Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
Hi Charles, Yes! Definitely! Some of the best brains in the world have worked years and years on chess engines. That is because a computer is so totally and completely mindless. All intelligence must be coded into the artificial intelligence of a game, chess engine or what ever. So that would be like coding in every thought that you have ever had for playing a game of chess. And it is the same thing for all coding of artificial intelligence. Of course allot of games are far less complicated than chess, but still... BFN Jim Once a king always a king but once a knights enough j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
Hi Charles, Well, the type of simple AI I described to Jim Kitchen wouldn't really be appropriate for a chess game. there are far too many factors involved to make it feasable to write the AI that way. There are however more complex types of AI out there which could and should be used in that situation. The only reason I didn't mention them before is because most of the people out there probably don't have the background to discuss fuzzy logic and other complex AI systems like that. However, even so Chess is a very complex game to play. it is even harder to program as it requires a lot of strategy and thinking ahead a few moves. That's why computers are almost written using a straight forward brute force attack because it is the least complex strategy to program. A human player can be a lot more cunning, daring, risky, etc where no computer Chess program ever quite matches human skill and cunning. It usually has the same motive of operation. If you can figure out its mode of operation, game plan, you can counter it pretty easily. Problem is most people don't know enough how computers think to actually beat the computer at its own game. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
well, how about you tell us how computers think? now that is a good one, and maybe we all could learn something. press to test Release to detonate - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game Hi Charles, Well, the type of simple AI I described to Jim Kitchen wouldn't really be appropriate for a chess game. there are far too many factors involved to make it feasable to write the AI that way. There are however more complex types of AI out there which could and should be used in that situation. The only reason I didn't mention them before is because most of the people out there probably don't have the background to discuss fuzzy logic and other complex AI systems like that. However, even so Chess is a very complex game to play. it is even harder to program as it requires a lot of strategy and thinking ahead a few moves. That's why computers are almost written using a straight forward brute force attack because it is the least complex strategy to program. A human player can be a lot more cunning, daring, risky, etc where no computer Chess program ever quite matches human skill and cunning. It usually has the same motive of operation. If you can figure out its mode of operation, game plan, you can counter it pretty easily. Problem is most people don't know enough how computers think to actually beat the computer at its own game. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
In the mid-1990's, IBM developed a chess program call Deep Blue. It beat the world champion chess player Garry Kasparov in a six game match with two winds for Deep Blue, one for Garry, and three draws. There was a bit of a cloud over the incident since Garry accused IBM of cheating and challenged Deep Blue to a rematch. IBM quickly refused and dismantled Deep Blue. Some people feel that this was an admittal of IBM of their cheating, but my personal feelings are that computers are not nearly as creative and flexible as humans, and the chess master would probably have beaten Deep Blue handily if they had met again. IBM had met its goals of creating a chess program which beat the best human chess player in the world, and it could only tarnish its victory by having a rematch. Regards, David Greenwood davidgreenw...@gmagames.com http://www.GMAGames.com - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM Subject: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game If I follow what you're saying, a chess program would be a real bear to write from scratch, wouldn't it, given all of the possibilities that come up when it is the program's turn to move? On the first move of the game, there are a possible 20 moves that can be made, but it very quickly becomes much, much more. The code to be written to get a program to play really well would be enormous, wouldn't it? - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] multiple player game Hi Jim, Oh, I guess I didn't really mean easy, but possible might have been a better word for it. From a design aspect it would be easy. It is programming it that is complicated/hard as you have to give all of the player semi-intelligent AI to know when to block, defend, steell the ball, whatever. To make realistic decisions based on certain situations in the game. As far as AI goes it can be a pretty advanced field of study in and of itself. I've read a few books on the subject, and there is still stuff I don't understand clearly. However, building a simple AI really just requires thinking about what possible situations the game character will face during your game, and creating a list of conditions with specific responses attached. For example, in STFC I had to build a realistic combat intelligent fleet of enemy ships. As a result it would constantly check the status of the ship, the enemy, and take a certain type of action based on statistical data. If the Federation ship was weak, and nearly beaten the enemy ship might not retreat in the hope of making a solid kill. However, if that ship was heavily damaged and the Federation ship was still in combat ready status run away and live to fight another day. Of course, it was a bit more complicated than that, but this is a simple example of taking one particular combat situation, and then performing some intelligent action based on the current situation. Of course, if you want to give certain ships or a commander a more unique AI then things get much trickier. However, all and all the basic principle applies to a game like basketball. You can give each computer driven player an AI with a list of rules how to play the game in what situation it should pass the ball, dribble it, try and make a shot, etc. I don't think anyone is very good at programming AI driven game players like this at first, but it is something you can learn with practice. Sometimes it just takes a little experimentation. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2787 - Release Date: 04/03/10 06:32:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
Also, the programmers modified the programming of Deep Blue as the series progressed. Deep Blue, in my opinion, would not have done as well if it had been entered into a tournament with several grand masters of the game, because it was specifically programmed to beat one player. Another grand master, although he may not have been as good at chess, would played unexpectedly according to the programming of Deep Blue, and probably would have won against the program. - Original Message - From: David Greenwood davidgreenw...@rogers.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 6:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game In the mid-1990's, IBM developed a chess program call Deep Blue. It beat the world champion chess player Garry Kasparov in a six game match with two winds for Deep Blue, one for Garry, and three draws. There was a bit of a cloud over the incident since Garry accused IBM of cheating and challenged Deep Blue to a rematch. IBM quickly refused and dismantled Deep Blue. Some people feel that this was an admittal of IBM of their cheating, but my personal feelings are that computers are not nearly as creative and flexible as humans, and the chess master would probably have beaten Deep Blue handily if they had met again. IBM had met its goals of creating a chess program which beat the best human chess player in the world, and it could only tarnish its victory by having a rematch. Regards, David Greenwood davidgreenw...@gmagames.com http://www.GMAGames.com - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM Subject: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game If I follow what you're saying, a chess program would be a real bear to write from scratch, wouldn't it, given all of the possibilities that come up when it is the program's turn to move? On the first move of the game, there are a possible 20 moves that can be made, but it very quickly becomes much, much more. The code to be written to get a program to play really well would be enormous, wouldn't it? - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] multiple player game Hi Jim, Oh, I guess I didn't really mean easy, but possible might have been a better word for it. From a design aspect it would be easy. It is programming it that is complicated/hard as you have to give all of the player semi-intelligent AI to know when to block, defend, steell the ball, whatever. To make realistic decisions based on certain situations in the game. As far as AI goes it can be a pretty advanced field of study in and of itself. I've read a few books on the subject, and there is still stuff I don't understand clearly. However, building a simple AI really just requires thinking about what possible situations the game character will face during your game, and creating a list of conditions with specific responses attached. For example, in STFC I had to build a realistic combat intelligent fleet of enemy ships. As a result it would constantly check the status of the ship, the enemy, and take a certain type of action based on statistical data. If the Federation ship was weak, and nearly beaten the enemy ship might not retreat in the hope of making a solid kill. However, if that ship was heavily damaged and the Federation ship was still in combat ready status run away and live to fight another day. Of course, it was a bit more complicated than that, but this is a simple example of taking one particular combat situation, and then performing some intelligent action based on the current situation. Of course, if you want to give certain ships or a commander a more unique AI then things get much trickier. However, all and all the basic principle applies to a game like basketball. You can give each computer driven player an AI with a list of rules how to play the game in what situation it should pass the ball, dribble it, try and make a shot, etc. I don't think anyone is very good at programming AI driven game players like this at first, but it is something you can learn with practice. Sometimes it just takes a little experimentation. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
Hi, Well, every game is different because the person who wrote it may have used different logic in designing the AI, but by and large it is as simple as doing the most logical move for the situation. If it is a game like Chess and it is worth losing a pon to capture a powerful piece like a queen you are going to take it. That would be the logical thing to do. So that is basically how computers work. It factors risks simply by what seams to be the best choice for the moment. If You can figure out what the computers best move would be at that current point in time you can try and factor it into your game plan. As I said before computer AI generally takes the bruit force method. they use swarm tactics, go straight for the most powerful pieces on the board, and tend to go for your throat early on. I remember one time playing Elite Chess and losing the game in a total of five moves. It wasn't that the computer was technically smarter than me, but I didn't see that particular brute force attack coming until I was basically screwed strategy wise. It had diverted my attention elsewhere on the board so it could go for my king quick and fast. Now, however, I have learned that little stunt I take better care to make sure my king either has legal maneuvering room or is well protected from a quick kill. You play against a computer AI long enough you begin to learn several of its dirty tricks. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
In that case, I have very little idea how my chess computer thinks, because I can only beat it on the first 7 of it's 64 skill levels. On the box, it was claimed to be able to beat 99.95 percent of tournament players. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:28 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game Hi Charles, Well, the type of simple AI I described to Jim Kitchen wouldn't really be appropriate for a chess game. there are far too many factors involved to make it feasable to write the AI that way. There are however more complex types of AI out there which could and should be used in that situation. The only reason I didn't mention them before is because most of the people out there probably don't have the background to discuss fuzzy logic and other complex AI systems like that. However, even so Chess is a very complex game to play. it is even harder to program as it requires a lot of strategy and thinking ahead a few moves. That's why computers are almost written using a straight forward brute force attack because it is the least complex strategy to program. A human player can be a lot more cunning, daring, risky, etc where no computer Chess program ever quite matches human skill and cunning. It usually has the same motive of operation. If you can figure out its mode of operation, game plan, you can counter it pretty easily. Problem is most people don't know enough how computers think to actually beat the computer at its own game. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
Hi, Oh, I bet. Computers aren't smart as people are, but they happen to have a life times worth of skill and experience playing chess stored in their AI. Often the are designed by world class Chess players, the strategies, anyway and that makes them an extremely formatable adversary. On 4/4/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: In that case, I have very little idea how my chess computer thinks, because I can only beat it on the first 7 of it's 64 skill levels. On the box, it was claimed to be able to beat 99.95 percent of tournament players. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
Hi David, I whole heartedly agree. Deep Blue was a computer Chess game designed specifically for that one player. Given enough time and matches Garry would have been able to determine the computers main mode of operation, its unique style of playing, and have defeated it soundly. Computers are limited to only what they have been programmed to do and after a while an experienced player will discover what style of playing it will try and can counter it. On 4/4/10, David Greenwood davidgreenw...@rogers.com wrote: In the mid-1990's, IBM developed a chess program call Deep Blue. It beat the world champion chess player Garry Kasparov in a six game match with two winds for Deep Blue, one for Garry, and three draws. There was a bit of a cloud over the incident since Garry accused IBM of cheating and challenged Deep Blue to a rematch. IBM quickly refused and dismantled Deep Blue. Some people feel that this was an admittal of IBM of their cheating, but my personal feelings are that computers are not nearly as creative and flexible as humans, and the chess master would probably have beaten Deep Blue handily if they had met again. IBM had met its goals of creating a chess program which beat the best human chess player in the world, and it could only tarnish its victory by having a rematch. Regards, David Greenwood davidgreenw...@gmagames.com http://www.GMAGames.com - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 12:10 AM Subject: [Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game If I follow what you're saying, a chess program would be a real bear to write from scratch, wouldn't it, given all of the possibilities that come up when it is the program's turn to move? On the first move of the game, there are a possible 20 moves that can be made, but it very quickly becomes much, much more. The code to be written to get a program to play really well would be enormous, wouldn't it? - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] multiple player game Hi Jim, Oh, I guess I didn't really mean easy, but possible might have been a better word for it. From a design aspect it would be easy. It is programming it that is complicated/hard as you have to give all of the player semi-intelligent AI to know when to block, defend, steell the ball, whatever. To make realistic decisions based on certain situations in the game. As far as AI goes it can be a pretty advanced field of study in and of itself. I've read a few books on the subject, and there is still stuff I don't understand clearly. However, building a simple AI really just requires thinking about what possible situations the game character will face during your game, and creating a list of conditions with specific responses attached. For example, in STFC I had to build a realistic combat intelligent fleet of enemy ships. As a result it would constantly check the status of the ship, the enemy, and take a certain type of action based on statistical data. If the Federation ship was weak, and nearly beaten the enemy ship might not retreat in the hope of making a solid kill. However, if that ship was heavily damaged and the Federation ship was still in combat ready status run away and live to fight another day. Of course, it was a bit more complicated than that, but this is a simple example of taking one particular combat situation, and then performing some intelligent action based on the current situation. Of course, if you want to give certain ships or a commander a more unique AI then things get much trickier. However, all and all the basic principle applies to a game like basketball. You can give each computer driven player an AI with a list of rules how to play the game in what situation it should pass the ball, dribble it, try and make a shot, etc. I don't think anyone is very good at programming AI driven game players like this at first, but it is something you can learn with practice. Sometimes it just takes a little experimentation. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2787 - Release Date: 04/03/10 06:32:00
[Audyssey] AI - Re: multiple player game
If I follow what you're saying, a chess program would be a real bear to write from scratch, wouldn't it, given all of the possibilities that come up when it is the program's turn to move? On the first move of the game, there are a possible 20 moves that can be made, but it very quickly becomes much, much more. The code to be written to get a program to play really well would be enormous, wouldn't it? - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] multiple player game Hi Jim, Oh, I guess I didn't really mean easy, but possible might have been a better word for it. From a design aspect it would be easy. It is programming it that is complicated/hard as you have to give all of the player semi-intelligent AI to know when to block, defend, steell the ball, whatever. To make realistic decisions based on certain situations in the game. As far as AI goes it can be a pretty advanced field of study in and of itself. I've read a few books on the subject, and there is still stuff I don't understand clearly. However, building a simple AI really just requires thinking about what possible situations the game character will face during your game, and creating a list of conditions with specific responses attached. For example, in STFC I had to build a realistic combat intelligent fleet of enemy ships. As a result it would constantly check the status of the ship, the enemy, and take a certain type of action based on statistical data. If the Federation ship was weak, and nearly beaten the enemy ship might not retreat in the hope of making a solid kill. However, if that ship was heavily damaged and the Federation ship was still in combat ready status run away and live to fight another day. Of course, it was a bit more complicated than that, but this is a simple example of taking one particular combat situation, and then performing some intelligent action based on the current situation. Of course, if you want to give certain ships or a commander a more unique AI then things get much trickier. However, all and all the basic principle applies to a game like basketball. You can give each computer driven player an AI with a list of rules how to play the game in what situation it should pass the ball, dribble it, try and make a shot, etc. I don't think anyone is very good at programming AI driven game players like this at first, but it is something you can learn with practice. Sometimes it just takes a little experimentation. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
