date:20120315

Hi.

if you go to
http://eamon-guild.blogspot.com/2012/03/eamon-deluxe-50-demo-adventure.html?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=feedutm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FVPAjM+%28Eamon+Adventurer%27s+Guild+Online%29
You'll find that the first of the new Eamon deluxe adventures has been
released as a demo.

This is a short hack through a dungeon fighting off some ogre smugglers (for a
full review by yours truly see the above link), and is just meant to show off
the system and give you an idea of what Eamon is like.
You'll need a 32 bit windows system such as xp for this, sinse the Eamon deluxe
is obviously a system written in basic, and thus uses the command window, so
won't run on 64 bit machines without using dosbox which is inaccessible to
screen readers. Unfortunately, though we've looked at several alternatives over
the course of testing, we haven't found a way around this problem as yet.

if however you can run it, it's certainly worth a play, and the demo adventure
should give some idea about what else is on offer (albeit that it's a fairly
simple outing compared to some Eamons).

Lots of screen reader compatibility has been added, and it's been tested with
hal, Jaws, window eyes and nvda, though you may need a review curser to read
the screen.

Get the demo adventure at
http://eamonag.org/programs/EamonDX/EamonDeluxe01SA_VI_Win32.exe

For those who don't know, Eamon was a system of textual rpgs mostly written in
the 1980's (though there are still games written in it to this day), for the
Apple Ii computers.

They were different from standard interactive fiction in that the parza was far
simpler and so lead to much less frustrating puzzles, with for instance one
command for getting items rather than several, though some Eamon
adventures certainly did! have their share of puzzles).

The two big differences betwene Eamon and standard interactive fiction systems
such as Zcode, are that Eamon features DD like stats and turn based combat,
with experience and weapon wielding, and the fact that you carry on the same
character through multiple adventures. Even the treasure you find in your
adventuring has a point, sinse after each adventure you sell your loot and
return to the main hall of the Eamon guild of Free adventurers, where you can
use your money to buy better weapons, armour, spells and stat upgrades for your
character, thus making even fairly short dungeon treasure grabbing runs (such
as the Demo adventure above), serve something more of a point.

I must admit I rather enjoy the system myself, and though some adventures are
dire, as indeed is the way with anything with multiple authors, some are
truly fantastic, and indeed I'll confess to even quite enjoying the dungeon
hacks! :D.

Hope people like this one and are looking forward to the full Eamon deluxe
release as much as I am..

Beware the Grue!

Dark.
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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly



Hi Shaun,

Well, I agree that something like UI Automation is way over do, but it 
doesn't do any good to spend time on should've, could've, or would'ive 
because the fact of the matter is the technology is here now and we 
should be glad its coming. Plus you must remember that these are 
different times, new laws, etc have came into effect since all that old 
stuff was created.


For example, MSAA was first introduced for Windows 95 in the mid 90's 
and became a standard feature of Windows 98. From what I've seen in 
programming accessibility was primarily bolted on to the OS as an after 
thought and screen reader developers had to come up with mirror drivers, 
scripts, etc to make up for the lack of accessibility in applications.


However, in 2001 the ADA was amended with section 508 which makes it 
mandatory that all software purchased by and used by the U.S. government 
must be accessible to people with physical disabilities. That law pretty 
much got the software industry moving on access and why Apple, 
Microsoft, and Linux developers have been devoting more and more time to 
improving the accessibility of their operating systems. Even operating 
systems such as FreeBSD are reasonably accessible with the Gnome desktop 
and Orca which wasn't the case up until a few years ago.


Bottom line, asking why Microsoft did or didn't do this or that earlier 
is a waist of time. I think the simplest answer is they were not 
interested in developing a better solution until Section 508 made it 
mandatory that they do so in order to have their software used by the 
U.S. government. Plus Microsoft is the leader in software for the PC, 
and it would be rather ironic if they fell behind Apple or an upstart 
like Linux in terms of accessibility, because both Apple's Cocoa and 
Linux's at-spi technology centralize accessibility through a single API 
which is what Microsoft is attempting to do now as well.


Cheers!


On 3/14/2012 5:46 PM, shaun everiss wrote:
well it looks at least from the gwmicro win8 podcast that ms is 
intigrating all this internally for screen readers which in my view 
should have done already!!
Msaa was ok but it only did ms spaciffic controls as far as I 
understand it.
Sapi was speech, intercepters were needed so the readers could get 
data from the graphics card, text and other junk piped to them, though 
I don't know the full story.
The mirror driver was to make that so it didn't mangle things when 
chains were broken.

Ms is doing the right thing by intigrating this into the os.
However, after getting reader manufacturers to use and or make 
multipul libraries, its just a stupid waste of time.
Now we need to fix things so we can get access to the system, that 
should have been there in the first place.
It will probably be easier to fix being only 1 set of libs now, but  
because we worked with several we have to port which is a real nucence.



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Re: [Audyssey] audiogames.net is down again

2012-03-15 Thread Richard (AudioGames.net)


Hi guys,

http://AudioGames.net is online again!

Best regards,

Richard  Sander



On 15-3-2012 11:10, Ryan Strunk wrote:

Hi Will,
I used to think the same thing until about a week ago. In  that time, I have
seen countless discussions on the AG forums and only a few over here. Swamp
updates, for example, are being posted and discussed over on the forum. It
might be worth giving it another look. There's quite a lot of really good
discussion taking place there.
All the best,
Ryan

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of william lomas
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:55 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audiogames.net is down again

nothing new to talk about anyways any news will come to the list


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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


Hi Thomas,
I have a question.
I also read a test report for the latest version of Windows 8. It was made 
by a sighted user and he called the new desktop and start menu Metro.
Windows 8 apparently has two versions of Internet Explorer and Metro has its 
own app store like Apple has.
But I also read that the classic desktop (whatever is left of it) can be 
launched as another app.
Two versions of IE are present, one included in Metro and another stand 
alone version like IE 8 or IE 9 currently are.
They do not share data with each other like settings, session data, chache 
and other data.

Now I'd like to know a few accessibility things.
Are we talking about build in screen reader support for Metro, or the 
classic desktop?
And what exactly is the new SAPI version and what kind of voices might come 
with it?
And is this somehow related to the separately released Microsoft Speech 
Platform (or whatever its correct name is)? 



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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly



Hi Michael,

Well, one of the major reasons why Windows comes with Narrator, Mac OS 
with Voiceover, and Linux with Orca has to do with Section 508. In 2001 
the U.S. American Disabilities Act, ADA, was amended so that all 
software purchased by or used by the U.S. government had to meet certain 
accessibility standards. Soon after George Bush Jr. signed Section 508 
into law several small to large software companies began developing 
access technologies in order to meet Section 508 compliance.


Although, Windows was the closest to meeting the requirements Microsoft 
began expanding the number of applications for Windows that would aid in 
accessibility. Out of that came Narrator, Microsoft Speech Recognition, 
and Microsoft Magnifier. Certainly Zoomtext, Jaws, or Dragon were far 
more advanced than what Microsoft was offering, but they had to include 
those features to the OS to meet Section 508 compliance.


Apple quickly followed suit with their own Section 508 program. They 
hired developers who worked on screen readers to build Voiceover, and 
completely updated Cocoa so that new apps using Cocoa would 
automatically be accessible out of the box. Even better by Mac OS 10.4 
you could even install the entire OS from start to finish using 
Voiceover which is still something you can't do with Windows, but 
because Apple took a different approach to accessibility, by 
centralizing it, Apple's accessibility has quickly caught up with 
Windows and even passed it in certain areas.


Besides the top two companies smaller companies like Sun got into the 
act as well. Sun hired a company from Germany to create a cross-platform 
screen reader for Solaris, Linux, and FreeBSD called /Gnopernicus. In 
addition they paid developers to write a totally new accessibility 
framework for Gnome which continues to this day. After a couple of years 
Gnopernicus was dropped in favor of a newer screen reader written in 
Python called Orca, and more and more open source developers have 
consistently attempted to spend time on making their apps Section 508 
compliant for Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris.


For example, KDE, which is another GUI for Linux, has been working on 
accessibility for the last couple of years. Right now they have created 
an API called qt-at-spi which acts as a bridge between any Qt 
application for KDE and at-spi, which in turn passes the information to 
Orca. All of this effort is do to Section 508 which passed 11 years ago, 
and has been driving accessibility of software ever since.


As far as TTS goes that's a separate issue. There are several 
non-accessibility related applications for TTS voices that has nothing 
to do with Section 508, screen readers, or the uses we tend to use them for.


For example, Nextup has a couple of apps for Windows such as News Aloud 
and Weather Aloud. The former reads the current news and the other 
speaks the current weather. While they are accessible to us they were 
not created or marketed for the blind community but for business men who 
want to just listen to the news or weather without having to sit down 
and read it. Speech output can be just as helpful to them as us in cases 
like that.


Another use of TTS is telephone applications. If a person calls into an 
automatic billing department they might be greeted by a program using a 
Sapi voice that tells them to press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish. 
Then, ask him/her for their billing number. It reads the current billing 
number and asks if it is correct etc. It might then ask him/her if they 
want to make a payment and so on. Basically, this is a technology that 
has evolved independent of us and just because you hear a TTS voice at 
your local teller machine doesn't always mean its there because of us. 
Its often being driven by mainstream marketing trends.


Which brings me to my final point. While there are definitely six 
billion people in the world and its expected to double over the next 
century the fact of the matter is blindness is less than one percent of 
the population. Then, when you divide that one percent up into groups 
like the elderly who often live in assisted living conditions to begin 
with and young men and women in our age range we end up with a very very 
small group who use computers, smart phones, DVD players, etc. When you 
face the facts you and I are are in a very small group who don't have 
the kind of numbers to make it financially viable for certain products 
to be made accessible.


Cheers!

On 3/14/2012 7:30 PM, Michael Gauler wrote:

Ok, let's think about this the other way around:
Then if it is not in the companies interest to make DVD players or 
other devices accessible due to financial reasons, why does Windows 
have Narrator and Mac got VoiceOver included into the operating systems?
If it is (theoretically) not a good idea because you won't make money 
with it?
And while we are talking about market size. There are somewhere over 
six billion people on earth. How many

[Audyssey] could dark please email me privately?

2012-03-15 Thread Stephen


Hey dark, can you please drop me a mail when you get this?
Thanks.


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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly

2012-03-15 Thread shaun everiss


I aggree tom.
On that note and before this topic gets old as it will do sooner or 
later, and going completely off topic for a second, I have a rather 
largeish concern with the metro system.
gwmicro was doing a podcast on windoweyes on win8 and it looked like 
one of the most unwieldy  interfaces in existance.
Sure its ok for the general public, but for us its really just a pain 
in the guts.

I can't see anything good coming of this.
I know its still a consumer preview, but still the new system is 
quite scary and complex.
While I did a search on how one would turn it off I found a blog 
post/ ms forum.

about 3 people liked it but the rest didn't.
If ms is making a bad choice, win8 could become another vista.
All the updates don't mean much for us.
I am only just getting to like 7 and now I hear support drops for it 
in 2015 of all things with end of life at 2020.
Aparently every os after this one will be metroised, which probably 
means windows9 will be better being the second adition, ribbons I can 
live with.

Upgrading the programs I can live with, but all this metro stuff.
I have heard descussions on how touchpads get in the way of users on here.
I have had to do tablet boxes, and had to resort to an external board 
as the pads just got in the way.
If we can actually use the pads like the iphone or android devices I 
wouldn't mind, however, I just hope classic shell or something comes 
out to put the old way in for us at least.


At 06:30 a.m. 15/03/2012 -0400, you wrote:


Hi Shaun,

Well, I agree that something like UI Automation is way over do, but 
it doesn't do any good to spend time on should've, could've, or 
would'ive because the fact of the matter is the technology is here 
now and we should be glad its coming. Plus you must remember that 
these are different times, new laws, etc have came into effect since 
all that old stuff was created.


For example, MSAA was first introduced for Windows 95 in the mid 
90's and became a standard feature of Windows 98. From what I've 
seen in programming accessibility was primarily bolted on to the OS 
as an after thought and screen reader developers had to come up with 
mirror drivers, scripts, etc to make up for the lack of 
accessibility in applications.


However, in 2001 the ADA was amended with section 508 which makes it 
mandatory that all software purchased by and used by the U.S. 
government must be accessible to people with physical disabilities. 
That law pretty much got the software industry moving on access and 
why Apple, Microsoft, and Linux developers have been devoting more 
and more time to improving the accessibility of their operating 
systems. Even operating systems such as FreeBSD are reasonably 
accessible with the Gnome desktop and Orca which wasn't the case up 
until a few years ago.


Bottom line, asking why Microsoft did or didn't do this or that 
earlier is a waist of time. I think the simplest answer is they were 
not interested in developing a better solution until Section 508 
made it mandatory that they do so in order to have their software 
used by the U.S. government. Plus Microsoft is the leader in 
software for the PC, and it would be rather ironic if they fell 
behind Apple or an upstart like Linux in terms of accessibility, 
because both Apple's Cocoa and Linux's at-spi technology centralize 
accessibility through a single API which is what Microsoft is 
attempting to do now as well.


Cheers!


On 3/14/2012 5:46 PM, shaun everiss wrote:
well it looks at least from the gwmicro win8 podcast that ms is 
intigrating all this internally for screen readers which in my view 
should have done already!!

Msaa was ok but it only did ms spaciffic controls as far as I understand it.
Sapi was speech, intercepters were needed so the readers could get 
data from the graphics card, text and other junk piped to them, 
though I don't know the full story.
The mirror driver was to make that so it didn't mangle things when 
chains were broken.

Ms is doing the right thing by intigrating this into the os.
However, after getting reader manufacturers to use and or make 
multipul libraries, its just a stupid waste of time.
Now we need to fix things so we can get access to the system, that 
should have been there in the first place.

It will probably be easier to fix being only 1 set of libs now, but
because we worked with several we have to port which is a real nucence.



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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


Hi Tom.

Interesting about section 5.08. As I've said before disabled access is 
always something I think the us government,  along with other countries 
like Scandinavia and the netherlands does far better than the Uk, sinse I've 
found nothing about software access in any of the British acts of parliament 
that deal with disability such as the disability discrimination act.


Indeed my mum has to have a reader provided by the health service sinse the 
system they employ,  despite being a department of the British 
government is completely inaccessible to screen readers (it was assessed by 
several experts and judged as such).


While provision exists for agencies to perchice equipment for disabled 
students, this is pretty much farmed out to councels and thus what any given 
student gets, how willing a local councel is to help with education etc can 
very much vary from county to county.


I will say as well though, this makes me a great deal more enthusiastic 
about the work i'm doing with my thesis, sinse one of the basic tennits I'm 
arguing is that disability is not a descrete catagory which a person is or 
is not, such as genda, nationality etc, but a relation betwene a person, 
his/her biological capacity, freedom of desires and environment which will 
affect everyone at some point, to a lesser or greater degree throughout 
life, and as such is a far more universal matter for a government to 
considder.


Of course, whether anyone takes any notice will be another matter entirely 
:D.


Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly



Hi Dark,

Grin. I think you hit the nail on the head so to speak. Your friend and 
I are quite a lot alike because that's actually one of the reasons why I 
became interested in programming. I get a satisfaction from being given 
a task, and then trying to create that piece of software from scratch 
and seeing the results of my work becoming reality.


Its for that reason I often create experimental programs for myself just 
to see if I can figure out how to make the computer do something, and it 
challenges me to learn new things along the way. Not only does it make 
me a better programmer there are often benefits to writing custom 
programs for my computer.


For example, writing SQL databases and then writing a GUI for it is 
about as boring as you can get. Yet if I create a database to keep track 
of my music collection it is both fun and satisfying because there is a 
purpose to the madness. Once I add all my music discs to the database I 
could look up a song like Magic Man by Heart and have a nice little 
report come back that it is on Dreamboat Annie (1976), Heart Greatest 
Hits Vol 1 (1994), These Dreams (1996), Heart Essentials (2004), etc. 
Figuring out how to create that program gives me as much satisfaction as 
being able to use it.


As you probably have guessed by now its not just programming that gets 
me excited. A lot of times beta testing new operating systems, software, 
etc is often like Christmas come early. I can't tell you why, but I 
really enjoy playing with new software and seeing what it can do.  Even 
if it doesn't offer me anything really new in terms of actual benefits I 
enjoy trying it out.


For example, Microsoft just released the Windows 8 consumer beta just a 
few days ago. I litterally downloaded it and installed it on a machine 
practically the minute it was released. I was as excited as a kid on 
Christmas morning to get it and try it out. To put NVDA on it, and 
explore the new user interface firsthand.


In terms of advantages I don't really see it as having a lot of 
advantages for me over Windows 7. About the only thing I found with 
Windows 8 that might be a reason to upgrade is startup and shutdown 
times are much much faster than Windows 7, and it seems to use less ram. 
Both are good things, but to quote your own reasons for not upgrading it 
won't help me play movies, listen to mp3s, check my e-mails, etc any 
better than I do on Windows 7. However, all of that is beside the point 
to me.


What has me excited is simply that Windows 8 is new. It has a radically 
new user interface, new hot keys to learn, and I guess I just like the 
ability to explore it. To wander around the new user interface finding 
out what has changed, what new apps are available, what new features 
there are, and see what I can do with it. Rather than thinking of it as 
a tool I guess I think of it more like a toy that gives me pleasure 
simply by playing around with it.


 As an end user I think the new start menu screen is terrible. They 
have all these program groups tiled in columns and rows across the 
screen which is not intuitive for a blind user at all. I'll be the first 
to say it sucks. However, its a trend thanks to smart phones, and if I 
am going to stay in the technical support and software development field 
its something I'll have to know how to use in order to keep up with my 
sighted peers. So its a learning experience as much as having fun 
playing around with the OS.


Of course, I have an advantage over many blind computer users and that 
is that Windows isn't my primary OS anyway. I use Linux for most of my 
day today computing so even if I get Windows 8 my personal interaction 
with it will probably be limited to games, software development, and/or 
using it to help people in my area troubleshoot problems with their new 
Windows 8 PCs. Regardless of what Microsoft does with the UI it won't 
impact me as much as someone who uses Windos exclusively because Windows 
is a secondary OS for me.


To be honest Windows Vista is what pushed me towards Linux in the first 
place. I had used Linux on a part time up until Vista came out, but 
thanks to changes in the UI, a product activation, etc I began using 
Linux full time and found out I liked it better. One reason is that 
Linux has a lot more customization than Windows that allows me to 
configure the OS to suit my needs and likes rather than being stuck with 
whatever interface Microsoft has decided to force upon their customers. 
It is things like Windos 8 where we have a totally visual interface with 
no ability to use a classic Windows interface that makes me more likely 
to use Linux as my primary OS.


For example, when I installed the Ubuntu 12 beta I was not happy with 
the latest version of Unity at all. Besides the broken accessibility 
which is being worked on right now Unity has a lot of stuff on the main 
screen with a launcher bar docked to one side of the screen and a menu 
bar running across the top

Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly



Hi Dark,

Lol! Sorry, so far no dice. The copy of the consumer beta of Windows 8 I 
have here does not let you customize the interface too much. Right now 
what you see is what you get.


Its kind of funny but if you listen to the GW Micro podcast of Windows 8 
and Window-Eyes someone in the audience asked if someone would be 
creating something like Classic Shell to revert Windows 8 back to the 
classic Windows look and feel. Of course, Dug and Jeremy didn't know, 
but GW Micro's position is that they are not going to do anything like 
that themselves as they feel that a blind user should get familiar with 
the new look and feel in order to be productive in the job market which 
I agree with.


In my opinion frankly speaking blind users have been spoiled for far too 
long. When Windows XP came out the Jaws tutorial Freedom Scientific told 
them to turn off the new start menu and revert everything back to the 
classic look and feel. That's fine and dandy as far as accessibility 
goes, but at the same time they are not learning to use the computer in 
the way a sighted user uses it, and have become use to having that 
feature available. Now, that Windows 8 is in beta and any hope of a 
classic user interface is pretty much non-existent its going to present 
blind users with a huge learning curve they can't overcome simply by 
turning off feature x they don't like.


That said, I don't think the situation is as dire as it could be. Yes, 
the new start menu sucks, but there are plenty of workarounds that don't 
even require using the start menu. I can press Windows+r, type Notepad, 
and it will pop up without having  to screw around with the start menu 
screen. I can also use the search screen, Windows+f, to act as another 
run command to find icons for programs and apps as well. I can go into 
the start menu and assign hot keys to all the icons I want to which 
means I can launch most programs without having to use the search 
screen, run command, or start menu. Finally, there is the option to pin 
apps to the taskbar so I don't even have to leave the desktop to get 
most stuff done. So its not as dire a situation as it could be. Its 
simply another case of finding new ways to do the same thing.


Cheers!

On 3/14/2012 8:15 PM, dark wrote:

Hi tom.

that all sounds pretty dire, I especially ahte the sound of the 
columnized views, but we'll see. Once again though this is the trend 
of having information all on screen rather than accessible through 
separate areas.


i hope myself there will be the opportunity to put it into lists or 
some other change to stop it looking as stupid,  and whoever 
thought of ribbons needs hanging on the end of one and punching for 
several days Imho.


yes, I am biased I freely admit, but ribbons just annoy me, sinse they 
are so damn illogical.


hopefully though sinse windows 7's lack of customizability in the 
interface was a major turn off microsoft will actually listen on this 
one and offer some alternatives, but we'll have to see. Otherwise I 
might be heading off to find bill gates with a very big hammer,  
though I suspect I'll have to wait in the kew, sinse I imagine lots of 
people are looking for bill gates with very big hammers :d.


hay bill, like windows?  maybe your head needs a new context 
window opening! let me pin this to your task bar! :d.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


Hi Tom.

that's bad news in my book. I'm afraid I strongly disagree on your statement 
of a blind user getting used to the way sighted users do things for purpose 
of accessibility simply on the basis of the deffinition of access.


It would be possible for a paraplegic to get out of his/her wheel chair and 
drag themselves up a flight of stairs on their hands. We don't however say 
Get used to doing this because it's what normally walking people do simply 
because we recognize that the amount of effort involved to the paraplegic in 
such an undertaking is wildly unreasonable.


I'd apply the same principle here. Accessibility is not just being able to 
do x or y, it's do with equal effort. For a sighted user, having a maximal 
range of information in the one location provides less effort sinse they can 
use the mouse to click it after a visual overview. This is not true for a 
blind user, and there is absolutely no reason why they should! from an 
access perspective get used to anything.


myself, sinse I regard computers simply as tools, I'd be in favour of any 
and all work arounds to make the blind users' use of a computer as easy as 
the sighted users, ie, requiring same amounts of effort.


if this involves redesigning the interface, turning off features x y z, so 
be it.


As to the job markit, well once again there is a principle from my thesis. 
Just as it would be unreasonable to expect a sighted based business to go 
over entirely to braille, it would be equally unreasonable to expect a blind 
employee to use software that took significantly more effort. This requires 
a level of compitance from both the blind user, and indeed the employer in 
coming to an understanding that best serves the needs of the blind user 
wcompromising ithout the employer.
This is why in my thesis I advocate an independent body be setup to oversee 
disability related debates in employment and leasure who have skills and 
knolidge of disability, but have no vested interest either way.


In the absense of such a body though, I'm inclined simply to say stick it, 
the effort needs to be equalized especially given the current impossibility 
of anyone disabled getting a job at all anyway.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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[Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon

Hi Steven. 

I'm replying to your message here to aide discussion. Firstly, I think you 
might have got this a little wrong. 

i'm not actually developing Eamon Deluxe, I've just helped with beta testing 
and writing reviews, and am a fan of the system. 

The developer is frank black, and you can reach him by the address in the blog. 
Eamon always has, and will continue to be free.

the eamon site can be found at http://www.eamonag.org/index.html and there is 
also an eamon deluxe page on audiogames.net, though bare in mind that is 
severely out of date, sinse the old version 4 of Eamon deluxe from 2005, while 
just about runnable has some compatibility issues and annoying habbits with 
screen readers and takes a little jiggering to get to work. Needless to say 
though, these have been utterly fixed in the new version, plus a lot of access 
features added that weren't there before. In Fact frank is doing a great job in 
terms of access, even going as far as describing Ascii graphics, as well as 
allowing full access to everything in text (previously there was a graphical 
main hall that had some advantages over the text one, but that is now fixed).

Lastly as to platforms, yes, it's a shame, but there is no way around it 
unfortunately sinse as I said the alternative is dosbox. If you use windows 7 
pro microsoft have produced a virtual xp machine that can run 16 bit 
applications, or you can use software such as vmplayer. I'm however not the 
person to ask about this question, which is indeed why i have moved this 
discussion onto the audeasy list, sinse there are more qualified people than me 
here who can talk about it. 

Hope this answers your question. 

All the best, 

Dark.
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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly

2012-03-15 Thread Dennis Towne

Dark,

While equal effort access might be a laudable ideal goal, don't
forget that all companies are subject to economies of scale, and that
blind users are a very small percentage.  It's going to cost less per
user to focus on the 99% non-blind users than the 1% blind, and
there's pretty much nothing that can be done about it. It's simply a
law of economics and production.

There are only two ways to fund higher proportional spending for
minority production:  subsidize it using majority production, or sell
the minority independently for a higher price.  Personally, I'm
willing to pay a bit more to support minority interfaces like screen
readers and command line access, largely because I use them; but like
everyone else, there is a limit on what I'm willing to pay, and for
most people that limit is substantially lower than mine.

Dennis Towne

Alter Aeon MUD
http://www.alteraeon.com

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 that's bad news in my book. I'm afraid I strongly disagree on your statement
 of a blind user getting used to the way sighted users do things for purpose
 of accessibility simply on the basis of the deffinition of access.

 It would be possible for a paraplegic to get out of his/her wheel chair and
 drag themselves up a flight of stairs on their hands. We don't however say
 Get used to doing this because it's what normally walking people do simply
 because we recognize that the amount of effort involved to the paraplegic in
 such an undertaking is wildly unreasonable.

 I'd apply the same principle here. Accessibility is not just being able to
 do x or y, it's do with equal effort. For a sighted user, having a maximal
 range of information in the one location provides less effort sinse they can
 use the mouse to click it after a visual overview. This is not true for a
 blind user, and there is absolutely no reason why they should! from an
 access perspective get used to anything.

 myself, sinse I regard computers simply as tools, I'd be in favour of any
 and all work arounds to make the blind users' use of a computer as easy as
 the sighted users, ie, requiring same amounts of effort.

 if this involves redesigning the interface, turning off features x y z, so
 be it.

 As to the job markit, well once again there is a principle from my thesis.
 Just as it would be unreasonable to expect a sighted based business to go
 over entirely to braille, it would be equally unreasonable to expect a blind
 employee to use software that took significantly more effort. This requires
 a level of compitance from both the blind user, and indeed the employer in
 coming to an understanding that best serves the needs of the blind user
 wcompromising ithout the employer.
 This is why in my thesis I advocate an independent body be setup to oversee
 disability related debates in employment and leasure who have skills and
 knolidge of disability, but have no vested interest either way.

 In the absense of such a body though, I'm inclined simply to say stick it,
 the effort needs to be equalized especially given the current impossibility
 of anyone disabled getting a job at all anyway.


 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


Hi Denis.

that makes distinct economic sense, however remember when we're dealing with 
disability we've gone beyond the realms of economics. As Tom said earlier, 
thanks to Us law, access has to be a component in governmental  systems.


So long as you have a belief that there is a principle that overrides 
prophit, the prophit arguement alone doesn't stand.  just as we have labour 
laws, and (in the Uk anyway), laws about national health  which are socially 
motivated rather than purely based on  capitalistic principles, so is the 
idea of effort and equal access,  indeed Tom illustrated this earlier 
with the us law requiring software access.


Of course this isn't to say the world should bend over backwards, indeed 
that's one of the main pricniples of my thesis, merely though that if you 
are going to considder disability it should be considdered not as a minority 
group access, but as access to a condition which will affect most people at 
some point to some degree.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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[Audyssey] no more riddles?

2012-03-15 Thread william lomas

hi all 

where are the riddles from draconis?
thought we'd have had a another  cryptic poem by now, rather than just coming 
out with it and telling us what they are going to release, no trailer, no demo, 
nothing 


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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly

This might be the case, but why should be the new interface be better than 
the old one?
I have seen a lot of XP computers where sighted people were working at a 
time before Windows 7 and not everyone of said sighted persons found the new 
start menu of XP better than the old one.
I also heard several sighted people say that ribbons were not their prefered 
way of using their Office products.
In not all cases, but a few, there was the opinion that functionality is 
more important than the question whether an element of an interface is 
located in the top left corner of the screen or the bottom right corner...
And because the mobile phone has a different interface, the computer needs 
it to, is not an argument for me.

And this is because a computer or even a netbook is not a mobile phone.
Yes, it is surely not bad if a new computer has multi Touch capable 
hardware, then why shouldn't be there software for said purpose.
But because there are touchscreens does not mean that all mouses or 
keyboards are going to get destroyed this moment.
I think it is not the best idea if we limit ourselves to just one method of 
doing things, when everyone should have the freedom to do things the way he 
or she likes best, as long, as it is not destroying your productivity (if we 
are not talking about end users)... 



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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


Ok and how about MAC OS?
Now you told us how you think about Windows and Linux.
But where is MAC OS placed in this picture?

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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


I have another question.
If TTS is good for us and other business people who want to get something 
read to them, why can't I buy loquendo voices in an online store (regardless 
of the price), or several other voices like the Scansoft products?
OK, nextup.com offers Scansoft voices for TextAloud and other programs, but 
even they do not have the new voices.
But I know that German IPhone users with IOS 5 and later have the voice Anna 
on their devices.

Even the non SAPI versions of RealSpeak Direct for JAWS doesn't have Anna.
And this is not only about this one voice.
There are new products and it seems that no one can buy them.
Whether you have the money to do it seems to be not the matter here, but 
even I as an end user or a member of a company can buy products from Adobe 
via an online shop.

If I would do so as an end user is not the question, but I could do so.
But the question remains why it is so difficult to get some TTS related 
products or information on them.


Back to accessibility, a few programs blind people use surely could also be 
used by people with other impairments.
What about all the other people with special requirements appart from the 
blind?
How are the numbers there? 



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Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly


I totally agree here.
Doing things differently does not necessarily mean we are outdated or behind 
whatever some company makes trent...
And I'd like to get a copy of this document you are working on as soon as it 
is finished.


- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Monopoly



Hi Tom.

that's bad news in my book. I'm afraid I strongly disagree on your 
statement of a blind user getting used to the way sighted users do things 
for purpose of accessibility simply on the basis of the deffinition of 
access.


It would be possible for a paraplegic to get out of his/her wheel chair 
and drag themselves up a flight of stairs on their hands. We don't however 
say Get used to doing this because it's what normally walking people do 
simply because we recognize that the amount of effort involved to the 
paraplegic in such an undertaking is wildly unreasonable.


I'd apply the same principle here. Accessibility is not just being able to 
do x or y, it's do with equal effort. For a sighted user, having a maximal 
range of information in the one location provides less effort sinse they 
can use the mouse to click it after a visual overview. This is not true 
for a blind user, and there is absolutely no reason why they should! from 
an access perspective get used to anything.


myself, sinse I regard computers simply as tools, I'd be in favour of any 
and all work arounds to make the blind users' use of a computer as easy as 
the sighted users, ie, requiring same amounts of effort.


if this involves redesigning the interface, turning off features x y z, so 
be it.


As to the job markit, well once again there is a principle from my thesis. 
Just as it would be unreasonable to expect a sighted based business to go 
over entirely to braille, it would be equally unreasonable to expect a 
blind employee to use software that took significantly more effort. This 
requires a level of compitance from both the blind user, and indeed the 
employer in coming to an understanding that best serves the needs of the 
blind user wcompromising ithout the employer.
This is why in my thesis I advocate an independent body be setup to 
oversee disability related debates in employment and leasure who have 
skills and knolidge of disability, but have no vested interest either way.


In the absense of such a body though, I'm inclined simply to say stick 
it, the effort needs to be equalized especially given the current 
impossibility of anyone disabled getting a job at all anyway.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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[Audyssey] Can this please stop? was Monopoly

2012-03-15 Thread Pitermach

I can't remember the moderator address, so I'm just throwing it out like 
this, but can this Monopoly thread get closed? It went wy OT and 
it's generating a lot of annoying traffic.


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Re: [Audyssey] Can this please stop? was Monopoly

2012-03-15 Thread Trouble


Try delete.

At 01:45 PM 3/15/2012, you wrote:
I can't remember the moderator address, so I'm just throwing it out 
like this, but can this Monopoly thread get closed? It went wy 
OT and it's generating a lot of annoying traffic.


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Re: [Audyssey] Can this please stop? was Monopoly

2012-03-15 Thread Shadow Dragon

I believe the point is that this list is for discussing games, not the 
features of various versions of an OS. Especially not under the topic name 
of Monopoly.

--
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:04 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Can this please stop? was Monopoly

Try delete.

At 01:45 PM 3/15/2012, you wrote:
I can't remember the moderator address, so I'm just throwing it out like 
this, but can this Monopoly thread get closed? It went wy OT and it's 
generating a lot of annoying traffic.

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Re: [Audyssey] Can this please stop? was Monopoly

2012-03-15 Thread Che


 Pitermach wrote:
 I can't remember the moderator address, so I'm just throwing it out like
 this, but can this Monopoly thread get closed? It went wy OT and
 it's generating a lot of annoying traffic.
 end quote

  Easy dude.
  Although you would have a legitimate complaint on most lists, it is 
important to keep in mind here that when it comes to list policy, such 
as OT discussion, changing subject lines to match the topic of 
discussion, cussing out other members of the list, etc. that we are all 
equal here, its just that some of us are more equal than others.



On 3/15/2012 12:45 PM, Pitermach wrote:

I can't remember the moderator address, so I'm just throwing it out like
this, but can this Monopoly thread get closed? It went wy OT and
it's generating a lot of annoying traffic.

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[Audyssey] Moderator Monopoly Closed



Hi all,

As per request I'm closing the Monopoly topic as we definitely have 
gotten way off topic with it. I'll just close by saying the debate has 
been interesting, but its now time to get back to talking about games 
instead of weather Windows x is better than Windows y etc.


Cheers!


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Re: [Audyssey] game concept - robot fighting side scroller

2012-03-15 Thread Ben

If you've heard of real steel, and transformers, this idea, as it stands,
might give you both.  Can't say too much right now but tell me what you
think: [this storyline is merely a paraphrasing of the full thing as it is
currently, although as with everything that follows, it is subject to
change]

You play a robot on the side of good, made so by the Japanese developer of
high-grade military hardware Kendo ukasawa. in 21 15, going through the
streets of futura city, you are tasked with recalibrating (killing) the
evil meks that have rebelled against their human masters.  The meks were
designed with the aim of making the humans live's easier, but that was only
true for 2 years.
Who is behind the transformation of these everyday robots?  Fight your way
through the war-torn streets of futura in this action-packed side scroller,
with quick-time events, a level designated as the active tutorial, and
possibly other features.

The health system is what will be the most confusing probably, to most
people.  You have 5 power cells, which reduce in halves - this is your
health.  It will reduce obviously if you take damage.  You can have as many
powe cells as you want collected on your way, but you can only plug a max of
4 in - because you can't lose all your power cells unless you get hit
through all 5.  Take the scenario. You have half a cell left, you plug 4 in,
you press the I key (if you guys ever get to play it you'll see why that key
is used), you'll have 4 and a half. And you can't have half power cells.
You'll have your fists, left/right, guns (2 of those) and your cannons
(which need to be recharged after a number of shots), and your guns aren't
limitless either - they must be reloaded.

Tell me what you think and I'll relay your thoughts to my fellow developer.
[note]: please keep this message and all subsequent replies - don't delete
them, as my friend isn't subscribed to this list.


I know what you said Thomas, but a project like this needs to see a reaction
before it goes ahead any further, in my opinion at least.
Thanks in advance for your help in this project, all of you.  All questions
are welcome, although you may not get a straight answer.
Ben.



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Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon

2012-03-15 Thread Stephen


Hi there.
I'm having trouble with the demo adventure, when I open the mail box 
and try to get the paper, it tells me I can't get it, so I tried 
reading it, but that didn't work either.
am I doing something wrong? I'm also using jaws 11 and I can't review 
the screen with the jaws cursor.


At 12:02 AM 3/16/2012, you wrote:

Hi Steven.

I'm replying to your message here to aide discussion. Firstly, I 
think you might have got this a little wrong.


i'm not actually developing Eamon Deluxe, I've just helped with beta 
testing and writing reviews, and am a fan of the system.


The developer is frank black, and you can reach him by the address 
in the blog. Eamon always has, and will continue to be free.


the eamon site can be found at http://www.eamonag.org/index.html and 
there is also an eamon deluxe page on audiogames.net, though bare in 
mind that is severely out of date, sinse the old version 4 of Eamon 
deluxe from 2005, while just about runnable has some compatibility 
issues and annoying habbits with screen readers and takes a little 
jiggering to get to work. Needless to say though, these have been 
utterly fixed in the new version, plus a lot of access features 
added that weren't there before. In Fact frank is doing a great job 
in terms of access, even going as far as describing Ascii graphics, 
as well as allowing full access to everything in text (previously 
there was a graphical main hall that had some advantages over the 
text one, but that is now fixed).


Lastly as to platforms, yes, it's a shame, but there is no way 
around it unfortunately sinse as I said the alternative is dosbox. 
If you use windows 7 pro microsoft have produced a virtual xp 
machine that can run 16 bit applications, or you can use software 
such as vmplayer. I'm however not the person to ask about this 
question, which is indeed why i have moved this discussion onto the 
audeasy list, sinse there are more qualified people than me here who 
can talk about it.


Hope this answers your question.

All the best,

Dark.
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Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon


Hi Steven.

The mailbox is a container, so You need to remove the paper from the mailbox 
first. Type remove peace of paper from mailbox or some short varient there 
of to get it, then you can read it. Same goes for other stuff in containers, 
use remove from.


As to Jaws, I know the game has been tested with jaws and works fine with 
the Jaws curser, but whether it does with jaws eleven or whether you need 
something specific for it I don't know not using Jaws myself, though there 
is going to be a compatibility section in the manual to offer advice on 
playing the game with various screen readers.


Beware the Grue!

DArk.
- Original Message - 
From: Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon



Hi there.
I'm having trouble with the demo adventure, when I open the mail box and 
try to get the paper, it tells me I can't get it, so I tried reading it, 
but that didn't work either.
am I doing something wrong? I'm also using jaws 11 and I can't review the 
screen with the jaws cursor.


At 12:02 AM 3/16/2012, you wrote:

Hi Steven.

I'm replying to your message here to aide discussion. Firstly, I think you 
might have got this a little wrong.


i'm not actually developing Eamon Deluxe, I've just helped with beta 
testing and writing reviews, and am a fan of the system.


The developer is frank black, and you can reach him by the address in the 
blog. Eamon always has, and will continue to be free.


the eamon site can be found at http://www.eamonag.org/index.html and there 
is also an eamon deluxe page on audiogames.net, though bare in mind that 
is severely out of date, sinse the old version 4 of Eamon deluxe from 
2005, while just about runnable has some compatibility issues and annoying 
habbits with screen readers and takes a little jiggering to get to work. 
Needless to say though, these have been utterly fixed in the new version, 
plus a lot of access features added that weren't there before. In Fact 
frank is doing a great job in terms of access, even going as far as 
describing Ascii graphics, as well as allowing full access to everything 
in text (previously there was a graphical main hall that had some 
advantages over the text one, but that is now fixed).


Lastly as to platforms, yes, it's a shame, but there is no way around it 
unfortunately sinse as I said the alternative is dosbox. If you use 
windows 7 pro microsoft have produced a virtual xp machine that can run 16 
bit applications, or you can use software such as vmplayer. I'm however 
not the person to ask about this question, which is indeed why i have 
moved this discussion onto the audeasy list, sinse there are more 
qualified people than me here who can talk about it.


Hope this answers your question.

All the best,

Dark.
---
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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon

2012-03-15 Thread Stephen

Also, this maybe a bit spoily, but Where do I find a light for the 
room below the closet?

Cheers.
At 09:26 AM 3/16/2012, you wrote:

Hi Steven.

The mailbox is a container, so You need to remove the paper from the 
mailbox first. Type remove peace of paper from mailbox or some short 
varient there of to get it, then you can read it. Same goes for 
other stuff in containers, use remove from.


As to Jaws, I know the game has been tested with jaws and works fine 
with the Jaws curser, but whether it does with jaws eleven or 
whether you need something specific for it I don't know not using 
Jaws myself, though there is going to be a compatibility section in 
the manual to offer advice on playing the game with various screen readers.


Beware the Grue!

DArk.
- Original Message - From: Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon



Hi there.
I'm having trouble with the demo adventure, when I open the mail 
box and try to get the paper, it tells me I can't get it, so I 
tried reading it, but that didn't work either.
am I doing something wrong? I'm also using jaws 11 and I can't 
review the screen with the jaws cursor.


At 12:02 AM 3/16/2012, you wrote:

Hi Steven.

I'm replying to your message here to aide discussion. Firstly, I 
think you might have got this a little wrong.


i'm not actually developing Eamon Deluxe, I've just helped with 
beta testing and writing reviews, and am a fan of the system.


The developer is frank black, and you can reach him by the address 
in the blog. Eamon always has, and will continue to be free.


the eamon site can be found at http://www.eamonag.org/index.html 
and there is also an eamon deluxe page on audiogames.net, though 
bare in mind that is severely out of date, sinse the old version 4 
of Eamon deluxe from 2005, while just about runnable has some 
compatibility issues and annoying habbits with screen readers and 
takes a little jiggering to get to work. Needless to say though, 
these have been utterly fixed in the new version, plus a lot of 
access features added that weren't there before. In Fact frank is 
doing a great job in terms of access, even going as far as 
describing Ascii graphics, as well as allowing full access to 
everything in text (previously there was a graphical main hall 
that had some advantages over the text one, but that is now fixed).


Lastly as to platforms, yes, it's a shame, but there is no way 
around it unfortunately sinse as I said the alternative is dosbox. 
If you use windows 7 pro microsoft have produced a virtual xp 
machine that can run 16 bit applications, or you can use software 
such as vmplayer. I'm however not the person to ask about this 
question, which is indeed why i have moved this discussion onto 
the audeasy list, sinse there are more qualified people than me 
here who can talk about it.


Hope this answers your question.

All the best,

Dark.
---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon

2012-03-15 Thread Shadow Dragon

Lantern is in the cabinet in the bathroom, same principle as the mailbox to 
get it.

--
From: Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 05:34 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon

Also, this maybe a bit spoily, but Where do I find a light for the room 
below the closet?

Cheers.
At 09:26 AM 3/16/2012, you wrote:

Hi Steven.

The mailbox is a container, so You need to remove the paper from the 
mailbox first. Type remove peace of paper from mailbox or some short 
varient there of to get it, then you can read it. Same goes for other 
stuff in containers, use remove from.

As to Jaws, I know the game has been tested with jaws and works fine with 
the Jaws curser, but whether it does with jaws eleven or whether you need 
something specific for it I don't know not using Jaws myself, though there 
is going to be a compatibility section in the manual to offer advice on 
playing the game with various screen readers.

Beware the Grue!

DArk.
- Original Message - From: Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reply to steven regarding Eamon

Hi there.
I'm having trouble with the demo adventure, when I open the mail box and 
try to get the paper, it tells me I can't get it, so I tried reading 
it, but that didn't work either.
am I doing something wrong? I'm also using jaws 11 and I can't review the 
screen with the jaws cursor.

At 12:02 AM 3/16/2012, you wrote:

Hi Steven.

I'm replying to your message here to aide discussion. Firstly, I think 
you might have got this a little wrong.

i'm not actually developing Eamon Deluxe, I've just helped with beta 
testing and writing reviews, and am a fan of the system.

The developer is frank black, and you can reach him by the address in 
the blog. Eamon always has, and will continue to be free.

the eamon site can be found at http://www.eamonag.org/index.html and 
there is also an eamon deluxe page on audiogames.net, though bare in 
mind that is severely out of date, sinse the old version 4 of Eamon 
deluxe from 2005, while just about runnable has some compatibility 
issues and annoying habbits with screen readers and takes a little 
jiggering to get to work. Needless to say though, these have been 
utterly fixed in the new version, plus a lot of access features added 
that weren't there before. In Fact frank is doing a great job in terms 
of access, even going as far as describing Ascii graphics, as well as 
allowing full access to everything in text (previously there was a 
graphical main hall that had some advantages over the text one, but that 
is now fixed).

Lastly as to platforms, yes, it's a shame, but there is no way around it 
unfortunately sinse as I said the alternative is dosbox. If you use 
windows 7 pro microsoft have produced a virtual xp machine that can run 
16 bit applications, or you can use software such as vmplayer. I'm 
however not the person to ask about this question, which is indeed why i 
have moved this discussion onto the audeasy list, sinse there are more 
qualified people than me here who can talk about it.

Hope this answers your question.

All the best,

Dark.
---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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Re: [Audyssey] swamp server down?

2012-03-15 Thread Dakotah Rickard

Yeah. My only trouble with connecting is the zombies in the safe zone.

On 3/14/12, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
 The 1.8 Swamp server has been running since yesterday and it has a handful
 of people on it right now.  I'm not sure why there was any trouble
 connecting.

 Can't connect with the regular
 version...something wacky with the server?


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Re: [Audyssey] swamp server down?

2012-03-15 Thread Ivan Cardenas

I'm having some trouble connecting. I use windows XP with direct x 8. But it 
says some other error that some other fie isn't registered.
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:14:40 -0400, Dakotah Rickard wrote:


Yeah. My only trouble with connecting is the zombies in the safe zone.

On 3/14/12, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
The 1.8 Swamp server has been running since yesterday and it has a handful
of people on it right now.  I'm not sure why there was any trouble
connecting.

Can't connect with the regular
version...something wacky with the server?


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Re: [Audyssey] no more riddles?