Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus! No, it's not the best approach. The best way is call up an editor and say, I'd like to write an article for you about Cactus. Cactus is blah, will interest you readers because of blah, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code. Can I email you an outline? Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Cool! Suggestions? I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor himself. Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get more credibility there), but that is another story. Steve Downey wrote: On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus! No, it's not the best approach. The best way is call up an editor and say, I'd like to write an article for you about Cactus. Cactus is blah, will interest you readers because of blah, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code. Can I email you an outline? Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
I don't think I've ever NOT gotten a reply. It has been a few years since I've written, but I doubt things have changed that much. Getting enough decent technical material for a magazine is always a problem. Writing can be fixed by an editor, although it's better if it doesn't have to be fixed too much. Technical content can't be fixed by an editor. You do need to check that you're hitting the right person. The thing to do is to check the author's guidelines from the publication. It's usually a link on the main page of the website. I think JDJ has a web form for proposals, for example, so that they don't get lost in someones inbox. It can be a little bit of a problem, as a lot of the editors work virtually, and hand-off can be botched. As long as you're clear who you are, being a principal is not an issue. Think about it from the other side. Would you rather read an article about JUnit by Erich Gamma or John Doe? You should know more about POI than anyone, and are in a better position to write about how to use it than anyone. On Tuesday 22 October 2002 11:19 am, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Cool! Suggestions? I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor himself. Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get more credibility there), but that is another story. Steve Downey wrote: On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus! No, it's not the best approach. The best way is call up an editor and say, I'd like to write an article for you about Cactus. Cactus is blah, will interest you readers because of blah, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code. Can I email you an outline? Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
That's awesome information. Thank you for this! I got no reply from Javaworld or Dr. Dobbs, but I had not tried JDJ. I wrote Tony Stintes and got no reply, but I think this: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/javaqa/2002-05/01-qa-0503-excel3.html was sufficient reply. Somehow we managed to get coverage in some German professional journals, etc. But I'm not entirely sure why accidental marketing works so much better in countries where English is not the native language maybe they try harder to find things? Once again, thank you so much for this. It was very helpful to me! -Andy Steve Downey wrote: I don't think I've ever NOT gotten a reply. It has been a few years since I've written, but I doubt things have changed that much. Getting enough decent technical material for a magazine is always a problem. Writing can be fixed by an editor, although it's better if it doesn't have to be fixed too much. Technical content can't be fixed by an editor. You do need to check that you're hitting the right person. The thing to do is to check the author's guidelines from the publication. It's usually a link on the main page of the website. I think JDJ has a web form for proposals, for example, so that they don't get lost in someones inbox. It can be a little bit of a problem, as a lot of the editors work virtually, and hand-off can be botched. As long as you're clear who you are, being a principal is not an issue. Think about it from the other side. Would you rather read an article about JUnit by Erich Gamma or John Doe? You should know more about POI than anyone, and are in a better position to write about how to use it than anyone. On Tuesday 22 October 2002 11:19 am, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Cool! Suggestions? I have never actually gotten a reply from an editor himself. Of course for project validty, it may be better to have a non-prinicipal contribute (if I write about POI it will not likely be viewed as objective but someone who has written about other APIs will probably get more credibility there), but that is another story. Steve Downey wrote: On Sunday 20 October 2002 02:03 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus! No, it's not the best approach. The best way is call up an editor and say, I'd like to write an article for you about Cactus. Cactus is blah, will interest you readers because of blah, and the article will be about N words long, not counting source code. Can I email you an outline? Editors have the incredibly difficult job of keeping the covers of the magazine apart. They desparately need articles. They can't pay as much as would seem fair, but enough to buy decent toys. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Hi Andrew, -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver;apache.org] Sent: 20 October 2002 16:09 To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta marketing. Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all... Where I work, lots of people talk about maybe we should use cactus, and heck there are those who use all sorts of things from the Java Developers Journal that they have insufficient knowledge and experience to carry off. (Yes you can write an object cache... But why would you, and why would you do it in your stateless session beans)... But cactus is a well kept secret. Its one that gets whispered often. From my limited experience, marketing (ugh!) is just as important as anything else to increase your community size. Interesting... However, I do believe the opposite (and maybe I am wrong)! I believe Cactus is victim of its success ... rather than it's lack of ... If you check the cactus stats (http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a niche project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit testing). Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started using awstats (http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history). Cactus is well advertised and easy to find (junit, google, a book with Cactus in the title, several others having a chapter on Cactus, several articles on the web, reviews in magazines, a book in progress I am writing, etc). I completely agree with you on marketing which is why I have worked on that since day one of Cactus ... I may not be doing enough of it (who does?) but it already takes all my night time work ... ;-) That said, I only wish to learn and I would love to know some more tricks from you! Thanks -Vincent -Andy On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 10:23, Vincent Massol wrote: -Original Message- From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship;attbi.com] Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36 To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing the community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary. Everything is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate decision, preferably agreeing with it. I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really get started. The problem is, developers are too happy, I think. The framework does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there hasn't been a need to get involved. A move to Jakarta will *force* a few people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by the rules, nothing will actually happen. I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe there are 2 possible reasons: 1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a niche and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite wrongly I can assure you ... :-)) 2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have tried to work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML, quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do not participate because it works and the projects moves forward by itself (so it seems ;-)). So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change point 2/ (which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if you have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-) Thanks -Vincent PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-) - Original Message - From: Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote: Benevolent dictatorship. Probably should have expanded on this. Without a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't. Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to Apache but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO. It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache. -- Cheers, Peter Donald
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize. Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-) My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email. Saying to someone: you have failed to provide ... is not a very nice thing to say. Saying, maybe you should try to work more on the marketing side is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was too strong ;-) Ahh... word connotation. I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the right way of saying things in email. I'm told I'm abrasive in email, but not in person. The funny thing is I say the same things... They just come off differently. Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of voice... (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions) Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team could do? Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus! Some people do the JUG tour. You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus. That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe documentation need to be improved? No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-) If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't look too bad. FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc) which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the users - the entry barrier). Ahh. i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or). The biggest turnoff for me was this: This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about other browsers. IE doesn't work well under Linux. Plus I like mozilla better and even use it when I have to use Winblows. -Andy Thanks -Vincent -Andy -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
-Original Message- From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard;generationjava.com] Sent: 20 October 2002 20:36 To: Jakarta General List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta) On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote: Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team could do? Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of Cactus through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's no real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is Java, I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but I don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs from httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components]. Hehe ... I think you may have nailed the exact problem! Even your last sentence is not completely correct which proves your point (although it is written on the web site!)... ;-) It's about *unit* testing java server-side components (although at the moment it is more restricted to unit testing J2EE components but that's not the only goal). And it's about doing it in-container (inside the container). Would In-container Unit Testing or Integration Unit Testing be a nice meme? I think the problem also comes from the fact that unit tests are still relatively new. And what Cactus is doing is even newer. Thus there is not yet any global knowledge of what IUT is about ... Cactus was built to explore this road and is indeed a precursor ;-) So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of Cactus, there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the level of effort to use etc. Yes, you are right. Everything is described on the web site (included comparisons with other strategies), etc. BUT the problem is that you have to read it first ... In that sense, Andrew was right. There is a need to do a lot of evangelization on the concept of IUT so that it enters our global mind. [adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure there are many out there. ] That would be nice ;-) Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay, but not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :) I think you are completely right :-) In addition the concept may need to be expanded a bit as it may be too restrictive. Here are some ideas for the future: - runtime unit testing (possibly using AOP) - stress unit testing (Thus more like tools like Introscope but at a much more agile level.) It would still be In-Container Unit Testing (ICUT or IUT), though... Hen -Vincent -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote: Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team could do? Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of Cactus through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's no real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is Java, I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but I don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs from httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components]. So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of Cactus, there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the level of effort to use etc. [adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure there are many out there. ] Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay, but not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :) Hen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
-Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver;apache.org] Sent: 20 October 2002 18:32 To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta) Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta marketing. Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all... I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize. Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-) My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email. Saying to someone: you have failed to provide ... is not a very nice thing to say. Saying, maybe you should try to work more on the marketing side is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was too strong ;-) Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team could do? You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus. That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe documentation need to be improved? FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc) which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the users - the entry barrier). Thanks -Vincent -Andy -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
-Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver;apache.org] Sent: 20 October 2002 19:03 To: Vincent Massol Cc: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta) I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize. Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-) My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email. Saying to someone: you have failed to provide ... is not a very nice thing to say. Saying, maybe you should try to work more on the marketing side is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was too strong ;-) Ahh... word connotation. I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the right way of saying things in email. I'm told I'm abrasive in email, but not in person. The funny thing is I say the same things... They just come off differently. Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of voice... (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions) Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team could do? Release more often, announce the releases. While you may have had articles published, I've never actually seen one. (I've seen them on Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts). I found the best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they haven't covered it. Find and article on say JUnit and write the author but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus! Some people do the JUG tour. The discussion I had started was not about how to grow Cactus user base. We are very happy with that (well beyond my expectations actually and progressing steadily) but more on how to grow the committer's base. Of course growing the number of people who knows about Cactus may have an effect on the number of committers but I am not so sure about that (that's not my observations so far). My belief is that Cactus is too much viewed as a finished product: - it works - it has nice documentation - it has a nice build process - it has a quite responsive mailing list (a bit less lately as I have slightly less time with Maven/other stuff and I'm trying to see if others jump in when I don't answer 30 seconds after the question has been posted ;-). It seems to be working! I have the feeling Cactus is getting more ML participation ...). - steady releases (9 versions/releases in 16 months, 1 stable releases/4 months). It is indeed a finished product but there are still so many interesting things to do to make it even way better ... ;-) (documented on the todo/goal page). You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus. That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe documentation need to be improved? No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-) If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't look too bad. It isn't but needs reorganization to prevent misreadings like the one you mention below ... :-) FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc) which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the users - the entry barrier). Ahh. i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or). Let's not go there... Ok just a little then... Personally I don't want compilation, which Eclipse gives me ;-) (I'm talking about dynamic compilation). I want to know right away the result of a change I make to a class across all my project, I want to know right away if I've broken any coding convention as I type (using checkstyle for example), I want to know the code impacted by my Aspects (AOP/AspectJ), if I make a change deep in the directory structure, I want it to be surfaced so that I know what is not committed, etc. If you can resist, try not to answer this as it will lead to another OT thread ;-) (you've started!). The biggest turnoff for me was this: This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about other browsers. IE doesn't work well under Linux. Plus I like mozilla better and even use it when I have to use Winblows. Do you want to participate? Feel free to send a patch to perform XSLT transformation on the server side! More seriously, this is not a Cactus feature, it's a browser feature. The document was pointing out that without modifying
Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
If you check the cactus stats (http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a niche project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit testing). Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started using awstats (http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history). Thank you for mentioning that stats package as a sidenote. Thinking of using it for a project now instead of analog/report magic. With Cactus, my impression is that a sizable number of developers know about it, are interested in it, think it is a good idea, but are too 'busy' in their day jobs to use unit testing, or more complex server-side unit testing. And for those who have pet projects, those projects are usually small enough that the benefits of setting up test cases in the mind are outweighed by adding another feature. You mentioned later in this thread what I believe is a key point. You are doing something new and the public/users/possible committers need to learn to adopt unit testing and then 'IUT'. And while people are thinking about it, they will browse the page, and even download a copy. But until they use it for a project and see the advantages its adoption/attraction to developers may be slow. I think the documentation and polish helps find developers more than hurts, IUT is just ahead of their needs though it doesn't need to be. It reminds me of how digital video records have been slow to take off. But their time is coming one way or another. -- Ellis Teer www.sitepen.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)
Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta marketing. Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all... I'm sorry to have insulted you. I was only trying to help. Based on what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd observed. If my observations were incorrect I apologize. -Andy -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in Java http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project structure a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:general-help;jakarta.apache.org
