Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 03:03:37PM -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Interestingly enough, I did write a quick little framework that works very similar to Turbine and has the same concept of users/roles/permissions. =) Well, if you want an MVC framework, someone did a port of Maverick to PHP: http://amb.sourceforge.net/ :-P Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
Berin wrote: | Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that | a certain customization required so many fundamental changes that it would | be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me | that he would never be able to convince the CEO that was the right choice, | so the Quick and Dirty route was the choice--taking me twice as long to | get it done. Preferred pain is a known pain with an experience-based cap. New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with unknown maximum pain. If your previous experience confirms that max(NewPain) = max(OldPain), then go ahead and implement NewPain, but make it look like OldPain. If max(NewPain) turns out to be max(OldPain), you're on the hook. But you would have first hand experience to make the call, whereas your boss (and definitely his boss) would not (or they wouldn't object in the first place). One successful implementation of NewPain where max(NewPain) = max(OldPain), while delivering promised improvements, will set a precedent. But someone has to take the risk. And it won't be people twice-removed from the pain. ... in my (painful) experience. Rich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
- Original Message - From: Rich Persaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with unknown maximum pain. Now we finally know what the POI developers were thinking. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0
Cool! I'm impressed! I'll have to check that out. On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 20:12, Daniel Rall wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable. Note that Velocity actually implements a documented specification which any vender can pick up create their own implementation of. -- Daniel Rall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
I knew that was coming. -dysfunctional Andy On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 03:36, Bill Barker wrote: - Original Message - From: Rich Persaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with unknown maximum pain. Now we finally know what the POI developers were thinking. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug handling survey - Tree based models
Hello Jakarta contributors, I am conducting a survey about the way bugs are handled in open source software projects. The survey includes questions that can be answered by developers,testers, bug fixers, project managers, and owners of defect databases. It is only and only for research purposes and it is very easy to fill out. It consists of three short sections which can be completed at once or in different sessions. Please fill it out if you haven't done yet. You will find the questions interesting since there is a reason behind each one one of them. They will make you think about how things work (or could work)in your project. The survey can be found in the address: http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/dhsurvey.html The data in the bug databases can be used to identify the high risk areas in the software development. One of the ways of doing it is constructing tree-based models, which could be very useful in open source projects. If you would like to read about it, I prepared a web page for you: http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.html Please accept my apologies if you receive duplicates of this e-mail. This is a survey, which will give useful results for all of us. I will try to prepare and make some preliminary results on-line within the next two weeks. Since this is a survey, covering many important open source projects, it will be interesting for everybody to see what kind of quality assurance work is going on in the other projects. As always, we are very dedicated to this research. Please contact me for any question you might have. Thank you, A. Gunes Koru http://www.engr.smu.edu/~gkoru -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug handling survey - Tree based models
The big image in Gunes' description is wrongly linked to: file:///home/gkoru/tbdm1.jpg you can find it at: http://engr.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.jpg Gunes Koru wrote: Hello Jakarta contributors, I am conducting a survey about the way bugs are handled in open source software projects. The survey includes questions that can be answered by developers,testers, bug fixers, project managers, and owners of defect databases. It is only and only for research purposes and it is very easy to fill out. It consists of three short sections which can be completed at once or in different sessions. Please fill it out if you haven't done yet. You will find the questions interesting since there is a reason behind each one one of them. They will make you think about how things work (or could work)in your project. The survey can be found in the address: http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/dhsurvey.html The data in the bug databases can be used to identify the high risk areas in the software development. One of the ways of doing it is constructing tree-based models, which could be very useful in open source projects. If you would like to read about it, I prepared a web page for you: http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.html Please accept my apologies if you receive duplicates of this e-mail. This is a survey, which will give useful results for all of us. I will try to prepare and make some preliminary results on-line within the next two weeks. Since this is a survey, covering many important open source projects, it will be interesting for everybody to see what kind of quality assurance work is going on in the other projects. As always, we are very dedicated to this research. Please contact me for any question you might have. Thank you, A. Gunes Koru http://www.engr.smu.edu/~gkoru -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Privacy and Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this E-Mail message is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. Such information is confidential and privileged and no mistake in transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege. If you have received it in error, please destroy it and notify us on the telephone number printed above. If you do not receive complete and legible copies, please telephone us immediately. Any opinions expressed herein including attachments are those of the author only. i-documentsystems Ltd. does not accept responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of the information provided or for any changes to this Email, however made, after it was sent. (Please note that it is your responsibility to scan this message for viruses). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug handling survey - Tree based models
I answered the first two or three of these that was sent to me (student studies)... But they seem to be blooming rapidly. One could hypothesize through the use of some kind of mathematical model that if one continues to participate they will increase exponentially and eventually one will answer surveys with all of the time they would spend actually participating in open source software projects. We should round these kids up and get them to maybe create a student survey information site. They could do it as their own opensource project and then collect the data they need from themselves ;-) -Andy On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 10:38, Gunes Koru wrote: Hello Jakarta contributors, I am conducting a survey about the way bugs are handled in open source software projects. The survey includes questions that can be answered by developers,testers, bug fixers, project managers, and owners of defect databases. It is only and only for research purposes and it is very easy to fill out. It consists of three short sections which can be completed at once or in different sessions. Please fill it out if you haven't done yet. You will find the questions interesting since there is a reason behind each one one of them. They will make you think about how things work (or could work)in your project. The survey can be found in the address: http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/dhsurvey.html The data in the bug databases can be used to identify the high risk areas in the software development. One of the ways of doing it is constructing tree-based models, which could be very useful in open source projects. If you would like to read about it, I prepared a web page for you: http://www.seas.smu.edu/~gkoru/surveys/tbdm1.html Please accept my apologies if you receive duplicates of this e-mail. This is a survey, which will give useful results for all of us. I will try to prepare and make some preliminary results on-line within the next two weeks. Since this is a survey, covering many important open source projects, it will be interesting for everybody to see what kind of quality assurance work is going on in the other projects. As always, we are very dedicated to this research. Please contact me for any question you might have. Thank you, A. Gunes Koru http://www.engr.smu.edu/~gkoru -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
-Original Message- From: Rich Persaud [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ??? Preferred pain is a known pain with an experience-based cap. New and improved pain may promise an average POI (Pain-on-Investment) that is 50% of the familiar pain, but will be assigned a risk profile with unknown maximum pain. If your previous experience confirms that max(NewPain) = max(OldPain), then go ahead and implement NewPain, but make it look like OldPain. If max(NewPain) turns out to be max(OldPain), you're on the hook. But you would have first hand experience to make the call, whereas your boss (and definitely his boss) would not (or they wouldn't object in the first place). One successful implementation of NewPain where max(NewPain) = max(OldPain), while delivering promised improvements, will set a precedent. But someone has to take the risk. And it won't be people twice-removed from the pain. ... in my (painful) experience. Here is the short answer. Always say Boss I think this will take a little refactoring of some code. I should be able to reuse the most of the code. I will only change what has to changed, and I will make sure that the changes are isolated. Then do you whatever it takes, including throwing out ALL THE OLD CODE. It's your reputation regardless. You will not be able to say My manager wouldn't let me do it right They will always say If you knew it was the wrong approach, you should have come to me so we can discuss it with your manager. R, Nick -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, Daniel Rall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a clever balance between the two. Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets. http://www.modpython.org/live/mod_python-2.7.8/doc-html/tut-pub.html Notice the HTML embedded in the .py file? There really isn't anything different between that and a servlet and isn't python slower than Java anyway? So, now we just go down the path of re-implementing everything we have spent years implementing in Java...I don't see the gain. +1 for python as a replacement for Perl scripts -0 for python as a replacement for Servlets =) -jon (who thinks Daniel is bitten by the python bug =) ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 14:05, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, Daniel Rall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a clever balance between the two. Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets. http://www.modpython.org/live/mod_python-2.7.8/doc-html/tut-pub.html Notice the HTML embedded in the .py file? There really isn't anything different between that and a servlet and isn't python slower than Java anyway? So, now we just go down the path of re-implementing everything we have spent years implementing in Java...I don't see the gain. For apples to apples: http://webware.sourceforge.net/ http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/ ( God knows why they went with a syntax almost but not quite exactly like velocity, but it is still pretty nice stuff ) +1 for python as a replacement for Perl scripts -0 for python as a replacement for Servlets =) -jon (who thinks Daniel is bitten by the python bug =) ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On 9/10/02 3:47, Berin Loritsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that a certain customization required so many fundamental changes that it would be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me that he would never be able to convince the CEO that was the right choice, so the Quick and Dirty route was the choice--taking me twice as long to get it done. I got out of the same tie today, but I won! :-) And it was about Objects in PL-SQL... That was a close one! :-) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On 8/10/02 23:59, Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the best code for the long term. PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the crappiest code for the long term. The problem is when you see people using Java as PHP... That _really_ screws things up... Want some few megs of classes as an example? Nah, you'll hack in my employer's site in less than 10 minutes! :-) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0
I believe they also tried to make a JSR out of it, but got shot down somewhere in the middle... :-( Pier On 9/10/02 13:38, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cool! I'm impressed! I'll have to check that out. On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 20:12, Daniel Rall wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable. Note that Velocity actually implements a documented specification which any vender can pick up create their own implementation of. -- Daniel Rall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0
What do you expect from idiots who think naming api's JAX[letter] is a good idea? (JAXM/JAXP/JAXB/JAXC/etc... I'm sorry but that is just really really stupid sick and befuddled! BAD BAD BADAnd this is coming from me! The sick abbreviation kingpin himself!) -Andy On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 19:20, Pier Fumagalli wrote: I believe they also tried to make a JSR out of it, but got shot down somewhere in the middle... :-( Pier On 9/10/02 13:38, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cool! I'm impressed! I'll have to check that out. On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 20:12, Daniel Rall wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Even if it ties me to an Apache-proprietary template language, trading that for something less disgusting than JSP seems preferable. Note that Velocity actually implements a documented specification which any vender can pick up create their own implementation of. -- Daniel Rall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts and Tomcat 4.0
on 2002/10/9 4:20 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe they also tried to make a JSR out of it, but got shot down somewhere in the middle... :-( Pier Geir and I approached the JCP about creating a JSR for a Java Template Language (see enclosed) and even had a number assigned to track it (I forget which number now). However, after battling some ASF people (ahem Craig) who didn't want to see the ASF support such a useful thing (Craig is afraid that Velocity might actually beat the shit out of his companies JSP) as well as discussions with clueless JCP EC members who couldn't tell the difference between Velocity and JSP (Hello! Ever tried to use JSP outside of a web request??); Geir and I decided to remove our proposal. On top of it, this was right when the ASF was in the heated battle with the JCP to get what we wanted in terms of licensing so the timing was off anyway. In the end, I think the JCP is a miserable failure anyway. Sun's stock isn't worth anything http://chart.yahoo.com/c/0b/s/sunw.gif and the JCP is still weighed down with a minimal support staff and a load of bullshit politics which only make the lawyers rich. Imho, Velocity is as much of a standard as JSP is and doesn't need the JCP to 'approve' it. http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd-implementation.html -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN HTML HEAD TITLEJava Template Language/TITLE /HEAD BODY BGCOLOR=#FF TEXT=#00 P FONT SIZE=+2General Instructions/FONT P This template has been designed to be easily filled out using an HTML editor. Please complete all sections. Don't forget to give the proposed specification a name. P E-mail the completed JSR to: A HREF=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED];[EMAIL PROTECTED]/A. Don't forget to include the name of the JSR in the subject line. PAs stated in A HREF=jcp2.html#1Section 1/A of the Java Community Process, JSRs will only be accepted from Members. BRBR HR A NAME=1/A PFONT size=+2Title:br/b(Insert JSR name here)/FONT/P PJava Template Language/P Pfont size=+2Summary:/fontbr(Please provide a description of the JSR in 30 words or less)/P P This JSR defines a template language, the functionality of the template processing engine, and supporting APIs designed for formatting and processing textual and other information from Java. /P PFONT size=+2Section 1. Identification/FONT PbSubmitting Member:/b Apache Software Foundation/P PbName of Contact Person:/b Geir Magnusson Jr. and Jon S. Stevens/P PbE-Mail Address:/b [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]/P PbTelephone Number:/b 203-834-0898 and 510-843-3122/P PbFax Number:/b none/P BR PbSpecification Lead:/b Geir Magnusson Jr. and Jon S. Stevens/P PbE-Mail Address:/b [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]/P PbTelephone Number:/b 203-834-0898 and 510-843-3122/P PbFax Number:/b none/P BR PBInitial Expert Group Membership:/B br(Please provide company or organization names. Note that expert group members must have A HREF=./getstarted.htmlsigned the JSPA/A.)/P PApache Software Foundation/P BRBR A NAME=2/A P FONT SIZE=+2Section 2: Request/FONTP /P H42.1 Please describe the proposed Specification:/H4 P We intend to propose a standard Java Template Language which is based upon the Apache Jakarta Velocity project as the reference implementation. Here is a description of Velocity: /P P Velocity is a Java-based template engine. It permits anyone to use the simple yet powerful template language to reference objects defined in Java code. It also defines a minimal set of directives that control basic logic, variables and basic looping constructs. /P P When Velocity is used for web development, Web designers can work in parallel with Java programmers to develop web sites according to the Model-View-Controller (MVC) model, meaning that web page designers can focus solely on creating a site that looks good, and programmers can focus solely on writing top-notch code. /P P Velocity has been successfully used to solve many problems in textual processing and data output in Java. These solutions include source code (Java, C, etc) and SQL code generation, XML document transformation in conjunction with and in place of XSLT, and web page generation in the Java servlet environment. Velocity is also included in GentleWare's Poseidon for UML Community Edition as the template tool for dynamic generation of Java code from UML. /P P For more information on Velocity, please visit the a href=http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/;website/a which contains full documentation and download the release. /P H42.2 What is the target Java platform? (i.e., desktop, server, personal, embedded, card, etc.)/H4 PDesktop, Server, Personal/P H42.3 What need
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2002 03:40:35 AM: Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the best code for the long term. PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the crappiest code for the long term. mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a clever balance between the two. XML IS NOT A PROGAMMING LANGUAGE. For certain! This is one of my biggest issues with Ant and Jelly/Maven -- working with them is just ... icky. So use the script tag in Ant/Jelly. -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting Work: http://www.multitask.com.au Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On Wednesday 09 October 2002 07:18 pm, Pier Fumagalli wrote: On 9/10/02 3:47, Berin Loritsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that a certain customization required so many fundamental changes that it would be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me that he would never be able to convince the CEO that was the right choice, so the Quick and Dirty route was the choice--taking me twice as long to get it done. I got out of the same tie today, but I won! :-) And it was about Objects in PL-SQL... That was a close one! :-) Objects in PL-SQL. I still have nightmares. SQLJ and Oracle's Object extensions were so seductive. shudder And I'm in the camp that thinks the ad going around with the snail/cheetah = Relational/Object just shows that most OO developers are ignorant regarding the relational model. Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
