Re: [Gendergap] outreach and trianing resources...was... On Women's History Month
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Karen Sue Rolph karenro...@hotmail.com mailto:karenro...@hotmail.com wrote: I would make a go of this in the San Francisco Bay Area if we could get some traction going. I'll check in with a couple groups I know of, and see where they stand. Do we have an outreach tool kit ready that can be utilized, and if not, seems like an idea too? KS Rolph I put together a list of various outreach projects and training resources at our local outreach page that might be helpful. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_District_of_Columbia/Local_outreach I forgot to mention that I did my first wikipedia workshop a couple weeks ago, courtesy of the DC Wikipedia Chapter Library Lab. It was for members of a national group interested in civil liberties issues. It was 2/3 women and most newbies. Unfortunately, I spent too much time on theory and policy and too little on just getting them editing, and I can see that is the number one thing you have to do to build confidence. It's probably a good thing to get people to go through the tutorial before coming to a workshop, if at all possible. I did warn them about using a neutral sounding user name if they wanted to start an account, and most of them did. (And outline of the one day workshop is at link above, but I can see it needs exercises integrated throughout. ) I want to try it again, advertising on Craigslist, personal lists, etc, and especially trying to get retired people who already are computer savvy (there are lots in dc area) since they may have more time, not to mention expertise, etc. I'm thinking a good place to add training module subpages - with special mention of how to attract and keep women - is on the various local Meetup pages, assuming they like the idea. So that's that, for today. Carol ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Statistics about gender gap
On 2/2/2012 3:03 AM, Caroline Becker wrote: Don't be depress Sarah if female participation remains low. Even if Wikipedia was a perfect place without any bias, it would still be a project from the real world were lot of forces prevent women from editing : lower confidence in themselves, less free time, lower access to education. We can't change the world, juste make our small environnement a little less unjust. Caroline Particularly making it more acceptable to raise the issues of harassment, double standards and systematic bias in various dispute situations in terms of sex. So far I've been lucky that in the most negative situations others did raise it and call it out, if not on my sex, at least on political or admin vs. editor basis. When I brought up the sex bias issue I was ignored or ridiculed. Of course, it helps if women (acknowledged being so or not) spend more time commenting on ANI or Wikiquette or other places where civility and sometimes even sex bias issues raised. I've been on latter lately here and there; not on former in quite a while. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Outreach email...Women's History Month action plan wiki
On 2/4/2012 4:16 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: If you'd like to participate or develop an event, please visit the on English Wikipedia (translations encouraged!) Women's History Month page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiWomen%27s_History_Month At least once a week I feel l guilty for never updating and finalizing this draft of an outreach letter/email: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap/outreach_letters It never seems to occur to me when I'm in a rah rah mood. Anyway, this is a good time to get such a letter together and put up on that page. Or send examples of your own RAH RAH emails her (or to me) and I'll incorporate them there. Now that I've mea culpa'd I'll have to do something about it! Carol in dc ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] List of lists of women
On 2/11/2012 12:35 PM, Risker wrote: I do think the inclusion of the word notable is important here. The lists aren't just of women, they're of women who are notable enough to qualify for a Wikipedia article - which is a pretty low bar, as anyone who's ever tried to get some mess deleted already knows! Risker/Anne Unless it's a bio of someone enough editors want to get rid of for some prejudicial reasons, even if it's got lots of WP:RS. Then they claim, oh, it doesn't matter if the person has been quoted or referred to 10 times by the top newspapers in the country, the articles weren't ABOUT the person. So they aren't REALLY notable. That's why it would be nice to know that Admins are truly neutral and objective, but that's not always true either. ;-( CM in DC ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Help beef up Workshop_for_Women_in_Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Workshop_for_Women_in_Wikipedia After communicating with the originators of the page, I restructured it to be the Womens/Gender Gap part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Workshop (which is also a great self-teaching resources with links to other resources). It is suggesting workshop content and providing a list of related workshops (past and future), as well as a list of interested workshop leaders. I know there are a couple more workshops to add and just have to find and add material next time I work on the page. Feel free to add links to workshops you've had and/or workshop outlines you have created that address the issue. Note that we had two workshops in DC this year, and both were 2/3 women. While we did not get as explicitly into the gender gap issue (except around changing names and civility/dispute resolution issues), that is something I'd like to do more in depth in an all women's workshop in the future. Also, don't forget to check out the great new http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse project which I failed to notice had gotten going cause I got stuck on a subpage. Carol in dc ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Anyone submitting to Wikimania 2012?
http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions I assume Sue Gardner will be organizing something. Just a reminder if people have their own ideas as well. Cm in Dc ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Vote for your favorite women oriented wikimania panel
https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=womenbutton=title=Special%3ASearch This search shows which ones are about women. You can sign up to approve at the bottom. (You should be able to sign in with your wikipedia user name.) The deadline for submissions is Sunday, March 18 at 11:59 (San Francisco) Pacific Daylight Time (or 06:59 UTC on 19 March 2012). We seek submissions for presentations, workshops, panels, and other types of sessions. You can view the call for participation and make submissions here: https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions Here's category of all submissions so far: https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_submissions ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Better links for Gender at Wikimania and other stuff of interest
More workshops for women and everyone else can be found through either the complete list here https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_submissions (includes subcategories by topic and type) Also of interest to women in general: Search: Newbie in list above and see if you like those offerings https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editing_--_excessive_deletions https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikipedia_Dispute_Resolution (already has lots of votes but more the merrier) https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/How_to_motivate_older_people_to_become_active_Wikipedians%3F (lots of women in that category) https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikichicks_lunch (sign up) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Thoughts on training and gender and training generally
I was wondering if there is a web page I can link to with your comments for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Workshop_for_Women I can link to the newsletter but it only mentions the workshop was all women. Thanks. PS Love the Roo and other photos! On 4/4/2012 10:58 AM, Sarah Stierch wrote: . I know Carol Moore has been gathering documentation about training [1] and I think this would be a good addition for that! Sarah [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Workshop ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] World Naked Gardening Day
On 4/7/2012 10:35 AM, Bob Sponge wrote: welcome to censorpedia we fight probalbly sexism with our own middle-age-view on the world and oppress any non appreciated right for free expression than we told the critics idiots The photo is obviously more about a sexy and stimulating phyical stance taken by a naked female than about illustrating the article's point. Just like a picture emphasizing an erect penis would be. There's a difference between censorship and avoiding prurient WP:Undue. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
On 4/27/2012 3:45 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: I could have a go again, Carol. :) Gay porn is underrepresented in these articles. Andreas So if I was too implicit in my statement. As Andreas surmised, I meant re-do that photo to make it male on male. Or do a second one that's male on male. Go for it! As for female ejaculation since ejaculation is putting out sperm, I don't think women do it. Women obviously -- geez, I don't what you call it besides get wet. And maybe orgasms squeeze some of it out an orifice. But I don't think that's ejaculation. But I do now know I don't what the technical terms are or if there are any!! CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] sounds like a fun project... Re: Article Cumshot in English and German Wikipedia
On 5/2/2012 3:40 AM, Caroline Becker wrote: Working harder to have awesome pictures of artworks with naked men ? Caroline I did the bio of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Feinstein_%28sculptor%29 as part of a GLAM event. Her husband does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Currin does a lot of satirical paintings of nude and/or big bossomed women. Hmmm, maybe approach her to do a series on nude men... (Note: still have to get one of her pics on that article and add more about her to his. So many articles, so little time.) Searching nude male did find a bunch including by an artist who might be willing to do an original homosexual cum shot picture http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Searchlimit=500offset=0redirs=1profile=defaultsearch=nude+male ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Porn Bio RfC
For those who enjoy debating various angles of this topic. Controlling myself personally... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_%28people%29#rfc_3EDB4AE ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Permanently banning War on Women from Wikipedia
This article has problems I've mention on the talk page and WP:Wikiproject feminism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Women It's up for second deletion and proposals it be permanently banned. FYI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/War_on_Women_%282nd_nomination%29 ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Article for deletion Fanny Imlay
On 5/15/2012 12:47 PM, Nathan wrote: It was a tactical deletion request. I find that to be a pretty silly maneuver, personally, particularly as the nominators never do a very good job as devil's advocate. If jbmurray didn't think the article should be deleted, he should not have wasted his own time and that of other volunteers by nominating it. I've called for speedily archiving the whole silly incident from the article talk page. Geez. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Should there be a Wikipedia boycott over the lack of an image filter?
On 6/2/2012 12:15 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: I think the point is taken. I really have no desire to think about these things, especially every time I read this mailing list these days. -Sarah Really. My idea is, let the foundation use it's best judgement. I'm sure it will err on the liberal side... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Kill thread dead - Re: Larry Sanger's blog post: Should there be a Wikipedia boycott over the lack of an image filter?
Sounds good... go for it... On 6/3/2012 12:50 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: Hi everyone, I think we're on the Beating a dead horse again situation with this subject.[1] We will be going in circles about it - most of us seem to not care as much as others, and no one seems to be taking any direct action at this point. *I'm evening proposing this: someone can create a mailing list or an on-wiki space (even better!) to continue the discussion and those folks interested in examining pornography, sex related, whatnot images on Wikimedia projects can discuss it until their hearts content and think about ways to take action, etc.* After request from a few participants off list and my own personal interest, I'm declaring that we kill this thread and move on. Participants in this thread may now under go moderator regarding this specific thread. And what's more interesting, is that the majority of women who are participating in this conversation seem to be the one's with the least concern about it, go figure. Thanks everyone, Sarah [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] So what have you been working on lately article wise as a woman or about women?
One thing people can do is get on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Article_alerts List for articles being deleted, RfC'd etc. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Holly Graf
On 6/18/2012 9:29 AM, Nathan wrote: Seems like another 1E candidate. The over-emphasis on the controversy at the end of her career can be addressed by wiping out most of the detail, or by removing the article entirely (since the notability argument is somewhat fragile, and all the references about the subject relate to her dismissal). If the material is WP:Undue it can be reduced. If there is evidence that this was a case of males freaking at female orders, and there's WP:RS evidence of that, include it. If she was in fact abusive, we should not be trying to cover that up. Meanwhile an NPOV question mark tag on the article would be appropriate. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Surplus women and World War I
One comment on your draft, is that the langugage makes it a bit unclear for the average reader if/that the imbalance in England was because the males left the country and/or were killed in overseas wars. It's implied but not sufficiently explicit so some people might get confused. Also, the topic of surplus males is probably more timely today and I've thought about writing an article about it, so this certainly is relevant. More males are born in general since they aren't as hearty as females. Today with modern medicine more survive accident and disease, there are more males that females in the post 1960s generations and more single angry males mean more violence. It's worse in countries like China and India where they abort so many female fetuses. A number of things have been written on this topic, which I have filed someplace. The one that jumps out at me without much research is: Bare Branches: The Security Implications of Asia's Surplus Male Population Studies show married or co-habitating males have generally lower testosterone levels. I'm sure some of my research notes that times of surplus females tend to be times of peace and peace activism. 1920s saw great peace activity led by women. 1960s when there was a slight surplus of women ready to make love, peace was a big issue among all those happy males who didn't want to trade making love for making war. Today all those young guys worldwide want to do to deal with their frustrations is fight in sports riots or join the Black Bloc and break windows or overthrow their tyrants - or edit wikipedia? India and China may need a big land war to deal with their excess male problems. Iraq and Iran didn't have that problem after they sent millions of young men to die in 1980s Iraq-Iran land war. In fact, I'm sure if I researched I'd find that I'm not the only one to speculate that older males don't like all that poltiical and sexual competition from younger males so regularly they have to decrease the population by sending them off to foreign wars or colonies. So there's a method to the old warmonger male's madness So this is quite a big topic - though I'm not sure if it calls for one article called Surplus males or females or Surplus gender demographics or whatever the experts call the broader topic. Busy on a writing deadline so just don't have time to do the research right now. But I think I've thrown enough hints out there to help anyone go frolicking through the internet for lots of good WP:RS :-) CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen's Luncheon photo!
On 7/18/2012 7:41 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: Hi everyone, The photo is up from the WikiWomen's Luncheon. A bit of chaos - but, we're throwing W's for wiki of course =) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiWomen%27s_Lunch,_Wikimania_2012.jpg Thank you Pierre-Selim for taking the photo last minute =) Sarah Wow, you can just about read all of my tshirt (black on yellow) I survived five thousand years of patriarchal hierarchies. :-) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen's Luncheon photo!
I took a few shots during the lunch and while setting up photo which might put on wikicommons when get a chance; not sure if there's anyone who DIDN'T want self photographed so that's an issue. I didn't see a PINK don't photo me tag on anyone the whole event, but I'm sure some people had them. On 7/19/2012 4:40 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: I pulled it from his Flickr and did not see any different shots (only this one with different color tones). Perhaps this was the best of the bunch :-) Next year we need a woman photographer to attend who will volunteer her time to photograph! Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Wikimania Feedback Comment on luncheon
From http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Feedback#Other_meetups_and_meetings The Women's Luncheon on Saturday was something I was very much looking forward to, but it fell short of my expectations. I was enjoying bonding with the women at my table, asking the speakers about their presentations and hoping to form some more solid relationships with veteran and new Wikipedians alike. Being required to sit back quietly while 125+ women each stood up to introduce themselves felt like a waste of an opportunity to build a stronger female editing community. Knowing that the women are passionate about sharing was good, but wouldn't have been more to the purpose to encourage networking so all the women in attendance would be more inclined to stay active and recruit knowing there was a pool of support they could personally draw upon? [[User:Samarista|Samarista]] ([[User talk:Samarista|talk]]) 17 July 2012 (UTC) I personally liked the intros. Perhaps suggest a common topic or two people can discuss at tables? Or have a separate meetups - a couple at different times, perhaps with different themes. That might answer her concerns ? Note that in the feedback section two of us mentioned that annoucements of meetups needed to be better. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] uk chairman banned
I actually didn't read the first few posts because of the misspelling ;-) But when I read in the telegraph article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7883064/MPs-scandals-covered-up-on-Wikipedia.html *He's used multiple accounts *Very interested in bondage *Can be hostile to other users I began to wonder if he was the editor who was so hostile to me in early 2011 when someone brought me to WP:COIN on a completely different issue. I got so annoyed at the hounding and nitpicking defacto attacks from this editor whom I'd never run into before that I went to his contributions page to see what his POV was. I saw articles all of women bondage related and then asked on his talk page if abusing women was how he got his jollies - this got me blocked for the first time. There was a big WP:ANI brouhaha whose details I won't go into, but he did stop editing completely at that point. Which makes me wonder if it was a sock who felt too much attention had been brought to him. So if it IS the same individual, I certainly would understand the decision... Power corrupts, even in Wikipedia. So it's good to impeach the powerful from time to time to keep them all on their best behavior. (I'll have to check WP:ANI and see why my biggest nemesis Admin hasn't posted in two months, since we last had a policy dispute on an article, his last series of edits. Maybe I missed something. Some one else high profile who had a nice long block a few years back that did somewhat improve his behavior, though he started getting worse again lately.) CM: PS: Just about ready to put my Wikimania 2012 blog report on my blog, but it might be too POV to promote or advertise among wikipedians. Comments on a number of Wiki issues, and my own naughtiness here and there, so guess I should just let people chance upon it... :-) Only one issue that was important enough to bring to a policy talk page as a question, with one response so far. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource_talk:What_is_Wikisource%3F#.22WikisourceLeaks.22 Ah the things women and feminists could leak from the places of power they need leaking from... sigh... On 8/1/2012 9:53 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote: In my opinion, it's very much within the remit of this list to share anything that creates an environment that is not welcoming to new contributors. It doesn't need to be proven every time, as far as I'm concerned, that women are disproportionately affected, for a topic to be germane to this list. In this case, I consider it highly relevant information, considering that someone in a position of trust in our community (chair of the UK board) was found by English Wikipedia's highest authority: * (unanimously) to have violated important policies meant to protect the health of the community (failing to disclose information about his past accounts that he was required to disclose) * (by a slim majority) to have made unacceptable personal attacks * (unanimously) to have made ad hominem attacks to discredit others * to have attempted to deceive the community on more than one count * was banned (indefinitely, with opportunity for appeal starting in 1 year) from editing the encyclopedia I am aware that this person has made a number of high quality contributions to our site, and is well respected for much of his work, and do not discount that in any way. But the fact that he would continue in a position of trust, as chair of the Board of the UK Wikimedia chapter, in light of these findings, is distressing to me. It seems to me that he, and the board that is supporting him (I'm unclear whether it's the UK or WMF board) is choosing to place his personal status above the interests of the movement, and choosing to accept the consequences of a story like this, which in my view will surely tend to discourage people from participating in the Wikimedia movement. I don't carry any ill will toward this person, or wish to deny his efforts to continue to contribute to our projects. But it does distress me that he would continue to carry a Wikimedia business card, and represent our movement in a high-profile position of trust, in light of these findings. And I'm glad to have information about something like this posted on a list dedicated to the removal of barriers to participation. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com mailto:la...@fanhistory.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com mailto:risker...@gmail.com wrote: I have to be honest here, I'm not really certain what this thread has to do with the gender gap. It just feels more like gossip than anything, particularly as a significant portion of the reporting either (a) has nothing to do with the purported subject of the articles and/or (b) is inaccurate. Risker/Anne This. No one has provided any solid evidence of a
Re: [Gendergap] uk chairman band
On 8/2/2012 4:16 AM, Tom Morris wrote: You seem to have omitted the bit about how he was subject to a relentless campaign of vicious homophobic abuse. Or, indeed, ArbCom's complete failure to understand the importance of how such abuse and bullying occurs. See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:SilkTorkdiff=498427414oldid=498418358 Given the numerous instance of female editors I've spoken to who have been the subject of painful stalking incidents, and the ongoing risk to women and other minority groups on-wiki, I'd suggest ArbCom's failure to understand the nature of such harassment ought to be rather concerning... This is not to excuse what Fae has done. Two wrongs don't make a right. But let's not pretend that there's not another side to this sad tale. Your link did not include examples of actual harassment, though I'm sure they exist. It also still is not clear to me if he ONLY post gay bondage photos. And if went beyond being educational and usable for articles to just being prurient. Obviously, if every time he lashed out it was in response to harassment, that would be understandable - On the other hand, it also would show that wikipedia's ways of dealing with harassment were not too good. Now in the case I cited where I got blocked my asking an untoward question came after I was harassed as an antisemite for a couple weeks for trying to uphold policy on an Israel-Palestine related article. (A couple of obvious males who actually used bigoted sounding language were ignored!) So I lashed out inappropriately for asking about an individual's sexual attitudes towards women (I also linked my question to a women's group on offsite wikia which I naively thought was part of Wikipedia, but that was only a minor reason for the block). The important thing was that the initial block also was six months and the BrouHaHa was that I was unfairly harassed on the article leading to my losing it. After the protests, the block was reduced to a week. After there was such a long thread about it at ANI, the individuals who had been harassing me largely DID stop using those kinds of attacks and stuck to policy issues in future debates on that and other articles. So I do think a good airing of harassment issues on WP:Wikiquette or WP:ANI with the relevant parties can help. Of course, blocking harassers until they stop would help too. Anyway, always looking for double standards, I suspect that if I had reacted snottily to people every time I was harassed and hounded (more than a hundred death threats, FYI), I'd have been blocked for six months way before whatever it was that got User:Fae blocked. This of course probably related to the fact that he is a powerful male and (in the deep recesses of the minds of too many but *not* all males) I'm just some erzatz female... So to me that's the relevance to this list. Frankly I don't feel like reading the whole case right now, but here it is and porn only mentioned once, bondage not at all; civility and other rules the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/F%C3%A6 CM in DC ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Proposal to eliminate Wikiquette Assistance....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#Closing_Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance So then where does one go for those constant, insidious low level sexist comments that don't quite make it to WP:Ani level... CM in DC ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Reminder of Feminism Article Alerts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Article_alerts Right now there are 3 questionable AfD's and various nominations, etc. Plus a bunch of Good article nominees and other listings. Watch that page (or the relevant page in your language) and comment from time to time so we can make sure at least some of our 9 or 13 or whatever percent of wikiwomen gets represented. :-) CM in DC ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Reminder of Feminism Article Alerts
On 8/26/2012 9:58 AM, Thomas Morton wrote: Right now there are 3 questionable AfD's and various nominations, etc. Plus a bunch of Good article nominees and other listings. On a fostering friendly atmosphere note; characterising actions as questionable is not very nice. Tom Questionable is being nice. shitty sexist woman hating BS is what is not very nice - in a wikipedia context, anyway... :-) CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Reminder of Feminism Article Alerts
Questionable just means one has questions. So it's nice, unlike the other words which I was contrasting with questionable - not using to describe my specific questions on specific articles in that particular AfD list. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Article_alerts But frankly I do wonder why two people on this list nominate brand new articles related to women for deletion rather than improving them. HOWEVER -- the specifics should be discussed at the relevant AfD pages, so if this little dust up gets people there, goody goody!! :-) CM On 8/26/2012 11:01 AM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson wrote: Or that I nominated the B.a.B.e article for those reasons? Let's assume good faith here. On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com mailto:morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: On 26 August 2012 15:16, Carol Moore DC carolmoor...@verizon.net mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: On 8/26/2012 9:58 AM, Thomas Morton wrote: Right now there are 3 questionable AfD's and various nominations, etc. Plus a bunch of Good article nominees and other listings. On a fostering friendly atmosphere note; characterising actions as questionable is not very nice. Tom Questionable is being nice. shitty sexist woman hating BS is what is not very nice - in a wikipedia context, anyway... :-) CM Are you /seriously /implying I nominated the Tod Akin article for those reasons? Tom ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap -- Best regards, Cindy Ashley-Nelson Yes. /Her again./ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cindamuse ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Reminder of Feminism Article Alerts
On 8/26/2012 5:27 PM, Laura Hale wrote: I would personally be less bothered if it was women criticising women critically and harshly, but when it looks like man after man criticising women and no other female voices in the conversation, that bothers me because of the historical overtones regarding male voices in women's conversations. Sincerely, Laura Hale I don't know how it is now a days, but when I was growing up in the 1960s when a man said a woman was not nice (per Thomas Morton's original message that started the brouhaha) it meant she was a bitch/whore who deserved everything she got. What does it mean now, may I ask?? Anyway, it obviously annoyed me enough to explain what I thought was not nice. There are radical feminists out there still with harsh analysis of male behavior. Get used to it. But know one -male or female - should assume that any female who expresses a simple word - questionable - that you ASSUME is some extremely harsh indictment of you and your behavior needs to be chastised for daring to discomfort you. After all someone might hate Croatians; or someone might be Mr. Atkins staffer; or someone might be a right to lifer who doesn't want anyone pointing out that rape may lead to pregnancy. All of those would be QUESTIONABLE reasons. Why attack a woman with the not nice accusation without even asking why??? Fair question, eh?? CM On 8/26/2012 9:58 AM, Thomas Morton wrote: Right now there are 3 questionable AfD's and various nominations, etc. Plus a bunch of Good article nominees and other listings. On a fostering friendly atmosphere note; characterising actions as questionable is not very nice. Tom ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Reminder of Feminism Article Alerts
On 8/26/2012 5:33 PM, Emily Monroe wrote: It's probably better to avoid arguments of tone online, even if it's a tone you want to avoid yourself, because it's way too easy to misinterpret without tonal inflection, or other bits of non-verbal body language. You may have misinterpreted the tone you're trying to criticize, or they may have misinterpreted what you're trying to say. Excellent point. I said questionable without defining what I meant. He said not nice which I took as a personal slur. I made a joke about what I WOULD have said if I was NOT being nice. Someone others took that as my actual position which it was not. My actual was reaction was that PERHAPS those young guys who get their questionable jollies AfDing new articles like it was a video game had just shot down three articles of interest to women - none of which I named, merely shared the link to Feminist Wikiproject list. I didn't pay attention to who did the AfDs and didn't really think about that issue at all. That was as far as my analysis went in the 45 seconds it took me to send the message. Sorry for what obviously was an extreme criminal act in some people's eyes!! Women, make sure you take at least an hour before posting here to make sure there isn't a single word - and especially no JOKES - that anyone could possible misinterpret. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] My apologies
I hate to use physiological excuses, but...the reason I lost control was I had a bad head cold - plus doing strong coffee on top. So confused mental/emotional states on steroids dominated my writing... I value Wikipedia as a place where I HAVE to be diplomatic, since I do lose my temper like that a bit too much sometimes on various male dominated political lists where there's a lot of flaming, so I was unhappy about my own slip. I did write Mr. Morton and (sort of) apologize for starting in such a provocative joking tone because of his nice comment, instead of just making a civil comment/question...and then for my escalating from there. Two days on my apologies to the him and the list are even more sincere!! :-) Glad to see Laura misunderstood and wasn't asked to leave. Politically I understand worldwide problems with American Imperialism; Wikimedia-wise I just haven't been sufficiently on top of the intricacies of Wikimedia politics to understand all the issues so at least there I've been able to maintain my diplomacy - so far!! CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Explosion in listings... Re: Category: Female Wikipedians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_Wikipedians How did we go from a dozen to 1,700? Some other category got renamed and redirected? Or some bot added everyone who had one of the user boxes in that category?? Looked at a few and didn't see evidence someone manually added them all. FYI. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] RfC on civility enforcement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Civility_enforcement Again some people want to get rid of all civility enforcement. (The larger RfC came after RfC on the policy talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#rfc_A3FCF91 ) I haven't opined yet so there isn't anything about how incivility drives away women - an others. Feel free to jump in. How's this issue doing on other language wikis? Cm in DC ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Event: November 4, India : Wikipedia Women Workshop in Mumbai
Added it to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Workshop_for_Women Have to get back into the workshop head myself. Going to GLAM edit-a-thon Friday at least. On 10/10/2012 1:17 AM, Netha Hussain wrote: Dear all, It gives me pleasure to inform you that the first Wikipedia Women Workshop en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Women_Workshop_in_Mumbai is being organized in Mumbai, India on 4th November 2012. Women of any age, profession or educational background are invited to attend. The workshop is hosted by Wikimedia Mumbai community and the members of Wikimedia India Chapter http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Main_Page. The event will involve learning the basics of Wikimedia projects such as Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons. The event is aimed to increase the participation of women editors in Wikimedia projects. If you are interested in attending, please sign up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Women_Workshop_in_Mumbai#Participants Facebook page : https://www.facebook.com/events/439128679462671/ Thanks! -- Netha Hussain Student of Medicine and Surgery Govt. Medical College, Kozhikode Blogs : /nethahussain.blogspot.com http://nethahussain.blogspot.com swethaambari.wordpress.com http://swethaambari.wordpress.com/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Violentacrez and civility
Speaking of incivility, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Civility_enforcement is still going on... But we need more than words - we need a video. Maybe some of the influentials on board could get something like this going... As I just wrote there: I'm thinking one good funny video might help educate a lot of people. Have well nown and volunteer wikimedians/pedians READING out loud some of the absurd uncivil stuff that gets posted with appropriate expressions as if actually saying to a person -- and then calmly explain WHY that is harmful to the project and what the project is. In a funny but ''guilty-trippy'' way. The real psychopaths won't care but a number of people may be positively influenced. Carol in dc ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sexism in the online skeptic community
It's kind of sad she has to start to by making statements that could be calculated to tarnish one group of skeptics; it's as if to say, I can sling insults as good as the next guy, so don't sling them at me, sling them at those other guys. Weird... On 10/24/2012 11:49 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case wrote: In the parallel-issues department, here's an interesting narrative in /Slate/ by Rebecca Watson about the experiences of herself and other women with sexism offline and on in the skeptic/atheist community. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/10/sexism_in_the_skeptic_community_i_spoke_out_then_came_the_rape_threats.html Among other things, her WP article has been vandalized (I won't link to diffs ... anyone interested can look through the history). I daresay that it makes Reddit, even in the wake of the Violentacrez reporting, look not so bad. It has also drawn a lot more comments than the typical /Slate/ article. Daniel Case ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Civility enforcement RfC Questionnaire
On 10/30/2012 3:10 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: After you finish your questionnaire, don't forget to add... [[Category:Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement/Questions]] to the bottom. Otherwise, it will never be seen. Ryan Kaldari Thank you. I have to update mine because to my horror I see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance has been removed as an option. So what am I supposed to do about a guy who curses me in talk page, edit summaries (including for a mistake HE made) and even Dispute resolution?? Go to WP:ANI ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Civility enforcement RfC Questionnaire
On 10/30/2012 5:10 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote: So what am I supposed to do about a guy who curses me in talk page, edit summaries (including for a mistake HE made) and even Dispute resolution?? Go to WP:ANI Via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Incivility#Dealing_with_incivility I discovered that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Request_comment_on_user says: at least *two editors* must have contacted the user on the user's talk page, or the talk page(s) involved in the dispute, and tried but failed to resolve the problem.' I don't know if I misread it before or it changed because I always through two users had to bring the RfC together. This is a much lower bar and I already do have two users who've complained in two places each. So we'll see if s/he takes a hint from us complaining on user talk page... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Do the April Fool's Day jokes on English Wikipedia's front page deter women editors?
On 1/16/2013 2:23 AM, Risker wrote: Although I think it probably says something about the general mentality of a significant portion of our editorship what was being proposed for April Fool's day - sex, body parts, and swearing. Hmmm. Risker/Anne I stooped to that level and added the one I think is funniest to Jimbo's talk page and to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article April Fools discussion, writing at the latter: It took forever to get the actual article [[Circle jerk]] into Wikipedia - a female did it. So come on, it IS the funniest thing in all patriarchy, so you gotta do SOMETHING with it! (Assuming it hasn't been done multiple times already. I didn't mean to do a pun or whatever there at the end, by the way. But definitely setting the tone... Women CAN be bawdy, so let us at least have our fun too... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Do the April Fool's Day jokes on English Wikipedia's front page deter women editors?
On 1/17/2013 1:24 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 5:06 AM, Carol Moore DC carolmoor...@verizon.net mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: It took forever to get the actual article [[Circle jerk]] into Wikipedia - a female did it. Now, now, Carol. The record shows that /I/ created the circle jerk article, and I am not a female. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circle_jerk_(sexual_practice)action=history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circle_jerk_%28sexual_practice%29action=history However, I will concede that I created the article entirely in response to your helpful suggestion. So in a way, the credit is indeed all yours. :) Best, Andreas Sorry, got the impression way back when that handle was a female user... Anyway, I've had my fun and now am seriously inquiring on where to drop a draft of an April Fools article. Let's have a bunch of us do it. :-) CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] My second Wikipedia article: Sarah Stierch
On 1/20/2013 7:07 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Valerie Aurora vale...@adainitiative.org wrote: Can you believe Wikipedia Community Fellow and first Smithsonian Wikipedian-in-residence Sarah Stierch didn't have a Wikipedia biography until today? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Stierch It's only my second article creation, and I could use some help expanding it from a stub if you have some time to contribute! Much as I like Sarah, I don't think she qualifies as notable to the outside world per [[:WP:BIO]]. With a great deal of reluctance, I've started an AfD discussion, which I hope you will all chime in upon! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_Foundation Better get busy, I see at least 10 articles with fewer and less substantial refs. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] My second Wikipedia article: Sarah Stierch
Looks like we're keeping Sarah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sarah_Stierch Decision:Keep Hmmm, was he referring to MY yapping about other stuff? Oh, well ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Accidental Troll Policy - beyond gender gap
On 5/9/2013 4:35 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Bear in mind though that there is also a half-way house solution, whereby contributors would identify to the Foundation, but remain at liberty to use a pseudonymous user name. Identification might then be a prerequisite for certain community roles (as indeed it is today). Andreas That has been my thought as well, for particularly obstreperous editors and not just admins. Those who manage despite various warning and blocks to hang on and wreak their havoc editing and behavior wise. (Not to mention suspected registered sock puppets!) Once they realize that if they really start acting up they will have to have to be vetted as a real person, one honestly trying to contribute, they might think twice about whether they want to keep it up - whatever it is. Of course, you'd probably have to hire a couple people just to decide who gets to contact their user page and tell them call the office and why... As a person with a strong POV on some topics I tell others with strong POVs to try to get into the Wikipedia first head, which makes it easier to edit in light of policy and to step back when you know your POV is getting out of control. This sort of thing might help with that... carol in dc ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Long term abuse pages help where relevant...Accidental Troll Policy - beyond gender gap
OK, points taken below from Oliver Keyes about talking to trolls. But here's what (knock wood) got my well known long term abuse harasser (1000+ nasty and/or threatening emails, hundreds of reverts of edits to me during last 6 months) off my back without going to the cops --which I easily could have done, and still would do if I felt they were coming to my side of the continent with ill intent: *Got roll back which helped with all the danged reverts. *Updated and cleaned up his Long-term abuser page and made sure it was real clear what the various modus operandi were and how to deal with them since I'm not the only one he goes off on, just one of the worst recently *Put Wikimedia foundation email in a box at the top of project page so editors with similar problems knew one place to go right away *Added a bunch of info on the laws on cyber-harassment in HIS state and linked to the larger article from the abuse page *Every time he'd have a new spate of insulting me I'd go to some article relevant to arrest/prosecution/imprisonment/psychiatric evaluation for his various crimes and do some minor clean up, just so he'd get the message since then just got a few non-threatening nasty emails and a couple reverts; knock wood again that it keeps on working!! So starting long-term abuse pages for harassers and using them is a really good idea. CM On 5/9/2013 4:42 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote: This would involve incredible overhead on the Foundation's role. It also wouldn't provide any real protection for the individuals being harassed. Let's be clear here; there are really two types of harassment we should be concerned about. The first is, simply, illegal; where such harassment occurs, and a complaint to the police results, the WMF has procedures in place to provide (for example) IP addresses and other identifying information on receipt of a valid request from a court, and these can then percolate back through ISPs and such to identify the person responsible for the statements or actions. All very simple, all very well-handled. I'd argue our failing here is not in not having a mechanism for illegal harassment, but simply a greater societal issue; internet harassment is, while a crime, something with few benefits for the police to prosecute. We can't solve for that; we could reduce the barrier a bit by cutting out the middle man and being able to provide the police with the real-world identity of contributors, sure, but again, that's going to be a ton of work. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?
I second your proposal. On 5/13/2013 9:36 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2013-May/thread.html shows me that Topless image retention -don't give up has stretched on pretty long, and it seems to me like it might be better suited to onwiki discussion instead. Maybe the posters who are very interested in engaging in that conversation could hash this out on Commons or Meta and send this list an update when you have a solid proposal or conclusion? A few things I'd love to see more of on the gendergap list: sharing useful or inspiring blog posts and best practice documentation, promoting the School of Open's Wikipedia-editing course https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/05/10/school-of-open-offers-free-wikipedia-course/ and similar courses to women, and learning from case studies of Wikimedia projects (or other free culture/free software communities) that have improved gender equity. -Sumana __ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Breast cancer related information
Yes, I kept thinking the doctors who talked her into this are monsters. Then saw another article on that topic and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRCA1#Patents.2C_enforcement.2C_litigation.2C_and_controversy Good place to add a WP:RS on that topic. (And my first mammogram in 6 years came back good today. Yeah!) On 5/17/2013 2:50 AM, Jane Darnell wrote: Hmm, there seems to be much more behind this scary story about Jolie: http://www.naturalnews.com/040365_Angelina_Jolie_gene_patents_Supreme_Court_decision.html#ixzz2TVCldugn I didn't know you could patent a gene and reading between the lines, I think it's a tragedy for Jolie and her family. It's true that it's an impressive PR stunt though - check the stats pn the Jolie article and the BRCA1 article, which links to the lawsuit in the lead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_for_Molecular_Pathology_v._Myriad_Genetics 2013/5/15, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com: It would be nice if someone could make an analysis of the presence depth (treatment, protocol, prevention) of articles on breast cancer vs prostate cancer on Wiki(p/m)edia, as both are becoming about the same threat in terms of live expectancy after diagnosis. We could work from there on a to-do list. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Changing the Chelsea Manning article (and how women were shouted down)
There have been similar problems at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning Obviously there have been a number of comments that are obviously transphobic. However, there also have been repeated false charges of transphobia against those who cite good policy reasons for not changing the name. I personally oppose the change to Chelsea as premature for a number of reasons, FYI. And there are good reasons to question what happened at that article process wise (the policy reasons for and against the change are discussed ad nauseam at the talk page where editors are just trying to get it changed back to Bradley Manning, though I think that's morphed into a final discussion - hard to tell!! ): * an admin changed the title to Chelsea Manning with no discussion on the talk page, given it's a controversial move in such a high publicity figure *the admin then spoke to the press about it, wrote a blog entry with their opinion, tweeted about it, and got even more media publicity for their blog entry and/or tweets *I would not be surprised if a number of editors also alerted the media to her writings and actions in order to try to influence the outcome of a Wikipedia policy decision *I don't know how much off wiki canvassing there was, but I did start a list of wikiprojects alerted, so at least that aspect of WP:Canvass would be covered *an editor threatened anyone moving the title back would become a minor celebrity for a few days, a threat only to those whose actual names were used, which implied outing (there's a subsection of the larger ANI thread on that threat and related insults) Wonder if I'll get shouted down *here* yet again for expressing my opinions... sigh... CM On 8/24/2013 7:34 AM, Helga Hansen wrote: In the German Wikipedia a huge discussion has erupted over the question how to change the Wikipedia page for Chelsea Manning and it's another textbook example over how to drive women of Wikipedia. You can see the gory details here (in German of course): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Bradley_Manning I don't want to discuss this because it has already exhausted me to no end but it's another example of “How not to deal with women” and especially “How not to deal with transwomen” and it's important to understand the dynamics. After her statement on Today, one user went over the article, changing it from Bradley to Chelsea. When discussions about this started, two other users set up a section Namensänderung that addressed some of the criticism (confusion over names, before „Breanna“ was mentioned, how the support network has handled the name question) and provided sources. They did this on an etherpad and then moved the complete section into Wikipedia. By the way a modus operandi that I have heard from several women, to minimize chances of their work being deleted again. One admin locked the article title to Chelsea Manning. Some friends told me how happy they were to see the page presenting her in this way. Over the night, though, the discussion exploded. Changes were made by the minute, or rather, the article was reverted. Every try, to change something back or to reason with people was made impossible. To keep up, you would have had to be there, writing and fighting not only during the day but also the night. That is just not possible for anybody except students. Somebody mentioned that “commonly referred to names” were ok to use, so I tried to get people to acknowledge that the final article will influence how Manning is referred to in German speaking countries. No avail. Instead, the amount of transphobic statements was disgusting. People wanting to check her therapy progress, ID documents or in her pants. I cannot blame anybody who doesn't want to deal with this sort of violence. Every try to get people consider US laws and customs, which differ from much stricter German transgender laws and guidelines, was totally ignored. Also, guidelines by transgender organizations on how to write about transpeople were ignored. Somebody brought up the fact that Manning hat entered the military in a profession reserved for men at the time. Instead of asking an expert how to deal with it, it was solely used as an argument. It was all just opinions, instead of facts. While some people were still talking about knowledge, someone else would start a vote and then the majority decided. (In case you wonder: one way would be to keep referring to Chelsea as female while noting that the profession was reserved for men at the time and she entered presenting as male.) Of course, people who identified as women or worse, transwomen, were shouted down to no end and accused of being too emotional or having a political agenda. Wanting to be treated with respect and having human rights is indeed a political agenda but none to be insulted for. Also: one transwoman was not egligible to vote, her account was too “new”. She had shut down her old account,
Re: [Gendergap] WikiProject Feminism Open Tasks
Just cleaning up my email I realized I had missed this email about the New School/FemTechNet project. The announcement and links look well within Wiki policy parameters of recruiting more editors interested in a topic and in an area where the Wikimedia Foundation wants more recruits. It's a good model as opposed to some past ones that may have emphasized pov pushing and off wiki organizing and/or canvassing. There's more discussion on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Feminism#Subpage_and_joint_efforts.3F On 8/23/2013 12:07 PM, Adrianne Wadewitz wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Open_tasks The Wikistorming group at FemTechNet http://femtechnet.newschool.edu/wikistorming/ has created this open tasks list at WikiProject Feminism in part to try and centralize all of the lists of gender-related articles to develop. Please add your list here if you have developed one in the past or are developing one. Thanks! Adrianne -- Dr. Adrianne Wadewitz Mellon Digital Scholarship Fellow Center for Digital Learning + Research Occidental College http://www.oxy.edu/center-digital-learning-research/about https://sites.google.com/site/wadewitz/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Renewing gender gap conversations on meta
On 10/21/2013 2:41 AM, Sarah Granger wrote: I could see some women's organizations getting really angry once they understand the problem, and blaming men for sexism, when the problem, as all of us on this list know, is much more complex and not an outright issue like that. It may not be as much an issue in getting women initially involved and editing. It becomes a primary issue once they edit articles where they start to run into aggressive young males who act like Wikipedia is an intellectual video game where the goal is to win at all costs and frustrate/annoy/attack one's opponent. And see how much free speech fun you can have if you suspect the opponent is young and female. (Even we sexegenarians run into some of that.) Then a significant number - majority? super-majority? - run for the hills. Being a tough old bird it took me seven years to get sufficiently fed up, but I'm almost there and have removed myself from articles where battleground behavior by major and macho POV pushers exist. The encyclopedia may be more absurdly biased in a number of articles I worked on, including BLPs I used to try to keep NPOV, but enough is enough... A greater willingness to admit the problem of young male aggression/gamesmanship, and replacing it with collaboration, mentoring, wikilove -- and firmly dealing with abusers with lots of short blocks to rethink their behavior -- would help. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Seeking advice on how to talk to other lists about sex-issue.
On 10/25/2013 7:35 PM, Risker wrote: It's controversial because there are women who assumed a male role, but were definitely women in their personal life. So your definition there would be to assign them the male gender but the female sex. And I disagreewhat's being assigned there is sex, not gender. Risker It's also controversial because some feminists have questioned various aspects of this promotion of gender over sex and been highly abused for it, from name calling to shutting down speeches and conferences, to creating phony highly bigoted websites and letters and threats pretending to be written by radical feminists, to death threats as some of the articles below describe. I haven't studied enough to have a definitive opinion on it all myself, though I appreciate many radical feminist statements. Four good counterpunch articles http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/07/the-left-hand-of-darkness/ http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/11/these-are-not-the-radicals-youre-looking-for/ http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/21/55123/ The Emperor’s New Penis http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/08/02/sex-is-not-gender/ Best one of four Statement by radical feminists http://www.pandagon.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/GENDER-Statement.pdf?f9e4e1 Which has been authenticated here as not being a fake document put together by those who harass them: http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/authenticity-of-the-forbidden-discourse-the-silencing-of-feminist-critique-of-gender-statement-has-been-confirmed/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Community or arbitration sanctions regarding women; encouraging complaints about sexism
For various reasons I've been studying policies on both community and arbitration sanctions and looking at lists of such sanctions here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_sanctions#Active_sanctions Of particular interest is the recent arbitration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology which here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology#Discretionary_sanctions Specifies: Standard discretionary sanctions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions are authorized for all articles dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g., hebephilia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia). From past postings here we know that editors who obviously are or admit to being women have been insulted as women in very direct fashion; I'm sure it must still go on today. (Searching WP:ANI I see sexism has been brought up before and at least one openly sexist attack lead to a block; I'm sure more research would find a few more.) Anyway, I don't see any current issues that would lead to either a request for community sanctions or for arbitration sanctions where admins could levy a sanction on sexist behavior without someone having to go through WP:ANI. But it is something to keep in mind should there be a number of related issues at the same time. Of course, if all the women who leave after the first time they get insulted as women ''knew'' that they could go to ANI and at least get the editor warned, and if they were supported by people who told them about the process and how it works, there might be a lot more women around. At the very least it's something we can do as individuals if we see women editors attacked. Of course, the problem is most of the behavior is more the subtle double standard type where those perceived as women may get 30-40% more grief than editors assumed to be men, or have their edits reverted more and their concerns more generally ignored; however, the behaviors don't quite reach the level where they could support a complaint. I don't know if any of this is something that any of the Gender Gap projects would want to address in a more organized fashion. But had it in mind. Thanks. CM in DC ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Some attention for Wikimedia Sverige's gendergap project
On 1/31/2014 8:21 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson wrote: Hello, During the last week or so, Wikimedia Sverige's gendergap project https://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Projekt:Kvinnor_p%C3%A5_Wikipedia_2013 has had some media attention. We've had some interest from the media before, mainly before some of our editathons for women (which we've so far had about half a dozen, and will hold many more in the future). But now the interest has started to build, which is good. ... * Why don't women edit Wikipedia? http://wikimediasverige.wordpress.com/2013/12/16/varfor-skriver-inte-kvinnor-pa-wikipedia/ I'd love to see any English translations of any comments on how to deal with endemic cultural issues including male combativeness and harassment of, or double standards against, women. We do still discuss these issues in general terms on the relevant facebook page. Like Bring Back Wikiquette noticeboard. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] topless cheesecake on the en.wiki Main Page
On 5/14/2014 7:05 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: Great points Moriel - thanks for contributing to the discussion. When this mailing list was a hot bed of discussion a few years back a number of us tossed around the idea about media projects to tackle systemic bias. Such as photography competitions related to women, women subjects, whatever. I'm still sure exactly what that would comprise of yet, but, we did find it a fun idea to have something like Wiki Loves Women instead of Wiki Love Monuments - but again, no clue what that would entail and the name still needs tweaking :) Wiki respects women would get more satisfactory results. (smiley deleted) CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [LGBT] topless cheesecake on the en.wiki Main Page
an example of topless female cheesecake that IS art and appropriate is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Currin Google.images has lots more. I created the article about his wife artist/sculptor Rachel Feinstein. He's done a lot of these of his wife and maybe they help expand the juvenile pornographic mind a bit out of the purely masturbatory cheesecake... Thinking about my own horny days in the 1960 and 1970s, I know it was always easy to find some real live male to fantasize about, since I was never the one man type of woman. I know guys do too, but evidently not as much or successfully. Just never much got into cheesecake for that purpose... even photos of those movie and rock stars I had the hots for... But then I guess it's more the power and control and possession thing -- having the photo is half-way to having the woman as one's possession for whatever period one wants her... Yuk... just a thought... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Wikiproject: Editor Retention discussion on bullying
Thread: Translating effective methods of dealing with a culture of bullying from other organisations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention#Translating_effective_methods_of_dealing_with_a_culture_of_bullying_from_other_organisations Just been too busy with own Wikipedia contretemps to comment on this being a big reason women lose interest in editing. This might be a good en. wikipedia wikiproject for women looking to help more women stay; or for other language wikipedias to start. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/22/2014 7:04 PM, Delphine Ménard wrote: Hello, I found this: http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-730762/ an interesting read. Cheers, Delphine Thanks for this. I wasn't even aware of this site. There goes the theory that making editors register with their real names - or at least having to give them to admins should they act up obnoxiously - might solve the problem. Quote from articles: Sites that care can educate their admins and mods about online harassment, on detecting racist and sexist language, on conflict resolution and conflict diffusion, target and non-target status, and backhanded attacks (aka poisoning the well). That WOULD be a real good start. But women have to demand it. It's really all about the willingness to raise a fuss. Some small groupings in wikipeida do it and thereby not only have bad actions/words/ideas removed post haste, but enjoy undue tolerance for their making exaggerated or trumped up claims of bigotry in order to get their way in articles with only occasional consequences. However, hint that there's something called sexism involved in various situations and one is ignored, scorned for making false charges, or told they just can't handle it or are obnoxious and should just leave Wikipedia. A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!! Can you hear a pin dropping? CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] men on lists
On 6/23/2014 11:45 AM, Kathleen McCook wrote: There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues that affect them so, yes, men on a list like this can undermine its purpose. --Kathleen FYI, for those who want to read the early archives, they are linked from the bottom link - they start here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-February/date.html ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 12:56 PM, Katherine Casey wrote: Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the reddit i disagree sense, but in the slashdot/ meta filter comments downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted sense. It would obviously take a lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software *and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save tons of grief and derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review. There are definitely times it's needed. Maybe if there's some review process where a non-biased moderator can look and see if it's just an opinion that's unpopular or something really worth removing. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 11:26 AM, Risker wrote: I The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive email this user emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system called Flow to replace talk pages. Features that allow users to control who posts to their page, or even to let non-admin users remove individual threads or posts from their stream, aren't included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration. Sorry not to mention technological issues like you mention above. Mostly my own lack of knowledge. And they do sound helpful. It's annoying when you have to go to WP:ANI to get someone to stop posting their rants to your talk page despite 2 or 3 requests! (Guys do have to put up with it too, sometimes, of course.) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Improving on Wikiquette....A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 2:19 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott datzr...@alizeepathology.com mailto:datzr...@alizeepathology.com wrote: * bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense Would support wholeheartedly. The problem with Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance was the same as the problem with AN/I. As soon as someone took a complaint to Wikiquette_assistance people like Baseball Bugs would make fun of them for being too sensitive and it would basically turn into forum for criticizing the person who complained. No one at Wikiquette_assistance took complaints seriously, so it just ended up making things more frustrating for the person who was being harassed. If we want a forum that is more effective, I think we should adopt some of the ideas from the Teahouse. Primarily, by having the responders be vetted volunteers that are expected to provide a minimum level of helpfulness. All the peanut gallery responders who are just there for the lulz should be banned. Ryan Kaldari Would they also make friendly comments to worst offenders? That would help. What would it be called, something like Civility help? (Just a thought to get people thinking.) Or that might be a Gender Gap project function. Having a place where incidents of double standards can be discussed would be helpful also. As a particularly outspoken female who tends to edit in more controversial areas, I run into a lot of hostility, probably because male get more upset by females who disagree with them than males. So they take their frustrations out on us in various double standard ways that are very obvious to women, if not to men. (For example, exaggerating the incivility of comments, making exaggerated or fabricated charges of motives, reverting freely and criticizing harshly quality of edits, ignoring points in talk page discussions.) I've been grateful over time when a couple individuals recognized and pointed out such double standards being applied to me. It helps when one is going through one of one's I'm quiting this site phases. So having a place where such double standards can be discussed would be helpful and encourage women to edit in economics, politics, current events, and other areas too many males consider male bastions. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Threads on various issues...A cautionary tale
On 6/23/2014 1:49 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote: Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we've actually made any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there can never be enough of I think. *This latest one has delved more than past ones into some of the issues; I think the issues are pretty much known by most women who've been around the wikis a bit, it's solutions that are needed. Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to. *Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/23/2014 3:17 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote: Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to. *Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis... I'm not very familiar with the process of starting Wikiprojects, but I imagine the biggest barrier to entry to this would be finding someone for each language. I imagine that this would work something like the ambassador program, at least on the smaller Wikipedias. This is to say on Wikipedias where the project is too small to really have someone who can handle the Wikiproject we would find a volunteer on Meta who speaks that language and would have them generally just keep an eye on things. Each of these Wikiprojects should have a noticeboard of some sort that folks having issues can post to that the ambassador type would keep an eye on. Does this all sound reasonable? Thank you, Derric Atzrott First, of course, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gender_Studies which even has a Mind_the_Gap_Award And of course there is a Wikiproject Feminism. And I'm sure other languages have such projects. Would it want to take on subpages that dealt with women's issues with harassment, insults, double standards and the stickier problems that bother women? Of course, I remember when something with such a goal was proposed way back in 2011 on this list there were concerns about it giving women specifial privileges or something. I forget. People created the Tea House instead. But some relevant subgroup of Wikiproject Gender Studies or Feminism, like anything else, some women hopefully have to spearhead it and maintain it. I'm too burned out myself. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] men on lists
On 6/24/2014 4:02 PM, Kevin Gorman wrote: If there is a problematic situation that the list moderators have missed (which are currently me, Sue Gardner - who tends to be busy enough to not be an active moderator, and Liz Kent,) I would encourage anyone concerned about it to bring it to our direct attention by emailing one of us individually, or by emailing gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org, which will email all three of us. If you are interested in becoming a moderator, I'd also invite you to email us - unfortunately, since Cynthia passed, we're down one moderator from where we normally are. I do encourage another woman to volunteer who can encourage women to speak out and not let guys get out of line as in 2012ish period. I'm a bit too ... too... myself, so best I merely post : - ) CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/25/2014 11:50 PM, Sarah wrote: We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active. Sarah Thanks, Sarah. The first links to Meta. I completely forgot about the Gender Bias task force which I signed on to but evidently unwatched during some period of frustration. Of course, the task force only focuses on working on articles, not behavior problems women editors need help with. Re: issue of discussing content vs. behavior issues off wikipedias, I just remembered a recent ANI where a female editor complained that a male editor was criticizing her harshly on a few off-wiki sites for problematic content in her science-related edits. While he was judged insensitive, he wasn't sanctioned and such off wiki criticism was supported. One editor wrote that Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or elsewhere, is not harassment. and If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so. Should behavior toward women be considered as part of editors' work?? For more details on this case see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment (Also see the resulting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_review/Cwmhiraeth about the complaining female editor and another editor's complaint about it being a show trial at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive838#Wikipedia:Editor_review.2FCwmhiraeth ) Perhaps the female editor was judged too assertive in looking for DYKs and Good articles, while didn't fact checking/referencing carefully enough. Not stereotypically female behavior? However, questioning behavior too aggressively off wikipedia evidently remains a no no. I was once blocked for a week for asking an editor whether his overwhelming history of editing in articles about bondage of females was related to his obvious and annoying harassment of me on a noticeboard, after which I mentioned the issue on the Wikia Feminism page which I thought was a part of Wikipedia (duh). The latter evidently was the bigger no no. These are the kind of stories we used to tell here but don't any more. Where can we?? Is Wikipedia ready for women discussing how to deal with specific issues involving bad male editor behavior on or off wikipedia. Would a concerted effort by women to get the community to OK that work? Of course, a concerted effort to just consciousness raise on the issues generally would be great. There is a facebook group where occasionally something specific is mentioned. And going straight to ANI with problems you aren't sure about is difficult; even going to ANI with real problems and real diffs can be fruitless, especially if you are up against people who just make stuff up and don't even provide diffs. Perhaps the Gender Gap task force at least could allow links to actual ongoing ANIs/Editor Reviews/Arbitrations/noticeboards/etc. One thing that I could not find searching en.Wikipedia is an Essay called something like KEEPING WOMEN ON WIKIPEDIA that would deal explicitly with the problems women face and the various solutions, going though the list of Dispute resolution options, Wikiprojects and other support efforts, including at Meta. Also include some of the points mentioned in the Geek Feminism article linked by Valerie: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Statement_of_purpose:_communities_including_men Of course, we would need some admins willing to quickly ban disruptive (probably male) editors from editing that essay. Such an essay could be linked to a number of relevant projects and help pages and copied to all the languages. Thoughts? CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Moderation and the future of Gendergap-L
Re: the below, yes, i was blocked in a situation I thought was biased compared to other blocks I've seen. (I didn't mention that originally it was a six month block but the community of mostly guys thought that was grossly unfair and it was reduced to two weeks.) However, in general wikipedia is not half as bad as the Men's rights site you mentioned. And in Wikipedia there are Community Sanctions on too much conflict in men's rights areas. In fact we just had some problems with an individual with that bias and he was reminded of the sanctions and was stopped. In general women tend to avoid a lot of issues in the larger world because we don't like conflict. And that's understandable given that when guys do it with each other its considered a team sport. But when women jump in the middle, even if they know the rules (which we don't always), they usually are going to be given a harder time, expected to work harder and do better to get half the respect. That's the nature of the reality we are trying to change throughout the world and wikipedia is just one part of that larger world. We don't have to accept all the rules but we can't change them unless we have some engagement. Even if the engagement is these rules are male-created and reflect male values/attitudes/etc. and we want and equal say in creating the rules. To understand Wikipedia dispute resolution you really have to study this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution Except in the worst cases of abuse, you don't need to go to ANI. When the problem is guys ignoring you or reverting you too much or whatever it is they are doing cause they think they can get away with it (including if that reason is that you are female), there are a variety of options. I've used them all at different times, with more or less success depending on circumstances. CM On 7/1/2014 10:03 PM, Marie Earley wrote: Gosh, I did make a pig's ear out of it didn't I. I didn't realize the list had two Sarahs on it. Third time lucky In a discussion about off-Wiki mentions of editors, I was making a comparison between Carol Moore's suspension which she mentioned here http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2014-June/004397.html in answer to SlimVirgin (aka Sarah), in which Carol said: questioning behavior too aggressively off wikipedia evidently remains a no no. I was once blocked for a week for asking an editor whether his overwhelming history of editing in articles about bondage of females was related to his obvious and annoying harassment of me on a noticeboard, after which I mentioned the issue on the Wikia Feminism page which I thought was a part of Wikipedia (duh). The latter evidently was the bigger no no. ...and some of the stuff in an article on A Voice for Men's website. The third paragraph of this message http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2014-June/004409.html therefore should have read (correction in capital letters): I entered Wikipedia and male rights activists and got this http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fighting-wikipedia-corruption-censorship/ http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fighting-wikipedia-corruption-censorship which has a comments section at the bottom with current Wikipedia members mentioning other Wikipedia editors by name and talk of a great conspiracy at work against them, if CAROL was suspended for her off-site comments then how is this permissible? And LtPowers point that Wikipedia may simply not know is correct. Perhaps, editors just have to run the gauntlet / try and recruit more women / be a bit more pro-active about looking for and reporting off-wiki activities which break the rules and not just leave it to moderators. With that in mind I have reported the article to WP:ANI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Off-wiki_comments.2C_possible_multiple_policy_infringements Marie Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:31:42 -0700 From: slimvir...@gmail.com To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Moderation and the future of Gendergap-L On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 8:22 PM, Jeremy Baron jer...@tuxmachine.com mailto:jer...@tuxmachine.com wrote: On Jun 30, 2014 11:14 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com mailto:slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: Jeremy, which quote is this? I recall someone on this list saying that someone called Sarah was suspended (unclear what's meant) for an off-wiki comment. (Or something like that; I can't find the original.) I can't think of how that might apply to me, and Sarah Stierch has said it doesn't apply to her. See this message from earlier on this thread: On Jun 29, 2014 8:30 PM Eastern, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com mailto:eir...@hotmail.com wrote: My apologies it was Carol Moore responding to Sarah Stierch earlier on, I mentioned it
Re: [Gendergap] Moderation and the future of Gendergap-L
Actually that wasn't too bad a closing reply, since too often real complaints are just ignored and there is no close. Also, the good news is that *if* someone on wikipedia had linked to that article and said that Sue Gardner is not good like this article says blah blah, there might be some hope of a sanction. Last fall one editor who linked to a truly libelous blog posting about me that included a wish that I and my family be gassed. Another editor filed an ANI on him and he did get a whole 48 hour block. Less than the 6th months I originally was given for less before the community objected, but there is some limit to the nastiness they can get away with. On 7/2/2014 10:38 PM, Marie Earley wrote: I placed an ANI about the Voice for Men article and the subsequent comments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Off-wiki_comments.2C_possible_multiple_policy_infringements The result being: We cannot take action for off-Wiki discussions like this. However, an announcement on WP:AN about something like this would have been a wise idead instead of ANI (but we all know now) - that we we can keep an eye on things. Attacking Wikipedia would be a detriment to their cause - so is potentially libelous statements about the Foundation's employees - dumb, dumb, dumb thing to do. However, by posting about it here, they know that we know. Be vigilant :-) I suppose what it does mean is that if insults are hurled about female editors off-wiki we can post announcements in WP:AN which begin, Based on this ruling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Off-wiki_comments.2C_possible_multiple_policy_infringements I to inform the community about... I also had some nice posts sent to me on my talk page. P.S. I clicked on the link for WP:AN and found this little gem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AN#Topic_ban_proposal_for_Gibson_Flying_V Depressing but at least it's not all one-way traffic. Marie Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 18:46:19 -0400 From: carolmoor...@verizon.net To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Moderation and the future of Gendergap-L Re: the below, yes, i was blocked in a situation I thought was biased compared to other blocks I've seen. (I didn't mention that originally it was a six month block but the community of mostly guys thought that was grossly unfair and it was reduced to two weeks.) However, in general wikipedia is not half as bad as the Men's rights site you mentioned. And in Wikipedia there are Community Sanctions on too much conflict in men's rights areas. In fact we just had some problems with an individual with that bias and he was reminded of the sanctions and was stopped. In general women tend to avoid a lot of issues in the larger world because we don't like conflict. And that's understandable given that when guys do it with each other its considered a team sport. But when women jump in the middle, even if they know the rules (which we don't always), they usually are going to be given a harder time, expected to work harder and do better to get half the respect. That's the nature of the reality we are trying to change throughout the world and wikipedia is just one part of that larger world. We don't have to accept all the rules but we can't change them unless we have some engagement. Even if the engagement is these rules are male-created and reflect male values/attitudes/etc. and we want and equal say in creating the rules. To understand Wikipedia dispute resolution you really have to study this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution Except in the worst cases of abuse, you don't need to go to ANI. When the problem is guys ignoring you or reverting you too much or whatever it is they are doing cause they think they can get away with it (including if that reason is that you are female), there are a variety of options. I've used them all at different times, with more or less success depending on circumstances. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)
On 7/3/2014 1:40 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: The problem on en.wiki at least is that a vocal minority effectively prevent any enforcement of the civility policy. The other problem is double standard enforcement. A bunch of guys may complain about mild incivility by a female and she'll get warned by an admin at an ANI. A guy can get away with a lot of bullying, insults and harassment before complaints are taken seriously and there is even an admin comment on an ANI. That's why it's important to have the talk page of the gender gap task force page open to a listing of various ANIs and enforcement actions involving editors known to be women. A couple women going to each one and pointing out when these gender gap double standards obviously exist, over and over again would be a big help. That way there's some hope editors and admins especially will understand that double standards exist and are bad! Same with Harassment, incivility, etc. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Going to Admins talk pages directly after the rule wrong can be helpful. I've seen some obnoxious individuals get away with stuff because they'd chummy up to the Admin on their talk page and explain the righteousness of their behavior ad nauseam, as if to brainwash the admin. More squeaky wheel stuff. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)
While I've barely had a chance to read through proposal and comments, I'd like to just ask re the below which applies generally right now: On 7/7/2014 9:35 AM, Risker wrote: I know what it's like to have my inbox flooded with requests for assistance in relation to dispute resolution - just for oversight requests I get an average of 8 emails a day, when I was on arbcom it was over 100/day to various lists for various purposes. (Yes, it's one of the reasons that people burn out.) *Is it possible to establish a group of editors called arbcom assistants who would be admins appointed by arbcom to help with the workflow?? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Zoë Wicomb or Clive Cussler?
On 7/22/2014 8:00 PM, Kerry Raymond wrote: I think it's new-ness bias and a related content bias and a popularity bias rather than primarily a gender bias. There's loads of new work published all the time. Lots of it will not merit a Wikipedia article, just as many novels by the male contemporaries of Clive Cussler don't get Wikipedia articles either. Novels that have been around for years will have had lots of opportunity for 3^rd parties to talk about them to establish notability. New novels have a harder job to establish notability because they have been around for a shorter period of time for others to write about them. There's also the issue of whether you are an inclusionist or an exclusionist. (I'm the former.) Unfortunately, a lot of guy exclusionists see AfD as some sort of video game and feel like every deletion is a point in the game. A game which probably far more males than females want to play. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Zoë Wicomb or Clive Cussler?
On 7/23/2014 11:56 AM, Carol Moore dc wrote: On 7/22/2014 8:00 PM, Kerry Raymond wrote: I think it's new-ness bias and a related content bias and a popularity bias rather than primarily a gender bias. There's loads of new work published all the time. Lots of it will not merit a Wikipedia article, just as many novels by the male contemporaries of Clive Cussler don't get Wikipedia articles either. Novels that have been around for years will have had lots of opportunity for 3^rd parties to talk about them to establish notability. New novels have a harder job to establish notability because they have been around for a shorter period of time for others to write about them. There's also the issue of whether you are an inclusionist or an exclusionist. (I'm the former.) Unfortunately, a lot of guy exclusionists see AfD as some sort of video game and feel like every deletion is a point in the game. A game which probably far more males than females want to play. CM Additionally, we all have topics we dislike and may have a bias for deleting. (I control my urges by tagging articles rather than AfDing them.) It would be interesting to see if there is a pattern of certain individuals AfDing (and/or coming by to support AfDing) articles because of bias against women. If it's found, a few of us could leave them some nice notes on their talk pages about our findings. :-) Another project for the Gender Gap task force? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force It needs a lot of work and I have a number of improvements to main page in mind which will surprise us with soon. Just have a couple personal tasks to finish that as usual take longer than one would expect... ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
On 7/23/2014 5:10 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: Personally, I don't think it's worth having a discussion here about the merits of deleting these images. There's no chance in hell they are going to be deleted from Commons. What I'm more interested in is the locker-room nature of the discussions and how/if this can be addressed, as I think that is actually more likely to dissuade female contributors than the images themselves. Ryan Kaldari As long as they aren't in articles (or at least those most women are likely to end up at), it's not likely most women will see them and be dissuaded by that aspect of editing. Constantly reminding women they exist through this list or the Gender Gap Task Force probably would be more of a turn off. On the other hand, having a separate list which will, among other things, post notices of all such AfDs for those likely to want to AfD them might help get rid of some of the worse ones. And it might raise the consciousness of at least a few guys as to just how tacky they are. (I might join it for a while, but there's only so much one can take!) Another idea is to start Stupid sexist Wikicommons upload of the week (or day) page or -more likely - off wiki blog and make sure Wikicommons people all know about it. At least it would be evidence some in the wiki community are fed up with it and make it generally easy to AfD the most gratuitous images. Make it a facebook page with text making it clear LIKE means you think it's stupid and should be the Stupid sexist upload of the Day/Week - or whatever it might be called... Who knows, it might make a lot more women interested in Wikimedia projects (or not?) Finally, let's try to post only things from the past year. Who knows, maybe all those guys' consciousnesses have been raised 3% since we all started talking about these issues and media have started covering it and we might actually have improved things a bit since that 2011 posting :-) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Radio_button_and_female_nude.jpg CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Gender Gap brouhaha at en.Talk WP:ANI
It ranges all over the place on various issues. Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard#Where_and_how_to_request_a_Civility_board I'm now trying to use it for a definitive ruling as to whether the Gender Gap task force main page/subpage/essay can list particularly obnoxious examples of sexism, like a number that were mentioned here over the time. Pandora's box is being opened? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Gender Gap brouhaha at en.Talk WP:ANI
On 7/27/2014 3:07 PM, Pine W wrote: That discussion seems to have fragmented badly away from the original topic of a civility board, and I'm not sure that listing grievances, even legitimate ones, is likely to produce any good outcomes in that discussion. Might be better to start a new discussion with a narrow focus and specific proposals for change. Pine Probably anything less than a proposal worked over and signed on to by 20 editors on this topic would get derailed by those who just want to do their thing with out mother watching over the shoulder - or whatever. One of the items I put under suggestions on the talk page of the Gender Gap Task force agenda is thinking up policy tweaks and changes, like regarding WP:Civility and WP:Harassment, to make Wikipedia more comfortable for women. It probably would be best to start a discussion of solutions there, including some ideas that came up here in the last week. We're still building infrastructure, so come on by! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: It ranges all over the place on various issues. Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard#Where_and_how_to_request_a_Civility_board I'm now trying to use it for a definitive ruling as to whether the Gender Gap task force main page/subpage/essay can list particularly obnoxious examples of sexism, like a number that were mentioned here over the time. Pandora's box is being opened? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] WikiProject Countering systemic bias/open tasks
Going through old emails, see I now have info that replies to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/open_tasks On 6/26/2014 11:16 AM, Pharos wrote: I think a version of Marie's idea for an umbrella to help with diversity-related articles might be quite useful. A number of experienced editors have been trying to do this on an adhoc basis, but it's hard to scale. Perhaps it would make sense to revive WikiProject Countering Systemic Bias, or reformulate something like WikiProject Diversity. I can see the point that a typical wikiproject oriented around a particular subject area (rather than to fostering diversity in general) might be a somewhat limiting definition. Dr Strassman is actually chair of the board of the Wiki Education Foundation, serving the education program in the US and Canada (I am another one of the board members). Certainly the education program model of ambassadors is something that can be built on. Thanks, Pharos ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] c*nt talk
FYI. The C word discussion was prompted by the now closed WP:AN discussion mentioned previously. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Where_and_how_to_request_a_Civility_board On 7/27/2014 7:51 PM, Kathleen McCook wrote: These words do cause concern..this is an interesting essay on Bill Maher's use of the word...and the author ends by stating: Someone as clever as Maher, who writes and talks for a living, also probably has other words in his vocabulary that he could use, if he needs to express his contempt for Sarah Palin---words that aren't inherently misogynistic, words that don't demean other women in the process of discussing a particular woman. ... Just searching around found this interesting paper: http://www.tpettijohn.net/academic/Livosky%20Pettijohn%20Capo%20%282011%29%20-%20Reducing%20Sexist%20Attitudes.pdf PSYCHOLOGY AND EDUCATION -- AN INTERDISCIPLINARY JOURNAL Reducing Sexist Attitudes as a Result of Completing an Undergraduate Psychology of Gender Course Now what positive incentives can we offer to get some of these guys to take some sort of online course that they or we or someone could put together. A really great barnstar?? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] [Spam] Re: Sexualized environment on Commons
On 7/30/2014 5:51 AM, Marie Earley wrote: Things that I think might help: Help pages wise, I'm sure they'd love to see you at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Help I know I wasted a couple years learning the hard way because the Help pages didn't seem intuitive enough. However one trick we have to remember is to go to the search box and type WP:_ whatever the topic of interest is. One often gets a search return that get one just where one wants to go. A cheat sheet of editing and conflict resolution tips for women would be a great addition to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force Which is slowly but surely coming along. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
On 7/30/2014 11:39 PM, LB wrote: Twice during my short discussion about how to start a civility board, which turned into a long discussion about the word c*nt, an Admin gave the link to the Commons search results for that word, saying that showed that the text of the word isn't very offensive. WTF?! Actually I just searched for the first time and saw all photos were regarding Courageous Cunts and had a whole rant written on a talk page thinking it was some pervert thing. Then I looked at this political poster image https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Courageous_Cunts.jpg which leads to this site http://courageouscunts.com/ Which says: This is a protest page! We're a group of girls that got quite angry about the growing propaganda to surgically improve the female genitalia. Don't get us wrong: we're not blaming any woman for her conscious, informed decision. If you really want labiaplasty, go ahead. It's the alliance between porn and the medical industry we're opposed to. It's about their campaign to sell us the perfect labia. Here we try to raise a voice against it! Also CC's are at: https://www.flickr.com/people/76200162@N06 And saw all the photos l looked at were upload by by user: courageousC*nts So I assume it is a woman or women who were real ticked off about this in 2012? Unless it is a guy who used this evidently real issue as an excuse to get his jollies taking photos of shaved women. All that shaving does make me a bit suspicious... Also I noticed there are all sorts of photos under both male and female genitalia which probably are excessive in number and/or in detail, but not an issue I'm have energy to do much about. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Feedback appreciated
On 7/31/2014 4:32 PM, LB wrote: I would appreciate some feedback on this discussion, please, especially from others who have been stalked in real life, harassed online, or Wikihounded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Departed_member_explains.2C_in_her_own_words.2C_with_DIFFS Thanks. Lightbreather Actually, we are sort of bogged down in discussing whether to hat, close or immediately archive the kind of material that led to Lightbreather's discontent above. Since it spread out over so many threads, I just started a poll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Hatting_vs._closing_vs._immediate_archiving Disruption has happened and will happen from guys who are not happy about the project, or some of its participants, so we should try to tighten up our process. Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Proposal Proposal for wording to beef up the behavioral guidelines on top of the page. Otherwise there is some good progress being made in between everything else. Thanks! CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Government-Funded Study: Why Is Wikipedia Sexist?
http://freebeacon.com/issues/government-funded-study-why-is-wikipedia-sexist/ Government-Funded Study: Why Is Wikipedia Sexist? $202,000 to address 'gender bias' in world's biggest online encyclopedia BY: Elizabeth Harrington Coincidentally(?) even as we're trying to get the Task Force more together, there have been raging discussions on WP:ANI and Jimmy Wales talk page about this issue. Someone posted this article link on the talk page. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Re Government-Funded Study: Why Is Wikipedia Sexist?
Good points below. Also, on the academic side I can see it is academics looking for grants. On the govt side, I have to wonder. After all, in Wikipedia people will fight to get articles NPOV the govt would like to see biased, like against govt surveillance and Iran, Russia, Palestinians and for surveillance state, Ukrainian nationalists, Israel, etc. So if they can fund a few studies that make Wikipedia look bad, should they need to crack down on alternative voices, they'll have stuff to demonize Wikipedia with. But that's the just the tiny conspiracy theorist part of my brain talking :-) CM On 8/1/2014 11:31 AM, Kathleen McCook wrote: It is my perspective that working through the processes on Wikipedia are too democratic for most academics. It is easier to get a grant and become the defacto expert than to be part of the conversation. What I went through last week trying to get support for the South African novel, October, by Zoe Wicomb is a lot more than most professors could bear. But it seems to me that the group process, while more inclusive, can be obscured when experts study us. I have found this to happen to many grass roots efforts when studied. (labor union actions, migrant worker initiartves, etc.) --Kathleen Kathleen de la Peña McCook Distinguished University Professor of Librarianship USF/SI: http://si.usf.edu/faculty/kmccook/ Academia.edu: https://usf.academia.edu/KathleendelaPe%C3%B1aMcCook Library Thing:: http://www.librarything.com/catalog/klmccook/allcollections Zandt argues that Wikipedia is biased because the majority of its editors are young, white, child-free men. There's nothing inherently wrong with a young, white, child-free man's perspective, of course---it's just that there are tons of other perspectives in the world that should influence how a story gets told, Zandt wrote http://www.forbes.com/sites/deannazandt/2013/04/26/yes-wikipedia-is-sexist-thats-why-it-needs-you/ in an editorial for /Forbes/ last year, entitled, Yes, Wikipedia Is Sexist---That's Why It Needs You. On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com mailto:sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: This is amazing. That's a lot of money. Sarah On Aug 1, 2014 6:04 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: http://freebeacon.com/issues/government-funded-study-why-is-wikipedia-sexist/ Government-Funded Study: Why Is Wikipedia Sexist? $202,000 to address 'gender bias' in world's biggest online encyclopedia BY: Elizabeth Harrington Coincidentally(?) even as we're trying to get the Task Force more together, there have been raging discussions on WP:ANI and Jimmy Wales talk page about this issue. Someone posted this article link on the talk page. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
On 8/2/2014 1:37 AM, Keilana wrote: To briefly go back to what Sarah and Marie have said, I do find that in person hand-holding and social support are the most effective factors in getting women to stick around. I don't know how to translate that from the real-world environment I teach newbies in to the virtual environment of new users' talk pages. I'd love to brainstorm something in that vein, though. :) -Emily Lots of SKYPE mini- seminars!!! (Women only.) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Discussion on Jimbo Wales talk page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Rebooted_discussion This whole topic is going hot on heave on his talk page, starting with his proposal which I mention in my response on the proposalbelow: What if it was far more limited: /WMF hires mediators to do mediation and to train and monitor volunteer mediators. Mediation would be voluntary but it is likely Admins and Arbitrators would not look well on those who refused to engage in mediation or obviously did not take it seriously once they agreed to it./ I was in one mediation around 2007-8 on a really controversial topic. The mediator was inexperienced and had to start over at one point; but it still was extremely effective and greatly diminished edit warring among a few editors over several articles. However after that I couldn't find mediators for a one or two issues that had been accepted for mediation because no moderators were available, so I didn't try again for a few years. When I did four people wanted it; two refused on questionable grounds. The issue went to arbitration but Arbitrators didn't take the mediation issue seriously, perhaps because it was known that there aren't many mediators or they aren't effective. Of course it's been ignored, but there are some thoughtful comments there. And a lot of drama with a couple guys who defend their right to be uncivil quitting. While I was on my best behavior with constructive comments throughout, I did have to say at one point that those who support incivility should at least not have a double standard against women being equally uncivil. What good for the goose is good for the gander. Later my roommate explained to me the gander is the MALE not the female! So it took me 66 years to figure it out. Maybe others are similarly confused?? I guess from now on just to make myself perfectly clear I'll say Whats good for the male gander is good for the female goose. Ai, yi, yi!! CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Do male editors Man up to take pain of editing?
Reading through a 2011 post by a woman who quit because she didn't need the grief I was thinking about why guys keep editing despite it. And it occurred to me men are taught to take the pain, pretend it doesn't hurt, man up. In the ongoing discussion of civility on Jimbo Wales talk page I brought that up in one of the several threads on the topic. Wonder if they'll be a lot of wailing? Or a little soul searching?? CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Do male editors Man up to take pain of editing?
On 8/6/2014 2:34 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: Reading through a 2011 post by a woman who quit because she didn't need the grief I was thinking about why guys keep editing despite it. And it occurred to me men are taught to take the pain, pretend it doesn't hurt, man up. While I readily admit that that is the kind of bullshit masculinity I was raised in, as a Wikipedian I persevere more in the nil desperandum sentiment that has sustained so many of my fellow Quakers and Wobblies to persist in the face of persecution and even murder. You do the right thing, and keep doing the right thing as long as the breath is in your body, because it is the right thing to do. Definitely a higher consciousness response. As I just wrote on Jimbo Wales page in reaction to another women editor who detailed the same experiences I've had editing in controversial areas (and put in a box on my Carolmooredc user page called Changing Wikipedia's Mad Dog Culture: I totally agree with your experience, since I also edit controversial topics. I was watching two male dogs on the each side of two neighbors' fence the other day who spend at least an hour a day patrolling their side and peeing on each others' pee. A visiting female dog came up to the fence and started to pee and they both went nuts and scared her off. Here some yell CUNT or other obscene words (in a perfectly innocent fashion, of course) to scare off women. Luckily for them women choose not to reply with words that would wither their kilts in a second. (Tempting as it might be.) We seem to forget that humans have both an upper brain (the cerebrum) which is relatively rational and a lower brain (the brainstem and cerebellum) that deals with automatic and unconscious functions. I like to think that humans can choose not to act like dogs automatically peeing all over territory they think is theres and driving out any females. Of course, that's more difficult in a culture that is riddled with patriarchal and violent attitudes and entertainment, teaching young males and some females to act like mad dogs. It would be nice if Wikipedia was a place that totally transcends - yes for weeks at a time - the lower brain mad dog modus operandi. (end) == This really is the meaning of consciousness raising. Us oldsters from the sixties and seventies were very much into transcending the big bad lower brain. (Tim Leary being an arch advocate of it.) Now science acts as if it's all one big brain with little male and female sections. See even wikipedia's human brain article. The powers that be don't want us to know that we don't have to be violent barely conscious autamotons willing to live, work, kill and die for them, and other wise happy to get a meager paycheck, stuff our faces with junk food and watch tv. The word self-actualization which was our mantra is now a joke word. It's like we're living in a hip version of the 1950s all over again, but with lots of rules and regulations to enforce political correctness and give all power to the politicians so they can keep most of us - and especially the young males - living barely above a lower brain level. Yes, we old hippies did know something :-) CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Men's rights v feminists on Wikipedia in Washington Post
On 8/8/2014 11:28 AM, Tim Davenport wrote: Ironically, all reference to Caitlin Dewey's ''Washington Post'' piece cited by Ms. Stierch has been swept away from the En-WP article [[Gender bias on Wikipedia]] by a tag-team. Tim Davenport /// Carrite Corvallis, OR Similarly there's support for the use of a slur against named feminists by an advocacy site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RSN#Transadvocate_use_in_BLP.2C_etc. (Even as some of the same editors in the article in question have opposed, an most probably will oppose, using an article mentioning feminist views and the slur on the journalistic site Counterpunch.) ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sh*tstarting...] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
On 8/12/2014 1:39 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) OK, in that vein, first, are we talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help/clickthrough I hate chatting myself so already have a bad attitude. I guess those with a similar attitude will avoid that option. Experienced people may be able to figure out how it works and if they have a regular IRC account or they're using the wikipedia account to get in there. But I'm sure a lot of people will be confused. But my Shitstarter comments are: *If women are having harassment and other issues are they at least being made aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force (or if more relevant https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap) and even sent there for help, even before ANI. Obviously, not, because right now males are still disrupting it. Just as they are disrupting editing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_bias_on_Wikipedia A lot of women did show up and were quite outspoken at the Jimmy Wales talk page, but we can't just rely on him to solve our problems. At both the Gender Gap Task force and Gender bias on Wikipedia article they've been picking on the more outspoken and active women, casting aspersions based on little or nothing but their own prejudice. If women are watching, they are saying little or nothing. And several editors have joined, evidently taken a quick look at the talk page, and unjoined. I personally don't want to make this my main project and wouldn't be able to anyway because a couple of these guys already have harassed me so much I lost my temper leading to a topic ban in another area. And those two and some new ones with strong men's rights POVs (if not editing histories) are trying to do it again. So I can't predict how long I'll last. But the whole bloody mess is all there in Gender Gap Task Force history, so expect the New York Times article How (pick your adjective) males destroyed the Wikipedia Gender Gap Task Force if more women don't women up and get involved. I keep hoping that those of us who are active are not seen as too assertive and too scary by other women. Frustrated... CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sh*tstarting...] IRC web client for Wikipedia help
For anyone who gets to the bottom of this, wet noodle time on me for getting frustrated. I certainly respect the reasoning of those who want to stay away from the fray, take breaks, boycott etc. and wish I could get myself to do it! It just would be nice to see a bit more action out of a group that ostensibly is for dealing with the problem. On 8/12/2014 2:56 PM, Carol Moore dc wrote: On 8/12/2014 1:39 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote: Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) OK, in that vein, first, are we talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help/clickthrough I hate chatting myself so already have a bad attitude. I guess those with a similar attitude will avoid that option. Experienced people may be able to figure out how it works and if they have a regular IRC account or they're using the wikipedia account to get in there. But I'm sure a lot of people will be confused. But my Shitstarter comments are: *If women are having harassment and other issues are they at least being made aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force (or if more relevant https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap) and even sent there for help, even before ANI. Obviously, not, because right now males are still disrupting it. Just as they are disrupting editing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_bias_on_Wikipedia A lot of women did show up and were quite outspoken at the Jimmy Wales talk page, but we can't just rely on him to solve our problems. At both the Gender Gap Task force and Gender bias on Wikipedia article they've been picking on the more outspoken and active women, casting aspersions based on little or nothing but their own prejudice. If women are watching, they are saying little or nothing. And several editors have joined, evidently taken a quick look at the talk page, and unjoined. I personally don't want to make this my main project and wouldn't be able to anyway because a couple of these guys already have harassed me so much I lost my temper leading to a topic ban in another area. And those two and some new ones with strong men's rights POVs (if not editing histories) are trying to do it again. So I can't predict how long I'll last. But the whole bloody mess is all there in Gender Gap Task Force history, so expect the New York Times article How (pick your adjective) males destroyed the Wikipedia Gender Gap Task Force if more women don't women up and get involved. I keep hoping that those of us who are active are not seen as too assertive and too scary by other women. Frustrated... CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Easy thing that would help the en.Wiki Gender Gap Project
As I've mentioned, the biggest problem we're having now is male attack posts, female complaints about such attacks, generally disruptive/tendentious threads which really are driving off people who join the project, probably look at the page, and quickly leave. I started this thread. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Hatting_vs._closing_vs._immediate_archiving_vs._indexing_on_subpages Hatting vs. closing vs. immediate archiving vs. indexing on subpages It initially was responded to by all males, two of them wikihounders, one who has some odd ball agenda, and a sensible one. (There also was a discussion at another thread about the way another guy came in and hatted complaint discussions about sexism that hadn't been finished, which muddied the waters.) Sarah (SlimVirgin) suggested a 30 day archiving regime which we've had for a week or two. But I just got fed up and changed it to 15 days, but don't know how long that would last. It really would help if editors could come to the thread and tell us what they think about leaving all those disruptive posts up there as opposed to having ''active and constructive members close/hat/archive the most problematic ones as seems sensible on a case by case basis. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Huge list of Gender Gap resources
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1 It took me a month to put together, including by rereading 2/3 of threads here and grabbing links. The big objection to working to end the gender gap has been that there's no proof it exists/its important/we can change it/etc. I do expect there to be fierce objection to listing 80% of this material from the Gender Gap task force naysayers. But the entries are wikiproject relevant, if not always useable as reliable sources in articles. Additions and constructive suggestions welcome. Contents * 1 Books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Books * 2 Mainstream and tech publication articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Mainstream_and_tech_publication_articles * 3 Research studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Research_studies o 3.1 Wikimedia Foundation sponsored studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Wikimedia_Foundation_sponsored_studies o 3.2 Outside studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Outside_studies o 3.3 Studies on similar topics and/or communities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Studies_on_similar_topics_and.2For_communities * 4 Wikimedia Foundation and Wikimedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Wikimedia_Foundation_and_Wikimedia o 4.1 Gender gap projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Gender_gap_projects o 4.2 Diversity projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Diversity_projects o 4.3 Outreach project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Outreach_project o 4.4 Wikimedia blog entries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Wikimedia_blog_entries o 4.5 Wikimania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Wikimania o 4.6 Essays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Essays o 4.7 Civility issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Civility_issue * 5 En.Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#En.Wikipedia o 5.1 Gender gap-related projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Gender_gap-related_projects o 5.2 Workshops and Edit-a-thons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Workshops_and_Edit-a-thons o 5.3 /Sign Post/ articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Sign_Post_articles o 5.4 Wikipedia articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Wikipedia_articles o 5.5 Women-related article lists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Women-related_article_lists o 5.6 Relevant essays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Relevant_essays * 6 Help pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Help_pages * 7 Audio and video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Audio_and_video * 8 Civility issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Civility_issue_2 * 9 Images https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Images * 10 Related sites and projects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Related_sites_and_projects * 11 Interesting blog and other articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1#Interesting_blog_and_other_articles ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Huge list of Gender Gap resources
On 8/28/2014 12:18 PM, Amanda Menking wrote: This is /fantastic/, Carol! I've been (very slowly) updating https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap. Will you be posting these resources there, too? If not, may I? Best, Amanda I definitely was going to bring most of this material over. Let's discuss best format on the talk page. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] What is status of Foundation Gender Gap projects and relation to wikimedia Gender Gap project?
People in the know can answer when it's covenient next week, but since it's on my mind, posting now. As we write on Gender Gap Task Force main page: In 2014 Wikipedia co-founder [[Jimmy Wales]] said the [[Wikimedia Foundation]] was doubling down its efforts to reach that goal and would be doing more outreach and software changes. Reference: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28701772 Wikipedia 'completely failed' to fix gender imbalance, [[BBC]] interview August 8, 2014. So info on status of interns, paid staffers working on this, volunteer efforts, etc. and their relation to the Wikimedia Gender Gap Task force would be helpful. I know Wikimedia Gender Gap project which is not very active, though sub-projects like WikiWomen's Collaborative are doing some things. Reminder of temporary address of en.Wikipedia Gender Gap Task force's big list of resources which is relevant to the above and does in fact contain links where we can infer answers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1 is One reason I ask is I just put up this message at Wikimedia Gender Gap project but then started wondering about the issues above. /Should this project be listed on Outreach.wikimedia?? at //https://meta.wikimedia.org/Talk:Gender_gap#Should_this_project_be_listed_on_Outreach.wikimedia.3F.3F// // //https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page links to GLAM (Galleries, Libraries, Archives Museums) and Wikimedia Education Portal (re: different countries) (as well as Best Practices and Success stories). Considering women are half the human race, it seems sensible to include this project there. It probably would bring more willing volunteers to outreach in general as well. I don't see any discussion of this on this talk page and only a link to Outreach Village Pump as a good place to discuss outreach to women. / So clarifications and updates would be great and I'm sure lots of us are interested. Thanks!! CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] WP:ANI on Disruption of Gender Gap Task Force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruption_of_Wikiproject After multiple complaints by other editors about this, I decided to bring an ANI. It might not be the best constructed one possible. And maybe I'm not the best person to do it, being a little too outspoken (I even make jokes!) and controversial with too many enemies (guys who don't like women who stick to their opinions on hot topics?) But the project is so disrupted I cannot even put up the resources page because I know that it will be gutted down to zilch by one editor especially if I do. (He's been wikihounding me and reverting me for over a year and multiple complaints have come to naught.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1 The community has to face the fact that this is the only Wikiproject under attack. Like I said, other projects don't permit it. Can you imagine if it were permitted on the Palestine or Israel wikiprojects and they were going at each other? Or the Christian and LGBT? Absurd... At least Mr. Wales agrees... sigh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#WP:ANI_on_.E2.80.9Cdisruption_of_Wikiproject.E2.80.9D CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter
Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to wonder about this Hashtag effort. Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month ago out of her own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping and canvassing issues were raised while others applauded it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_the_status_quo... I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was friends with people you quoted (or people who don't like you) probably would get you blocked for weeks or months at a time. So it could be a way to trap editors whose twitter accounts are somehow linked to their user names. I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a woman editor on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites. But that doesn't mean any of us would get away with it. And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project #GenderGapStupidity or whatever. So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way to do this, I would tread carefully... CM On 9/9/2014 6:05 AM, Gender Gap wrote: Hey, I've been following this list for a while. I'm pretty sick of the constant sexism on Wikipedia, and depressed because it's not just a few users, but seen in the opinions and suggestions of so many. I've started a twitter account (https://twitter.com/SaidOnWP) to give some examples of what I think the most egregious things said are. This will probably upset some users, especially users that meant well, but many things that are said that are well-meaning have some offensive underlying ideas. I want to show the mass of evidence that sexism exists on WP in a venue where it doesn't have to be interrupted by users demanding proof. I know that this is more confrontational than some users will want, but I'm sick of the anti-interventionalist sentiment from different quarters in WP, with the attitude oh! well it's up to what the community wants...! This is a problem with the community and I hope to shed some light on it. I'm going to be posting things every day and have enough content planned for about a month, repost, send me examples or follow my twitter. I'm only posting content from this year, and include analyses, discussions, commentary and incidents. #saidonWP ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Result: WP:ANI on Disruption of Gender Gap Task Force; plus Arbitraition Denial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive853#Disruption_of_Wikiproject There will clearly never be a consensus for any administrative action to be taken with respect to this incident, therefore this discussion only continues to serve as a drama-generating time vampire. Both sides of the argument need to step back, take a deep breath, and act like rational adults. The editors that are alleging disruption need to realize that there is a difference between someone being uncivil/disruptive and someone simply disagreeing with your point of view. The editors who have been accused of disruption need to realize that while it is ok to disagree with someone's point of view, doing it in a brusque or rude manner will only make it less likely that the other side will actually consider your point of view, rather than simply focus on your attitude and ultimately end up in an entirely unproductive discussion like the one you see below here. In summary, no action will come of this discussion, and all of the involved parties here need to work this out amongst themselves like mature adults. +++ One editor was disgusted and requested an Arbitration which looks like it will be declined, which is preferred until we at least find out if these guys intend to keep it up. (I know my Wikihounder of the last year intends to and has been doing so.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Gender_Gap_Task_Force_Issues +++ Despite the large number of individuals disgusted with the disruption, some Admins and Arbitrators refuse to take it seriously. Unfortunately, the only real solution is Electing Admins and Aribtrators against the Gender Gap. But who needs the grief?? CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity
Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity http://wikipediocracy.com/2014/09/07/wikipedia-and-the-war-on-womens-dignity/ This article mentions an individual who's caused problems at the Gender Gap task force. Off wiki sites engaging in outing is, like hashtags, a two edged sword. It can be used against truly problematic individuals who troll behind anonymity. But it also can be used against solid editors whose job or other situation necessitates anonymity but who have angered the wrong troll by trying to comply with policy. And the absurdities continue CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter
On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote: I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point, but that's my thinking on it at this time. Lightbreather You are braver than I! On the other hand this is what [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] wrote when I complained the woman editor was being harassed off line: /Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or elsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a matter of public interest, just like stories like [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ this], [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ this], [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ this], [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia this] or [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/ this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea. /Thus one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it? (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs. female actions.) / /Here's the link to the ANI in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to wonder about this Hashtag effort. Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month ago out of her own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping and canvassing issues were raised while others applauded it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_the_status_quo... I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was friends with people you quoted (or people who don't like you) probably would get you blocked for weeks or months at a time. So it could be a way to trap editors whose twitter accounts are somehow linked to their user names. I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a woman editor on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites. But that doesn't mean any of us would get away with it. And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project #GenderGapStupidity or whatever. So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way to do this, I would tread carefully... CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Use of hashtag... Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter
On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com mailto:nawr...@gmail.com wrote Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas' quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor review and found none. I did not know that the harassing individual was a woman until now. If it was mentioned in passing in the ANI, I missed it. Frankly, unless a woman through her user name makes it clear she is a woman, given the predominance of males, I've come to the point where I do not even bother to try to figure it out. Even with women joining the Gender gap task force, I don't always check it out and sometimes when I have there also was no indication on their user page. One such woman went around complaining I didn't know she was a woman, when there had been no indication. We are not mind readers. I have often regretted using my real name and an obviously female name. However the last week or so I have see the fact that so many women feel forced to hide their sex to prevent their being ignored, reverted, harassed, etc. as a kind of burqa we are forced to wear to protect ourselves. It's pretty sad. In any case, the ANI itself is still primarily relevant to off-wiki criticism and whether women can use a *twitter hashtag* to identify criticism and whether we should... Thus I've added that to the subject line to stay on topic. While I'm not going to promote the idea, I think anyone is serious about it they might take it to Village Pump - or the WP:Canvas or WP:Forumshopping pages. CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity
Good point. Actually I first heard about it on ANI where they didn't link to the page, but I didn't put two and two together of WHY they didn't link. On 9/9/2014 7:22 PM, Katherine Casey wrote: I don't think it's appropriate to use this list to link to pages that out other users. I understand your frustration with nothing onwiki getting done, Carol, I truly do, but part of the social contract of being a Wikipedian is that we're expected to not attack the real lives of other Wikipedians - even when we think they're terrible or totally wrong. On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity http://wikipediocracy.com/2014/09/07/wikipedia-and-the-war-on-womens-dignity/ This article mentions an individual who's caused problems at the Gender Gap task force. Off wiki sites engaging in outing is, like hashtags, a two edged sword. It can be used against truly problematic individuals who troll behind anonymity. But it also can be used against solid editors whose job or other situation necessitates anonymity but who have angered the wrong troll by trying to comply with policy. And the absurdities continue CM ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity
The Resources page links to forty-eight mainstream and tech articles with another 30 or 40 reprints or summaries of those in smaller mainstream publications. The fourteen blog and other entries are just a smattering of the higher quality blog and activist commentary on Wikipedia. So there is a lot of good work being done, in between the crappy commentary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1 On 9/11/2014 8:14 PM, LB wrote: I hear you, but I would very much like to see some good newsrooms (real journalists) do regular reporting on Wikipedia. I think it would be hard on the community at first, but ultimately would help. WP is a hostile work environment and I for one am tired of it. Lightbreather On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com mailto:risker...@gmail.com wrote: Frankly, I see little value in creating a site whose goal includes attracting journalists - particularly given the poor quality, sensationalistic journalism that we've all seen reporting on anything Wikimedia. Risker/Anne ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
