Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dennis, right. I think what is hard for people who are not in business, who are not programmers, etc to understand is that older products like XP are no longer making Microsoft money. They released it in 2001 and was selling it up until 2010 or so. After a certain point they sold as many copies of XP as they could, and now they have to make money by creating newer operating systems like Vista, Win 7, and Win 8. The only way to sell those newer operating systems is to add new features, make changes to the user interface, etc that are not available in prior products. What Dark and others fail to realize is simply this. How does Microsoft continue to maintain Windows XP if the operating system is no longer making them money? How do they compete with Linux and Mac OS if they never change and build new interfaces etc similar to their competition? Plus as you said even though change doesn't seem very beneficial there usually are advantages to upgrading. They might not be obvious at first, but they are there if a person looks for them. For example, one feature in Win 7 I really like is the ability to pin apps to the taskbar. I can press win+1 through win+0 to open the apps from the taskbar directly and if the app is already open, say window 1, I can press win+1 to jump immediately to that window without having to alt+tab through all the open windows. Its nice and handy and once I got use to it I find older versions of Windows like XP lacking in features I've come to expect to have. Its easy to say I don't need this or that feature but once a user comes to use them a lot, to rely on them being there, XP doesn't seem that fantastic in the final analysis. At least that's been my experience. Of course, I'm looking at this from the point of a convert rather than someone who is happy and satisfied with the status quo. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 5:24 PM, Dennis Towne wrote: As a programmer and developer, I understand completely why Microsoft (or any developer for that matter) would want to discontinue an older product. Maintenance is expensive and irritating. Keep in mind that if they simply try to continue XP (and every other product that some minority group prefers), they will lose money. If they go broke, there are no more products. How do you think MS pays for XP maintenance right now? They do it with sales of products that make money. XP doesn't make money anymore, and they couldn't make it pay for itself if they tried. I've had similar complaints come up on Alter Aeon - why don't I just make ltypes 0 and 1 optional, why don't I just make PPK optional, why don't I bring up separate servers that allow multiplaying, etc. If I tried to do even a fraction of these things, AA would never progress because I'd be spending all my time maintaining crap that doesn't actually make the game any better. All developers have to pick and choose their battles. Microsoft is no different. I know it may be irritating to have to change your ways or learn new things, but the fact of the matter is that we can't all be expecting windows 3.1 (or whatever your favorite version is) to work the same way for the next 20 years. Change happens. It may not seem like it, but usually, it actually is for the better. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, That's correct. Windows 8 now uses UI Automation which has drastically improved accessibility and has pretty much done away with the video intercept drivers we've seen on prior versions of Windows. So access is actually improving under Windows 8 not getting less accessible. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:02 PM, shaun everiss wrote: well a gwmicro win eyes csun review has win8 going to uia more meaning no drivers are required. Ofcause if ms had done this before we relied on sapi, mssa and a whole bunch of other libs for access it would be ok. It sounds like though ti will be better for everyone, however why they made us use all that junk if it was going to be put in a few years into 1 library thats the issue. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Shaun, Hard to say, but the audio games industry will probably have to change just like everything else. I can't say when, but the way hand-held devices like the iPhones and Droid phones are selling we could do well, as audio gamers, to think about targeting those devices as more and more blind users have them. Even Windows 8 is a different ball of wax for a number of reasons and I highly recommend people learn Microsoft's .NET languages because that is now the standard development platform and tools for Windows 8. However, weather audio game developers will do that or not is probably asking too much of them. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:07 PM, shaun everiss wrote: Well tom I aggree with you, except for one ms has shown they don't or won't want to put accessability in a phone. If what you say is true, then in a few years or so we will all run android os on our pcs and I look foreward to that day!! Windows touch will not be as accessable as other tablet oses like iphone or android. ANd until it is we will have to be annoyed by it not being so. Saying that, I have a friend in the education industry and it seems its going back to 34 grand braille note tablets running windows ce so maybe if it ever dropps as you say we will be carrying round several of those gismos. I wander what that will do to the existing audiogames industry. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Actually, we are very close to the full voice input and voice output type system you are talking about. For the last few Windows versions Microsoft has included speech recognition software as well as the Narrator screen reader. From what I've seen of the Windows 8 versions Narrator has become a lot better than prior versions, is more like Apple's Voiceover, and the speech recognition in Win 8 is much improved as well. I still think Dragon is better than Microsoft Speech Recognition, but for a free voice input software its pretty decent. As to your point about high definition I don't think anyone actually uses their cell phone or tablet for that kind of thing. Remember there are alternative devices for that such as 80 inch flat screen plasma displays and blue ray DVD players for watching movies and high definition video. Who needs a computer when they can have a home theater like that. Same goes for playing games. Truth is that the XBox 360, Play Station III, Wii, etc is where the major game market is right now. Yes, there are still PC games being made, but a lot of the gamers I know don't use their PC so much for games. Instead they use their XBox, connect it to a high definition flat screen TV, and on a 60 inch flat screen TV its much better than on a 20 inch monitor. Bottom line, my point is there are alternatives to the PC already. You are still thinking in terms of the PC being an all in one device, but that's changing as newer and better alternatives appear. cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:55 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: All of this might be true... But I have several questions. If mobile devices and new technologies are created and let's say touchscreens are so great, why not take it up another level and finally create a computer system like the fictional LCARS from Star Trek, where you have instant access to your data and where you have the option of full real time interactive voice control plus voice output of everything? Surely voice input and output shouldn't be desired by blind users in the world alone, it could be adapted for everyone. And the other thing I am wondering about is the usage of mobile devices in general. I was born blind and could never see, nor do I currently have a device like an IPhone... But I'd like to ask anyone who could see at some point in their life to tell me why watching some HD videos on super small mobile displays or playing complex and graphically intensive games with said small devices instead of using more stationary devices and large screens capable of handling digital HD media? I can understand why people would like to have more functions in small devices. But things like listening to music with more than two speakers like 5.1 or 7.1 audio systems or watching high resolution movies and such surely should remain on the currently needed technology instead of being ported to small devices unless you can adapt them as well to handle all this. I don't know what the processing capabilities of android phones are or what said capabilities are for other mobile devices, but I doubt that they are really better than current high tech computing equipment and the big computer networks and super computers. Surely, there is still time for such developments, but the question remains who does set such trents and can companies like Microsoft influence or stop such trents, because Microsoft is not small and should have considerable power, so it could be asked if Microsoft must adapt, or could Microsoft force others to adapt to whatever they create. Besides, why do we or companies have to follow and copy whatever someone makes before us? This discussion of user interfaces (Office 2003 vs 2007 design for example) is pointless in my opinion. I personally don't have problems with the idea of changing the design of a program. But we do we have to be forced to a design. Let's take the Office 2007 design for an example. I have read several reports and posts in various forums (sighted users) where people were not happy with the new design not because they had to learn new things, but because they did not have a choice in the matter meaning that everyone who got the new Office for whatever reason had to use the new design. But what I never got in this talk was, why Microsoft did not offer two designs? Look at Windows Media Player or Winamp. Both programs have skins which you can download or create yourself to alter and customice the interface of your program. But why don't more programs have the option for skins (surely it can't be because they want to make money, because you could theoretically sell anything you develop). So, what is the problem with the talks of designs and user feedback companies are getting and seemingly ignore here and there sometimes? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Simple. by adopting a universal interface, universal look and feel, a developer will reduce complexity and the time it takes to learn the software. The Basic principle behind the new user interfaces is that if a customer learns an interface and a developer of a different product has a similar interface the customer will be able to use the new product with very little effort. That's why there is a drive to move to the more touchscreen type user interfaces, and have a more universal look and feel between desktop software and hand-held software. In addition, to that the way we are heading the software that runs on your PC may also be the same software running on your next generation cell phone, tablet, PDA, etc. So adopting a universal user interface in advance will help customers switch back and forth from their hand-held device and their PC. For example, I recently asked someone from Ubuntu why they decided to use Unity instead of Gnome. The answer I got back is that its part of their marketing strategy. In addition to Del building desktops, laptops, and netbooks with Ubuntu preloaded on them Cononical apparently has a deal going where Ubuntu will be embedded in several hand-held devices like tablets and smart phones requiring a newer interface for touchscreens etc. All this make sense considering that if I have Ubuntu on a PC and have a smart phone, tablet, etc I'd certainly want the user interface to be the same rather than having to learn two different user interfaces for the same OS. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 7:59 PM, Michael Gauler wrote: And wwhere are the still existing computer or netbook and laptop users whoose hardware doesn't have touchscreen capabilities? Do they think at all? Surely, android might look nice, but what is more important, the look or the functionality? And who exactly thinks that the visual design of Android or IOS is cool? And moreover, Android and IOS devices are not exactly like a desktop computer, so why should a desktop computer have the interface of another device in the first place? Why must it all be alike? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Alright, but here is where your argument actually falls apart. If you want to talk about access on Windows 8 I can say access has actually improved. There are a number of areas where access has actually increased and not decreased in Windows, and is well worth noting. First, UI automation. In Windows 8 Microsoft has been deprecating a number of access technologies like MSAA in favor of UI Automation. Its a huge improvement over MSAA, is now a standard part of the Windows API, and any application designed with UI Automation in mind should be accessible without video intercept drivers, scripts, and any of the other crap screen readers have had to use to make prior versions of Windows applications accessible. Second, Windows Narrator has been drastically improved under Windows 8. It looks to me like Microsoft has basically copied Apple's Voiceover screen reader which is not a bad thing. Narrator is far more functional as a screen reader in Windows 8 than prior versions, and thanks to UI Automation any app using it will be accessible to Narrator out of the box. Third, MS Sapi 5.5 is an improvement over earlier versions. Windows 8 now has some new voices available and they blow away Mike, Mary, and Sam found in XP. Even Microsoft Anna which first appeared in Vista was an improvement. Fourth, Microsoft Speech Recognition. Its perhaps not as good as say Dragon Naturally Speaking, but from beta testing the new version the recognition engine is better than prior versions too. So both people with mobility and visual impairments can take advantage of voice input under Windows 8 if they want to. Finally, touchscreen technology is making huge access improvements for people with mobility impairments. All they have to do is point to the screen, and tap the icon they want a couple of times to open it up. This is often easier than using a mouse, trackball, touchpad, etc as a person can interact with Windows 8 with a single finger. Bottom line, if you want to make the case that more and more effort is required to gain equal access to Windows I don't think it really holds a lot of water. From what I've seen of Win 8 so far the opposite is true. Less effort is required because the access technology present is superior to anything else Microsoft has released to date. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 8:28 PM, dark wrote: Hi Dennis. the problem is this isn't about learning new things or preferring older systems, this is about access. As per my phd thesis, access = equal, or as close to equal as possible amounts of effort betwene groups with different biological limitations, and whatever way you cut the cookie, more and more effort is having to be expanded with the newer trends in Ui microsoft are implementing. It's rather like a building being rennivated and putting in escalators while wripping up the old ramps that paraplegics could use to enter. It is true that there is little to know prophet in access, however if we followed that line of thinking to it's ultimate conclusion, very little would be accessible. Access is an ethical matter and as such falls outside te of the basic tennits of capitalism, and this is why we can cryticise microsoft mainstream game companies etc, for following prophet only rather than access measures (indeed this is where Carl marx was exactly right in noting that the persuit of prophit is itself an amoral motivation, not an ethical one). plus I might add that saving money seems a pretty feeble excuse for the worlds richest coorporation which is paying most of it's manual workers in china and tyland a pittance. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] X-Sight-Interactive moving!
Hi folks, It's been a long time coming, and after giving them chance after chance after chance, it is finally here. The X-Sight Interactive website is being transferred to a hopefully much more reliable web hosting service. Many aspects of the service we were being given, including unreliable mail, erratic FTP access, a sky high upkeep cost, more and more extensive server downtime, and worst of all, the staff's complete lack of knowledge on problem solving, have made this change necessary. What does this mean for you? Depending on various factors, there may or may not be some downtime. If all goes to plan, the transition should be smooth and nobody will notice the change. However, because this is the primary domain that I am removing from my other provider, I don't know how long they will keep my data active until I have migrated everything over. Therefore if there is any unexpected downtime all I can do is apologise in advance. I am hoping the change will be completed fully by next Monday, so if there are any aspects of the site that don't work by then, please let me know, off list. Also, since I now have several email addresses, I should be able to keep regular contact with the list again. Kind regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. Well the upgreading part, I'll have to considder, but I think I would be very wary of upgrading simply! to upgrade, or simply because I had to, that's why i'd like some bennifits. I take your point about laptops, however I am still not convinced, for those who use desktop pcs as a general media system as indeed myself, many of my friends and my brother do, sinse that's something where you need! a larger unit that has a full sized keyboard, can connect to a really good quality monitor, set of 5.1 speakers etc. Btw, as for what I do when this laptop breaks, the answer is probably change for an Iphone, sinse while I still want windows on a desktop, there are lots of portable things I'd want an Ios device to do, and indeed several Ios things and games I'd want specifically. So I think i'd opt for either an Iphone or an Ipad rather than a laptop. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, like I've said before there isn't much use in upgrading if it doesn't offer anything new for you personally. However, I am someone who likes to be on the bleeding edge, try new things, and I've always enjoyed staying up to date when and where possible. So that's largely where I'm coming from. Although, upgrading isn't necessarily always better for everyone, and we all have different preferences. I realize that as much as the next guy. My basic point isn't that you need to upgrade, or that you shouldn't use your own preferences in upgrading. Obviously, you should do what works for you at the moment, but you should be prepared to change if and when it becomes a necessity. For example, you've got a laptop running XP, it does everything you want it to do, so don't need to upgrade right now. However, lets say you have some serious hardware failure and that laptop dies. What will you do? Will you go on Ebay and buy a used laptop just to get another XP machine, or will you go to your favorite computer store and buy a new laptop with Win 7? The point being that change is inevitable. Yeah, there may not be a pressing need to upgrade right now, and you might not have to for several years. Sooner or later you'll probably have to buy a new laptop or desktop running Windows 7, Windows 8, or later on it to replace your older hardware and software. That's basically all I'm saying. As far as your opinion that desktops will stay and laptops will be a thing of the past in favor of hand-helds I personally disagree. One reason for that is that netbooks are very popular right now. Last year more netbooks were sold than desktops, and for good reason. They are smaller, lighter, more portible and more like the hand-held devices like tablet PCs I was talking about. Plus most laptops are as good as their desktop counterparts. For example, I got a Toshiba last October. Even though this isn't a high-end model it has a full sized keyboard, 17 inch display, DVD reader/writer, a duel core 2 GHZ 64-bit processor, 3 GB of ram, a 3d graphics card, etc. Basically, its specs are similar to the average desktop available at the same time I purchased my laptop. Plus the price on laptops have come way down and aren't any more than a desktop PC. So when I look at it I'm not at all sure the average consumer is willing to go out and buy a desktop PC when a laptop can do the same thing, costs about the same, and is smaller and easier to store. As you know I often do tech support on the side and what I've been seeing is mostly laptops for the last couple of years. Desktop sales have fallen here in the united states and I think the figures pretty much speak for themselves that desktops are more likely to be a thing of the past before laptops and netbooks. As a matter of fact I just helped a neighbor with her new laptop a couple of weeks ago. She got a new H.P. laptop and wireless printer and I had to help her get her printer working. As we were working I made a comment to the effect her new laptop was really light. She replied that she use to have one of those big desktops, it was too big for her apartment, so her and her husband decided to buy a small computer so she could put it away when she wasn't using it. She likes her laptop a lot better than the big desktop. Since my apartment is small, and I don't have room for a desktop either obviously size really does matter in certain cases. More and more people like this neighbor and myself are using laptops because we don't have to deal with a tower, big monitor, external keyboard, mouse, scanner, printer, etc all sitting on a desk taking up room. A laptop is very compact with the keyboard, mouse, and monitor all in one, and can be folded up and stored in a desk drawer when not being used. Like hand-helds laptops are more convenient than
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about win7. Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. We'll just have to see where it ends up and if these things actually happen or not. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Alright, but here is where your argument actually falls apart. If you want to talk about access on Windows 8 I can say access has actually improved. There are a number of areas where access has actually increased and not decreased in Windows, and is well worth noting. First, UI automation. In Windows 8 Microsoft has been deprecating a number of access technologies like MSAA in favor of UI Automation. Its a huge improvement over MSAA, is now a standard part of the Windows API, and any application designed with UI Automation in mind should be accessible without video intercept drivers, scripts, and any of the other crap screen readers have had to use to make prior versions of Windows applications accessible. Second, Windows Narrator has been drastically improved under Windows 8. It looks to me like Microsoft has basically copied Apple's Voiceover screen reader which is not a bad thing. Narrator is far more functional as a screen reader in Windows 8 than prior versions, and thanks to UI Automation any app using it will be accessible to Narrator out of the box. Third, MS Sapi 5.5 is an improvement over earlier versions. Windows 8 now has some new voices available and they blow away Mike, Mary, and Sam found in XP. Even Microsoft Anna which first appeared in Vista was an improvement. Fourth, Microsoft Speech Recognition. Its perhaps not as good as say Dragon Naturally Speaking, but from beta testing the new version the recognition engine is better than prior versions too. So both people with mobility and visual impairments can take advantage of voice input under Windows 8 if they want to. Finally, touchscreen technology is making huge access improvements for people with mobility impairments. All they have to do is point to the screen, and tap the icon they want a couple of times to open it up. This is often easier than using a mouse, trackball, touchpad, etc as a person can interact with Windows 8 with a single finger. Bottom line, if you want to make the case that more and more effort is required to gain equal access to Windows I don't think it really holds a lot of water. From what I've seen of Win 8 so far the opposite is true. Less effort is required because the access technology present is superior to anything else Microsoft has released to date. Cheers! On 3/13/2012 8:28 PM, dark wrote: Hi Dennis. the problem is this isn't about learning new things or preferring older systems, this is about access. As per my phd thesis, access = equal, or as close to equal as possible amounts of effort betwene groups with different biological limitations, and whatever way you cut the cookie, more and more effort is having to be expanded with the newer trends in Ui microsoft are implementing. It's rather like a building being rennivated and putting in escalators while wripping up the old ramps that paraplegics could use to enter. It is true that there is little to know prophet in access, however if we followed that line of thinking to it's ultimate conclusion, very little would be accessible. Access is an ethical matter and as such falls outside te of the basic tennits of capitalism, and this is why we can cryticise microsoft mainstream game companies etc, for following prophet only rather than access measures (indeed this is where Carl marx was exactly right in noting that the persuit of prophit is itself an amoral motivation, not an ethical one). plus I might add that saving money seems a pretty feeble excuse for the worlds richest coorporation which is paying most of it's manual workers in china and tyland a pittance. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Sure. Again, it comes down to personal preference. Sometimes the benefits to upgrading aren't always that obvious or seem all that important at the time. For example, when Windows 7 came out I really wondered myself if I should invest in the upgrade. After all, I had a Compaq that was barely two years old running Windows Vista, and for all intents and purposes Windows 7 is just an updated version of Vista. So I was thinking what's the benefit in upgrading to Windows 7? Well, as it turned out there were several things that convinced me to upgrade. One, was the fact that Microsoft overhalled the OS, removed a bunch of older code, and Windows 7 boots much faster than Vista. Two, Windows 7 was more stable before the service packs were released than Vista was. Three, Microsoft removed a lot of apps from the base install such as Windows Mail and made them available through Windows update. The advantage here is if I use Thunderbird I don't have Windows Mail hanging around on my drive taking up space when I don't use it. Four, Windows 7 comes preinstalled with .NET 4.0 which will handle most .NET apps out of the box without having to update or install .NET components on the side. Finally, can handle Microsoft's new UI Automation framework which will improve over all access to software as it becomes more widely used by screen readers and Windows applications. So as you can see at least in my own personal situation there were some pretty clear benefits to upgrading to Windows 7. Everyone agrees that Vista was a pretty poor version of Windows, was a bad release, and Windows 7 was designed and marketed to correct issues in Vista. However, even for an XP user yourself there probably are some benefits to you that aren't immediately obvious or that I've failed to mention because a lot has changed since XP was released. As far as hand-held devices goes I've not decided on one for myself personally. I've looked at an Apple iPad and while I don't mind the user interface I'd want to write accessible games for the unit and unfortunately Microsoft's iOS is proprietary to the max. I'd rather get a Droid phone with Ice Cream Sandwich on it so I could write games and apps for it in Java. At least Google isn't quite as anal about proprietary languages and tools as Apple. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 4:14 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. Well the upgreading part, I'll have to considder, but I think I would be very wary of upgrading simply! to upgrade, or simply because I had to, that's why i'd like some bennifits. I take your point about laptops, however I am still not convinced, for those who use desktop pcs as a general media system as indeed myself, many of my friends and my brother do, sinse that's something where you need! a larger unit that has a full sized keyboard, can connect to a really good quality monitor, set of 5.1 speakers etc. Btw, as for what I do when this laptop breaks, the answer is probably change for an Iphone, sinse while I still want windows on a desktop, there are lots of portable things I'd want an Ios device to do, and indeed several Ios things and games I'd want specifically. So I think i'd opt for either an Iphone or an Ipad rather than a laptop. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi tom. That makes sense, and if the choice was vista vs 7 i'd probably agree, however for me it's the compatibility issue that is the thing. For instance, While I've tried both windows live mail, microsoft outlook and thunderbird, nothing I thought was as good as outlook express. yes, they all came with more features, but seemed to take more navigation to access, for instance if I want a message to a contact in outlook express I just hit tab once from my inbox and bam, there is my contacts list as a dropdown. No mucking about with the address book or anything else. Does it do conferencing? multi user messages, threaded messages or the fancy stuff? no it doesn't, however when I write mail I don't particularly want any of that, I just want something that lets me read, reply, and write mails quickly and easily, and outlook express does that. Microsoft however have done their usual and in making the interface fancier for people with working eyeballs and adding billions of other functions, have overcomplicated the task of just writing, receiving and replying to E-mails. Of course, I'm fairly certain I could get used to using windows messenger or thunderbird, --- -but why should I? the new bennifits aren't things I'd use, and it'd just make what I do currently with outlook express more complex. The same goes for many other changes. It doesn't matter to me if windows 7 comes with the hooja flip new process speed 3000 upgrade of doom that makes it run 500 times faster and more securely if I can't actually play games, write mail and do the stuff I do on it. i think that's probably one of the key differences. For me, a windows is just a tool to do other stuff, I don't really care how well or badly the operating system works compared to other stuff around and on the markit, it just depends upon what it does for me personally. While from what you've described pinning to the taskbar sounds a good idea, and much of rht eannoyences with the interface can be bypassed, do I actually get to do anything new and fun with it? would it let me play more games, play music and audio brouse the net, watch films, do E-mail and write my thesis any better than I do at the second. The answer currently seems to be a distinct no, sinse most of the games that I play run equally well on windows xp, and indeed some like older 16 bit applications won't run on 7 at all without a virtual machine (though as I said apparently this is changing with windows 8). Word 2007 is actually easier to use than the upgraded versions, and winamp still works fine. About the only thing that would! make a difference is full 5.1 speaker support, and while I freely admit this would be a good thing, I don't know if it outways all the bad stuff as yet. Of course, this situation may change in the future. When lots of games come out that I can't run on xp, when a better mail client is available, perhaps when windows 8 actually has the 16 bit compatibility that will let me run fallthru, eamon etc, then is the point I'll considder upgrading. As for Ios, well sinse I haven't got into game developement yet, that's not as much a concern, and where as there aren't! many games that require windows 7, there is a lot of interesting stuff available for Ios that I haven't been able to play. I wouldn't want to go Ios totally, sinse there would be too many other things I couldn't do, my thesis for instance has to be written in ms word format sinse that's what the philosophy department use, but as long as I had a windows desktop, this wouldn't be an issue. I suppose this is ultimately a difference in thinking of computers. For me, a computer just takes the place of a lot of other devices, such as a games console (though I do still own my Snes and gamecube, I don't get new games on either), music system, typewriter and dvd player, and I'd only considder a computer to be good or bad relative to those functions, rather than having any intrinsic value in itself. Btw, a very amusing take on this are the new cybermen in Doctor who. Rather than the old cybermen being people who replaced first their bodies, then their brains with cybernetics for survival, now they are billed as human brains in steel boddies, created as the next upgrade, human 2.0, with bugs removed and far greater useability (to quote the actual episode rise of the cybermen). Indeed it was one of the producers stated aimes that the cybermen were almost a play off many people's desire to have the latest and best upgrade, as much as the function they filled in the old series of survival instinct gone mad. This is again why i like Dr. who, when it's done well it manages to make us take a look at ourselves in a really strange and twisted way. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
What I never got was the reason why screen readers had to use all the stuff like video intercept and got so little result in using it. If I can clone my graphics card virtually and the screen reader is controlling the clone, then why does a screen reader need external OCR to handle letters? Moreover, if I have access to the entire screen and all graphic information, shouldn't i (the program) be capable of reading nearly anything except for moving and continously morphing pictures out of the box, so that MS or others thechnically wouldn't need to create a second voiceOver for Windows? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
hi Michael. As to why wii, ps3 online etc don't have access to their os, it's the same reason as nintendo, capcom, square, blizard etc don't make accessible games, the almighty prophet margin. While governments and institutions will buy pcs and screen readers for Vi users, thus creating at least some degree of prophet in access for those groups, the same is not true of consoles, and companies like nintendo aren't interested in minorities or indeed ethics. What may happen in the future when the generation who grew up in the 1970's playing atari games start to hit their 50's and lose their vision could be another story though. As to why more software isn't cross platform, well once again it's developement environment and cash. Direct x for instance is windows only, and a developer would need to pretty much redesign a direct x application from scratch to have it work on mac or lynux. Though cross platform libraries exist, they're not usually as good as the ones for the native system. Then of course is apple's less than fair practice of making developers pay! for the privelidge of writing softwware for their os, --- -a practice which deffinately discourages cross compatibility, sinse why should a developer pay! to work on mac, when they can do the same on lynux and/or windows for free. This really isn't a good practice and though it earns apple some money now probably won't encourage people to write for the system in the future. I'm not sure about the differences betwene mobile Ios and Mac, though I assume there are some major ones, indeed I don't know if you need separate dev licences for each system (it wouldn't indeed surprise me if you did given some of apples other less than generous decisions), but I'm not sure on that one. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, I am not familiar with MAC OS or IOS. But what I last heard was that you need to run MAC OS to compile IOS apps. I am not sure if that's still the case, but that was what I last heard. And the question about operating system access is not only about blind users. Somewhere I once read that you could install and run a linux distribution on the Play Station 3, but this feature was removed and without serious hacking, you can't do it right now. Yes, you are probably right that the PS3 doesn't have DirectX. But since I am not a developer of console games, I do not know if the PS3 has their own directX or at least something like it. So, we don't know what you would officially require to develop console games appart from licenses of course. And what about the xbox 360? It is a device developed by Microsoft, but because I don't have it, I can't know how games are developed and what files they do use. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Email downtime
Hey folks, It would appear that there may be some downtime on my email address and, depending on your location, the website as well. This shouldn't last long, however. When the new site is back up, those of you who post scores to the River Raiders scoreboards will need to redownload River Raiders 1.3.2 in order to be able to post scores. If you need to email me about anything, please feel free to use my personal email (dam...@blunderfield.plus.com). Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BariBariGames.
ok I hope he releases an update soon. On 3/14/2012 1:48 AM, michael barnes wrote: Hey, Jason. Here is the website address for the BariBari. pcyam.com If you can find out how to update the games please let me know. Thanks! -- This is Jason known as BlindFury --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Need advice
Hi Everyone, I need some advice on which game controller to buy for my PC I am running windows 7. Thank you all for any help. Regards, Steve Cullen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Yes, to develop games and apps for iOS devices you need a Mac with XCode and the iOS SDK. That's why its so hard to develop for iOS because its closed to non-Apple users and developers. As far as the PS 3 its actually built using a modified Linux distribution. Thit uses a Linux kernel, but the user interface is customized and the graphics, audio, and input libraries are proprietary to the unit. It doesn't use DirectX, but Sony's own multimedia API. As far as the XBox it uses a version of DirectX which is similar to the version that ships with Vista and Win 7. On 3/14/12, Michael Gauler michael.gau...@gmx.de wrote: Hi Dark, I am not familiar with MAC OS or IOS. But what I last heard was that you need to run MAC OS to compile IOS apps. I am not sure if that's still the case, but that was what I last heard. And the question about operating system access is not only about blind users. Somewhere I once read that you could install and run a linux distribution on the Play Station 3, but this feature was removed and without serious hacking, you can't do it right now. Yes, you are probably right that the PS3 doesn't have DirectX. But since I am not a developer of console games, I do not know if the PS3 has their own directX or at least something like it. So, we don't know what you would officially require to develop console games appart from licenses of course. And what about the xbox 360? It is a device developed by Microsoft, but because I don't have it, I can't know how games are developed and what files they do use. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Email downtime
so should i get the re download now or will currnet version i have work? - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:25 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Email downtime Hey folks, It would appear that there may be some downtime on my email address and, depending on your location, the website as well. This shouldn't last long, however. When the new site is back up, those of you who post scores to the River Raiders scoreboards will need to redownload River Raiders 1.3.2 in order to be able to post scores. If you need to email me about anything, please feel free to use my personal email (dam...@blunderfield.plus.com). Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Email downtime
Hi Joseph, You can try and get the download, providing the website is up in your area. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: joseph weakland josephweakl...@att.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Email downtime so should i get the re download now or will currnet version i have work? - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:25 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Email downtime Hey folks, It would appear that there may be some downtime on my email address and, depending on your location, the website as well. This shouldn't last long, however. When the new site is back up, those of you who post scores to the River Raiders scoreboards will need to redownload River Raiders 1.3.2 in order to be able to post scores. If you need to email me about anything, please feel free to use my personal email (dam...@blunderfield.plus.com). Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Smile. Well, that's true enough. We do come at this entire issue from different perspectives,and makes sense when we look at the reasons why or how we use our computers. You tend to look at this situation strictly as a consumer, an end user, who only cares about playing his movies, writing your thesis, playing music, and some audio games. Which is perfectly valid since XP fulfills all of those needs for you, and as you pointed out Windows 7 won't bring anything really new to the table. So there isn't a pressing need to upgrade at this point. Believe it or not I do understand where you are coming from because even though I have Windows 7 for business purposes my personal OS of choice is Linux. The main reason is because I have Firefox for browsing the web, Thunderbird for handling e-mail, Pigeon for chatting on AIM and MSN, Totem for playing DVD movies, Rythmbox for playing my mp3s, Libre Office for word/Excel documents, etc. In other words other than a lack of audio games Linux provides all the necessities I need, and costs less for me to own and use. As a result if I were to compare Linux to Windows it offers me more benefits in the long run as an end user and software consumer. However, how I look at this issue of Windows 7 vs XP is from a software developer and business point of view. If I am going to remain in the technical support and software development field I absolutely must own and use the latest OS so I can serve my clients. As a result I tend to remain fairly up to date with software releases, do market research on what's coming in the future, and prepare for it in advance. Which means I'm always looking at technology from the long view rather than the short view. To give you an example since I know Windows 8 is supposed to be released later this year it only makes sense as a developer to find out what has changed, what I can do to make my software Windows 8 ready, so if someone runs out and buys it the day after release I know that my products are ready to run on the new OS. Unfortunately, as a developer sometimes preparing for a new OS or new technology breaks compatibility with older operating systems in existence. If I write a piece of software in VB 2010 using .NET 4.0 it will run on XP, Vista, Windows 7, and run on Windows 8 which comes with .NET 5.0. However, it won't work with Windows 98, Millennium, or 2000. As a developer it would require a major downgrade to .NET 1.1 in order to target those platforms which is one reason why software developers can't continue to support older software forever. Plus how much of a market is there for Windows 98/2000 software anyway? So in short while you are looking at this in terms of what can you do on Windows 7 you can't do on XP I'm looking at how many people are likely to buy new computers, upgrade to the latest technology, and tend to think strictly in terms of a developer or tech support specialist. That's why I tend to stay on top of technology.At least as far as Windows goes. With Linux I'm more like you preferring to stick with a long term support release simply because I don't want to grab the latest version every six months and don't mind using a version for two or three years unless there is something new such as KDE 4.8 which now has screen reader support and is going to be available for Ubuntu 12. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 7:06 AM, dark wrote: Hi tom. That makes sense, and if the choice was vista vs 7 i'd probably agree, however for me it's the compatibility issue that is the thing. For instance, While I've tried both windows live mail, microsoft outlook and thunderbird, nothing I thought was as good as outlook express. yes, they all came with more features, but seemed to take more navigation to access, for instance if I want a message to a contact in outlook express I just hit tab once from my inbox and bam, there is my contacts list as a dropdown. No mucking about with the address book or anything else. Does it do conferencing? multi user messages, threaded messages or the fancy stuff? no it doesn't, however when I write mail I don't particularly want any of that, I just want something that lets me read, reply, and write mails quickly and easily, and outlook express does that. Microsoft however have done their usual and in making the interface fancier for people with working eyeballs and adding billions of other functions, have overcomplicated the task of just writing, receiving and replying to E-mails. Of course, I'm fairly certain I could get used to using windows messenger or thunderbird, --- -but why should I? the new bennifits aren't things I'd use, and it'd just make what I do currently with outlook express more complex. The same goes for many other changes. It doesn't matter to me if windows 7 comes with the hooja flip new process speed 3000 upgrade of doom that makes it run 500 times faster and more securely if I
[Audyssey] audiogames.net is down again
Hi. Its been only a day since audiogames.net came up, was just about to look into the forums this morning like I usually do and got this error. Unable to connect to mysql database, access denyed, forum pasword error. Yesterday there was a problem somewhere, then it went to 404 then it came back. 1 day later its all off again. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
well it looks at least from the gwmicro win8 podcast that ms is intigrating all this internally for screen readers which in my view should have done already!! Msaa was ok but it only did ms spaciffic controls as far as I understand it. Sapi was speech, intercepters were needed so the readers could get data from the graphics card, text and other junk piped to them, though I don't know the full story. The mirror driver was to make that so it didn't mangle things when chains were broken. Ms is doing the right thing by intigrating this into the os. However, after getting reader manufacturers to use and or make multipul libraries, its just a stupid waste of time. Now we need to fix things so we can get access to the system, that should have been there in the first place. It will probably be easier to fix being only 1 set of libs now, but because we worked with several we have to port which is a real nucence. At 02:55 p.m. 14/03/2012 +0100, you wrote: What I never got was the reason why screen readers had to use all the stuff like video intercept and got so little result in using it. If I can clone my graphics card virtually and the screen reader is controlling the clone, then why does a screen reader need external OCR to handle letters? Moreover, if I have access to the entire screen and all graphic information, shouldn't i (the program) be capable of reading nearly anything except for moving and continously morphing pictures out of the box, so that MS or others thechnically wouldn't need to create a second voiceOver for Windows? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
I think there will always be a space for a desk computer, or at least a computer on a desk, or a portable laptop type of system with full keyboard of some description. Maybe the desktop will be on the wall and most of our stuff will be touch or voice like startrek but even in startrek they had desktop terminals of some description. So the concept of the desktop won't go away. It may look different. What gets me is why we didn't move to touch earlier. I mean shape drawing will be really good especially if we have feadback. Ofcause all blind will have to buy apple or android to be real successfull with the new market. Ms changes to much to be relyable. Not that I will move any time soon having spent to much cash on games, and other junk, but if i started again, I'd get a chunky expensive braille device and maybe skip to apple solely. Maybe emulate windows on a vm but sertainly I wouldn't have windows as a prime os. I can't afford to move now though. At 02:49 p.m. 14/03/2012 +0100, you wrote: If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Michael, Its really quite simple. Attempting to support more than one platform or technology requires lots of time, money, and isn't easy to do. Even though languages and technologies such as Java and Python have been developed to help aid in cross-platform development there is no one size fits all solution because there are just too many differences to make cross-platform development practical. For example, for quite a while now I've been looking into targeting Mac and Linux as well as Windows. Unfortunately, there are no common APIs exactly like DirectX. There is SDL, SFML, OpenAL, etc which are certainly cross-platform and could theoretically be used instead of DirectX. However, the downside is that most cross-platform solutions lack features found in a commercial API like DirectX and the game will suffer because of it. Here is a case in point. Let's assume I decided to write USA Raceway in C++, use SDL, andmake it cross-platform. Thanks to SDL and OpenAL I could port the game to Mac, Linux, and Windows, but there are some features you wouldn't get in the process. One disadvantage would be support for some gaming devices. SDL 1.2.13 does not support special devices like force feedback racing wheels. As a result a feature I could have with a game using DirectX wouldn't be possible using a cross-platform API like SDL. Another reason some games aren't ported to more than one platform is simply cost. In order to write games for gaming consoles like the Play Station, Wii, XBox, etc a company has to pay royalty fees for the use of the console as well as pay for proprietary development kits. This obviously gets expensive and not everyone, including mainstream game companies, can afford to do this for each and every game they develop. Finally, there is the issue of proprietary technologies that are simply incompatible with everything else. Apple is bad about this, because most of the software for Mac OS and iOS is written in a proprietary language called Object C. So if you write a game for an iOS device in Object C you can't just take the source and recompile it for Android. No, a developer has to completely rewrite the app from scratch which just isn't worth it. As to why the XBox or Play Station doesn't have a screen reader built in I think you already know the answer to that question. Its not financially in the companies interests to do it. Same could be said for microwaves, DVD players, and probably a thousand other things we own and use on a daily basis. We are too small a market to interest companies in improving accessibility of their products, and companies aren't in the habit of doing things like that for cherity. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 9:49 AM, Michael Gauler wrote: If the desktop computer is not the all in one package, why do I hear people saying that the IPhone or other mobile devices are the all in one package, when it is obviously not true? And, if consoles like the play station 3 are running their own operating system with internet access and such, then there would be the question why theese parts of their interfaces don't have their own build in accessibility features. And what I also don't get is, why developers, be they mainstream or audio game ones do limit themselves to one market segment. It is true that devices like the IPhone are growing in popularity even for blind users. And because of this we have some accessible games for the blind for such devices, like Papa Sangre. But What I don't get is, why there isn't a version of Papa Sangre for Mac OS X, which is like IOS and shares several components with it. Or there could be a version for Windows or Linux. And from a capitalistic point of view, it wouldn't be a bad idea to target several platforms together to gain maximum profit. That's why I never got why several PS2 and PS1 games like all God of War, Darkstalkers or Naruto games were never released for the PC. In the times the first titles of each series were released, there was no IPhone and computers (namely desktop computers) were still more like the all in one device and had a bigger market. It also doesn't explain, why severa l console games do have expansions or extra content available via some download service, while several old and new PC games don't have such features. And then there is the case of games like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light where we have a massive content difference between platforms... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Ok, let's think about this the other way around: Then if it is not in the companies interest to make DVD players or other devices accessible due to financial reasons, why does Windows have Narrator and Mac got VoiceOver included into the operating systems? If it is (theoretically) not a good idea because you won't make money with it? And while we are talking about market size. There are somewhere over six billion people on earth. How many of them are blind or or have other impairments? I only hear that our community is small but what is the actual size and do such statements about a small market include the world outside of the USA? I am not sure here, but most audio game developers are situated in the USA, correct? But no one seems to be asking if there are people outside of that region of the world, at least that's the way I see it. I am from Germany and regardless of how many developers my country has, even here are some people who have bought some audio games or have played the free ones. I have the unregistered version of BGT to play several free games created with it. I was there from the time of TopSpeed 1.1A up to the latest version of it. I also was there when the Alchemy version of Montezuma's revenge was first released. The point is, that we have an unknown number of people scattered around the world. And about speech technology and accessibility: If making devices accessible is not profitable, why does every major company developing TTS voices state that their products are used for embedded devices, automotive applications, phone call centers or for automatic teller machines? I went back to the town where I was born a few weeks ago. I found out that announcements of bus stops for public transport was changed to a German TTS voice instead of using the voices of several radio moderators and voice actors. Said TTS voice can be found in the program called Voice Reader. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Tom. this makes perfect sense, and indeed is also the reason why I have never investigated mac or lynux in further detail, simply because, while I know there are probably technical advantages to either os, those advantages don't matter a bit to me if they won't help me do what I do, part of which obviously includes a great many games. it's like the betamax vhs debate. Betamax was actually a more efficient tape system, less worn out, and technically clearer, however sinse fewer video companies secured betamax contracts, the system went down rapidly, however technically good it was. This is indeed another problem of competative capitalism, that the most prophitable and universal solution is the one that wins, not necessarily the best, but until there is another regulating standard on which to judge these things there's not a lot we can do. Less politically though, another point I've noticed is that many people who work routinely with computers have an intrinsic liking for the subject in themselves. For instance, a close friend of mine is a professional programm designer. When discussing his job, he stated that he gained satisfaction through the process of being given a task to write a program to fulfill and then going off and creatively writing one, irrispective of what that task was. For instance, he recently had to write a program to log and regulate all the pay slips and online reciets issued by a company, and track these to the employees taxes. To me, i can imagine nothing quite so dull, but for my friend, the fact that he! got to design the program to work with this information, calculate the numbers involve and display it securely and relevantly was the important thing, ie, it was the process he enjoyed. The same goes with game design. if (as I hope), in september of this year I write that text rpg I've always wanted to, for me the fun process will be the actual writing and designing and the fact that I'm creating a world and story for people to interact with. The programming will just bhe the process of making that thing happen, and as such I'll look around for a programming method that is easiest for me to use in doing that, rather than worry about a hole lot of programming concerns, such as for instance cross platform compatibility. yes, I want people to be able to play it, but sinse the process of writing the world and story is to me more interesting, I'd rather spend my time on creating something good in windows, than learning a lot of what is to me comparatively less interesting stuff to create something to run on mac or lynux. Of course, if the option I choose is something like Python (which seems likely given how easy python code looks to understand), it might come with cross compatibility anyway, but if not, I'm not going to worry about it. Selfish? just slightly, though I could also make a reasonable arguement that I'm simply focusing on the things I know! I can do, namely write convincing and interesting pros and come up with some balanced game mechanics, rather than the things I probably cannot such as memory management, worry about libraries, garbage checking and all the other weerd alchemical stuff that programmers need to do. in fact if I could just write in near to plane english I'd gladly do that, even if someone had to download something in order to play it. indeed I might just skip the programming altogether and carry on writing gamebooks with darkgrue, though inf airness there are matters of random description and combat rules that would need a little dice work behind the scenes which darkgrue couldn't handle, and the system I had in mind for a text rpg was rather more complex than just a basic gamebook. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Certainly I think UI Automation, the improved Sapi voices, improved speech recognition in the Windows 8 consumor beta are good things However, the new user interface is so radically different from XP, Vista, Windows 7, etc that a lot of blind Windows users, especially those who like XP, are going to absolutely hate Windows 8 because of the new interface even though Microsoft is working hard to provide equal access to the OS and its pretty accessible out of the box already. For example, the start menu as you know it is totally gone. Instead when you log into Windows 8 you land on a start menu with program groupes tiled in columns across the screen. This is perfectly fine for a mouse user who can point to the program group and click on it, but if you have to figure out what row and column a program is in it can be a bit of a pain access wise as there is no list view or tree view structure as in prior versions of Windows. When looking at files folders, etc in explorer they are also tiled the same way and its going to take blind users a while to get use to looking for things since they are arranged in a table like view rather than a vertical list. Plus a lot of things in Windows 8 just don't work the way they did in Win 7 and earlier. In XP if you press the context key you get a vertical list of menu options like Open, Save, Print, etc. Under Windows 8 if you press the context key you get a context screen with options tiled from left to right. Instead of using up and down arrow you have to scroll left and right with the left and right arrow keys. The first time I saw that it threw me for a loop, because I wasn't expecting things to change so radically. Finally, ribbons are a standard part of the Windows interface, and despite talk of Microsoft removing them I sincerely doubt it. Almost all the programs in Windows 8 have ribbons instead of menus. Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, Wordpad, Windows Mail, Windows Media player, you name it all have ribbons. If you hate ribbons then you aren't going to like Windows 8 at all from a user interface perspective. However, that said if you are interested in an overview of what's changed I highly recommend you listen to a demonstration done by GW Micro http://www.gwmicro.com at this years convention. I think it will give you and everyone an idea of what Windows 8 has in store for us both good and bad. The link to the podcast is right on the main page. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 4:20 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about win7. Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. We'll just have to see where it ends up and if these things actually happen or not. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi michael. firstly some stats and corrections. for your information while Usa games, gma, bsc, draconis, blind adrenalin and 7-128 are located in the usa, blastbay is based in sweedan, as was the old terraformers project, Vip gameszone is based in israil, audiogames.net is run from the netherlands, pontes games is run from romania, X site is run online but damien himself is in the Uk, Zero site is based in Italy, the old light tech interactive was a collaboration betwene one hungarian, one Iranian and one I believe czech developer, Nielsbauer who make smugglers are based in Germany, the recent Bari bari baseball and football games are bmade by a company in Japan, as is the developer of laser breakout, world of war, bockerano debuken etc. So while it is true there are many game developers in the Us, it's not true that most are based there, indeed neither are most of the audio games community (I'm english myself)l. As to percentages of population, at last count 2.6 percent of the total world population had low vision, and 0.6 percent are blind. However, of that 0.6 percent, only perhaps a fifth, so 0.13 percent will be under the age of 50, with most being 75 or older. this isn't to say older eople don't use electronics, but certainly most don't, in fact at a rough guess, I'd say that even in a modern country perhaps only 0.01 percent of the population will use computers or electronic devices, and of those not all will be gamers. When your dealing with big corporations who wreckon selling to at least ten percent of the total population if not more, then 0.01 percent doesn't cut the mustard unfortunately. Voices on bank machines, busses etc are also there to serve the percentage of the blind population who don't! use electronics, In fact would I'd say bennifit nearly all of that 0.06 percent, plus of course sighted members of the population who don't pay attention. As to why pcs and not games consoles etc, the answer is simple. Most blind people of working age or close to it (which actually means very few as I've said above), in modern countries are bought pcs by governmental institutions or charatieis for work. This is how companies like Freedom scientific, Dolphin and the people who make other screen readers make their money, by selling to institutions, also why the price of access tech is high, sinse while individuals can't usually afford it, institutions might be able to, and thus compensate for the comparatively few sales they'll get. Unfortunately, these are stats that can't be argued with, and being as most things in the world currently, especially to do with technology, are dictated by the almighty prophet margin there's not a lot that can be done. indeed, blind gamers are in a far worse position than other disabled groups, simply because most blind people are not of an age to play computer games, where as say motion impared gamers are of all ages. unfortunately, these are the facts and the numbers, and we're not in a world currenty where small numbers make a difference. Beware the Grue! dArk. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly
Hi tom. that all sounds pretty dire, I especially ahte the sound of the columnized views, but we'll see. Once again though this is the trend of having information all on screen rather than accessible through separate areas. i hope myself there will be the opportunity to put it into lists or some other change to stop it looking as stupid, and whoever thought of ribbons needs hanging on the end of one and punching for several days Imho. yes, I am biased I freely admit, but ribbons just annoy me, sinse they are so damn illogical. hopefully though sinse windows 7's lack of customizability in the interface was a major turn off microsoft will actually listen on this one and offer some alternatives, but we'll have to see. Otherwise I might be heading off to find bill gates with a very big hammer, though I suspect I'll have to wait in the kew, sinse I imagine lots of people are looking for bill gates with very big hammers :d. hay bill, like windows? maybe your head needs a new context window opening! let me pin this to your task bar! :d. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Certainly I think UI Automation, the improved Sapi voices, improved speech recognition in the Windows 8 consumor beta are good things However, the new user interface is so radically different from XP, Vista, Windows 7, etc that a lot of blind Windows users, especially those who like XP, are going to absolutely hate Windows 8 because of the new interface even though Microsoft is working hard to provide equal access to the OS and its pretty accessible out of the box already. For example, the start menu as you know it is totally gone. Instead when you log into Windows 8 you land on a start menu with program groupes tiled in columns across the screen. This is perfectly fine for a mouse user who can point to the program group and click on it, but if you have to figure out what row and column a program is in it can be a bit of a pain access wise as there is no list view or tree view structure as in prior versions of Windows. When looking at files folders, etc in explorer they are also tiled the same way and its going to take blind users a while to get use to looking for things since they are arranged in a table like view rather than a vertical list. Plus a lot of things in Windows 8 just don't work the way they did in Win 7 and earlier. In XP if you press the context key you get a vertical list of menu options like Open, Save, Print, etc. Under Windows 8 if you press the context key you get a context screen with options tiled from left to right. Instead of using up and down arrow you have to scroll left and right with the left and right arrow keys. The first time I saw that it threw me for a loop, because I wasn't expecting things to change so radically. Finally, ribbons are a standard part of the Windows interface, and despite talk of Microsoft removing them I sincerely doubt it. Almost all the programs in Windows 8 have ribbons instead of menus. Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, Wordpad, Windows Mail, Windows Media player, you name it all have ribbons. If you hate ribbons then you aren't going to like Windows 8 at all from a user interface perspective. However, that said if you are interested in an overview of what's changed I highly recommend you listen to a demonstration done by GW Micro http://www.gwmicro.com at this years convention. I think it will give you and everyone an idea of what Windows 8 has in store for us both good and bad. The link to the podcast is right on the main page. Cheers! On 3/14/2012 4:20 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. it might actually be then that microsoft are doing right in win8 what they missed in win7? sinse certainly I've not heard these things about win7. Whether however they continue with support for these changes and if they appear in none beta win 8 (I mean, I heard win7 was supposed to feature more of narrator), we'll see, though as I said this might well mean that I'll end up skipping from xp to win8 completely. We'll just have to see where it ends up and if these things actually happen or not. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] Need advice
Hey Steve. If you get any advice on which USB hand held unit that will work with the largest veriety of hand to ear games and of course the Three-D Velocity hand to ear flight simulator. Please pass it along this way. Ron Ron and current Leader Dog boz who states that a service dog beats a cane paws down any day of the week. -Original Message- From: steve cullen Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:11 PM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: [Audyssey] Need advice Hi Everyone, I need some advice on which game controller to buy for my PC I am running windows 7. Thank you all for any help. Regards, Steve Cullen --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
