Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
You may laugh about putting a diaper around the cpu's, but the top of the G5 PSU actually comes with exactly that fixed to it on the liquid cooled models. When I asked you to check for corrosion and possible leaks, I should have told you that you must remove the heat sinks and liquid cooling system to check for leaks around the O rings of the heat sinks. You cannot see it unless you remove the G5 CPU boards from the computer. On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 4-11-2011 21:57, David W. Morris ha scritto: Have you opened up your Dual 2.7GHz G5 and removed the CPU's to check for corrosion, or leaks? Yes, I heard about this problem with liquid-cooled G5s, so when I got it I immediately opened and checked it out. No leaks or any trace whatsoever (lucky me :-). Anyway, back to the point of my message. I suggest you check any liquid cooled G5 Mac computer for leaks and corrosion, before you have a catastrophic leak and failure that damages the motherboard and PSU Now that you make me think about it... it could happen anytime. :-/ (or, since it's 6 years old now, it's tested enough?) Should I check it every now and then? The G5 sits under my desk, and it's not immediately accessible. Should I put a diaper around the CPUs, just in case? ;-D -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 9:54 PM, David W. Morris wrote: You may laugh about putting a diaper around the cpu's, but the top of the G5 PSU actually comes with exactly that fixed to it on the liquid cooled models. When I asked you to check for corrosion and possible leaks, I should have told you that you must remove the heat sinks and liquid cooling system to check for leaks around the O rings of the heat sinks. You cannot see it unless you remove the G5 CPU boards from the computer. I was told many times that the liquid cooled Apples were a mistake. But I take issue with that, the technologic and industrial design was an Apple stroke of genius necessary to cool the monster processors, The problem was the manufacturer of the LCS's, Delphi (a GM company) was chosen and if you take a look at GM's quality track record over the last 30 years then it's telling why Panasonic saved the day. But Apple had a lot of machines out there before the problem became an issue hence the bad mark. I can fix the Delphi's and make those super G5 PM PPC machines run with the big dogs, However the folks that own most of them are professionals and don't have the where with all nor the time to do this. If you can snag a Panasonic LCS ( make sure to get the intake bezel or fashion one) It's a good choice, this machine is the last, fastest and finest PPC Apple produced. IMHO a work of industrial art. And a carrot is Apple has dropped the Mac Pro so the big box is a thing to admire. I call mine Stanley after the Stanley Steamer My friends are in awe to see a Mac with two water pumps and a radiator. My Mac Pro althohgh air cooled (Neil) is a fine companion to this work horse. :-) I guess I'm a little biased being a CNC programer and manufacturer. John Carmonne Yorba Linda CA 92886 USA MacPro 2.66 Quad Nehalem -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
Il giorno 5-11-2011 5:54, David W. Morris ha scritto: When I asked you to check for corrosion and possible leaks, I should have told you that you must remove the heat sinks and liquid cooling system to check for leaks around the O rings of the heat sinks. You cannot see it unless you remove the G5 CPU boards from the computer. Wow, lot of work. :-| When I did my check, I just removed the metal plate covering the CPUs/Heat sinks (the one with G5 on it). If there was any significant leak, there should have been at least some trace on the floor plate below the CPUs (and there wasn't any). OTOH, taking from what John Carmonne said, if my G5 hasn't leaked anything yet, is probably the one having the (better) Panasonic LCS. Il giorno 5-11-2011 0:39, JohnCarmonne ha scritto: Apple had two different LCS's in the G5 PM 2.7 the Delphi (single pump) it was pretty sure to leak and need to be rebuilt the other LCS was made by Panasonic (two pumps) that AFAIK never has leaked yet. John, is there any easy way to tell which LCS I have on my G5? I don't know anything about pumps :-) but I think there should be some sticker or sign telling the manufacturer, somewhere... Or, maybe, you can infere it from Serial number? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 5, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 5-11-2011 5:54, David W. Morris ha scritto: When I asked you to check for corrosion and possible leaks, I should have told you that you must remove the heat sinks and liquid cooling system to check for leaks around the O rings of the heat sinks. You cannot see it unless you remove the G5 CPU boards from the computer. Wow, lot of work. :-| When I did my check, I just removed the metal plate covering the CPUs/Heat sinks (the one with G5 on it). If there was any significant leak, there should have been at least some trace on the floor plate below the CPUs (and there wasn't any). OTOH, taking from what John Carmonne said, if my G5 hasn't leaked anything yet, is probably the one having the (better) Panasonic LCS. Il giorno 5-11-2011 0:39, JohnCarmonne ha scritto: Apple had two different LCS's in the G5 PM 2.7 the Delphi (single pump) it was pretty sure to leak and need to be rebuilt the other LCS was made by Panasonic (two pumps) that AFAIK never has leaked yet. John, is there any easy way to tell which LCS I have on my G5? I don't know anything about pumps :-) but I think there should be some sticker or sign telling the manufacturer, somewhere... Or, maybe, you can infere it from Serial number? The easy way is to look at it with the G5 cover off and if it has copper tubes it's a Panasonic. The top of the processor has the name also you can send me a pic off- list and I can tell you. Plus not all the Delphi's will leak but it's a real problem with these machines if you need one rebuilt you can do it your self or Brian at DTT will do it cheap. http://www.dttservice.com/ John Carmonne Yorba Linda CA 92886 From iMac Core Duo 2.0 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 7:34 AM, Len Gerstel wrote: Everything I have read is that 10.X installs are monolithic. ie: they include everything needed for any machine that will run the OS. I know G5s can run 10.5, but we still have classic apps that we run and I have not been able to get SheepShaver working. Remote desktopping into a G4 will be a later project. It is a Dual 2.0 G5. I believe it is the 2004 dual 2.0 with pci-x slots. (at the price and speed bump from a DA dual 533 and a Sawtooth 400, I am not being picky on which dual 2.0). My plan is to install the HD for the G5 into my DA (with a SATA card) and just clone my DA HD onto it. Yes, I know a fresh install is best, but I don't have the time or organization to do that here. Any flaws? Thanks, Just CCC right to the G5 PM and it will run just like the DA only faster. My G5 PM 2.7 has Tiger and Leopard on separate partitions. I also need classic. John Carmonne Yorba Linda CA 92886 From iMac Core Duo 2.0 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
Il giorno 4-11-2011 15:34, Len Gerstel ha scritto: My plan is to install the HD for the G5 into my DA (with a SATA card) and just clone my DA HD onto it. I had the same situation (OSX 10.4.11 from G4 DA to G5 2.7) some time ago, asked about it and everybody said Go ahead, clone it! No problem at all. And they were right. :-) Only thing, if you have some app optimized for G4 processors (like TenFourFox), you better swap it with the G5 version. IMO, the fastest and simplest way to do this cloning, is thru Firewire Target disk mode: just connect the two Macs with a Firewire cable, boot the receiving (target) Mac holding down the T key, and do your cloning. No need to move HDs around. :-) -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 1:11 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 4-11-2011 15:34, Len Gerstel ha scritto: My plan is to install the HD for the G5 into my DA (with a SATA card) and just clone my DA HD onto it. I had the same situation (OSX 10.4.11 from G4 DA to G5 2.7) some time ago, asked about it and everybody said Go ahead, clone it! No problem at all. And they were right. :-) That is what I figured. I just wanted to make sure before I started playing with my new toy. Only thing, if you have some app optimized for G4 processors (like TenFourFox), you better swap it with the G5 version. But at least I won't have to remember do I have a 7400 or 7410? IMO, the fastest and simplest way to do this cloning, is thru Firewire Target disk mode: just connect the two Macs with a Firewire cable, boot the receiving (target) Mac holding down the T key, and do your cloning. No need to move HDs around. :-) Tough call. I like mucking around and straight to SATA will be faster than Firewire 400. I could show off how cool the 10 year old Target Disk Mode feature is, but the coolness will be lost on the people that will be around to see it. I was mostly concerned about pci-x and the fan controls. I don't know if I am getting a hardware test disk with it. Len -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
Il giorno 4-11-2011 18:41, Len Gerstel ha scritto: Tough call. I like mucking around and straight to SATA will be faster than Firewire 400. Sure. And it's geekier swapping disks and connecting them... :-D I was mostly concerned about pci-x and the fan controls. I don't know if I am getting a hardware test disk with it. My G5 (2,7 DP) is quite silent. During normal operations, I can barely hear any noise. Just every now and then, fans spin up for some seconds, then stop again. But it could be the liquid cooling making it much less needy for fans spinning. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 4-11-2011 18:41, Len Gerstel ha scritto: I was mostly concerned about pci-x and the fan controls. I don't know if I am getting a hardware test disk with it. My G5 (2,7 DP) is quite silent. During normal operations, I can barely hear any noise. Just every now and then, fans spin up for some seconds, then stop again. Sorry for not clarifying. I am not referring to the standard fans. I have seen may posts on the G list regarding fans running at full speed and needing to be re-calibrated. Len -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Kris Tilford wrote: On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:31 PM, JohnCarmonne wrote: You're going to need the ASD 2.5.7 to check and calibrate the fans. I have this ASD 2.5.7, but I've never actually checked and calibrated the fans. When Apple replaced the logicboard CPUs they forgot to calibrate the fans, and I didn't have ASD 2.5.7 then, so I couldn't do it myself, and it cost me another full week without my G5, plus a 120 miles of driving and a $5 toll. Now I've got ASD 2.5.7, but since I've never used it, could you give some pointers? I understand the ASD discs are dual boot? Boot the Mac, insert the ASD 2.5.7 disc, then restart, holding down the Option key to select whether to boot from the ASD Open Firmware or from the OS boot volume. You need to boot from and run both in order to do a complete test of your Mac. Before booting from the ASD disc, peruse the Read Me file to learn how to run the calibration software, which is one of the options when you get booted to an ASD volume. Easy peasy. HTH, Jim Scott -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
Have you opened up your Dual 2.7GHz G5 and removed the CPU's to check for corrosion, or leaks? I have both a dual 2.7GHz and dual 2.5gHz G5 PowerMac and both of them had the beginnings of leaks and considerable corrosion from the O rings, so I took them apart, cleaned off the corrosion and put them back together. I did not have replacement O rings like I should have, so I used some high heat silicone automotive gasket maker to augment the O rings and hopefully prevent any future leaks at that location. I know that it was very low tech and a bit of a hack to do it that way, but I did not want to leave the liquid coolant system open while I waited for new O rings to show up in the mail and I needed to put the systems back together to re-test the dual 2.5GHz system for someone that wanted to buy it. For some reason, only one of the two 2.5GHz G5 CPU's is being shown as working in the About this Mac menu item. When I swap the G5's from one side to the other, it is always the same side that is not working, so both of the G5 CPU's work and it must be a fault with the Motherboard, or G5 socket that is not working correctly. Anyway, back to the point of my message. I suggest you check any liquid cooled G5 Mac computer for leaks and corrosion, before you have a catastrophic leak and failure that damages the motherboard and PSU that sits under the G5 CPU's (bad design for a liquid cooled system). On Nov 4, 2011, at 1:12 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 4-11-2011 18:41, Len Gerstel ha scritto: Tough call. I like mucking around and straight to SATA will be faster than Firewire 400. Sure. And it's geekier swapping disks and connecting them... :-D I was mostly concerned about pci-x and the fan controls. I don't know if I am getting a hardware test disk with it. My G5 (2,7 DP) is quite silent. During normal operations, I can barely hear any noise. Just every now and then, fans spin up for some seconds, then stop again. But it could be the liquid cooling making it much less needy for fans spinning. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
Il giorno 4-11-2011 21:57, David W. Morris ha scritto: Have you opened up your Dual 2.7GHz G5 and removed the CPU's to check for corrosion, or leaks? Yes, I heard about this problem with liquid-cooled G5s, so when I got it I immediately opened and checked it out. No leaks or any trace whatsoever (lucky me :-). Anyway, back to the point of my message. I suggest you check any liquid cooled G5 Mac computer for leaks and corrosion, before you have a catastrophic leak and failure that damages the motherboard and PSU Now that you make me think about it... it could happen anytime. :-/ (or, since it's 6 years old now, it's tested enough?) Should I check it every now and then? The G5 sits under my desk, and it's not immediately accessible. Should I put a diaper around the CPUs, just in case? ;-D -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 4-11-2011 21:57, David W. Morris ha scritto: Anyway, back to the point of my message. I suggest you check any liquid cooled G5 Mac computer for leaks and corrosion, before you have a catastrophic leak and failure that damages the motherboard and PSU Should I check it every now and then? The G5 sits under my desk, and it's not immediately accessible. Should I put a diaper around the CPUs, just in case? ;-D Diaper? Heh. There's no effective way to do that and not defeat the rather elaborate cooling system. And, the danger from leaks isn't so much to the CPUs as it is to the power supply, which lives directly underneath the CPUs and cooling system. In fact, Apple already has installed a diaper-like absorbent pad on the metal plate that covers the power supply opening. But it's only effective in catching the first drops when a leak starts, which means frequent inspections are your best bet. Or upgrade Apple's pad with one made from a spare pair of Depends. :^) Jim Scott -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Jim Scott wrote: On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote: Il giorno 4-11-2011 21:57, David W. Morris ha scritto: Anyway, back to the point of my message. I suggest you check any liquid cooled G5 Mac computer for leaks and corrosion, before you have a catastrophic leak and failure that damages the motherboard and PSU Should I check it every now and then? The G5 sits under my desk, and it's not immediately accessible. Should I put a diaper around the CPUs, just in case? ;-D Diaper? Heh. There's no effective way to do that and not defeat the rather elaborate cooling system. And, the danger from leaks isn't so much to the CPUs as it is to the power supply, which lives directly underneath the CPUs and cooling system. In fact, Apple already has installed a diaper-like absorbent pad on the metal plate that covers the power supply opening. But it's only effective in catching the first drops when a leak starts, which means frequent inspections are your best bet. Or upgrade Apple's pad with one made from a spare pair of Depends. :^) Jim Scott Apple had two different LCS's in the G5 PM 2.7 the Delphi (single pump) it was pretty sure to leak and need to be rebuilt the other LCS was made by Panasonic (two pumps) that AFAIK never has leaked yet. I replaced my Delphi after two rebuilds and one Power supply with the later model Panasonic it's a much better built unit and easy to service if needed. No diaper needed:-) John Carmonne Yorba Linda CA 92886 USA MacPro 2.66 Quad Nehalem -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
On Nov 4, 2011, at 1:57 PM, David W. Morris wrote: . For some reason, only one of the two 2.5GHz G5 CPU's is being shown as working in the About this Mac menu item. When I swap the G5's from one side to the other, it is always the same side that is not working, so both of the G5 CPU's work and it must be a fault with the Motherboard, or G5 socket that is not working correctly. I pretty much can tell you the logic board is bad, Look for white traces on the board in the processor area under the clear plastic barrier, Windex may take care of that. You got nothing to lose at this point:-) But you have a chance since it boots I would remove the board and do a good cleaning, The ASD should tell you if the MOBO is dust, John Carmonne Yorba Linda CA 92886 USA MacPro 2.66 Quad Nehalem -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Can I CCC a 10.4 from a G4 DA to a G5?
I transfered Tiger from my Quicksilver to my G5 with no problems. Been running it for about 8 months now... On Nov 4, 2011, at 10:34 AM, Len Gerstel wrote: Everything I have read is that 10.X installs are monolithic. ie: they include everything needed for any machine that will run the OS. I know G5s can run 10.5, but we still have classic apps that we run and I have not been able to get SheepShaver working. Remote desktopping into a G4 will be a later project. It is a Dual 2.0 G5. I believe it is the 2004 dual 2.0 with pci-x slots. (at the price and speed bump from a DA dual 533 and a Sawtooth 400, I am not being picky on which dual 2.0). My plan is to install the HD for the G5 into my DA (with a SATA card) and just clone my DA HD onto it. Yes, I know a fresh install is best, but I don't have the time or organization to do that here. Any flaws? Thanks, Len -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
