Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/4/02 4:20 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't even comparable, are they? Of course not. No, I agree, I was just teasing :) http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/ When DVSL is integrated into Turbine's presentation layer and people are using it, the comparison will definitely be Cocoon2 vs. Turbine. Uh, cool, let me take a look... -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Ted Husted wrote: What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once. I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other things, I'm sure. Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like this ... Stefano, I and others are working on this. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-generalm=100857962129228w=2 http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/ - Sam Ruby P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
At 11:34 04.01.2002 -0500, you wrote: Ted Husted wrote: What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once. I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other things, I'm sure. Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like this ... Stefano, I and others are working on this. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-generalm=100857962129228w=2 http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/ - Sam Ruby P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged XML+Jakarta? How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII? How about all the C++ projects in XML land? When do you think ApacheGrabBag/SourceForgeII and the httpd projects could be merged? Seriously, I think the idea is worth our consideration. Regards, Ceki -- Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Sam Ruby wrote: P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? The thing with XML is that core products like Xerces are cross-platform. I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation Jakarta != Java Thinking about it more carefully, I would venture to say that POI (along with Battick, FOP, and Xang) may belong under Jakarta. But I'm not sure that we want to say that Jakarta != Java or XML==Java. I do think it might be helpful to drop the server stipulation from the Jakarta charter. I realized that we are all born of the HTTPD Apache server, but I think the ASF is growing past that. Jakarta should be about the development of open source products on the Java platform. And the ASF should be about promoting meritocratic development, regardless of what it has any ties to the Apache HTTPD. This coincides nicely with the other ASF projects, which are also based around given languages, like PHP. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
I am 100% for that. Even because: - How server specific is Ant? - And BCEL? - And Log4J? - And ORO? - And Regexp? - And Xerces? - And commons collections, DBCP, Beanutils... And I could push it a bit more. Of course that they are useful to build server stuff... as they could be useful to build client stuff, which is exactly what happens with POI! I think the QUALITY distinction is much more important than the server issue and that should probably be formalized. For me the important arguments being presented are those going on between Stefano and Jon - if there is enough commitment and support for it. (IMO Stefano record looks great. It only makes it better that he knows how and to whom to delegate responsibilities.) Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:14 PM Sam Ruby wrote: P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? The thing with XML is that core products like Xerces are cross-platform. I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation Jakarta != Java Thinking about it more carefully, I would venture to say that POI (along with Battick, FOP, and Xang) may belong under Jakarta. But I'm not sure that we want to say that Jakarta != Java or XML==Java. I do think it might be helpful to drop the server stipulation from the Jakarta charter. I realized that we are all born of the HTTPD Apache server, but I think the ASF is growing past that. Jakarta should be about the development of open source products on the Java platform. And the ASF should be about promoting meritocratic development, regardless of what it has any ties to the Apache HTTPD. This coincides nicely with the other ASF projects, which are also based around given languages, like PHP. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Hi, At 11:34 04.01.2002 -0500, you wrote: Ted Husted wrote: What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once. I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other things, I'm sure. Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like this ... Stefano, I and others are working on this. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-generalm=100857962129228w=2 http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/ - Sam Ruby P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged XML+Jakarta? How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII? How about all the C++ projects in XML land? When do you think ApacheGrabBag/SourceForgeII and the httpd projects could be merged? Seriously, I think the idea is worth our consideration. Regards, Ceki No, I wouldn't merge. Leave the URLs as are, take the Forrest design and change the color ;-)! Gerhard In the beginning there was nothing... then even *that* exploded! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Ted Husted wrote: I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation Jakarta != Java http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk/native/common/ http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/src/main/org/apache/tools/ant/taskdefs/optional/dotnet/ Thinking about it more carefully, ... That was the real point of this exercise. ;-) - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Ceki Gülcü wrote: +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged XML+Jakarta? The more important question is what is the community model. As the XML bylaws are clones of the Jakarta ones, I would venture to say that they are fairly compatible. How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII? Jakarta. [Note: answer above is merely to show that the proposal is not a serious one] One thing I would like people to think about. I see viceral reaction at times to putting things in commons. Or in Avalon/Turbine/Struts, etc. And often there is lengthy debates about whether something belongs in Jakarta or not. Yet, curiously, there seems to be little consideration as to whether something belongs in Apache or not. How many people here know what the Apache board does? Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would propose it to be a formal subproject. At the present time, it looks like there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML land. This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community. After all, what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or xml-whatever? - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote: - Sam Ruby P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot. Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we? +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. Agreed that it's definitely worth looking at. However, you realize there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the merged web-site. Sheesh ... just when I was starting to think that *nothing* could top the rancor of arguing about coding conventions ... :-) Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] One thing I would like people to think about. I see viceral reaction at times to putting things in commons. Or in Avalon/Turbine/Struts, etc. And often there is lengthy debates about whether something belongs in Jakarta or not. Yet, curiously, there seems to be little consideration as to whether something belongs in Apache or not. Agreed. How many people here know what the Apache board does? :) Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would propose it to be a formal subproject. At the present time, it looks like there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML land. This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community. After all, what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or xml-whatever? You should *always* follow the community. The community gives life to the codebase. Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Sam Ruby wrote: The more important question is what is the community model. As the XML bylaws are clones of the Jakarta ones, I would venture to say that they are fairly compatible. What about TCL then? I wouldn't actually care if there is one umbrella project or six. But it seemed like the ASF was trying to organize things along platform lines. Should we think about merging with PHP too? Should there actually be umbrella Apache Projects at all? Maybe having proved ourselves, perhaps each product should now stand on its own, as the HTTP Server does. And there would be one PMC for them all. Again, don't care. Just asking. How many people here know what the Apache board does? I used to read the minutes, but they've gotten hard to find. Perhaps they should be posted to the Committer list. Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would propose it to be a formal subproject. At the present time, it looks like there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML land. This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community. After all, what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or xml-whatever? Perhaps if it were over here, then there would be more cross-pollination between projects. Likewise with having things like POI in XML land, that Jartian products might use. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Building Java web applications with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
Hi skip/ Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would propose it to be a formal subproject. At the present time, it looks like there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML land. This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community. After all, what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or xml-whatever? Yep it matters because that's mixing of concerns. As an Avalon Committer I only say three words: Separation of Concerns :-)! Beside there is lot of inoffical co-operation. Look at Cocoon and Avalon. Devs in this project are working close together in technical issues though the project aim is completly different. I think you should leave the current diversification. Otherwise I see the danger that the xml-apache group is forced completely towards Java. But that's not the aim of XML! And when we soften Jakarta so that C++ (personally nothing against C) servers could be possible as subprojects or whatever then we even could put everything under www.apache.org and in one mailing list ;)! I know it's hard for us, but try to think as a guy from a entprise sales group ;-). Just thoughts! Gerhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
On 1/4/02 12:39 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would propose it to be a formal subproject. At the present time, it looks like there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML land. This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community. After all, what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or xml-whatever? Funny. I've been waiting for it to become a top level project (or at least an Alexandrai project :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting You're going to end up getting pissed at your software anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:34, Sam Ruby wrote: Ted Husted wrote: What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once. I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other things, I'm sure. Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like this ... Stefano, I and others are working on this. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-generalm=100857962129228w=2 http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/ woohooo P.S. Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml and Jakarta? +1 -- Cheers, Pete Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, and a dark side, and it binds the universe together ... -- Carl Zwanzig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]
on 1/4/02 4:20 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They aren't even comparable, are they? Of course not. http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/ When DVSL is integrated into Turbine's presentation layer and people are using it, the comparison will definitely be Cocoon2 vs. Turbine. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
