Re: Scalability and oversight (Was: Just in case you're curious)
On Dec 27, 2003, at 7:39 PM, Santiago Gala wrote: Scalable because big groups of people can coordinate, even if they don't give specific input or they were not there while the decision was taken. OT: after some light holiday-time reading (Prey from Michael Crichton - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061015725/), it's funny to try and invent some parallels between open source software communities and the agent swarms outlined in his novel. Freaky. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: karma for jakarta-site
Dirk Verbeeck wrote: Could someone grant me karma to jakarta-site2? Commons-Pool DBCP will be released shortly and I need to update the download pages and publish a news item. Hi Dirk - such requests should actually be send to [EMAIL PROTECTED], preferably cc-ing the Jakarta PMC so that they know what is happening. In good faith, I added you to the avail file, so you should be all set. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another installment of the Jakarta bad imports page is out...
On 18/07/2003 17:54 Tom Copeland wrote: ...this time with colors! http://cvs.apache.org/~tcopeland/jakarta_bad_imports.htm The Cocoon module hosting the code we are currently working on is 'cocoon-2.1' - it might be that you checked out an older, static version. Thanks for these stats! /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vote for XMLBeans proposal
On 6/07/2003 16:56 Aleksander Slominski wrote: It seems that BEA folks are willing to solve all remaining problems and I think that it would be good if this project quickly gained more mementum and I am willing to help with it (even though I am not Apache XML commiter) This proposal is still lacking a better mix of BEA- and non-BEA committers, so it seems like your offer to help comes at a good time. ;-) FWIW: I would suggest XMLBeans to be incubated inside the XML project, although Jakarta would be equally fine as well. If Cliff is able to communicate BEA's preference, and the LGPL Piccolo issue is resolved, it seems like we're heading somewhere. Attracting new committers is easier when the project is already under incubation. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
On 4/07/2003 5:48 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of curiosity - does it have to be decided now? I guess not, if some actual people are willing to help XMLBeans out during incubation, setting up CVS, lists and all that, and monitor how they are doing - so that they can inform the eventually receiving PMC on the Apachiness of the incubating project. A clear sense direction might of course help, especially w.r.t. infrastructure - in a sense that CVS repos don't need to be moved, lists recreated and all that. Cfr. Lenya's incubation, which is still in progress, but already they have been made an integral part of the Cocoon project infrastructure. Less fuzz afterwards, and if incubation fails, deletion is still a no-brainer. If there is a general feeling from the two PMCs that they would be comfortable, then maybe we both sponsor into the incubator and give the committers time to migrate everything to Apache. Presumably in that time they are also getting used to Apache and can develop an understanding of where they feel their project fits best. Not jumping to any conclusion, I'm very happy to see a positive and constructive discussion happening. Thanks, all. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The vendors page
On 2/07/2003 11:13 Santiago Gala wrote: I would not say you employ, but just convince one jakarta commiter to make the change. This would ensure at least some level of communication (like sending it to the project -dev list and discussing it there, etc.) +1 on being present on the list and discussing things snip/ the project committers should be aware of them existing and supporting the project. Yep - so basically this should be decided on a subproject-level in Jakarta's case. I doubt *anyone* is able to support *all* Jakarta subprojects on a level that he/she serves his customers well. Suggestion: move this page away from the Jakarta main site, and stimulate subprojects to host their own vendor pages. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
On 10/06/2003 9:48 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: or MS (http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/workspaces/directory.aspx)? Or Sourceforge? Savannah? Diversity is what keeps Darwin's sledgehammer away, IMHO. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun copies Jakarta?
On 10/06/2003 13:38 Santiago Gala wrote: Now, how does this affect our ecosystem? *shrug* I for one have just filed our own open source xReporter project to be linked from java.net. I expect the requisite of having a _diverse_ community of developers doesn't exist over there, so it might be a nice, visible place to grow a community until it is ready for eventual contribution to the ASF. I'm pretty sure people will still think of apache.org as being the ultimate destination for a good OSS project. If java.net helps them to get there, why not? Some corporate codebase dumpings might also be expected over there, which is good since they won't come knock on our doors then. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 14:49 Erik Price wrote: I'm genuinely curious where to draw the line between the project and the business in this context. ... and I find your feelings to be strikingly similar to mine. After reading the poor White whitepaper, I find the JBoss development community to be quite feodal by design. If there's one guy to blame for that, it must be Marc, I reckon. But Andy tells me I'm wrong. Oh well. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 16:09 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: It was intended as something like one of Steven's community weather reports (which I wish he did more often). The more I go and check on the weather, the more I actually experience it and want to be part of it. So rather than being a neutral weather watcher, I'm becoming part of the wind itself. :-D /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 16:38 Conor MacNeill wrote: Yeah, prunes will do that. LOL! /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 9:47 Pier Fumagalli wrote: Going back and looking at the past 5 years, actually, I think that in this case, the guy from Sun actually has a point (Rudy? Who the hell is he?). Oddly enough in the J2EE/JBoss saga, I don't see Sun as being the bad guys (but ok, some of us and Mark go back A LONG time)... I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Still, looking at JBoss (the project), I pretty much fail to see what arguments of Rudy (the SunBE local marketing guy) would still be valid if anyone else would come and present JBoss (the project). Sun should be happy that people create cheap implementations of their APIs. If their own implementations would be any better, they might also be making money of them. ;) Cheers, /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 10:52 Ceki Gülcü wrote: I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. It is. And they will fail at it. Still, when daydreaming about JBoss, I happen to compare that community with ours. And I believe the testosteroid behaviour of its speaking puppet might be detrimental in the end. There's no black white and deliberation should be made. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 10:52 Pier Fumagalli wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... None. Hence my problem with JBoss when comparing with the ASF situation (which isn't flawless neither, however). I still do hope JBoss - the project- can attract non-JBG LLC-funded committers. Last week at NLUUG, there was a guy with no real liaison with JBoss (http://www.josvisser.nl/), who gave a perfectly enjoyable talk on JBoss - the project. In this particular case, I feel to see how Sun would not want JBoss - the project - being presented at a (large) Java users conference. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
On 3/04/2003 1:24 Roy T. Fielding wrote: Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members. I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above. http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html Thanks for clarifying this. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] SuperXMailer
On 1/04/2003 23:21 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: And we need to work on implementing a CMM process for opensource. The SDLC seems like an excellent way to do that. If we can get developers working along the SDLC, I think we could get a more repeatable development process. Far superior to standard opensource stuff! ;-) Would it help if someone makes this an out-of-the-blue business requirement or policy? This consensus-through-discussion stuff is really slowing us down. We should not 'stimulate' developers to work along SDLC, just fire them if they don't. You're a sissy, don't you know? /Catbert -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] SuperXMailer
On 2/04/2003 12:35 Danny Angus wrote: Better yet why don't we hand all our IT over to IBMGS then we don't ever need to ask for anything or fire anyone because IBMGS will do it all for us according to our IT policy which they will even kindly write for us. Dear sir, I'm not in the position to answer to your mail, since I'm bound to a set of NDAs, SLAs and various other TLAs with assorted SOPs. In case you really want me to look into your enquiry, please file a request-for-empathy ticket (we even had an external company create a webapp for this!) on our Global Presence e-X-tranet website, and it will be passed into oblivion through various layers of indirection, line and business management, and in any case will not fall onto my desk before the procedure for yearly renewal of the procedure for request-for-sympathy enquiry handling is being conducted by some real executive management consultant rather than these IBMGS wannabees. Respectfully yours, /Catbert -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org === Information in this email and any attachments are confidential, and may not be copied or used by anyone other than the addressee, nor disclosed to any third party without our permission. There is no intention to create any legally binding contract or other commitment through the use of this email. In case you've read this far, go see a shrink. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] SuperXMailer
On 1/04/2003 22:03 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: I'm pleased to finally propose the SuperXMailer for Jakarta via the incubator. :-D Nice one! /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Free java profiler tools for open source projects?
On 17/03/2003 9:36 Martin van den Bemt wrote: I started the thread :) I contacted several people at borland and forwarded my request to Borland and the request back from Borland to the jakarta pmc (never had a reply from the pmc). If you are interested I can forward the reply I got from Borland to you.. Sure, please do. If I can be of any assistance w.r.t. Amstelveen: just yell / geef maar een kreet ;-) /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Free java profiler tools for open source projects?
otisg wrote: That is the one. As good as it looks, it's Windows-only, I guess. Bummer. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Réf. : Re: cvs checkout on cvs.apache.org doesn't work ...?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't ping cvs.apache.org. Actually, I have to deal with an http proxy ( and I was'nt aware that cvs doesn't work with ) Is it possible to configure cvs to work with it ? have a look at http://cvsgrab.sourceforge.net/ /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. Yay! +1 Cluetrain might be the naive interpretation of that, but still it's a good way to deal with the so-called 'real-life' without becoming a cynic. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto
Conor MacNeill wrote: Steven, I think these are exactly the sort of questions incubator is designed to answer. Tapestry was about seeing how an existing project can come into Apache. Perhaps Pluto is an opportunity to understand how a new project can be created and encouraged at Apache. They are both interesting challenges for the incubator. I volunteered for being on the Pluto project team, if only for discussion and documentation. That way, I hope to be able to take care about my reservations, by making sure I'm right in the middle of it. It's good to see Carsten and Andy, too. That makes 3 of us who will make sure Pluto integrates with Cocoon. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: I would like to state my support and desire to be involved in the project. I do kinda think a project proposal might be premature since the specification isn't public yet. I was trying not to post the obvious, but yes: this seems largely premature. No code, a restricted community, too much committers coming from one company, I've seen better proposals being fought over lately. Also, possible future integration 'ideas' with some related projects would be comforting (Jetspeed, Tomcat, Struts/Tiles, and the Cocoon portal framework for a starter). /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto
Henri Yandell wrote: Is this not-invented-here-ism or maintaining scope? From my part: scope fairness. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto
Sam Ruby wrote: Steven Noels wrote: I was trying not to post the obvious, but yes: this seems largely premature. Deja vu. What else could one expect ;-) Check back next week for the inevitable complaint that Pluto is too mature. No code, a restricted community, too much committers coming from one company, I've seen better proposals being fought over lately. Code is forthcoming. Multiple existing Apache committers. Multiple distinct corporate contributors. In support of a standard (I'll leave that term undefined). Strongly related to an existing Jakarta subproject. That remains to be seen and is my major hesitance. Apache doing RIs is kewl in my book. Doing it out of the blue however (sorry for the pun) is another affair. I have talked to the person who submitted this proposal, both via notes and on the phone. I gave explicit guidance as to what questions to have answered in the original proposal, where to send it (general AND incubator, if you notice). To post the text on the web AND include it verbatim in the note. Etc. Sure, it was all by the book. I was lurking on JetSpeed when Thomas became interested in it, BTW. Have lost track since then, and don't know whether any sort of symbiosis between the (hidden) JSR community and Jetspeed community/code exists. These questions should be asked, and I'm not ashamed for standing up. Each in its own turn. I also gave warning that there is likely to be extended and lengthy discussion as to where this code should land instead of on the merits of the project itself... Hey! I'm also doing this by the book then!? :-) I can't resist a Jon'ism here: Thanks for volunteering! I'll interprete that as a Jon'ism. ;-) /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incubator home page (was Tapestry)
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Long ones are truncated. Smaller fonts + truncation looks like a solution for me, no? Like Jon has said, that left nav bar chewing 30+% of the page is a killer from a usability angle. Exactly why I made this other version. So, is it better? yep - with the a title=full name/ Rob suggested. I would cut off on 18 chars width. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Bounce messages triggering moderation request]
apmail at a.o should be contacted for such purposes.
/Steven
Original Message
Subject: Bounce messages triggering moderation request
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:06:04 -0500
From: Peter Royal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There is a bouncing user on the avalon-dev list and the bounce messages
are generating moderation requests.. Can someone with appropriate karma
remove [EMAIL PROTECTED] from the avalon-dev list? Thanks :)
-pete
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Subject: Returned Mail / Tagasisaadetud kiri!
Unfortunately, your message was not delivered.
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Kahjuks eiole võima lik teie kirja kohale saata.
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Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: I think the tradition of meritocracy is deeply rooted in our collective consciousness; I mean that of Apache. If you knock on the door of [EMAIL PROTECTED], I am sure you will be allowed in. Things do not necessarily become easier as a member, one still has to work on listening, understanding and persuasion, exactly the same way a a committed committer would. - thanks for the pointer, I already tried subscribing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] which obviously was the wrong address - subscribing/posting: from what I see, it looks like my subscription is waiting to be moderated - excellent - things being 'easier' when being a member: of course not, and I hope that wasn't the impression that I gave Send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see how you are received. Note the CC: to licensing@. Thanks for the invitation - I'll post my questions to the licensing list. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: The message I was trying to get across was that the firewall a.k.a. barrier between members and committers exists mostly in people's minds. Membership is not much more than a recognition of one's work plus a stamp of approval for being usually reasonable. Think of membership as even more positive karma in slashdot. From the Foundations perspective membership also entails responsibilities and obligations but that's a different topic. In people's mind is where thoughts come to fruition and actions are decided. It's just that I don't like it when a discussion gets cut off by someone using that imaginary firewall as a reason - even adding a redirect to some other place where it is deemed more appropriate for the discussion to be held. Oh well ;) /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: snip/ -- Ceki, expounding not accusing. Very nicely put. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: I never expected the ASF to falter and fold. However, I do expect the ASF to act reasonably which implies that it can explain/document its decisions. Feeling very patronized if I see such threads...: +1 /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Pier Fumagalli wrote: You're free to file your complaint to the appropriate department dealing with those kinds of issues: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Naaah. There's a difference between making a remark here when the opportunity is there, and starting another 'feeding the trolls' thread over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I now see that my remark has been duly noted, and I can only hope that it somehow penetrates the firewall between us and The Members. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Pier Fumagalli wrote: Current drafts of the 2.0 license include a solution to this issue, plus a whole bunch of other niceties. Discussions of the new license are happening on a mailing list dedicated to that purpose. Where is that mailing list? I believe it was avaliable _only_ to ASF members... Which is kinda strange since it is the license which _committers_ also need to abide... /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Should or must? :-) Let your yes be yes, no be no Should means should. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [DRAFT2] Jakarta Newsletter - June 2002
Rob Oxspring wrote: Please find attached the xdoc/html/txt versions of the the second draft (zipped). Rob, in the HTML version, your name is stated as being 'Oxsping'. Regards (nice work, BTW), /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Jon wrote: I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me. I can't stand XSL... I'm also a little worried about the size/vocality of the centipede developer community. Krysalis lists (in the archive) total 53 posts. Maven dev (includes cvs) has 780, and the user list 151. Lol...guess it is really fact now. Which basically boils down to let's just invent our own little language and try to get enough people bragging about it Come on, this isn't serious anymore. Sorry to say, but in the real world, there are more XSLT than dvsl users. Wasn't this entire thing about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to common standards? /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Jon wrote: Wasn't this entire thing about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to common standards? Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived by real world requirements). Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it. Granted: I use XSLT and am able to live with it. Nothing to be ashamed of, I guess. I've briefly looked into DVSL when Maven was gathering momentum, and it was not the kind of quantum-leap technology that would change my judgement on XSLT. My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely* because they prefer XSLT instead of DVSL. I'm perfectly happy when people don't like XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite counterproductive when projects are considered to be less 'cool' when they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions. I'm afraid I really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-) You know what? Java isn't open source, neither, and lots of academic work goes into that commercial language, too :-) Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven. /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Leo wrote: However, the implicit argument home-brewn solutions are worse than standards simply doesn't always hold true. It doesn't here. Both XSLT and DVSL are here at Apache, which, for me, is enough of a standard. Basically, all this is to point out masquerading of egotism as technical discussion. This is all very much unneccessary. I personally don't really care what build tool/platform becomes a standard at Apache. I also don't care about XSL vs DVSL. As long as it fills the use case (which every project at Jakarta and XML has), I'm happy. However, it would be __really nice__ to have some kind of internal apache standard. Sorry if my point came across as egotism: I just wanted to explain that XSLT has a large lively community, which means adopting XSLT can be considered a motivation for new people joining in. Or don't we want more helping hands..? /Steven ps: hey! Jon updated his page: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
Jon wrote: People -- Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar. Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped). Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu! :-) Cool. I like being funny :-) Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates! /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
Jon wrote: on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework Somehow I doubt that. -jon I will submit this thread as background material for my JSR proposal based upon the existing JSR-57: Long-Term Persistence for JavaBeans. I'll call mine JSR-666: Long-Term Perseverance in Inventing New Art Forms. Come on guys, let's get on with our lives. If destiny is upon us, we will meet in the end. If not, why spend more energy convincing each other of doin' the one right thing. Sure this world is big enough to have some opposing views. We don't want to digress into politics over here, don't we? /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: You guys are so funny.
Pedantic, I know, but here goes anyway: Leo wrote: Avalon currently uses cocoon (sort of an eat-your-own-dogfood case), and other developers would like this to stay that way. There is a tool(4) that does the same thing as the jakarta project, created by people from xml.apache. The tool does allow me to plug in this look, and it uses cocoon. (4) Centipede (4) Forrest Centipede uses Forrest for that, which uses Centipede as its build tool. So if anyone wants to blame a project for adopting XSLT, it's Forrest you need to target. Apart from that, your post deserves my entire blessing (FWIW), and I urge you to read http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-generalm=102031933515183w=2 in that respect. Why am I so obnoxious about all this? My commercial alter-ego (I did start up a company 6 months ago, hopefully I will now be respected as a grown-up ;-) wants to provide such an infrastructure to my customers, since they are going already through the pain of switching from Cobol to Java/XML and really need a solid project management/documentation/build environment to do some decent Java coding. /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Berin, How does that match up with the NIH attitude towards Krysalis? I wasn't aware of a Jakarta/XML project named cruise control.? Hey, this is a [EMAIL PROTECTED] discussion. For some strange and perhaps slightly biased reason, I'm not too surprised threads like these don't exist across the wall in [EMAIL PROTECTED] country. One wonders... testosteron? /Steven (ducking away, asbesto suit on) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Berin wrote: Translation: Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org XML = xml.apache.org And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is: everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede. I wouldn't say so - while I would like the idea. But if this is the kind of discussion necessary to convince others to use one's pet-project, I'd rather pass on the opportunity :-| Thanks for your Reality Check - this is effectively what we need right now. I'm under the impression that features, integration design are becoming less important than bigmouthing one another. OK - let's get back to business now :-) /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cross-project communications
Geir wrote: -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand, we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might shock them :) ouch - that hurts :-) /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cross-project communications
Good point. I for one am rather 'amused' in the difference of style *and* momentum in between both general@ lists and projects, and indeed there exists some partisanship that divides both. Duh. Oh well, part of the fun over here is exactly participating in this electronic biosphere while observing 'group dynamics'. Apparently, the XML style of doing things is a bit more conservative with regards to the creation of new subprojects, whereas Jakarta has a history of scratching itches fairly often, and subsubprojects being graduated to full-blown subprojects as a result of that. And both groups feel pretty proud of their realisations, which is natural, of course. Hence the heated discussions when overlap (and competition) comes into existence. * On a global level: Over the past few weeks, there was an avalanche of new project proposals on the Jakarta list, clearly some people start to believe ASF blessing of a project is a safehaven for community-poor projects. To the outside world, it isn't clear what the criteria are for new project proposals (and indead only Jakarta explicitely lists those at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html, a pity this hasn't done (to my knowledge) for the XML site as well, I keep on referring people to the Jakarta site). I believe rules for subproject and subsubproject creation should be clearly stated on an ASF-wide level. Global policies or email contacts that can give authorative answers to these issues are hard to discover for newbies (even though I'm following a lot of email lists for the past 2 or 3 years, I still consider myself to be a novice in this regard). To an outsider, both PMC's operate quite silently (I understand and appreciate them keeping a low profile and having a supportive instead of enforcing role), perhaps some joint statements on this matter could clarify this. IMO, one of the issues to be tackled is the creation of subsubprojects without some broader consensus (IMO!). Apart from that, some people, myself included, articulated the need for having a cross Apache list to discuss issues on commercial activities (like support and consulting) based on Apache projects, and after some private communications the common feeling was that we didn't really knew where to go with our ideas. So I am all +1 to discuss the need and eventually the setup of some cross-project communication platform, not just because of Java topics not being addressed as Santiago indicated, but because we are on the brink of deteriorating partisanship between both communities. We all depend on a spirit of rapid consensus and getting on with the work. If we create a forum where we can ventilate crossproject issues and also discuss/prepare project integration, the lists where the real work is carried out are freed from these email avalanches which sometimes leave a bad taste in one's mouth. * The Centipede/Maven/Gump 'case': I'm happy to see that the discussion is finally converging into a positive and hopefully productive atmosphere. The only remaining impression is that all of these projects have been build with a need for coherence in mind, whether that is coherence for building projects, managing dependencies or having a coherent website (The XML group has opted to create a subproject Forrest for the latter). Apart from the choosen solution, I believe presenting a coherent image of both the Jakarta and XML communities and projects is of vital importance for the uptake of our lovingly crafted goodies. We see a plethora of initiatives in this direction nowadays but as the recent heated discussion just has shown, it would have been better if both communities were aware of each other a bit sooner. As an aside from all this emotional stuff, on Forrest: our short term goal is to provide a facility to build and maintain a coherent xml.apache.org site. We're not in the business of dependency checking (Gump is), project/build frameworks (Maven and Centipede are) or XML web publishing (Cocoon is). By coincidence (and since we didn't know Maven existed, see my previous statements), we have choosen Centipede to bootstrap our project, and Cocoon as the publishing engine. I know Maven does similar stuff on a project-level (correct me if I'm wrong), but Forrest intends to go xml.apache.org-wide and is clearly website-focused. But as I said, this is just an aside for people wondering what all these strange new projects are about ;-) Just my 2 eurocent, /Steven -Original Message- From: Santiago Gala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: woensdag 1 mei 2002 20:06 To: Jakarta General List Subject: cross-project communications Berin Loritsch wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Translation: Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org XML = xml.apache.org And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is: everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede. Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. Gee we don't like
RE: Trademarks, copyright etc
Pier Fumagalli wrote: Alex McLintock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think there is any forum appropriate for that yet, and I can see that some people (such as Pier above) isn't so keen on discussing it on the existing mailing lists. :-) [...] I would be keen to see an @apache.org global list on that, with the support of some peeps from the legal department... (Ken, Dirk, and all those who know something about $$$ and £££)... If the PMC finds this appropriate, we might just ask it to members or board.. By all means: yes! /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: subproject layout conventions
Leo Simons wrote: It has been brought up by many people that there is no common way of organising subproject websites. I propose we draft a set of guidelines (_not_ rules) on a general structure. Lets start with some discussion :) All this and more is being tackled (slowly but steadily) in Forrest - and having some Jakarta people involved for cross-pollination would be good. There's not much yet except for the foundation and build environment and some static site generation, but you could familiarize yourself using http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-devr=1w=2 and http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml-forrest/ Regards, /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
the story continues... JSPA community draft ballot results
Sad, but true: http://jcp.org/jsr/results/99-7-1.jsp /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: the story continues... JSPA community draft ballot results
Pier Fumagalli wrote: I don't know how much sadness there is in that vote. Of course it's not a victory, but reading from the comments of the different voters (at the bottom), the issues we raised were listened to, and given some thought. Well, this is a vote prior to going public draft, so hopefully we are still able to raise even more attention and really get what we want. The comments of IBM and the like clearly indicate to me that the revised JSPA will be 'nirvana'. /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: the story continues... JSPA community draft ballot results
I wrote: The comments of IBM and the like clearly indicate to me that the revised JSPA will be 'nirvana'. ^^^ Uh-oh... 'not be nirvana', of course. Must go to bed ;-) /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
