs should come close to this.   It can control git to apply patch 
sets, e.g. in time order.   Of course, most developers will commit working code 
changes, not all the details of their edits.   The deltas will be  batch edits, 
not keystroke by keystroke, or line by line.   But it will highlight the diffs 
in context.

http://magit.vc/screenshotshttp://magit.vc/screenshots/
Magit! A Git Porcelain inside Emacs
Magit is an Emacs interace to it Git
Read more...http://magit.vc/screenshots/


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Re: [FRIAM] hmmm we'll see

[Marcus Daniels]

The Star Trek I remember involved powerful adversaries such as Romulans, Borg, 
and Klingons.   It was hardly everything worked out.   There were still the 
other guys, just that they were sufficiently alien to be defined away as a part 
of the day-to-day economy.   Sometimes it wasn't clear who the haves and the 
have-nots were or ought to be, so there were phasers and various cleverness for 
resolving that.   Large primary economies hosting second order economies that 
had perhaps more utopian properties -- but in the end it comes down to 
protecting the big primary economies (the federation) with the phasers.   
Speaking of Klingons,

http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2015/07/welsh-government-uses-klingon-to-respond-to-serious-ufo-questions
 
http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2015/07/welsh-government-uses-klingon-to-respond-to-serious-ufo-questions/

From: Friam friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of Gillian Densmore 
gil.densm...@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 7:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; wedt...@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] hmmm we'll see

found this on slashdot:

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/a-star-trek-future-might-be-closer-than-we-think/?_r=0

basicly it's a write up about a book arguing that a system that promotes 
peekpotential may well be the way to turn the US economic woes around.

Specifically it argues for items, barter, and treknomics (what some Buhdists 
and Jedi do) is the only way to save the US economy

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Applets · NetLogo/NetLogo Wiki

[Marcus Daniels]

“Having said that well I for one can only speculate why java has/had a history 
of not caching on”

Wot?

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Btw, Web Assembly is just mimicking what .NET (and Mono) have been able to do 
for 10 years.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 7:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Applets · NetLogo/NetLogo Wiki
. Though I am amused how the web has managed to go full circle.
Why do I say that, it seems as if the goal to applets and node is simillar to: 
DHTML
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_HTML

DHTML, was ahead it's time because you could make pages yes even those, the 
ones that beeped-to what became known as a blog.

They also seem to want to get things running in the browser like MS bugy gem's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActiveX

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework




On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Gillian Densmore 
gil.densm...@gmail.commailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com wrote:
One could say:
thise.Day(Pine)
  print.out(arg YANFL);

but the joke might not compile.

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Parks, Raymond 
rcpa...@sandia.govmailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov wrote:
In my case, I was asked to help the Comptrollers (Air Force speak for 
accountants) to optimize the code because they were using an IBM emulator on a 
Honeywell 6800 and their APL programs were bogging down the entire system.
Oh, what tangled web we create, when first we try to emulate - or, perhaps, 
there was another fine mess they got me into.

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024tel:505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359tel:505-238-9359  P: 
505-951-6084tel:505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.govmailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.govmailto:rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.govmailto:dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)


On Jul 13, 2015, at 4:33 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:


I programmed in APL while at Xerox in the 70's.  Although dangerous it was 
really fast to program in, especially as a domain specific language, so to 
speak.  It got so that if you couldn't do a one-liner for anything you wanted 
to do, you'd be disappointed!

Interestingly enough, it was the Finance dept of Xerox that first started using 
it, and then it leaked into the labs where it went viral.

SmallTalk was sorta the same, really great but hard to deploy initially, but 
really loved in the labs.

   -- Owen

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Parks, Raymond 
rcpa...@sandia.govmailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov wrote:
It's analagous to pets - you raise them (sometimes) from bottle-feeding and 
they live to old age - and they die long before you are ready.  Sure, there are 
the occasional turtles and parrots that outlive their owners - COBOL has long 
outlived Grace Hopper - but most computer languages come and go within their 
authors and certainly users professional lifetimes.  Sometimes you babysit 
somebody else's pet while they're on vacation or something - the other thread 
on the cube comic points this out - only a few of us have ever worked with 
SNOBOL (and we probably didn't like it that much).  I started with Algol, moved 
on to COBOL, assembled various flavours,  did some Fortran (various flavours), 
then CMS II (a regression), C, C++, Java (swore at Grady), and then a 
succession of scripting languages (none of which have stuck).  My strangest 
language experience was A Programming Language (APL) - oh the damage one can do 
in almost no code.

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024tel:505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359tel:505-238-9359  P: 
505-951-6084tel:505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.govmailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.govmailto:rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.govmailto:dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)


On Jul 11, 2015, at 8:41 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

This is sorta sad:
​​
https://github.com/NetLogo/NetLogo/wiki/Applets
​Applets: They're dead Jim.

Sad mainly from a history standpoint: Java built a really ​fascinating cross 
platform, VM based, language  libraries.

JS is now the current winner. But then, there's Web Assembly which will provide 
a path for all languages to replace JS in the browser and in Node.js.

Sigh.

   -- Owen


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Re: [FRIAM] speculative Q

[Marcus Daniels]

On that same front, Gary's right about that last 20%.  But user-facing 
software has a much harder last 20% than what happens behind the scenes 
_because_ those occult tools are allowed to be very focused, tight, and single 
purpose, whereas user-facing tools have to handle, ameliorate, shunt, faciliate 
the myriad things a general intelligence can/will do.  User facing tools have 
to deal with morons and geniuses, whereas internal tools can get away with 
well-defined contracts.

Although there is open source software for office and accounting, I can't 
imagine wanting to spend my free time on such a thing.It is just boring and 
depressing to think about.I don't think it has anything to do with it being 
hard.   Hard is New Horizons..   Meanwhile, as Gary points out, the commercial 
World of Boring circles the wagons around music streaming and participation in 
mobile app markets, banking, and other such things so that they can control 
prices.The software is coupled to the protocols and one would have to 
buy-in (with $$$) to see how the pieces fit together and make free 
alternatives.  What a hassle.
 
Marcus


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[FRIAM] surprised no one mentioned this

[Marcus Daniels]

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151027/ncomms9661/full/ncomms9661.html

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Re: [FRIAM] The death of Joe Traub

[Marcus Daniels]

http://www.dwavesys.com/press-releases/los-alamos-national-laboratory-orders-1000-qubit-d-wave-2x-quantum-computer

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Pamela McCorduck
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 11:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] The death of Joe Traub

As many of you know, my dear, dear Joe died on Monday morning, August 24.

A memorial service will be held at 10:00 a.m. on Friday, September 4, at the 
United Church of Santa Fe, at the corner of Arroyo Chamiso and St. Michael's. 
You are warmly invited to attend.

Here is his New York Times obituary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/science/joseph-traub-who-helped-bring-computer-science-to-universities-dies-at-83.html?_r=0



Pamela

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Re: [FRIAM] FW: Meat

[Marcus Daniels]

Surely someone has collected the digital elevation models (DEM) to find 
potential growth areas near areas that would be impacted by such a water rise?  
 You know, as investment opportunities.  (Or to systematically short-sell 
them.)  New Orleans lost half their population after Katrina..


From: Friam  on behalf of Roger Critchlow 

Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 6:12 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Meat

Sorry, misquoted the abstract in a particularly alarming way by paraphrasing 
journalistic sources: 60 years of continuing destabilization of the Amundsen 
Basin, as is currently being observed, leads to a subsequent collapse of the 
West Antarctic Ice Sheet and an eventual 3m sea rise.

-- rec --

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Roger Critchlow 
> wrote:
speaking of crash and burn, you all caught the PNAS early release today, 
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/10/28/1512482112.abstract?sid=6a257104-4e5a-45e0-ad64-03d3b03c8f43,
 anticipating 3m sea rise in the next 60 years, and no sign of anything to be 
done at this point?

-- rec --


On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:24 PM, glen 
> wrote:

At first, I struggled to find something to argue with.  But I finally found it!

On 11/02/2015 02:33 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
Even though I was trained as a Scientist (especially though?) I find it 
impossible to do enough research on any "popular" topic to even pretend to 
understand the issue and data well enough to make a "scientific decision".  I 
think those who "pretend" to do so are rarely being honest.   As those here who 
have actually *done* science, know, it is far from trivial to really track down 
all the data and reproduce all of the experiments, etc. to begin to "prove 
anything" to oneself.

But one can't actually *do* science.  Science is a collective thing, perhaps 
even an entraining thing.  While there are plenty who admit that it's mostly a 
behavior, the requirements for repetition and prediction preclude any 
individual from *doing* science.  At best, we can only *participate*.  We can't 
_do_ it.  We can only _be_ it.

So, while I agree with your arching conclusion (that one -- you -- does not 
make "scientific decisions"), I disagree that it's because one hasn't done 
enough research.  I can do so _without_ agreeing with the reasoning by which 
you reached your conclusion.  It's because "scientific decisions" is a 
contradiction in terms.  Decisions are intra-individual, cognitive things, 
whereas science is an inter-individual collective thing.

This bears directly on Nick's topic, I think ... the ability to disagree with 
reasoning but agree with conclusions.

Beyond that, I try to operate on as "fundamental" of principles as possible.  
Since you used the topic of diet and the eating of meat as an example, I will 
admit to having chosen to be a vegetarian from age 15-32 when I was essentially 
"boycotting" the meat *industry* which I saw as an exploitative and abusive 
industry. I currently follow the general guidelines of "paleo" living... 
entrusting my genetic heritage to define "what is best for me". With that in 
mind, I suspect that not only is meat important to my diet, it is probably also 
important for it to come to me infrequently and in somewhat binging 
quantities... a good eating strategy *might* be a big juicy steak or three once 
every couple of weeks and a LOT of green and tuberous vegetables.   I *do* 
respond to the more complex and well researched ideas that are based in the 
indigenous diets of various cultures (some eat a LOT Of animal protein/fat 
while others eat almost none).

This likely means you responded to Owen's and Nick's form follows function 
arguments, too, right?  Or do you allow for layers of removal between form and 
function?


To balance this, however, I believe that even if/as we crash and burn in our 
own greenhouse gas-heating, we will almost surely survive the consequences, 
albeit after a huge period of adjustment.

I find this belief the most interesting.  Apophenically, it seems techies tend 
to think this way.  They're also the most likely to think we can invent our way 
out of various calamaties.  They tend to be more tolerant of the ill-effects of 
any given technology (or technique).  Etc.  But I see a similar aspect with 
non-techie yet methodical people... people who can cook, for example, seem to 
be able to come up with good meals despite bare cabinets and fridge contents.  
People who can paint (or have other visual imagination) seem to see things 
others don't.  Etc.

So, from that, I infer that one's generalized ability to solve problems 
(generalized from one or more domains in which they are plastic/resourceful) 
gives them the optimism that they will find solutions, even in the face of 
uncertainty and a lack of reliable data.

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Heck Yes Markdown

[Marcus Daniels]

Hmm, a browser can support different MIME  types, this is just another 
one.
I mean, one wouldn’t convert JPEG to HTML.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:27 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group ; Wedtech 
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: Heck Yes Markdown

Speaking of static sites & markdown, this is nuts & fun!
​​
http://heckyesmarkdown.com/

​   -- Owen​


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Static Site Generator

[Marcus Daniels]

If you like LaTeX  (I can't imagine), you shouldn't stand for converting to 
HTML!

http://manuels.github.io/texlive.js/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Static Site Generator

Interesting. Obviously you didn't use latex2html for this. Did you use latexml?

I've used latexml as part of a kindle conversion process that goes via epub.

Cheers

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:04:13AM +, Parks, Raymond wrote:
> Our web-site was done with LaTeX - http://idart.sandia.gov/
> 
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> 

-- 


Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Static Site Generator

[Marcus Daniels]

I was thinking use a lower-level interface to the screen bitmap in the browser 
such that it would render directly.
In other words, don’t convert, make LaTeX a first-class MIME Content-Type.

This<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Style_Semantics_and_Specification_Language>
 was a nice design.  A statically typed version would have been even better.
XSL was the right idea, but a strange execution.  Should have just used a 
functional programming language, like 
this<http://hackage.haskell.org/package/HaXml>.
Building a good set of multi-target (page) flow objects is an enormous job, 
like making a PDF implementation or a XML/HTML browser engine.

One could always wrap LaTeX in a statically typed language to make it better 
behaved, e.g. HaTeX.  Which is about how I 
feel about LaTeX.  ☺

Marcus
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 10:22 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Static Site Generator


Interesting, but why not build the site in PDF (possibly with alternative 
versions for desktops and mobiles)?

Also, it didn’t work for me:

kpathsea: Running mktexpk --mfmode / --bdpi 72 --mag 1+0/72 --dpi 72 cmr6

(see the transcript file for additional information)

kpathsea: pipe(): Function not implemented

kpathsea: Appending font creation commands to missfont.log.)

—Barry

On 19 Oct 2015, at 19:25, Marcus Daniels wrote:

If you like LaTeX (I can't imagine), you shouldn't stand for converting to HTML!

http://manuels.github.io/texlive.js/

-Original Message-
From: Friam 
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf 
Of Russell Standish
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 6:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Static Site Generator

Interesting. Obviously you didn't use latex2html for this. Did you use latexml?

I've used latexml as part of a kindle conversion process that goes via epub.

Cheers

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:04:13AM +, Parks, Raymond wrote:

Our web-site was done with LaTeX - http://idart.sandia.gov/

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov<mailto:rcpa...@sandia.gov>
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov<mailto:rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov> (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov<mailto:dopa...@doe.ic.gov> (send NIPR reminder)

--



Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics 
hpco...@hpcoders.com.au<mailto:hpco...@hpcoders.com.au>

University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: [FRIAM] Static Site Generator

[Marcus Daniels]

“I have decided to narrow it down to node+javascript, of which there are 
plenty.”

https://github.com/IonicaBizau/node-cobol/blob/master/README.md

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Re: [FRIAM] Static Site Generator

[Marcus Daniels]

I liked this quote:

“In 1989, he declined joining the Mosaic browser team with his preference for 
knowledge/wisdom creation over distributing information ... a problem he says 
is still not solved by today's internet.”

I remember seeing Mosaic and HTML and thinking exactly the same thing back then.
So much wasted energy making pretty pages…

Marcus


From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 5:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Static Site Generator

And thread topic Integrity Field  Deterioration initiated.

According to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_web_browser

Text based web browsers  were around in some form since the 80's, (for example)


 and most importantly  it was a razzing but I suspect you know that. ^_^ or 
hope you do.


I'm rarely ahead of my time. I have however been noted to be ahead of my garlic.


On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Russell Standish 
> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:39:14AM -0600, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> YES, Well good ol'fation HTML with CSS has worked since the lasted from 70s
> to present.
> With Linx.

Wow - you were WAY ahead of your time! Given that HTML and the web
wasn't invented until about 1990, and Linus started writing his kernel
about the same time.



--


Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  
hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: [FRIAM] My charity is more effective than your charity!

[Marcus Daniels]

We went to dinner at a friend's place on the 4th.  I explained how happy my 
oncologist and my research nurse were that a few of my periaortic lymph nodes 
had shrunk by a miniscule amount between the last scan (6 months ago) and this 
latest one.  And I (again) floated my skepticism, which is based on the fact 
that they only measured in 2 dimensions ... yet my thorax is a 3D object.  And, 
thank the gods, I've gained all the weight I lost during my chemo.  So, it 
seems completely reasonable that a 2D projection of a 3D object may not take 
into account any rotation or compression due to, e.g. an increase in visceral 
fat.

In observing a few neurologists, it doesn't seem common yet to do automated 3D 
reconstructions or  isolate spatial anomalies with boundary inference 
techniques.   They just step through the slices.  Or in your case, one of them. 
I guess they get used to doing it one way, develop protocols around it, and 
they tend to stick around a long time.  

I think your thorax is at least a 4D object!   (Enter a dozen e-mails on what 
an object really is or is not..)

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] My charity is more effective than your charity!

[Marcus Daniels]

I use the OsiriX Lite version, which is free.   The MIALite plugin was also 
free. This was on a Haswell MacBook Pro running  Yosemite.   I didn't have the 
presence of mind to get the full body scan of my dog when the opportunity 
arose.   Maybe for that I would have needed the 64 bit version (and pay for 
it).   But for 3 Tesla brain scans the 32 bit version is sufficient.Does 
volumetric rendering without any plugins.And sufficiently well I can 
recognize the face!

The segmentation / region growing can identify different compartments (at least 
of the brain), so perhaps with some parameter sweeps on starting positions and 
thresholds, one could create rooms and passageways.   I would think major 
organs would be easier to isolate, but I don't have that data.   What could be 
more satisfying that shooting-up unwelcome cellular activity?

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ep ropella
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 8:40 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] My charity is more effective than your charity!

On 07/07/2015 07:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 OsiriX is good for MRIs (DICOM files).   MIALite is a segmentation plugin for 
 it that works.   Some of the OsiriX plugins have bitrot and crash the 
 browser.  Give your GPU  something [cough] useful to do other than [cough] 
 gaming.Don't know about segment tracking over time.   Might have to write 
 that.. 

Very cool.  $700 is pretty stiff.  It's not clear whether the plugin will work 
with the osirix free version.  I have been using ginkgo cad, the free version 
of which works pretty well.

On 07/07/2015 07:43 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
 I think you should *build* a video game based on your thorax... or a 
 projection of it's 4D-ness...  and uses Dr. Seuss's Lorax as a theme for 
 the narrative!

I'm just starting to dip my toes into 3D modeling (for another project).  I 
wonder how difficult it would be to create a 3D world modeled off the DICOM 
images?  It'd be kinda cool running a little avatar around over the kidneys and 
through the ribs, to grandmother's goiter we go!

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com


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Re: [FRIAM] My charity is more effective than your charity!

[Marcus Daniels]

I want to warn you all (speaking of 3d modeling) that I have been for years 
(as Steve G. will testify)  trying to get somebody to do 3D visualizations of 
the interaction of air masses, particularly in the region around and just east 
of the Sangres, where cold dry Canadian air masses slosh down the front range 
to be overlapped by warm moist air masses from the Gulf and hot dry air masses 
from the desert SW.  It is here that the atmospheric layers are often generated 
that are the conditions for severe weather further east.
The need is great for this visualization because many people who ought to know 
better are confused about this layering.  I think I might even know of some 
people at NOAA who would help.  Unfortunately, I have nothing to offer in 
return but my love and the promise of the enduring gratitude of TV weather 
people all over the Midwest who don't seem to understand the concept of a 
conditionally unstable atmosphere.  

NOAA folks might have access to supercomputers, and appropriate codes, but if 
not there's..

http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/research/viewSubmitAProposal.do

Special consideration will be given to proposals addressing climate change, 
such as:

Climate and meteorology: climate modeling, severe weather warning
Climate change adaptation: sea level modeling, improving crop or livestock 
yields and resilience, watershed modeling
Climate change mitigation: renewable energy modeling, renewable energy 
materials research

Also there are experts in the area..

http://climatemodeling.science.energy.gov/presentations


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Re: [FRIAM] My charity is more effective than your charity!

[Marcus Daniels]

OsiriX is good for MRIs (DICOM files).   MIALite is a segmentation plugin for 
it that works.   Some of the OsiriX plugins have bitrot and crash the browser.  
Give your GPU  something [cough] useful to do other than [cough] gaming.
Don't know about segment tracking over time.   Might have to write that.. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 4:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] My charity is more effective than your charity!

On 07/07/2015 02:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 I think your thorax is at least a 4D object!

Since I get copies of all the images on CD, I've thought about doing a 3D 
animation.  It might be a bit difficult to interpolate between scans.  But 
surely there are established methods for doing it.  I just need to quit playing 
video games long enough to do the work.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] github pages...

[Marcus Daniels]

Bullet Physics is a nice way to represent an environment and to represent the 
agents.   Physical interaction between agents and/or static objects is directly 
reported.   Just compile with emscripten if you want it in a web browser..

https://github.com/kripken/ammo.js


From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 7:11 PM
To: Brent Auble; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Cc: wedt...@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] github pages...

Brent: way WAY astute observations and info, thanks 10^6!

How's this for an idea: follow Ed's Mooc.  No need to do the homework etc, just 
to get informed as to webgl's core capabilities.  It's just started and the 
videos are there for the watching and a standard vocabulary. The GPU is a 
standard worth knowing.

Then we can (a group of us here interested in the topic .. hopefully Pietro who 
has a LOT of ABM experience .. as does a lot of Italy) put together some ideas 
for 3D ABM.

Certainly Uri and Seth were interested in it, but didn't have time to do the 
research.  Thus they use 2.5 D pop-out for standard NetLogo .. way nice .. 
and agree that beyond their cube patches, they hadn't time for enough 
research into the matter.

ABM is basically data all the way down with dynamic interaction within the 
data.  3D fits into this, I think.

Maybe we should just think of models that could use 3D? RedFish has a few 
fascinating ideas in the works like point-clouds as computation.

Thanks again.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Brent Auble 
br...@auble.netmailto:br...@auble.net wrote:
Hi Owen, we've done some work using Processing to do 3D visualization in 
NetLogo -- both by opening an Processing window from a running NetLogo model 
and by running NetLogo headless from a Processing program (and doing real-time 
visualization of the running model).  Of course, NetLogo uses Processing for 
some of its built-in 3D visualization, but the version is somewhat old and I 
don't think Uri et al have put much effort into the 3D side of things recently, 
so our approach gives a bit more flexibility.  I'm happy to share the paper we 
put together on it if you or anyone else is interested.

The question of what a 3D ABM is actually useful for is surprisingly more 
challenging.  We put together a simple dynamic network model and used the 3D to 
visualize the connections between and movement of the nodes from one state to 
another (of 3 possible states), so we had something like a sandwich of dots 
with lines that we could rotate around and zoom in on.  It was something that 
made it a bit easier to understand what was going on in the model and between 
the nodes -- more a reporting mechanism than an inherent part of the model.  
Well, that, plus it looked cooler.

Using 3D as an inherent part of the model's behavior is another thing entirely. 
 In that case, the model would require the physical 3 dimensional location of 
each agent (and the environment) to be critical to the behavior of the agents 
-- and something that couldn't be easily represented in 2D with the 3rd 
dimension handled separately.  We started to look at using animation software, 
such as Maya, to do the modeling, but didn't make much progress before our 
animator moved on.  Maya or 3DS Max allow for Python programming, but it isn't 
exactly ideal for ABM work.

Brent


From: Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.netmailto:o...@backspaces.net
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
friam@redfish.commailto:friam@redfish.com
Cc: wedt...@redfish.commailto:wedt...@redfish.com 
wedt...@redfish.commailto:wedt...@redfish.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2015 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] github pages...

Hi Pietro, great to hear from you. Lets try to get together next time I travel 
to Italy. I generally stay in Camerano, near Ancona, but often spend time in 
Venice with Fabio or lately in Padova .. so we'd not be that far apart via 
train.

SLAPP is quite nice. I wonder if you would be interested in a NetLogo inspired 
JavaScript ABM framework: http://agentscript.orghttp://agentscript.org/. I 
need help thinking about its future.

I'm taking a break from it for a while, diving into a webgl mooc given by Ed 
Angel based on material from the latest edition, 7, of his Interactive Computer 
Graphics text .. all using webgl.

Here's the url of the mooc if you'd like to follow along:
https://www.coursera.org/course/webgl

A major goal for a few of us is how to move ABM to 3D. We spoke with Uri and 
Seth at NetLogo and they hadn't enough time to really research how to best use 
3D.

Great to hear from you.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Pietro Terna 
pietro.te...@unito.itmailto:pietro.te...@unito.it wrote:

Dear all,

sometimes I reappear ...

My experience is very positive, with https://github.com/terna/SLAPP and 
GitHum program in my Mac.

Best, Pietro
Il 08/07/15 18:55, 

Re: [FRIAM] Mike Agar in SF NewMexican

[Marcus Daniels]

Mike Agar wrote:

“The water news tells me that adaptive technologies for aquifer recharge and 
wastewater recycling are a growth industry, the technology improving by leaps 
and bounds and now being used in several places.”

Eldorado is less than 4000 
households, isn’t it?

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 10:50 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group ; Wedtech 
Subject: [FRIAM] Mike Agar in SF NewMexican

Mike has a nice article in the news paper:
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/my_view/reader-view-my-infrastructure-runneth-over/article_8a3e3301-4998-50c1-a67b-b61006756c9c.html

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Re: [FRIAM] What is WebAssembly? The Dawn of a New Era

[Marcus Daniels]

Not a technical difference, but a social difference.   We had to go through the 
phase of Java failing in this space, and JavaScript not being the right tool 
for the job.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ep ropella
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 2:52 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What is WebAssembly? The Dawn of a New Era

On 09/15/2015 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> https://medium.com/javascript-scene/what-is-webassembly-the-dawn-of-a-
> new-era-61256ec5a8f6

Nice article, thanks!  I can't help but wonder if (as Ray commented re: 
unikernels) we're simply returning to the past.  I'm too ignorant to see how 
this is _fundamentally_ different from virtual machines and bytecode.

--
glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847


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Re: [FRIAM] Why The Internet Needs IPFS Before It’s Too Late

[Marcus Daniels]

There's also StorJ which is already 
tradable.


Marcus

[http://storj.io/img/logo-blue.svg]

Storj - The Future of Cloud Storage
Take back control of your data. Secure, autonomous, blockchain based, 
decentralized storage.
Read more...





From: Friam  on behalf of Tom Johnson 

Sent: Monday, October 5, 2015 2:15 PM
To: Friam@redfish. com
Subject: [FRIAM] Why The Internet Needs IPFS Before It’s Too Late

Article: 
http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/04/why-the-internet-needs-ipfs-before-its-too-late/
[https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/linksweb.jpg?w=764=140=1]

Why The Internet Needs IPFS Before It’s Too Late | TechCrunch
IPFS isn’t exactly a well-known technology yet, even among many in the Valley, 
but it’s quickly spreading by word of mouth among folks in the open-source..
Read 
more...



Tom Johnson


Sent with 
MailTrack


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Re: [FRIAM] Good climate change skeptics

[Marcus Daniels]

"Defending a subtle concept of faith to this crowd is like arguing for 
moderation instead of abstinence at an AA meeting."

As long as they can be held in solitary confinement, and prevented  from 
organizing, they can have all of the "moderation" they want!  But if as they 
have organized, then those who have seen the consequences of that organization 
and don't much like it, must also organize.  Such is the way of power and 
politics.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Good climate change skeptics

[Marcus Daniels]

In practice, the tactic of creating doubt tends to be more about creating fear, 
and decreasing the resolve of the opponent, than it is about increasing the 
prevalence of skeptical thinking.   I think flip-flopping is not that hard of a 
skill to master, it's whether one wants to devote the needed attention to segue 
between today's lie and tomorrow's in a sufficiently smooth way.At some 
level, any competence can be self-reinforcing and even enjoyable.

Marcus

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 1:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Good climate change skeptics

On 09/23/2015 11:38 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> As long as they can be held in solitary confinement, and prevented  from 
> organizing, they can have all of the "moderation" they want!  But if as they 
> have organized, then those who have seen the consequences of that 
> organization and don't much like it, must also organize.  Such is the way of 
> power and politics.

Several groups are organizing in response: the moderation management groups 
(http://www.moderation.org/), an apparent minority of addiction researchers 
working to overturn the "disease model", Sam Harris and fans clustering around 
the horrible concept of spirituality without religion, methodological 
ritualists (e.g. yoga or meditation), etc.

And as much as I agree with your dialectical position of opposite organizing, I 
maintain that the deeper problem is the inherent commitment involved.  Power 
and politics are not really about organizing opposites.  It's about steadily 
punching (small) holes in the convictions of the arlready organized.  We see 
this practically in someone like Bernie Sanders, a career politician if there 
ever was such a thing.  But he can self-consistently deny that he's a "career 
politician" by citing his anti-authoritarian hole-punching.  Another example 
might be the hidden powerful in the beltway... the people who would rule us 
completely if we installed term limits on all elected offices.  Those people 
don't organize, at least not dialectically, so much as they navigate whatever 
constellation of agents and objects exist at any given time ... the skill is to 
flip-flop (abandon commitments) when the landscape suggests it's right to 
flip-flop.  (thank Ct hulhu).

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, I assume that if my connectome could be scanned with sufficient fidelity, 
and stored in a computer, that it would be possible, someday, to both query my 
memories, but also to measure emotional responses, in silico.  Probably even 
start and stop consciousness.The trick would be figuring out the 
interfaces, but obvious places to start would be the visual cortex, auditory 
centers, and various incoming nerves.It could sort of be approaches as a 
machine learning problem, like is beginning to be done with replacement limbs.  

Sure there are aspects of my physical self that are slightly unique to me, but 
I would expect they are modularized.   The experience of running, typing, and 
so on.   But those things aren't me.   If anything, it would seem to be 
thrilling to experience other real or simulated nervous systems.  

Yes, I know, what huge waste of disk space!
Btw, what rights do the dead have to their own memories?   A whole new field of 
IP law!

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:22 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

Glen/Nick -
>> Having said that, am I allowed to say, "Crap!  I wish you didn't have 
>> cancer!'
> Of course.  Thanks.  But just to be argumentative,
...
> I am cancer.  It's probably not true of all cancers, though.
I recently had a long conversation with a Muslim friend from Australia who 
donated her bone marrow to her sister to replace hers after it was deliberately 
destroyed by chemo/rad to stop *her* cancer.

This was against Islamic law but she and her family felt like they had still 
done the right thing.  She is now hyper aware that her sister is a 
Chimera, though she didn't have the term for it.   She believes that her 
sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At 
first I wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I am more 
sympathetic to her position.

The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
transference, the curiouser it all gets!  I feel like we need the molecular 
biology equivalent of Oliver Sacks (RIP) in the house to bring a more popular 
understanding to the table of this fascinating field!

I was fascinated as a child to learn about tree grafting in nut and citrus 
orchards, and later organ transplants in humans, but this goes a 
step further since it is roughly "systemic".   This also lead me to 
reflect on birth-chimeras where multiple zygotes fuse early on to yield a 
single fetus and ultimately full human organism but with a mixture of cells 
with filial genomics.

I have friends who are "mirror" twins who each have a third nipple on opposite 
sides of their body (slightly lower than the conventional location).  They 
believed this to suggest that they had begun as triplets and that there was 
such a fusion during the early embryological 
process.   I didn't recognize any other chimeric properties (sometimes 
evidenced by piebald skin or hair markings).

This is NOT your father's Genetics!   My father studied biology in the 
late 1940s, my own molecular biology experience is roughly circa 1984, and my 
daughter's PhD in molecular biology is only about 7 years old now, yet *even 
her* "book larnin' " in the general field, and in particular epigenetics is 
getting stale fast!

- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

Right! 

http://alcor.org/AtWork/index.html

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Parks, Raymond
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:39 AM
To: 'friam@redfish.com' <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into 
Chimerism and Epigenetics)

It would be much more convenient to store your head in a jar, a la Futurama.  
And more comedic.

Ray Parks




- Original Message -
From: Marcus Daniels [mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 09:33 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into 
Chimerism and Epigenetics)

Well, I assume that if my connectome could be scanned with sufficient fidelity, 
and stored in a computer, that it would be possible, someday, to both query my 
memories, but also to measure emotional responses, in silico.  Probably even 
start and stop consciousness.The trick would be figuring out the 
interfaces, but obvious places to start would be the visual cortex, auditory 
centers, and various incoming nerves.It could sort of be approaches as a 
machine learning problem, like is beginning to be done with replacement limbs.  

Sure there are aspects of my physical self that are slightly unique to me, but 
I would expect they are modularized.   The experience of running, typing, and 
so on.   But those things aren't me.   If anything, it would seem to be 
thrilling to experience other real or simulated nervous systems.  

Yes, I know, what huge waste of disk space!
Btw, what rights do the dead have to their own memories?   A whole new field of 
IP law!

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:22 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

Glen/Nick -
>> Having said that, am I allowed to say, "Crap!  I wish you didn't have 
>> cancer!'
> Of course.  Thanks.  But just to be argumentative,
...
> I am cancer.  It's probably not true of all cancers, though.
I recently had a long conversation with a Muslim friend from Australia who 
donated her bone marrow to her sister to replace hers after it was deliberately 
destroyed by chemo/rad to stop *her* cancer.

This was against Islamic law but she and her family felt like they had still 
done the right thing.  She is now hyper aware that her sister is a 
Chimera, though she didn't have the term for it.   She believes that her 
sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At 
first I wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I am more 
sympathetic to her position.

The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
transference, the curiouser it all gets!  I feel like we need the molecular 
biology equivalent of Oliver Sacks (RIP) in the house to bring a more popular 
understanding to the table of this fascinating field!

I was fascinated as a child to learn about tree grafting in nut and citrus 
orchards, and later organ transplants in humans, but this goes a 
step further since it is roughly "systemic".   This also lead me to 
reflect on birth-chimeras where multiple zygotes fuse early on to yield a 
single fetus and ultimately full human organism but with a mixture of cells 
with filial genomics.

I have friends who are "mirror" twins who each have a third nipple on opposite 
sides of their body (slightly lower than the conventional location).  They 
believed this to suggest that they had begun as triplets and that there was 
such a fusion during the early embryological 
process.   I didn't recognize any other chimeric properties (sometimes 
evidenced by piebald skin or hair markings).

This is NOT your father's Genetics!   My father studied biology in the 
late 1940s, my own molecular biology experience is roughly circa 1984, and my 
daughter's PhD in molecular biology is only about 7 years old now, yet *even 
her* "book larnin' " in the general field, and in particular epigenetics is 
getting stale fast!

- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

"Ray Kurzweil will be rolling over in his memory bank one day when we talk like 
this!"

Don't confuse your memmove(3) and memcpy(3).Big trouble!

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

Or how about (the perception of) clear thinking motivated by a recognition of 
mortality.   And an ugly consequence of YOLO.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 11:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

On 09/24/2015 09:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Let's assume the bad behavior has nothing to do with the "increased mental 
> acuity".  What is the cancer drug he attributes to his discovery of time 
> travel?   The pharmaceutical company would no doubt like to know too.

I don't remember the details.  But it was speculated (by one of the local 
dorkbot guys) to be a result of stem cell therapy.  It's typical to take a 
traditional therapeutic route the 1st and even 2nd round.  So, my guess would 
be the stem cell therapy was the 3rd round of treatment.  We build resistance 
against drug and chemo classes during each round, which is why they usually use 
different treatment each round.  And I'm ignorant about Hodgkins, which is 
different from mine.  But I don't know the timing, whether he filed the patent 
prior to the 3rd round or what.

I kinda stopped watching Portlandia.  But it's _very_ Portlandia to have a 
bunch of lab equipment where you try to do things like "make absinthe" ... 
whether or not most of these Portlanders are actually cooking up date-rape 
drugs or are simply curious DIY makers is a question the TV show should pursue 
... falls right in line with the Shanghai Tunnel tradition here ... maybe 
that's not hipster-funny enough, though.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

"I don't get it?  Are you saying you had STEM cell/bone marrow transplant from 
this guy and were afraid his genome might be at fault in his bad habits"

Hypothetically, certain protein mixes could signal to somatic cells to unspool 
their nucleosome (to some extent) back to the form more like a stem cell.   If 
that happened, the new more versatile form might also carry new errors that 
come with age.   From the remodeled stem cells, new cells result, but one from 
a blueprint with some coffee spilled on it.   Could be interesting.

Marcus 


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